1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio and Unboss Creative. I'm Bridget Todd 3 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: and this is there Are No Girls on the Internet. 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: What does it mean to be a whistleblower? And how 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: do we treat women who speak out against wrongdoing? Right now, 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: you've probably heard of Francis Hogan, the former Facebook employee 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: turned whistleblower who collected information for a series of expose 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: a s about the harm that Facebook has called in 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: our communities and around the globe. My name is Francis Howgan. 10 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: I used to work on Facebook. I joined Facebook because 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: I think Facebook has the potential to bring out the 12 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: best in US. But I'm here today because I believe 13 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: Facebook's products harm children, stoke division, and weak in our democracy. 14 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: This week, her findings will be rolled out in what's 15 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: being called the Facebook Papers, a series of coordinated stories 16 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: and seventeen different media outlets by sased on the internal 17 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: documents she photographed during her time working at Facebook. But 18 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: how can isn't the first woman to blow the whistle 19 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: on Facebook. In September, a year before Halgan spoke out, 20 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: Sophie's on a woman of color who worked as a 21 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: data scientist at Facebook uncovered that Facebook was slow to 22 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: act or in some cases did nothing at all about 23 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 1: coordinated fake campaigns by foreign governments that were manipulating citizens 24 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: and destabilizing democracies. Only when Sophie spoke up, she didn't 25 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: get to testify before the Senate or go on sixty 26 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: minutes to tell the world what she found, and in 27 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: some cases media outlets didn't even refer to her as 28 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 1: a whistleblower, just some former employee. Sophie is the kind 29 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: of person who would rather be at home playing with 30 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: her two cats than doing interviews, but that hasn't stopped her. 31 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: She continues to speak up, including recently testifying before Parliament 32 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: in the UK. When a whistle blower speaks up, we 33 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: all see the polished interviews and here the snappy soundbites, 34 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: but Sophie wants people to know the reality that whistle 35 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: blowing can be thankless dangerous, personally costly work. Here Sophie story. 36 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: So if you're jung Street her cat Petter, that's absolutely why, 37 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: that's absolutely why you wanted you might meet to speak right. 38 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: He just wanted me to go along at lengths about 39 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: how getting my cats are and how I had them. Actually, 40 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: actually you probably know me about you as a whistleblower 41 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: and former Facebook employee. So Sophie, I have to ask, 42 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: just before we get into everything, just with everything that's 43 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: going on with the Facebook and your your role in 44 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: whistle blowing, how are you, like, are you feeling supported? 45 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: Are you feeling overwhelmed? You know how Sophie doing and 46 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: momstly feeling in a bit overwhelmed, But like I don't 47 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: In case you didn't know, I'm an introvert who hates 48 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: any and attention and hates the public spotlight and just 49 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: wants to stay home and put my cats and and 50 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: so frankly, I sort of wish that they had gotten 51 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,959 Speaker 1: a pr FAM or something, if not in us. Judging 52 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: by the difference in responses, I did, I mean, I did, 53 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: I did ask for I did ask for one. When 54 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: I was starting that they turned me down and they 55 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: decided that I would yellow it. As it turns out, 56 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: you're knowing this does not work. Let me tell you that. Yeah, 57 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: I mean, that's actually a great place to start, you know, 58 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: as someone who is an introvert, as someone who is 59 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: not really that interested in being in the public eye, 60 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: what has it been like navigating this experience as someone 61 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: who doesn't really want to put themselves out there like that, 62 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: it's been difficult, it's it's it's it's honestly a bit 63 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: like potent taste. But I mean, I think many people 64 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: can relate to the experience in general of doing something 65 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: that they don't need to, don't want to do because 66 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: it's important. Like I think most people don't want to 67 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: wake up but it's x am in the morning to 68 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: go into the office or something like that. But most 69 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: but money people do it anyways, and because they need 70 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: to make a living to survive. And and I see 71 00:03:55,200 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: this just another version of the same thing, like there 72 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: are parts that they were surprised at how well I do, 73 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: like Frank the Frank Thee. When I started, my greatest 74 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: worry was that I would have a panic attack on 75 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: life national television or something. And there's other things that 76 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: I'm doing about myself, like apparently I study when I'm 77 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: never in an interview or something like that, which is 78 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: which I mean I don't usually do in everyday conversation. 79 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: And there's not that I noticed that's actually a good 80 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: thing to point out. I feel like people don't realize 81 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: the cost, like the personal cost of whistleblowing, that it 82 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: comes with a lot of work, a lot of physical stress, 83 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: a lot of challenges, and when you do it, you 84 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: are kind of taking a lot on that. I don't 85 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: think people really see people. People just want to see 86 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: this like polished, eloquent person speaking truth, but then they 87 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 1: don't see the stress and the physical manifestations of what 88 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: that looks like. Yes, I'm not polished or under quin 89 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: Actually I have a bit of a t on my 90 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: face right here. My personal excuse is that I have 91 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: nothing to hide from the people of the world. That 92 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: is my cause for not wearing makeup. It's easy to 93 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: think of tech employees is having tons of lucrative job 94 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: opportunities at the ready, But that wasn't really a sofie situation. 95 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: In fact, when she first started working at Facebook, she 96 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: just kind of needed a job, and Facebook, with its 97 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: massive influence on all of our lives, well, here was 98 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: a chance, she thought to make some real change, to 99 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: have a hand in making Facebook a real tool for 100 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: good from the inside something. What brought you to working 101 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: in tech? How did you wind up working at Facebook 102 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: in the first place. Frankly, I needed the job to 103 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: make money to survive. I applied to a lot of faces. 104 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: Facebook gave me an offer. It's the honest explanation. I 105 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 1: applied to a bunch of them, and I was expecting 106 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: a few others two. Except if I had waited a bit, 107 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: maybe I would've gotten some more offers, but Facebook had offered. 108 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: It was and and honestly, I was also partly motivated 109 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: because they wanted to help fix Facebook. Because it's easy 110 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: for a lot of people, especially in America in the 111 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: United States, to say we should just quit Facebook and 112 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: not use it. But that's not an option for many 113 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,359 Speaker 1: people in most of the world. In parts of for instance, 114 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: rural India. In Africa, for instance, Facebook is essentially the 115 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: Internet and people do not have the option to leave it. 116 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: And so by refusing to work for a company like this, 117 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: you essentially really inquation any influence that you could have 118 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: over it. And they saw it was important for me 119 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: to try and fix the company from the inside, to 120 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 1: give the chance at least and they think they did 121 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 1: accomplishout more the boy I was there, then then they 122 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: would have been able to from outside the company. For instance, 123 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: they took down the troll farm operations of two separate 124 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 1: road governments, and ultimately a lot of people have made 125 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: that consideration. Like when they joined Facebook until them a 126 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: dancing Facebook was good for the world and was trying 127 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: to try and fix it. They told me, you'd be 128 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: surprised how many people feel that way. And I don't 129 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: want to say that the most people, Like a lot 130 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: of people just want to do their do their nineties 131 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: and go home at the end of the day, which 132 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: is perfectly understandable. Like I knew people who were, for instance, 133 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: on HMMB visas, which means that their residency is tied 134 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: to employment and so for instance, and some of them 135 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: were unhappy that's a situation, but didn't feel comfortable with 136 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: speaking out because if they did, they could get fired 137 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: and immediately deported back home. Now the cases, maybe people 138 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: have families that they need to support back home, maybe 139 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: they have sacredatives, maybe they maybe they have children or 140 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: etceuter And like with up blowing, is not for everyone. 141 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: You take on certain risks both financially, go personal, etcetera. 142 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: And even rocking the boat is not something that many 143 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: people do not feel comfortable with. But but they are 144 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: certainly also people at Facebook who feel strongly about fixing 145 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: the system, or at least did and try to worry 146 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: how to do so. All they were there, Many of 147 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: them have since left the company. Some of them have 148 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: spoken out to varying extents, like there's always going to 149 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: be a self selection bias, by which I mean, if 150 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: you think Facebook is a double you're that's likely to 151 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: work for Facebook. If you think the Facebook is the 152 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: greatest thing since slight spread, you are more likely to 153 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: work for Facebook. If you think that podcasts are evil, 154 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: you are not likely if you start a podcast or 155 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: or listen to one. And so the people I am 156 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: who are listening now probably do not have negative opinions 157 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: about podcasts, and and that sort of self seduction bias 158 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: happens in everything. Like Facebook did regular surveys of how 159 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: many how many events employees thought that Facebook was making 160 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: the road better? That number, that number fluctuated between fifty 161 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: and seventy. Boy, it was there, it was, It was 162 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: on the higher end. Earlier on it was much though 163 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: it got towards fifty million left. And that may sound 164 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: very high to you, but it's also important to remember 165 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: we have a certain advantage coming from the United States 166 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: and Europe, presumably like series have generally some show people 167 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: much more positive on facebooking countries like Indonesia compared to 168 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: the United States, where the mood is very negative, because 169 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: for many people, Facebook is the Internet. It's the way 170 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: that they connect to people, and they aren't any other options, 171 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: any other awainabilities like there is here. Well, working at Facebook, 172 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: Sophie found that foreign governments in places like India, Ukraine, Spain, Brazil, Bolivia, 173 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: and Ecuador have been using big Facebook accounts to generate 174 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,959 Speaker 1: fake engagement to manipulate their citizens. She found evidence of 175 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: cordated campaigns doing this in an attempt to manipulate political 176 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: outcomes and to help or hinder certain political leaders. And 177 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: even though this was technically against Facebook's rules, there really 178 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: wasn't anybody whose job it was to stop it. So 179 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: Sophie decided to do it herself. On top of her 180 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: official job at Facebook, she worked to flag these fake accounts. Now, 181 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: if you asked me, I would say that Facebook probably 182 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: should have given her a raise and thanked her for 183 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: doing this extra work to make their platform that much 184 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 1: more secure, But they fired her instead. When you started uncovering, 185 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: you know what Facebook calls this in authentic behavior? Um, 186 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: you basically were like, oh, you know, we know this 187 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 1: is happening, but no one's really enforcing a policy against 188 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: curbing it. And so you kind of single handedly made 189 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: that your business even though it wasn't really like technically 190 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: your job. Did you feel sort of motivated by like 191 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: an internal system, like an internal more like system of morality? 192 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: Were you like, well, this is wrong and I had 193 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: to stop this, Like what motivated you to take this on? 194 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: Facebook has no official slogans, that's nothing that Facebook. It's 195 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: someone else's problem. And that was always what I used 196 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: that internally as an excuse. And what this means, it's 197 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 1: that when you see something wrong, you don't assume it's 198 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:18,959 Speaker 1: someone else's problem. You don't see someone else is fixed, 199 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: will fix it. Because when you do that, a round's 200 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: like all that came. Person can fix it. That person 201 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: can fix it. I'm not doing it myself. And the 202 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: idea is that when you see something wrong, you stop 203 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: in and fix it yourself. And this is a slogan, 204 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: of course it is that's not actually get obeyed very much, 205 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: but I mean it gave me some official cover where 206 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 1: I was there. Ultimately, of course, I was personally motivated 207 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 1: to do this, I mean it fell in a gray area. 208 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: I could argue it was within my preview even though 209 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: it's what I was expecting to do. Do you think 210 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: that your work trying to combat these inauthentic profiles? Do 211 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: you think that that's why Facebook let you go? I 212 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: don't know. I cannot read minds. They don't know the 213 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: decisions that were made by people higher up. Like I 214 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: know people who believe that I was let go for 215 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: this reason. It's hard to meet to personally saying like 216 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: the facial reason I was let go, of course, was 217 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: under performance. The way I would personally describe this is 218 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: that it fell into two separate areas. The first was 219 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: that in the second half of twenty nineteen, during performance 220 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: reviews this season, it was officially decided that the work 221 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: I was doing outside what my manager told me to 222 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: do did not count for my performance, and as the result, 223 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: I was under performing. The second part of it is that, 224 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: of course, the pandemic hit in twenty twenty. This resulted 225 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: in many people working from home. This result, I mean, 226 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: many people had a lot of difficulty with it. I 227 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: was one of them. My mental health and performance suffered, 228 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 1: so I was actually anti performing them and Facebook pad 229 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: in the official policy that in the first half of 230 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: twenty twenty they would treat everyone as exceeding expectations because 231 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: you are exceeding our expectations by doing sover and braving 232 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,839 Speaker 1: it through the pandemic or something like that. In my case, 233 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: they decided how over that, because I was already officially 234 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: engine performing before the pandemic, they didn't want to give 235 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: me the way that they would for others. And they 236 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: hopefully makes sense, like Facebook is a company at the 237 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: end of the day, and ultimately they hired me to 238 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: do a specific job that they was trying to do 239 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: in addition to this at the same time, and as 240 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: anyone who's tried to hold down multiple full time jobs 241 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: at the same time can tell you, it's very hard 242 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 1: to do that. Well, let's say, click right at her back. 243 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: When an employee leaves Facebook, it's common for them to 244 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: write what's called a badge post, a goodbye memo published 245 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: on workplace, which is kind of like Facebook's internal Facebook 246 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: for Facebook employees. Now, usually these posts are typical goodbye, fair, 247 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: it's been great working with you, keep in touch. Only 248 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: Sophie didn't do that. Instead, he posted a seven thousand 249 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: ish word screed laying out exactly what she'd seen during 250 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: her time at Facebook. In the three years I've spent 251 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: at Facebook, I found multiple blatant attempts by foreign national 252 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 1: governments to abuse our platform on a vast scales to 253 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: mislead their own citizen read and caused international news on 254 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 1: multiple occasions, she wrote, I have personally made decisions that 255 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: affected national presidents without oversight, and taken action to enforce 256 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: against so many prominent politicians globally that I've lost count. 257 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: I have blood on my hands. So you leave Facebook. 258 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: When you're leaving, you published an internal memo as you're like, goodbye, badge, 259 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: and I guess I have to ask, what is going 260 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: through your head when you hit published? In this memo 261 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: you talk about having blood on you see that you 262 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: have blood on your hands. I mean, this memo was 263 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 1: earth shattering. What's going through your mind when you hit published? Honestly, 264 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 1: it was probably that it was very sleepily proved. You're 265 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 1: that I mean, And I stayed up from midnight until 266 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: eight am that morning. Right in the memo, there was 267 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: that second decision. And there's anyone who has taken an 268 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: old lighte too to write something can tell you you're 269 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: the result is not going to be the greatest. And 270 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: I took a quick four hour nap after that because 271 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 1: I cannot actually function on no sleep, unlike some people. 272 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: Am very jaendous of the people who can. But then again, 273 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: I don't drink coffee. Maybe they should have. And so 274 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: I posted it like an hour or two before and left. 275 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: So this is a bit of a tradition at Facebook. 276 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: It's called the badge post. When you leave in the company, 277 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: you post a picture of your employee badge and you 278 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: put and you write something with it. It's usually it's 279 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: not usually as controversial as mine, of course. Oftentimes it's 280 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: just brought statement I was so happy to work with 281 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: all of you. You are all great. I am like, 282 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: I am going to Pinterest next, I'm doing this. I 283 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: thank you for being part of my journey. And but 284 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: sometimes they are also more controversial and people have criticized 285 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: the company's in the bag posts before, like several employees 286 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: started the idea of hosting a password protected copy on 287 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: an external website and only sharing the password and link 288 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: with within't initial badge post. This was after the company 289 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: had taken down a few small controversial internal badge posts. 290 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: So the idea was that if you share the Lincoln password, 291 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: then people can share that even after the company takes 292 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: down your internal post, and this were dissuade them from 293 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: doing so and etcetera. So the initial reaction was mostly 294 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: from people at other people who did not read the 295 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: memo because because reading so and solves an eight words, 296 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: it's a very time consuming affair. There was a lot 297 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: of initial expressions of support and etcetera. There's of course 298 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: a self seleuction bias, by which I mean people are 299 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: usually fairly prodite and not super rude, and if you 300 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: have a coworker that hits you your guts and you're 301 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: leaving the company, they are probably not going to go 302 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: up to your faith and say, oh my god, you're 303 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: finally leaving and I'm so tired of you. You're e 304 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: EO and finally rate of you and start going to 305 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: be finally she's gone quietly and not tell you anything. 306 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: And the people who are like were like, I'm so 307 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: sorry you're gone. They will they will tell you that. 308 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: So that's what I mean by self selection bias. But 309 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: there were certainly people who were very sad to hear 310 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: me gone, and they were certainly people who were exlad 311 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: to hear about the details. And I don't know if 312 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: there was anyone who was like more ha ha if 313 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: I only got read of her, but I mean again't 314 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: read minds. And so anyways, the company took down the 315 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: Internet workplace post if you always after I posted it, 316 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: and then then they called me asking me to take 317 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: it down from a website. I told them they would 318 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: do that if they restored the Internet work they suppost. 319 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: They they demoge and the next thing I heard from 320 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: them was tomorrow when I was told that my website 321 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: had been taken down. A few days later they got 322 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: made domain taken down to by the registroies. So I'm 323 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: sure the lawyers were very bity that weekend. There was 324 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: a big employee bagdash because this is not typical at Facebook. 325 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's been changing, but Facebook has historically 326 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: been a very open company. That's why we had access 327 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: as employees to talk to other employees. It's so much 328 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: at the same time, that's why was able to brief 329 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: a company vice president about the problem in the first plates. 330 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 1: And so, like most organizations, there's intrinsic conflict when it 331 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: stated goes coming conflict with the selfish motive. The Internet 332 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: version was restored after some adict after some adicts and etcetera. 333 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 1: To the employee back that I think the official statement 334 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: from the company was that they took it down because 335 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: it contained a linked because it contained a linked to 336 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: sensitive Internet documentation outside of outside of outside of the 337 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: company reach. And they restored it after I agree to 338 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: take it down, which is something that makes them look 339 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: reasonable and also connot be contradicted with me because they 340 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 1: no longer had the audience. I know that Facebook offered 341 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: you a severance if you sign an NDA. Is there 342 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: any part of you? Is there, like a version of 343 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: you that would have signed that? Not really? I mean 344 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: maybe maybe if I wasn't considering doing anything of this, 345 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: maybe if I maybe I was just doing the ninety 346 00:17:57,920 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: and the first place. But then this without being very 347 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,239 Speaker 1: rid of front like they offered me about sixty four 348 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: assaults into the oars for in a severance package. They've 349 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: had a lot of stipulations. One of them was in 350 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 1: the eight non nonisparishment agreement, etcetera. And so these are 351 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: usually worded very These are often worded very broadly in 352 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: tech companies. In my in mind, my recollection of the 353 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: nondisparishment agreement was saying, basically, I couldn't criticize the company 354 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: in any way, shape or form, and and this was 355 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: extremely broad and so I'm going to give an example 356 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: of of how how broadly the supplies. And so, of course, 357 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: a week or two ago Facebook went down wrote wide 358 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: for a few hours. Suppose that during that time period 359 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: someone asked me, Hey, I see Facebook is down. Is 360 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: it down for you too? And they check, oh, I 361 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: can't face access Facebook either. It's done. At that moment, 362 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 1: I am technically in violation of a nonisparishment agreement because 363 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: I have said something critical on Facebook. But I mean 364 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: not that they would average too to enforce it, because 365 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: I would be ridiculous. But that's because but that it 366 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: is technically some ten negative or critical about Facebook, that's 367 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 1: the series is stung you. And if it's even if 368 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: it's public to accessible information or something, it's just that 369 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: it's worded extremely broadly. And that was my official reason 370 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: for not signing it. Had the time which this seemed 371 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: pretty promused by but accepted before she was fired from Facebook. 372 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: Sophie was pretty much single handedly trying to keep foreign 373 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: governments from of using the platform to manipulate their citizen 374 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: ring with no oversight whatsoever. I was left in a 375 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: situation where I was trusted with immense influence in my 376 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 1: spare time, Sophie said in her badge post, a manager 377 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: at once teaser saying that most of the world outside 378 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: of the United States was effectively the Wild West, making 379 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: her their part time dictator. He meant a statement to 380 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: be a compliment, Sophie writes, but it illustrated the immense 381 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: pressure upon me. She started thinking, I can't be the 382 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: only person on the planet who is responsible for this information. 383 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: What if something happens to me? What if I get 384 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: hit by a car? And kind of by coincidence, she 385 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: encountered Julia Carey Wak, an accomplished tech reporter for The 386 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: Guardian US, and that's how our findings reached a new audience. 387 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: Someone things already talking to Julia. It was two years 388 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: ago now before this had happened. It was very coincidental. 389 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: The first time I met with her in person, I 390 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: wasn't intending to put out the way, so it was 391 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 1: more I was setting up because I mean single points 392 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: of fender are bad. What happens if you get run 393 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: away by a car the next day or is untra it? 394 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: So I was taking it was intentionally contingency. I gave 395 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,719 Speaker 1: you some information and made your promise not to use 396 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: any of it and unless there was study was something. 397 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: She promised that she wouldn't try to kill me with something. 398 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: I'm joking. It's a good promise to get before, even 399 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: before you like spill everything doing journalists. Of course I 400 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: am joking. And any ways, and this was in Oakland. 401 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,360 Speaker 1: I arranged with some friends to be in my other 402 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: by as they agreed that if anyone asked, I was 403 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 1: at the cost petting the cats the entire time. This 404 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: is something I actually visited for at other times I 405 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: went to I went to oak and then dropped off 406 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: of my electronic devices with them. I'd also dressed up. 407 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: I also I had also dressed up in a cute dress. 408 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: I do not fear dresses almost ever. And the reason 409 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 1: for that was if anyone from if I ran into 410 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: anyone I knew by coincidence and they could contradict my 411 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: first undy by then, hey you see someone, They're sneaking around. Unusually, 412 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: they also dressed up pretty and usually nights. What is 413 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: this thing that goes through your head with the assumption 414 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: right exactly, So that so that was my second other bye. 415 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,239 Speaker 1: I was really I was having a thing. I mean, 416 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: it wasn't it wasn't necessary in the end of course, 417 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: I mean went into anyone And it was just that 418 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: was a paranoia alst name a bit surprised that Francis 419 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: Hoagan got away with digg into work place as much 420 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: as she did, but it but it sort of makes 421 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: sense because Facebook is fundamentally it's fundamentally company that respondsed 422 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: these things rather than acting proactively like as I've criticized 423 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: for it many times before, because they could have easily 424 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: called sults, looked into people who were taking into many 425 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 1: documents outside the important areas, outside the area of expertise. 426 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,880 Speaker 1: But apparently that they didn't do that. They only apparently 427 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: they only do that when it becomes a pr crisis 428 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 1: by the time but and and it's too late, which 429 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: has been the practiced in many other cases much more 430 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 1: important to the road and democracy. So it's supposed to 431 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: say around that it's their own that it's apparently the 432 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:32,360 Speaker 1: practice for interne security and and and employee monitoring as well. 433 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: If you're going to blow the whistle on a powerful institution, 434 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: there's a lot of practical things to consider, like should 435 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: you take screenshots on your work computer or phone? No, 436 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: you shouldn't use end and encrypted systems like signal on 437 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: your personal devices, Sofie suggests. There are bigger picture questions too, 438 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: like what should you do about money? Sophie says it 439 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: consider saving up before you go public, or how should 440 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 1: you protect yourself from harassment? So if you suggests using 441 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: a service like delete me to scrub your public information 442 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: from the web beforehand. Now, at the time, there weren't 443 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: really a lot of go to guides for how to 444 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: blow the whistle, But now women like Sophie are helping 445 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 1: to protect and guide the next generation of whistleblowers who 446 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,479 Speaker 1: hold the powerful accountable. There weren't any guides for how 447 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: to do list at the time I was making it 448 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: do up non I eventually wrote the wrote the guide. 449 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: You might have seen it, Turner. I mean by by 450 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: now other people have written guys. Your guys are so helpful, 451 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: you know, as something that I really appreciated in your 452 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: guide is that you talk about how you know whistleblowing 453 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: is not for everybody. Is not everybody can do this, 454 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: Not everybody would want to take on that kind of 455 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: scrutiny that you might get when you do this, you know. 456 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: I think that's just a really useful point that it's 457 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: really not for everybody. Yeah, Like, like I've been askband 458 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: all the people, and the first thing I always tell 459 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: them is that it's a personal decision. Because it's very 460 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: easy from the outside for people to judge, for people 461 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,239 Speaker 1: to say, you shouldn't have stayed at the company that's known, 462 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: you shouldn't be working here, you should be coming forward, 463 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: you be talking to the press, etcetera. But but but 464 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: but it's different from this personal Different people have personal situations, 465 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 1: like even just turning down a two dollar a year job. 466 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: It's it's it's very difficult. So many people have many 467 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 1: people are impart of rich situations. Maybe they have specific circumstances, 468 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: and it's not my place to judge them for not 469 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: doing what I did. No one is obligated to immolate 470 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: their career and torture themselves on the period of world 471 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: opinion for the for the purpose of for for for this. 472 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: I don't think that's something we can reason. I don't 473 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: think that's something we can reasonably expecting many In most 474 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: cases this podcast, it's all about identity, how our identities 475 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: really make the difference when it comes to our experiences 476 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: in tech and how we show up online. And the 477 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: same thing is true whistle blowers, and I feel like 478 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: we're really seeing that play out in real time. The 479 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: more marginalized you are, the more fraught speaking up can be. 480 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: Sophie says that one of the biggest parts of her 481 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: identity that is presented a challenge in her whistle blowing 482 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: is the fact that she's kind of introverted. When I 483 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: said earlier that Sophie prefers hanging out with her cats 484 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: to giving interviews, well I really meant it. You'll even 485 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 1: hear a guest appearance from her cat midnight later on 486 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: in our conversation. It's really not difficult for me to 487 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: see the ways that Sophie is being publicly treated because 488 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 1: of her intersecting identities. Even in a lot of well 489 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: meaning reporting, I've noticed that some just can't help trying 490 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 1: to pick whistle blower Francis Hagen against Sophie and obviously 491 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: sexist framing two women can't possibly both be speaking up 492 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: without there being some kind of cat right between them, right, 493 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: and what's worse, Some simply erased Sophie altogether, implying instead 494 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: that Francis is the real whistle blower, while Sophie is 495 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 1: just some disgruntled former employee who was fired for being 496 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: bad at her job. After Francis went public, I saw 497 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: a flurry of headlines about Sophie saying a second Facebook 498 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 1: whistle blower has come forward, even though Sophie actually spoke 499 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: out a full year earlier than Francis did. And it's 500 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 1: kind of the rub. We don't have to buy into 501 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 1: these limiting narratives about whose voice matters and whose voice doesn't. 502 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: And we have got to believe in a world where 503 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: there's a room for more than one woman to speak 504 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 1: truth to power. Our identities shouldn't keep us from being heard. 505 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: Something that I'm really struck by, and that you talk 506 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: about a lot on this show, is the way that 507 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: our identities really intersect when we're talking about these things. 508 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: And I firmly believe that whistleblowing is an identity issue 509 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: that like, the more marginalized you are, the trickier it 510 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: can be. So if you're a trans woman, it's gonna 511 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: be harder for you. If you're a woman of color 512 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 1: or a black woman, it might be harder for you. 513 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: Has that been your experience as you have have your 514 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: identities made this experience of being a whistleblower fraud the 515 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: identity that has made it the most difficult. It's being 516 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: an introy who hates attention. I would say in that 517 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: I don't think it was surprised anyone to say if 518 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 1: if you hate it, if you hate attention and want 519 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: nothing to do with attention, and they're doing this like 520 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: like having tea suport, you'll be less good at getting 521 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: attention and like frank Day should have gotten a pr 522 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: firm and but like like almost at the end of 523 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: the day, it's it's hard. It's hard for me to say. 524 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: It's hard for me to say how different people have 525 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: responded differently based based based on my message and who 526 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: I and who I am. Like, I'm happy that France 527 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: States has come forward so so so so that's Frankly, 528 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 1: someone who is more photogenic, and that's of a introvert 529 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: who wants to hide at home, can be kind of 530 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: the torch past to them and can be and can 531 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: speak out publicly in my study, because I was never 532 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: the right person from this from the very start, and 533 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: they never wanted to be. That's so interesting. I mean 534 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: I've seen, I mean from following your tweets, I've seen 535 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 1: folks will be like, oh, former Facebook employee out there there. 536 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 1: It's a bit yeah, this is Midnight again. It's a 537 00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: bit funny that I'm just being described as a second 538 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:05,959 Speaker 1: twistle floor Now, yeah, I mean pizza, I mean europe 539 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: thinks I'm first time. I testified to the European Pintament 540 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: last year, and I'm testifying to the UK Parinnament next week. 541 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: But the u S is America, the u S. It's 542 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: the center of the road, of course. And anyways, here 543 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: is Midnight. He's much more important than myself. He's just 544 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: a beautiful cat. He's very dedicated to food. And yeah, 545 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: sometimes when he emails, I can imagine, I imagine protest slogans, 546 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: what do we want? Food? We wanted? Now I would 547 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: join Midnight's protests. I'm also very food motivated, so I 548 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: would join that program. Well, maybe he wants equal access 549 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: to food for a veryvere more. After a quick break, 550 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: let's get right back into it. When I was coming 551 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: of age on the Internet. America, Online basically was the Internet. 552 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: It was the end all and be all of how 553 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: I got online, and in many countries, the same is 554 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: true of Facebook, particularly in the Global South, where text 555 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: messages and cellular data is expensive. Facebook's messaging platform What's App, 556 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: is the way that most people communicate digitally. According to 557 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: data from the Brazilian technology news and research website Mobile Time, 558 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: nearly half of Brazilian say What's App is their most 559 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: used app, followed by Facebook and Facebook owned Instagram. In 560 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: countries like Kenya, South Africa and Nigeria, Argentina, Malaysia and Colombia, 561 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: it's the same thing. So for all the harm that 562 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: Facebook is called in the United States, it's the version 563 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: of Facebook that Westerners used that is actually kind of 564 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: the best version of the platform that's out there, which 565 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: is pretty sad. As Ellen Cushing reported in The Atlantic 566 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: as part of the Facebook papers, It's the version made 567 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: by people who speak our language and understand our customs, 568 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: who take our civic problems seriously because those problems are 569 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: the as too. It's the version that exists on a 570 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: free internet, under a relatively stable government in a wealthy democracy. 571 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: It's also the version to which Facebook dedicates the most 572 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: moderation resources. Elsewhere, the documents show things are different and 573 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: the most vulnerable parts of the world places with limited 574 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: Internet access, where smaller user numbers mean bad actors have 575 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: undue influence. The trade offs and mistakes that Facebook makes 576 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: can have deadly consequences, and Sophie's whistle blowing really helps 577 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: underscore these stark and dangerous differences between how Facebook operates 578 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: in the West and how it operates in the rest 579 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: of the world. And the problem is you kind of 580 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: have to count on people in the West giving a 581 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: ship about what happens in the rest of the world 582 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: for it to make a real difference. In thinking about 583 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: the amazing work that you've done pointing out the harms 584 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: that Facebook was doing around the world. Do you ever 585 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: feel that one of the reasons why, um, when you 586 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: spoke out it didn't really rattle Facebook as much, is 587 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: it because like we're kind of trade aim to not 588 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: care about certain countries that you're talking about, you know, 589 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: countries like India, Ukraine, Spain, Brazil, Bolivia, Ecuador. Like, are 590 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: we as Americans just sort of trained to like not 591 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: give a crap what happens in these places. And so 592 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: when you're blowing the whistle about the way that Facebook 593 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: was being used to destabilize these places, people are just 594 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: like or whatever I think. I think that's a large 595 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: part of it. Like no one, I mean, no one 596 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: says it's so crashily. But it's the case that Americans 597 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: care more about the United States and other Americans, and 598 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,959 Speaker 1: most countries are the same way. In the People's Republic 599 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: of China, people care more about they found those Chinese citizens. 600 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: Indians care more about other Indians, Turkeys, Turkey thinks that 601 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: the road revolves around the Turkey. The Turks think that 602 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: the road revolves around Turkey, etcetera. And and this is 603 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: this is the way, this is the way that the 604 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: road works. And so if if if if ten people 605 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: die in in In, if ten people die in Tennessee, 606 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: were treated much more seriously than if a hundred people 607 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: die in banquet match. I mean, there's no one around 608 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: adding adding adding notes to articles like a hundred people 609 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: died in Bangladesh yesterday, parentheses the equivalent of five point 610 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: two Americans and parentheses. But I mean, in practice, people 611 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: do people, and in practice people do have this sort 612 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: of mental calculation and approach. And this is extremely sad, 613 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: unfortunately and sadly the way that the road is right now. 614 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: But it's also true that it's also true that the 615 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: road tends to change every time. Every time, Like I 616 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: live and live with my girlfriend who's who's white, and 617 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: our relationship would be legal on multiple accounts in California 618 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: a hundred years ago, like slavery was sadly commonplace in 619 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: the United States, and hundred sixty a hundred sixty years ago, 620 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: I mean there have been, there were, there are been 621 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: words for over religion and and looking back we shake 622 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 1: our heads and say, how could have we been so barbaric? 