1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: H ah beautiful. If it doesn't work, you're just not 2 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to software radio, special operations, military 3 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: news and straight talk with the guys in the community, 4 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: Army Ranger and Green Beret Jack Murphy Lasagna. Don't get 5 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: any on your Marine Scouts sniper Jason Delgado is just 6 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: something we believe it. I associate that with taste, but 7 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: I like freaking chocolate chi may Why is it flavor? Boring? 8 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: The whole Lively board and now here's your co host 9 00:00:50,320 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: and producer of this operation, Ian Scott l Ye Socrep 10 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: dot Com on Time on Target, Ian Scotto here Jason 11 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: Delgatto with me. Um really enjoyed last episode. By the way, 12 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: with Donnie O'Malley, I I appreciated him getting it out 13 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: on Instagram because I noticed you got on a new 14 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,119 Speaker 1: followers thanks to him and awesome, dude. I'll be honest, 15 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: I didn't realize how big he was. Like I've heard 16 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: of Matt Best, I've seen his stuff. I know Matt 17 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: has a huge following. I was not familiar with Donnie O'Malley, 18 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: and I'm glad you made the introduction. Man big, like 19 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: I said, big fan of all those guys. Um, but 20 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: Donnie O'Malley to me, because I'm huge on commonly a 21 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: lot of people are like, I'm the huge Commy but whatever, 22 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: you know, I'm like huge fans of Will Farrell, you know, 23 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: Chris Tucker guys. Those are guys that, um, you know, 24 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: you can Mike Gaps, you can you can have them 25 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: go and and like in in an impromptu way. They 26 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: can perform an entire set, you know what mean, these 27 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: guys go off script all the time and and they 28 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: provide a lot of comedic gold while they do that. 29 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: And to me, I see that in Donnie O'Malley. That's 30 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: talent right there, Like he's he's legit funny. So that's 31 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: why I thought it would have been awesome to bring 32 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: him on the show. And absolutely and and even checking 33 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: out his videos, he does a great job. Like the 34 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: production value his top notch. But I'm especially excited for 35 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: tonight's guest, which is completely different than uh, something like 36 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: Donnie with Jack Divine coming on. Veteran of the CIA 37 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: from the sixties all the way up to the nineties, um, 38 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,519 Speaker 1: and I mean he's been instrumental in so many moments 39 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: in American history, including the capture of Pablo Escobar, the 40 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: fall of Chile as President Iran Contra, and the fight 41 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: to push the Soviets out of Afghanistan in the late eighties. 42 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 1: So it's like there's so much history there and it's 43 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: always a real honor to talk to these guys. So 44 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: I'm excited for it. Yeah, definitely, Uh, super super intriguing guests. 45 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I've never interviewed someone of this caliber, 46 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: you know, within the intelligence community. This is i mean, 47 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: who else has you know, the jacket this guy has. 48 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: You know, he's got thirty plus years you know, and 49 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: in the CIA. That's pretty crazy. Um. Yeah, looking forward 50 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: to see what he has to say on a lot 51 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: of that today's topics, you know, considering you know, a 52 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: lot of his expertise, you know, ran into uh basically 53 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: trying to ounced you know, um FBI moles and stuff 54 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: like that, that we're selling a lot of information to 55 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: the Russian to the Russian government. So um, I'm sure 56 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 1: he has a lot to say on that. That was 57 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: pretty pretty cool. Yeah, this is similar to you know, 58 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: guests we've had on in the past, but it's been 59 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: a while. Guys like Oliver North or Bob Bear like, 60 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: those are some really big names we've had on, but 61 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: those were actually a couple of years ago at this point, 62 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: So it's cool to get someone else from a background 63 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: like that. Um, big announcement to make Jack Murphy, as 64 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: you guys know, hasn't been here for the past couple 65 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: of months and was very secretive about a show that 66 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: he was working on, couldn't really talk about it. Well 67 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: we can now because I think after the Hollywood Reporter 68 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: has reported on you, uh, it's fair game to talk about. 69 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: So here's the big announcement from the Hollywood Reporter Discovery 70 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: and that's as in the Discovery Channel investigating inventor Nicola 71 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: Tesla's mysterious death in new series. The series will also 72 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: feature an engineer and his team as they build and 73 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 1: test fire one of Tesla's most dangerous inventions, a weapon 74 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: of mass destruction called the Death Ray. Discovery Channel is 75 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: investigating the mysterious circumstances surrounding the death of inventor Nicola 76 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: Tesla amid World War Two. The tentatively titled Tesla will 77 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: also feature an engineer and his team as they build 78 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: and test fire one of Tesla's most dangerous inventions. A 79 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: weapon of mass destruction called the death Ray. In nineteen three, Tesla, 80 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: who has been called the man who invented the twentieth century, 81 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: was found dead in a hotel room. His safe was 82 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: cracked open and his research was missing. In the FBI 83 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: to classify two hundred fifty documents that provided new sight 84 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: into Tesla's work and final days. The files revealed new 85 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: information about the Death Ray and showed that world superpowers, 86 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: including the US, Soviet Union, and Access powers, were all 87 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: interested in the weapon. In the new series, military investigator 88 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: Jack Murphy and Tesla historian Cameron Prince travel the globe 89 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: hunting for information about Tesla's and innovations and the research 90 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: that may have gone missing from his safe. The places 91 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 1: they visit include Tesla's last standing American laboratory in Shoreham, 92 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: New York, on Long Island, his first American lab in Colorado, 93 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: and Serbia, his homeland. Murphy and Prince interview a wide 94 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: range of people, including a rare conversation with Tesla's closest 95 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: living relative. They also examined, never before seeing hand drawn 96 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: sketches and calculations for the Death Ray that we're completed 97 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 1: by Tesla himself. Additionally, Engineer Aaron Kasto and his team 98 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: will build a prototype of the death Ray. If they 99 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: can construct and operate this fatal weapon, it might provide 100 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: a motive for order. Tesla's Death Ray could have swung 101 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: the balance of power in World War Two. The world's 102 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,679 Speaker 1: superpowers would have been in a race to get the plans, 103 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: or at least keep them out of the hands of 104 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: their enemies. So here's all the info. The new series 105 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: debuts on Discovery at ten pm East on Tuesday, January second, 106 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: so that's right around the corner. It will be preceded 107 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: by a special air in December twenty second that highlights 108 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: Tesla's work and it has contributed to communication and transportation technologies. Uh. 109 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: The series also will air on Science Channel on Monday nights. 110 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: Starting January eight, all episodes will be available on Discovery Go. 111 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: And I'm really psyched for this, and I'm really excited 112 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: for Jack Murphy getting this opportunity. And I knew from 113 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 1: the very beginning the shows about Tesla. But you know, 114 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: when you sign these contracts with TV channels, you have 115 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: to be pretty tight lipped event and these nondisclosure agreements, 116 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: and you know you can only just say, oh, we're 117 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: working on something pretty cool. You guys will have to 118 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: just wait for a couple of months and trust me, 119 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: it's now. You would think to like the people who knew, 120 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: you know, Jack Murphy, they're like Nicola Tesla, the guy 121 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: who helped invent the radio. Why you you know, you 122 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: think of Jack Murphy doing like a special operations show 123 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: and this is not it. But it's cool. It's gonna 124 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: show his versatility. I think, yeah, definitely. And like I said, 125 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: Tesla's one of the most intriguing minds of our history, 126 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: you know, right there with Albert Einstein. I mean, he 127 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: was working on a lot of innovative and I would 128 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: I would see why this would be such a controversy. 129 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: I mean, he was working a lot of a lot 130 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: of innovations that would have helped mankind, like powerless electricity. 131 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: That was one of the biggest things he was working on, 132 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: where he was constructing these huge towers and out of 133 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: nowhere he would just shut down, and I guess all 134 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: funding for that was pulled from him. So there's a 135 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: lot there's a lot of controversies surrounding his life in 136 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: general for the things that he was doing as far 137 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: As is a progression of humanity. So yeah, I think 138 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: it's gonna be great. And Jack Murphy, Uh, you know, 139 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: he's been missed on the podcast. People love hearing you, 140 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: but people love hearing Jack. They're used to Jack, so 141 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: they're like, where is this dude? And that's the reason 142 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: why he'll be back. Guys look back in January and 143 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: we'll go back to the month on, month off thing. 144 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: And I like it, man. I think you guys both 145 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: bring a different flavor to the show. Um, before we 146 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: get too emails, I was going to say that Jason 147 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: correctly predicted Alabama's Senate race that Roy Moore was gonna lose. 148 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: I was incorrect. I mean, you know you could have 149 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: been blind and seen that. You know. I credit to you, 150 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: credited to you watching a lot more news than me. Yeah, 151 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: And like I said, it's just it was what you 152 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: were very But what you were asking the people of 153 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: Alabama to overlook wasn't something like a sexual assault allegation. 154 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: It was a child on the station on allegation. You know, 155 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: So whether it's still allegation, but whether the potential for 156 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: it to be true, it is just no one wants 157 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: to deal with that. You know, even if it could 158 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: have been totally false and drummed up, it doesn't matter. 159 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: The point is what if it could have and true. 160 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: The people are, they're they're not going to live with 161 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: themselves if they you know, they I don't know how 162 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: they could live with their consciousness if they knew that 163 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: they helped put someone like that, you know in the 164 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: Senate razor thin victory though I think under two percent, right, 165 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: I mean, it could have gone either way. And and 166 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: actually I think they're waiting there also he put a 167 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: hold on um actually confirmating Yeah, exactly so. Um, so 168 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: he's waiting for the military and the overseas ballast to 169 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: come in. So, but twenty thousand is a big number. 