Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim
Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Mankey listener Discretion advised. Welcome to
Speaker 1: a very special episode of Noble Blood. I'm Danish Wartz
Speaker 1: and I'm joined by Caroline Halliman, who's the digital director
Speaker 1: of Town and Country and the author of the new
Speaker 1: book The Kennedy's and the Windsors, which is out next week,
Speaker 1: available for pre order now. It is a fascinating book,
Speaker 1: super readable, super fun, like the best sort of historical
Speaker 1: gossip about these two families that are a global obsession. Caroline,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
Speaker 2: to talk to you today.
Speaker 3: My first question is what drew you to a book
Speaker 3: focused on these two families in particular?
Speaker 4: Sure, so I am as the digital director at Town
Speaker 4: and Country.
Speaker 2: I have covered both of these families for just.
Speaker 4: About ten years now, so I came into writing this
Speaker 4: book with kind of a deep background on both of them.
Speaker 2: But what really kind of.
Speaker 4: Sparked the idea to write a book was when Prince
Speaker 4: William announced that he was bringing his Earthshot Prize, which
Speaker 4: is his big environmental initiative to Boston, and that was
Speaker 4: in the second year of the prize, and he talked
Speaker 4: a lot about how President Kennedy's Moonshot and his kind
Speaker 4: of ambition to go to the Moon and his declaration
Speaker 4: that we would do that within ten years was really
Speaker 4: an inspiration and a driving force for William's big project.
Speaker 4: And I just started thinking about that, and I was like,
Speaker 4: that's so interesting because it was really Prince William kind
Speaker 4: of leaning on the Kennedy iconography and the Kennedy mythology
Speaker 4: and kind of like the language of the Kennedys to
Speaker 4: launch his big project on a global scale, to bring
Speaker 4: that to America.
Speaker 2: And I was like, that is.
Speaker 4: Just it just felt like a reversal of the whole,
Speaker 4: like the Kennedy so the closest thing that America has.
Speaker 2: To the royal family.
Speaker 4: And so I actually covered that visit to Boston for
Speaker 4: Town and Country, and I just kept thinking about that,
Speaker 4: and I kept thinking about the different connections between the
Speaker 4: two families. And the following week, Prince Harry had another
Speaker 4: event with another branch.
Speaker 2: Of the Kennedy family.
Speaker 4: He received the Ripple of Hope Award, and so I
Speaker 4: just kept thinking about it, and I kept thinking about
Speaker 4: Joe Kennedy in the UK prior to World War Two,
Speaker 4: and I kept thinking about, like, you know, the nineteen
Speaker 4: sixty one meeting at Buckingham Palace, which has been fictionalized
Speaker 4: in the Crown and all of these things, and I
Speaker 4: was like, there must be a book about this, and
Speaker 4: so I was, you know, I was looking it up.
Speaker 4: I was trying to find something, and there wasn't one.
Speaker 4: And so then I was like, well, maybe maybe I
Speaker 4: should try and write something. And I pitched it to
Speaker 4: my agent. I had been kind of working on a
Speaker 4: separate idea and she was like, that's it, Like, that's
Speaker 4: the book. You should start on that. And so that's
Speaker 4: kind of the origin story.
Speaker 3: I love that infamous visit that you mentioned that was
Speaker 3: depicted in The Crown, when Jackie Kennedy and JFK visited
Speaker 3: Queen Elizabeth and her husband Philip. As you mentioned, it
Speaker 3: was depicted in The Crown, but you also write about
Speaker 3: it very beautifully in the book. Can you explain the
Speaker 3: context of that visit and what happened?
Speaker 4: Sure, So the nineteen sixty one visit, it came after
Speaker 4: President Kennedy was in Vienna, which was kind of like
Speaker 4: a key meeting with Khrushchev about the Cold War, and
Speaker 4: they talked about the state of Germany, they talked about
Speaker 4: the state of Laos. It was a big meeting for him,
Speaker 4: and they knew that he wanted to debrief with the
Speaker 4: UK Prime Minister afterwards, but he didn't want to make
Speaker 4: kind of other allies in NATO mad about essentially the
Speaker 4: US UK special relationship. So they wanted to get to
Speaker 4: the UK. And actually his god daughter was being baptized.
Speaker 4: So Jackie Kennedy's sister Lee Radswell's daughter Tina had been premature,
Speaker 4: it had been a difficult pregnancy, and this was a
Speaker 4: good enough reason for them to get over to the
Speaker 4: UK after Vienna that President Kennedy's goddaughter was going to
Speaker 4: be baptized, and so that's a whole lot of context
Speaker 4: for why they were there. But while they were there,
Speaker 4: Queen Elizabeth was like, of course, please invite them to dinner,
Speaker 4: you know, like, let's make this happen. And so there
Speaker 4: was a little bit of back and forth about whether
Speaker 4: the Radzawells would be invited because they had been divorced,
Speaker 4: and there was just all of this back and forth.
Speaker 3: But as we know, divorce in the royal family at
Speaker 3: this time.
Speaker 4: Big no now exactly exactly, but eventually President Kennedy and
Speaker 4: Jackie they get to Buckingham Palace for this dinner. And
Speaker 4: what the Crown gets right is that Jackie was not
Speaker 4: exactly impressed with Buckingham Palace. She thought that, you know,
Speaker 4: she thought that Prince Philip and she thought that the
Speaker 4: Queen were nice enough. But we have several accounts of
Speaker 4: her saying, you know that she was a little bit disappointed.
Speaker 4: She was disappointed with the food, she was disappointed with
Speaker 4: with the state of Buckingham Palace, and she was disappointed
Speaker 4: with what the Queen chose to do where. And I
Speaker 4: think that that little colonel has just like expanded and expanded,
Speaker 4: expanded beyond in the kind of telephone of history and
Speaker 4: has led to this kind of idea that the two
Speaker 4: women had this intense rivalry or something like that, and
Speaker 4: that's not true. And when you think about it, I mean,
Speaker 4: they had a lot in common. They were very different,
Speaker 4: but at the same time, they were both young mothers.
Speaker 4: They were both two women, you know, under enormous scrutiny.
Speaker 2: In the public eye. And what I like to.
Speaker 4: Point to is that they were both passionate equestrians. Like,
Speaker 4: if you know anything about these two women and their hobbies,
Speaker 4: you know that they love horses. So even though that
Speaker 4: first meeting together was kind of you know, as I say,
Speaker 4: Jackie was less than impressed, she returned.
Speaker 2: The following year and had lunch at bucking And Palace.
Speaker 4: Again that is depicted in the Crown and is fictionalized.
Speaker 2: Certainly, what we know happened is.
Speaker 4: That they talked about horses in that second meeting, and
Speaker 4: that's what they really connect it on. And you know,
Speaker 4: I just love that bit of history. I think of
Speaker 4: them both as kind of family matriarchs, but also horse girls.
Speaker 3: They are both horse girls, and both of them I
Speaker 3: often think about how lonely and isolating it is to
Speaker 3: be famous. Feels almost like a diminishing word for what
Speaker 3: the Queen or what Jackie is like so constantly scrutinized,
Speaker 3: and there are so few people who understand what that's like.
Speaker 3: And even if these two women weren't quite friends, there
Speaker 3: was probably an understanding between them.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I think that hits the nail right on the head.
Speaker 4: They have singular experiences that very few other people can understand,
Speaker 4: and you know, they occupied different roles, but I think
Speaker 4: there was commonality there for sure.
Speaker 3: Do we know how the Queen felt about Jackie? The
Speaker 3: Crown depicted her as a little envious that Jackie was
Speaker 3: more beautiful, glamorous, this French speaking woman. Was that a
Speaker 3: fictional invention?
Speaker 4: I think yes, it was fictionalized, that is true, you know.
Speaker 4: But I would say that certainly the Royal family they
Speaker 4: looked to the Kennedys for kind of like an injection
Speaker 4: of vitality. They saw how successful that was, and the
Speaker 4: royal family definitely.
Speaker 2: Took inspiration from that in the years to come.
Speaker 4: And frankly, I think they could do that again, honestly
Speaker 4: kind of in present day.