623 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: It's a nature for each generation to look back and 624 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: look back and check the head of their last, and 625 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: they can't and they don't know the future. I don't 626 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: know what it holds. But if I, if I want 627 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: to speculated, guess, I would say that hundreds of years 628 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: from now, when people look back on us today, but 629 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: they will find most barbaric. It's the way we treat 630 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: people differently based on factors as arbitrary as a nine 631 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: strong arm map. When they were born mm hm. And 632 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: they firmly believe that everyone should we have equal rights, 633 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: and it should be treated equally, regardless of the national 634 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: origin or other characteristics. But but that's me, and I'm 635 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: an idea old list. I'd say part of the reason 636 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 1: I haven't been listened to as much, it's also just 637 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: that I dislike sound bites and and sensational its statements, 638 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: and and they like nuance. And it's a nature of 639 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,479 Speaker 1: the current world that this is the opposite track from 640 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: what you should take to get attention, if any as 641 00:33:55,200 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: anyone who's done that, who's used social media can tell you, like, 642 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: like some of some of the criticism about Facebook in 643 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: the in the more right now is frankly a bit 644 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: sensational list and not the most accurate. And that has 645 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: been right. The criticis critics, right, they criticized, but they 646 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: also want to But part of it also feels a 647 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: bit iron like, because this is a world that Facebook built. 648 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 1: This is what gets attention, and it's not surprising that 649 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: that of the criticism and Facebook, this is what gets 650 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 1: to train the first place. God, that's such a good 651 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: point that, like they definitely traffic in the idea that 652 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: what's the most sensational, what's the most polarizing, what's the 653 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: most extreme that gets the most attention, and that economy 654 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: that they have really propped up. It's kind of like 655 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: it's not any wonder that people are defaulting too extreme 656 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: statements about their platform. Yeah, Like, I don't know if 657 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 1: it was intentional from the story from Facebook, but but 658 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 1: but but certainly, but certainly a lot of people have 659 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,479 Speaker 1: the debt. It's a lot of people have the idea, 660 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: have the idea that that that that there's that there 661 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: dance and approach is inherently neutral somehow, and any evasion 662 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: from it, it's it's is the it's is the is 663 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: a dangerous change. And like, ultimately, I don't know if 664 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 1: if Mike or others have ideological reasons for wanting that is, 665 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: if it was just the idea, if it was just 666 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: made in the most sense for making money that they 667 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: justified or what. But it but it does seem pretty ironic, 668 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: a bit ironic to me, even if it's pick God 669 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: against the specific criticism that I find to be countraproductive 670 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: or not not substantial. Yeah, so so you said earlier 671 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: that you're an idealist when you think about Facebook, are you? 672 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: Is there part of you that it's hopeful that do 673 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: you think that it can be it can be saved, 674 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: Can it be a force for good? Or is it 675 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: just too late? Anything can be tooretically changed. The question is, 676 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: though it happened, maybe Mike will have a change of 677 00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: hearty tomorrow. I can't read his mind, I can't read 678 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: if future. But but but fundamentally, I think I realized 679 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: that cynicism, and not only it's amazing work in the 680 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: Mordern day, it's very attractive for people to say the 681 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: road is fundamentally to only broken, then it can't be fixed. 682 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: Therefore I'm not going to do anything, and thus it 683 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: becomes the self a funning prophecy. And then you can 684 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,280 Speaker 1: say tho, like, look, look I was right. Nothing changed 685 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: because in the end nothing, nothing will happen then and 686 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: as and as we the people make it happen. If 687 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 1: you want things to happen, you should You should try 688 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: to make it happen, so you can say you have 689 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: that you tried at the very least, even if it fails, 690 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 1: because if everyone writes it off and says it's facebook 691 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: it's broken, then what's the point. We already know that 692 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: it's ready off of we can't do anything, then then 693 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: that will become a self a funning prophecy. And no 694 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: one will and and no, because no one was up 695 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: forward to fix it with change it in the first place. 696 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: M hm. And so the question of anything happened, that's 697 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: really up to us. It's it's up to it's up 698 00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: to yourself, it's up to me, it's up to the 699 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: people and listening and on them. My am my working myself. Yes, 700 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: yes I am, but that doesn't mean I can do 701 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: it to known. I'm not a superhero. Sophie is amazing, 702 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,800 Speaker 1: but she's right. She's not a superhero and she shouldn't 703 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,280 Speaker 1: have to be. She can't take on a massive, powerful, 704 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 1: global institution like Facebook all on our own. So the 705 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: question is what will we do? How will we honor 706 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: women like Sophie who have risked everything to speak truth 707 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:44,799 Speaker 1: to power. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, 708 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,800 Speaker 1: or just want to say hi? You can be just 709 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: at Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find 710 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: transcripts for today's episode at tangdi dot com. There Are 711 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,320 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridgetad. 712 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: It's a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss creative 713 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer, Terry harry It as 714 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 1: our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. 715 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bridget DoD. If you want to help 716 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For 717 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart Radio, check out the I heart 718 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts