1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holy Fry. 3 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 2: And I'm tray cy V Wilson. So we talked about 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 2: brunnen Burgh this week, which is full of mystery. Yep, 5 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 2: I have, I have, I have some thoughts, Okay. One 6 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 2: was an interesting thing that came up while I was 7 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: looking at the website for Rural Archaeology, which was a 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: quote that reads, the English Battlefield Register only has forty 9 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 2: seven battles that are recognized and whose locations are accepted. 10 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 2: Given the length of history of that place, where there 11 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 2: are hundreds of battles, that is a very tiny number. 12 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 2: And it just got me thinking about loss of information, 13 00:00:58,120 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 2: because there were a lot of things that I read 14 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 2: that were like, people forgot all about this battle, and 15 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 2: I'm like, well they didn't, because there are people today 16 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 2: that make their entire careers studying it. Yeah, it may 17 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 2: not have been as well known, but parts of it 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 2: certainly were lost. And it got me to thinking about 19 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 2: the way that in cultures where history has largely been 20 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 2: shared through oral traditions, there is always that thing of like, 21 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 2: of course we know where the Great Battle happened, it 22 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 2: was right over there, and then we'll tell the next generation, 23 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 2: and then they'll tell the next generation. But that eventually 24 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 2: breaks down. It doesn't take into account like the way 25 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 2: the world might change going forward, and so I just 26 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 2: find that super interesting. You know. It's not as though 27 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 2: I feel like in the US we have a different 28 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 2: vibe on the whole thing, because by the time the 29 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 2: US was founded, we had all of this European history 30 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 2: behind us, where we were like mark those battlefields people. Yeah, 31 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: so there has been kind of a quicker mood, yeah, 32 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: to put up historical markers in places like that, whereas 33 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 2: all over Europe there are places that a lot of 34 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 2: important stuff happened where it's. 35 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: Like I think this is the place, I'm not sure. 36 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 2: There's also an element to that that is like it's 37 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 2: one of those things that's culturally and socially constructed in 38 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 2: a way that people might not even think about because 39 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 2: like it seems obvious right that like we would mark 40 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 2: where the side of the battle was, but like the 41 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 2: idea that that's something that needs to be marked and commemorated, 42 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 2: like that comes from a specific culture and a specific mindset, 43 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 2: and not every culture necessarily works that way, sort of 44 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: like the idea that historic buildings should be preserved that 45 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: comes out of a specific cultural context. Not every culture 46 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 2: thinks that's what needs to happen, right. I also wanted 47 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 2: to talk a little bit about Michael Livingston because his 48 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 2: work is really interesting and a lot of people really 49 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 2: revere him and reading his books. 50 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, I see why. If you are at. 51 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: All interested in any of this, I highly recommend checking 52 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 2: out his work. One of the things that came up 53 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 2: in several instances where I was reading kind of assessments 54 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 2: by English historians is like, well, you know, Michael Livingston 55 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 2: is from the US, but he still seems to know 56 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 2: what he's talking about, which is kind of funny in 57 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 2: and of itself. But the intro in particular for Never 58 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 2: Greater Slaughter that he wrote, which really dives into all 59 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 2: of this, had some really interesting things where he talks 60 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: about the ways that writing about and talking about history 61 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 2: have changed over the years, Like he just seems to 62 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 2: have a very broad minded understanding and grasp of the 63 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 2: way things have shifted. 64 00:03:58,800 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: That I really like. 65 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: He talks about how in some circles Anglo Saxon is 66 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 2: kind of perceived as not cool anymore as a term 67 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 2: because in a lot of cases it's been co opted 68 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: as people who are you know, weaponizing racial identity. Yeah, 69 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 2: it's been co opted by white supremacy things, right, And 70 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 2: he's like, but you know, in some cases, right, I 71 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 2: still want to use the term Anglo Saxon because in 72 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 2: a lot of cases it helps avoid confusion. Right, Yeah, 73 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: we are talking about the Anglo Saxon chronicle. There's not 74 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: really a way to rename it that, right, everyone's going 75 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 2: to get at the same time. And he talks about 76 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: a lot of things like that with that kind of thoughtfulness, 77 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 2: which I really liked. Yeah, the terminology of Anglo Saxon 78 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 2: was something that I was thinking about as I was 79 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 2: reading the outline after you sent it over, Like for 80 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 2: exactly that reason. There's an idea of like Anglo Saxon 81 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 2: as sort of a quint essentially white and also quint 82 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: essentially British identity that like a lot of then like 83 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 2: eighteenth and nineteenth century writers kind of glommed onto. 84 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: And it number one. 85 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 2: As as we said in the episode, like the term 86 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 2: Anglo Saxon is kind of an umbrella term that encompass, 87 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:21,559 Speaker 2: encompasses a lot of different mostly Germanic peoples, but also 88 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 2: these were Germanic peoples. They were immigrants to Britain. They 89 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 2: were not Britain's like native population. They came from somewhere else. 90 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 2: And so when I'm working on like, for example, Unearthed 91 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 2: episodes and we talk about some kind of find, a 92 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,679 Speaker 2: lot of times I will just say Early English instead 93 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 2: of Anglo Saxon. But in that context, Early English still 94 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 2: makes sense to people in a context where the key 95 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 2: source that we're talking about is the Anglo Saxon chronicle 96 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 2: that has like a slightly different right. I mean, if 97 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 2: you were to time travel back to nine thirty seven 98 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 2: and be like, hey, are you the Anglo Saxons, they'd 99 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 2: be like, we don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, 100 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 2: Like it's a term that came after all of this. Yes, 101 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 2: there were Saxons in Britain and there were also Saxons 102 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 2: in what's now Germany, and the term Anglo Saxon was 103 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 2: initially kind of to differentiate between those two different groups, 104 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 2: but then it also expanded to incorporate all of these 105 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 2: other Germanic peoples who were not Saxons but were part 106 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 2: of what became this like cultural group of early England. 107 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 1: Yes. 108 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 2: The other funny thing that I wanted to note in 109 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 2: Livingston's writing is the way that he talks about dates, 110 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 2: because he mentions that, you know, the Anno Dominie BCAD 111 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 2: thing is inherently religious, and so a lot of historians 112 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 2: don't do that. We don't on our show, for example. 113 00:06:58,680 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: Although he feels like. 114 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 2: It actually doesn't really remove the religious axis for what 115 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 2: he says, it just kind of hides it. So he 116 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 2: tends to go in BC and AD. But he has 117 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 2: this great quote about it that tickled me so much 118 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: last night as I was putting like the finishes on 119 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 2: this that I started laughing, just cackling to myself and 120 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 2: I hope the neighbors didn't hear. And he writes, quote, 121 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 2: if this offense, I am sorry, but I also offer 122 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 2: up the solace that the Christian monks who devised the 123 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 2: system so completely botched their calculations that it isn't at 124 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 2: all accurate to what they were trying to achieve. And 125 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: I was like, I think, I love you. If that 126 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 2: kind of historian sounds fun to you, highly recommend his books. 127 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: I really really enjoyed them as this research was going 128 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: on Yeah, it's been a super long time since we've 129 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 2: like talked specifically about using BCE and CE on our show. 130 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 2: Like I think the last time we specifically said something 131 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 2: about that was in a Listener Male episode from like 132 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: a decade ago. But like, it is an imperfect system, 133 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 2: it's still based on the same ideas that BC and 134 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 2: AD are based on in terms of like when the 135 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 2: calendar shifts. But I don't know, it's just we have 136 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: the imperfect systems to work within. 137 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 138 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 2: Uh, and it seems like a slightly more inclusive choice 139 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 2: within our imperfect choices. 140 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: Oh, agreed, Agreed. I mean, I don't. 141 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 2: Here's the thing, it is one of those things that 142 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 2: still gets kind of bickered about, as he pointed out, 143 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 2: and I don't. I My take is kind of that 144 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 2: I don't slight any way a historian wants to do 145 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 2: it as long as they are doing it thoughtfully. Like 146 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 2: in his case, he's like, I'm doing this because it 147 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 2: is easier for readers to understand, and I'm like, I 148 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 2: get that, and he understands the context of why other 149 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 2: people don't. And then he he's like, in my head, 150 00:08:57,960 --> 00:08:59,719 Speaker 2: it's all kind of meaningless because they screwed the whole 151 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 2: problem up anyway, which I kind of love, so, like, 152 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 2: you know, whichever works anyway. I quite enjoyed his work 153 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 2: a lot. It made me think about all of the 154 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 2: things that happen every day that we aren't annotating. But 155 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 2: there's really no way to annotate everything. 