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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds and a new poll from Gallops as

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Speaker 1: Americans feel worse off financially than at any point in

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Speaker 1: the last twenty five years. We have such a great

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Speaker 1: show for you today. To the Contrary Zone, Charlie Sykes

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Speaker 1: stops by to talk about Donald Trump using his political

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Speaker 1: capital for the stupidest thing possible. Ben will talk to

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Speaker 1: The New York Times his own Jodi Kant about her

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Speaker 1: new book, How to Start Discovering Your Life's Work. But

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Speaker 1: first the news, Milly.

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Speaker 2: One of the funniest things if you listen to the discourse,

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Speaker 2: especially on the right, you would think the Democrats rule

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Speaker 2: over three, maybe even four branches of the government with

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Speaker 2: an iron fist that just whips every one into shape,

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Speaker 2: when really it is NonStop GOP in fighting that rules

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Speaker 2: over our bodies a government.

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Speaker 1: I want to take a moment here to appreciate how

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Speaker 1: the GOP is destroying each other. Okay, so here's what's

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Speaker 1: going on. I don't know if any of you remember

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Speaker 1: this from Season one of GOP Dysfunction, but we are

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the longest shutdown. We're seventy two

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Speaker 1: days into a Homeland security funding shutdown. Okay, seventy two days.

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Speaker 1: There is no historical precedent for this. Homeland is shut down.

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Speaker 1: The TSA who basically stopped going to work because they

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Speaker 1: stopped getting paid. And by the way, they were right

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Speaker 1: to do that, because there's no reason that they should

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Speaker 1: be going to work, especially these people are not making money.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, I just want to play out

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Speaker 1: every shutdown. You know who always fucking gets paid? Tell me,

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Speaker 1: I bet you can guess, Jesse.

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Speaker 2: Is it the TSA and the air traffic controllers?

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Speaker 1: No, honey, it's members of Congress and senators. Those guys

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Speaker 1: never miss a paycheck. But airplane controllers TSA workers, those

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Speaker 1: guys get screwed. So anyway, shut downs huge lines. Trump

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Speaker 1: turns out he could have always paid those people, moved

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Speaker 1: some money around. It is paying them now. There are

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Speaker 1: a lot of other people who are not being paid

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Speaker 1: now ice of course they're being paid because this is

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Speaker 1: the Trump administration. But and you know, two hundred and

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Speaker 1: twenty million dollars for Christy Noom to do horseback riding videos.

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Speaker 1: But here we are, We've got Congress fighting with itself.

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Speaker 1: We have Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House, who

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Speaker 1: basically serves as Donald Trump's mini may and John Thune,

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Speaker 1: who is a guy who, again not my kind of politics,

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Speaker 1: but has pretty much been a person who has worked

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Speaker 1: really hard to get where he is in the Senate,

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Speaker 1: I mean, whatever that's worth, and now has this job

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Speaker 1: where he basically babysits MAGA and they are just at

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Speaker 1: each other's throats about this. Student is unlikely to say publicly,

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Speaker 1: but they are very frustrated. Senate Republicans are super mad

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Speaker 1: at Johnson's inability to pass a DHS appropriation spell. Okay,

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Speaker 1: here's the deal. The Senate puts together a bill. Johnson

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Speaker 1: so bad at being Speaker of the House. You have

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Speaker 1: to realize, like this person was like number you know,

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Speaker 1: number nine and leadership, I mean, and so he gets

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Speaker 1: his job because Donald Trump wants him to have it,

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Speaker 1: but he doesn't know how to do it. And so

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Speaker 1: this is what happens. He can't get it past. And

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Speaker 1: the reason he can't get it passed is not because

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Speaker 1: of Democrats, but it's because he can't get the votes

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Speaker 1: in his own fucking party. And this I feel like,

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Speaker 1: it's such a great metaphor for trump Ism. Right, you

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Speaker 1: have all Republicans and they can't legislate themselves out of

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Speaker 1: a fucking paperbag. Right, And I'm going to read something

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Speaker 1: from Axios. These people woke Axios. You will remember work Accios,

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Speaker 1: which is so woke, has saved the markets for Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: Like every Sunday for the last year.

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Speaker 2: Each day, what I read, what's so clearly sponsored content

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Speaker 2: on it. I just feel my left wingness going to

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Speaker 2: the right every.

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Speaker 1: Day, sponsored by Anthropic and Facebook.

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Speaker 2: It really is all yeah.

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Speaker 1: But I'm just gonna read this to you. The bottom line,

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Speaker 1: both men are Republicans, both men are on leadership, and

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Speaker 1: both men are staking out public positions. It could make

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Speaker 1: a private deal harder to reach. This is the peak

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Speaker 1: of dysfunctional moronics. You got to hand it to Republicans.

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Speaker 1: I was worried that we might cruise into a midterm

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Speaker 1: with two dollars gas and Republicans passing legislation. But two

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Speaker 1: we are cruising into it with four dollars gas and

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Speaker 1: Republicans just completely committing subuku. Once again, let's.

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Speaker 2: Talk about that four dollars gas. So, speaking of Axios,

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Speaker 2: I think actually they had a very funny thing today.

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Speaker 2: I put a picture in for UC you could laugh

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Speaker 2: with me. So as we know, if Trump's mouth is moving,

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Speaker 2: he's lying. But it's especially on the straight of horror moves.

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Speaker 2: If his mouth is moving, he is fucking lying. So

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Speaker 2: the headlines read this, Trump claims Iran told us it

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Speaker 2: wants straight of her moves open asap, and then Iran

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Speaker 2: may have oil options to drag out this clusing of

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Speaker 2: a straight or four moves back to back headlines.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about this for a second

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Speaker 1: because it's so so so. It is yet again so stupid.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to just explain this in the stupidest possible way.

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Speaker 1: Straits of hermus open. Everyone says, don't go to war

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Speaker 1: with Iran. The Iranians will close the straight. It will

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Speaker 1: make everything more expensive and screw up the economy. Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump says, well, Nan Yau really wants me to go

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Speaker 1: to war with Iron, and so let's do it, okay,

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Speaker 1: And probably so the Saudis wanted this. We think the

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Speaker 1: Saudis may have wanted this as well. Two of the

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Speaker 1: really the smartest political actors with no access to grind themselves.

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Speaker 1: So Donald Trump bombs Iran. Iran's like, fuck you all,

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Speaker 1: close the straights now, Donald Trump. No, here's what turns.