170 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: I don't see that many coming in. I don't know, Yeah, 171 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: but we'll see. Maybe he's hopeful. Yeah, I I think 172 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: that you know, he lost fair and square. It is 173 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: what it is. But you were correct. Um. We have 174 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: one quick email to get to really quick note before that. Um, 175 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: we have now ended our contract with mid Roles. So 176 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 1: what that means for you guys is like a lot 177 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: of the libraries we're doing we're no longer under contract for, 178 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: and we're gonna be really selective about advertisers coming in 179 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: in the future because mid role is kd of an 180 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: aggregate who worked with us and like I think literally 181 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: hundreds of other podcasts or maybe dozens. Um. Yeah, we 182 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: decided that we're going to do that independently. What that 183 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: means for you guys is lessel Hive reads. I'm sure 184 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,719 Speaker 1: you'll be happy about that. Um, and we're gonna bring 185 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: in some really cool advertisers foren of just great products, 186 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: great services. Yeah, relative relative content and advertising. You know. Yeah, 187 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 1: I think in the future that could be incorrect here, 188 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: but I know there's been talks with like Harley Davidson 189 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: maybe USA, a stuff like that that that you guys 190 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 1: are really gonna dig. Um. Yeah, we're only going to 191 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: bring in products that were like behind, not that we 192 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: were in in the past, but uh, it was getting 193 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: a little excessive with the libraries and we're just like 194 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: we're switching things up a bit. Uh. Really quick email 195 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: before Jack Devine. I had to mention this and I'm 196 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,239 Speaker 1: sure you'll like it. Interesting thing this comes from Steve Ruttledge, 197 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: and I swear that name sounds very familiar. What do 198 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: I know that guy? Yeah, Steve Ruttledge man what they 199 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: were Facebook friends? Man's a marine another devil Doug. Yeah, 200 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: well here's what he said. It's not really question, more 201 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: of a comment. But he says, gents visited New York 202 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: City and stopped in it Emmett's great place, and the 203 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 1: guinness was really good. Thanks for the tip. Loved seeing 204 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: the books on the walls, love the show semper five. 205 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: He ends the note with, and yeah, if you're ever 206 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,319 Speaker 1: ever in New York City, stopped by emmit O Looney 207 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: is in the heart of Time Square. That's not a 208 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: paid advertisement. We just we love what he does. And 209 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: by the way, not to be confused with oh looneys 210 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: because his father owns a bar. This is em Loonies, 211 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: which is actually right by Sirius sex sem It's right. Yes, 212 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: in seven, I believe. Yeah, so visited. You'll see Jason's 213 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: book on the wall. You'll see Brandon's book on the 214 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: wall in Tonto's um. I think Drew Dwyer has his 215 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: articles article, Leo Jenkins, Marty Scoveland. It's all and and 216 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: of course Andrew will Cow who really made the introduction 217 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,599 Speaker 1: for all of us. I know that it happened hot 218 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 1: Andrew was walking by that bar one day and he 219 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:05,719 Speaker 1: was like, Hey, you're Andrew Wilkow. Listen to your show 220 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: all the time. And from there we made a lot 221 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: of connections. Emma O, Looney Bar, None and the best 222 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: establishments to be in. Yeah. Yeah, So hit it up 223 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: if you get a chance. Um, unless you have anything 224 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: else to say, I think we'll get over to Jack Divine, 225 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 1: let's do it. So joining us for the first time 226 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: on the podcast. We're really excited Jack Divine, veteran of 227 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: the CIA from the sixties into the nineties, instrumental in 228 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: so many moments of history around the world. Um, and 229 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: it's just so much background there and I'm looking forward 230 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: to getting into it. Uh. Founding partner of the ark 231 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: And Group LLC and also the author of the latest 232 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: book Good Hunting and American Spy Spymaster's Story. You could 233 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: also check out the ark And Group online at the 234 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: ark and Group dot com. And pleasure and honor to 235 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: have you on, sir Well. It's great to be with you. 236 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: So the first thing I'd like to get into is 237 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: just your background in the CIA and how you got 238 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,719 Speaker 1: involved in the CIA, just the origin of that. Well, 239 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: I actually was teaching High School in Delaware County, Pennsylvania. 240 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: You know, I've done graduate work and tracking international relations 241 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: and was interested in it. But when I joined, I 242 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: joined in the sixty seven to give you some ancient timeline. UM, 243 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: very few people talked about CIA. It wasn't a news story. 244 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 1: Today every major newspaper has two people to just cover CIA. 245 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: But back when I was there pop up in the 246 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: screen once in a while, Bay picks, and then it disappeared. 247 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: I didn't know anybody in the CIA, didn't have any 248 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: links into the elites or whatever of the the network 249 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 1: and CIA. And my wife gave me a book. It 250 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: was called The Invisible Government and it was, you know, 251 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: an a tackle in the CIA. By today standards, it 252 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: would be a cream puff. You know how they overthrew 253 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: the government, you rolled everything, which is true. But I 254 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: read it thought, wow, what an interesting line of work. 255 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: So when penns had incol and then I actually sat 256 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: down and wrote a letter, there's no CIA, Washington, d C. 257 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: And I want to behold a few months later I 258 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: had a letter saying, go to twelfth and Chestnut and 259 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: meet this guy and we'll see whether we like like 260 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: your your look. So that's how it started. I mean 261 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: I was probably one of the least informed, least prepare 262 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: people that entered CIA and its history. At least I 263 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: felt that way. But in retrospect and let me cap boss, 264 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: we can have more questions, for sure. But you know, 265 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: when I did the book and you look back on it, 266 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: it's sometimes in life things play right for you. And 267 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: I actually feel my DNA whatever is in it. I 268 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: really felt like I fit there, and uh, and I 269 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: think they felt I fit as well, since they didn't 270 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: drive me out. But I really do feel by as 271 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: serendipitous as the entry into the CIA was. Uh, you know, 272 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: we all have a bit of destiny, and I think 273 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: somehow I ended up in just the right place. Wouldn't 274 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: change it. No second thoughts about my time in there 275 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: are no angst about my experiences. That's amazing, that really 276 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: is I just considering that, you know, you were inspired 277 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: through your wife from a book and then from there 278 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: just spawned off into an entire career. That's that was 279 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: as extensive as yours. Super super amazing. Um. One of 280 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: the one of the problems today is it's such a 281 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: structured application process. I mean, I actually talked to people 282 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: in the process of going in and I felt I 283 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: was being looked at it like a small personal thing. Today, 284 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: you know, they get a hundred thousand applications. It goes 285 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: into computers, and I think people get thrown out that 286 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: are probably really good candidates never get the first shot 287 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: because it's you know, your computer numbers didn't add up. 288 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: It's a fact. It's a factor of the time we 289 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: live in. But I really feel we uh in circumstances. 290 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: It's not anything could be rolled back. I feel today 291 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: that it's really hard for people to break through the 292 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: door and it's a shame numbers don't tell the whole story. 293 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: Well that's amazing. So coming up in the CIA, I'm 294 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: sure initially you have a bunch of lacklustered you know, 295 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: jobs or responsibilities. I think I read you were analysts 296 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: or documentalyst or something like that initially, and um, what 297 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: was your first actual assignment that you were physically on 298 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: the ground where you had to you know, work contacts 299 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: and you know, recruit uh sources and stuff like that, Like, 300 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: what was the first time I ever did that? So 301 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: I joined the agency by the time I got through training, 302 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: which is almost a year, and then Spanish language and 303 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: then I did what I would you would call interim 304 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: assignments on check desk and a couple other rotations. But 305 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: I ended up in Latin America, which is kind of 306 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: an interesting story. I want to go back. I do 307 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: so little that I thought when we were coming out 308 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: of the career training program, out of the famous farm 309 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: and you decide where you want to go, I thought, well, 310 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: I should go to Russia. That's where the Communists are. 311 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 1: And so everyone had a career counselor so I went 312 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: to this fellow. Your audience can't see this, but I'm 313 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: six foot five. I don't really get the visual the 314 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: visual profile. So the guy that was interviewing me, he 315 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 1: was in the Bay of Pigs, and his name is 316 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: Jerry Droller and he actually was a veteran a World 317 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: War Two and worked with the resistance in France behind 318 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 1: the lines against the Nazis and organized resist and tough. 319 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: You know, smoke had a cigar hanging out of his 320 00:17:58,040 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: mouth all the time. And he said, oh, no, no, 321 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: you're you're too tall. You you can't go to Russia 322 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: and be a spy. And I thought, well, yeah, I 323 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: guess I guess he's right. So he walked me over 324 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: the Latin American Division, and I ended up in Latin 325 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: American Division. I don't wait a minute. That was my 326 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: too call for Russia. But somehow six foot five I 327 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: fit in in Latin America. You know, I think he 328 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: was a recruiter for Latin America, so he was looking 329 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: for warm bodies. But I come back to this hidden 330 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: hand in people's career. I mean in Russia back in 331 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: those days, it was sort of dull because they were 332 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: all over you all the time. So it wasn't meeting 333 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: recruiting and action. It was spending days finding thirty seconds 334 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: where you could drop a rock with a note in 335 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: it for some spy. In my case, I ended up 336 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: in Chile. And for those of your members of your 337 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: audiences either studied Latin American history or history in general 338 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: were around in those days. I went to Jillian seventy 339 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: one when President Salvadora and he had been elected, and 340 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: the White House in the form of Henry Kissinger and 341 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: Richard Nixon saw him as the next Castro. And then 342 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: you know, he came in and power came into power, 343 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: and a coalition included communists, so they referred to it 344 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 1: as a Red Sandwich the Chile and at one end, 345 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: and Cuba and the other. And they decided that they 346 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: want to block the government. They wanted to overthrow it. 347 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: The CIA said that's not going to work. It's not 348 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 1: enough time between the election and as inauguration. They said 349 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: to give it a try. This is documented by the way. 350 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: You won't catch a secret today. I'm giving you context 351 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: and I'm sharing with the things that this is all document. 352 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: They spent a year investigating this thing. But what happened 353 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: that it didn't work out, and then the CIA was 354 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: instructed not to overthrow him, but to do everything you 355 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: could to make life difficult and protect the democratic institutions. 356 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: And that was sort of my job. But as time 357 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: went by, idy of its own weight as turable policy. 358 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: Very similar to Venezuela today. It's almost a mirror image 359 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: of how Madero is handling the situation there. And in 360 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: the end, the Second Army policies really drove it to 361 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: the brink. And to make a long story short, Indy 362 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: was overthrown and it was my agent who had the 363 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: first report, but not the diminishtion with myself. I was 364 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: out at lunch developing. You know, some contacts and my 365 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: agent couldn't find me, and he was going to go 366 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: to the airport and get out of town. So I 367 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: found my wife at SOCI Actually was the first person 368 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: to get information an American and official format that the 369 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: government was going to be a withdrawn. So you can 370 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: see in the files and the public record as a 371 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: cable that I sent in based on Pats meeting with 372 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: this fellow and saying that the the Navy will start 373 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: in radio I group Twitter will come on at seven 374 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 1: and Andy is gonna be over the round. And it 375 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: was sent as a critic message for those that aren't 376 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: familiar with it. When you send a priority or immediate flash, 377 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: but then you get the critic, it just rides overall communications, 378 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: knowing gets a chance to filter it. So it went 379 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: from the hands of the Chief of Station and Santiago 380 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: right into the White House saying that the coop was 381 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 1: going to come the next day. So that was that 382 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: was my first assignment, and I think the extraordinary thing. 383 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: And again I don't want to harp with my naive 384 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: to tell you, but you know, I lived in parochial 385 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 1: Delaware County, and next thing you know, I'm sitting in 386 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: a country my first day, there is a hundred thousand 387 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: Communists marching on the street with flags, and you know, 388 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: they threw a bomb. They drew a bomb at the 389 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: house next to me, Missboo, off the back of the house. 