Speaker 3: Yes, I think you're absolutely right. What I also find
Speaker 3: interesting that you mentioned before is this symbiotic relationship between
Speaker 3: the two of them. How did the Kennedys benefit from
Speaker 3: their royal associations, both with the idea of Camelot and
Speaker 3: by associating themselves with the Windsors.
Speaker 4: Sure, I think to answer that question you have to
Speaker 4: go back to Joe Kennedy, who was President Kennedy's father.
Speaker 4: He was the ambassador to the UK prior to World
Speaker 4: War Two. When he started in that position when he
Speaker 4: brought his family over to the UK, he saw it
Speaker 4: as a real opportunity to kind of push them up
Speaker 4: the social ladder, and to that effect, you know, Rose Kennedy,
Speaker 4: his wife, JFK's mother, really saw kind of their time
Speaker 4: in the UK as kind of the first step toward
Speaker 4: JFK's presidency. So while they were there, they took every
Speaker 4: opportunity to socialize with royals and with aristocrats, and for
Speaker 4: their children too as well.
Speaker 2: And I know you did an episode I can't.
Speaker 4: Remember if it was earlier this year or at the
Speaker 4: end of last year, about Kick, who is fascinating.
Speaker 3: I was about to bring up for audience members who
Speaker 3: don't remember. Kick Kennedy was the sister of JFK who
Speaker 3: married into British nobility, and she died very tragically young.
Speaker 4: Yes, but during their time in the UK, you know
Speaker 4: that was seen as a real benefit of this position,
Speaker 4: is that Joe could have his children make these connections
Speaker 4: with people, and you know, those were some of JFK's
Speaker 4: very close associates during his presidency as well.
Speaker 2: I feel like that's a great example.
Speaker 4: And then you kind of look toward the myth making
Speaker 4: of Jackie. After President Kennedy's death and the idea of
Speaker 4: Camelot for listeners who are unfamiliar. In the handful of
Speaker 4: days after President Kennedy's assassination, Jackie gave an interview for
Speaker 4: Life magazine in which she kind of crafted the myth
Speaker 4: of Camelot. She spoke about how she and JFK had
Speaker 4: listened to records the famous Broadway musical Camelot, how that
Speaker 4: was one of his favorites, and she kind of made
Speaker 4: a comparison blinking the Kennedy administration and their family to
Speaker 4: the myth of King Arthur and his knights in Camelot,
Speaker 4: and that it was a time of you know, prosperity
Speaker 4: and goodness and you know, celebration of the arts and all.
Speaker 2: Of those things.
Speaker 4: And so it is a link that she crafted between
Speaker 4: royalty and the Kennedy family, and the Kennedy's had been
Speaker 4: called kind of the closest thing that America has to
Speaker 4: the royal family during the Kennedy administration. That didn't start
Speaker 4: with this, but it certainly has had a long lasting
Speaker 4: impact on how this family is viewed in American popular culture.
Speaker 4: And so it's that idea of the Kennedys as royalty
Speaker 4: as the closest thing America has to royalty. It has
Speaker 4: really perpetuated, and I think that stems from Jackie. And
Speaker 4: she didn't really give interviews after that, which makes that
Speaker 4: interview all the more important. It really solidified what she
Speaker 4: wanted JFK's legacy to be, and then she kind of
Speaker 4: left it at that and she kind of disappeared, which
Speaker 4: I find fat. I mean, she didn't disappear, but from
Speaker 4: giving interviews and sharing her perspective. She never wrote a
Speaker 4: memoir or anything like that, and I think I think
Speaker 4: that link was important to her.
Speaker 3: One thing I find really compelling about your book is
Speaker 3: the parallels you draw between generations. I think that the
Speaker 3: comparison between Jackie Oh and Queen Elizabeth makes sense. I
Speaker 3: think people also sometimes associate her with Princess Diana, just
Speaker 3: as this young figure who, as you said, injected some
Speaker 3: vitality into the families you married into. But you and
Speaker 3: the book draw a link between JFK Junior and Diana,
Speaker 3: which makes a lot of sense as two very glamorous
Speaker 3: figures who died young. Can you talk a little bit
Speaker 3: about that comparison.