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Speaker 1: It turns out that a country with eighty to ninety

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Speaker 1: million people that are filled with religious extremists that are

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Speaker 1: hardened against the suffering of their own people, those people

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Speaker 1: are not going to be quick to make a deal.

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Speaker 1: So you have Donald Trump desperate to get gas prices

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Speaker 1: down in order to save himself for the midterms, even

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Speaker 1: though little Ronnie d Ronnie D is in Florida trying

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Speaker 1: to redistrict Donald Trump another four seats. Here's the story

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Speaker 1: about this redistricting. It all works great if Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: performs at the same numbers that he did in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four. But you know what.

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Speaker 2: Happens, not that, not that, Somiley, we have a new

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Speaker 2: Mexico will pay for the wall. The taxpayers were paying

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Speaker 2: for the fucked and ballroom. That's right, Rand Paul ted

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Speaker 2: Kruzler introducing some legislation. You and I build the ballroom. Baby.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really excited because I'm excited because it's so stupid,

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Speaker 1: and also because it's very stupid. So here's the deal.

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Speaker 1: This weekend, you and I there was the White House Correspondence.

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Speaker 1: There was the White House Correspondence Party. It was a

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Speaker 1: d I was not there, but I went a little

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Speaker 1: bit earlier to see some of the stuff that was happening,

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Speaker 1: and I left before the guy ran in. But I

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Speaker 1: just want to say a couple of things about that.

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Speaker 1: The guy who came in was able to get through

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Speaker 1: some security, but still not able to get down to

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Speaker 1: the same floor that everybody was on, nor was he

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Speaker 1: able to get anywhere close. But the point is Trump

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Speaker 1: has decided that this is a reason why he needs

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Speaker 1: a ballroom. This event would never have been held in

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Speaker 1: a ballroom because it was the Press Association and the

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Speaker 1: White House Press Association. Who's not going to be allowed

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Speaker 1: to have events in Trump's ballroom or in the White

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Speaker 1: House ballroom if Trump is not president. So it's just

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Speaker 1: a completely nonsensical It's like bombing Ron because you think

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Speaker 1: they're going to have nukes even though you said they

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Speaker 1: didn't have nukes. It's that level of making no sense.

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Speaker 2: Stu James Comy's daughter, Maureen Comy was fired for like

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Speaker 2: one of the stupid stacks of that's right when Trump

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Speaker 2: got elected this last time, and turns out she's winning

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Speaker 2: her a lawsuit because it was really stupidly and hastily done.

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Speaker 1: I think she's going to be able to sue the administration.

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Speaker 1: So this is sort of the first step in this,

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Speaker 1: because there was no justification for how she was fired.

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Speaker 1: I want to point out I am no fan of

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Speaker 1: James cole me too tall, bad writer, but and so boring.

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Speaker 1: You've never known anyone more boring in your life. But

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Speaker 1: the point of this is not that. The point is

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Speaker 1: that there is no executive power to fire people because

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Speaker 1: their last name is call me.

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Speaker 3: But there should be.

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Speaker 1: No There should be because we find them annoying. But

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Speaker 1: I don't find Mareene annoying.

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Speaker 3: Just her dad.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, I'm very much kidding.

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Speaker 1: Charlie Sykes is the author of the Newsletter to the

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Speaker 1: Contrary and the book How the Right Lost Its Mind.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about Trump's obsessions today, and I think, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And you had a very smart point, of course before

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Speaker 1: we started record, and which was that Donald Trump has

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Speaker 1: two big obsessions. I would love you to tell us

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Speaker 1: what you think they are.

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Speaker 3: So I thought they were on display this week, and

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Speaker 3: keeping in mind that we are still at war with

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Speaker 3: Iran and Donald Trump clearly does not want to talk

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Speaker 3: about the war where they ran. He wants to change

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Speaker 3: the subject. So I think we found out yesterday that

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump is almost as obsessed with Jimmy Kimmel as

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Speaker 3: he is with his bunker ballroom. And I think that

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Speaker 3: you know that that tells you a lot about Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump's mindset. You know, on the one hand, he is

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Speaker 3: into this, He's got this fetish for authoritarian aesthetics. On

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Speaker 3: the other hand, he remains this thin skinned little boy,

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Speaker 3: actually hates being laughed at and actually fears being laughed

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Speaker 3: at more than just about anything else, which is why

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Speaker 3: he and Millennia almost immediately pivoted to we are just outraged.

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Speaker 3: We are victims of Jimmy Kimmel telling a joke about us.

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Speaker 1: Again, yes they are. By the way, I have to

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Speaker 1: tell you the fact that this crew is obsessed with

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Speaker 1: they're just basically obsessed with people talking about them, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're offended by jokes, they're offended by this,

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Speaker 1: by by that. But like you know, even with the

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Speaker 1: with the attempt this weekend, you had Carolyn Levitt saying, well,

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Speaker 1: this is all about rhetoric, This is all about people

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Speaker 1: talking about Trump in negative ways. Trump is all he

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Speaker 1: has ever done has is court attention. Am I wrong?

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Speaker 3: Well, well, no, he obviously is obsessed with being being

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Speaker 3: paid attention to it in a certain way. I mean,

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Speaker 3: he's still deep inside this guy. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: he's compares himself to Jesus. You know, he wants to

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Speaker 3: be the you know, the world bestriding colossus. But he's

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Speaker 3: still this fat little boy who is afraid that people

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Speaker 3: are snickering about him. And that's part of the dilemma

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Speaker 3: that we have here. Look on this issue of violent rhetoric,

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Speaker 3: and you know, we could spend the whole time talk

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Speaker 3: about this, but it is. It is genuinely rich hearing

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump and and his and his acolytes complain about

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Speaker 3: criticism as violent rhetoric. Here's a man who just like,

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Speaker 3: just was it last month when Robert Muller dies and

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Speaker 3: I'm glad he's dead, who's called for the death penalty

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Speaker 3: for his critics, who's talked about, you know, hanging you know,

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Speaker 3: members of Congress who made videos. That this man has

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Speaker 3: done more to stir up this fever of violence than

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Speaker 3: any political figure of his stature in American history. I mean,

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Speaker 3: there's been violent rhetic. Now, yeah, I wanted to make

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Speaker 3: it clear there are people out there who do engage

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Speaker 3: in some serious violent rhetoric, and I think they need

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Speaker 3: to be called out on all of that. But what

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump wants to do, what the Trump is wanted

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Speaker 3: to do, is they want to conflate political criticism and

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Speaker 3: political description of what and who he is with violent rhetoric.

