1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: works dot com. The film which you are about to 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: see is an account of the murder and tragedy surrounding 4 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: one idyllic weekend at Failing Hope Summer Camp. In a 5 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: series of traumatic events escalating with the appearance of a 6 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: masked psychopathic killer and the deaths of fifteen victims during 7 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: a single night's madness of the campus and staff. Only 8 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: one female campus survived. This is the story of her 9 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: nightmarish ascension from innocent girl next door to bloodcake survivor. 10 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: The events of this weekend were to lead to a 11 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: legacy of summer camp blood bats and sleep over tragedies. 12 00:00:50,720 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: It seems to have no end. Hey, welcome to Stuff 13 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 14 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: I'm Christian Sager. Hey, just as a reminder, this is 15 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: one of our October episodes where we are trying to 16 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: incorporate all things scary and spooky and October and Halloween 17 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: themed into the show. That includes Monster Science, which is 18 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: our video series that will have a new season at 19 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: the end of the month. Beginning on October, We'll have 20 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: four new episodes of Monster Science. That's right, VHS late 21 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: in daytime horror host inspired explorations of the real science 22 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: that potentially underlies some of the more interesting monstrous specimens 23 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: from our horror cinema. Yeah, and I should point out 24 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: to to clarify that these videos are going to be available. Uh, 25 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: you'll be able to watch them on how Stuff Works 26 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: dot com. They will share them on our social media 27 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: sites like Facebook, Twitter, and Tumbler, and they'll also be 28 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: on the how Stuff Works YouTube channel. I believe, yes, 29 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: So check them out there. And another thing that we're 30 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: going to be doing that's brand new in October is 31 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: we're going to be trying out periscope. We've just had 32 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: so much listener mail lately and we want to take 33 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: an opportunity to respond to it that we decided instead 34 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: of doing a listener mail episode, let's try periscope out. 35 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: We'll do a few listener mails, we'll see how it goes, 36 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: and we'll interact with you out there who are tuning in. 37 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: So my understanding is that you can talk in real 38 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: time via like text I think on periscope. So Joe, 39 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: Robert and I are going to be doing that at 40 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 1: the end of the month. Keep an eye out for 41 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,679 Speaker 1: more information about when we'll be doing it, so you 42 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: can tune in. Alright, So, as are hopefully entertaining little 43 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: bit at the beginning of this episode illustrates we're talking 44 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: about a familiar trope in the world of horror cinema. 45 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: We're talking about final girls and how that plays into 46 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: our culture, our perception of gender, into feminist theory and 47 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: to film critiquing, and to basically the symbology that informs 48 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: our lives. Yeah, and so if you're not familiar with 49 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: this trope, the basic idea of a final girl is 50 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: that in horror movies, mainly slasher horror movies, the survivor, 51 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: the final survivor is usually a young woman who has 52 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: somehow outsmarted the slasher killer uh and is the only 53 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: one that survives. And and oftentimes it's because uh, she's 54 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: outsmarted them, or she's you know, somehow engaged in a 55 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: way that the victims were not right, Yeah, or she 56 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: finds this hidden strength to finally fight back against her 57 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: adversary and and stabbed the heck out of him for 58 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: a change. Yeah, And that evolves over the course of well, 59 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: I guess like we could say that this may be 60 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: started in the sixties uh and leading up to present 61 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: day slasher films, and there's a there's a whole host 62 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: of accade emic literature that looks into this one particular trope. So, yeah, 63 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: this is not um particularly quantitatively heavy science episode, but 64 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: we felt like it was really important, both because it 65 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: fits into our theme for the month and because we're 66 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: all horror fans here, but also because horror stories are 67 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 1: just a really important way that we as human beings 68 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: try to make sense of our world. They're the scary 69 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: stories that we used to tell around the fire. Uh. 70 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: And they also are important cultural texts that have popularity 71 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: to them, you know. And these movies in particular especially 72 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: popular with adolescence. Uh. And they're also considered outsider cinema 73 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: to a certain extent, even though they make a lot 74 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: of money. Uh. Slasher films in particular are just on 75 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 1: the outside of mainstream acceptance. Right, So there's something interesting 76 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: going on there about how it fits in and doesn't 77 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: fit into our mainstream culture. I also want to quote 78 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: a study by a guy named Mark Edmondson here at 79 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: the Getting where he says that the horror film gathers 80 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: up all of our free floating anxieties, binds them to 81 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: a narrative and brings that anxiety under temporary controls. So 82 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: if you step back from the gore and the kind 83 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: of silliness of slasher films, there's something deeper going on 84 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: there that you can look at and kind of try to, 85 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: I guess decrypt as to what's going on in society, 86 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: what's happening within our culture right now, and what that 87 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 1: says about us. Yeah, and plus when you look at 88 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: horror films in particular, but also various exploitation films and 89 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: outsider films as well, like these are often the first 90 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: filters that we run our cultural anxieties through way before. 91 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: You know, some Oscar nominated picture cackles it maybe a 92 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: more nuanced and tasteful way. You know, it's a good 93 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: example of that. What's in this case Silence of the Lambs. 94 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So we had like a good twenty maybe 95 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: thirty years of slasher films before Silence of the Lambs 96 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 1: was That's right, innsidered a class and it wins the Oscar. 97 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but yeah, so some films like that will 98 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: eventually come along and pick up some of these vibes 99 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: and some of these cultural anxieties, but the horror film, 100 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: like the the early horror exploitation film, that's where you'll 101 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: see us grappling with it for the first time. Yeah. Absolutely, 102 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: and and and so let's start by, uh, sort of 103 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: giving you some examples here. So my favorite final girl 104 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: has got to be Ellen Ripley Alien. Uh. And that's 105 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: not necessarily a slasher movie, although I guess an argument 106 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: could be made that the Alien is sort of a slasher, right. 107 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: I think it functions the same way as a slasher movie. 108 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: For sure. It's a very masculine, phallic entity, a lot 109 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: of sexuality bound up in it. And then really, Scott 110 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: is the first to admit that it's essentially a haunted 111 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: house picture in space. Yeah. But so you know, if 112 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:54,799 Speaker 1: you need some other examples, the classics are Laurie Strode, 113 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: the Jimmy Lee Curtis character in the first two Halloween movies. 114 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: Pretty Much every Friday the Thirteenth movie, right, has a 115 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 1: final girl in it. I can think of a single 116 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: one that ends with a guy living instead of I 117 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: think they have granted my all. My Friday the Thirteenth 118 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: feeling took place like on a late night US network. Frankly, 119 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: they all kind of blend together after a while. Last year, 120 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: my wife and I tried to watch I think, like 121 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: all of them in a row, and they just even 122 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: watching them all in a row in like a week 123 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: or two, it just turned into one morphous mess. But 124 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: you got Sally in the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Nancy from 125 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: the original Nightmare in Elm Street, and then of course 126 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,679 Speaker 1: the Nev Campbell character Sydney, and the Screen Movies, which 127 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: I think the Screen Movies tried to do a little. 