1 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:09,399 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel 2 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: one two. Profecial needs five year old Volucia County boy 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: could not walk or talk and weighed less than twenty 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: five pounds. Police say. The boy stepfather denied any wrongdoing 5 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: and claimed that he was a good father. Police say 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: he added that he came from a rich family and 7 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: the other two children living there that were his were 8 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: well taken care of. What his most troubling is that 9 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: there was another adult in the home and who did 10 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: nothing for this for this little boy. A Florida couple 11 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: accused of neglecting a five year old little boy. And 12 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: you know what, when you say it like that, it's 13 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: really putting perfume on the pig. Neglecting. That doesn't really 14 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: say what happened. According to the Department of Children Family Services, 15 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: when invest sigators arrived at the home, there's a five 16 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: year old boy lying in the floor. He weighs less 17 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:13,559 Speaker 1: than twenty five pounds when my son was five years old. 18 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: Of course, he's a little horse, But when my son 19 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: was five years old, he already weighed like pounds. For 20 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: Pete's sake, he weighs twenty five right now and he's nine. 21 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: This child, a five year old boy, weighs less than 22 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: twenty five pounds. He's lying in the floor attempting to 23 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: eat cereal scraps off a filthy carpet. A five year 24 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: old boy weighs less than twenty five pounds and he's 25 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: crawling on the floor trying to get cereal scraps someone 26 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: else left dropped off of a filthy carpet. The little 27 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: boy's hands and feet were orange and he had peeling 28 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: skin and blisters on his hands and feet. When asked, 29 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: the stepfather said, he's not my responsibility. I'm not his 30 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: real father. I come from a rich family. Okay, how 31 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: far under the jail can I put this guy and 32 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: this child's mother. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories 33 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: and I want to thank you for being with us today, 34 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: day one of our launch on Serious x M Triumph 35 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: one thirty two. Thanks everybody for being with us. I 36 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: can't tell you how thrilled our team is to join 37 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: the all star lineup at Serious x M. Oh. Yes, 38 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: we will continue to fight crime. We are all about 39 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: breaking news, finding missing people, especially children, and shining a 40 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: light on crime, heating up cold cases, solving unsolved homicides 41 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: and arming you with information to help us stop crime. 42 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: You know why, because I believe we can make a 43 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: difference in our world. And you know what, I'm gonna 44 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: start with this little boy on the carpet eating cereal, 45 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: a serial scrap with me, my producer, the Duke, Alan 46 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: Duke joining me out of l A. And today's special guest, 47 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: a veteran defense attorney, Brian Claypool joining us from his 48 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: posh l A Law Offices, Brian Claypool at Claypool Law 49 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: Firm dot com. You've been around the block a couple 50 00:03:55,440 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: of times. Give me one good reason this father and 51 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: mother should not go to jail and stay there pounds 52 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: scraps of sereal. Brian, you're the defense lawyer. Let's hear it. Hey, Nancy, 53 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: thrilled to be with you on your inaugural serious radio launch. 54 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: It's an honor to be with you. And of course 55 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 1: you know when I'm on with you, we're we're always 56 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: at odds, and it's it's one thing to don't try 57 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: to butter me up by saying how honored you are 58 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: to be here. Let's just jump right into the facts. Okay, 59 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: go ahead, fair enough. It's one thing to think that 60 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: somebody is guilty of a crime, in this instance, child neglect, 61 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: child endangerment, child abuse, but it's vastly different to actually 62 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: prove those crimes beyond a reasonable doubt in a court 63 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: of law. What I mean by that is, there's a 64 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: couple of facts that are missing in this tragic situation. 65 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: Number one, well, a couple of Is there a past 66 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: record of of the Department of Children and Family Services 67 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: being called over to the home? Is there a history 68 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: of mcglat Claypole. I really appreciate that, and I know 69 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: that you do your very best and you win a 70 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: lot of cases, Brian Claypool. But that's just like saying 71 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: Scott Peterson never murdered any other wife. There's always the 72 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: first time, and these two didn't in spectacular fashion. You 73 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: never know down the road you might need help for me, 74 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: So don't from me toss me under the bus. I 75 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: think I'm on your speed dial. Is your criminal defense lawyers, 76 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: don't toss me under the bus so quickly. The second fact, okay, 77 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: you're not immune from trouble. Please just give me some 78 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: kind of a defense here. I mean the fact that 79 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: he's never been caught before doesn't make me feel any better. 80 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: The second most important fact and and and hear me 81 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: out on this, There has to be a medical examination 82 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 1: of this child done to determine, for example, it was 83 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: there a pre existing medical condition. You've mentioned yellow, yellow 84 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: color on the hand. Let's let's find out. Okay, go ahead, 85 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 1: I'm listening. Let's find out whether there is some kind 86 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: of medical condition that might have pre existed. This this 87 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: big global assumption that everybody's making that these these parents 88 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: were starving this child. So I think that's important. Well, 89 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: he weighed less than twenty five pounds from a medical condition, right, 90 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: and crawling on the floor trying to eat cereal scraps. 91 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but I assume you have 92 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: a table and chairs at your house where your family 93 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,799 Speaker 1: sits and eats instead of crawling on the carpet eating 94 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: off filthy carpet. And another thing, now that you've got 95 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: me started up, Brian Claypole, the other thing is is 96 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: the child had never had any form of education. No 97 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: one had even taught him to speak to communicate. It's 98 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: like an animal that how do you know that? Because 99 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: that's in the that's in the police report. That's how 100 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: I know it. The police said, so Nancy, Nancy, come on, 101 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: you're too smart for they don't fall for this trap. 102 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: Don't fall for the police report. Okay, let me just 103 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: give me a second, Brian, give me a second. Let 104 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,679 Speaker 1: me write all this down. A they never killed anybody before. 105 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: Be possible pre existing medical conditions. See hey, what's wrong 106 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: with eating on the floor even though I don't do it? 107 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: And what was the last one? Don't know? The police 108 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: are lying? Okay, go ahead, well no, and and and 109 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: indeed the police aren't camping out at this residence to 110 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: be able to verify that these these parents are not 111 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: teaching the child and e there could be some kind 112 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: of learning disability of this child that we don't even 113 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: know about that goes goes hand to hand with the 114 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: need here to do some type of medical and mental 115 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: health exam or don't worry about that. He's in the 116 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: hospital right now where they're trying to save him from 117 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: from mal nourishment. He's in the intensive care unit and 118 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: he's getting physical and speech therapy. Now what I don't like, 119 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: Alan Duke, is the judge actually allowed the mother to 120 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: visit him and the hospital. According to w f TV. 121 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: Why should she get to visit him in the hospital 122 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: when she's letting this happen. Well, she is out of 123 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: jail and she her husband. Don't rub it in she 124 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: she is out of jail. In fact, she visited the 125 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: court when her husband was brought into court very recently. 126 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: They are losing the other two children. Apparently there is 127 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 1: a hearing coming up on the other two children. Those 128 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: are his children, the one that we're in perfectly good health. 129 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 1: We do know they have Brian Claypool to address your 130 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: legitimate point. I do know the little boy has been treated. 131 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: He is and this is the diagnosis from the doctors, 132 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: unless you would like to tell me they're lying to 133 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: this little boy is clinically male nourished. He has not 134 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: been fed, according to the doctors. The mother, Naomi Hall, 135 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: was arrested on child neglect and causing great harm, and 136 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: as Alan pointed out, she's walked free on thirty five 137 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: thousand dollar bill. Now, Alan, you know what thirty five 138 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: grand means. That means three thousand, five hundred. You only 139 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: have to put down ten percent to get Hawker car 140 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: and get out, or we're have a house worth thirty 141 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: five thousand dollars that you can put a property bond 142 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: on right now. The dad, Brian Hall, told cops he 143 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: would not take a day off from work at Appleby's 144 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: restaurant where he works to get medical care for the child. 145 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: He made that statement that he would not take a 146 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: day off of work to take the boy to the hospital. Quote, 147 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: He's not my responsibility. I'm not his father. I come 148 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: from a rich white family. M m hm uh, Brian, 149 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: here's where you can jump in and defend him. Nancy, Yeah, 150 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: sure that, Nancy. Look it, being dumb was a felony. 151 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: This guy would be in jail at being a slammer 152 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: for twenty years. But unfortunately, in this case, his lack 153 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: of prudence and lack of common sense is not a crime. 154 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: And the second part of it is, which which is 155 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: intriguing in this case, is does in a non natural 156 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: parent of a child have a legal duty uh to 157 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: be doing everything that you're talking about that where assuming 158 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: went wrong here, for example, failing defeed a child, failing 159 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: to educate a child. My argument would be, and it's 160 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: an uncomfortable argument because I'm a child advocate too, But 161 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: let's let's let's let's undress the legal issues here. I 162 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: don't believe he has the legal duty here to ensure 163 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: that this this this uh, this child's safety is is 164 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: is secure. I think that rests with the mom. When 165 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: you agree because he's a stepfather, now hold on less example, 166 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: that is an argument. And let me tell you something. 167 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: When I would go into court every day, I not 168 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: only had to prepare my case, but I had to 169 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: anticipate what the defense was going to say and be 170 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: ready to shoot it down like a laser. Okay, Alan, 171 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 1: what are those um, we're preparing them right now there. 172 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: And it all started under Reagan, as I recall the 173 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: idea that you could shoot down an incoming missile. That's 174 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: what you've got to do in court. And what Brian 175 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: Claypool has just said, it's an argument, not that I 176 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: believe it. Of course that could be made in court, 177 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: so the state's got to be ready. His argument, among 178 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: many of them, is this is not the guys, This 179 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: is not the little boys natural father, so he had 180 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: no duty to make sure the child lived. He's a stepfather. 181 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: Let's look at that. Legally, the father, the stepfather is 182 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: legally married to the mother. This is her biological child. 