Speaker 1: If you go into a doctor's office and you have depression,
Speaker 1: you want to know what are my chances, what's likely
Speaker 1: to happen to me? Welcome to the one you feed
Speaker 1: Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the
Speaker 1: thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or
Speaker 1: you are what you think ring true. And yet for
Speaker 1: many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.
Speaker 1: We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We
Speaker 1: see what we don't have instead of what we do.
Speaker 1: We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.
Speaker 1: But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It
Speaker 1: takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life
Speaker 1: worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep
Speaker 1: themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their
Speaker 1: good wolf. Yeah, thanks for joining us. On today's episode,
Speaker 1: we have Jonathan Rottenberg, an associate professor of psychology at
Speaker 1: the University of South Florida, where he's the director of
Speaker 1: the Mood and Emotion Laboratory. Jonathan is also the author
Speaker 1: of The Depths, a book which Eric has discussed with
Speaker 1: him before, and today they're going to discuss some of
Speaker 1: these studies and research that Jonathan is involved with. Hi, Jonathan,
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. It's
Speaker 1: great to be here. It's a pleasure to have you
Speaker 1: on again. You and I talked, I was remarking to
Speaker 1: you before the interview about four years ago, and we
Speaker 1: had a great conversation then, and listeners can go back
Speaker 1: and listen to that where we talked about your book,
Speaker 1: The Depth, which was a book that really talked about
Speaker 1: how depression can be viewed through an evolutionary psychology lens
Speaker 1: as an adaptation. And you've gone on since then to
Speaker 1: do some other interesting studies. This is a lot of
Speaker 1: what you focus on in your work as a researcher.
Speaker 1: So we'll get into all this stuff, but let's start
Speaker 1: like we always do, with the parable. There's a grandfather
Speaker 1: who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there
Speaker 1: are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle.
Speaker 1: One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness
Speaker 1: and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And
Speaker 1: the grandson stops and thinks about it for a second
Speaker 1: and looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather,
Speaker 1: which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to start off by asking you what
Speaker 1: that parable means to you in your life and in
Speaker 1: the work that you do. Very much interested in finding
Speaker 1: out which wolf wins. Um very invested in the topic
Speaker 1: of depression, and it's been viewed as something that is destructive,
Speaker 1: that takes people in a terrifying negative direction. But I
Speaker 1: think that there's another overlooked possibility that if we feed
Speaker 1: ourselves in the right way, we might be able to
Speaker 1: take depression in a much more creative, productive direction. And
Speaker 1: so that's what the parable really means for me, this duality,
Speaker 1: this dual potential. So one of the things that most
Speaker 1: recently a study you released really talks about how one
Speaker 1: of the main things that seems to be missing in
Speaker 1: all the research that's getting done is looking at people
Speaker 1: who thrive after depression and really wondering, you know, a
Speaker 1: make that more of a common thing that people realize
Speaker 1: it happens, but also look at people who thrive as
Speaker 1: a lens to see what might work to help with depression.
Speaker 1: And you've recently done a study about that. Can you
Speaker 1: share a little bit about what you've learned? Sure, I
Speaker 1: think it helps to back up UM a little bit. So,
Speaker 1: I like most people have been studying all the things
Speaker 1: that make people depressed, that UM make depression lasts longer,
Speaker 1: that make depression recur, and we've really gotten a message
Speaker 1: that depression is is terrible, is destructive, and it's borne
Speaker 1: out in all the statistics UM. You probably have heard
Speaker 1: about the statistics as being the most disabling UM disease
Speaker 1: in the world. But I think we've kind of gotten
Speaker 1: that message too much in the sense that UM researchers
Speaker 1: have neglected to even look for good outcomes. And if
Speaker 1: you don't look for something, you're surely not going to
Speaker 1: find it. So in this new program research, what I'm
Speaker 1: interested UH in doing is focusing our lens on those
Speaker 1: who enjoy well being after depression. And so what does
Speaker 1: some initial work look like. It looks like there was
Speaker 1: a very small research study as part of this initial work. Well,
Speaker 1: I actually think that what we found is quite significant.
Speaker 1: If you think about again the destructive potential of depression,
Speaker 1: how it does tend to recur in disabled people in
Speaker 1: a variety of ways, it's destructive to relationships, it impairs
Speaker 1: us at work, it leaves us feeling miserable. You think
Speaker 1: that after someone experienced one or more depressive episodes that
Speaker 1: they're unlikely to experience the levels of well being, balance
Speaker 1: in life, feeling that their existence is purposeful to the
Speaker 1: extent are greater than people who had never had depression.
Speaker 1: So we did a study where we were looking at
Speaker 1: a big data set of adults and we had norms
Speaker 1: on well being for both people who are depressed in
Speaker 1: people who are non depressed, and we first had to
Speaker 1: figure out, so who's doing well in life? And we've
Speaker 1: essentially had all these different categories, all these different aspects
Speaker 1: of well being, like purpose in life, positive emotion, not
Speaker 1: experiencing negative emotion, And we found that about a fifth
Speaker 1: of non depressed people had this consistent profile of looking
Speaker 1: like they were really doing well, had very consistent high
Speaker 1: levels of psychological well being. So then the big question
Speaker 1: is what is having depression due to that possibility? And
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people going in would think
Speaker 1: that depression not that it would be zero, but it
Speaker 1: would be very low. Your chances of enjoying well being
Speaker 1: at the same level. Is that top fifth, that kind
Speaker 1: of rarefied air of people who are really going along
Speaker 1: in life, in and um and flourishing. And so what
Speaker 1: we found was that depression reduced the chances by about
Speaker 1: one half, So about ten percent of people who had
Speaker 1: a documented depressive episode when they were followed ten years later,
Speaker 1: we're flourishing at in that kind of rarefied air. And
Speaker 1: so I know, you know, some people are glass half full,
Speaker 1: other people are class half empty. I see this as
Speaker 1: a big glass half full kind of finding. But we
Speaker 1: can talk about what it means, right, So essentially, what
Speaker 1: you're saying is that for a lot of people, depression
Speaker 1: is not the end of the road. And not only
Speaker 1: do they recover from depression or come back to what
Speaker 1: we would consider a normalized state, they fall into the
Speaker 1: category of people who were really thriving in life. I
Speaker 1: think that's important to know that that happens if you
Speaker 1: look at messaging around depression. Heck, if you go into
Speaker 1: a doctor's office and you have depression and you want
Speaker 1: to know, what are my chances what's likely to happen
Speaker 1: to me? By and large, what you here are very
Speaker 1: very cautious statements. The best you could hope for is,
Speaker 1: we'll try to keep these symptoms at bay, will try
Speaker 1: to make sure you have some wealth periods, stay on
Speaker 1: the medication, stay in treatment. And I'm not saying that
Speaker 1: those are unwise things, but the expectations are awfully low
Speaker 1: and the picture of the future is awfully dim, and
Speaker 1: I think that this proves to be true in other studies.
Speaker 1: I think that doctors and other mental health professionals can
Speaker 1: be somewhat more positive about the possibilities. And so let's
Speaker 1: briefly talk about some of these measures of well being
Speaker 1: because I thought they were really interesting to explore on
Speaker 1: their own of this is what someone who is again
Speaker 1: to use the word that was certainly used in the
Speaker 1: New York Times article, this is a description of people
Speaker 1: who are thriving. So let's maybe talk through what some
Speaker 1: of those facets are, because I do think they helped
Speaker 1: paint a more nuanced picture of what mental health and
Speaker 1: emotional health looks like. Yeah, it's a great it's a
Speaker 1: great point. I'm glad you're asking about that. So I
Speaker 1: think that what is mental health has not received nearly
Speaker 1: the same attention as what is mental ill health, So
Speaker 1: we had to we had to do some work here
Speaker 1: to come out with a credible battery, focusing on psychological
Speaker 1: well being, knowing that there are other elements of well
Speaker 1: being that we couldn't We couldn't do everything all at once,
Speaker 1: so we focused on psychological well being, and that included
Speaker 1: things like experiencing positive emotions, experiencing negative emotions to relatively
Speaker 1: low degree, feeling that your life was purposeful, feeling that
Speaker 1: you have balance in your life, having meaningful relationships, Feeling
Speaker 1: a sense of autonomy like you're in control of your
Speaker 1: life as opposed to being in control. So some of
Speaker 1: those are some of the major facets of well being
Speaker 1: that we we examined. Yeah, and as I was reading it,
Speaker 1: you know, a thought occurred to me, which is how
Speaker 1: many of these characteristics can you have and still be
Speaker 1: considered to be highly functioning. That's a great question because
Speaker 1: one's assumption would be the depression would destroy various manifestations
Speaker 1: of well being, and it's a reasonable assumption, um but
Speaker 1: it does not appear to be the case. Because if
Speaker 1: we want to find out we want to predict which
Speaker 1: people of those who are originally depressed are the most
Speaker 1: likely to be flourishing ten years later. The thing that
Speaker 1: predicted it was actually being able to report some level
Speaker 1: of well being at the at the get go, at
Speaker 1: the outset. So yes, depression on average is very harmful
Speaker 1: to these multiple aspects of well being, but there still
Speaker 1: are individual differences. So you could imagine someone who, for example,
Speaker 1: had depression. They're very depressed, but they just had a baby,
Speaker 1: so they are depressed, they're very sad about it, but
Speaker 1: their life does have purpose in the sense that even
Speaker 1: if their life right now is in the trash, can
Speaker 1: they look at their look at their newborn. They feel like,
Speaker 1: that's a reason to live, that's a purpose in my life,
Speaker 1: that's meaning in my life. And and it was exactly
Speaker 1: that sort of thing, having um, those kinds of experiences
Speaker 1: that was predictive of doing better ten years later. As
Speaker 1: I look at this list, I mean, there are two
Speaker 1: categories that sound like what we normally think about when
Speaker 1: we think about depression, which is, you know, having lots
Speaker 1: of positive emotions or you know, not having a lot
Speaker 1: of negative emotions, um and but all the other categories here,
Speaker 1: they're not so much based on what we're feeling exactly there.
Speaker 1: They involve u to what extent our lives are full
Speaker 1: of meaning and purpose. That's many of the the elements
Speaker 1: or in some way are satisfying, despite the pain that
Speaker 1: might be inherent in being alive. Right, And this is
Speaker 1: interesting to me, you know when we talked before, and
Speaker 1: listeners know, I mean, I am someone who um wrestled
Speaker 1: with depression for a long time, and I don't know
Speaker 1: how to describe my relationship with it now right um,
Speaker 1: because I do have what feel like moments of unexplained
Speaker 1: low mood, so not so much like negative emotions as
Speaker 1: in like oh my dog died, I'm sad, not that,
Speaker 1: but I feel empty or you know, the traditional and
Speaker 1: hedonia like that still shows up for me from time
Speaker 1: to time. But when I look at all these other measures,
Speaker 1: and if you asked me, I would say I am
Speaker 1: absolutely thriving, Like I look at having had depression as
Speaker 1: as generally a positive in my life, maybe because I'm
Speaker 1: a podcaster who deals with these things and that's part
Speaker 1: of what I do. But but I'm struck by how
Speaker 1: many of these measures I would say yes, yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: even if I might say that the positive and negative
Speaker 1: emotions maybe aren't quite where I would want them to be.
Speaker 1: And again I I always wrestle with us and you
Speaker 1: and I talked about this a little bit in the
Speaker 1: other episode around how happy should we expect to be?
Speaker 1: And by expecting to be uh, super happy in some
Speaker 1: cases leads to less happiness. Well, you don't mind my
Speaker 1: saying something uh personal, Uh, I think that the the
Speaker 1: fact that you have some elements of well being even
Speaker 1: in the middle of depression is a kind of armor
Speaker 1: that should help you word off the really significant, bone
Speaker 1: crushing chronic depression. And and that's something that, um, if
Speaker 1: we could give that to all people who struggled with depression,
Speaker 1: I suspect that we would have We would still have depression,
Speaker 1: of course, but the depression would be shorter, it wouldn't
Speaker 1: take over and be as destructive as as it often is.
Speaker 1: So I think that's a pretty important insight. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: death really has my depression such that I have it,
Speaker 1: and again I often am like to have it? Do
Speaker 1: I not have it? What's my relationship to it? But
Speaker 1: it is certainly, um, far more reduced than it than
Speaker 1: it once was. And but it it does that does
Speaker 1: seem to be some recurrence of it. And in your
Speaker 1: book The Depths, you talk about three things that seed
Speaker 1: sort of a low mood, and you talk about events, um,
Speaker 1: temperaments and routines, And I think that that's so useful
Speaker 1: when we're trying to sort of look at the question
Speaker 1: of are we depressed or how depressed are we? Or
Speaker 1: what are these things? Is is sort of examining those
Speaker 1: things because I do think they give a little bit
Speaker 1: of a more nuanced window into this question of am
Speaker 1: I depressed or not depressed? Yeah, I think that if
Speaker 1: people think of their moodsm more normal thing, not as
Speaker 1: the enemy, and again sort of like the parable, you
Speaker 1: can do. You can do things that are feeding your
Speaker 1: better mood, and in the extent that you do that,
Speaker 1: you still have depression, but it will be briefer, it
Speaker 1: will be less destructive, and it will be less intense.
Speaker 1: So I do think that in our culture there's a
Speaker 1: tendency to be binary. Am I depressed? I'm not sure
Speaker 1: that's the right question. Um, A question is what sort
Speaker 1: of mood am I in? And what are the things
Speaker 1: that are feeding it? And what are the things that
Speaker 1: that are within my control that I can do to
Speaker 1: learn from it and to be healthier. Right, one of
Speaker 1: the things I wanted to ask you is you publish
Speaker 1: something in the Annual Review of Clinical Psychology not too
Speaker 1: long ago, but the title of it was Emotions in Depression,
Speaker 1: What do we really know? And um, you you talk
Speaker 1: about you say that we you know, you report on
Speaker 1: what we've learned thus far about how depression influences emotional
Speaker 1: reactivity and emotion regulation and also really show what we
Speaker 1: don't yet know. And I'd be curious if you could
Speaker 1: maybe talk just a little bit about some of what
Speaker 1: you wrote in that article. You know, what do we
Speaker 1: know about depression and emotional reactivity and regulation versus what
Speaker 1: don't we know? Yeah, we have more questions than answers,
Speaker 1: but I think our questions are more interesting questions than
Speaker 1: the questions we used to have. So we'll call that progress.
Speaker 1: So I think that we started out with a kind
Speaker 1: of a cartoon version that depressed people have sadness attacks, uh,
Speaker 1: sort of like people who have panic disorder have panic attacks,
Speaker 1: sudden bursts of sadness. In my research, in research from
Speaker 1: other investigators, is really shown that not to be the case.
Speaker 1: What seems to be true is that depression really kind
Speaker 1: of devoids the emotional landscape of bumps. In a sense,
Speaker 1: it flattens it out in people experience less differentiation. So
Speaker 1: I go to a happy context, I feel terrible. I
Speaker 1: go and I look at something that's tragic, and I
Speaker 1: have a very similar reaction. Especially in laboratory studies, this
Speaker 1: phenomenon called emotion context and sense ativity, where people are
Speaker 1: reporting the same emotions in different contexts. So that's one
Speaker 1: thing that we've learned, but studies of everyday life give
Speaker 1: us a somewhat different picture, where though it's true that
Speaker 1: people don't have the same kind of predictable emotions, people
Speaker 1: with depression have negative emotions in kind of unpredictable ways,
Speaker 1: in the sense that there's nothing about their context that's negative,
Speaker 1: but nevertheless they have the experience of negative emotions. So
Speaker 1: it's almost like there's a decoupling or a disjunction between
Speaker 1: the things that normally make us feel emotion when we're
Speaker 1: in a state of depression. So, for example, depressed people,
Speaker 1: they might have periods where they feel really intensely upset,
Speaker 1: but it might be actually a very minor, minor event
Speaker 1: that provokes that, not the sort of thing that ordinarily
Speaker 1: would would get us to experience strong bursts of emotion.
Speaker 1: So if you know, I add one sentence to describe it.
Speaker 1: The depression kind of removes the normal emotion antecedence, but
Speaker 1: then replaces them with ones that are unpredictable and confusing.
Speaker 1: And I think that this sort of accords with how
Speaker 1: a lot of depressed people experience their emotions, is often
Speaker 1: being confusing, not understanding their mood and and and just
Speaker 1: feeling like they they're always searching for why it is
Speaker 1: that they feel the way that they do. I've looked
Speaker 1: at depression as I've been in two different ways. One
Speaker 1: one way and it's mostly the way I do it
Speaker 1: now is I almost just treat it because it's it's
Speaker 1: cyclical for me, and it it doesn't it doesn't really
Speaker 1: land on me and stay on me in the same way,
Speaker 1: you know, I tend to look at it and treat
Speaker 1: it sort of as an emotional flu I just look
Speaker 1: at it and go, Okay, well, am I taking care
Speaker 1: of myself? All right? Let me make sure I'm doing
Speaker 1: the things that I know are good for me, and
Speaker 1: then I'm going to kind of ride this out. And
Speaker 1: I don't go plumbing the depths for deeper meaning of
Speaker 1: what's wrong, because I know with enough history that there
Speaker 1: isn't much of anything wrong really, or it seems like
Speaker 1: there's not anything particularly wrong, but they're also does seem
Speaker 1: to be the case that you know and and your
Speaker 1: your previous book discusses this to some extent, where you know,
Speaker 1: the depression is an adapt aation to something happening, and
Speaker 1: it's worth digging a little deeper to find out what
Speaker 1: that might be. And I'm just kind of curious from
Speaker 1: your perspective, is what are those approaches better than the
Speaker 1: other or is it totally context dependent? Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: think there's one right way to respond to depression, but
Speaker 1: I do think that the dominant response that people are
Speaker 1: having right now in our culture is often very harmful.
Speaker 1: Our culture is very intolerant and in some ways frightened
Speaker 1: of negative emotion, and we interpret this as a sign
Speaker 1: that there's something wrong with us. There's something wrong with Howard,
Speaker 1: thinking there's something wrong with Howard, feeling there's something wrong
Speaker 1: with our our life. And this has a sense in
Speaker 1: which it can actually magnify the state, because we're wondering
Speaker 1: why am I not happier? Why am I still unhappy?
Speaker 1: I'm still unhappy? Why? And what you're describing is a
Speaker 1: somewhat more patient attitude, where while we on the one hand,
Speaker 1: we do we do inquire um into into the state
Speaker 1: and what it might mean, but we don't do it
Speaker 1: with a kind of desperation. And I think it's the
Speaker 1: kind of desperation that the kind of desperate responses that
Speaker 1: people have that prolonged the depression, and sometimes they don't
Speaker 1: even produce the kind of insight that you would think
Speaker 1: they might produce by by constantly asking the question why
Speaker 1: am I still sad? Why am I still sad? Right?
Speaker 1: Because that can lead to depression, which is rumination. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: depression is a tricky thing. So it may mean something
Speaker 1: that that you need to change in your life, or
Speaker 1: it may be that you're not getting enough sleep, or
Speaker 1: it may be that your your diet needs to change,
Speaker 1: you need to get more exercise, or you need to
Speaker 1: get more light and so, because the mood system is
Speaker 1: open to so many different inputs. But in terms of
Speaker 1: the original design, yes, it's true that the mood system
Speaker 1: was there originally in part to register major shocks, so
Speaker 1: major threats to your long term well being. So you
Speaker 1: can predict that people will get depressed when a person
Speaker 1: close to them dies. Still feel depression now it may
Speaker 1: not last for months and years, but it's a normative response.
Speaker 1: It's a natural response, and it's part, part and parcel
Speaker 1: of why we have moods. And so I, I, like you,
Speaker 1: am not against depression and trying to eradicate it to zero.
Speaker 1: The question is how do we how do we live
Speaker 1: with it, how do we how do we contain it,
Speaker 1: how do we take it in a positive direction. I
Speaker 1: think that's a different set of questions than the questions
Speaker 1: we typically ask of depression. Now, in the situation that
Speaker 1: you described, which is something very close to you dies
Speaker 1: and you are in a grief state, would we consider
Speaker 1: that or would you consider that depression or is that
Speaker 1: just a word that we throw on a low mood
Speaker 1: state of grief and loss. I don't think there's any
Speaker 1: hard and fast way to distinguish between a low mood
Speaker 1: that is non pathological and the clinical depression that is
Speaker 1: that is pathological. It's just a it's a continuum of mood.
Speaker 1: And I know it's a nerving because people want the
Speaker 1: clear labels. They want to know, you know, what is
Speaker 1: the bad depression versus the good depression. But the truth
Speaker 1: is that some people have berievement that leads to clinical
Speaker 1: depression and suicidality and losing forty pounds and not coming
Speaker 1: out of it, whereas other people have some months of
Speaker 1: grief or even longer periods, but they're able to resume
Speaker 1: their lives. So and I wish there were a bright
Speaker 1: line we could draw between the pathological and non pathological,
Speaker 1: but there really isn't. This conversation makes me think of
Speaker 1: and I don't know whose quote it was who said this,
Speaker 1: but they said, sadness is where everything means you know
Speaker 1: something or too much, and depression is when nothing really
Speaker 1: means um anything. And I've always thought that's an interesting point.
Speaker 1: But I do think that at least um in my life,
Speaker 1: my I suspect I wrestled with depression far before I
Speaker 1: ever knew it, because um, you know, I was a
Speaker 1: substance abuse attic and had lots of other things. But
Speaker 1: I do remember that the kickoff for me of what
Speaker 1: I would consider the major depression in my adulthood was
Speaker 1: there was a period of deep grief, um for the
Speaker 1: loss of a marriage, and I realized that there was
Speaker 1: just a period of time where I went like, this
Speaker 1: isn't getting better, Like I'm I'm just not getting better.
Speaker 1: And I don't feel maybe as sad about that as
Speaker 1: I used to, but I still feel like shit right like,
Speaker 1: And that was when I was like, all right, I
Speaker 1: think I need to seek more treatment because to your point,
Speaker 1: that triggered what appeared to be a depression condition that
Speaker 1: wasn't remitting. Oh, I am all four getting help. I
Speaker 1: don't see, just because mood is the product of a
Speaker 1: natural system doesn't mean that we should just wallow in
Speaker 1: our depression and and wait for it to tell us.
Speaker 1: You know, wisdom, Um, you know I've been in some ways.
Speaker 1: I would say that I was a victim of a
Speaker 1: severe depression. Now, treatments were not terribly helpful, helpful for me,
Speaker 1: and I had to suffer for a long time, and
Speaker 1: it was hard for me to tell what the meaning
Speaker 1: of the depression was. But now, many decades later, UM,
Speaker 1: I don't think it's too strong to say that I
Speaker 1: feel grateful that I had that experience, and I do
Speaker 1: think it led me to a better place, led me
Speaker 1: to be a better person, led me to a totally
Speaker 1: different career. I believe that we can't We should look
Speaker 1: for answers, we should look for clarity. Um, But I
Speaker 1: respect the primitive nature of depression in our limited ability
Speaker 1: to decipher um it's meaning, and that requires sometimes a
Speaker 1: kind of patients that most people don't have. And so
Speaker 1: what have you learned over the last several years about
Speaker 1: ways that people can work with depression more skillfully? I
Speaker 1: think you and I very much agree on one common point,
Speaker 1: which is that, you know, walking into a doctor's office
Speaker 1: and just getting a medication and leaving it that is
Speaker 1: probably not the best approach. I mean, I my depression
Speaker 1: has responded to what I would you know, I often
Speaker 1: jokingly referred to as like throwing the kitchen sink at it, right,
Speaker 1: Like I worked on it on multiple levels, you know, medicine, therapy, exercise,
Speaker 1: eating right. Are there any other things besides sort of
Speaker 1: those that sort of the well known things that you
Speaker 1: have learned maybe since you published the book about other
Speaker 1: useful approaches to depression? I think that that there's both
Speaker 1: incredible good news and incredible bad news. The bad news
Speaker 1: is that so many different things can trigger depression, and
Speaker 1: we've talked about a number of them. But the good
Speaker 1: news is that many of those same things, uh if
Speaker 1: if skillfully played out, can be leavers to move mood
Speaker 1: in a more positive direction. So you you've mentioned already
Speaker 1: a number of those levers, but cognitive change is an
Speaker 1: important one. So having a different relationship with your with
Speaker 1: your thoughts, with your negative thoughts, being able to reinterpret
Speaker 1: them more skillfully is one additional lever. And we haven't
Speaker 1: mentioned interpersonal uh factors. So what friends you have, how
Speaker 1: supportive they are, what you do with them, um, Having
Speaker 1: things to look forward to with other people as another
Speaker 1: important buffering factor, having even someone to talk to about
Speaker 1: your depression. I mean, depression is so profoundly isolating in
Speaker 1: our in our culture. Unfortunately, even now when stigma is
Speaker 1: starting to a road to a degree, when people get oppressed,
Speaker 1: their strong urges to withdraw, they feel misunderstood. It's very
Speaker 1: hard for them to reach out to others. They feel
Speaker 1: that others won't understand them, and they're depriving themselves of
Speaker 1: a really important lever. Um. So then all the lifestyle
Speaker 1: factors that you that you mentioned that I think are
Speaker 1: a bit unsung as anti depressive heroes, and the list
Speaker 1: really goes on because I think there will also be
Speaker 1: individualistic um antidotes. That's one reason I'm so interested in
Speaker 1: this research. Unflourishing because I think what we're gonna learn
Speaker 1: is that there's a multitude of different ways that people
Speaker 1: find a way out of depression. And I'm eager to
Speaker 1: meet those people maybe they listen to because I think
Speaker 1: that they need we need to learn from these wise people. Now,
Speaker 1: it may not all be specific things that people are doing.
Speaker 1: I mean, we can't neglect the possibility that some of
Speaker 1: us has to do with You have lucky genes, you have,
Speaker 1: You're just an intelligent person. You can figure things out.
Speaker 1: But I think it has to be true that some
Speaker 1: of getting out of depression is within human control, in
Speaker 1: in the things that we can change or modify. Right.
Speaker 1: I think that's such an interesting question that um I've
Speaker 1: been pondering lately, which is really how much control do
Speaker 1: we have over this stuff? And I think that the
Speaker 1: most honest answer I've been able to come up with
Speaker 1: is some right, Like, I do think that by doing
Speaker 1: certain things we can improve our condition. But to what degree,
Speaker 1: I think depends on so many other factors about like
Speaker 1: you said, about genes or previous trauma or lots of
Speaker 1: other things. But it does seem that there is some
Speaker 1: role for the actions that we take to make some
Speaker 1: degree of improvement us. My message, one of my big messages,
Speaker 1: is that it's never too late. So someone out there
Speaker 1: may have had depression that recurred three or four times,
Speaker 1: or they might be in the middle of a chronic depression,
Speaker 1: and they may think that I've tried everything and nothing
Speaker 1: has worked, and I have no control, and and depression
Speaker 1: does tap does sap your patients. But the more we learn,
Speaker 1: the more we see that given enough time, people can
Speaker 1: discover and if it's a tried and true method or
Speaker 1: if it's a unique method, we need. That's why we
Speaker 1: need these models of individuals who found a way out,
Speaker 1: because I think there's a lot we can learn flip
Speaker 1: from them. And even if it is and it surely
Speaker 1: is less than control, even if it's ten percent control,
Speaker 1: for someone who feels that they have no control, they
Speaker 1: would kill for ten percent with anything in life. Is
Speaker 1: it's like, well, I tried this and it didn't work
Speaker 1: for me, and then I try it again another time
Speaker 1: and it works for me great Or I tried this
Speaker 1: thing and it's working for me, but it doesn't work
Speaker 1: for me anymore. So now I need to find something
Speaker 1: else to try. But I think that that your message
Speaker 1: that that comes through with this is that there is
Speaker 1: hope at the end of this. There is hope at
Speaker 1: the end of this. That and it's just it's just
Speaker 1: the truth. It's it's not wishful thinking. And the other
Speaker 1: thing that I really want people to appreciate that some
Speaker 1: people are fortunate enough to find a way out is
Speaker 1: not a negative reflection on any of the people who
Speaker 1: are still in depressions. Grip. This does not mean that
Speaker 1: it's your fault. And we get it. We have this
Speaker 1: culture that's always try trying to labeling who's responsible, whose
Speaker 1: fault is it, And that's just a nonsensical way of thinking,
Speaker 1: especially about something that is is elusive and is poorly
Speaker 1: understood as depression. So we we try to get our
Speaker 1: baby footholds on depression and we try to cut it
Speaker 1: down to size. So the fact that that some people
Speaker 1: are are doing better and learning to live with depression
Speaker 1: and living better afterwards, I see as as hope, but
Speaker 1: not as diminishing or degrading or debasing people who are
Speaker 1: still struggling with depression. These are all really these are
Speaker 1: real and important experiences of depression that are uh that
Speaker 1: must be respected. Um, you know, sort of in and
Speaker 1: up themselves. Yeah. I often think in some ways we've
Speaker 1: gone from the depression model or idea of well you
Speaker 1: just you know, shake it off or pull yourself up
Speaker 1: by your bootstraps. We've we've evolved that to a slightly
Speaker 1: more nuanced version of well are you exercising or you
Speaker 1: eating right? Are you? You know that that again we
Speaker 1: can turn that into our fault and so you know,
Speaker 1: I think that's such an interesting line to have to
Speaker 1: walk as a person, which is, you know, on one hand,
Speaker 1: am I really trying as best I am able to
Speaker 1: all these things that I know might help, and at
Speaker 1: the same time not being too hard on myself when
Speaker 1: I'm unable to do those things because of depression exactly.
Speaker 1: I would also we define success, so you know, if
Speaker 1: you're in a crushing depression that's leaving you unable to
Speaker 1: work or think or have a thought that that you
Speaker 1: feel is a useful thought, that's your personality. Victory is
Speaker 1: more comfortable, so you know, it's incremental gains, so you
Speaker 1: you want to continually evolve so that you're in a
Speaker 1: better place. It's not like one day you go from
Speaker 1: having a severe chronic depression to flourishing, You're gonna have
Speaker 1: to pass through some intermediate states. But I think the
Speaker 1: important point is that you can be confident that applying
Speaker 1: what we know and being patient, you're likely to end
Speaker 1: up in a better place than you are now if
Speaker 1: you're not satisfied with where you are, but also realizing
Speaker 1: that a lot of people, and this is may mean
Speaker 1: not appreciated by a lot of people, that um, it's
Speaker 1: not like most people are experiencing bliss seven. I think
Speaker 1: we have a very unrealistic idea of what what people
Speaker 1: ordinarily experience and feel and part of it is that
Speaker 1: our our culture just just really idealizes euphoria and these
Speaker 1: very brief lived kind of high energies, fist bump, you know,
Speaker 1: peak states. You know, it sells cars, and it kind
Speaker 1: of makes the world go around our pursuit of euphoria.
Speaker 1: And I'm not against euphoria by any means, but I
Speaker 1: think that we get into trouble and we think that
Speaker 1: it's normal to be experiencing these things for you know,
Speaker 1: eight hours a day. That's that's not going to happen, right.
Speaker 1: And I think you touched on something important there too,
Speaker 1: which is that, um, temperament plays a big role in this,
Speaker 1: and that some of us are more inclined towards high
Speaker 1: energy states or low energy states, or a happiness that's
Speaker 1: more intense versus a satisfaction that's a little bit more
Speaker 1: um low key, but but contentment. I mean that we
Speaker 1: can't get rid of some of our basic temperament, and
Speaker 1: we wouldn't want to. I mean, I think that we
Speaker 1: need are more introverted people. We need are people who
Speaker 1: are maybe more reserved too, don't always look on the
Speaker 1: bright side, that they add value that you know, life
Speaker 1: would be boring if everyone everyone were the same. And
Speaker 1: I do think that some of those we could say
Speaker 1: they're more depressive temperaments and more depressed toogenic temperaments that
Speaker 1: they do tend to be devalued as you know, this
Speaker 1: is a kill joy type person. But these these people
Speaker 1: are often very insightful and funny and interesting. We need
Speaker 1: to see their value. I never thought that the goal
Speaker 1: should be to erase anything anything depressive or depressing, you know.
Speaker 1: I I feel like we need to expand you know
Speaker 1: that the possibilities uh for people and not have people
Speaker 1: feel bad about what their temperament is right, and that
Speaker 1: sort of circles us back to some of the early
Speaker 1: conversation we had as you as we talked through these
Speaker 1: factors of well being that really only a couple of
Speaker 1: them have to do with emotional state, and and so
Speaker 1: many more of them have to do with meaning and
Speaker 1: purpose and autonomy and growth and um relationship with others
Speaker 1: and and so there's so many more factors to a
Speaker 1: life well lived than just whether you're in an upbeat mood.
Speaker 1: Understand why, Um, you know when people ask how you're doing,
Speaker 1: that's first you you're not talking about purpose and value
Speaker 1: that you're talking about. You know, you're feeling good, You're happy.
Speaker 1: That's the shorthand that people use. I understand that it's
Speaker 1: not really as rich as the reality. Right, Yeah, you
Speaker 1: don't want to be that person. How are you doing
Speaker 1: well on six exactly? At a six out of nine facets,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm doing very well. Um. Let's um, we're near
Speaker 1: the end of our time. But let's wrap up a
Speaker 1: little bit with an organization that you founded called Depression
Speaker 1: or helped to found called Depression Army. And I'm wondering
Speaker 1: if you could tell us a little bit about that
Speaker 1: organization and some of the things that, um, maybe you've
Speaker 1: learned by being part of it. Sure, So I've been
Speaker 1: on all sides of depression, as I mentioned, struggled with depression,
Speaker 1: and I've been a scientist, and I've been hankering to,
Speaker 1: um be more involved in the dialogue about depression in
Speaker 1: our culture. And so Depression Army really is a vehicle
Speaker 1: to have a more interesting conversation. So we have a
Speaker 1: website as a blog, and we have all the various
Speaker 1: social media flavors, whether you like Facebook or Tumbler, or
Speaker 1: Instagram or Twitter. Um. But the purpose really is much
Speaker 1: like we've been talking about, to reflect on the experience
Speaker 1: of depression. And and I think that in addition to
Speaker 1: being a dreaded, terrible, frightening, horrible experience, depression is also
Speaker 1: very interesting. It's an interesting experience, and it's also a
Speaker 1: transformative experience. And so I think that in Depression Army,
Speaker 1: we're playing around or thinking about depression identity. What does
Speaker 1: it mean to have a depression? What does it mean
Speaker 1: for your future? What does it mean for um, your relationships?
Speaker 1: And we don't we don't pretend to have the answer
Speaker 1: for this. Our purposes to to inspire thought and be
Speaker 1: provocative um and to try to hang onto the two sides,
Speaker 1: so both the hope, the possibility of recovery, but also
Speaker 1: the reality that so many people are still struggling, because
Speaker 1: those are both really important parts of depression. I agree.
Speaker 1: I think being able to paint that picture is is
Speaker 1: so important that that there is hope and if you're
Speaker 1: right in the middle of it, boy, that hurts. And
Speaker 1: from your working with Depression Armies, there anything you feel
Speaker 1: like that that has taught you or opened up to you,
Speaker 1: or any particular stories from that that that you know
Speaker 1: come to mind for you. What really jumps out to
Speaker 1: me is the universality of depression that uh it. It's
Speaker 1: observed across cultures, it's observed across developmental ages, whether you're
Speaker 1: a man, whether you're a woman, and it's one of
Speaker 1: the most universal human experiences. And yet it's kind of
Speaker 1: experience that we struggled to talk about. So I find
Speaker 1: it though it's not science, it's it's cultural dialogue. I
Speaker 1: find it very stimulating and helps me think about the science,
Speaker 1: what we need to study, what we need to understand
Speaker 1: from a systematic perspective. So depression Army, you know, in
Speaker 1: one sense, it's a way that I'm trying to give
Speaker 1: back too to the community and and reaching out, but
Speaker 1: it's also giving me a tremendous amount. It's also helping
Speaker 1: me process my own depression. I mean, I'm grateful for
Speaker 1: the I'm grateful for the chance to have that platform,
Speaker 1: because depression for me was something terrible and unspeakable and frightening,
Speaker 1: and that we could do something that in any way
Speaker 1: either eases people's pain or helps them understand what they're
Speaker 1: going through, helps them build their identity. UM you know,
Speaker 1: I I don't. I mean, I think, you know, if
Speaker 1: it does good, that makes me feel good, but it
Speaker 1: also really helps me and you know at a personal level,
Speaker 1: you know, you referenced this, you know, depression that you
Speaker 1: went through. Do you consider that sort of fully behind
Speaker 1: you know, because I'm a human being. Um So, if
Speaker 1: God forbid, something terrible happened in my life, UM if
Speaker 1: I had that kind of shock, I I would expect
Speaker 1: that it could be a trigger to significant depression. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, I do feel like I have
Speaker 1: built up a lot of armor that really helps me
Speaker 1: contain contain the beast. Um I'm not saying it's like
Speaker 1: a furry dog that you know I can take out
Speaker 1: and pet, but um, you know it's been defanged. Um
Speaker 1: you know it tries to bite me, and um, it
Speaker 1: doesn't break the skin anymore. Um. But you know, it's
Speaker 1: always possible that I could and be in some really
Speaker 1: compromised state because I'm being battered in my my armor
Speaker 1: would be overwhelmed. So I think, you know, no one
Speaker 1: should be so arrogant to say, it's great we have
Speaker 1: all these celebrities now that are talking about their depression,
Speaker 1: and in some ways it's inspiring this dialogue about recovery.
Speaker 1: So Dwayne Johnson, The Rock and J K. Rowling and
Speaker 1: and it's great to have them as part of the conversation.
Speaker 1: But I look at them and I see that they're
Speaker 1: doing really well. But are they immune well? They could
Speaker 1: they never have a depression again? It seems unlikely, but
Speaker 1: they've obviously figured some some stuff out and we're lucky
Speaker 1: to have them on on this earth and we should
Speaker 1: learn from them. And uh, I guess I don't think
Speaker 1: anyone's I mean, I think that's that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I love that analogy or metaphor you just made of
Speaker 1: like that old metaphor of depression is the black dog,
Speaker 1: right of it's um, it's been defying to do a
Speaker 1: certain extent, and it it bites, but it doesn't break
Speaker 1: the skin. That's That's a great analogy and actually speaks
Speaker 1: to kind of how I feel about my relationship with it, Like, well,
Speaker 1: it's still kind of there, you know, he's I see
Speaker 1: guys around from time to time and maybe I get
Speaker 1: bit by it, but again, it it doesn't break the
Speaker 1: skin certainly in the way it used to. For me,
Speaker 1: I'm in a good place with it right now. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean if people could think about their low mood
Speaker 1: or their depression in that way, I think it would.
Speaker 1: It's not that it's completely um reassuring that everything's fine,
Speaker 1: but it but it does allow you just see that
Speaker 1: this is something that can vary from a wild beast
Speaker 1: that you know has got savage fangs and and um,
Speaker 1: you you better uh, you better run. If it's coming
Speaker 1: to something that's been domesticated. It's still it's still not
Speaker 1: human and it's still you know, maybe has a bad day. Um,
Speaker 1: but you can you can live with it, you can
Speaker 1: coexist with it. I think that's I think that's the
Speaker 1: idea that's the reality. People do co exist with it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think that's a great term for what I
Speaker 1: was sort of stumbling over earlier, was this idea of coexistence.
Speaker 1: You know that life with it is still entirely possible.
Speaker 1: Back to the facets. You may not have all nine
Speaker 1: of those down, but you can have enough of them
Speaker 1: that that the whole thing is the coexisting relationship. And
Speaker 1: there are a lot of nice talks, lots of nice talks.
Speaker 1: Love the dogs. Well, thank you so much for taking
Speaker 1: the time to come on again. I will continue to
Speaker 1: follow your work, and um, you know, I think you're
Speaker 1: you're doing great stuff. And I think this latest direction
Speaker 1: of looking at what people who have come out the
Speaker 1: other side of depression and are thriving, you know, what
Speaker 1: they're doing, I think is such a interesting area for
Speaker 1: research and I really hope that um it proves fruitful
Speaker 1: and and and get some traction. Well. Thanks, I'd be
Speaker 1: grateful if I could come on in another five years
Speaker 1: and tell us to tell us to talk about what
Speaker 1: we found. Hopefully we'll we'll have some interesting things by
Speaker 1: then to report on any anytime, The offer is standing.
Speaker 1: If you've got something interesting about depression, will be glad
Speaker 1: to talk about it. Well, that sounds great, all right,
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Jonathan, have a great evening, all right,
Speaker 1: Thank you. Take care bite. If what you just heard
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