156 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: Although this was a. 157 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 2: Huge, huge, I think that's part of it too. It 158 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 2: was such a huge battle at the time, there was 159 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: so much bloodshed. It was considered the biggest battle that 160 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: had ever been fought. Everyone's like, no, one's gonna forget 161 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: this ever, We'll know all the details forever because look, 162 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: it's huge, which isn't the way the world works. We 163 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: forget all the stuff. We're still trying to figure out 164 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 2: stuff about, you know, ancient Egypt, and it's a mystery. 165 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 2: So although we do know a lot more than we 166 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 2: used to, but still there's so many evidences of like 167 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 2: how everyone goes. Of course, everyone's going to know about 168 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 2: this forever, no, which I find an odd sort of 169 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 2: solace in. 170 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: But yeah. 171 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 2: One of our episodes this week was on Ettian Cabet 172 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: and his effort to build a communist utopia. I meant 173 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 2: to say this in the episode and forgot just because 174 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 2: I think the term communist has some specific connotations in 175 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 2: like today's world. 176 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: Yes, some of which is going to come up on 177 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: an upcoming episode. 178 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, bitch, this was very early in the history of communism, 179 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 2: like the idea of having an equal distribution of wealth 180 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 2: and everyone cooperating. That is an old idea that's been 181 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: around for a long time. Yes, this is the root 182 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 2: the root word commune, right, not necessarily what all of 183 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 2: the imagery we have in our heads about what it is, 184 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 2: having grown up in the twentieth century. So his writing 185 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 2: about these ideas predated things like Karl Marx predated the 186 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 2: communist Manifesto, well, predated the first establishment of like the 187 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 2: socialist republics that eventually became the USSR, like well before 188 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 2: all of that, but based on so, you know, similar 189 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 2: ideas to not having completely unequal wealth distribution, everyone contributing, 190 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 2: you know, each to their own abilities and getting things 191 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 2: according to their own needs, that kind of stuff. I 192 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 2: described this in very brief passing in the Narcisse Montreal 193 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 2: episode as a failed utopian experiment. What they try to 194 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 2: do in Texas absolutely a failure. 195 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: That went poorly. Yes, that went very badly. 196 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 2: I'm less I am less apt to describe the entire 197 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 2: rest of the project as a failure. They did have 198 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: a lot of siss really, a lot of it was 199 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 2: the same schism over and over again. But they did 200 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 2: manage to keep one community going for forty six years, 201 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 2: which is a long time. 202 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 1: It is. 203 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 2: And there have of course been uh you know, utopian 204 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 2: or communal living efforts by religious orders that have lasted much, much, 205 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 2: much longer than that, But in terms of ones that 206 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 2: like did not have that religious element, this is the 207 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 2: longest lasting. 208 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: One that we know of. 209 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 2: So. Yeah, one of the things that I sent a 210 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 2: message to you about when I was working on this 211 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 2: was how complicated the history of France is. Specifically during 212 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 2: the time that Ettiankabe was living in France. There is 213 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 2: just so much Oh yeah, it's busy, so much revolution 214 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 2: and counter revolution and like many many things going on 215 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 2: in a not very long span of time. And every 216 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 2: time I got to another one, I was like, and 217 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 2: then there was another revolution that we need to explain 218 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 2: at least briefly. Right, Yeah, it's you know, French history is. 219 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 2: I love it, but I find I have to take 220 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 2: it in bites to parse it out. Like it's so 221 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 2: hard to look at the totality of French history and 222 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: be like, wait, what, there's no single through line for 223 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 2: a big chunk of it. There are like a lot 224 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 2: of things going on at the same time. Yeah, which 225 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 2: is it makes it very interesting, but it also makes 226 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 2: it sometimes hard to like hone in on one part 227 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 2: of it without having to like connect all the disparate 228 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 2: threads that are simultaneously going on. I think we've talked 229 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:48,959 Speaker 2: about this before. I'm obsessed with the concept of utopian communities. 