183 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: They are living together and have been in a legal marriage. 184 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: So in my mind, to my knowledge of the law, 185 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: he cannot stand by and let the child starve. The 186 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: child has never been in school, has never had any 187 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: type of education at all. The child right now is 188 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,599 Speaker 1: near death. I don't know that the little boy is 189 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: going to live. I think it's a pretty weak leg 190 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: to stand on to say I'm just his stepfather and 191 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: therefore I have no duty. In fact, that is what 192 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: he said, he's not my kid gets back. It gets 193 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: back to my point that I said at the onset, 194 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: which is when you look at something on the surface, 195 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: sounds bad, bad, smells bad. But that that that's not enough. 196 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: That's not evidence to convict somebody here. And the lack 197 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 1: of evidence here is doing no whether for example, the 198 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: this this, this this Brian gentleman adopted. Now I don't 199 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: think he was ever adopted, but I don't know that. 200 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: But when you take on a duty, you go in 201 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: as the parent, and you live in the home, and 202 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: you're married to the mother. I mean, to me, the mother. 203 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: I can't believe she even got on. But that that's 204 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: not the end. I want to go to our next story, 205 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: and I'm going to keep an eye. I'm just praying 206 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: to God the little boy doesn't die. Allen and another, 207 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: I'm very disturbed about this. A convicted child molester moves 208 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: right next door to his child sex attack victim. I'm 209 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: just I'm stunned. And not only that that's bad enough, 210 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 1: but an Oklahoma judge, let's it happen. Now here's what 211 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: the judge said. The judge says some craziness like now, 212 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: under the law, current Oklahoma statute prevents sex offenders from 213 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: living within two thousand feet of a school, a daycare center, 214 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: or a park. But the law says nothing about the 215 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: actual victim. Now, see the way I would have interpreted that, 216 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: Brian Claypool is if the law says you can't live 217 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: two thousand feet from a school, or a daycare or 218 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: a park, then you certainly can't live two thousand feet 219 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: from your victim, the child you molested and went to 220 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: jail over instead. The Oklahoma judge says, since they didn't 221 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: mention the victim, I guess you can live there. What well, 222 00:14:55,760 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: I think the problem here is the legislature in Oklahoma. 223 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: Are they sing on the job? Yeah? I have to 224 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: agree with you on that. What kind of what kind 225 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: of copwater are they drinking and open? I don't know 226 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: what's going on. I don't know what's going on with 227 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: that is not cleared up. And I gotta tell you, Brian, 228 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: I have dealt with so many child molestation victims, so 229 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: many rape victims. Let me tell you something. When this 230 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: happens to you as a child, you never ever get 231 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: over it the rest of your life. You're left feeling 232 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: so helpless, so powerlessness, I mean so powerless. Nobody helped you. 233 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: This happened to you, It happened repeatedly, and they feel 234 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: humiliation and shame. It can ruin the rest of your life. 235 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: You can never get beyond what happened to your child. Yes, 236 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: can I counter that? And can hear me on on 237 00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: this for a second? To be Devil's advocate, because I 238 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: represent and in fact, I was one of the lead 239 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: lawyers on the largest child sexual abuse case and against 240 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: direct country, the Mirror Montee child abuse case that occurred 241 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: against the we we litigated four years against the Los 242 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: Angeles Unified School District. And I will tell you that 243 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: an argument can be made to the contrary to which 244 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: is in some instances which when children are abused when 245 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: they confront the abuser. But like, for example, the argument 246 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: here as well, this this girl that is next door 247 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: to this this predator now and she's going to be 248 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: retraumatized when she sees him. That's one argument. But a 249 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: counter of that is some of these kids not seen it. 250 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: When they actually confront or seed being the molester, they 251 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: can actually help them move along in their mental health progress. 252 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: It can actually uh when you have to look at 253 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: your molester, it helps you. This is going down in Bristow, Oklahoma, 254 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: and it is a case that has caused outrage in 255 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: an Oklahoma community, as it should, and the state leaders 256 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: should be ashamed of themselves. Now to their defense, this 257 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: was a little known loophole in the law. And I 258 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: get nervous whenever I have to say the word loophole 259 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: because I know something bad's about to happen. The girl says, 260 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: he's right there, practically in my back yard. It makes 261 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: me not want to go home ever, she says. The 262 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: purp Harold English, has just been released from prison, after 263 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: convict after conviction. This is not a charge. This is 264 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 1: a conviction of molesting her when she was a little girl, 265 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: she said, And according to her parents. She hoped she 266 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 1: could move on. No one ever believed he could move 267 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: in next door, literally just over the fence. Oklahoma has 268 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: got to change the law, and I'm shocked that an 269 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: Oklahoma judge went along with this. He did, however, take 270 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: some steps to help. He issued a thousand the protective 271 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: order for the family. I mean, I'm just overwhelming about 272 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: what this girl is going to have to go through. 