WEBVTT - When the Kennedeys met the Windsors (with Caroline Hallemann) 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:04.640 Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:11.640 and Mild from Aaron Mankey listener Discretion advised. Welcome to 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:14.720 a very special episode of Noble Blood. I'm Danish Wartz 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:18.119 and I'm joined by Caroline Halliman, who's the digital director 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:20.520 of Town and Country and the author of the new 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:24.479 book The Kennedy's and the Windsors, which is out next week, 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:28.400 available for pre order now. It is a fascinating book, 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.400 super readable, super fun, like the best sort of historical 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:37.879 gossip about these two families that are a global obsession. Caroline, 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:39.680 thank you so much for coming on the podcast. 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:42.120 Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:42.960 to talk to you today. 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:47.400 My first question is what drew you to a book 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.200 focused on these two families in particular? 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:55.520 Sure, so I am as the digital director at Town 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:56.080 and Country. 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:58.760 I have covered both of these families for just. 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:03.240 About ten years now, so I came into writing this 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.480 book with kind of a deep background on both of them. 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:08.319 But what really kind of. 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:11.880 Sparked the idea to write a book was when Prince 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:15.040 William announced that he was bringing his Earthshot Prize, which 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:21.399 is his big environmental initiative to Boston, and that was 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:23.280 in the second year of the prize, and he talked 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:27.560 a lot about how President Kennedy's Moonshot and his kind 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:29.679 of ambition to go to the Moon and his declaration 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.640 that we would do that within ten years was really 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:37.560 an inspiration and a driving force for William's big project. 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:40.360 And I just started thinking about that, and I was like, 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:44.000 that's so interesting because it was really Prince William kind 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.800 of leaning on the Kennedy iconography and the Kennedy mythology 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:50.160 and kind of like the language of the Kennedys to 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:53.200 launch his big project on a global scale, to bring 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:54.080 that to America. 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:56.440 And I was like, that is. 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:59.240 Just it just felt like a reversal of the whole, 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:01.800 like the Kennedy so the closest thing that America has. 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:02.600 To the royal family. 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:05.960 And so I actually covered that visit to Boston for 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:09.480 Town and Country, and I just kept thinking about that, 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:11.640 and I kept thinking about the different connections between the 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:15.200 two families. And the following week, Prince Harry had another 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:17.400 event with another branch. 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:17.959 Of the Kennedy family. 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:20.760 He received the Ripple of Hope Award, and so I 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:22.640 just kept thinking about it, and I kept thinking about 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:25.799 Joe Kennedy in the UK prior to World War Two, 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.600 and I kept thinking about, like, you know, the nineteen 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.720 sixty one meeting at Buckingham Palace, which has been fictionalized 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:33.240 in the Crown and all of these things, and I 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:35.359 was like, there must be a book about this, and 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:37.320 so I was, you know, I was looking it up. 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:39.600 I was trying to find something, and there wasn't one. 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:42.440 And so then I was like, well, maybe maybe I 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:45.680 should try and write something. And I pitched it to 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:47.640 my agent. I had been kind of working on a 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:50.800 separate idea and she was like, that's it, Like, that's 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:52.960 the book. You should start on that. And so that's 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:54.600 kind of the origin story. 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:59.560 I love that infamous visit that you mentioned that was 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.239 depicted in The Crown, when Jackie Kennedy and JFK visited 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:07.920 Queen Elizabeth and her husband Philip. As you mentioned, it 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:09.800 was depicted in The Crown, but you also write about 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:13.280 it very beautifully in the book. Can you explain the 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:15.400 context of that visit and what happened? 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:20.040 Sure, So the nineteen sixty one visit, it came after 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:23.880 President Kennedy was in Vienna, which was kind of like 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:26.960 a key meeting with Khrushchev about the Cold War, and 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:29.520 they talked about the state of Germany, they talked about 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:32.679 the state of Laos. It was a big meeting for him, 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:37.320 and they knew that he wanted to debrief with the 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:40.240 UK Prime Minister afterwards, but he didn't want to make 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:44.440 kind of other allies in NATO mad about essentially the 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:48.840 US UK special relationship. So they wanted to get to 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:53.560 the UK. And actually his god daughter was being baptized. 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:59.200 So Jackie Kennedy's sister Lee Radswell's daughter Tina had been premature, 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:01.960 it had been a difficult pregnancy, and this was a 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:04.080 good enough reason for them to get over to the 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:07.800 UK after Vienna that President Kennedy's goddaughter was going to 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.680 be baptized, and so that's a whole lot of context 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:12.600 for why they were there. But while they were there, 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:15.640 Queen Elizabeth was like, of course, please invite them to dinner, 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:18.240 you know, like, let's make this happen. And so there 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:20.279 was a little bit of back and forth about whether 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:23.120 the Radzawells would be invited because they had been divorced, 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:25.000 and there was just all of this back and forth. 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.600 But as we know, divorce in the royal family at 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:28.000 this time. 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:32.200 Big no now exactly exactly, but eventually President Kennedy and 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:35.120 Jackie they get to Buckingham Palace for this dinner. And 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:39.000 what the Crown gets right is that Jackie was not 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:43.960 exactly impressed with Buckingham Palace. She thought that, you know, 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:46.000 she thought that Prince Philip and she thought that the 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.279 Queen were nice enough. But we have several accounts of 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:51.880 her saying, you know that she was a little bit disappointed. 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:54.799 She was disappointed with the food, she was disappointed with 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:58.800 with the state of Buckingham Palace, and she was disappointed 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:01.080 with what the Queen chose to do where. And I 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:04.320 think that that little colonel has just like expanded and expanded, 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.800 expanded beyond in the kind of telephone of history and 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.800 has led to this kind of idea that the two 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:14.680 women had this intense rivalry or something like that, and 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:17.720 that's not true. And when you think about it, I mean, 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:21.480 they had a lot in common. They were very different, 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:24.159 but at the same time, they were both young mothers. 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:28.480 They were both two women, you know, under enormous scrutiny. 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.880 In the public eye. And what I like to. 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:34.839 Point to is that they were both passionate equestrians. Like, 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:37.719 if you know anything about these two women and their hobbies, 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:40.720 you know that they love horses. So even though that 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:44.480 first meeting together was kind of you know, as I say, 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.880 Jackie was less than impressed, she returned. 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:49.800 The following year and had lunch at bucking And Palace. 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:53.080 Again that is depicted in the Crown and is fictionalized. 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:55.680 Certainly, what we know happened is. 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:58.240 That they talked about horses in that second meeting, and 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:03.200 that's what they really connect it on. And you know, 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:05.880 I just love that bit of history. I think of 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.920 them both as kind of family matriarchs, but also horse girls. 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.280 They are both horse girls, and both of them I 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:17.719 often think about how lonely and isolating it is to 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:21.320 be famous. Feels almost like a diminishing word for what 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:25.480 the Queen or what Jackie is like so constantly scrutinized, 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:29.080 and there are so few people who understand what that's like. 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:32.800 And even if these two women weren't quite friends, there 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:35.320 was probably an understanding between them. 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:38.159 Absolutely. I think that hits the nail right on the head. 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:44.320 They have singular experiences that very few other people can understand, 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:48.200 and you know, they occupied different roles, but I think 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.080 there was commonality there for sure. 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:55.760 Do we know how the Queen felt about Jackie? The 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:58.880 Crown depicted her as a little envious that Jackie was 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:03.039 more beautiful, glamorous, this French speaking woman. Was that a 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:04.320 fictional invention? 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:09.640 I think yes, it was fictionalized, that is true, you know. 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:13.840 But I would say that certainly the Royal family they 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:18.720 looked to the Kennedys for kind of like an injection 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:22.600 of vitality. They saw how successful that was, and the 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:24.280 royal family definitely. 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:26.239 Took inspiration from that in the years to come. 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:28.960 And frankly, I think they could do that again, honestly 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:30.040 kind of in present day. 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:34.160 Yes, I think you're absolutely right. What I also find 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:39.160 interesting that you mentioned before is this symbiotic relationship between 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:42.360 the two of them. How did the Kennedys benefit from 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:47.080 their royal associations, both with the idea of Camelot and 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:49.840 by associating themselves with the Windsors. 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:53.080 Sure, I think to answer that question you have to 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:56.560 go back to Joe Kennedy, who was President Kennedy's father. 0:07:56.760 --> 0:08:00.320 He was the ambassador to the UK prior to World 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:03.120 War Two. When he started in that position when he 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:05.680 brought his family over to the UK, he saw it 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.040 as a real opportunity to kind of push them up 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:11.960 the social ladder, and to that effect, you know, Rose Kennedy, 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:16.040 his wife, JFK's mother, really saw kind of their time 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.840 in the UK as kind of the first step toward 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:23.080 JFK's presidency. So while they were there, they took every 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.640 opportunity to socialize with royals and with aristocrats, and for 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:28.040 their children too as well. 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.520 And I know you did an episode I can't. 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:31.720 Remember if it was earlier this year or at the 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:35.400 end of last year, about Kick, who is fascinating. 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:37.280 I was about to bring up for audience members who 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:41.600 don't remember. Kick Kennedy was the sister of JFK who 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:45.240 married into British nobility, and she died very tragically young. 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:50.080 Yes, but during their time in the UK, you know 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:53.480 that was seen as a real benefit of this position, 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:57.359 is that Joe could have his children make these connections 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:01.120 with people, and you know, those were some of JFK's 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:03.520 very close associates during his presidency as well. 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:05.560 I feel like that's a great example. 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.280 And then you kind of look toward the myth making 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:11.360 of Jackie. After President Kennedy's death and the idea of 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:15.920 Camelot for listeners who are unfamiliar. In the handful of 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:21.200 days after President Kennedy's assassination, Jackie gave an interview for 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:24.280 Life magazine in which she kind of crafted the myth 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:29.160 of Camelot. She spoke about how she and JFK had 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:33.960 listened to records the famous Broadway musical Camelot, how that 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.559 was one of his favorites, and she kind of made 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.080 a comparison blinking the Kennedy administration and their family to 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:43.319 the myth of King Arthur and his knights in Camelot, 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.559 and that it was a time of you know, prosperity 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:49.360 and goodness and you know, celebration of the arts and all. 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:49.800 Of those things. 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:53.520 And so it is a link that she crafted between 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:58.360 royalty and the Kennedy family, and the Kennedy's had been 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:00.920 called kind of the closest thing that America has to 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:03.920 the royal family during the Kennedy administration. That didn't start 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:08.720 with this, but it certainly has had a long lasting 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:12.400 impact on how this family is viewed in American popular culture. 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:17.319 And so it's that idea of the Kennedys as royalty 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:19.880 as the closest thing America has to royalty. It has 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.760 really perpetuated, and I think that stems from Jackie. And 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:26.839 she didn't really give interviews after that, which makes that 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:30.960 interview all the more important. It really solidified what she 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:34.680 wanted JFK's legacy to be, and then she kind of 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:36.880 left it at that and she kind of disappeared, which 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:39.679 I find fat. I mean, she didn't disappear, but from 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:42.600 giving interviews and sharing her perspective. She never wrote a 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:46.000 memoir or anything like that, and I think I think 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:47.439 that link was important to her. 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:51.000 One thing I find really compelling about your book is 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:55.160 the parallels you draw between generations. I think that the 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:59.480 comparison between Jackie Oh and Queen Elizabeth makes sense. I 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:03.200 think people also sometimes associate her with Princess Diana, just 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:07.160 as this young figure who, as you said, injected some 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:10.920 vitality into the families you married into. But you and 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:14.040 the book draw a link between JFK Junior and Diana, 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:17.320 which makes a lot of sense as two very glamorous 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:20.040 figures who died young. Can you talk a little bit 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:22.080 about that comparison. 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:25.120 Yeah, sure, I mean Diana is someone who I think 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:29.079 you could compare it to many people in the Kennedy family. 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:35.319 I think she's a fascinating figure. But during the nineteen nineties, 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:40.360 there were, you know, few people as famous as Princess 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:45.160 Diana and JFK. Junior, and I think two people who 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:51.000 were courted by the media intensely, and I think how 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:53.520 they handled it is interesting. I think a lot of 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:56.760 people make a comparison between Princess Diana and Carolyn Besseid Kennedy, 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:59.760 and absolutely there's one to make there, Yeah, but I 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:05.280 think think Carolyn was not as adept at kind of 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:06.640 handling the media. 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.320 She just kind of she didn't have a sense of 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:10.120 how she. 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:12.720 Could work with them or make it work for her 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:18.880 in any way, which Diana was kind of exactly exactly. 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.120 And I would say John F. Kennedy Junior was the 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:24.680 same way. He didn't let it bother him as much 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:27.360 because well, first of all, it's all he'd known his 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.920 whole life. That is a differentiator between these two people, 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.120 but he certainly knew how to use it to his advantage. 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.240 I don't think he was upset to be on the 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:38.880 cover of People magazine, you know, sexiest man alive like 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:40.280 that did not bother him. 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:43.280 I don't know who it would bother. 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:46.360 But so I do think that that. 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:50.560 I think that that is the interesting comparison between them 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:53.880 is kind of is in the sense of the media, certainly. 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:58.520 In terms of the tragedy of these two families. How 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:03.400 do you think each fail family handled their respective tragedies 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:08.680 in individually. Obviously these are different systems in place, but 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:11.360 the royal family was sort of stemied in their ability 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:13.200 to respond to the death of Diana. 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.120 Yeah, I mean, I think certainly. 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:21.079 I mean that also was a comparison between these two 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:24.000 people is the way they were grieved by the public 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:28.040 and the kind of almost cathartic outpouring of grief by 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:30.559 people who didn't know them, the parasocial relationship that people 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:34.599 had between themselves and Princess Diana and themselves and John F. 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:35.480 Kennedy Junior. 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:40.400 In both cases, people kind of created memorials to them outside. 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:42.600 There was weeping in the streets in both cases, which 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.640 is just difficult to kind of imagine that, but that's 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:49.800 what happened, and the parallel of public grief for both 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:53.680 of them was one of the first things that came 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:58.240 to mind. And obviously with Princess Diana, and her sons 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:00.720 kind of walking behind her coffin. 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:02.680 And then for. 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:06.800 Every time there is a death in the Kennedy family, 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:12.640 it is public. Even for a death like Tatianis Shlasburg recently, 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:16.520 you know, there were photographs of the family leaving the 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:20.440 funeral that were published in a variety of publications. There 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:23.440 is and she was not a very public facing person. 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.320 That is one of the parallels between these two families 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:30.080 that illustrates how challenging it is to be in the 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:34.120 public eye. There are so many benefits to being as 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:37.640 famous as these two families are. That is undeniable, but 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:41.200 there are because so much is expected of them. There's 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:43.920 an expectation for them to grieve in public, and that's 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.440 just not something that is expected of very many people. 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:56.560 How did celebrity culture and sort of the paparazzi culture 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:01.040 affect both families in the nineties and early two thousands. 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:05.600 Sure, I think we think about paparazzi and we think 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:09.120 about celebrity culture today and we think, wow, it's really obtrusive. 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:11.240 These people are being photographed all the time. 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:13.800 All of that take it back to the nineties and 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:18.120 amplify it to the nth degree. It was different back then, 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:23.040 and Diana is the perfect example. Yes, she manipulated and 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:26.560 had a relationship with the press. She was able to 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:29.360 get what she wanted from them in some cases, but 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.760 certainly they also pursued her. That is absolutely true. And 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:35.240 the same was the case for Carolyn in the nineties. 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:38.040 They would not leave them alone. There was no way 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.720 for them to kind of escape interest. In the modern day, 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:45.400 I think there is. It's not a parallel, but it's 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:48.120 it's interesting to think about the fact that everyone has 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:50.320 a cell phone. That is a way that you cannot 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.920 escape that in the modern day. But you know, I 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:59.400 think recently about Tom holland AND's and Deaya. They got married, 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:03.800 nobody seen pictures, nobody knows about it. That is possible. Now, 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:07.240 that wasn't really possible in the same way. So yeah, 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:08.000 it's just different. 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.560 We'll find out how possible it is if we get 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:13.040 secret pictures of Taylor Swift. 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:15.080 Yes, exactly, exactly. 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.240 That's going to be the real test. So the meeting 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:21.240 between the Kennedy's and the Windsors in nineteen sixty one 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:25.480 is very famous, But are there any other times that 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.400 these families have come together that you find notable? 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:33.480 Sure this is it's not exactly a meeting necessarily, But 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.560 one of my favorite parts of the book is is 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:40.680 Jackie covering Queen Elizabeth's coronation as a journalist. Prior to 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.520 Jackie marrying JFK, she worked as a journalist at the 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:47.480 Washington Times Herald in DC, and she, you know, was 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:52.160 sent to cover the coronation for her Inquiring Camera Girl column, 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:54.040 which was kind of a man on the street column. 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:56.440 And so she covered the. 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:00.320 Ship over which was which she dubbed kind of the 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:05.159 Coronation crossing, and then she and she spoke with with 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:09.040 numerous people on the ground. She reported, you know, from 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:12.280 the ground about all of the festivities leading leading up 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:14.800 to the coronation. She went to several kind of legendary 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:18.760 parties after the coronation, and I this is kind of 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:22.640 is my favorite chapter because I feel like it offers 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.840 rare insight into what Jackie was like before she was famous, 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:29.320 which I think is really interesting. It's a great parallel 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:31.920 between her and Queen Elizabeth because it's kind of these 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:35.960 two young women on the brink of exceptional lives, kind 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:40.879 of right on the edge of something. And you know, 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:46.280 Jackie is funny and she has these doodles that she drew, 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:50.720 and she's just just you know, I just I love 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.800 it because, like I said, you know, she was so 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:58.199 public and polished during the Kennedy administration, and then she 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:00.520 gave these kind of final interviews then you don't hear 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:03.399 from her again, and so it's just a really insightful 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.280 look at who she was at her core as a 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:06.800 young woman. 