390 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: I mean, it was it was it was like, wait, 391 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: what happened my summers down at Ocean City, New Jersey? 392 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: And so it was. It was rather rather exciting, rather dramatic, 393 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: very painful for the Chilian population because they went from 394 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: the far left extremes and then they know when they 395 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: ended up with Canochet, they had a very repressive government 396 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: for years so and prior to that they had a 397 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 1: long history I think a hundred fifty years of democratic government. 398 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: So for the average Chilian it was a really a 399 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 1: tough two decades. So, but as a foreigner being there 400 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 1: and being in the middle of the political fray and 401 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: meeting with some of the most important movers or shakers 402 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: on both sides, because I had agents that were in 403 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: the Communist Party, but I also had players that were 404 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: very well tied into the stable wishment there. So it 405 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: was really quite interesting. Did um so did you? Did 406 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: you work a lot of contacts that had that fluidity 407 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 1: between because it was a communist. I would imagine that 408 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: fluidity between um, what was happening in South America, that 409 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: where we were dealing with, and what transition later on 410 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: to the Mujahadeen being supported to fight Russia and stuff like. 411 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: Was that a effortless transition for you or was it 412 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: something that you had to just pick up and started 413 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: over again. Well, there was a for your audience, there 414 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: was a huge gap. I left Chili in September of 415 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: UH seventy three, and then I spent one to five 416 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: assignments abroad, three of them is chief of station in 417 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: Latin America and then in mid carest. So what I'm saying, 418 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: there's a lot of time between May and then, UM, 419 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: I decided I want to change area. That was I 420 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: don't want to become just a Latin American specialist at 421 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,199 Speaker 1: that point. And this is a long story, but I 422 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: was uncomfortable with our program in Central America, not because 423 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: I didn't want to resist the uh sundaista's um my views. 424 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 1: We should have been inside and there there were some 425 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: of my friends thought they should be organizing the conscious 426 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: on the outside, and look, you know, people are entitled 427 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: to the review. But I voted with my fate and 428 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 1: I said, well, I'll go to the Middle East. That'll 429 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: be a new place. So instead of leaving the frying 430 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: fan into a cushy job, I ended up leaving Latin 431 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: American became the chief of the Iranian branch. And for 432 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 1: those who crack the Middle Eastern history, and we had 433 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: the disastrous around Contra Yes, Sir, which I was thrown 434 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: in the middle of that. And again we could spend 435 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: hours talking and I thought it was the idea of 436 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: trading hostages for missiles was still found. It I understand 437 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: why it happened. Again, this might be of interest to 438 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,880 Speaker 1: your readers, but I mean to your listeners. But there 439 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: was the CIA chief and beyrout named William Buckley, the 440 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: first class guy, and it was a very dangerous place 441 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: beyrout noose days and he was kidnapped at the time, 442 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: and the twirtured and killed. But what people don't realize 443 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 1: there were videos of that. They were sent back to 444 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: CIA headquarters and the director at the time was Bill Casey, 445 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: and he would take them down and he and President 446 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: Reagan would look at these horrible things, and just so 447 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: they didn't know he was dead yet, he would just 448 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: have to do everything to get Buckley and the other 449 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: hostages out. So I think there they were well intentioned. 450 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: But the problem once you start dealing with hostages and 451 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: trading then and this is what actually happened there in 452 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: the country in case, they they released three and then 453 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 1: they kidnapped three more, so you know, you it's a 454 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 1: a vicious circle. So the training was I thought, bad policy, 455 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: but you know, people get elected as president, they can 456 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: make bad policy. It's the Americans decision. They put them in. 457 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 1: They decide it's not ci h job to do policy. 458 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: So if that's what they wanted to do. But the 459 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 1: guy that brought the deal together as an Iranian named 460 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: Kubani Far and we had a file at least two 461 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: inches thick of how bad he wasn't, how much of 462 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: a fabricator, and that he failed to polygraph. So they 463 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: had the person putting together had no confidence in either. 464 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,479 Speaker 1: And I was still junior. It was probably somewhere in 465 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: the range of lieutenant colonel in those days in the system, 466 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,360 Speaker 1: and I thought, oh, well, you know this is this 467 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 1: is so bad it will never happen. Well, uh, you know, 468 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: they came to a certain points, so look, we know 469 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: you don't like this, but can you organize the flights 470 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: and the missiles and all of this. So I did, 471 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: but I thought, you know, this is such a bad 472 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: I'm never going to happen anyway. So I learned a 473 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: really important lesson. And there was a Secretary of State, Schultz, 474 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: who once said, no bad idea dies in Washington. He's 475 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 1: absolutely right. So this thing didn't die of natural consequences. 476 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: So when I would brief agency officers going overseas to 477 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: take command to post, I would say, if you see 478 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: a dumb idea, you know you drive a spike to 479 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: its heart. He can't hope that it dies. Long story 480 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: short on this. The problem evolved when I was charging. 481 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: I'm just giving you theretical numbers because I think you're 482 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 1: still classified, but a million dollars for one of the missiles, 483 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: but the Iranians were paying two million, and not known 484 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: to me, the other million was being funneled back into 485 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: the countries in Central America. Somebody thought that was a 486 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: brilliant idea, and leaving the idea side the Congress the 487 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 1: year before it said no money, no U S money 488 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: can go to supporting the countrys. So this was a 489 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: violation of law that became the problem for the Regulan 490 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: administration almost brought it down. Uh, and they had all 491 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: the famous trials and CIA people were put on trial 492 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: and not the North and it became, you know, bigger. 493 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: I would say, it's even bigger than Well, it didn't 494 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: bring down Reagan in the end, it did bring the 495 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: Watergate did bring down next but it was almost as 496 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: big and damaging. So when I left that, I guess 497 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: they decided that maybe I had called a few things right, 498 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: and they put me in charge of the task force 499 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: to drive the Russians out of Afghanistan. So that is 500 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: the long arc of how they got from Chile to 501 00:28:55,320 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: dealing with the Mujadine. Out of curiosity, I'm just wondering now, uh, 502 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: if you saw that way as Tom Cruise Action Fleck, 503 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: because I saw it. I thought it was good, but 504 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: I mean you would know better than anyone if if 505 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: it was historically accurate. Well, I didn't see it, but 506 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: it would be the first movie that I've seen. This 507 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: mean Charlie Wilson's Roar. I knew Charlie and traveled with Charlie, 508 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: and you know, the tremendous patriot and the guy who 509 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: did a great service, but it wasn't his war. And 510 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: and he and I had dinner at Sparks Restaurant with 511 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: our wives here in New York, and Sparks is a 512 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: very well where that's where Paul Castiana the Mafias got killed. 513 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: But this appealed the Charlie sent of romance. We're gonna 514 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: eat where the where Mafia Don was killed. So when 515 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: I came in and we sat down, and he said, Jack, 516 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: I know you didn't like the book. You're going to 517 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: hate the movie because he knew what I knew when 518 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: that was, you know, a congressman and a rogue CIA 519 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: do not change history. I mean, I don't care who 520 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: they are. If you're going to have a regime change, 521 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: it's a big government program with a lot of government 522 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: people working together, you know, sergeants, gs, twelves, people in logistics. 523 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a you know, and it is not 524 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: a one person's war. But Charlie was such a wonderful 525 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: property and public relations guy. It's really quite a feat 526 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: to have a war named after it, particularly if it 527 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: wasn't your war. The Stinger, which was a history changing 528 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: to me, one of those points in history, and there 529 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: are relatively few of them where you can say a 530 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: single weapon system changed the course of history. Charlie, if 531 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: you read the book carefully said, I had nothing to 532 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: do with it. But in his office he had an 533 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: expended stinger, a tube and hanging and you know in 534 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: the movie it's you know him and but that's not 535 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: what happened. So I didn't see the Tom Hanks movie 536 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: Tom Cruise. I'm sorry. I was thinking of Tom Hanks close. 537 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: He played Charlie Wilson. So I don't know. I'll have 538 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,479 Speaker 1: to go see what was the what's the theme of it? 539 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: But what what war? Oh, it's a Central America to 540 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: be around Concraus stuff, and yeah, but I think it 541 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: does it deals only with the one aspect of it, 542 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: and yeah, I mean it's it's it's an action primarily. 543 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: You saw it, right, Yeah, I think it's. It was 544 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: aside from that one aspect which we were talking about, 545 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: the the drug drug smuggling, Yeah it was. You know, 546 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: they also highlighted a lot about you know, the money transfer, 547 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: the money moving, and a bunch of things. Weapon weapon 548 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: cashets were flying, the contrast to training grounds in the US, 549 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: stuff like that. I just always like to hear that 550 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: was it accurate? Let me jump in on that the 551 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: drugs are yeah, I mean for the CIA and TIF 552 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: for kind of our codeagues when Escobar metis the mise. 553 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: But I'm on this one point movie aside. I know 554 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: because I've had a friend tell me about the movie. Uh, 555 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: it's very controversial. But the planes that were the CIA 556 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: was not bringing drugs. You know, I'm saying this emphatically 557 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: with not any hesitation or any qualification without flying drugs 558 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: into the United the United States. I mean, it became 559 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: a really hot button issue. There was an article in 560 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: San josein Mercury, you know, all about this, and then 561 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: eventually the journalist was fired because the story turned out 562 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: to be false. But it it lingered and lingered. I 563 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: think the issue might be. First part, I'm positive of 564 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: what might have been. It's the same planes that were 565 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: used to move weapons may have been used by independently 566 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: of the U. S. Government, and the CIA also was 567 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: used as drug running planes. But so it's a mistake 568 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: to loot them together. And I don't want anybody in 569 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: your audience or any audience thinking for a minute that 570 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: the C I A. I mean, we're engage in those activities. 