273 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: He did do that. Then the judge in effect almost 274 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: kind of legislate himself pending. I believe there's a session 275 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 1: that's going to come up in Uh. It's kind of 276 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: kind of odd, though, that the Oklahoma legislator is gonna wait, 277 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 1: I think another several months before they even tackled this issue. 278 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: But I think the judge kind of legislated himself. You 279 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: know what's interesting that you just said, Brian, I'm just 280 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 1: wondering what does it take to have an emergency session? 281 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: How many people does it take to correct the law? Um? Anyway, 282 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 1: this is what I know that's happening in Oklahoma right now. 283 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 1: Outrage after a child molester literally moves next door to 284 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: the victim. 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You will 308 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: love how it feels to get the great taste to 309 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: create the incredible home cooked meal with Blue Apron. Don't wait, 310 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: it's blue Apron dot com slash Nancy Grace. Blue Apron 311 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 1: is a better way to cook. Thank you Blue Apron 312 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: for joining us on crime Stories with us today and 313 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: our very first serious x M radio program is Mark Class. 314 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: Mark Class has been in my life from many many 315 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: years and has been an inspiration to me. At times 316 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: when I thought I could not go on and continue 317 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: the fight against crime, I think of Mark Class. Mark 318 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: Class has been a victim's rights champion since his daughter 319 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: Polly was taken, taken out of her home and killed. 320 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: He has been the goal standard for victims across this 321 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: country for many years. Mark. Before I get to the 322 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: issue today, which is a little boy missing, I want 323 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: to ask you how it is that you keep going. 324 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: You know, people say what's your secret? I don't really 325 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,239 Speaker 1: know what my secret is, but could you how do 326 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: you keep going? How do you get beyond losing Polly 327 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: to continue the fight every single day? I don't know 328 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: how you do it? Well, you have to Nancy, and 329 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: first of all, thank you for all the very kind words, 330 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: but one really has to I surround myself with memories 331 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: of Polly Um. I have my faith, I have my 332 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 1: beautiful whe Violet, my family that encourage me and that 333 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: support me, and I allow the anger that has driven 334 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: me for so many decades now to to stay at 335 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: the top to remind me that horrible things that happened 336 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: to wonderful people, and that it doesn't have to be 337 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: that way. That if we all work together, and we 338 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: worked diligently, and we keep our focus on on on 339 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 1: the target, that we can save people from crime, and 340 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: we can protect people from evil doers. I really appreciate 341 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: what you're saying right now, that you know after my 342 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: fiancee was murtyred and the years that followed, when I 343 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: dropped out of school and decided to go to law 344 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: school to be a prosecutor, I thought I knew it 345 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 1: all about suffering and loss. But now that I have 346 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: the twins John, David and Lucy, when I think of 347 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: what you went through, I don't know. I don't know 348 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: that I could even stand up and take a step. 349 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 1: And just your real inspiration to me everyone with me 350 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: is Mark Class who founded Class Kids Class Kids Foundation, 351 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: and he also is in charge of created Class Kids 352 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: Search and Rescue. They're located out of Pensacola, Florida, and 353 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: they do about one hundred searches a year to help 354 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: find missing people. Mark Class knows what he's talking about. 355 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: He's been there and that's why I'm going to him now. 356 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: And the search for a little boy, Kiren Horman. I 357 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: will never forget his face, beautiful, little gap to smile, 358 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: a pair of glasses, kind of a little buzz cut. 359 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: He was just seven years old, just seven at the 360 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: time he goes missing in the weirdest circumstances. Kiren has 361 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: a as I recall a science project. I'm doing this 362 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 1: off the top of my head, a science project. There's 363 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: a science fair that day at school, and his stepmother 364 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 1: takes him to school. She says, he goes in the 365 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: building and he's never seen alive again. He's never seen period, 366 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: no trace of Kylin Horman. And I have studied and 367 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: studied and studied this case. But now in the last hours, 368 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: literally the case is heating up. Help me out, Mark, 369 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: what's happening. Well, there are several things that are happening. 370 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: First of all, there is a grand jury that's been 371 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: impaneled to listen to evidence in the case, and obviously 372 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 1: we have no idea what that evidence is, but it's 373 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: significant that seven years after a little boy dies that 374 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: they're still involved in those kinds of activities. There have 375 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: been official, not volunteer, but there have been law enforcement 376 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: ground searches for Kiran in the past couple of months, 377 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: including one just this past week, I believe. So there's 378 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: obviously new information that's been shared with them, whether it's 379 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: through the grand jury or through other means. Because they're 380 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: also looking at computers, they're also looking at computer evidence 381 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: from uh seven years ago. They've taken a computer that 382 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: belonged to Kayron's um stepmother and are doing some new 383 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: forensic testing on that. And then they've also come and 384 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: interviewed Um Kirroans stepmother down in Sacramento where she now lives, 385 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: about a variety of things. She seems to have had 386 