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Speaker 3: And I think that this is where we need to

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Speaker 3: really make this distinction the people we're talking about. We

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Speaker 3: need to have capitalist blood, you know, running in the streets,

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Speaker 3: where people celebrating assassinations like one guy up in northern Wisconsin.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that needs to be called out. But when

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Speaker 3: you say that Donald Trump is eroding democratic norms and

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Speaker 3: is a fascist, I'm sorry, that is a description, and

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Speaker 3: this is not the moment to shut up about that, right.

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Speaker 1: And I would also add that they're also conflating just reporting, right,

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Speaker 1: like how dare you say that Donald Trump doesn't need

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Speaker 1: a ballroom or that he had said it was going

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Speaker 1: to be paid for by private companies and that there's correct,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's kleptocrscy like that sort of thing is

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Speaker 1: also not violent rhetoric. That is just accurate reporting. But

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Speaker 1: I also I want to add because I think this

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Speaker 1: is a like, I really think that's such a good

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Speaker 1: point that there's like that. It's it is clearly an

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Speaker 1: on purpose way that they're conflating these two things. But

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Speaker 1: I want to add something two other things. One is

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Speaker 1: that this all comes on the heels of Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: fighting with the pulpe Remember that from the last season.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, from the from the from the last season

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Speaker 3: of that. Well, that fight, that is, that fight is

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Speaker 3: not over, and I continue to be absolutely fascinated by

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Speaker 3: the fact that he that he picked that particular fight.

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Speaker 3: But you know, to your point about I mean, could

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Speaker 3: we just call out the the utter hypocrisy of Donald Trump,

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Speaker 3: who claims that he was the free speech president. Remember

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Speaker 3: how free speech was a big thing. Do you remember

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Speaker 3: when the entire rite was devoted to fighting against cancel culture.

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Speaker 3: They get into power, and what do they do? They

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Speaker 3: have their own cancel culture. And he has gone into

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Speaker 3: overdrive in trying to shut up critics, telling people not

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Speaker 3: to say various things, using the cudgels of government like

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Speaker 3: Brendan Carr to go after folks. I mean the fact

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Speaker 3: that they want well that okay, the Jimmy Kimmel thing,

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Speaker 3: I'm slightly obsessed with because I do think that what

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Speaker 3: happened last year was a turning point. And I think

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Speaker 3: you and I talked about that when they when they

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Speaker 3: it looked like they canceled him when he was suspended,

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Speaker 3: and then there was this ground swell of support for

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Speaker 3: Jimmy Kimmel. Jimmy Kimmel came back on stronger than ever.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm impressed with this guy. You know, he's

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Speaker 3: absolutely fearless. And the fact that they're they right now,

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Speaker 3: they're they're going back to trying to get rid of him,

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Speaker 3: Milania Trump saying he should be fired, he should be

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Speaker 3: taken off. I'm mean, I'm sure that inner Slovenian education.

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Speaker 3: They didn't tell her about the American First Amendment anything.

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Speaker 3: But it is that while shut up culture that they're

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Speaker 3: that they're using you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I want to add something is which is

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Speaker 1: when we're watching that press conference. There was a press

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Speaker 1: conference yesterday. I'm looking to the left of Cash Patau

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Speaker 1: and I see justice. Jeanine Piro, a Fox News host Okay,

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Speaker 1: known for pretty violent rhetoric, for saying things that are

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Speaker 1: pretty beyond the pale.

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Speaker 3: Yes, you called her Justice Janine Perote. That was a

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Speaker 3: Freudian slip because people, it can't it can't get any worse. Okay,

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Speaker 3: So if Democrats failed to win the Senate, you know,

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Speaker 3: I don't know, Maybe nothing is too absurd. Look, the

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Speaker 3: fact that Cash Pttel is the FBI director and Pete

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Speaker 3: Hegseeth is the Secretary of Defense tells you there is

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Speaker 3: nothing that is too absurd. I mean, do you remember

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Speaker 3: in a previous life when Matt Gates was going to

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Speaker 3: be the Attorney general. So when we joke about Justice

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Speaker 3: Janine Pero, it's not really it's not really a joke.

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Speaker 1: You see RBG of MAGA.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, Derek, don't I don't know, speaking of which,

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Speaker 3: Speaking of which, and I wrote in my newsletter today,

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Speaker 3: I'm not a psychologist, so I can't tell you what

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Speaker 3: Lindsay Graham is going through. Most of the MAGA todies

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Speaker 3: were content to just put out those little bleats about

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Speaker 3: we need to build a ballroom because of what happened,

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Speaker 3: which was a complete non secutor with Aron It.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm Megan McCain. You know, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to hear any other word against that ballroom.

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Speaker 3: God, yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Megan McCain, whose brain has been broken so many times,

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Speaker 3: I don't know. But Linzy Graham, not content with that,

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Speaker 3: comes out and says, we don't have the taxpayers pay

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Speaker 3: for most of all of this, And everybody, even Republicans,

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Speaker 3: are going, wait, wait, the ballroom, the bunker ballroom was

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Speaker 3: supposed to be paid for with private donations. And now,

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Speaker 3: you know, Lindsey Graham, you know, Donald Trump's chief most enthusiastic,

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Speaker 3: desperate fluffer, comes forward and says, no, we need to

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Speaker 3: stick the taxpayers with the tab for all of that.

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Speaker 3: And boy, I'm talking about populism losing the like, losing

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Speaker 3: the narrative. Here is like, with everything that's going on,

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Speaker 3: we really want the taxpayers. And by the way, if

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Speaker 3: a government has enough money too, if the government has

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Speaker 3: has five hundred million dollars to bail out the world's

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Speaker 3: shittiest airline, Spirit Airline, and another four hundred million dollars

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Speaker 3: to pay for Donald Trump's grotesque ballroom, then obviously Republicans

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Speaker 3: have sort of decided that taxpayers are a bottomless pit, right,

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Speaker 3: There's an infinite amount of money they can suck out

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Speaker 3: and it's.

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Speaker 1: And you know, the Trump administration started with the richest

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Speaker 1: man in the world cutting NIH funding right National Institute

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Speaker 1: of Health funding for cancer research because it was too expensive,

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Speaker 1: so he cut the way the funding worked. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of we've lost a lot of science. And in fact,

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Speaker 1: earlier this week, Robert Kennedy Junior, who you may know

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Speaker 1: as having a brain maturn, Yeah, he said, we are

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Speaker 1: losing the science war to China.

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Speaker 3: Oh really, how did that happen? Huh? Maybe when you

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Speaker 3: fire all the members of the National Science Board. That's

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Speaker 3: probably not a great move right that you're doing all

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Speaker 3: of that. I mean, this is I don't know who

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Speaker 3: first said it, but the client is a choice and

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Speaker 3: this is not just the client, it is destruction. I mean,

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Speaker 3: and of course the irony. And I'm glad you brought

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Speaker 3: this up because when you think of all the things

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Speaker 3: that were cut by the world richest man, you know,

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Speaker 3: whether it was you know, funding for AIDS research. And

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Speaker 3: by the way, AIDS is making a resurgence around the world,

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Speaker 3: you know, I know it it's hyperbole sometimes to say,

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Speaker 3: well people will die because of X, Y and z.

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Speaker 3: In this particular case, people will die. They are dying

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Speaker 3: they have died as a result. Is because we wanted to.

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Speaker 1: Say, I mean, these are cancer cures that are not happening,

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Speaker 1: go on, sorry.

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Speaker 3: Well well, and because we couldn't afford it, because we

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Speaker 3: wanted to be fiscally conservative. And now Donald Trump in

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Speaker 3: his now the Republicans have embraced Donald Trump's you know, cacistocracy.

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Speaker 3: What is throwing out cash like skittles to the least

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Speaker 3: worthy people you can have? But I don't know. I

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Speaker 3: have to say though that after the shooting, the you know,

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Speaker 3: fortunately it was not a tragic shooting, but after the

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Speaker 3: shooting on Saturday, the way that Mada sort of shamelessly

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Speaker 3: pivoted to the ballroom, I mean, I have to admit

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Speaker 3: I'm endlessly entertained by all of the siicaphans who bleeded

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Speaker 3: out identical things. And you know what I wrote, I

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Speaker 3: thought Megan McCain had when I first saw it, when

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Speaker 3: we said you, I don't want to hear another fucking

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Speaker 3: word about the ballroom, And I thought, well, this is

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Speaker 3: going to be the dumbest tweet of the night. And

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Speaker 3: no I was wrong, because there were dozens saying exactly

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Speaker 3: the same thing. The message discipline but also kind of

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Speaker 3: they self identified themselves. It was like, who is the

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Speaker 3: most shameless toady out there? And they're all like raising

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Speaker 3: their hands, going, I will tweet out this incredibly stupid

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Speaker 3: thing about the ballroom and the fact that Megan McCain,

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Speaker 3: John McCain's daughter, was like first out of the shoot. Well,

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Speaker 3: I mean clarifying moment and you.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure no, I'm sure you knew John McCain.

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Speaker 3: Well, I met him and I supported him at one time.

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Speaker 1: And he was I think of like, in some ways

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Speaker 1: the best of what republicannor Republican Party was, right. He

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Speaker 1: had been a captive, he had I mean, you know

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Speaker 1: that there's that moment where he says, you know, no,

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Speaker 1: Barack Obama's not you know what he comes into.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. He was a serious man. And I'm glad

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Speaker 3: you mentioned that because I've thought about that moment where

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Speaker 3: somebody was at a rally and you know it was

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Speaker 3: saying you should denounce this Muslim and he said, no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: we're not doing that. He's a good man, he's a

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Speaker 3: family man. That's the kind of thing that is almost

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Speaker 3: inconceivable in Republican politics these days. Also, John McCain was

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Speaker 3: serious about matters of war and peace. Now, people might think, well,

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Speaker 3: he was a warmonger. No, he's somebody that understood what

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Speaker 3: was at stake, what it meant. When he came out

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Speaker 3: against torture. He spoke from personal experience. And now we

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Speaker 3: have a president who has this and when I say

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Speaker 3: a fetish for brutality and torture, I mean that quite literally.

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Speaker 3: By the way, kind of got lost in the in

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Speaker 3: the shuffle. You see that Trump is bringing back wants

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Speaker 3: to bring back firing squads for execution. Now, what's that about?

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Speaker 3: You know, this is like it's like a man with

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Speaker 3: like all of his lurid fantasies of cruelty he is

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Speaker 3: trying to implement. That's that flows right from Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: John McCain never would have gone along with that kind

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Speaker 3: of shit.

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Speaker 1: Well, and John McCain was in fact tortured in a prison,

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Speaker 1: so he and he had all sorts of problems from it.

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Speaker 1: But that is the question of like why you have

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Speaker 1: people who have served run the armed forces. What I've

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Speaker 1: actually been really struck by in this administration is this

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Speaker 1: administration has tried, really has tried really really hard to

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Speaker 1: make the military more you know, sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: bring them back in time to a time when they

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Speaker 1: weren't as diverse, you know, the time before Vietnam, when

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Speaker 1: it was more segregated and people were you know, that

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Speaker 1: the military was crueler and not as diverse and not

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Speaker 1: as egalitarian. And what I've been really struck by is

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Speaker 1: that we've seen that our military has operated in a

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Speaker 1: way that has been really successful, and our political leadership

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Speaker 1: has been a free disaster. Like at every point we've

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Speaker 1: seen the military, I know, you know, do well, and

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Speaker 1: the leadership be just terrible.

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Speaker 3: What what what? What a what? A split screen? And

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Speaker 3: by the way, speaking of which I have to mention

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Speaker 3: this too, when when Donald Trump called into whether the

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Speaker 3: squawk Box the other day, and and and somebody had

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Speaker 3: given him she about how long wars were, and he's

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Speaker 3: reading it, well, you know, world War one was this

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Speaker 3: long and World War two is as long. And I've

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Speaker 3: only been at this for five months. It's actually only

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Speaker 3: been two months, but he's lost track of all. Right,

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Speaker 3: But then he said, and the Vietnam War, I would

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Speaker 3: have won that very easily. This is the war that

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Speaker 3: that he where he dodged the draft, claiming that he

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Speaker 3: had bone spurs he died. He and you know, he

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Speaker 3: said that his avoiding of vernuredle disease was his personal view,

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Speaker 3: and now he's saying he would have won. This is

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Speaker 3: a man who is so deeply, deeply unseerious about all

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Speaker 3: of this, which again, let's go back to the Trump

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Speaker 3: obsession that in his brain right now, if you had

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Speaker 3: to do a map of Donald Trump's brain, there'd be

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Speaker 3: you know, Iran over here, and there would be you know,

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Speaker 3: retribution big here, and then there's the ballroom in the arch.

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Speaker 3: What is that about? Except I did my podcast with

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Speaker 3: Anne Applebaum and she says, you know, this is a

429
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 3: feature of authoritarians that they they have a fear of

430
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 3: They want to last. See Donald Donald Trump doesn't. He

431
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 3: doesn't want to be laughed at, but he also doesn't

432
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 3: want to be forgotten. So he basically wants to, you know,

433
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 3: create all these monuments to himself. But it is interesting

434
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 3: that that at a time when there's so much going on,

435
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,159
Speaker 3: that that this is the number one thing. If you

436
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 3: woke him up at three in the morning, and so,

437
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 3: what do you care about more than anything else in

438
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 3: the world. I think he'd say the ball I mean honestly,

439
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 3: I think he would say the ballroom.

440
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 1: Well, and also feels like all that Donald Trump is

441
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,400
Speaker 1: interested in is ball you know, is building stuff and

442
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,640
Speaker 1: tearing stuff down, Like that's the part of the presidency

443
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: he's really interested in. And none of that's really supposed

444
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 1: to be what the president does.

445
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,959
Speaker 3: No, but you know, he's he's he wants to redesign Washington,

446
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 3: d C. In his in his own image, which is

447
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 3: like and I'm I'm not going to go there. I'm

448
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 3: not going to go to Godwin's law. But there were

449
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,400
Speaker 3: other leaders who, in the twilight of their reign were

450
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 3: obsessed with all of their architectural projects because this was

451
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 3: how they were going to have the thousand year rain.

452
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 3: Now he knows, I'm not mentioning anybody by name, but

453
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 3: you know who else had models of what the city

454
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 3: would look like, you know when everything was was was over.

455
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 3: But I'm just hoping, by the way, you know, since

456
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 3: we're wandering around here, I'm gonna be very interested to

457
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 3: see what Disney and ABC do now with with Jimmy Kimmel,

458
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 3: I am assuming that they are not going to cave

459
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 3: in this time. It would be a disaster if if

460
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 3: they if they did. But you know, but isn't it

461
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 3: interesting that this all flows from that White House Correspondence

462
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 3: dinner that was supposed to be a celebration of the

463
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,479
Speaker 3: First Amendment. And what's the big takeaway from from this

464
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 3: that the President of the United States actually wants to

465
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 3: take away the First Amendment rights of Jimmy Kimmel. I mean,

466
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 3: it's just the dirony. You You weren't at the dinner, right,

467
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 3: you didn't hang out with all the beautiful people. I mean,

468
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 3: I'm here Wisconsin with my dogs, so I never get invited.

469
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: Well, I would say too. I think you're right, and

470
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: I think it's a really important point that what we've

471
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: seen and it comes to this idea like there's corporate censorship, right,

472
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: there's this sort of corporation censoring themselves because they want

473
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 1: to have They want to they want to be able

474
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: to make deals, right, they want to be able to

475
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: be anopolis. And that was such a big part of

476
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 1: the White House Correspondence dinner this year, right, Like Barry Wise,

477
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: who is now the heir apparent of you know, she's

478
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: gonna be she's running CBS News, which was this venerable

479
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: nonpartisan institution that she's now running and that recently had

480
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: an interview with Donald Trump for where, which was, by

481
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: the way, the Nora O'Donnell interview with Donald Trump where

482
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: they were it was such a I mean, I don't

483
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: know if you watch that.

484
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 3: I watched the edited version.

485
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, the face you're making. For those who are not

486
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 1: watching this on YouTube, you should see that Charlie f

487
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: Charlie face, because it's exactly the face I had well

488
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 1: watching it, which was what was it? Exactly?

489
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:47,199
Speaker 2: It was?

490
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 3: Would payback for the look.

491
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 1: See.

492
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 3: This is why the news media cannot get into bed

493
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 3: with politicians. It's why this coziness, because you are compromised.

494
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 3: It means that people are going to look at this

495
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 3: and go, why are you asking this question? Why are

496
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 3: you not asking this question? I mean it was and

497
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 3: of course, you know, speaking of ironies, you know, Donald

498
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 3: Trump is bragging about the you know, all the money

499
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 3: that he got for suing CBS sixty minutes for editing

500
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 3: their Kamala Harris allegedly editing the Kamala Harris interview. What

501
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 3: people saw, what I saw on the air was a

502
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,880
Speaker 3: very very heavily edited interview of him, which made him

503
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 3: sound marginally more coherent than he actually was in real life. However,

504
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,239
Speaker 3: as as much of a lost opportunity as that was,

505
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 3: I do think the immortal words coming out of that were,

506
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 3: you know, I am not a rapist. I am not

507
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 3: a pedophile. So Richard Nixon back in the nineteen seventies

508
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 3: famously said I Am not a crook, which became a

509
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 3: meme for the Ages, and Donald Trump basically said, hold

510
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 3: my beer, I am not a pedophile, I am not

511
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 3: a rapist. Words never spoken before by the President of

512
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 3: the United States on national network television. And you know,

513
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 3: good jobs, Barry Wise.

514
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: And there's Molly's law, which is if you're defending yourself,

515
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: you're losing.

516
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 3: Yes, well it means The funny part about that, of course,

517
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 3: was she didn't even ask him. She read this this

518
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 3: thing and it was like, you know, I am not

519
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 3: a rapist, and well, you think he's referring to you,

520
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 3: which I actually did think was kind of an interesting moment.

521
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 3: It's like, you know, you're protesting a bit much, you know,

522
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 3: I mean, like, yes, I don't like rapists either, you know,

523
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 3: but why did you think he was talking about you?

524
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 3: And by the way, does he still own EG and

525
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 3: Carroll eighty million dollars. Has he paid that up yet?

526
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: He certainly owes her five Okay, I think might owe

527
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: her more. But cut the check man, Charlie Sykes, You're

528
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: the best.

529
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 3: I hope you'll come back anytime, anytime.