571 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: One of the things that people don't under stand is 572 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: just how regulated the CIA is and how legalistic it is. 573 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I had a lawyer, truely, I'm not exaggerating 574 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: twenty feet for me for the last fifteen years of 575 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 1: my career. Wasn't because I was particularly dangerous. Other people's 576 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: centator jobs had lawyers. But you know, the the agency 577 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: maybe laws across the around the world, but they're the 578 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: laws that are authorized by the US of the Attorney Justice, 579 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: Attorney gentleman, the Justice Department. The US laws are dealt with. 580 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: I can't tell you how judiciously. So the idea that 581 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: this could happen is is far fetched. I don't think 582 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: that story sine very is very helpful, and it continues 583 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: the myth of the rogue CIA. And I would tell 584 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: you the only rogue part of my thirty two years 585 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: and plus the extensive reading I've done in writing books 586 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: and so on, is that one point of the Irun 587 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: country affair, there were CIA people that worked off the books, 588 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: not the leader. You know, it wasn't the CIA is 589 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: an institution, but some folks worked off the books. It's 590 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: the only point, only point in my experience and I 591 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: was responsible for all of the agency's operations back in 592 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 1: the late nineties, so I had visibility. So the idea 593 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 1: of the CIA is a rogue entity is one of 594 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: the Hollywood as. I think in the Tom Cruise movie, 595 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: to be fair, they did depict what you just said 596 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 1: that it was of his own doing. The CIA actually 597 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,399 Speaker 1: hired him to take photos of our areas. I think 598 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: they were saying in the place that's then he on 599 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: his own decided, well he got balled up. He got 600 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: balled up down to South America, and I guess he 601 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: was saying he was forced to, you know, make a 602 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: delivery or two, and then just got into it from there. Well, 603 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: maybe I'll go see it now that you've clarified that, 604 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: because some of this is painful to watch. I mean, 605 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,720 Speaker 1: I don't like Well, it took years to go watch 606 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: a James Bond movie. I sat beside Sean Connery one night. 607 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: That's another story. But somewhere along the line, I finally 608 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,399 Speaker 1: the light bulb offer, so why are you complaining? Look 609 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: at you look in the mirror, and people think that 610 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: people look like James the Sean Connery, I mean, you know, 611 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,839 Speaker 1: and that they're all hum omnipotent, you know. So you know, 612 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,240 Speaker 1: with all your flows, sure you want to be portrayed. 613 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: What why are you fighting this? And it's true when 614 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: you get around to the bottom line, most of the 615 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 1: you know, the James Bond movies, at the end it's 616 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: you know, some British going out patriotically trying to destroy 617 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: the enemy and they have you know, it's all the 618 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: hollywoodization of it. But the bottom line is probably not 619 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: too far off. So I decided that you know, actually 620 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: the mystique is great did by Hollywood. It can be 621 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: very helpful because many of the foreigners that I dealt 622 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: was actually thought that you know, I could leave buildings 623 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: in a single bound. The more they got to know me, 624 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: the more they realized that wasn't true. I think it 625 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: was the I think it's an American made as the 626 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: name of the movie, and it was the story of 627 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 1: the pilot, Barry Seal, And yeah, it got into how 628 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: he was independently doing his own thing on the side, 629 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 1: you know, and still and working for the CIA, and 630 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: he had he used his protection from the CIA to 631 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 1: get away with some of the crappy and he was 632 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 1: doing so that's what it was. But that's how he 633 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: depicted that in the movie. Yeah, that's a credible line. 634 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,240 Speaker 1: But I would just tell you this is not critiquing 635 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: anyone particular, but part of tradecraft, part of the experience 636 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 1: of running operations, is that when you have an agent, 637 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 1: you have to be constantly vetting that agent so that 638 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: you're sure, yeah, that there's not water working both sides 639 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: of the street, that it was reporting he was writing 640 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: reporting to the Cubans. For another. There is a counterintelligence 641 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: to mention to all operations. Now it's not perfect, okay, 642 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: but I'm just saying I would just say to you 643 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: that part of the tradecraft, the professional way that cases 644 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: should be approached is when you're working with foreign governments, 645 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: for example, you're giving the money, you're working with them. 646 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,839 Speaker 1: Often it's very useful to have a unilateral somebody that 647 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: no one knows is working for you keeping an eye 648 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: on them to make sure the weapons are going where 649 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: they're supposed to be going, and the telephone taps aren't 650 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: being used on local politicians instead of uh, terrorists. You know. 651 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: So there is a counterintelligence piece. And if I'm not 652 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: saying whether the story is true or not, but it 653 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 1: sounds like more work should have been done on that. 654 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 1: I agree with that. Um. I think that would be 655 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: a good segue into your experience. Was Um, from what 656 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 1: I read, your experience with FBI moles and you know 657 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:04,240 Speaker 1: building cases are going after them. Can you elaborate on that? Well, 658 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: you know we talked by the very beginning of my 659 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: career when I was, you know, pushing paper around waiting 660 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: to get into the program. And I'm not exaggerating when 661 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,840 Speaker 1: I say seven feet from me sat Rick Games. Rick Games, 662 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 1: for your audience, was the CIA official who during his 663 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: career became a Russian expert and handled some of the 664 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:34,280 Speaker 1: most sensitive cases. And then late, relatively late in his career, 665 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 1: he became a trader and walked into the Russian embassy 666 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: and we could talk about this in more detail, walked 667 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,840 Speaker 1: in and volunteered his services, and in the process of 668 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 1: offering his services that he coughed up the names of 669 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 1: eleven of our agents inside the Kremlin and the Soviet infrastructure, 670 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 1: and all eleven were executed. Now I knew Rick person 671 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: the lake went through his wedding and it is It's 672 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 1: one of those great agonies in life to no personally 673 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: someone you would consider quote unquote a friend or at 674 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 1: least be friendly with that they betrayed their their country. 675 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: So that was the c I A case, so that, uh, 676 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: you know, it was very disturbing to all of us, 677 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: the FBI case when Rick was arrested and put in jail. 678 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: By that point I was at the I think the 679 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 1: number two position at the CIA and um not c 680 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: but in the operational director And at that time we 681 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: knew that AIMS we had lost more agents than AIMS 682 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: could now about, so that there had to be another mall. 683 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: And that is a nightmare and in of itself, and 684 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: some of the people in the agency started wearing buttons 685 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: never again, and it was it's absurd because we're recruiting 686 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,399 Speaker 1: people in there system, They're recruiting in hours. It's part 687 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,319 Speaker 1: of the painful territory. But more importantly, I knew that 688 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: never again was very unrealistic because we knew there was 689 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: them all. So I worked with the FBI. We had 690 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,800 Speaker 1: a number of officers working inside the CIA. We started 691 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: a major man hunt for that mall, and you know, 692 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: we had a lot of leads and again I could 693 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,239 Speaker 1: go into the mechanics for this at some length, but 694 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:42,840 Speaker 1: I left and that was in I think December of 695 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: and when I think back of my career, you say, well, 696 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 1: what did you get done? I mean, obviously a lot 697 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 1: of things. You can think of what we said, what 698 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: was important. I didn't find that mall. So you leave 699 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 1: and you feel mission and completed, but you know, you 700 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: hope somebody follows on on two thousand and four. Turns 701 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 1: out the mole wasn't in CI after all. He was 702 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:13,800 Speaker 1: in FBI, and he was the Near Russia group. And 703 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 1: I'll let the FBI explain why they didn't go hunting there. 704 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 1: But and he worked for I think from the late seventies, 705 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,800 Speaker 1: Off and on, very long story. There's a good movie. 706 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:30,239 Speaker 1: I think it's Betrayal, where I can't remember. It was 707 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: Charles Cooper. I think Cooper's Brad. I'm not going to 708 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 1: go there, but a great actor plays Robert Hansen, this 709 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 1: FBI guy, and they started, you know, we gotta We 710 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 1: got a tip from a source that he was in 711 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,840 Speaker 1: the FBI, and then, as fate would have it, a 712 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:56,960 Speaker 1: KGB guide defected and he brought Hansen's file, but it 713 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,800 Speaker 1: didn't have his name in the file, but it had 714 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:05,920 Speaker 1: a trash bag that Hansen had provided documents which had 715 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,359 Speaker 1: his fingerprints on it, and it had a audio tape. 716 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 1: There was one phone call he made to the KGV 717 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 1: and they recorded it, not the FBI. So when we 718 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 1: when the file was produced, the very senior people the 719 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,279 Speaker 1: FBI sat there and listened to the audio tape and 720 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 1: immediately recognized it was Robert Robert Hansen, but he was 721 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: responsib at the death of another set of very good sources. 722 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: It was a very bad period in the counterintelligence field 723 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:42,239 Speaker 1: in the sense that you know, human sources betrayed some 724 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:49,799 Speaker 1: of our most important agents and with devastating impact. The 725 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,560 Speaker 1: same with you know, Edward Snowden. You know, in all 726 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 1: these contract with these analysts and stuff like that, they think, 727 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 1: you know, potentially what they're doing is not going to 728 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,200 Speaker 1: have that the those consequences, but they do. I mean, 729 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 1: you're talking about quite quite a few people getting killed 730 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 1: over this outing. The difference in the post nine eleven period, 731 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,560 Speaker 1: if you remember, there was an expression connect the dots. 732 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,399 Speaker 1: I never liked the idea because but it's catchy. I mean, 733 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,080 Speaker 1: everyone immediately gets connecting dots, you know. So the problem 734 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,280 Speaker 1: with connecting the dots you have to have good dots 735 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 1: to start with, which is one task, but the other 736 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,279 Speaker 1: thing is you can start connecting dots. You increase your 737 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,840 Speaker 1: vulnerability when you have a compromise. So the world we 738 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: live in today with the high technology, I mean if frankly, 739 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,840 Speaker 1: if aims or handsome, we're sitting in c i A. 740 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,560 Speaker 1: In this age of computers and centralization of data, I mean, 741 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: they might have been able to take every agent in 742 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 1: the building. So Snowden was sitting at a hub. It was. 743 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,480 Speaker 1: And what's interesting about Snowdon is there's similarities with some 744 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: of the top traders and personality traits. And I'll go 745 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,239 Speaker 1: go there in a second. But he was sitting there 746 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,760 Speaker 1: as a very junior person I think a GS twelve 747 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: for the non government types that might be listening, I 748 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:16,080 Speaker 1: mean that that would be like a lieutenant in the military, right. 749 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: And so he was there was a technical job, but 750 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: everything happened to be going going through him, and he downloaded. 751 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:26,759 Speaker 1: He had no idea how much he downloaded. It was, 752 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 1: you know, knew some of it was good. And the 753 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 1: interesting thing about them is uh and this is make 754 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,800 Speaker 1: a description of traders in general. One of the common 755 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 1: traits among them is that they have a very big ego. 756 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:46,359 Speaker 1: They have to think they're very smart, smarter than everybody else. Uh, 757 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,799 Speaker 1: and the narcissistic in that sense. But what they and 758 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,239 Speaker 1: some of them are actually quite smart. But the other 759 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: trait they have is a personality flaws and underperformed. They're 760 00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,719 Speaker 1: lady see, intellectually lace. In other words, I'll do a 761 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: because I like it, but I'm not going to do so. 762 00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 1: The school records aren't particularly good. They always are under performing. 