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: a criminal history. There seems to have been a past 387 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: murder for higher um case against her. She has threatened 388 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: to boyfriend recently, she's stolen a firearm recently. This is 389 00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 1: a woman that obviously has anger management issues. So all 390 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: of these things are sort of percolating at one time, 391 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: and hopefully, as as Kyrion's mother, you know, so eloquently 392 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: put it, she'll be able to get up one morning 393 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: and have have a resolution to this horrible mystery. Mark. 394 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: I cannot even imagine getting up, as you said, getting 395 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: up in the morning with the knowledge that I don't 396 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 1: know where my child is, and I haven't known that 397 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: one day he goes to school or she goes to school, 398 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: and I never see them again. You know, I know 399 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 1: my children are nine years old now. But the other night, 400 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 1: the night before last, I took a picture of John 401 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 1: David in his sleep. He was so precious and I 402 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: sneak in on him all the time and just look 403 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: at them. I just can't even imagine how I'm going 404 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: to get back to the stepmother. But am I missing 405 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: a fact at all about the way Tyrne went missing? 406 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: What happened that day to your memory? Well, in my memory, 407 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: she left about a two seconds interval where he could 408 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: have disappeared. She took him to school, as you said, 409 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: I believe she watched him go up to the front, 410 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: up to the door of his classroom and then turned around, 411 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: and I think that there was surveillance tape or or 412 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: a custodian or somebody that that followed in right after that. 413 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: That really narrowed that window where he could have possibly disappeared, 414 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: because she said he went into the school, he went 415 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 1: to the door, and then somebody else saw that he 416 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: wasn't there at all. And the indication is that this 417 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: was a made up story, that he was never at 418 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: the school. Anyone ever ever see him at the school, 419 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: Mark anybody ever else else ever see him. No, nobody 420 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: ever saw him after that point. I believe, like you said, 421 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: there was a science fair, and I think he was 422 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: going in to participate on or to could demonstrate his 423 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: his project in the science fair. But no, she was 424 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: the last person that ever saw him. She left about 425 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: a two second window of opportunity for him to disappear, 426 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: which is absolutely ludicrous. Nobody disappears in two seconds from 427 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: public place. I mean clarify that in my own mind. 428 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: You're saying she left a two second window for him 429 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: to disappear, and I guess that means she's saying she 430 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: saw him walk into the door at school, and then 431 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: I guess he'd have to disappear between the door and 432 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: his classroom and in Yes, that's exactly right, that's exactly right, 433 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: And there was nobody else. There was nobody else in 434 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: the hallway until I believe a custodian came into the 435 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: hallway and there was no chiron there at all. The 436 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: Karen Horman is closing down roads in Portland's West Hills area. 437 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: According to Mark Class and news outlets, the stepmother is 438 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: being re interviewed and computer searches have been done relating 439 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: to her. What do we know about the computer searches. 440 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: I'm just interested. They've never been done before. I can't 441 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: even believe that myself and I don't know what's new 442 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: and computer science and enables them to go deeper, perhaps 443 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: into communications or activity that occurred on the computer. But 444 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: I have to believe that they did forensic testing at 445 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: the time back it was a pretty thing they did 446 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: to sure. Maybe they're looking for something new on her computer. Well, 447 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: they're saying that it's a computer that used to belong 448 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: to her. I'm okay, it's a computer that she she 449 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: hasn't in her possession right now, but it is a 450 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: computer that she was using at one point. What do 451 00:30:55,040 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: we know about her About the stepmother, well, we know 452 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: that she was at one point in time involved in 453 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: bodybuilding UM. And if you've seen any pictures of her 454 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: during that time, the inference I think is very clear 455 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: that she might have been using steroids, and we know 456 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: that steroids do create problems. But that's just an opinion 457 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: of mine. UM. But we know that she is now 458 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: divorced from Kron's father, father Kane Hormon, and I believe 459 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: that there was a domestic abuse incident there involving her. 460 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: She's living in Sacramento. She recently stole her roommates gun 461 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: and he filed charges against her. Back in December, she 462 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: threatened to stab a boyfriend who was now an ex boyfriend, 463 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: and back in there was a murder for higher plot 464 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,959 Speaker 1: against yet another boyfriend. So this is definitely a lady 465 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: with some anger management issues. You know, you think you 466 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: know someone and you let them be around your child, 467 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: wi old in good faith, not having any idea that 468 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: you the one that loves your child the most in 469 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: the world, is actually opening the door for more sinister 470 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: things to happen. The timeline goes down like this. It 471 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: was a Friday, June four, skyline elementary. It opens early 472 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: so students and parents can towards the science fair. Okay, 473 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: there's a big billboard outside that talks about the expo 474 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: and a talent show. He was supposed to take part 475 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: in the expo, science fair and the talent show. Now 476 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: the stepmother arrives shortly after with her stepson, Kiriren Hormon. Okay, another, 477 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: this is an important thing. At eight fifteen, the president 478 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: of the school pta arise and sees Kiren with his 479 00:32:54,840 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: stepmother at the exhibit A forty five. She leaves. She 480 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: says she watches Kirron walk toward his classroom after they 481 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: drop off the things, their stuff at the science fair. 482 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: That's it. That's it. Classes begin. At some point. The 483 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: home room teacher reports him absent. Immediately, you've got Terry Hormon, 484 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: the stepmother posting photos of Kron at the science fair 485 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: on her Facebook page. She goes to meet the school bus. 486 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: Kirin has been absent all day. Kane, the husband, also 487 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: went with her. The skyline school secretary places a call 488 00:33:53,960 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: to about She calls about Karen being missing. Now the 489 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: stepmother the school secretary, look how many hours they've lost 490 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: mark class? It's three forty six he went missing with 491 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: the stepmother at eight forty five a m. Look at 492 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: how much time they've lost, time lost, an opportunity gained 493 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: for her to dispose of the body. One could say, 494 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: you know, rapid broadcast messages from the public school goes 495 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: out to alert families of the missing student. Kiriren Hormon 496 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: did not arrive at home today. It was broadcast to 497 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: phones of parents across the school district. The search begins. 498 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: To this day, Kiren Hormon has not been found. Tipline 499 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,800 Speaker 1: five O three two six one two eight four seven 500 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: repeat five oh three two six one two eight four seven. 501 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: Question do you mark class? You said Kirn is dead? 502 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: Why do say that? Because there's been no word of 503 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,399 Speaker 1: him over the course of the past seven years. Now, 504 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: I know that one can hold on to the hope 505 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,839 Speaker 1: of another Elizabeth Smart resolution or another J. C. Du 506 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:22,399 Speaker 1: Gard resolution. But those were different types of situations. Um, 507 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 1: those were children that were literally taken by strangers. They 508 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: were taken by strangers, and they were taken for a 509 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: specific purpose so that they could become sex slaves. In 510 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: Chiron's situation, we're looking at a very different kind of scenario. 511 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: We're looking at a stepmother with issues of her own, 512 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:47,919 Speaker 1: who has put together a story that makes absolutely no 513 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 1: sense on any level whatsoever. And there's been no sight 514 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: nor sound of hormon of Kiron over the course of 515 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: the past seven years. So I think the chances of 516 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: him turning up live somewhere are are almost infinitesimal, simply 517 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: because her intention was not to maintain this boy as 518 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: a sex slave, but to take this boy out of 519 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: her life altogether. Can I ask you about the priors 520 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: the stepmother had. What does that mean? What does that 521 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: mean as it relates to Karen's disappearance. Well, it just 522 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: shows a history of violence, is what it shows. In 523 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: a history of threatening violence. Uh, there's the murder for 524 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:40,240 Speaker 1: higher certainly, there's the intention or the or the threat 525 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 1: to stab a boyfriend. There's the theft of a firearm. 526 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about items of destruction, is what 527 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: we're talking about here. And we're talking about destruction and 528 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: the potential for destruction. So you know, I'm much much 529 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: older than this woman. I've never in my life been 530 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,439 Speaker 1: involved in any of these types of situations, adds, as 531 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: most people have not. So when you find somebody that 532 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,840 Speaker 1: that does have a history, that goes back decades, that 533 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: involves firearms, that involves threats with knives, that raw involves 534 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: disappearances of little boys. You have to draw your own conclusions. 535 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: Another issue happened that October following Karen's disappearance. The husband 536 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:37,919 Speaker 1: Kane Horman, files an objection to the stepmother visiting with 537 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 1: daughter Kiara. He wants a mental health evaluation of Terry 538 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 1: Moulton before allowing her to be with their young daughter. 539 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: They had this daughter together. Do you know what became 540 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 1: of that? No, I don't, And I you know, I know. 541 00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: I've met Kane Hormon and he's are quiet man and 542 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: a uh. He keeps to himself, and he doesn't share 543 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 1: a lot of information and and in fact, the last 544 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: time I talked to Canad wasn't one of the greatest 545 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: conversations I ever had. But he he indicated he'd prefer 546 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,359 Speaker 1: to keep his personal affairs personal after what all they've 547 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: been through. Um m hmm. I just it's just so 548 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: hard for me to imagine what they've been through. But 549 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: I know this, the search for Karen Horman is far 550 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: from over a seven year old little boy. It is 551 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: far from over Mark Class. I can't thank you enough, 552 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: not only for today, but for every day that you 553 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: inspire all of us to continue on mark. Thank you, 554 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: Thank you, Nancy, You're the best. We now turn to 555 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:04,320 Speaker 1: a breaking story for children dead, a fifth in critical 556 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: condition still in the hospital, and the dad that's five 557 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: dead and another a nine year old girl's life hanging 558 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: in the balance. What happened and this isn't the result 559 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 1: of a car crash or some catastrophic accident. These four 560 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: children were stabbed dead. The fifth little girl, as I said, 561 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: just nine years old, age of my twins, is in 562 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: the hospital in critical condition. Why would anyone stab five children, 563 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 1: five little