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:11.600 I love that. What would you say are the things 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:15.240 that each family has learned from each other? What lessons 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:16.919 have they taken from the other side. 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:18.360 That's a great question. 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:21.879 The kind of youth and vitality piece of it, I 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:26.400 think is what the Royals had learned from the Kennedys, 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:28.119 and they looked to them and that was a piece 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:32.840 of kind of what they saw as helpful and the 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:35.600 pr of it all. I think they saw that and 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.240 they were like, Okay, you know, that is the way 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:38.439 to go. 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:39.440 I think both of. 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:42.879 These families, their histories and their perceptions have been so 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:47.959 shaped by television, and I think that the Kennedy presidency 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:50.919 and the Kennedy administration. You know, he won the debate 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:55.520 because of TV. Jackie gave her kind of television tour 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:57.800 of the White House, and you kind of see television 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:01.480 as starting to have importance with with the coronation of 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:03.720 Queen Elizabeth and kind of with other events. 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:05.760 So I think that is so interesting. 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:08.480 Their perception of how they are seen, I think is 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.040 so key, and I think that's you know, the royals 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.520 always knew that, but I think that was like one 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:17.160 lesson they learned from the Kennedys. What the Kennedys took 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:22.760 from the royal family, that's interesting. I think, again, not 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:25.080 to keep talking about this, but the kind of you know, 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:30.160 never complain, never explain, attitude of you know, not speaking 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:33.760 to the press unless it's like absolutely necessary. You saw 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:36.560 that with Jackie, You saw that with Caroline Kennedy, and 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.880 I think you see that today. You know the reason 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:44.679 why her speaking out against her cousin R. F. Kennedy Junior, 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:49.200 prior to him being appointed to the Trump Cabinet, why 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.600 that had so much impact is because she doesn't speak 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:54.280 to the press. I think it had much more impact 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:56.160 because of the rarity of it all. 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:01.639 Yes, I think that that's completely correct. I think people 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:06.040 understand the power of withholding now, especially in an era 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:08.359 when as you said, everyone has a cell phone. It 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:11.160 feels like there's so much information at any given time, 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:17.000 there is power in saying less absolutely what future I mean, obviously, 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:19.280 these families are in very different positions, given that the 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:23.600 Windsors are literally monarchs. What future do you sort of 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:25.600 predict for each family? 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:28.280 Now, gosh, that's a good question. 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:31.800 If you had asked me even two years about about 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:34.000 the Kennedy's, I would have had a very different answer. 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:37.560 Yeah, And as has something happened? Is something in the 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:38.439 news or something? 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.760 I mean, I think that R. F. Kennedy, Robert F. 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:46.680 Kennedy Junior, being in the Trump administration has set them 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:48.160 on an interesting path. 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:49.200 He's been in the public eye. 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:51.480 People ask me, you know, why do people care about 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:54.520 the Kennedys still, And I'm like, well, I think there's 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:56.719 all this history, and I think that they are so 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:01.320 tied to the core of America and history given kind 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:03.400 of the violent death of JFK. 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:07.080 That's one reason. But now it's like Robert F. 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:10.240 Kennedy Junior is in the news constantly right now, he 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:12.359 is having an impact that people should be aware of, 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:15.440 people should be paying attention to that. Also, you know, 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:18.320 Jack Slosberg is running for Congress. He is kind of 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.880 the next generation of the Kennedys, and I don't see 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:24.560 him going away regardless of what the outcome of that 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:28.840 race is, And so they are back in the cultural narrative. 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:33.000 So I think watching those two people in particular, I 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:35.959 think will be interesting to see the future of what 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:38.640 that family means to American culture. 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:40.960 There's also going to be a whole new show. 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:44.960 About them on Netflix starring Michael Fassbender. And I think 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:50.040 popular culture has kept them in the public, the forefront 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:53.400 of the public mind, both families, certainly, but I think 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:57.239 that will continue to keep them kind of in the 0:21:57.280 --> 0:21:59.960