763 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 1: Well when you join the government, joined the military, if 764 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,880 Speaker 1: you're an underperformer, your career will go forward, but at 765 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,439 Speaker 1: a slower rate. So when you get further into your career, 766 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:21,640 Speaker 1: there's a big gap between where you are and where 767 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 1: your peer group is. And so in the case of 768 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 1: the Games or Snowden, you know, they were moving at 769 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:32,160 Speaker 1: a very slow rate. And most people, really their defection 770 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,960 Speaker 1: is based not so much on some political issue, but 771 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,040 Speaker 1: the fact that your career, and they blame the career, 772 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,799 Speaker 1: not under their under performance in LAS, and they blame 773 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,920 Speaker 1: it on the system. So I think it's some degree 774 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: you see that now. I don't believe that Snowden was 775 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:52,040 Speaker 1: an agent at the beginning. I think you know, he 776 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:59,920 Speaker 1: had these sets of um this functionality or man to 777 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,319 Speaker 1: system and wanted to get even with the system. But 778 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:09,080 Speaker 1: once you travel and take refuge in the Soviet Union, 779 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:15,120 Speaker 1: your food, who you meet, your job, everything amount, you're 780 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 1: totally in a system that has controls your entire life. 781 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:23,240 Speaker 1: You are no longer free. So your behavior, your behavior, 782 00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 1: you might as well be an agent of influence because 783 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 1: you're doing You can only do things that are consistent. 784 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 1: So whether he was an agent at the beginning is 785 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 1: a very good academic thing to sort out. At some point, 786 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,759 Speaker 1: the Russians would have been extraordinary lucky if they can 787 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,799 Speaker 1: found Snowdon and recruited him. So I don't believe that's 788 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,719 Speaker 1: the case, but I do believe today he's under their 789 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,880 Speaker 1: their influence. And you know, I would just say that 790 00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 1: he's a pope of the intelligence system. So I know 791 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:56,839 Speaker 1: that all those that are believe that the Internet ought 792 00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,200 Speaker 1: to be open and free and no tre and totally 793 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:02,759 Speaker 1: transparent and and find him heroic. I would just say 794 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,439 Speaker 1: he did tremendous billions of dollars of damage to put 795 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,640 Speaker 1: lives at risk. And I don't think it was for 796 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:13,320 Speaker 1: a superior cause. I think it was for personal interest. 797 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,640 Speaker 1: I definitely agree. Um, I don't know. I also accredited 798 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:23,800 Speaker 1: or a credit. A lot of the unstable, uh, unstable 799 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,520 Speaker 1: political atmosphere that we're dealing with right now has a 800 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:28,440 Speaker 1: lot to do with that distrust that you know that 801 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,839 Speaker 1: was out and along with his you know, his disclosures. Um. 802 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,640 Speaker 1: You know one thing that you brought up aside from 803 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 1: all this um gloominess we're talking about. I thought it 804 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,799 Speaker 1: was interesting. I kind of hopefully, hopefully you'll be able 805 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,160 Speaker 1: to elaborate on it, because you had a really long 806 00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:48,120 Speaker 1: career in a very tough industry and it sounds like 807 00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,919 Speaker 1: to me your wife was extremely supportive of you every 808 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,239 Speaker 1: step of the way, even to the introduction of the 809 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 1: industry or the field. Um. And then you said also 810 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,680 Speaker 1: in Chile, he said she received the news of the 811 00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:00,960 Speaker 1: president as well. Right, So I assume she was there 812 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,360 Speaker 1: with you and working with you, you know, like, you know, 813 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,600 Speaker 1: just helping you out. You know, what was that the case? 814 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,279 Speaker 1: And can you elaborate on this? A lot of people 815 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:11,279 Speaker 1: that have long career, the wives, you know, are kind 816 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:15,440 Speaker 1: of I think that's a great, great subject and hopefully 817 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,120 Speaker 1: we'll be uplifting. I wasn't trying to have it down 818 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:21,440 Speaker 1: or there, because I think there's two ways of looking 819 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:23,759 Speaker 1: at this, I mean, if you look at the the 820 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:25,920 Speaker 1: Aimes case, what it does tell the American people. As 821 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:27,880 Speaker 1: we were doing our work, there were do you know 822 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,200 Speaker 1: a dozen people that we had a strategically placed so 823 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:37,239 Speaker 1: um and yes, being traders, but it's part of the 824 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,239 Speaker 1: it's part of the business. But we also, you know, 825 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,319 Speaker 1: the high note in the context of this is we 826 00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,840 Speaker 1: did get the Russians out of Afghanistan. So let me 827 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,239 Speaker 1: not leave that part of the story. And because I 828 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,880 Speaker 1: actually spent most of my life and say I a 829 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,920 Speaker 1: in a very optimistic frame of mind, but coming to 830 00:48:55,040 --> 00:49:00,000 Speaker 1: my wife Pat Um and I don't know, I hope 831 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,439 Speaker 1: some of your audience understands this. I think I would 832 00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,040 Speaker 1: describe myself as sort of like a wallflower. You know, 833 00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:10,920 Speaker 1: when we first started dating, and Pat's verry effervescent and outgoing. 834 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,320 Speaker 1: So when we would go to cocktail parties. Again, you 835 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 1: wonder how I got into the c I A. We 836 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,919 Speaker 1: first started going out to the cocktail parties and we'd 837 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:24,080 Speaker 1: be meeting Russians in Cubans or her locals and the government. 838 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,080 Speaker 1: We go around the party and Pat would be Jack, 839 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,480 Speaker 1: you come over here, give this guy your card. Well, 840 00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,160 Speaker 1: by the way, we'd like to have you come to 841 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:35,200 Speaker 1: the coffee. So she was the spark plug of interperson relationships. 842 00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:37,680 Speaker 1: Now I would like to think over time, you know, 843 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:39,799 Speaker 1: I learned things and I think I've got I got 844 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,320 Speaker 1: better at it and over smoother in my in a relationship. 845 00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:46,920 Speaker 1: But I really got to push there um and she 846 00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 1: was extremely supportive because it's one of these things, well 847 00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:51,719 Speaker 1: what do you do today? There, I can't tell you 848 00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,480 Speaker 1: what I did today? We are going tonight. Well you know, 849 00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:56,480 Speaker 1: I'd like to tell you, but you know, so it's 850 00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:58,840 Speaker 1: you have to have a very supportive wife and what 851 00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,839 Speaker 1: your audience may up be aware of. Early in our 852 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,480 Speaker 1: career we had five children, and later in their career 853 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:06,080 Speaker 1: we had one more. So we have a we have 854 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,600 Speaker 1: a clan of six kids and now just another grand 855 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,799 Speaker 1: it's the number four team. We were moving clan. So 856 00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,200 Speaker 1: but I want to tell you this one story about it, 857 00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:21,279 Speaker 1: which I find fascinating. So I described how tense the 858 00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,000 Speaker 1: situation was getting in Chili and you could feel the 859 00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:27,600 Speaker 1: country fallen apart, and I was concerned that I'd be 860 00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,040 Speaker 1: trapped in the embassy, should be home with the kids. 861 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,359 Speaker 1: So one Sunday afternoon, I said listen, Pat, in a 862 00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,759 Speaker 1: case of emergency, you know what I'm gonna do is, uh, 863 00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,080 Speaker 1: let's put the sofa. Will slide the sofa over here. 864 00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,120 Speaker 1: Now you kneel down. Now here's a salt off shotgun. 865 00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,000 Speaker 1: Now you pointed the door of a donain aim at 866 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,360 Speaker 1: the head because you're likely to miss missed as I 867 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:52,880 Speaker 1: got to aim at the chest. So she said, well 868 00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:57,040 Speaker 1: how do you reload this thing? So, if you think 869 00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,440 Speaker 1: about it, I mean, this are young people. This is 870 00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,759 Speaker 1: where you're like the frog in the boiling water. You know, 871 00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,680 Speaker 1: the frog said, you don't really, it's so dangerous, and 872 00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,440 Speaker 1: you think you're inevitable. I must. I needed to have 873 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:10,839 Speaker 1: my head examined that I didn't get my family out 874 00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:12,880 Speaker 1: of there. But somehow you think it's not going to go. 875 00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:17,040 Speaker 1: But Pat undauntedly say, sure, look you're not here. I'll 876 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:20,279 Speaker 1: be here. I'm gonna I'm gonna protect my clan and 877 00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:22,839 Speaker 1: I'm gonna shoot a house. But these guys coming through 878 00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:28,640 Speaker 1: the door. So yeah, uh, And what happened is exactly well, 879 00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,800 Speaker 1: what happened is because I knew the coup was coming. 880 00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:33,759 Speaker 1: I was in the embassy with the tief. We knew 881 00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,520 Speaker 1: it was coming. Next morning, I was locked in the 882 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:39,320 Speaker 1: embassy for five days. Pat was stuck in the house, 883 00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:41,520 Speaker 1: and then we knew they were going to raid. I 884 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,440 Speaker 1: won't go into how we knew that the raid the 885 00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:47,000 Speaker 1: houses in the neighborhood and one of my colleagues in 886 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,440 Speaker 1: the agency. I was able to reach him. He hustled 887 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:53,480 Speaker 1: over and through the dog and the five kids and Patton. 888 00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,560 Speaker 1: They ended up in his house for a week. So 889 00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,920 Speaker 1: SE's one very tough, tough lady, a very smart but 890 00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:08,640 Speaker 1: the other operative word is and a supportive and uh, 891 00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:11,359 Speaker 1: you know they used to stay behind every great man, 892 00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:13,879 Speaker 1: but I would say today behind every spouse there's I mean, 893 00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:18,399 Speaker 1: behind every successful person in my success of little ass. 894 00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,000 Speaker 1: But whatever I was able to accomplish with this, I 895 00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:24,160 Speaker 1: don't imagine I could have gotten it done without the 896 00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:27,560 Speaker 1: unique personality of Pat. That's cool, and that's all about 897 00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,640 Speaker 1: like rising to the occasion. Um getting back to you 898 00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:35,160 Speaker 1: know better shot, I have to tread carefully with her 899 00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:39,359 Speaker 1: getting back to the Iran constras stuff. But focusing now 900 00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:43,680 Speaker 1: more on today. Before we brought Yawn, Jason and I 901 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,239 Speaker 1: were watching this Nikki Hayley speech about what's going on 902 00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:51,800 Speaker 1: with the Iran nuclear deal and kind of the fear 903 00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:55,960 Speaker 1: of where their nuclear program is, which is pretty far 904 00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,640 Speaker 1: along compared to what a lot of people thought. I 905 00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:01,560 Speaker 1: wanted to hear your take on the around nuclear deal 906 00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:06,960 Speaker 1: and Iran's nuclear capabilities. You know, that's a very good question. 907 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,440 Speaker 1: I also, I think it's important to keep it side 908 00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:11,640 Speaker 1: by side with North Korea as we think about things. 909 00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,640 Speaker 1: So in the case of the of the Iran deal, 910 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,920 Speaker 1: I wasn't happy with it, Okay, I thought it was 911 00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:24,680 Speaker 1: softened places there should have been a tougher negotiating. I'm 912 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:26,920 Speaker 1: not talking about right. I think it should have been 913 00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,319 Speaker 1: a tougher negotiation, and that they we wanted it so 914 00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,080 Speaker 1: much and relayed that we wanted so much, and Iranians 915 00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:37,319 Speaker 1: are great negotiators. However, the fact that we're able to 916 00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:40,440 Speaker 1: stall the program. I didn't give it an a. You know, 917 00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:42,400 Speaker 1: most people there's an a for an a. You know, 918 00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:44,920 Speaker 1: there's no so I said, look, it's a See its 919 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,600 Speaker 1: slowed down the program. You know, they don't have a 920 00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,720 Speaker 1: nuclear weapon. It gives you time to work other things. 921 00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:55,640 Speaker 1: And as and uh, you know, as you need a 922 00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:57,680 Speaker 1: regime change, and how do you get a regime change 923 00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:01,000 Speaker 1: while lifting some of the sanctions. Actually, over time, I 924 00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:07,799 Speaker 1: believe allows more democratically focused. That may not be the 925 00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:10,720 Speaker 1: right word, but people that are want a more open 926 00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:15,080 Speaker 1: society there and pressures to build within this system. So 927 00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:18,960 Speaker 1: today it looks like a better deal to me. Um, 928 00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,239 Speaker 1: but right from the beginning, you know, it won't take 929 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:25,239 Speaker 1: them a year. I think a year would be not 930 00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:28,600 Speaker 1: unrealistic until they're able to produce the first bomb. Now 931 00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,480 Speaker 1: look at North Korea, at the speed with which they're moving. 