children, and then appear in court smiling and 564 00:39:54,960 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 1: actually giving a double thumbs up for the cameras. Yeah, 565 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:10,320 Speaker 1: that killer Isabel Martinez, the mother of the children. Yes, 566 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: with me right now, renowned psychologist Karen starts joining us 567 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 1: out of New York, and also with me, my friend 568 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: and colleague Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator and professor at 569 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University. To both of you, thank you for 570 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:34,400 Speaker 1: being with us. Joe Scott, let me start with you. 571 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,360 Speaker 1: You know, when I describe the murders in this case, 572 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 1: it's shocking and gut wrenching. But then when I say 573 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:50,240 Speaker 1: the punchline, the mother Isabel is the killer. Somehow everybody goes, oh, okay, 574 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 1: I I don't get that. Help me out, Joe Scott, Yeah, 575 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,840 Speaker 1: it doesn't for me, It doesn't. It doesn't lessen it 576 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: for me. The police are describing that says, an absolute 577 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 1: blood bath. That's all that has really been released at 578 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 1: this point. The medical examiner hasn't given too much more detail. 579 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 1: But I can't tell you this, Nancy. Anytime you have 580 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:15,279 Speaker 1: an attack where you have individuals that are uh, that 581 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,279 Speaker 1: are stabbed, this is a very personal crime. Uh. And 582 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,759 Speaker 1: you have four of these children that have literally been 583 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,280 Speaker 1: slaughtered in their little home in Loganville, Georgia, about thirty 584 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: miles east of Atlanta. And also the father of these children, 585 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,359 Speaker 1: and as you mentioned, this one little nine year old 586 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 1: girl just clings to life at the children's hospital. And 587 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 1: five counts of melice murder, five counts of murder, six 588 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:47,120 Speaker 1: counts of aggravated assault. And Isabel smiles in court, shaking 589 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:52,840 Speaker 1: her head no and wagging her finger at the judge. 590 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,439 Speaker 1: When the judge such Thorpe informed her of a right 591 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 1: to have a lawyer, she says she doesn't want a lawyer, 592 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 1: and she will her faith will always be in the 593 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: people and her faith. Okay, you know what, she better 594 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,320 Speaker 1: get down on her knees and start praying now. Okay, because, 595 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 1: Karen Stark, psychologists, if she has the sense to say 596 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 1: no to the judge and wag her finger, give a 597 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 1: thumbs up and smile, there is no way she was 598 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:27,560 Speaker 1: insane because she is saying she understands what the judge 599 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,360 Speaker 1: is saying and charging her with. But she's saying no, no, 600 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: I didn't do that and can speak coherently. Now I 601 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: know what's gonna happen, Karen. People who study mothers accused 602 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 1: of killing their children will claim that she had I 603 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 1: don't know, post traumatic stress syndrome, baby blues um, post 604 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,400 Speaker 1: baby depression, as in the case of Andrea Yates, who 605 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 1: has found not guilty by reason of insanity from methodically 606 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: drowning all five of her children in her suburban Houston home. Okay, 607 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 1: remember that, and everybody gave her a free pass. The 608 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,759 Speaker 1: same thing is going to happen here, and I disagree, 609 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,479 Speaker 1: Karen Stark. You know, Nancy, it will really depend on 610 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 1: whether she does in fact have mental illness or whether 611 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 1: This was something that was a conscious decision on her part, 612 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 1: as you said, And that's much rarer than somebody who 613 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,480 Speaker 1: has had some kind of a psychotic break or a 614 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:34,759 Speaker 1: postpartum depression um, which is the other alternative. And it's 615 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,400 Speaker 1: hard to imagine when you think of somebody like Susan 616 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:42,439 Speaker 1: Smith her motive. She's a sociopath. She fits in that 617 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 1: category where she had a very refresh everybody's recollection. Susan 618 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:52,359 Speaker 1: Smith um had. She and her husband were stranged, she 619 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 1: got any boyfriend. The boyfriend said he didn't want to 620 00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 1: marry anybody that already had children, already made family, So 621 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:06,759 Speaker 1: bam what happened. There is no doubt at all that 622 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,959 Speaker 1: she buckled her children. I think it was three little 623 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,840 Speaker 1: boys into the family vehicle and pushed it into the 624 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 1: lake and then tried to blame an unknown African American male. 625 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,239 Speaker 1: You know, I remember Alan Duke. I was sitting in 626 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,239 Speaker 1: trial around the time this happened. I looked at my 627 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: trial partner, said, herman, have you seen the composite and 628 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 1: the Susan Smith case. He goes, mm hmmmm, I'm like, 629 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: it looks a lot like you, herman, Because the guy 630 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: she blamed of course he didn't exist. Was incredibly like 631 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,440 Speaker 1: my trial partner. It looked just like myself. Well, herman, 632 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 1: if you need me, I can give you an alibi, okay, 633 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,680 Speaker 1: because she was there with me trying a case. So 634 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:53,879 Speaker 1: she blames the black guy and she actually murdered her 635 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,279 Speaker 1: own children to get a younger boyfriend. Now there is 636 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,480 Speaker 1: no way in h e double l that she was 637 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,439 Speaker 1: Millian saying, she's just playing old mean and she's where 638 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:08,600 Speaker 1: she needs to be, in jail en route to hell. Okay, 639 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 1: Now let's talk about Andrea Yates. Or Andrea Yates, she 640 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,399 Speaker 1: drowns all five of her children, including a six month 641 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:20,680 Speaker 1: old little girl. Her lawyers claimed she had severe postpartum 642 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:26,880 Speaker 1: psychosis at the time. The children were covered in bruises 643 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:32,480 Speaker 1: where they tried to live. They fought to live, even 644 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,560 Speaker 1: the baby. I have a hard time given these moms 645 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:41,120 Speaker 1: a free pass. Karen Stark, I couldn't understand that, Nancy. 646 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,840 Speaker 1: But when you think about her case, it's very different 647 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 1: than Susan Smith. This is more of an altruistic killing 648 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:52,680 Speaker 1: where she believes and she literally does believe. What who 649 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:57,239 Speaker 1: whoa whoa? Did you just say an altruistic killing? And 650 00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: and in your psycho talk. What is an altruistic killing? 651 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,239 Speaker 1: That's a killing? I can't wait to hear this. Well, 652 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 1: you believe that your children are better off dead we are. 653 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,239 Speaker 1: You're in a psychotic Let me ask you one thing. 654 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:15,080 Speaker 1: You say. They're so different, you say, Andrea Yates's case 655 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:19,279 Speaker 1: is so different from Susan Smith's case. Let me ask 656 00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 1: you just one question. This is a yes no answer, 657 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 1: Karen Stark in both cases, are all the little children dead? Yes? Okay, 658 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,200 Speaker 1: that's my jumping off point right now, right there, Let 659 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: me get back to Isabel Martinez, who gives flashes a 660 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:43,560 Speaker 1: thumbs up and smiles in court. Joe Scott, Did I 661 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:48,399 Speaker 1: get that wrong? Joseph Scott Morrigan, professor at Jacksonville State University. 662 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,960 Speaker 1: Did I miss something? Is that correct? Yes? Yes, Actually 663 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:56,640 Speaker 1: she was folding her hands in prayer, very demonstrative in court, 664 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 1: extending her arms out and making the sign of the cross, 665 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,799 Speaker 1: all of these types of things. She even knelt. At 666 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:04,640 Speaker 1: one point in time the bailiff had to come over 667 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,680 Speaker 1: and direct her to stand up. And then she continues 668 00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,360 Speaker 1: on with a smirk. And you know, as as a 669 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:15,600 Speaker 1: death investigator working in New Orleans and Atlanta, over twenty years. 670 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,160 Speaker 1: We we had an adage that we would apply. We 671 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,680 Speaker 1: would say, you know, the more insane you behave the 672 00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 1: crazier and uh, the more robust the killing, the higher 673 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,160 Speaker 1: the likelihood it is that you're going to get away 674 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:34,960 Speaker 1: with it. Because you know, people when they view these folks, 675 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,239 Speaker 1: they think, well, no one in their right mind could 676 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,600 Speaker 1: have done this. Uh, you go back to again. I 677 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,759 Speaker 1: don't want to redirect here, but just for a moment, 678 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,279 Speaker 1: I'd like to revisit Andrew Yate. You think about her, 679 00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,360 Speaker 1: I call that a purpose to killing because you know 680 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,480 Speaker 1: you mentioned that the children had bruises all over them. Uh, 681 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,360 Speaker 1: this is something that took time to do. It was 682 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,360 Speaker 1: an organized manner in which that was done where she 683 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,120 Speaker 1: had to drown these children individually. That's a brutal thing. 684 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,279 Speaker 1: It's not like taking a weapon the mechanism of death 685 00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:09,400 Speaker 1: as we apply to it, and quickly shooting somebody. Um, 686 00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,359 Speaker 1: we can go to this case in particular, this took 687 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:18,160 Speaker 1: purpose with Martinez, she had to facilitate using a knife. 688 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,280 Speaker 1: I'm assuming, and this is a big assumption, she killed 689 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 1: the adult male first and then methodically went through and 690 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:30,319 Speaker 1: butchered these four children and severely and severely injured this other. 691 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,440 Speaker 1: So it's not like this. Let me tell you something else, 692 00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:38,839 Speaker 1: Joe Scott that may factor into your analysis. Police say 693 00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:43,919 Speaker 1: the killings. The murders occurred between two am and five am, 694 00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:49,480 Speaker 1: so she waited until everybody was asleep before she stabbed 695 00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:55,720 Speaker 1: them all dead. That changes my thinking a great deal. Yeah, 696 00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,120 Speaker 1: mine too, Nancy. When you know, when when I was 697 00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,759 Speaker 1: learning criminal in college in Louisiana, they had a term 698 00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:04,600 Speaker 1: and I know that you're very familiar with it, and 699 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,320 Speaker 1: it's called the heating and cooling of blood. Uh, this 700 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,600 Speaker 1: idea that you have sufficient amount of time for for 701 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,160 Speaker 1: your you know, to to go from this kind of 702 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,200 Speaker 1: rage state into a clearer thought pattern where you can 703 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,960 Speaker 1: think what you're doing. This is an extended period of time. 704 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,719 Speaker 1: What's going to be essential to this in a forensic 705 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,560 Speaker 1: standpoint is to find out what kind of postmortem changes 706 00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:29,480 Speaker 1: took place with these bodies, to find out what stages 707 00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,440 Speaker 1: of of postmortem change. You know, was one child and 708 00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,440 Speaker 1: full riger Mortis was the husband and full riger Mortis 709 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,439 Speaker 1: because that's gonna mean that they died earlier, and how 710 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,319 Speaker 1: long did it take? And also this is something else 711 00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,719 Speaker 1: I'd be very curious to know was any one of 712 00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,200 Speaker 1: these people where they tortured. In the meantime, I've worked 713 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,080 Speaker 1: cases where people have used edged weapons and they have 714 00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:55,920 Speaker 1: protracted over a protracted period of time, and they've taken 715 00:49:55,920 --> 00:50:00,279 Speaker 1: an edged weapon and essentially terrorized the individual by making 716 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,880 Speaker 1: small cuts over the body where these people were strained. 717 00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,000 Speaker 1: That's what we're thinking. That's the information that I want 718 00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,000 Speaker 1: to know that we don't have yet, but I'm sure 719 00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,600 Speaker 1: that that's going to come out eventually. Four children dead, 720 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 1: as young as a little one actual age two, a 721 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:19,839 Speaker 1: nine year old girl's life hanging in the balance as 722 00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:23,840 Speaker 1: we wait to hear the outcome in the case against 723 00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:28,240 Speaker 1: of all people with their mother. I want to thank 724 00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:32,680 Speaker 1: you for being with us today, of all days, our 725 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:40,279 Speaker 1: first program on the awesome Serious x M. Nancy Gray 726 00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:56,200 Speaker 1: signing off goodbye to him.