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure, I mean Diana is someone who I think
Speaker 4: you could compare it to many people in the Kennedy family.
Speaker 4: I think she's a fascinating figure. But during the nineteen nineties,
Speaker 4: there were, you know, few people as famous as Princess
Speaker 4: Diana and JFK. Junior, and I think two people who
Speaker 4: were courted by the media intensely, and I think how
Speaker 4: they handled it is interesting. I think a lot of
Speaker 4: people make a comparison between Princess Diana and Carolyn Besseid Kennedy,
Speaker 4: and absolutely there's one to make there, Yeah, but I
Speaker 4: think think Carolyn was not as adept at kind of
Speaker 4: handling the media.
Speaker 2: She just kind of she didn't have a sense of
Speaker 2: how she.
Speaker 4: Could work with them or make it work for her
Speaker 4: in any way, which Diana was kind of exactly exactly.
Speaker 4: And I would say John F. Kennedy Junior was the
Speaker 4: same way. He didn't let it bother him as much
Speaker 4: because well, first of all, it's all he'd known his
Speaker 4: whole life. That is a differentiator between these two people,
Speaker 4: but he certainly knew how to use it to his advantage.
Speaker 4: I don't think he was upset to be on the
Speaker 4: cover of People magazine, you know, sexiest man alive like
Speaker 4: that did not bother him.
Speaker 3: I don't know who it would bother.
Speaker 2: But so I do think that that.
Speaker 4: I think that that is the interesting comparison between them
Speaker 4: is kind of is in the sense of the media, certainly.
Speaker 3: In terms of the tragedy of these two families. How
Speaker 3: do you think each fail family handled their respective tragedies
Speaker 3: in individually. Obviously these are different systems in place, but
Speaker 3: the royal family was sort of stemied in their ability
Speaker 3: to respond to the death of Diana.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think certainly.
Speaker 4: I mean that also was a comparison between these two
Speaker 4: people is the way they were grieved by the public
Speaker 4: and the kind of almost cathartic outpouring of grief by
Speaker 4: people who didn't know them, the parasocial relationship that people
Speaker 4: had between themselves and Princess Diana and themselves and John F.
Speaker 2: Kennedy Junior.
Speaker 4: In both cases, people kind of created memorials to them outside.
Speaker 4: There was weeping in the streets in both cases, which
Speaker 4: is just difficult to kind of imagine that, but that's
Speaker 4: what happened, and the parallel of public grief for both
Speaker 4: of them was one of the first things that came
Speaker 4: to mind. And obviously with Princess Diana, and her sons
Speaker 4: kind of walking behind her coffin.
Speaker 2: And then for.
Speaker 4: Every time there is a death in the Kennedy family,
Speaker 4: it is public. Even for a death like Tatianis Shlasburg recently,
Speaker 4: you know, there were photographs of the family leaving the
Speaker 4: funeral that were published in a variety of publications. There
Speaker 4: is and she was not a very public facing person.
Speaker 4: That is one of the parallels between these two families
Speaker 4: that illustrates how challenging it is to be in the
Speaker 4: public eye. There are so many benefits to being as
Speaker 4: famous as these two families are. That is undeniable, but
Speaker 4: there are because so much is expected of them. There's
Speaker 4: an expectation for them to grieve in public, and that's
Speaker 4: just not something that is expected of very many people.
Speaker 3: How did celebrity culture and sort of the paparazzi culture
Speaker 3: affect both families in the nineties and early two thousands.
Speaker 4: Sure, I think we think about paparazzi and we think
Speaker 4: about celebrity culture today and we think, wow, it's really obtrusive.
Speaker 2: These people are being photographed all the time.
Speaker 4: All of that take it back to the nineties and
Speaker 4: amplify it to the nth degree. It was different back then,
Speaker 4: and Diana is the perfect example. Yes, she manipulated and
Speaker 4: had a relationship with the press. She was able to
Speaker 4: get what she wanted from them in some cases, but
Speaker 4: certainly they also pursued her. That is absolutely true. And
Speaker 4: the same was the case for Carolyn in the nineties.
Speaker 4: They would not leave them alone. There was no way
Speaker 4: for them to kind of escape interest. In the modern day,
Speaker 4: I think there is. It's not a parallel, but it's
Speaker 4: it's interesting to think about the fact that everyone has
Speaker 4: a cell phone. That is a way that you cannot
Speaker 4: escape that in the modern day. But you know, I
Speaker 4: think recently about Tom holland AND's and Deaya. They got married,
Speaker 4: nobody seen pictures, nobody knows about it. That is possible. Now,
Speaker 4: that wasn't really possible in the same way. So yeah,
Speaker 4: it's just different.
Speaker 3: We'll find out how possible it is if we get
Speaker 3: secret pictures of Taylor Swift.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 3: That's going to be the real test. So the meeting
Speaker 3: between the Kennedy's and the Windsors in nineteen sixty one
Speaker 3: is very famous, But are there any other times that
Speaker 3: these families have come together that you find notable?
Speaker 4: Sure this is it's not exactly a meeting necessarily, But
Speaker 4: one of my favorite parts of the book is is
Speaker 4: Jackie covering Queen Elizabeth's coronation as a journalist. Prior to
Speaker 4: Jackie marrying JFK, she worked as a journalist at the
Speaker 4: Washington Times Herald in DC, and she, you know, was
Speaker 4: sent to cover the coronation for her Inquiring Camera Girl column,
Speaker 4: which was kind of a man on the street column.
Speaker 2: And so she covered the.
Speaker 4: Ship over which was which she dubbed kind of the
Speaker 4: Coronation crossing, and then she and she spoke with with
Speaker 4: numerous people on the ground. She reported, you know, from
Speaker 4: the ground about all of the festivities leading leading up
Speaker 4: to the coronation. She went to several kind of legendary
Speaker 4: parties after the coronation, and I this is kind of
Speaker 4: is my favorite chapter because I feel like it offers
Speaker 4: rare insight into what Jackie was like before she was famous,
Speaker 4: which I think is really interesting. It's a great parallel
Speaker 4: between her and Queen Elizabeth because it's kind of these
Speaker 4: two young women on the brink of exceptional lives, kind
Speaker 4: of right on the edge of something. And you know,
Speaker 4: Jackie is funny and she has these doodles that she drew,
Speaker 4: and she's just just you know, I just I love
Speaker 4: it because, like I said, you know, she was so
Speaker 4: public and polished during the Kennedy administration, and then she
Speaker 4: gave these kind of final interviews then you don't hear
Speaker 4: from her again, and so it's just a really insightful
Speaker 4: look at who she was at her core as a
Speaker 4: young woman.
Speaker 3: I love that. What would you say are the things
Speaker 3: that each family has learned from each other? What lessons
Speaker 3: have they taken from the other side.
Speaker 2: That's a great question.
Speaker 4: The kind of youth and vitality piece of it, I
Speaker 4: think is what the Royals had learned from the Kennedys,
Speaker 4: and they looked to them and that was a piece
Speaker 4: of kind of what they saw as helpful and the
Speaker 4: pr of it all. I think they saw that and
Speaker 4: they were like, Okay, you know, that is the way
Speaker 4: to go.
Speaker 2: I think both of.
Speaker 4: These families, their histories and their perceptions have been so
Speaker 4: shaped by television, and I think that the Kennedy presidency
Speaker 4: and the Kennedy administration. You know, he won the debate
Speaker 4: because of TV. Jackie gave her kind of television tour
Speaker 4: of the White House, and you kind of see television
Speaker 4: as starting to have importance with with the coronation of
Speaker 4: Queen Elizabeth and kind of with other events.
Speaker 2: So I think that is so interesting.
Speaker 4: Their perception of how they are seen, I think is
Speaker 4: so key, and I think that's you know, the royals
Speaker 4: always knew that, but I think that was like one
Speaker 4: lesson they learned from the Kennedys. What the Kennedys took
Speaker 4: from the royal family, that's interesting. I think, again, not
Speaker 4: to keep talking about this, but the kind of you know,
Speaker 4: never complain, never explain, attitude of you know, not speaking
Speaker 4: to the press unless it's like absolutely necessary. You saw
Speaker 4: that with Jackie, You saw that with Caroline Kennedy, and
Speaker 4: I think you see that today. You know the reason
Speaker 4: why her speaking out against her cousin R. F. Kennedy Junior,
Speaker 4: prior to him being appointed to the Trump Cabinet, why
Speaker 4: that had so much impact is because she doesn't speak
Speaker 4: to the press. I think it had much more impact
Speaker 4: because of the rarity of it all.
Speaker 3: Yes, I think that that's completely correct. I think people
Speaker 3: understand the power of withholding now, especially in an era
Speaker 3: when as you said, everyone has a cell phone. It
Speaker 3: feels like there's so much information at any given time,
Speaker 3: there is power in saying less absolutely what future I mean, obviously,
Speaker 3: these families are in very different positions, given that the
Speaker 3: Windsors are literally monarchs. What future do you sort of
Speaker 3: predict for each family?
Speaker 2: Now, gosh, that's a good question.
Speaker 4: If you had asked me even two years about about
Speaker 4: the Kennedy's, I would have had a very different answer.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And as has something happened? Is something in the
Speaker 3: news or something?
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that R. F. Kennedy, Robert F.
Speaker 4: Kennedy Junior, being in the Trump administration has set them
Speaker 4: on an interesting path.
Speaker 2: He's been in the public eye.
Speaker 4: People ask me, you know, why do people care about
Speaker 4: the Kennedys still, And I'm like, well, I think there's
Speaker 4: all this history, and I think that they are so
Speaker 4: tied to the core of America and history given kind
Speaker 4: of the violent death of JFK.
Speaker 2: That's one reason. But now it's like Robert F.
Speaker 4: Kennedy Junior is in the news constantly right now, he
Speaker 4: is having an impact that people should be aware of,
Speaker 4: people should be paying attention to that. Also, you know,
Speaker 4: Jack Slosberg is running for Congress. He is kind of
Speaker 4: the next generation of the Kennedys, and I don't see
Speaker 4: him going away regardless of what the outcome of that
Speaker 4: race is, And so they are back in the cultural narrative.
Speaker 4: So I think watching those two people in particular, I
Speaker 4: think will be interesting to see the future of what
Speaker 4: that family means to American culture.
Speaker 2: There's also going to be a whole new show.
Speaker 4: About them on Netflix starring Michael Fassbender. And I think
Speaker 4: popular culture has kept them in the public, the forefront
Speaker 4: of the public mind, both families, certainly, but I think
Speaker 4: that will continue to keep them kind of in the
Speaker 4: conversation regardless of whether they continued to.
Speaker 2: Stay in politics. But I think they probably will.
Speaker 3: I mean, this podcast is called Noble Blood. I think,
Speaker 3: if nothing else, something that people are fascinated by is
Speaker 3: the juxtaposition of extreme wealth and power and privilege and
Speaker 3: tragedy and bodies that better than the Kennedy.
Speaker 4: Sure, sure, I think, yeah, absolutely. I think, for lack
Speaker 4: of a better phrage, the drama of it all. You know,
Speaker 4: it's kind of the cover of People magazine type stories,
Speaker 4: whether that is the glamorous wedding or the tragedy. I
Speaker 4: think that continues to fascinate or the family feod You
Speaker 4: know again, I think that is both relatable and intriguing.
Speaker 3: What about the Windsors, what is going to happen with them?
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously King Charles is getting older, William and
Speaker 3: Kate are next in line, But how do you think
Speaker 3: they are going to continue to navigate a pretty archaic
Speaker 3: institution in the twenty first century.
Speaker 4: Sure, you know there are rumors from people who know
Speaker 4: more than me that Prince William would like to make
Speaker 4: changes when he becomes king. I think he did not
Speaker 4: have a formal investiture as the Prince of Wales. I
Speaker 4: think that is kind of an indicator of maybe his
Speaker 4: coronation will look quite different.
Speaker 3: And when I say that he didn't have a formal investiture,
Speaker 3: what does that mean?
Speaker 4: Sure, so, again not to refer to the crown, but
Speaker 4: I feel like it's a good kind of reference point
Speaker 4: for the average person. So you see in that King
Speaker 4: Charles when he became Prince of Wales had basically like
Speaker 4: a little coronation in Wales.
Speaker 3: If you remember the episode of Crowns, he learned a
Speaker 3: little well, she was.
Speaker 4: Very cute, yes, exactly, And you don't need that to
Speaker 4: become the Prince of Wales.
Speaker 2: But it is tradition.
Speaker 4: And ceremonial and all of those sort of things. So
Speaker 4: when Prince William became Prince of Wales, he decided we're
Speaker 4: not doing that.
Speaker 2: And I think that's.
Speaker 4: Interesting and I think it's a good thing to look
Speaker 4: at as perhaps an indicator of how things will be
Speaker 4: moving forward, maybe a little bit less pump and more
Speaker 4: kind of focus on the work. But at the same time,
Speaker 4: you know, a line that I particularly like from my
Speaker 4: book is that you know, is a royal still a
Speaker 4: royal if she wears Zara jeans? Like sometimes like royalty,
Speaker 4: people want the kind of escapism. People who are invested
Speaker 4: in royalty and are monarchists kind of at their core,
Speaker 4: they like all of that. They like the jewels, they
Speaker 4: like the traditions, they like all of that. And I
Speaker 4: think it's kind of like if you start to do
Speaker 4: away with those things, then what even is it?
Speaker 2: A little bit?
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, I will go on the record as
Speaker 3: saying I do not think a full authoritarian monarchy is
Speaker 3: the best known form of government yet. And yet I
Speaker 3: do want to say I think in a society where
Speaker 3: we don't believe in the most people don't believe in
Speaker 3: the divine right of kings that this is God himself
Speaker 3: anointing this one person to rule us. Without that sort
Speaker 3: of supernatural buy in, what is it that bestows this
Speaker 3: person power?
Speaker 2: Why?
Speaker 3: I think people sometimes then can blink and be like,
Speaker 3: I'm an adult person, you know, I'm an adult woman
Speaker 3: kneeling to another adult who's drinking from a gold cup.
Speaker 3: And when you strip away the context, what's left can
Speaker 3: look a little silly.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think where the British Royal family can do a
Speaker 4: lot of good is by spotlighting causes that are important
Speaker 4: to them, charities that are doing amazing work. I think
Speaker 4: the idea of public duty is a really great thing,
Speaker 4: and I think that's something that can be found in
Speaker 4: the Kennedy family as well. The issue that the British
Speaker 4: Royals are facing right now is that they don't have
Speaker 4: a lot of young people kind of to take over
Speaker 4: after this next generation. And I think, you know, there's
Speaker 4: a lot to be said about Harry and Meghan and
Speaker 4: everything kind of with kind of that that family feud,
Speaker 4: to speak of family feuds, but I think they could
Speaker 4: have used them.
Speaker 2: I guess that's what I'll say.
Speaker 3: That's that's I think spot on. And then just before
Speaker 3: I let you go, what advice would you give to
Speaker 3: the Windsors now if you could, if you were in
Speaker 3: charge of their PR.
Speaker 4: Oh, if I was in charge of the Windsors PR,
Speaker 4: give me that job. No, I think, you know, I
Speaker 4: think what Charles and Camilla did in the United States,
Speaker 4: like what we're talking, we're talking about kind of that
Speaker 4: just as their trip is coming to an end.
Speaker 2: I liked the way that.
Speaker 4: They they had a variety, They did a variety of things,
Speaker 4: some that's felt very traditional, some that felt very modern,
Speaker 4: and I think that that's important. I think they were
Speaker 4: speaking about things that they're passionate about, whether that's the
Speaker 4: environment or Camilla meeting with kind of advocates for you know,
Speaker 4: those who support people who have experienced domestic abuse, things
Speaker 4: like that. I think that's amazing. I think they should
Speaker 4: do more of that. I think that, you know, as
Speaker 4: often as William and Kate can be front and center
Speaker 4: as young people and talking about kind of the future
Speaker 4: of the monarchy, I think that's what they should be doing.
Speaker 4: I think they have to think about that from a
Speaker 4: PR perspective. Absolutely, it's the challenges that the windsors are
Speaker 4: facing were only amplified when Kate had a health crisis recently.
Speaker 4: Of course she couldn't work, she was kind of out
Speaker 4: of commission in that capacity, and Prince William was having
Speaker 4: to step up with his kind of nuclear family and
Speaker 4: things like that. Absolutely understandable, but I think it illustrates
Speaker 4: that they don't have as deep of a bench as
Speaker 4: they used to for young people doing the work. I
Speaker 4: don't know Edward and Sophie also, have you know whether
Speaker 4: that's maybe Lady Louise.
Speaker 2: Kind of doing some engagements. I'm not sure. It's kind
Speaker 2: of a they're kind of in a tricky position.
Speaker 3: Especially when I'm sure, as you recall, with Kate's health crisis,
Speaker 3: we saw sort of the social media conversation spiral out
Speaker 3: of control in a way that I think revealed the
Speaker 3: ways in which the current royal family maybe doesn't have
Speaker 3: quite as firm of grasp on the speed and ferocity
Speaker 3: of social media as they might have hoped.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, I think that it's been interesting to see
Speaker 4: William and Kate and their shift towards kind of making
Speaker 4: pre planned videos and things like that to stay a
Speaker 4: part of the conversation in a way that they can
Speaker 4: control where they might not have to be physically you know,
Speaker 4: visible or something like that, but they can still be
Speaker 4: putting out content, so to speak, at a more rapid clip.
Speaker 4: It's been I mean, I just think that's that's interesting
Speaker 4: kind of that they're tapping into that psychology.
Speaker 3: Is there any anything you learned researching this book that
Speaker 3: surprised you.
Speaker 4: I was less familiar with Joe Kennedy and his kind
Speaker 4: of time in the UK. Honestly, Get the kickstory is
Speaker 4: one that I wish I could have spent more time
Speaker 4: on because it was so interesting to me. It was Again,
Speaker 4: if for those listeners go back and listen to Dana's episode,
Speaker 4: it's so good. It's about you know, kind of forbidden
Speaker 4: love and tragedy and you know her her parents did
Speaker 4: not want her to marry someone from the British aristocracy
Speaker 4: because of religious reasons and all sorts of things. It's fascinating.
Speaker 4: So I learned a lot there, certainly, And I also learned.
Speaker 2: A good bit. We haven't touched on this yet, but
Speaker 2: that JFK.
Speaker 4: Junior and Diana actually met in New York in a
Speaker 4: secret meeting that was not reported on at the time,
Speaker 4: and that again, is so interesting that they were able
Speaker 4: to keep that out of the tabloids, because again, they
Speaker 4: were two of the very most famous people in the world.
Speaker 4: And you know, he had asked her to be on
Speaker 4: the CU of his magazine and she very kindly said no.
Speaker 2: But they had a very lovely tea at the Carlisle Hotel.
Speaker 3: That's lovely. I wish I could have seen that meeting.
Speaker 3: I wish, you know, we'll have to settle for fiction,
Speaker 3: but that's fascinating to imagine. Caroline. Thank you so much
Speaker 3: for your time and for this fascinating book. The book
Speaker 3: is The Kennedy's and the Windsors. It's available for pre order.
Speaker 3: It comes out next Tuesday. If you're interested in both
Speaker 3: of these families, you absolutely should pick it up. Caroline,
Speaker 3: is there anywhere on social media that you want to
Speaker 3: direct the listeners to?
Speaker 4: Sure, maybe just Caroline Holliman dot com. Then it gets
Speaker 4: all the links and all the socials are there.
Speaker 3: Fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us. Noble Blood
Speaker 3: is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from
Speaker 3: Aaron Manky. Noble Blood is hosted by me Dana Schwartz.
Speaker 3: Writers for Noble Blood are hands Na Johnston, Hannah Zwick,
Speaker 3: Paul Jaffey, Natasha Laski, and me Danish Swartz. The show
Speaker 3: is edited and produced by Jesse Funk and Nomes Griffin,
Speaker 3: with supervising producerrima Ill Kali and executive producers Aaron Manke,
Speaker 3: Trevor Young, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
Speaker 3: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
Speaker 3: to your favorite shows.