230 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 1: Oh sure, yeah, agreed. 231 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 2: I mean I can trace it back to the moment 232 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 2: I first heard that they were a thing, which was 233 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 2: when I was in high school and my English teacher, 234 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 2: mister Holly shout out to mister Holly had mentioned that 235 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 2: he thought I would find the brook Farm community really interesting. 236 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and he was right. 237 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 2: And we've talked about it here on the show because 238 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 2: I'm so interested in it. But I really it's like I, I, 239 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: like many of us, have that idea of like, oh, 240 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 2: wouldn't it be great to go and form like a 241 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 2: little commune with my friends, But I know realistically it 242 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: would never work. 243 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 244 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, We've talked about several of them. A lot of 245 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 2: the ones that get brought up in the same context 246 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 2: as Akari because a lot of them were all happening 247 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: in the nineteenth century in the United States, Like there 248 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 2: are several and a lot of them we've done episodes 249 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 2: on because we've done Brook Farm, We've done why is 250 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 2: suddenly the name escaping me of New Harmony? There was 251 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 2: New Harmony which was you know, we had that recently 252 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 2: as the Saturd Classic before this fruit Lands, which is 253 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 2: the one that the Alcots were involved with, And a 254 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 2: lot of them have a pretty similar story in terms 255 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 2: of like people who have a really idealistic sense of 256 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 2: what they want to accomplish coming together to try to 257 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 2: do something, not necessarily being prepared for the work that 258 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 2: is going to be involved, to really sustain themselves. And 259 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 2: then a lot of times there's just a lot of 260 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 2: people getting sick and dying and moving away. And there 261 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 2: was some of that, especially in Texas. Texas went very 262 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 2: badly for the Okarians, but like later on, there was 263 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 2: a lot more of like really hard work trying to 264 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 2: make things go, Ideological schisms being seeming to be more 265 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 2: of an issue than illnesses and unpreparedness, which is the 266 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 2: case in some of the others. Yeah, yeah, it makes 267 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: me I mean I get very quickly into the bigger 268 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 2: question of like, is it really realistic for anything like 269 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 2: this to ever work? 270 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: Yeah? I don't think maybe it is. 271 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 2: I mean, just the right the basic concept, even if 272 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 2: it's a small number of people, Over time, people are 273 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 2: gonna want different things, even if you're all on the 274 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 2: same page when the whole thing starts, people change and 275 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 2: grow and evolve, and what they wanted when they all 276 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 2: agreed to it may not be what they want five 277 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 2: years down the road or longer, and the people that 278 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 2: they trusted to be put in charge may also change 279 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 2: and shift and no longer represent you know, what they 280 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 2: thought they were signing on to you, Like, I just 281 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 2: I don't know how they ever work. They're no is 282 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 2: there a story of any of these ever really working 283 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 2: long term? Like long long term, Well that's been lasted 284 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 2: for forty six years. Long long term, long long term, 285 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 2: at least from my knowledge. The longest term gets into 286 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 2: communities that have a religious underpinning, right, Like they're Quaker 287 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 2: communities that you know, have gone on the long time. 288 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: There are still two surviving Shakers as of right like 289 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 2: a week ago, and I've thread I don't remember which 290 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 2: publication this was in, maybe the New York Times. Just 291 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 2: read a really fascinating article that was like a long 292 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 2: form look at the last two surviving Shakers and how 293 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 2: they are still upholding the ideals that brought them into 294 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: becoming Shakers. But they also have a support of people 295 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 2: who are more like community supporters and friends. Right, who 296 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 2: are you know, keeping this this community of two basically 297 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 2: still functioning that It's like there are some I would 298 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 2: say monastic orders that have been around for centuries, but 299 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 2: then that gets into having a little bit of big 300 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 2: yeah and having the wider support of a religious community 301 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 2: that's not taking monastic valve. I laugh only because I immediately 302 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 2: thought of chartreuse and the musks that make chartreuse sure, 303 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 2: and I'm like, they're very important. We need to keep 304 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 2: them going forever because chartreuse is one of my favorite liqueurs. 