932 00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:35,600 Speaker 1: If we could cut it to the same deal, you know, 933 00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:40,320 Speaker 1: a sea deal, and we could stop the forward movement. Okay, 934 00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:43,480 Speaker 1: both places ned a regime change, and I'm not talking 935 00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:46,360 Speaker 1: about going in and overthrowing them, you know with James Bond. 936 00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:48,879 Speaker 1: I'm just saying that both of those labies you really 937 00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:51,840 Speaker 1: don't solve the problem, and they have a regime change, 938 00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:55,959 Speaker 1: and now use things take time, lots of time, and 939 00:54:56,239 --> 00:55:00,320 Speaker 1: consequently we need some sort of arrangement in North area 940 00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:03,920 Speaker 1: that slows down the process. So I understand the shortcomings 941 00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,279 Speaker 1: of the RAND deal. Asked a certain aspect that I 942 00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:11,719 Speaker 1: found particularly distasteful, but it served a purpose. And I 943 00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:15,000 Speaker 1: think people today in this world we live in, you know, 944 00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,200 Speaker 1: you're either on one side or the other. It's very 945 00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:21,640 Speaker 1: difficult to get you some balance where you can look 946 00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,040 Speaker 1: at some of the good and bad. I put a 947 00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:28,000 Speaker 1: newsletter out quarterly and I have a lot of fun 948 00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:30,200 Speaker 1: doing it and with the help of my staff. But 949 00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:33,520 Speaker 1: I find it's fascinating and maybe I feel like I'm 950 00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,040 Speaker 1: doing something right because after people think I'm too soft 951 00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:38,520 Speaker 1: on the administration, the other field group feels that we 952 00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:40,560 Speaker 1: can wait too hard on it. Yeah, that is truly 953 00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:42,800 Speaker 1: when you know you're doing something well because we experienced 954 00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:45,080 Speaker 1: the same thing. It's soft rap. I feel like people say, oh, 955 00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,839 Speaker 1: you guys love Trump, and then other times they'll be like, oh, 956 00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,640 Speaker 1: you guys are too tough on Trump, so you're doing 957 00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:52,800 Speaker 1: the right I mean, look, I think part of you 958 00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:55,040 Speaker 1: know c I A when you walk through the door. 959 00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:57,040 Speaker 1: I mean they always show the stars, which are the 960 00:55:57,120 --> 00:55:59,640 Speaker 1: heart and blood of and solo the people that have 961 00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:01,840 Speaker 1: died carrying out the mission. But the other side is 962 00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,880 Speaker 1: a very important manter for the organization. It's a quote 963 00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,440 Speaker 1: from the Bible. Doubt that you could get it chiseled 964 00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:11,759 Speaker 1: in the wall today, but back then, the quote from 965 00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,160 Speaker 1: the Bible said you shall know the truth, and it 966 00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:17,560 Speaker 1: will set you free. That's all that's on that wall, 967 00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:22,600 Speaker 1: and that's CIA's mission. Some very smart group of people 968 00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:26,200 Speaker 1: define this mission. Just give us the facts. Don't put 969 00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:29,239 Speaker 1: any spin on it. Your job here is to get 970 00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:32,799 Speaker 1: the facts, and you will. You know that you will 971 00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:36,799 Speaker 1: be completing your mission, so you The CIA can't be 972 00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:41,040 Speaker 1: pro Trump, anti Trump, liberal conservative and has to look 973 00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:45,439 Speaker 1: like amery, and its job has to be developed people 974 00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:50,560 Speaker 1: to think independently and can and can properly waiting and 975 00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:56,160 Speaker 1: try and get balanced and retain and remain unpoliticized. It's 976 00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:58,880 Speaker 1: not an easy task, but the tradition the agency is 977 00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:02,640 Speaker 1: in there. I couldn't tell you the political affiliation I 978 00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:05,239 Speaker 1: could guess people in the office, because it didn't it 979 00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,759 Speaker 1: was unprofessional to look at any of the problems we 980 00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:12,560 Speaker 1: were facing from from a domestic political point of view. Well, 981 00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:15,240 Speaker 1: what you're saying, Seg is right into what I wanted 982 00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:18,440 Speaker 1: to ask you about. Um. You earlier in the interview, 983 00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:21,440 Speaker 1: you said that it's not the CIA's job to create policy. 984 00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:25,640 Speaker 1: And I feel like now more than ever, the CIA 985 00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:29,040 Speaker 1: has become so politicized, with people in favor of the 986 00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:33,560 Speaker 1: CIA or people anti CIA, A big split between Democrats 987 00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:37,000 Speaker 1: and uh, and Republicans and you see all this stuff 988 00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:40,000 Speaker 1: with James Comey, what do you think about the polarization 989 00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:45,200 Speaker 1: and the political uh, politicization of the CIA? Now, ineen 990 00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:50,840 Speaker 1: going into there's a macro issue, and that is our 991 00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:54,280 Speaker 1: society is much more politicized than so many of my 992 00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:59,000 Speaker 1: adult life. But there are differences among you know, when 993 00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:01,360 Speaker 1: one looks at the military or the FBI or CIA. 994 00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:04,800 Speaker 1: Now the FBI is going through it. I think it's 995 00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:06,960 Speaker 1: going to be a very challenging period because of this 996 00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:13,480 Speaker 1: investigation is getting very viburn. FBI guy or even a 997 00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:16,720 Speaker 1: gallery guy in it today, I'd be worried about the 998 00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:19,160 Speaker 1: image of the institution. When you get to c I, 999 00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:21,240 Speaker 1: which I'm gonna, I want to talk to that with 1000 00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:26,000 Speaker 1: a much better sense of confidence of what I what 1001 00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:31,240 Speaker 1: I think we're looking at. I believe that during my 1002 00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:34,520 Speaker 1: time and it continues today, most of the people in 1003 00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:39,240 Speaker 1: c I A joined CIA for mission purposes. They do 1004 00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,840 Speaker 1: their job, they go in, they carry it, and they 1005 00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:47,760 Speaker 1: remain um loyal to I'm going to produce the best 1006 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,640 Speaker 1: product they can that tells the story the way it is. 1007 00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:56,280 Speaker 1: The institutions itself has become a political over the years, 1008 00:58:56,280 --> 00:59:02,240 Speaker 1: has at different times been saj the political pressures externally, 1009 00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:07,320 Speaker 1: you know, the whether it was Chili crisis, the Church Commission, 1010 00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:11,240 Speaker 1: the Iran country of every but I mean at different 1011 00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:16,400 Speaker 1: points it as an institution becomes critical. But inside I 1012 00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:21,360 Speaker 1: believe the institution is largely a political. One of the 1013 00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:23,800 Speaker 1: things I always feel bad about my partners in State 1014 00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:32,720 Speaker 1: Department is that in State Department, hundreds of political employees 1015 00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,920 Speaker 1: come in every time there's a change to the top jobs. 1016 00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:42,520 Speaker 1: Mostly many of the ambassadorships go to political as political favors. 1017 00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,920 Speaker 1: It's amazing that the State Department is able to maintain 1018 00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:49,480 Speaker 1: its core, and I believe it has with that. The CIA, 1019 00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:52,080 Speaker 1: when the director comes out, it's very unusual that they 1020 00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:56,120 Speaker 1: come out with anything more than the general council and 1021 00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:59,640 Speaker 1: maybe two assistants. Though there was the Chief of Latin 1022 00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:03,120 Speaker 1: amer the chief of analysis for Russia that these are 1023 01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:07,120 Speaker 1: all career people. So the place is a career oriented 1024 01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:14,600 Speaker 1: places place, and it frowns on internally anybody being politicized. 1025 01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:22,200 Speaker 1: I will say that in the last few terms, um, 1026 01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:25,320 Speaker 1: I really think we would be better served that the 1027 01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:32,480 Speaker 1: CIA directors were less public and taking not taking public positions. 1028 01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:34,400 Speaker 1: In fact, I would go as far as I think 1029 01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:38,000 Speaker 1: we better be served that the was run by a 1030 01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:42,400 Speaker 1: career professional and we cease and desist from bringing external 1031 01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:46,800 Speaker 1: politically focused people into the agency. And I think that's 1032 01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:50,920 Speaker 1: true with the FBI the same thing. I think these 1033 01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:55,520 Speaker 1: are institutions that I think are better better served by 1034 01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:02,720 Speaker 1: by people that their career is focused on the institution 1035 01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:07,440 Speaker 1: and not on political parties. So that's it's not a 1036 01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,200 Speaker 1: common expression, and probably we were talking about them in 1037 01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:13,520 Speaker 1: the cafeteria when I was at GS twelve, So I 1038 01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:17,560 Speaker 1: do think in this criticized world, political leaderships of these 1039 01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:21,680 Speaker 1: institutions do bring more lightning to them. But the inside, 1040 01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:25,280 Speaker 1: I think the good news for our listeners is that 1041 01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:29,560 Speaker 1: inside and shoulder the shoulder the people in there, I 1042 01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:33,640 Speaker 1: think remain focused on serving their country and doing the 1043 01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:38,080 Speaker 1: best job they can. Well said, um, I was going 1044 01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:40,840 Speaker 1: to ask you tell us about your book Good Hunting 1045 01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:43,760 Speaker 1: and American Spymaster's Story. I'm sure a lot of people 1046 01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:47,280 Speaker 1: in the audience are gonna want to pick it up. Well, 1047 01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:51,920 Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting. Again, I feel like the tumbleweed. 1048 01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:53,760 Speaker 1: You know. I'm now going to tell you how I 1049 01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:56,720 Speaker 1: accidentally got into the writing of a bug I mean 1050 01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:00,160 Speaker 1: the first time when when I left the agents, they 1051 01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:02,480 Speaker 1: had to lift my cover because at a certain point 1052 01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:06,280 Speaker 1: you're a public figure, so therefore you do damage by 1053 01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:08,280 Speaker 1: not saying the guys the c I a guy, so 1054 01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,360 Speaker 1: at a certain point it was public. But still when 1055 01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:13,920 Speaker 1: I came out into the private sector, and I ran 1056 01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:17,040 Speaker 1: a private sector intelligence company. But when I came out, 1057 01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:18,760 Speaker 1: I mean, people ask me what I just said, Oh, 1058 01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:21,680 Speaker 1: I worked in the US government. I didn't talk about 1059 01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:24,800 Speaker 1: what I did. So I went to my dentist, Dan 1060 01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:27,720 Speaker 1: Hype's and broke the chip to tooth, and you know 1061 01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:30,800 Speaker 1: it was a persistent guy said what what do you do? 1062 01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:33,200 Speaker 1: I say, I have a little company. And then he said, well, 1063 01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:35,000 Speaker 1: what did you do before? I work for the US government, 1064 01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:36,959 Speaker 1: So now what did you really do? And I said, well, 1065 01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:39,800 Speaker 1: I mean, what the hell and said, okay, I worked 1066 01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:42,680 Speaker 1: at SEA. Said that's what I tell everybody's a secret agent. 1067 01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:45,400 Speaker 1: That way, they don't ask me to look at your teeth. 1068 01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:48,480 Speaker 1: It says, well, you know, Sam Hypetz could say that 1069 01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:51,040 Speaker 1: he's a secret agent, maybe I can. So I went 1070 01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:55,840 Speaker 1: from barely being able to talk about it too eventually 1071 01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:58,440 Speaker 1: writing a book, and in the process I got a 1072 01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:01,480 Speaker 1: call one day saying, well, you know, we in the 1073 01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:03,600 Speaker 1: c I, I can't talk about Chili, but they're going 1074 01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:05,920 Speaker 1: to release all the documents. To be nice of somebody 1075 01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,720 Speaker 1: out there, would you mind if someone who's a Washington 1076 01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:12,160 Speaker 1: Post interview I said, now I'm going to serve my country. Well, 1077 01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:15,960 Speaker 1: that was like the first big jump into the public arena, 1078 01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:19,640 Speaker 1: and then I became a little by little season with 1079 01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:24,800 Speaker 1: the thought that Americans don't understand. There's not a good 1080 01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:29,040 Speaker 1: understanding of the CIA, and particularly on the action part, 1081 01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:33,080 Speaker 1: not the spying, but the Chili experienced, the run experience, 1082 01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:38,400 Speaker 1: Afghanistan experienced hunting after narcotics. So I thought, you know, 1083 01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:40,320 Speaker 1: there's so much of what I did was in the 1084 01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:45,560 Speaker 1: public domain, unlike what agent did you run late at night? 1085 01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:49,920 Speaker 1: So Good Hunting is about the action part. That you 1086 01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:51,919 Speaker 1: have the spying part and then you have the action part. 1087 01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:54,240 Speaker 1: And I was able to write it and has to 1088 01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:56,600 Speaker 1: go through the c I a not for whether they 1089 01:03:56,640 --> 01:03:59,720 Speaker 1: like what I'm saying, but whether there's any classified information. 1090 01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:03,440 Speaker 1: And I titled it. It took me three years to 1091 01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:06,720 Speaker 1: come up with the title. I point out with some 1092 01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:09,920 Speaker 1: idea of my i Q, but it's Good Hunting and 1093 01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:13,480 Speaker 1: it's the expression. It goes back to the the eighties and 1094 01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:16,760 Speaker 1: British Lord, and I think Kipling used a certain point, 1095 01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:19,320 Speaker 1: and it's instead of break a leg in show business 1096 01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:24,400 Speaker 1: or tally ho and the hunt, it's CIA people and 1097 01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:27,960 Speaker 1: their predecessor organizations. When someone goes out on a mission 1098 01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:31,000 Speaker 1: hunt for bin Landon, it's good hunting, and I think 1099 01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,200 Speaker 1: it captures a business part of his really going out 1100 01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:39,360 Speaker 1: there and hunting for information or today it's hunting for 1101 01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:43,280 Speaker 1: terrorists and for hunting for bad people that want to 1102 01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:46,280 Speaker 1: do damage to our country, either in cyber or somewhere else. 1103 01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:49,440 Speaker 1: So the book is about the action part. The second 1104 01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:51,919 Speaker 1: the one I'm working on now not to tip it off, 1105 01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:56,360 Speaker 1: because then I want, like fellow CIA start typing tonight 1106 01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:58,720 Speaker 1: and trying to get out of animate. It's about the 1107 01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:01,720 Speaker 1: intelligence part, and I think is a lot of material 1108 01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:04,480 Speaker 1: that I think it'd be good for Americans to know 1109 01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:08,480 Speaker 1: about the realities of spy cases. So I'm working on that. 1110 01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:12,280 Speaker 1: So it'll be the two major disciplines, good hunting and 1111 01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:13,960 Speaker 1: yet to be titled because that I want to give 1112 01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:16,800 Speaker 1: up the title just yet will be about the other 1113 01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:20,840 Speaker 1: aspect of working in the dark and meeting agents. That's great. 1114 01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:23,080 Speaker 1: We we gotta get you back on when that comes out. 1115 01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:26,040 Speaker 1: I gotta ask you about this. So you were just saying, 1116 01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:29,439 Speaker 1: how early on no one ever came out and said 1117 01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:31,880 Speaker 1: that they were former CIA and wrote books. And it's 1118 01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:35,600 Speaker 1: like a relatively new phenomenon. Uh. Interesting thing I have 1119 01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:37,760 Speaker 1: to ask you about. And I think Jason could kind 1120 01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:40,720 Speaker 1: of relate to this. Is every now and again there'll 1121 01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:42,320 Speaker 1: be a guy who comes out and says he's a 1122 01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:45,200 Speaker 1: Navy seal or you know, former marine, and they get 1123 01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:48,680 Speaker 1: outed with the CIA. It's a little different, and there's 1124 01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:52,000 Speaker 1: been quite a few cases of people going on Fox News, 1125 01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:55,240 Speaker 1: for example, and saying that they were former CIA. I mean, 1126 01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:57,920 Speaker 1: the one that sticks out in my mind is Wayne Simmons. 1127 01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:01,320 Speaker 1: Wayne Simmons was regularly on Fox News saying that he 1128 01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:06,200 Speaker 1: was a former CIA analyst. I believe Jack Murphy, our 1129 01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:09,400 Speaker 1: editor in chief, early on, way before this guy went 1130 01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,560 Speaker 1: to trial, said to me personally, he was like, I 1131 01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:15,280 Speaker 1: am positive, dude, this guy was never in the CIA. 1132 01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:18,560 Speaker 1: Sure enough, About two years later it comes out that 1133 01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:22,560 Speaker 1: his entire story was bullshit. But unlike when a Navy 1134 01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:26,200 Speaker 1: seal comes out there or Army ranger comes out there, 1135 01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:28,120 Speaker 1: You're not going to get out in public because the 1136 01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:29,960 Speaker 1: CIA is not going to come out and say this 1137 01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:32,720 Speaker 1: guy wasn't in the CIA. And the crazy thing with 1138 01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:36,080 Speaker 1: Simmons was that he was one of the people who 1139 01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:39,120 Speaker 1: advised the Iraq war. He had a quote from Donald 1140 01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:43,160 Speaker 1: Rumsfeld in the book, So you know, it wasn't it 1141 01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:45,960 Speaker 1: wasn't so strange that Fox News vouched for this guy 1142 01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:48,800 Speaker 1: and said, oh, yeah, it's former c I A, uh, 1143 01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:51,160 Speaker 1: what's you're feeling on on these type of guys. He 1144 01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:54,400 Speaker 1: wasn't the only one. I think the media is terbly 1145 01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:58,040 Speaker 1: negligent and they're under tremendous pressure. Becau say it to 1146 01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:02,200 Speaker 1: be tremendous pressure. I was watching one the other day 1147 01:07:02,200 --> 01:07:06,240 Speaker 1: and I want to pick on anybody, but it's it's 1148 01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:08,560 Speaker 1: it's It doesn't even say CIA. It says he was 1149 01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:11,880 Speaker 1: trained by C. Then he might have gone out there 1150 01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:14,760 Speaker 1: for a three week course or went for a seminar. 1151 01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:18,200 Speaker 1: And yet what they're doing is saying, this fellow you 1152 01:07:18,240 --> 01:07:22,640 Speaker 1: should listen to him because he received some unquantified, unqualified 1153 01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:28,080 Speaker 1: training at CIA. So I they have some amazing spokesman 1154 01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:33,120 Speaker 1: on some that were very junior um. You know, I'll 1155 01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:39,280 Speaker 1: come back and say a junior lieutenant and they're talking 1156 01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:41,720 Speaker 1: as if they were the director of CIA, and you know, 1157 01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:43,880 Speaker 1: the president ought to do this, they ought to do that, 1158 01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:45,760 Speaker 1: and you sit there that where the people there's a 1159 01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:49,360 Speaker 1: good New York word, these words. It's like hoodspot, you know, 1160 01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:53,240 Speaker 1: where are you know doing this? No shame? And I 1161 01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:56,360 Speaker 1: went in and watched Simmons tapes and there he is 1162 01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:59,560 Speaker 1: talking convincingly. Is I mean, I think he actually believes 1163 01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:02,160 Speaker 1: in his own online he talks himself into it. Eventually 1164 01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:07,080 Speaker 1: was arrested and convicted of fraud and a real estate deal, 1165 01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:12,680 Speaker 1: but he was on Fox I think forties, sometimes multiple times, 1166 01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:17,479 Speaker 1: and I think there's an obligation. We're seeing more of 1167 01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:20,759 Speaker 1: this in the news. I mean some big stories recently 1168 01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:24,559 Speaker 1: into print paper, print as well, where they're not fetting, 1169 01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:28,040 Speaker 1: you know, they're not fetting their sources. So the problem 1170 01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:31,599 Speaker 1: is the real CIA people, most of them leave undercover 1171 01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:34,840 Speaker 1: and they can't say a word, and the other group 1172 01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:37,040 Speaker 1: really doesn't want to be out there. They're talking and 1173 01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:41,200 Speaker 1: now I go on. But part of my not that 1174 01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:44,080 Speaker 1: I'm totally unique, but so much of what I did 1175 01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:48,599 Speaker 1: became public and I'm public. Um and I'm easy to vet. 1176 01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:52,120 Speaker 1: I mean it's coquecative, so you can figure out, you know, 1177 01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:54,759 Speaker 1: first of all, the book you can't have to have invetted. 1178 01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:58,280 Speaker 1: But the point is, I think they're just there's so 1179 01:08:58,400 --> 01:09:03,240 Speaker 1: much pressure and even if they got burned, I'm not sure. 1180 01:09:03,280 --> 01:09:07,479 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what they're doing anymore. And I years 1181 01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:10,599 Speaker 1: ago I warned a couple of the major networks that like, 1182 01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:13,800 Speaker 1: do you know what you're doing? And you know, it was, 1183 01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:17,360 Speaker 1: you know, the struggle, the shoulders and on they went, 1184 01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:19,280 Speaker 1: the pressures of the job. But I think it's a 1185 01:09:19,280 --> 01:09:25,080 Speaker 1: big disservice. But when someone you know starts talking about 1186 01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:28,720 Speaker 1: policy and and so on, I mean chances are they 1187 01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:30,960 Speaker 1: were nowhere near because at the policy w are a 1188 01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:33,080 Speaker 1: public figure and you should be able to google them, 1189 01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:39,360 Speaker 1: you know. So I'm I'm stunned by it and and annoyed. 1190 01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:44,800 Speaker 1: I tend I have a much lower tolerance nowadays. Something 1191 01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:47,920 Speaker 1: I find myself switching between channels and trying to find 1192 01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:51,760 Speaker 1: a station where it's a political Just go back to 1193 01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:54,160 Speaker 1: giving me the facts. It just give me the facts, 1194 01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:56,920 Speaker 1: don't the spin part and the yelling at each other's all. 1195 01:09:57,479 --> 01:10:04,320 Speaker 1: It's all very intellecturally, Um, dumbing down. Yeah, it's true. 1196 01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:06,080 Speaker 1: We try we try not to do that here. That's 1197 01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:09,800 Speaker 1: that's clear to take our interview. Who could accuse us 1198 01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:12,840 Speaker 1: to that? So I have a question. You know, we 1199 01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:17,880 Speaker 1: spoke about the politicization of government agencies. Um, how do 1200 01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:22,439 Speaker 1: you feel about the accusations on the Mueller Special Council 1201 01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:26,120 Speaker 1: as far as them being more bias or heavy on 1202 01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:34,479 Speaker 1: the the liberal side? Yeah, I must say, Um, now 1203 01:10:34,479 --> 01:10:38,000 Speaker 1: what do you feel about the You know, I think 1204 01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:40,799 Speaker 1: we might have been better served if we had taken 1205 01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:45,640 Speaker 1: some federal judge there was not a political appointee. I 1206 01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:49,439 Speaker 1: I think there was a rush there the name, and 1207 01:10:49,520 --> 01:10:54,760 Speaker 1: I think I think it looks it just has there's 1208 01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:59,919 Speaker 1: too much political atmospherics around. Now. I'm afraid that Mueller's 1209 01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:08,799 Speaker 1: investigation will be it's is credibility will be damaged, and 1210 01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:11,400 Speaker 1: then I think it's gonna where is it's going to leave? 1211 01:11:11,439 --> 01:11:15,360 Speaker 1: It's a mining newsletter, by the way, before, from the 1212 01:11:15,439 --> 01:11:17,640 Speaker 1: very beginning, I really doubt that much is going to 1213 01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:20,640 Speaker 1: come from this. The collusion. I don't see it, I 1214 01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:23,920 Speaker 1: don't hear it. I think, and I've been saying this 1215 01:11:24,040 --> 01:11:26,280 Speaker 1: all along, You're going to get some people nailed, but 1216 01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:29,519 Speaker 1: they're going to be nailed for what we would call 1217 01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:32,600 Speaker 1: a catholic of venial sin, you know. And there you 1218 01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:36,720 Speaker 1: get to Flynn and they'll get some uh you know, 1219 01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:41,479 Speaker 1: penalty of some sort. But you're We've spent all this 1220 01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:44,680 Speaker 1: time and the big pictures, what's happening to our relationship 1221 01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:48,320 Speaker 1: with Russia, what's happening to ourselves and how we deal 1222 01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:50,439 Speaker 1: with each other inside the Congress and the White House, 1223 01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:54,839 Speaker 1: and it's I mean, really, what are we doing here? Um? 1224 01:11:54,920 --> 01:11:57,520 Speaker 1: So I think it's going to be far less productive, 1225 01:11:58,400 --> 01:12:01,040 Speaker 1: and it's so politicized, and I think everybody it's a 1226 01:12:01,080 --> 01:12:04,760 Speaker 1: tar baby. Everybody is getting tar and him. I think 1227 01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:10,759 Speaker 1: Miller comes out somehow tarnished. Every person drug in around 1228 01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:14,479 Speaker 1: them as tarnish nobody. I'm trying to find somebody that 1229 01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:18,120 Speaker 1: looks good in the process. So uh if I thought 1230 01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:20,559 Speaker 1: there was something meaningful that would come out of it, 1231 01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:25,280 Speaker 1: but I'm driving in trouble finding that. So I wish 1232 01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:28,439 Speaker 1: they would gotten this done quickly before what I now 1233 01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:33,040 Speaker 1: see is the the the next several months, I think 1234 01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:36,000 Speaker 1: we're going to see a continuing sliding credibility. And I'm 1235 01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:38,519 Speaker 1: not sure that's that's good. I don't know where that 1236 01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:40,240 Speaker 1: leaves you at the end of the day, other than 1237 01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:44,000 Speaker 1: everybody bickering. The last thing I want to ask you about. 1238 01:12:44,200 --> 01:12:47,120 Speaker 1: You're currently working at the Arking Group, which you are 1239 01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:50,280 Speaker 1: the founding partner in. What work are you doing there 1240 01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:54,640 Speaker 1: for people interested? Well, when we first started standing the 1241 01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:57,360 Speaker 1: ark and myself as a prominent lawyer in New York, 1242 01:12:57,439 --> 01:13:00,800 Speaker 1: he felt that a number of his clients needed the 1243 01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:05,360 Speaker 1: type of information that we talked about earlier. Objective you know, 1244 01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:10,120 Speaker 1: spend and about it's bye to two things, information about 1245 01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:16,800 Speaker 1: people and about companies. And it's relatively easy and relatively 1246 01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:19,920 Speaker 1: the operative word to get information about people in United 1247 01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:22,880 Speaker 1: States and corporations if you're doing business. But if you're 1248 01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:25,920 Speaker 1: going to do business halfway around the world, you know, 1249 01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:30,679 Speaker 1: in the Middle East, in Egypt or China or Russia, 1250 01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:34,439 Speaker 1: I mean not many. There's not many platforms you can't count, 1251 01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:37,320 Speaker 1: there's no database system, and you say, you really need 1252 01:13:37,360 --> 01:13:41,160 Speaker 1: the old fashioned human sources. So I've build a career 1253 01:13:41,200 --> 01:13:45,560 Speaker 1: over the second career, over the past fifteen years identifying 1254 01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:48,720 Speaker 1: a network of people, and we're like a general contractor 1255 01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:54,280 Speaker 1: and we have this but I'm i hope. I'm not overstating, 1256 01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:56,160 Speaker 1: but I think it's what I feel. It's a wonderful 1257 01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:59,920 Speaker 1: network of people that are really good collectives, former intelligence 1258 01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:04,040 Speaker 1: people from different services, and news paper people and lawyers. 1259 01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:06,680 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a whole world out there, and it's 1260 01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:08,880 Speaker 1: one of the things in the government that I felt 1261 01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:12,479 Speaker 1: I missed. You know, it's I hate to meant this, 1262 01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:15,640 Speaker 1: but there's a world out there that collects information. They 1263 01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:18,120 Speaker 1: don't consider it how to consider They need the information 1264 01:14:18,160 --> 01:14:20,800 Speaker 1: to go do a deal. So it's there's a rich 1265 01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:23,400 Speaker 1: hunting ground out there, and what I've tried to do 1266 01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:26,840 Speaker 1: is capitalize on that and give to the private sector 1267 01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:35,400 Speaker 1: equity grooves, banks, individuals information about about countries, but more importantly, 1268 01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:39,080 Speaker 1: more grand your information about specific people of specific companies 1269 01:14:39,439 --> 01:14:41,759 Speaker 1: and the problems are going to encounter in those countries. 1270 01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:44,400 Speaker 1: So I made a nice little business out of it, 1271 01:14:44,439 --> 01:14:47,240 Speaker 1: and it feels like old home, other than the Justice 1272 01:14:47,240 --> 01:14:51,160 Speaker 1: Department doesn't allow me to do anything that's untowards m hmm. 1273 01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:55,720 Speaker 1: It's awesome. Well, hey, we really appreciate coming on. You 1274 01:14:55,720 --> 01:14:57,760 Speaker 1: could visit the ark And Group at the ark And 1275 01:14:57,800 --> 01:15:01,000 Speaker 1: Group dot com, pick up the Jackson latest book. Good 1276 01:15:01,080 --> 01:15:05,400 Speaker 1: hunting and American Spymaster's story. You'd also follow Jack on 1277 01:15:05,439 --> 01:15:11,200 Speaker 1: Twitter at Jack Divine Underscore th G. I really have 1278 01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:14,320 Speaker 1: to say we appreciate giving an hour of your time here, 1279 01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:16,800 Speaker 1: letting us pick your brain. It's been a real honor, 1280 01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:19,360 Speaker 1: and we'd love to have you come back on, hopefully 1281 01:15:19,360 --> 01:15:23,160 Speaker 1: in studio, since we're both here in New York. Well, 1282 01:15:23,200 --> 01:15:26,559 Speaker 1: I would love to do that. And um, it's an 1283 01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:29,120 Speaker 1: honor to be able to talk to the cal audience 1284 01:15:29,160 --> 01:15:32,200 Speaker 1: you have in the so many people serving our country 1285 01:15:32,240 --> 01:15:36,120 Speaker 1: and now and in the past, and it's an honor 1286 01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:37,920 Speaker 1: to be able to share some time with them and 1287 01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:43,120 Speaker 1: to impart um, you know, a view of how the 1288 01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:48,559 Speaker 1: intelligence world operates and to sort of demystify some of it, 1289 01:15:49,360 --> 01:15:52,719 Speaker 1: because I think our citizens serve to understand it better 1290 01:15:52,760 --> 01:15:56,479 Speaker 1: and not just rely on on Hollywood. So thank you 1291 01:15:56,560 --> 01:15:59,439 Speaker 1: very much for the opportunity. Thank you once again, Jack 1292 01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:01,120 Speaker 1: for your ins on a lot of these topics that 1293 01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:04,000 Speaker 1: we covered. Appreciate it and I'm sure when you come back, 1294 01:16:04,160 --> 01:16:07,000 Speaker 1: hopefully it'll be Jack Murphy Man be prepared for him 1295 01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:11,800 Speaker 1: because he's gonna have a ton of questions. It's just mosh, 1296 01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:14,800 Speaker 1: But I can say that well, you appreciate it, and 1297 01:16:14,880 --> 01:16:17,400 Speaker 1: uh and this will be up tomorrow, thanks so much, 1298 01:16:17,479 --> 01:16:19,600 Speaker 1: and and really appreciate you going the full hour with 1299 01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:23,320 Speaker 1: us was great. Thank you, Thank you, Jack, Dude. I 1300 01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:26,000 Speaker 1: can't believe that he went the full hour with us. 1301 01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:29,800 Speaker 1: That was awesome. I would gladly go another hour with 1302 01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:31,720 Speaker 1: him if he comes back on with us, and it 1303 01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:33,760 Speaker 1: sounds like he will. I just feel like, I just 1304 01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:37,400 Speaker 1: feel like it was just a wide array of topics 1305 01:16:37,439 --> 01:16:41,080 Speaker 1: that he can speak on, you know, elaborately, because and 1306 01:16:41,160 --> 01:16:42,519 Speaker 1: like he said, you know, and I thought it was 1307 01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:45,120 Speaker 1: interesting that, you know, he the way he worded it 1308 01:16:45,160 --> 01:16:47,400 Speaker 1: was that he is out in the open now because 1309 01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:50,200 Speaker 1: fortunately for him, a lot of the situations he's been 1310 01:16:50,240 --> 01:16:52,519 Speaker 1: involved in, a lot of the milestones within the CIA 1311 01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:55,280 Speaker 1: that have been publicized he was a part of. He's 1312 01:16:55,280 --> 01:16:58,280 Speaker 1: able to talk about it now. So that's interesting. That's crazy, dude. 1313 01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:00,640 Speaker 1: This is the beauty of this pot cast to me, 1314 01:17:00,760 --> 01:17:04,639 Speaker 1: like this was a home run interview and I am 1315 01:17:04,640 --> 01:17:07,840 Speaker 1: going to talk some about the mainstream media, like who 1316 01:17:07,840 --> 01:17:11,080 Speaker 1: would you rather hear talk about these topics for an hour? 1317 01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:14,400 Speaker 1: Jack Divine, who is a true expert who has been 1318 01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:16,280 Speaker 1: there and done that, or do you want to hear 1319 01:17:16,360 --> 01:17:21,120 Speaker 1: Tommy Laren you know, like, dude, it's so and like 1320 01:17:21,280 --> 01:17:23,240 Speaker 1: this is what that's what you get when you turn 1321 01:17:23,240 --> 01:17:25,200 Speaker 1: on the mainstream media, and I know I'm gonna get shipped. 1322 01:17:25,240 --> 01:17:27,519 Speaker 1: You know, it's right wing and left wing. Like there's 1323 01:17:27,560 --> 01:17:30,639 Speaker 1: a lot of these people who have done absolutely nothing 1324 01:17:31,120 --> 01:17:34,320 Speaker 1: and they're speaking like they're experts. I remember, I'll tell 1325 01:17:34,320 --> 01:17:37,880 Speaker 1: you the prime example. I remember watching one of those 1326 01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:39,960 Speaker 1: Hannity panels and look, I know, like a lot of 1327 01:17:39,960 --> 01:17:43,280 Speaker 1: this audience loves Hannity. I've I've never met Sean Hannity, 1328 01:17:43,320 --> 01:17:45,639 Speaker 1: but just the panel itself, right, there was a panel. 1329 01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:47,720 Speaker 1: It was a bunch of lawyers. It was a bunch 1330 01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:50,000 Speaker 1: of talking heads, and there was Nick Irving up there 1331 01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:54,160 Speaker 1: all right, and they're asking questions about icence and blah blah, 1332 01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:57,000 Speaker 1: and all these talking heads who honestly don't know ship 1333 01:17:57,200 --> 01:17:59,360 Speaker 1: are the ones running their mouth. And like I'm like, 1334 01:17:59,439 --> 01:18:02,080 Speaker 1: go to Nick Irving. Nick Irving has been there and 1335 01:18:02,160 --> 01:18:04,360 Speaker 1: done that. I want to hear his take on this. 1336 01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:07,400 Speaker 1: I don't care about some lawyer. And uh so, you 1337 01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:09,120 Speaker 1: know that's the beauty of this podcast, Like we let 1338 01:18:09,120 --> 01:18:11,800 Speaker 1: a guy like Jack Devine go an hour with us 1339 01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:15,599 Speaker 1: and really give some insights. So I can't speak more 1340 01:18:15,680 --> 01:18:18,040 Speaker 1: highly if I'm having it super intriguing. How he can 1341 01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:22,920 Speaker 1: have an entire career after the CIA in somewhat of 1342 01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:27,799 Speaker 1: this similar environment, Like he's doing intelligence gathering and collecting 1343 01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:30,800 Speaker 1: for corporations. That's crazy. It's the same thing that Steve does. 1344 01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:34,120 Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, and I worked. I worked with him 1345 01:18:34,120 --> 01:18:37,080 Speaker 1: on a ground level. But to think that that is 1346 01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:41,720 Speaker 1: still that is it's something necessary for corporations. What the 1347 01:18:41,720 --> 01:18:43,639 Speaker 1: hell are you guys doing? It's crazy, But I mean 1348 01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:46,200 Speaker 1: it makes sense. I mean, you have these entire economies 1349 01:18:46,240 --> 01:18:49,000 Speaker 1: that you know, live and die by your intelligence, especially 1350 01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:51,920 Speaker 1: you know information as to you know what country is 1351 01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:53,519 Speaker 1: up and coming, Where should you open up a new 1352 01:18:53,520 --> 01:18:55,760 Speaker 1: bank or something. I mean, now that he said that, 1353 01:18:55,800 --> 01:18:58,200 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about it. Man, that's it's got to be 1354 01:18:58,280 --> 01:19:01,479 Speaker 1: a lucrative business. I had to ask him about that 1355 01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:03,719 Speaker 1: phony c I a think because it really is true. 1356 01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:06,479 Speaker 1: You know, like if you were watching Fox and you 1357 01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:08,479 Speaker 1: see some guy come out and say I'm a more 1358 01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:11,400 Speaker 1: sock instructor, you'll be out there in the public saying 1359 01:19:11,400 --> 01:19:13,599 Speaker 1: this guy is full of ship and the CIA. It's 1360 01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:19,400 Speaker 1: definitely a different scenario. Yeah, definitely, bro Um. So you 1361 01:19:19,439 --> 01:19:21,439 Speaker 1: don't actually know this. I've talked about it on the 1362 01:19:21,439 --> 01:19:25,200 Speaker 1: podcast with Jack and this is like throwing myself under 1363 01:19:25,240 --> 01:19:29,240 Speaker 1: the bus here. I actually knew Wayne Simmons and like 1364 01:19:29,320 --> 01:19:31,840 Speaker 1: I had contact with If you're looking at the cell phone, 1365 01:19:32,120 --> 01:19:35,360 Speaker 1: I have Wayne's number in here. Did he work on 1366 01:19:35,400 --> 01:19:39,320 Speaker 1: any capacity for the snow he was the Navy for 1367 01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:44,120 Speaker 1: a very short period of time. Uh No, he didn't do. 1368 01:19:44,240 --> 01:19:46,719 Speaker 1: He didn't too much at all for a very short 1369 01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:50,040 Speaker 1: period of time. But here's the crazy thing is he 1370 01:19:50,240 --> 01:19:54,160 Speaker 1: legitimately was an advisor on the war in Iraq because 1371 01:19:54,160 --> 01:19:56,160 Speaker 1: he was able to bullshit his way up to the top. 1372 01:19:56,479 --> 01:19:59,120 Speaker 1: When you have a blurb on your on your book 1373 01:19:59,120 --> 01:20:02,160 Speaker 1: written by Donald Rumsfeld saying that you're legit, You've been there, 1374 01:20:02,200 --> 01:20:05,120 Speaker 1: done that, people are going to take to say, Yeah, 1375 01:20:05,160 --> 01:20:07,960 Speaker 1: maybe there's there's some uh you know, credibility to this, 1376 01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:11,360 Speaker 1: especially someone like Donald Runsfeld. Yeah, so I booked when 1377 01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:13,759 Speaker 1: when I was working for David Webb show, I've booked 1378 01:20:13,920 --> 01:20:16,800 Speaker 1: Wayne Simmons and I was told he was legit. I'm 1379 01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:19,120 Speaker 1: not able to vet if someone was in the CIA 1380 01:20:19,240 --> 01:20:21,280 Speaker 1: or not, you know, And it's the same at Fox, like, 1381 01:20:21,320 --> 01:20:24,120 Speaker 1: I don't hold them responsible. Um, you know, it would 1382 01:20:24,120 --> 01:20:26,240 Speaker 1: be great if they had someone there like a Jack Murphy. 1383 01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:28,160 Speaker 1: You could let these guys. But I will give Jack credit. 1384 01:20:28,479 --> 01:20:30,920 Speaker 1: Years before he came out, told me he was like, dude, 1385 01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:33,240 Speaker 1: don't book this guy. Don't have him on the show. 1386 01:20:33,560 --> 01:20:36,400 Speaker 1: He was not in the CIA. Sure enough, it comes out, like, 1387 01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:38,679 Speaker 1: and it's just so crazy to think that there's other 1388 01:20:38,720 --> 01:20:40,920 Speaker 1: guys out there because Jack's written about them. There's other 1389 01:20:40,920 --> 01:20:42,720 Speaker 1: guys out there who have written books who said I 1390 01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:45,120 Speaker 1: did all these secretive black ops and it turns out 1391 01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:47,160 Speaker 1: they didn't do it, didn't do and they have like 1392 01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:52,280 Speaker 1: flourishing careers. It's crazy. Yeah, interesting stuff. Um Man loved 1393 01:20:52,320 --> 01:20:54,920 Speaker 1: having this guy on. I'm really looking forward to having 1394 01:20:54,960 --> 01:20:57,840 Speaker 1: him back, um before we get out of here. As 1395 01:20:57,880 --> 01:21:00,160 Speaker 1: a reminder for all of those who are listening, for 1396 01:21:00,160 --> 01:21:03,600 Speaker 1: a limited time, you can receive a fifty percent discounted 1397 01:21:03,640 --> 01:21:07,080 Speaker 1: membership to soft Rep TV, our channel that offers the 1398 01:21:07,200 --> 01:21:12,640 Speaker 1: most exclusive shows, documentaries and interviews covering the most exciting 1399 01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:17,400 Speaker 1: military content today. Softwarep TVs premier show Training Cell follows 1400 01:21:17,439 --> 01:21:21,679 Speaker 1: former Special Operations Forces as they participate in the most 1401 01:21:21,720 --> 01:21:26,040 Speaker 1: advanced training in the country. Everything from Shooting School's Defensive Driving, 1402 01:21:26,439 --> 01:21:31,120 Speaker 1: Jungle and Winter Warfare, climbing and much more. 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That's great Club dot 1420 01:22:25,160 --> 01:22:28,240 Speaker 1: us and I should throw out there that we're getting 1421 01:22:28,240 --> 01:22:31,479 Speaker 1: the finishing Touches on the Vagas party, the team Room party. 1422 01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:33,640 Speaker 1: I'll let you guys know the details as soon as 1423 01:22:33,680 --> 01:22:36,280 Speaker 1: I do. Um. I know it's later than usual, this 1424 01:22:36,400 --> 01:22:37,920 Speaker 1: is just how it worked out. But if you're in 1425 01:22:37,960 --> 01:22:40,720 Speaker 1: the area, we'd love to see you there. Um oh. 1426 01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:44,240 Speaker 1: And earlier I did a Power of Thought with Brandon 1427 01:22:44,320 --> 01:22:47,439 Speaker 1: Levin Steve Ralston, and Brandon was talking about the team 1428 01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:49,719 Speaker 1: Room event we did with Jim West and I didn't 1429 01:22:49,720 --> 01:22:52,840 Speaker 1: know about Jim taking a pocket knife out of some 1430 01:22:52,920 --> 01:22:57,000 Speaker 1: guy's pocket having it up. Yeah. He told me it 1431 01:22:57,120 --> 01:22:58,720 Speaker 1: was some guy there and he took it out of 1432 01:22:58,760 --> 01:23:01,840 Speaker 1: his pocket and had it like to his throat within seconds. Yeah, 1433 01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:04,519 Speaker 1: we were. He was he was demonstrating like I don't 1434 01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:07,519 Speaker 1: know entry, entry techniques while you're at the bar or whatever. 1435 01:23:07,600 --> 01:23:09,280 Speaker 1: And you know he's coming in and he's like, you know, 1436 01:23:09,479 --> 01:23:11,800 Speaker 1: hitting me or whatever, you know, blocking and all that stuff, 1437 01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:13,840 Speaker 1: and then you know he kind of like glanced down 1438 01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:15,840 Speaker 1: and saw my pocket knife in my pocket. I'm I'm 1439 01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:18,360 Speaker 1: posing for him, Yeah, I'm posing for him to do 1440 01:23:18,439 --> 01:23:20,200 Speaker 1: whatever it is he's gonna do. And next you know, 1441 01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:23,160 Speaker 1: it's just like a quick second, he pulled it out 1442 01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:25,280 Speaker 1: of my pocket, spun me around and like put it 1443 01:23:25,320 --> 01:23:26,719 Speaker 1: to my throat. But he didn't open it or nothing. 1444 01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:28,639 Speaker 1: He just you know, held the handle to my throat. 1445 01:23:28,640 --> 01:23:31,439 Speaker 1: He goes, Hey, man, be careful where you keep your 1446 01:23:31,439 --> 01:23:36,400 Speaker 1: get you think that. I mean, like I said, we 1447 01:23:36,400 --> 01:23:39,960 Speaker 1: were demonstrating a specific moves. I wasn't even thinking about it. 1448 01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:42,240 Speaker 1: You know, it's not something whatever here, do the arm 1449 01:23:42,280 --> 01:23:44,240 Speaker 1: bar on me or whatever you gotta do. But you know, 1450 01:23:44,320 --> 01:23:47,200 Speaker 1: whatever it was, um, Jim is amazing. Yeah, but it's 1451 01:23:47,240 --> 01:23:48,960 Speaker 1: something that I never thought about it. I was like, 1452 01:23:48,960 --> 01:23:50,439 Speaker 1: you know, what if I do get into a scuffle 1453 01:23:50,479 --> 01:23:52,439 Speaker 1: with somebody, this is kind of out there in the 1454 01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:54,880 Speaker 1: open for them to just take off of my my pocket, 1455 01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:56,559 Speaker 1: take out of my pocket because it's clipped into the 1456 01:23:56,560 --> 01:23:59,360 Speaker 1: inside of my pocket. And anyone who knows enough who 1457 01:23:59,400 --> 01:24:01,800 Speaker 1: know that to night, they could just two fingers pulled 1458 01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:03,640 Speaker 1: it out, you know. Jim, those weapons though, like no 1459 01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:06,880 Speaker 1: other one. When I see how fast he moves, it's 1460 01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:10,479 Speaker 1: pretty quick. Yeah, he's fucking fast man. Yeah, And and 1461 01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:13,439 Speaker 1: it's unsuspecting. You know, if someone saw him the straight 1462 01:24:13,520 --> 01:24:16,040 Speaker 1: they'd be like, oh, it's older guys him up. He'll 1463 01:24:16,080 --> 01:24:19,000 Speaker 1: tear him up in a heartbeat, like he's quick. I 1464 01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:21,360 Speaker 1: think it's just that that the condition response that he 1465 01:24:21,400 --> 01:24:24,000 Speaker 1: has already that I don't I don't even think he 1466 01:24:24,040 --> 01:24:26,160 Speaker 1: even realizes what he's gonna do at the moment, and 1467 01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:31,519 Speaker 1: he's that fast, like he'll just react to h an action. Yeah. Hey, 1468 01:24:31,560 --> 01:24:34,599 Speaker 1: so we appreciate you guys checking out this show. Um, 1469 01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:37,960 Speaker 1: please leave us a review on Apple Podcast. It helps. 1470 01:24:38,200 --> 01:24:40,479 Speaker 1: I think we're currently number four in the category and 1471 01:24:40,560 --> 01:24:42,760 Speaker 1: I last checked. Let's get us back up to number one. 1472 01:24:42,840 --> 01:24:46,519 Speaker 1: We need those reviews, so please leave a review. You 1473 01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:51,599 Speaker 1: could follow Jason on Instagram at j Delgado Rte on 1474 01:24:51,640 --> 01:24:54,200 Speaker 1: Twitter right at Bounty Hunter j D have it right. 1475 01:24:54,960 --> 01:24:58,280 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Instagram and Twitter at oh 1476 01:24:58,360 --> 01:25:00,080 Speaker 1: no, no no no, I'm just on Twitter. I'm losing my 1477 01:25:00,120 --> 01:25:01,720 Speaker 1: mind here. You can follow me on Twitter at the 1478 01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:04,040 Speaker 1: in Scotto. I don't have an Instagram. You can follow 1479 01:25:04,040 --> 01:25:06,880 Speaker 1: the show, of course on Instagram and Twitter at soft 1480 01:25:06,920 --> 01:25:11,360 Speaker 1: Rep Radio. Next episode, Luis Carmuch Nice, that's gonna be 1481 01:25:11,439 --> 01:25:13,519 Speaker 1: nice to me, That's gonna be great. I mean, she 1482 01:25:13,640 --> 01:25:17,320 Speaker 1: fought in the first ever women's UF Seed Doubt against 1483 01:25:17,360 --> 01:25:21,000 Speaker 1: Rhonda Rousey, and there's just a lot of history there. 1484 01:25:21,040 --> 01:25:24,479 Speaker 1: I'm really excited to have her on H and I 1485 01:25:24,479 --> 01:25:27,599 Speaker 1: guess that wraps it up. Hey, thanks for listening to us. Guys, 1486 01:25:28,640 --> 01:25:32,720 Speaker 1: you've been listening to sulf Rep Radio. New episodes up 1487 01:25:32,760 --> 01:25:36,080 Speaker 1: every Wednesday and Friday for all of the great content 1488 01:25:36,240 --> 01:25:39,519 Speaker 1: from our veteran journalists. Join us and become a team 1489 01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:43,120 Speaker 1: room member today at soft rep dot com. Follow the 1490 01:25:43,160 --> 01:25:47,280 Speaker 1: show on Instagram and Twitter at self rep Radio, and 1491 01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:50,640 Speaker 1: be sure to also check out the Power of False podcast, 1492 01:25:51,080 --> 01:25:55,760 Speaker 1: hosted by Hurricane Group CEO and Navy Seals sniper instructor 1493 01:25:56,240 --> 01:25:57,120 Speaker 1: Brandon Webb.