128 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: They tried to do kind of a postmodern e thing 129 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: with final Girls in horror genre expectations, but but ultimately 130 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: it fulfills the Final Girl troupe. There's some recent ones 131 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: to like, uh, that movie Your Next, the Home Invasion 132 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: movie with the guys with the animal masks, the Final 133 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: Girl in that was particularly adventurous. I guess I would 134 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: say like I was really surprised at how like physically 135 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: competent she was. I think like the gimmick of that 136 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: movie is like it turns out that like she's not 137 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: this helpless on jinue and that like it turns out 138 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: she's like from the Australian Outback or something like that 139 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: and has all these skills that enable her to just 140 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: utterly decimate these these guys invading the home that she's in. 141 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: And then there's the remake of Evil Dead does a 142 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: really good job of this by replacing the Ash character 143 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: with this character Mia, who ultimately ends up saving the day. Yeah. 144 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed that remake. I don't know a lot 145 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: of people were mixed on that, but I I loved it. 146 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: I thought it was beautifully shot, it and it was 147 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: it felt dangerous. It felt like a dangerous horror film 148 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: that I did. I had no idea where things we're 149 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: gonna go, which is especially potent when you're considering that 150 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,959 Speaker 1: it's a reboot and a remake. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean 151 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: I was also a wary of it, and I thought 152 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: that the creator, I can't remember his name right now, 153 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: but just did an excellent job really kind of injecting 154 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: new life into that series but also making like a 155 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: really yeah, beautiful, beautifully shot and also just terrifying movie. 156 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: I mean there is stuff in that movie. I consume 157 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: a lot of horror fiction in all kinds of different media, 158 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: and Yeah, that that movie definitely uh raised my my 159 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: goose bumps. Another recent film, J out of character j 160 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: in it It follows, which is when I really loved 161 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: And It Follows is especially interesting to look at the 162 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: Final Girl Trope as well, because it's all about uh 163 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: sexuality and the repercussions of sex in a way that 164 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 1: the Final Girl Trope has revolved around for decades. Yeah, 165 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: accepted deals with it in a in a more reserved way, 166 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: I feel, more intelligent way, because you could have easily 167 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: made a very sleazy eighties film with the same premise, 168 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: but it goes in a more thoughtful indie direction. Another 169 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: beautiful horror movie. I love the way that Oh yeah, 170 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: beautiful soundtrack, beautiful shot um. Sarah in The Descent one 171 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: of my favorites. That's a complicated one though. I mean, 172 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil that movie at all, but 173 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: Sarah does some stuff that is morally ambiguous in order 174 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: to make it to the end. It is that there's 175 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: one's definitely complicated, the two lead and another complicated one 176 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: or the two leads in the French horror film High Tension. 177 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: We were telling me about this earlier. I haven't seen 178 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: this movie. Yeah, a lot of it hinges on some 179 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: big spoilers, so I'm gonna refrain, But if you haven't 180 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: seen it, that one's a real nail biter. You already 181 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: mentioned Sally Hartessy from the first Texas Chainsaw Master Movie movie, 182 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 1: but also Stretch in the second one is also a 183 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: very strong example and one that's often cited in some 184 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: of the texts about Final Girls because she that's a 185 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: mixed picture with a lot of weird elements, but the 186 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: ending is pretty pretty stellar. And as we'll talk about 187 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: in a moment, throughout the history of this Final Girl 188 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: trope and sort of how it reflects our cultural treatment 189 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: of gender and also of our anxieties, there's an interesting 190 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: thing that you you can sort of trace throughout the history, 191 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: and Sally is a good marker point for that, although 192 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: I'd also argue that Psycho is as well, where that 193 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: the Final Girls end up going from being fairly passive 194 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: and not really having agency and their survival too, where 195 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: we've got that year next version where like you know, 196 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: the the Final Girl has these just amazing survival skills 197 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: that allow her to just constantly out with the enemy. Yeah, 198 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: you see this cultural evolution really right, because your earliest 199 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: examples even like pre not even horror film, but you 200 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: have your damsel in distress, right, you look at old 201 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: monster moving, it's and it's just when's the guy gonna 202 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: come and shoot the monster and save the screaming girl. 203 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: The girl can hardly run from the monster because she 204 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: faints fase screaming. She's that helpless, right. Yeah, I just 205 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 1: rewatched The Shining last night on on the big screen. 206 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: They played it here at the Plaza Theater in Atlanta, 207 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: and I love that is my favorite movie of all time. 208 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: I love that movie. But yes, there are multiple scenes 209 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: in that and that's but where the female lead and 210 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: that is just constantly like falling down all over herself 211 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: and screaming and crying and barely able to make it 212 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: away from from her maniac husband. So like your early examples, 213 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,959 Speaker 1: are that right, that the final girl survives just by 214 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: out running the horror and it's maybe it's just even 215 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: pure dumblock. It has nothing to do with any strength 216 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: of character or survival skills. But then it begins to 217 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 1: evolve into something else. So we see this kind of transition, right, 218 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: And there's two different ways to look at it too. 219 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: In the seventies, there's this brief sort of renaissance and 220 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: horror where you know, horror movies are sort of progressive, 221 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: they're challenging norms, especially the depictions of female subjectivity. But 222 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: then in the eighties, there's this idea that they're done 223 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: eyeing that status, right, Yeah, that they get may be 224 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: a little more exploitative and schlocky and kind of the 225 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: trend setting that takes place in the genre in the 226 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: seventies then be kind of comes the cruising standard. But 227 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: then there's also sort of an argument to be made 228 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: and the and the woman who actually created the term 229 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: final girl, uh makes this point that there there's also 230 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: a reversal from the passive final girl in the seventies 231 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: movies leading up to the eighties or I guess late 232 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: seventies early eighties, that even though those movies are more 233 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: exploitative and less narratively interesting, maybe that uh that at 234 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,839 Speaker 1: least those final girls have like a certain amount of 235 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: agency to them. Yeah, they began to to to fight back, 236 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: to to outfight and outthink their opponents. Oh and you know, 237 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: like before we get into this, I should mention to like, 238 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: like we're not the only ones who are sort of 239 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: fascinated by this subject. In fact, there was a movie 240 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: that came out I think