305 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 2: There are two things that are very silly pop culture 306 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 2: things that this story in particular makes me think of. 307 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 2: One was when we were discussing the idea of you know, 308 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 2: because everybody's doing the work, the work is easy and 309 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 2: it doesn't take much time, and I was like, well, 310 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 2: that's the Jetsons, but that's because machines were doing it. 311 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 2: But I just always remember laughing at the Jetsons when 312 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 2: George was. 313 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 1: Like, Oh, this three hour day is killing me. 314 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 2: And the other thing is that as we were talking 315 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 2: about Navoo, I was like, did George Lucas get the 316 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 2: name of Naboo from this, because that's kind of an idealistic, 317 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 2: art driven culture. Yeah, I have no idea, but I 318 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 2: had the same question in my head. Two things kind 319 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 2: of connected to that. Some of the articles that were 320 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 2: part of the research talked about businesses that still exist 321 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 2: today that were established by Akarians, generally like after the 322 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 2: community had dissolved or after they had left the community. 323 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 2: One is Baxter Winery in Navu, and that was established 324 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 2: after the Navu community was disbanded. The Akarians really had 325 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: a big influence on wine making and vineyards in that 326 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 2: part of the United States. Baxter Winery is the oldest 327 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 2: winery in Illinois. The other one, though I don't think, 328 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 2: was actually connected directly to the Akarians, but kind of 329 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 2: comes up in articles, and that is Dayton and Son's 330 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 2: b Supplies, which was founded by the Daydent family, and 331 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 2: that connection to the Akarians is kind of tenuous. Like 332 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 2: Charles Dayton did immigrate to the United States from France 333 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 2: in eighteen sixty three, settled south of Navu on the 334 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 2: Mississippi River, probably had some connections to the community because 335 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 2: communities are interconnected. His son later married somebody whose family 336 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 2: had been part of the Akarian community at Navu, but 337 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 2: their marriage was like, well after the community disbanded, so it's. 338 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 1: Like they're only kind of yeah, only kind of. 339 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 2: And I found one thing that had been written by 340 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 2: Camille that was saying, like, Hey, I keep seeing this 341 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 2: idea that my father was one of the Akarians, and 342 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 2: I think you all are just confused because I married 343 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: a former Karian, like my dad did not really have 344 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 2: much to do with that. So I took that out 345 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 2: of the outline because I was like, this seems a little, uh, 346 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,199 Speaker 2: a little more tenuous than it really makes sense to 347 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 2: have the other is I just I kind of wanted 348 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 2: to acknowledge that we've gotten some requests over the years 349 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 2: to do some kind of an episode about the founding 350 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 2: of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. 351 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 2: So I just want to say broadly that like I 352 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 2: don't think it's in our lane to do episodes about 353 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 2: the establishment of a religion that people practice today. 354 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,199 Speaker 1: Right, Like, there's there, this is. 355 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 2: A perfect example of how it comes up in it, 356 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 2: and you kind of got a touch on it. But 357 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,239 Speaker 2: right it starts to feel like we're representing people that 358 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 2: we are not connected to and don't have context for 359 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 2: in a deeper sense, right, And I think people specifically, 360 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 2: there are two varieties of email of people who are 361 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 2: asking for an episode on the establishment of the church, 362 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 2: and one is people who are members of the church 363 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 2: and like want that perspective on it, and the other 364 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 2: is people who want us to do an episode debunking it. 365 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 2: And like, neither of those requests would likely be satisfied 366 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 2: with any of any episode that we could do on 367 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 2: the subject. But I also like there is a lot 368 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 2: involved in religion and in people's sincerely held religious beliefs 369 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 2: that is not easily encapsulated in a history podcast where 370 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 2: we are trying to take a thoughtful, multiple considered from 371 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 2: multiple directions to get things. And so we have plenty 372 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 2: of episodes that are about either spiritual movements or religious 373 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 2: movements that don't really exist in that way anymore. I 374 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 2: just I find it weird for our show, in particular, 375 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 2: to try to do an episode discussing the creation of 376 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 2: a religion that people are observing and being members of today, 377 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 2: Like that just is weird. 378 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, the thing is, there's almost no way. 379 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 2: For it to land in a way that isn't perceived 380 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 2: as us commenting on it in a positive or negative right, which, 381 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 2: like is one of the reasons we don't generally talk 382 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 2: about people that are still alive accepting kind of specific circumstances, right, 383 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 2: nobody needs our take on their existence or their belief system. Like, 384 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 2: we're just trying to present the information as best we can, 385 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,199 Speaker 2: obviously acknowledging that there's inherently going to be biased no 386 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 2: matter what. 387 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: You know, based on a number of factors. But yeah, 388 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: it just it. 389 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 2: Then becomes a thing of like, I don't want anybody 390 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 2: to think I am criticizing their way of life if 391 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 2: it's you know, benign and not hurting anybody. I don't 392 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 2: want anybody also to think that I'm endorsing anybody's way 393 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 2: of life that I'm not a part of in any 394 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 2: way and don't have that information. It's just it's too 395 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 2: it's too tricky. Yeah, yeah, so I could just I 396 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 2: could imagine the flood of emails following the couple of mentions. 397 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 2: And while there are times that we have, you know, 398 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 2: talked about an event in history that is connected to 399 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 2: a particular group, like, that's a little bit of a 400 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 2: different thing from do an episode about the foundation of 401 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 2: this group, Right, we can do that with the Koreans 402 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 2: because they're not around anymore. And also it was explicitly 403 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 2: not a religious commutery, right. Anyway, did you have anything 404 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 2: else that you were itching to talk about with this episode? 405 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 2: I know you said that you had lots of thoughts, 406 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 2: you know, I just I want I want a commune 407 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 2: of nerdery where we play video games and watch Star 408 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 2: Wars stuff. 409 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: That's all us. Yeah, yeah, great. 410 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 2: When I was in my early twenties, I was like, 411 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 2: are there secular monastic community? I I'll tell you what 412 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 2: always hangs me up and makes me know that I 413 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 2: could not be part of any community like this. I 414 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 2: want stuff. Oh, I am a stuff aholic. I would 415 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 2: not be cool with No. You can't have your own thing, 416 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 2: you don't have individual property like I am such a 417 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 2: stuff aholic that even recently when I finally got around 418 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 2: to watching Dune. I was like, do these people have toys? 419 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:27,360 Speaker 1: Do they have? 420 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 2: Like? 421 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: What are they? It's not germane to the story at all, 422 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: but that's what my brain thinks. 423 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 2: Of, so sure, sure. So anyway, where's where's their expressover? She? 424 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 1: Yes? 425 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 2: I think had I done such a thing, this would 426 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 2: have it would have been much earlier in my life, 427 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 2: before I acquired so much stuff and so many habits. Anyway, 428 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 2: if you'd like to send us a note about this 429 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 2: or any other podcast, we're at History Podcast at iHeartRadio 430 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 2: dot com, and you can find us on various social 431 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 2: media at missing History. Whatever's happening on your weekend, you know, 432 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 2: I hope it's great. If you're going to take a 433 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 2: little trip out to a communal, a former communal or 434 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 2: even current communal living situation that's now some kind of 435 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 2: a museum or whatever, I hope that's great. If you 436 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 2: are in such a thing yourself, I hope that's great. Basically, 437 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 2: I hope everything's great. We'll be back with a Saturday 438 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 2: classic tomorrow and something brand new on Monday. Stuff you 439 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 2: Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For 440 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 441 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.