530
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: As you know, Jody Canter covers the workplace, technology and

531
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court for The New York Times and is

532
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: the author of How to Start Discover, Bring Your Life's Worm. Welcome, Welcome,

533
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: Jody Cantor.

534
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 4: Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to do with you.

535
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: So explain to us what this book is. This book

536
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: comes from a graduation speech.

537
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, I'll tell you the story because it was

538
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 4: very unexpected for me. I mean, my day job is

539
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 4: that I'm an investigative reporter at the New York Times.

540
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 4: I'm like currently focused on the locked box of the

541
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 4: Supreme Court, enjoying at work very much. Had not been

542
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 4: in the market to write a book. And then I

543
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 4: got an invitation a year ago from Columbia. I'd gone

544
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 4: there undergrad and the semi an email asking me to

545
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 4: give the undergraduate commencement address a big honor, a kind

546
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 4: of a bad offer for reasons you remember, which is

547
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 4: Columbia was in chaos, and my friends were like, don't

548
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 4: do it, you're going to get food, like call in sick.

549
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: Do another second about what exactly that chaos was. Just

550
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: for everyone who's not completely cluded.

551
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 4: The campus was entering like it's nineteenth stage or of turmoil.

552
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 4: I mean Israel, Gaza, encampments, protesters, cops, Trump targeting the school.

553
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 4: It was like one thing after another and this place

554
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 4: that you know, I think.

555
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: The police had been brought in to go into a building.

556
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 4: Yeah. Completely. And also by this point, I mean President

557
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 4: Trump was like targeting a student for political speech, right,

558
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 4: that's right. So everything felt like gloom. Everything felt like controversy.

559
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 4: So my friends were like, don't do it, you're going

560
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 4: to get booed. But I had the opposite impulse. I

561
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 4: was like, give me those kids for fifteen minutes because

562
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 4: I was so upset by everything that had happened there.

563
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 4: And listen, as a reporter, you're usually on the sidelines.

564
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 4: You're an observer. Mmmm. Like my mom instinct started kicking in.

565
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 4: This is my moment to get in there. And then

566
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 4: the students gave me an incredible assignment. I mean, I

567
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 4: love hard questions. It's like, what's the point of an

568
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 4: easy question right now. And they said to me, we

569
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 4: chose you because of your career. Our class, despite all

570
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 4: its political differences, has an urgent question for you. It's

571
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 4: something we are all feeling, which is, in this crazy environment,

572
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 4: how do you find and start your life's work? And

573
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 4: the question really really grit me because I've covered employment

574
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 4: my whole career. I mean, the Harvey Einstein story was

575
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 4: about work, right, Like some people think it was about sex,

576
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 4: it's not really. It's about him using work as a

577
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 4: means of exploitation. And in my stories I had seen

578
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 4: like the beginnings of the technological change rippling through the workplace.

579
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,719
Speaker 4: I'd also spent a lot of time on campuses talking

580
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 4: to students, and year over year felt this sense of

581
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 4: like rising cynicism about the workplace. And you know what

582
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 4: these Columbia students were facing was really intense. Like they

583
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 4: had been told to go into stem they did.

584
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were all everyone. I have a kid that age,

585
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: so it's so funny, Yeah, because it's like everyone was

586
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: told to like learn to code. None of my kids

587
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: could ever fucking code or do stam And I was like, well,

588
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: this seems very stupid, and now it turns out learning

589
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: to code nobody cares about learning to code. That's really

590
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: an AI job.

591
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 4: Correct, And you can go even bigger with that, moll.

592
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 4: You can take your point and say, all of us

593
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 4: and our kids lived our lives to climb Mount College right, right,

594
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 4: to get in to somehow cover the costs, whether through

595
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 4: our own pockets or financial aid like that was like

596
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 4: the massive struggle of our lives, many many years. And

597
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 4: now these kids are graduating and they're saying, I did

598
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 4: everything right, and I applied for one hundred and fifty jobs,

599
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 4: and I still can't get a bite. That is a

600
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 4: very hard, good question. So I felt really fault to

601
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 4: answer it. I gave the speech. It's on YouTube if

602
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 4: anybody's curious. It went well, but I could not stop

603
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 4: thinking about them after I gave the speech, in part

604
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 4: because more students were coming to me asking questions, and

605
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 4: also because the employment environment was getting worse. So I

606
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 4: wrote them this book called How to Start, And it

607
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 4: is like an escape plan from the gloom and doom

608
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 4: that everybody else is telling them is inevitable. We're hearing

609
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 4: so much recitation of how awful the entry level job

610
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 4: market is right now, and we're hearing, you know, all

611
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 4: of these scary predictions about AI. That's not what this

612
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 4: book is. The book is looking at that environment and saying, okay,

613
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 4: what are young people actually supposed to do in the

614
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 4: face of this, and saying, you know, giving up on

615
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 4: work is not an option. I mean, you can't afford

616
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 4: to do it individually and then collectively. Work is our

617
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 4: means of progress. And if you give up on work,

618
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 4: you give up on everything.

619
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: Rare, right, No, it's true, and I also think that

620
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: it's not doable. So what did you learn from covering workplaces? Like?

621
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: What did you learn from the sort of ship of

622
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: that what you saw.

623
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 4: I'll give you a tech thing, and they'll give you

624
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 4: a Weinstein thing. Technologically, what I started seeing about a

625
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 4: decade ago, and this is really crusting now, is that

626
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 4: the workplace is undergoing a digital transformation. Things that used

627
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 4: to be hammide and personal and human are getting digitized. Like,

628
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 4: for example, I wrote a story a couple of years

629
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 4: ago about productivity points and all of these workers not

630
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 4: just like Amazon warehouse types, but white collar workers who

631
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 4: were being monitored for productivity points, like even I found

632
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 4: aspice chaplains who had to count their productivity points even

633
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 4: as scared for the dying. So you could draw a

634
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 4: straight line from that to AI stuff, right to this

635
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 4: attitude of like the machine can do it better and

636
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,240
Speaker 4: it's got this efficiency that is very valuable but also

637
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:49,720
Speaker 4: terrifying in its force and power and potential destructive force.

638
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 4: And also I would add to that, do we know

639
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 4: what AI is going to do to entry level jobs yet? No,

640
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,399
Speaker 4: we do not, it's too early. But I can tell

641
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 4: you what it's doing right now, which is is changing

642
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 4: the hiring process Molly trying to get a job, which

643
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 4: has always been in anxiety inducing thing. It's so lonely,

644
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 4: it's so digital, it's so style.