two years ago that was 241 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 1: called Final Girl, that was all about sort of subverting 242 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: the trope of the Final Girl. And then there's another 243 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: movie coming out I think in like two or three 244 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: months called Final Girls that looks like it's sort of 245 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: like a meta horror comedy kind of deconstructing the whole 246 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: Final Girl troupe. Yeah, Cavin in the Woods of course also, yeah, yeah, 247 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: very much. So. Alright, so let's before we get into 248 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: to the Final Girl um scenario more, let's let's back 249 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: up and just talk about one of the key primary 250 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: criticisms that are often that's often leveled at horror by 251 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: serious commentators, and that's that horror films are essentially about 252 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: the destruction of women. Um. They're hunted, they're tormented, they're killed, 253 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: they scream, they faint. The male monsters often get to 254 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: observe their nudity or a carnal act before they then 255 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: pounce out, you know, they get to observe the female 256 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: sexual power, ultimately the reproductive power of females, and then 257 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: they punish them for They punish them for their sexuality 258 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: repressed that they're dangerous, power of report auction, slicing, the 259 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: feminine power of reproduction with the male power of death. 260 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: And this is a stance that you will find you 261 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: probably will find still today. And a lot of sort 262 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: of you know, critical looks at horror, but definitely in 263 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: like academia the eighties and nineties, when it was really 264 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: starting to look at horror cinema, there was a this 265 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: sort of stance that well, of course this is you know, 266 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: abject and terrible towards women. Uh. There were studies that 267 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: like did some analysis interviewing male horror viewers and finding 268 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: out that they reported that they enjoyed slasher films significantly 269 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: more than their female counterparts did, and that their enjoyment 270 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: it was heightened by the company of a distressed woman. 271 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: So there's something about watching a horror movie that that 272 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: excited men when their you know, girlfriend or wife or 273 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: whatever was with them and and scared. Uh. And then 274 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: on the other side, there was a study that was 275 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: done by two guys Nolan and Ryan these are their 276 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: last names, uh, and they did like a gender association 277 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: with words about the movies, and they found that all 278 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: genders associated the words disturbing, horror, girls, evil, scary, killer, 279 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: and young with horror movies. Now you just go to men. 280 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: Men associate the words shocked, angry, helpless, agitated, and frustrated, 281 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: while women associate with fear, nervousness, vulnerability, horrified, exposure, and betrayal. 282 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: So they make a case, basically by doing this word analysis, 283 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: that female viewers were not being empowered by watching horror movies, 284 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: as some you know, we'll get into, as some academics argued, 285 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: no matter who gets to live at the end, whether 286 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: it's a male character or female character, they didn't feel 287 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: empowered and instead they were identifying with the unlucky victims. 288 00:16:57,880 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: You know, this reminds me a bit of a Kamio 289 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: non job any bits and stand up talking about the 290 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: fear that there was somebody in the attic or ghost 291 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: in the attic, and talking about like the scenario in 292 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: which what he goes up there with like a path 293 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 1: pot on his head and a knife in his hand 294 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: and he said, well, what happens if I come back 295 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: down and I say, oh it's okay, everything's fine. I 296 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: murdered somebody. You know, because even these these scenarios where 297 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: like the woman lives at the end and she's the 298 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: triumphant final girl, she's just been through a traumatic life 299 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: jarring experience and she probably had to murder somebody, right, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, 300 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: the PTSD alone would maybe not be worth it. Yeah, 301 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: So I can see where a female or any audience 302 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: member who stops to think about it, I would say, 303 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: you know, this is not This is still not a 304 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: happy ending. It's maybe not the worst ending, but it's 305 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 1: not a happy ending. Well, and that's basically how the 306 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 1: argument goes, right the uh, the generic argument leveled against 307 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: her movies. And I say generic, but I should say, 308 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: like there is validity to this argument that these films 309 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: feature women as victims and they are subsequently harmful to 310 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: willing to women. The monster is in fact killing them 311 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: for expressing their sexuality, right, like nine times that attend 312 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 1: in these movies. There's something going on with sex or 313 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: just femininity that ultimately ends up with the monster killing them. Yeah, 314 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: And I you know very so much from picture to picture, 315 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: But I feel like all anybody who's watched enough horror 316 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 1: can definitely think of some examples where you're watching the 317 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: film and you really think, yourself, come on, this is 318 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: not this is just about you, and you're really screwed 319 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: up ideas about that necessary. Well that and or just 320 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: trying to sell the movie for it's a sexy factor. Yeah, 321 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: I mean as as I said before talking about you know, storytelling, 322 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 1: and and certainly with films, you're even if you don't 323 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: know what you're doing, and certainly a lot of people, 324 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: with a lot of first time filmmakers, they go to 325 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: horror because it seems like an easy genre to play in. 326 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: Even if you don't know what you're doing, You're playing 327 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: with an established pieces, enough established symbols and enough established 328 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: storytelling tropes that you can end up compelling, building something, 329 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: assembling something that has a compelling potent or perhaps you know, 330 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: misleading or dangerous idea that resonates with the viewer. So 331 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: you may just be putting together a pictures saying what 332 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: kind of horror picture can I make over the course 333 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: of a weekend with some friends, and in doing so 334 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: makes something that that really seems to portray some horrible 335 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: ideas about gender, or if you're lucky, makes something that's 336 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: kind of transcendent. Yeah. Yeah, Well, Roger Corman would be 337 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: a good argument for that case, right, And like in 338 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: some cases, that guy was cranking up films in like 339 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 1: five days or something, and I'm sure a lot of 340 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: those were just like the studio being like money, money, money, money, money, 341 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: And then in other cases there's some Corman stuff that 342 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 1: people go back and look at his classics. Yeah. As 343 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: I I often tell people, I I think I enjoy 344 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,959 Speaker 1: bad films with moments of brilliance in them more than 345 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: I enjoy like solid, great films, because there's something great 346 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: about watching something that's kind of flocky, kind of awful, 347 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,719 Speaker 1: and then out of nowhere a great performance or out 348 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: of nowhere they hit upon this just brilliant idea or 349 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: something that seems to accidentally resonate. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, I 350 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: understand what you're saying. And I've actually seen some more 351 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: extreme arguments made that that the treatment of females in 352 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 1: horror films it's really kind of a pseudo human sacrifice. 353 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 1: This kind of like primal um right used to subjugate 354 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 1: women under the rule of men, to to to sacrifice 355 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: them again to is male power of violence that makes 356 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: up for the female power of creation. Yeah, and I 357 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: can again like I think that there's a certain amount 358 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: of validity to that, But then I also think, like 359 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: there are women who watch and enjoy and make horror films. Uh, 360 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 1: and that there you know, are some people like like 361 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: I saw one academic study looking into this where one 362 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: uh writer made the argument that women who view horror 363 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: on a regular basis are ex traders and that they 364 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: are perpetuating oppressive norms. Uh. And this is this is 365 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: a topic that's perfect for our sister show stuff. Mom 366 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: never told you. I'd love to hear their take on this, 367 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,239 Speaker 1: But uh, that seems a little extreme to me. I 368 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,719 Speaker 1: know lots of women who love the horror genre and 369 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: participate in it and work in it, whether as actors 370 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: or makeup artists or directors. You know, there's just all 371 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: kinds of roles within those and and yes, it's so 372 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: those roles have definitely expanded in the last what like 373 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 1: almost twenty years since the original Final Girl article was written. Yeah, 374 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: and you see these filmmakers and various people and get 375 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: involved in the process. And there's also the opportunity to 376 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,360 Speaker 1: play with it and change it and and figure out 377 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: what is, uh, you know, what's not working in terms 378 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: of the betrayal of women in horror films and tweak 379 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: it a little bit. Like one of the more recent 380 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 1: films from the softca sisters, the Twin Canadian collectors their stuff. 381 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: I think it's great. Yeah, they they came up a 382 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: lot in the research. Yeah. Yeah, they're one of their 383 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: more recent films. I think it was Seen No Evil too. Yeah, 384 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: I haven't seen that one, but I've seen American Mary. Okay, well, 385 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 1: this one is. This is the one with the wrestlers. 386 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 1: This is Yeah, this is the one with the w 387 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 1: W E is Kane in it, and uh, it's it's 388 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: far better than any horror film with Kane that should 389 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: be they do. I think they do a pretty knockout 390 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: job and have some surprises in it. I think American 391 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: Mary is really like if you want to look at 392 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: the Final Girl trope, or look less at Final Girls 393 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: and more at kind of just how women are treated 394 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: in horror cinema. That's a fascinating movie. It's a really 395 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: interesting film. Yeah. Yeah. Um. There's an interesting article in 396 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: the journal Horizons that actually is just called feminist horror. 397 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: Uh and it says it's written by a woman whose 398 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: last name is Gilmore, and it says done right. The 399 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: horror genre is full of subversive possibility and a female audience, 400 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: especially for young female audiences who seem to be hungry 401 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: for this promise. Uh So there's this idea there, right, 402 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 1: like that the the process of watching these movies is 403 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: in some way cathartic, right, and that it provides an 404 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: imaginary space where we can confront our anxieties and work 405 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: through the real life trauma. That we have the things 406 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: that we're worried about in the real world through these constructions, 407 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: through these narratives, which is ultimately, you know, why we 408 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: tell stories, just to figure out how the world works 409 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: and to have a better understanding of how we exist 410 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: within it. And I also want to draw on another 411 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 1: study here that I think helps to illuminate how complex 412 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: we can get with some of these pictures. Uh looking 413 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: at ourn article titled a Cognitive Approach to the Films 414 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: of Dario Argento by Nia Edwards b. And this is 415 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 1: interesting because Dari Rigenta is one of these these filmmakers. 416 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 1: It's easy to to really throw some stones at him 417 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: in terms of the treatment of women because he's he 418 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 1: has this kind of reputation. He's kind of infamous for 419 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: often playing the hands of the killer himself, and he'll 420 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: have these really stylized deaths of his of female victims 421 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: in the films, and certainly those stick with you, like 422 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: the Deaths and Suspiria particularly so if you, yeah, if 423 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: you haven't seen any Darya Agento films, I guess Suspiria 424 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: is probably the most famous of them, right, Yeah, that's 425 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: definitely the starting point and probably you know, arguably the 426 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: stopping point. But maybe he's best known for the sort 427 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: of yes, stylistic, colorful uh framing, I would say, of 428 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: his sequences, and there's just some really beautiful sets in 429 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: those movies as well. The blood in our Genta's movies 430 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 1: looks like some weird kind of like uh, water colored 431 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: syrup or something. Yeah. That it's like the weird surreal 432 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 1: aspect here. And you know ultimately what you're getting into 433 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: this since something that's really dwelled upon in a lot 434 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: of the the academic papers about his work. You're talking 435 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: dealing with an aesthetic representation of death um, which is 436 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: interesting to think about that because you don't necessarily see 437 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: that term thrown around in looking at paintings that have people, 438 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: and it's like paints of of martyred saints or paintings, 439 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 1: say the death of Cleopatra, which is a common subject 440 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: in older paintings, you know, the show This Beautiful Woman 441 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 1: that is just stuff and new that is just poisoned herself, 442 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: you know. Um, But in films, in horror films in particular, 443 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: you see it a lot. And what's wrong If you're 444 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: gonna have a film in which people were murdered, why 445 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: shouldn't it be beautiful? Why can't the cinematography be elegant? 446 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: Does it? And then in doing that to what extent 447 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: does that warp the message of the picture? Right? And 448 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 1: there's a certain point where I understand, like the form 449 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 1: and the function and the narrative all kind of come 450 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,160 Speaker 1: together as one thing. But then when you're analyzing them 451 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 1: or reviewing them in any kind of capacity, it's also 452 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: important to separate them out as well. Right. Yeah. One 453 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 1: of the things that the author uh it was be 454 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: uh gets into here is that it's it's easy for 455 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 1: a lot of these papers to really just focus on 456 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: that aesthetic representation of death, focus on the female death 457 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: scenes themselves, as opposed to the many male deaths that 458 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 1: take place in our gentle films, and the fact that 459 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: quote his killers are often female or queer and have 460 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: only become killers due to a past trauma. Relating to 461 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: their position as a non male right. So that actually 462 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: connects to another article that I read for this which 463 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: is called The Final Girl, A few Thoughts on Feminism 464 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: and Horror by a guy named Donato Tataro. Uh and uh. 465 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: You can find this on off screen dot com actually, 466 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: but basically his argument is that final girls are an 467 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 1: American phenomenon in horror cinema, that it's American female characters 468 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: who are murdered because they have sex, whereas in European horror, 469 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: which Daria are Gento is very much a part of 470 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: those female characters murder because of their carnality, right because 471 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: of their femininity, and that they're victims are mainly male. 472 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: And not only that, but the male victims are usually 473 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: attracted to their female killers, so they're not disavowing their 474 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: femininity in a way. That um, some people argue that 475 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: The Final Girl is sort of androgynous in a way. Interesting. Yeah, 476 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: And his big example, and I have not seen this movie, 477 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 1: was that the same year that Texas Chainsaw Massacre came 478 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,719 Speaker 1: out in ur there was a movie that was made 479 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: in Europe called The House of Whip Chord. And I'm 480 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,479 Speaker 1: really interested in this now, spoilers for Texas Chainsaw Massacre, 481 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: I guess, but that movie begins the exact same way 482 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: that Texas Chainsaw Massacre ends, with a semi comatose woman 483 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: escaping from some kind of a situation that's horrific, and 484 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: she's picked up by a truck driver. But in that situation, 485 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: it starts from her perspective and then works back through 486 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: a flashback, so there's agency there through her. And then 487 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 1: I suspect, you know, not having seen it, I suspect 488 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: that Tataro's argument plays out and that the killer and 489 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: this is probably a female, and there's you know, a 490 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: certain amount of sex involved there. So in either case, 491 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: you can just really go into the deep end looking 492 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: at just the cultural um roots of any given horror culture. Yeah. 493 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 1: So this leads us to the big one, which is 494 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: Carol J. Clover. She's the one who termed the word 495 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 1: or the phrase final girl, and it was in her 496 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: book which is called Men Women in Chainsaw, Gender in 497 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: the Modern horror film UH. And the basic argument goes 498 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: like this that this trope UH flipped the identification of 499 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: horror movies so that male and female viewings are a 500 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: little bit different than they would be expected to be 501 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: subsequently making it more complex. All Right, we're gonna take 502 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: a quick and when we come back, we're going to 503 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: continue looking into this idea of the final girl with 504 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: more specific examples and discussion of its uh it's evolution. 505 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: All Right, we're back, and you know I want to 506 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: I want to read just a quote here from Carol J. 507 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: Cloger's men Women in Chainsaws Gender in the modern horror film, 508 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: where she just really sums up sort of the court 509 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: thesis here right. The image of the distressed female most 510 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: likely to linger in memory is the one who did 511 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: not die, the survivor or final girl. She is the 512 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: one who encounters the mutilated bodies of her friends and 513 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: perceives the full extent of the preceding horror and of 514 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: her own peril, who has chased, cornered, wounded, whom we 515 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: see scream, stagger, fall, rise, and scream again. She is 516 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: abject terror personified. If her friends knew they were about 517 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: to die only seconds before the event, the final girl 518 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: lives with the knowledge for long minutes or hours. She 519 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: alone looks death in the face, but she alone also 520 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: finds the strength either either to stay the killer long 521 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: enough to be rescued ending A, or to kill him 522 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: herself ending B. But in either case, from nineteen seventy 523 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: four on, the survivor figure has been female. So her 524 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: using nineteen seventy four there, she's I think, using Texas 525 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: Chainsaw massacre as a starting point. Yes, okay, which makes 526 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: sense given the title of her book. Yeah, And so 527 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: it's it's interesting looking to these studies of the Final 528 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: Girl because as it becomes the trope, you have the 529 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: undisputed main character of many films in the genre are female, 530 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: and they're enjoying the most potential character development. Granted that 531 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: character development doesn't necessarily take place in any in any 532 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: notable degree, but the potential is there. She becomes the 533 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: central point of viewer identification in the film. Yeah. So 534 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: there's another side to this argument. So some people argue 535 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: against Clover's stipulations here. So I think it's important as 536 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: we go along here to sort of throw in their 537 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: two cents and then you know, you, like us, can 538 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: sort of make up your own mind about it. The 539 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: other side goes like this, that these films are all 540 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: made by different creators and yet somehow they consistently all 541 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: characterize the heroine as powerful at the end, and that 542 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: some somehow she's a figure who questions authority and is 543 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: always determining the course of her own life. And in 544 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: fact she has agency more than any of the other 545 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: characters to other than maybe the killer. Uh. And they, 546 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: you know, the final girls are the ones that make 547 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: things happen in control events. Uh. And then you know, 548 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: often the argument is made that that's within a system 549 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: of patriarchy. Right, So if we're really looking at gender 550 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: influence in these films, you know, frankly, uh, they're in 551 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: patriarchal settings. And then the killers are mostly male, right, Yeah, 552 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: they're in a they're in a may dominated world or 553 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: very particular that they're often in an adult, male controlled world, 554 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: and suddenly they're encountering this masculine horror, this terror that 555 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: is often a product of that world. Nobody in the 556 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: adult world and the male powered world that are going 557 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: to actually help them. They tell them, oh, there's a 558 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: killer in the woods, and they go, there's nothing. There's 559 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: somebody trying to kill me in my dreams, go to sleep. Right, 560 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: it's always the like figures in authority, the sheriff for 561 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: the doctor and the mental institution or whatever. Yeah, even 562 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,479 Speaker 1: if they try to help, they're going to get knocked out. 563 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: So the Final Girls, as Clover presents them, are sort 564 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: of known for their courage, their resourcefulness, They've got investigative 565 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: abilities that help them save the day. But Clover thinks 566 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: that the important thing is this is that as viewers 567 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: when we're watching it, we start off watching these movies 568 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: by sharing the perspective of the killer. Right, So I 569 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: think of it from the Halloween is a perfect example 570 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,479 Speaker 1: of this, Like the camera is actually Michael Myer's viewpoint, right, 571 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: but we shift part way through the film to the 572 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: final Girl. We start identifying with her rather than the killer. 573 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: So the Final Girl is always female. But at the 574 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: same time, they have kind of a you know, quote 575 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: unquote male nous for the audience. So, you know, Clover 576 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: argues this isn't necessarily a development, right, that they in 577 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: some way are used as a vehicle for male viewers 578 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: sort of sata massochistic fantasies. Especially if you're identifying with 579 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: the killer, you're looking through the killer's eyes as he 580 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: you know, uh saws his way through hordes of women. Yeah, 581 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: I mean there's often a very phallic aspect of it. 582 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: You know, the killer is stabbing, the killer is impaling, 583 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: the killer is is using some sort of weapon that 584 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: is some sort of a you know, a phallic uh symbol. Yeah. Yeah, Well, 585 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: so she says, male viewers see the Final Girl's traits 586 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: is inherently male, which ultimately complicates the gender understanding going 587 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: on in these films. So she argues, well, wait a minute, 588 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: is the Final Girl somehow hermaphroditic or androgynous? You know, 589 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,879 Speaker 1: when she becomes her own savior, she subsequently becomes a hero, 590 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: and that the male viewer identifies with heroes as being male. Uh, 591 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 1: And so that's where sometimes this like boyishness gets mixed in. 592 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: There's an argument and I don't agree with this, like 593 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 1: some of this, some of the stuff I think also, uh, 594 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:29,919 Speaker 1: you know, let's keep in mind that Clover was writing 595 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: in There's me a lot of horror movies that have 596 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: been made since then that subvert this. But there's an 597 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: argument that that, uh, final girls tend to have gender 598 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: ambiguous names, and so like her, examples are Lorie, Terry, Stretch, Will, Joey, 599 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: and Max. I don't know where all of those come from. 600 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: Laurie's obviously from Halloween and stretches from Texas jamesaw Massacre too. 601 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: But lord, I don't think of Laurie necessarily as being 602 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,320 Speaker 1: gender ambiguous. And then, you know, I think think of 603 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: the classic examples like Ellen, Sarah, Nancy, Sally, those are 604 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 1: all fairly female names. So I don't know that I 605 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: I buy into that argument necessarily. But either way, Clover 606 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 1: says that the final girl is de sexualized and that 607 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 1: she's either unavailable or she's reluctant to be in relationships. Right, 608 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: So that ties into the she's probably one. She not 609 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: one of the ones who has sex which doesn't lead 610 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 1: to her being murdered by the monster. Um. Sometimes their virgins, 611 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: sometimes they're celibate. There's an argument to be made here though, too, right, 612 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: which is do heterosexual relationships prove a woman's femininity? It 613 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,240 Speaker 1: doesn't necessitate that you be female. You can be female 614 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: without participating in sex. Right. So there's complicated things in 615 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 1: there going on as well about like our understanding of 616 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: sex and what like how femininity can be expressed in 617 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,439 Speaker 1: film as well. Yeah, because certainly we have some still 618 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,879 Speaker 1: some very culturally mixed up ideas about about the answer 619 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: to that question. Yeah, But so Carol's ultimate argument is that, uh, 620 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: that it reverses or sorry, Carol Clover, I should just 621 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: like you know, Carol Clover's argument is that the function 622 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: of the Final Girl is that she reverses the spectator's gaze. 623 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,720 Speaker 1: So we originally see through the killer's eyes at the beginning, 624 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: like I said, and are even often kind of made 625 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: the route for the killer as the killer dispatches representations 626 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: of the worst teenagers. Yeah. Absolutely, but then when we 627 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: do see the killer, it's through the Final Girl's eyes, 628 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 1: and it's with clarity too, and that increases more and 629 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: more towards the end of a film. Right, So if 630 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: you think about Halloween, it doesn't like start off right 631 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: with you just seeing Michael Myers running around with a 632 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: with a hatchet or something like that, Right, It's slowly 633 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: builds up to the point where he's he's omnipresent. Um, 634 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,280 Speaker 1: and that you know, So there's a question here about like, Okay, 635 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: we looked at that study earlier that said that women 636 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: identify with the victims. So does that then mean that 637 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 1: the only viewer who's experiencing this gays gender reversal is 638 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: the male viewer? Then? And you know that that I'm 639 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: going to leave that question hanging out there. I think 640 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 1: Clover leaves it hanging out there too. I don't know, 641 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: I don't know what the answer I definitely would love 642 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 1: to hear from for from both male and female horror fans, 643 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,320 Speaker 1: but particularly female horror fans, and comes to this, Yeah. Absolutely, 644 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: So let's just take a quick walk through some of 645 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: the big touchstone moments in the evolution of the Final Girl. 646 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: So even before we get the get Final Girl going properly, 647 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: we have to mention Psycho, which is just an example 648 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: in which the female is obliterated likely and Psycho, I 649 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: think maybe I don't know if I would call it 650 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: the first slasher film, but it's definitely one of you know, 651 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 1: the classic uh in many years before Texas Chainsaw'm Masaker. 652 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 1: But um, there is an inherent gender fluidity in the 653 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: story itself, you know, if you if you don't know Psycho, 654 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,959 Speaker 1: the idea of sort of bouncing back and forth between 655 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: the identity of male and female as a killer is 656 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: part of the story there. But yes, absolutely, like the 657 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: women are killed in that and not only does it 658 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: obliterate them, but it obliterates sort of the female identity 659 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: of who we think the killer is in that movie. 660 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: All right, So we've mentioned Sally Hartessy from Texas Chainsaw 661 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,760 Speaker 1: maskar alrad In, and she kind of survives just through sheer, 662 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 1: almost like through sheer outrage and sheer care. She just 663 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 1: screams her head off, runs, doesn't really fight back, but 664 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: basically just runs and it survives. Sally doesn't do anything 665 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: particularly active to lead to her own escape other than 666 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 1: just kind of running and ending up in the right 667 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 1: place at the right time where she jumped in the 668 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,320 Speaker 1: back of a truck. But then Laurie Strode and seventy 669 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: eight and John Carpenter's Halloween, this is a real turning 670 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: point because she does her share of screaming and running, 671 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: but she reaches the point where she turns and fights back, 672 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: which it actually picks up the knife and wields the 673 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,800 Speaker 1: killer's own weapon against him. Yeah, this is the Jamie 674 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 1: Lee Curtis character. I'll always remember that scene where she's 675 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: in the closet and she's she she finally attacks back, 676 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 1: you know, with the long knife and cuts Michael Myers. Yeah, 677 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: and so according to tow Clover, as as we get 678 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,800 Speaker 1: into the eighties, you know, certainly there's that differ quality 679 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: that we just discussed earlier, but you see more and 680 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 1: more um situations where the qualities of the character are 681 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 1: enabling her, of all the characters, to survive. Uh she has. 682 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: It's something that would otherwise seem unsurvivable. And it's not 683 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: just random like, oh, this one happened to survive. No, 684 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,399 Speaker 1: this is the one that had the character that would 685 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,439 Speaker 1: allow her to survive. And she's even like you see 686 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 1: this kind of transformation. That's it's kind of uh nietzsch 687 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 1: In right that you know from the from life school 688 00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,720 Speaker 1: of war, what does not kill me makes me stronger. 689 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: So they kind of transform into this new survivor person 690 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,239 Speaker 1: through the experience. Although there is kind of a weird thing, 691 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 1: especially with the franchises that have so many sequels, like 692 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,360 Speaker 1: like Friday the Thirteenth and The Nightmare in Elm Street, 693 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 1: where the final girls of a previous movie will show 694 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: up at the beginning of the sequel and somehow be 695 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: dispatched relatively quickly. Yeah, but they do in some instances 696 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: maybe we'll get to this, they do sort of bestow 697 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: their final girl like role upon a new final girl. Yeah, yeah, 698 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 1: they kind of pass it off. The Nightmare movies are 699 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: frequently mentioned, um because especially the first one or two, 700 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 1: you know, we see Nancy Thompson going on a journey 701 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,360 Speaker 1: of exploration. So it's not just about running from the enemy, 702 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: but also understanding it, figuring out how it works, diving 703 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,399 Speaker 1: into its world a little bit, in this case, into 704 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,879 Speaker 1: the world of dream in order to to to figure 705 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,359 Speaker 1: out how to stop this monstrous adversary. Yeah, she really 706 00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,280 Speaker 1: is like the investigator. She figures out the like secret 707 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: history of for a Krueger. That kind of reveals it all, um. 708 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 1: And another example similar to this is that the Hell 709 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: Razor films, where you have just a very powerful adversary 710 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,279 Speaker 1: in the form of the Centobytes, and uh, final girl 711 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,759 Speaker 1: Christie Cotton survives in large part by our wits by 712 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 1: doing a little bargaining and also you know, a little 713 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 1: literal puzzle solving with the limit configuration. Yeah, Hell Razor 714 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: is a tough one for me because I don't necessarily 715 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 1: think of Hell Razor as being a slasher film, and 716 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,880 Speaker 1: I don't think of Christie as being or Kirstie as 717 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 1: being a final Girl. I guess because I think of 718 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: the Cento Bytes as being like gender Listen away like, 719 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: I know that they do have gender. I know there 720 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 1: are like there's a female Cento byte and and Pinhead 721 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,800 Speaker 1: is very much male. But there is more going on 722 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 1: with them than just like a man chasing people around 723 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,879 Speaker 1: with a knight. I would agree, Yeah, there's certainly Clive 724 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,600 Speaker 1: Barker was coming from a more fantastic point of view 725 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: when he created them. Yeah, yeah, certainly. Now we've already 726 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 1: mentioned Alien, but there that the case it's often made 727 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 1: here is that that Ripley surviving through adaptation, pure survivalism. 728 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:11,879 Speaker 1: So a lot of a lot of situations are thrown 729 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: at her, be it an out of controlled android or 730 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 1: this you know, perfect masculine, empowered, phallic organism coming at her, 731 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: and she's able to just to roll with it and 732 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: do it has to be done to survive. Yeah, and 733 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: so one thing that's worth pointing out with that we 734 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 1: were talking about the naming conventions um is that when 735 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,040 Speaker 1: the screenplay for Alien was written, none of the roles 736 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,760 Speaker 1: had genders assigned to them. So like the name Ripley 737 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily male or female, but when it was cast, 738 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: they ultimately went with Sigourney Weaver. I think that was 739 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 1: with all the Roles. I don't think that that was 740 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: necessarily just with the Ripley character, and we were talking 741 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 1: about this before the before recording. I can't remember if 742 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,239 Speaker 1: her first name Ellen was applied in Alien or if 743 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 1: that didn't show up until Aliens. Yeah, that's I may 744 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,839 Speaker 1: be misremember it, but I think that's how it went. Um. Now, 745 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 1: when we get into the Friday Thirteenth Friday the Thirteenth 746 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,319 Speaker 1: franchise um, there's a lot of a lot of room 747 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 1: for discussion there too. It's pointed out by Sarah Trinkansky 748 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:15,800 Speaker 1: in the piece. I believe we already referenced this Final 749 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,680 Speaker 1: Girls and Terrible Youth Transgression in nineteen eighties slasher Horror. Yeah, 750 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: this is a great piece. It was in the Journal 751 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 1: of Popular Film and Television, and I really liked it 752 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: because not only did it apply Clover's theories, but then 753 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,240 Speaker 1: it sort of brought them forward and it was almost 754 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,319 Speaker 1: like a nice literature review of sort of what had 755 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 1: gone on in these studies up until then, and then 756 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:43,919 Speaker 1: also presenting her own, you know, theoretical application to this. Yeah, 757 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:47,440 Speaker 1: and and Trinkanski does a good job of of just 758 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 1: talking about like the evolution within the Friday the thirteen 759 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 1: franchise alone. Prince is one of the early examples of 760 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 1: Jenny Field, who who I believe that we're using as 761 00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 1: the cover art for this episode with a pitchfork and 762 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 1: Friday thirteenth to she impersonates Jason's dead mother in order 763 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:06,800 Speaker 1: to out with the killer and eventually it brandishes a 764 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:10,760 Speaker 1: pitchfork at him. Eventually we get to Friday that thirteenth 765 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:15,279 Speaker 1: Part seven, in which Tina Shepherd uses not only does 766 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,799 Speaker 1: she stand up to the the adversary here, she uses 767 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,439 Speaker 1: telekinetic powers against the monster. She collapses at the house, 768 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:26,160 Speaker 1: she raises the dead, so ultimately she out supernaturals the 769 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: supernatural adversary instead of merely out running or out fighting. 770 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,239 Speaker 1: And yeah, I would say that that is probably the 771 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,440 Speaker 1: height of Clover's argument of the Final Girl becoming more 772 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,560 Speaker 1: and more powerful, right like in that It's been a 773 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:41,880 Speaker 1: long time since I've seen that movie, but I very 774 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,880 Speaker 1: you know, specifically, remember it's established that this girl has 775 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,359 Speaker 1: these like magical powers right from the beginning to sort 776 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:53,919 Speaker 1: of give Freddy a uh level playing field, I guess 777 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,000 Speaker 1: when it comes to the showdown, like I remember her 778 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,279 Speaker 1: like telekinetically throwing nails into his face and stuff like that. 779 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: Isn't she also like sort of responsible for bringing him 780 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 1: back or something like that, Like I think spoilers for 781 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 1: again another movie that's like maybe thirty years old, but 782 00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,239 Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, I think like Freddie or no, sorry, 783 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,480 Speaker 1: Jason is tied to the bottom of Crystal Lake with 784 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: like a boulder or something, and she's trying to bring 785 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:25,879 Speaker 1: back her dad and she accidentally raises Jason Vorhees from 786 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 1: the dead instead, and so she's the reason why he's 787 00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,360 Speaker 1: able to run him buck again. Huh. That's interesting, and 788 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: you know that that I wondered to what extent that 789 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,880 Speaker 1: plays into this other point that we've already touched on 790 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 1: a little bit that does Trinkansky uh discusses this at length. 791 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,960 Speaker 1: Is that you see this idea that youths in the 792 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: horror films are subjugated by an adult world and assaulted 793 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,440 Speaker 1: by the very monsters of the adult world creates. And 794 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:55,720 Speaker 1: in this case with with with this psychic Tina Shepherd, 795 00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,640 Speaker 1: like is she she's kind of accidentally engaging in that 796 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:03,800 Speaker 1: world and creating of problems. Uh? Yeah, it's it. It 797 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,800 Speaker 1: becomes kind of complicated. The more layers of franchising mythew 798 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 1: layer over it. For years, I've always said that that 799 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,440 Speaker 1: was my favorite of the Friday of the thirteenth. I've 800 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 1: never really unpacked it. Maybe it's because of that. It 801 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:19,080 Speaker 1: was just more interesting because she had so much more 802 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,399 Speaker 1: agency than the other Final Girls did. And maybe it's 803 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 1: it's kind you know, you know, you're rooting so much 804 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,120 Speaker 1: for the Final Girls, and here's a picture where suddenly 805 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 1: the Final Girl doesn't just have like the minimum number 806 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,759 Speaker 1: number of tools to defeat the adversary, but she has 807 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,800 Speaker 1: like a war chest of supernatural tools, and still it 808 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:38,840 Speaker 1: takes like the course of the picture for her to 809 00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:43,160 Speaker 1: deal with him. So ye. Now, another great point that 810 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,560 Speaker 1: Trankanski points out that is that there's a paradox here 811 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,719 Speaker 1: with the Final Girls. So the heroine's must recognize this 812 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,680 Speaker 1: is a quote here, heroine's must recognize the source of 813 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,920 Speaker 1: the monsters to defeat it, identify with the monster, and 814 00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,640 Speaker 1: on some level accept its rebellion but realized that it 815 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: is a product of disciplinary power and must be defeated. 816 00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,239 Speaker 1: So that kind of gets into this whole exploration of 817 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:08,800 Speaker 1: the monster. Figuring out the monster and to a certain 818 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:13,080 Speaker 1: extent um being able to identify with it. In order 819 00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,400 Speaker 1: to defeat it. Yeah, and there's also an argument to 820 00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,480 Speaker 1: be made, you know, going back to Clover's thing that 821 00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:23,320 Speaker 1: I keep going to say, clover Field. Going back to 822 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,839 Speaker 1: Clover's original argument is that the Final Girls themselves as 823 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,560 Speaker 1: they evolve from the seventies into the eighties and then 824 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,719 Speaker 1: to where we are today, they don't always show any 825 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,000 Speaker 1: kind of special skills, right that ensure their survival. It's 826 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,360 Speaker 1: almost like they're picked at random, sometimes from the cast. 827 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,719 Speaker 1: Sally is certainly an example of that, right, Like why 828 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,240 Speaker 1: would she survive any more than any of the other characters, 829 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,760 Speaker 1: But because she's more I don't know, she's more beautiful. 830 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,239 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe maybe that was who knows what was going 831 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,880 Speaker 1: through Toby Hooper's head. But then you know, uh, you 832 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,360 Speaker 1: get to for instance, like the Tina character right of 833 00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,120 Speaker 1: their teenth then of course she's the one who's her 834 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,239 Speaker 1: vibes because she's the one who can throw nails with 835 00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:07,319 Speaker 1: her mind. Yeah, whereas the others don't really have that capability. 836 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,320 Speaker 1: I would like to see a horror film that that 837 00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,120 Speaker 1: turns that on its head and has the psychic nail 838 00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:14,880 Speaker 1: throwing girls. She ends up like dying, and then the 839 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,080 Speaker 1: Final Girls like why why me, I don't have any 840 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,800 Speaker 1: of the skills necessary. Um. The woods to a certain 841 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,719 Speaker 1: extent played around with that. That's true. That one other 842 00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:27,880 Speaker 1: thing I want to touch on here before we get 843 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,520 Speaker 1: into some outrow thoughts. UM. Robert J. King, PhD has 844 00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:35,760 Speaker 1: that interesting piece on psychology today titled the Damsels Causing Distress, 845 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:37,640 Speaker 1: and he kind of gets into gets into some of 846 00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:39,960 Speaker 1: the final girls stuff we've mentioned already, but he draws 847 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:45,440 Speaker 1: in uh this example from a band to mythology in Africa, 848 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,680 Speaker 1: where they have this mythological figure called the wise Girl 849 00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,960 Speaker 1: who regularly saves the day, for for the for the 850 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:58,800 Speaker 1: for the tribespeople from various ogres and monsters um and 851 00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:03,120 Speaker 1: uh and he in particular there's one called uh Ginko 852 00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,600 Speaker 1: am Diema of the Jossah that he says the stars 853 00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,360 Speaker 1: in a series of quote body scatological and violent tales 854 00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:15,759 Speaker 1: with themes of murder and blood, vengeance, sex, birth, and 855 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,360 Speaker 1: the balance of power between men and women. So she 856 00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:22,200 Speaker 1: sees the danger from the start, and everybody ignores her, 857 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,080 Speaker 1: maybe they even ridicul er, but then through courage and resourcefulness, 858 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,560 Speaker 1: she defeats the ogre or the monster or what have you. 859 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:33,640 Speaker 1: So she's smart, she investigates the monster, ends up killing 860 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,640 Speaker 1: the monster, and provides the point of identification for the audience. 861 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,640 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, so that just kind of gets 862 00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:42,880 Speaker 1: back to our original point that this is not just 863 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,920 Speaker 1: a US phenomenon, and that also just like that horror 864 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:49,520 Speaker 1: stories in general and human culture, whether it's here or 865 00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:54,080 Speaker 1: in Africa or Europe wherever, that they serve a purpose, 866 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:58,239 Speaker 1: a larger purpose of sort of you know, consolidating the 867 00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,560 Speaker 1: anxieties of that culture and putting them in a place 868 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,719 Speaker 1: that you can confront them. Yeah. Alright, So there you 869 00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,840 Speaker 1: have it, the final girl in an in essence in 870 00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,399 Speaker 1: a nutshell. Uh. As is always the case with film 871 00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,640 Speaker 1: studies that you know, it's important to note that, you know, 872 00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,719 Speaker 1: we're talking about an entire genre here, and often to 873 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,879 Speaker 1: talk about the genre you have to talk about particulars, 874 00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,080 Speaker 1: and you can really go down the rabbit hole talking 875 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:25,760 Speaker 1: about individual films and maybe lose sight of the larger, 876 00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,759 Speaker 1: larger picture. Yeah. I think that's true. I mean, as 877 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:34,839 Speaker 1: anybody who has scrolled through Netflix's horror genre selection knows, 878 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:39,120 Speaker 1: there's a small sampling of classic, amazing horror movies and 879 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,000 Speaker 1: then there's just like a treasure trove of terrible one 880 00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:47,800 Speaker 1: star direct to video horror movies that are for the 881 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,520 Speaker 1: most part misogynistic garbage. Yeah, there's plenty of that out there, 882 00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,440 Speaker 1: to be sure, you know. And and then there are 883 00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,200 Speaker 1: also people that that charge that just having this trope 884 00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,239 Speaker 1: with a final girl out there and even having some 885 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,400 Speaker 1: of the scholarship up surrounding it, that it gives people 886 00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:08,520 Speaker 1: an excuse to engage in cinematics sadism. So it just 887 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,759 Speaker 1: goes round and round, right, it becomes a pretty complicated loop. 888 00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,440 Speaker 1: I'm sure it will be an argument that's uh, you know, 889 00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,000 Speaker 1: will be around as long as horror stories are probably 890 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:22,399 Speaker 1: around for um. And to tie that in, speaking of which, 891 00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:25,600 Speaker 1: I just want to remind our audience that don't forget 892 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,520 Speaker 1: about monster science. That's because we have a monster Science 893 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,520 Speaker 1: Well I say, we's really uh Robert and our other 894 00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:37,640 Speaker 1: our host Dr Anton Jessup have and Tyler Tyler and 895 00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:41,640 Speaker 1: our producer Tyler Tyler hand and have an episode on 896 00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:46,000 Speaker 1: Jason Vorhees, right, and uh is there Michael Myers. Yeah, 897 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,560 Speaker 1: we did Jason Vorhees and we did a Michael Myers. 898 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,920 Speaker 1: So there's more to be said about the science of 899 00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:57,640 Speaker 1: Slasher films and you can watch those on UH stuff 900 00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,560 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com, or we're gonna be 901 00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:04,760 Speaker 1: posting them all throughout October on our social media channels Facebook, Twitter, 902 00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,560 Speaker 1: and tumbler. UH and I would personally like to hear 903 00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:10,919 Speaker 1: from our audience on your thoughts about the whole Final 904 00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,160 Speaker 1: Girl thing. So what do you think. Do you think 905 00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:17,239 Speaker 1: Clover was right about, you know, the shifting of the 906 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:21,320 Speaker 1: male gaze turning gender into a more complicated thing in 907 00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,239 Speaker 1: horror movies or do you think that that's all just 908 00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:27,720 Speaker 1: navel gazing and that really that these movies are ultimately 909 00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:31,440 Speaker 1: about getting off on hurting women. Yeah, we'd love to 910 00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:33,680 Speaker 1: hear from everyone on this, and it's always checks out 911 00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:35,279 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. I'll make sure 912 00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,799 Speaker 1: that the landing page for this episode includes links out 913 00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,080 Speaker 1: to some of the references that we've made here, some 914 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,120 Speaker 1: of the the related content on the site, as well 915 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,120 Speaker 1: as some offside material. So let us know and reach 916 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,360 Speaker 1: out to us, and don't forget that you can always 917 00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,000 Speaker 1: hit us up at the email address blow the Mind 918 00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:56,360 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com. For more on this 919 00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,480 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff works dot com. 920 00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,239 Speaker 1: Difficult to beat eating groove difficult to beat. The