645
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 1: But we don't know that that's actually because of AI.

646
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: The excuse is AI.

647
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 4: Well, a lot of the hiring tools are being dominated

648
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 4: by AI. So for example, we're seeing AI interviews. Now

649
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 4: I am meeting young people who are like Jody. I

650
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 4: applied for one hundred and fifty jobs. I didn't meet

651
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,399
Speaker 4: anybody in the process, and the only interviews I had

652
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 4: were AI interviews.

653
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 1: Wow, how does that work?

654
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 4: So we can doing AI roleplay? Molly?

655
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, because I just have no idea. And

656
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: by the way, as you're talking, producer Jesse is texting

657
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: me saying, I hear this all the time too, I've

658
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: never heard it, so there I go.

659
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 4: So I'm going to be the AI and you're going

660
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 4: to be the real person. Okay. The AI I can

661
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 4: either be like text or voice on a screen, like

662
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 4: a mere question. I could be agenic AI, meaning like

663
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 4: I'm a character, like a charming little job interview or

664
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 4: a character. And I'm saying, Mollie, tell me about a

665
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 4: situation at work when you had to collaborate with somebody difficult,

666
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 4: or tell me about a situation at work when you

667
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 4: had to scramble on your feet and make a sudden change,

668
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 4: like typical job interview question. So then you got like

669
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 4: a three to one prompt like we're in a camera

670
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 4: booth or something, and you record your answer and you say, well,

671
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 4: I was doing this podcast and this thing happened. Okay,

672
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 4: So that's recorded on video. Nobody's gonna watch that video.

673
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 4: Your answer is analyzed and crunched by the AI and

674
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 4: then sent to the hiring company with like recommendations about okay,

675
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 4: like your next round of interviews should be with such

676
00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:58,720
Speaker 4: and such person.

677
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: So basically you're doing all this input and nobody's even

678
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:02,879
Speaker 1: seeing it.

679
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 4: That is exactly what young people, they are saying. They're saying,

680
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 4: I don't feel seen. They're saying. Hiring is a black

681
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 4: box because if you're sitting there with an in person interviewer,

682
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 4: even if they say very little, there's a lot you

683
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 4: can pick up in terms of body language or little

684
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 4: comments where you can, you know, actually ask them for

685
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 4: feedback at the end of the interview when you like,

686
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 4: I applied for jobs when I was young that I

687
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 4: didn't get, but I learned something in the pursuit of

688
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 4: them that is happening last now and so you know.

689
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 4: And then the dangerous message of the AI, including some

690
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 4: of the AI hype that we don't even know you know,

691
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 4: will be fulfilled, is like it's saying to young people

692
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 4: you're not needed.

693
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 1: Right that a computer can do your job.

694
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 4: A computer can be a paralegal, a computer can be

695
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 4: an analyst. So that's a terrible message, it's a damaging message,

696
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 4: and it's false.

697
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: But also because nobody knows. I mean, I would try

698
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: to do my anything without looking over it. I wouldn't

699
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: even trust it anyway, because I think it's dry.

700
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 4: And also we all know that workplaces get stale without

701
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 4: young people. We need so anyway, So listen, we could

702
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 4: describe the doom and the gloom and the bad things forever.

703
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 4: But the hard thing and the thing I try to

704
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 4: answer in the book is what is a young person

705
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 4: actually supposed to do in this situation? Like I don't

706
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 4: even think this book's forever. And to be honest, like

707
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 4: if you're just like if you think work is a

708
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 4: lost cause and you just want to work nine to

709
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 4: five and some meaningless thing and tune out and your

710
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 4: real life begins at five point fifteen when you leave. Fine.

711
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 4: My book is for people who want to fight for

712
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,720
Speaker 4: their dreams and ambitions and find a path to really

713
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 4: authoring their life's work into having it mean something, because

714
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 4: I you know, in my own life, in my own

715
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 4: experience as a reporter, my work is the most meaningful

716
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 4: response I have to the trouble of the times of

717
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 4: the time we're living in interesting.

718
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 1: I want you to talk to me about, like what

719
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: you think if you're one of those kids, what you

720
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: tell them to do.

721
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 4: Part of the reason I wrote this book, Mollie, is it,

722
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 4: I sa Is there some good advice out there? Sure?

723
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 4: But I saw a lot of young people getting either

724
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 4: bad advice or no advice. So here is what I

725
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 4: think you want in career, and here's what I think

726
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 4: we want to teach young people to find. I think

727
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 4: you want to pair a craft with a need to

728
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 4: define each term and then talk about how they combine.

729
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 4: A craft is a special skill that you have some expertise,

730
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 4: something you do really well that other people don't know

731
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 4: how to do. Mollie, you know how to put this

732
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 4: podcast together in a really compelling way. It's not your

733
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 4: only craft, but that is part of your craft. Could

734
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 4: be surgery. That's like very very offious wise, it's.

735
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 1: A little different than to generally podcasting and surgery not

736
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 1: but yes, I get it, but let me.

737
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 4: Keep going right. Being a firefighter is a craft. Running

738
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 4: a really complicated restaurant dinner service is a craft. Writing

739
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 4: a recipe really well for cookbook, that's a craft. Meaning

740
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 4: what I want to say to young people and this

741
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 4: has to be there pursued in their search. But one

742
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 4: of the things that is going to make you more

743
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 4: happy and more secure in your work life is having

744
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 4: something that you know how to do really well that

745
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 4: other people don't know how to do. There are a

746
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 4: couple of reasons for this. One is that there is

747
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 4: the thrill of mastery, right, like I love putting together

748
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 4: a complicated New York Times investigation. That's very hard to

749
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 4: see when you're twenty two years old, cause you have

750
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 4: to get all the way up here. You have to

751
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 4: get really good at craft to experience its highest pleasures.

752
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 4: But the satisfaction of using your expertise really well is immense.

753
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 4: Another thing is that your craft protects you because listen,

754
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,439
Speaker 4: the market is cool. We can be fired at any time,

755
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 4: the show could end whatever, right, But your craft is yours.

756
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 4: It can't be taken away from you. It prevents you

757
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 4: from being treated as disposable or interchangeable. So I think

758
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,240
Speaker 4: being young, the years in college afterwards is about pursuit

759
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 4: of a craft. It's about trying different crafts. It's about

760
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 4: like figuring out what the potential ones are, narrowing it down,

761
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,959
Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera. But then for craft to become

762
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 4: really powerful, I think you want to pare it with

763
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 4: a need. Interesting And when don't you say need, I mean,

764
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 4: ask yourself, what is your independent assessment of what society

765
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 4: is going to need over the course of your working life,

766
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 4: what products, what care, what information? And what I'm talking

767
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 4: about is dispensing with the conventional wisdom, like I think

768
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 4: you and I are about the same age, and like

769
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 4: over the course of our lifetimes, we've seen this roll

770
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 4: or coaster or conventional wisdom of things you supposedly have

771
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 4: to study. Like when I was in high school, it

772
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 4: was learn Japanese because the Japanese are going to take

773
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 4: over the world. Meanwhile they're stock markets slumped for thirty years. Okay,

774
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 4: learn Japanese, learn genetics, learn Mandarin, forget the humanities, learn

775
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 4: computer science.

776
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: Listen.

777
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 4: I mean all of those things are great pursuits, Like

778
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 4: those are all right, fabulous areas to study. But the

779
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 4: idea that you the idea that if you don't do them,

780
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 4: you're going to be a loser, and the idea that

781
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 4: these are somehow golden tickets, we've seen that proven false

782
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 4: again and again with computer science most recently. So instead

783
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 4: by need, you're saying, what is the thing, like if

784
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 4: craft does authority, need is propulsion? What is the need

785
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 4: that your work is going to fulfill that is going

786
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 4: to make it meaningful and create a market for it.

787
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 4: The need like I'm sitting here at a little phone

788
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 4: booth at the New York Times. The need that the

789
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 4: New York Times sotholosis for factual, reliable information, and we've

790
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 4: built the business that.

791
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: It's a good point. I mean, I wonder how much

792
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 1: all of those things were the sort of artificial group think,

793
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 1: you know, like when we were young, everybody was like,

794
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 1: Japan makes really good cars, so Japan is going to

795
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 1: eat her at lunch, and not like nobody was like

796
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:21,919
Speaker 1: Japan is very you know, it doesn't grow, and so right,

797
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: like there just wasn't. Things weren't sort of thought of

798
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: in ways that were dynamic. They were thought of in

799
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: ways that were very sort of group thinking. And so

800
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 1: you had like, for example, when my daughter started kindergarten

801
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: and she's a senior now, everyone told us, like they

802
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: all have to learn how to code, they all have

803
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: to do robotics, they have to do all that. My

804
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: daughter never did any of that. And like when I

805
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: made her do robotics, she like did the writing part

806
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: of the robotics, and I was like, damn it.

807
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 4: And like the kid after my own heart.

808
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: Right, And now the point of the story is now

809
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 1: she's a senior and they're all trying to find these

810
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 1: humanities kids because there are very few, because all the

811
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 1: kindergarten kids were taught to code. And the thing is like, ultimately,

812
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: you can't push these kids into being something they're not,

813
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: or you can, but I can't do it with mine.

814
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 4: And you can't avoid struggle because struggle is what makes

815
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 4: you who you are. Like this pursuit of a so

816
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 4: called golden ticket, I understand this is the time when

817
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 4: everybody's craving stability. It's a scary time. You know, who

818
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 4: could blame a young person, especially a young person from

819
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 4: a less privileged economic background, who's like, I want the surest,

820
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 4: steadiest thing around. The problem is that without risk, we

821
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 4: get nowhere. Like my friend s there Perl and I

822
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,240
Speaker 4: were talking about this the other day and she said,

823
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 4: you know the thing I say about relationships, which is

824
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 4: that they need a dynamic balance between security and stability

825
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 4: on the one hand, and freedom and exploration on the others.

826
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 4: She said, it's completely true of careers too. If you're

827
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 4: not taking on any risk, you're not growing. And so,

828
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 4: even though it sounds like counterintuitive advice, I think we

829
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:08,760
Speaker 4: have to warn people that running towards the supposedly safe

830
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 4: thing may actually end up being inhibited.

831
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 1: Yes, oh, no question, And I think that's a really

832
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 1: good point. And it is. You know, it's funny because

833
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 1: it's like it's graduation season and I'm giving my first

834
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: graduation talk so at Bennington College where I graduated. I think, yeah,

835
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: and I'm very excited. But it's also it's the last

836
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: weekend in May, so it's that long weekend.

837
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:33,879
Speaker 4: Do you know what you're gonna say yet?

838
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I know what the theme of the speech

839
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: is going to be, but I don't have this speech.

840
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 1: It's funny because I saw Alex and I was like, Alex,

841
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: can you help me with my speech? Is a friend

842
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: of ours speech here? But yeah, among other things.

843
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:45,839
Speaker 3: But yeah.

844
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: So the question though, is like, it's such an interesting

845
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 1: moment for the rest of us who are not graduating

846
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: things because we are looking at this sort of moment

847
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,839
Speaker 1: in American life where there's a lot of transition. And

848
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: also this is just super fascinating. Thank you so much

849
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:05,879
Speaker 1: for joining us, Jodi Candor.

850
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 4: My pleasure, Molly, it's so great to be with you

851
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 4: a moment.

852
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: Pete Jesse Cannon, Miley Jung Fast.

853
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 2: So in our moment of fuckery. Today we have that

854
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 2: the Trump administration has decided to cancel a bunch of

855
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,439
Speaker 2: windmill funding because you know, how we beat China, which

856
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 2: we're told is the justification for everything.

857
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 3: Right falling behind on energy.

858
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, so here's where it is. Trump hates any kind

859
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: of clean energy, and so he is using hundreds of

860
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 1: millions of taxpayer dollars to pay off the leases for

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Speaker 1: these wind farms because he hates clean energy. And when

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00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:54,240
Speaker 1: we have Brannas this summer, and when those enormous AI

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00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 1: data centers make it completely impossible for any of us

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00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 1: you have power to run our computers or etc. Etc.

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Speaker 1: We will have Donald Trump's canceling wind farms to thank

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Speaker 1: So thank you Donald Trump for paying off a French

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Speaker 1: energy giant for not making us, you know, make us

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Speaker 1: more dependent on oil and gas and hurting us when

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Speaker 1: it comes to climate. Thank you, Donald Trump. That's it

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Speaker 1: for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday,

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00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 1: Thursday and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics

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00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 1: make sense of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast,

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00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

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00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:46,760
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening