1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy B. 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Polly Fry. We talked about food safety 4 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: and how a whole framework for food safety came from 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: the Space program. Yeah, I had not realized how involved 6 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: Pillsbury was this, which is like significantly involved. Yeah. There, 7 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: So there were several companies that were involved in one 8 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: way or another with making food for the space program, 9 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: but like when it came to the development of hass A, 10 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: Pillsbury is the one that was the biggest player. Um there. 11 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: Work on things like microbiology and controlling microbial stuff was 12 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: also connected to their being able to sell shelf stable 13 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: dough for people to cook at him, so they like 14 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: there was stuff about their business that made sense as 15 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: a potential partner for NASA to send stuff into space. 16 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: We didn't get until a lot about the crumblinus factor 17 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: of the food because that was fairly easily solved and 18 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: also not really related to the food safety aspect of it. 19 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: But like, I hadn't really thought about the part of 20 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: like if you send a protein bar into space, it's 21 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: gonna live through a whole lot of vibrations and jostl 22 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: ng and stuff during the like the liftoff and all 23 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: of that, and then, Uh, they weren't really sure, like 24 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: how is how it a crumbly bar type thing? Would 25 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: it just come apart in zero gravity? Like we need 26 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: to make sure that we don't wind up with little 27 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: bits of food stuck in the instrument panels? Um, And 28 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: I it had not entirely occurred to me that, like 29 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: anybody would kind of say, is this food just gonna 30 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: come apart at the seams in outer space? Um? Do 31 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: you remember a while back, I think maybe before we 32 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,239 Speaker 1: were doing this show, when you were site director for 33 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: House to works it and I was the tech editor 34 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: us getting into a discussion about a paper on fractals 35 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: and food safety and how I think there had been 36 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: maybe an NPR piece about the space program and them 37 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: talking about food safety and specifically one of the astronauts 38 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: really wanted because they'll take astronaut requests of like what 39 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: food would you love to have, and they'll try to 40 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 1: make a space safe version, and one of the astronauts 41 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: had wanted barbecue, and like how tricky that was? And 42 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: I think I ended up pitching an article on fractals 43 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: because of it. That's cool. We did, and it was 44 00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: many moons ago, so I would not expect you to 45 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: remember it. But I always think about it when I 46 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: eat barbecue now, which I don't do very often, but 47 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: sometimes I do love barbecue. There have been some interesting 48 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: papers on that, um yeah, like fractal analysis and food 49 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: structure and just too in case anybody doesn't see the 50 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: connection there, right, Like fractals measure these repeating patterns in 51 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: in anything, but when applied to food, you're thinking about 52 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: things like surface area, because the more surface area food has, 53 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: the more points it has where it can become somehow 54 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: a growth point for something lucky that you don't want 55 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: in your person. And so something like barbecue, even if 56 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: you have like a clump of it, say the size 57 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: of a golf ball, because of all the little ridges 58 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: of pieces sticking out, it has tons more surface area 59 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: than that same clump of golf ball if it's like 60 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: a clean scoop of mashed potatoes. Um. So that's had 61 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: a big discussion about it many yea, literally probably twelve 62 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: and a half years, maybe maybe longer. So long yeah, yeah, Um. 63 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: I grew up in a household where there was always 64 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: a focus on food safety. Um, Like, we grew pretty 65 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: much all of our vegetables, and there was a whole 66 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 1: like freezing, canning, drying process and all summering into the 67 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: fall to like preserve all of this food. And there 68 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: was like just a lot of my mom being very 69 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: careful to can things in a way to prevent us 70 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 1: from getting botul is um from it, like that kind 71 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: of stuff. Um. And then when we were kids, my 72 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: brother got salmonilla um not from something he ate. Um. 73 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: We we pinpointed the likely cause as a turtle that 74 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: he was playing with in the creek behind my parents 75 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: or my grandparents house, and then like not thoroughly enough 76 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: washing his hands afterward before we ate, and none of 77 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: the rest of the family guid it. It was only 78 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: my brother. Uh. And after that, Uh, potential sources of 79 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: salmonella were like lockdown. Yeah. Like previously, like even with 80 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: their just being a lot of focus on making things, 81 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: making sure things were cooked thoroughly and the like their 82 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: correct steps to can things, we were allowed to do 83 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: things like lick the beaters after the cake got mixed. Um, 84 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,359 Speaker 1: But that was no longer. No more of the licking 85 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: the beaters after at At the time, my mom's thought 86 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: process was the egg because eggs are a potential source 87 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: of salmonilla flower actually as a thing that in more 88 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: recent years people have become aware of different things that 89 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: can contaminate flour. We've said this a little bit in 90 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: the show, but like so many of the big outbreaks 91 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: now have nothing to do with with meat or chicken 92 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: or eggs or the things that people have thought of 93 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: as like the big sources of of food boarn illness 94 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: for a long time, it's cantle open spinach and vegan crumbles. 95 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: I have a question for you, because I know you are, 96 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: I would rate you as very keenly aware at all 97 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: times about food safety in a way that like I'm 98 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 1: a little more cavalier. Which is it to say that 99 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, dirt great, But I just I recognize 100 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 1: that there are things I cannot control, and so part 101 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: of me is like, I'm not going to get too 102 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: hung up on this, because yeah, I wake up with 103 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: a cat sitting on my face half the time. Like 104 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: I can't get too precious about certain things. But I 105 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: do wonder what your position is on flips, by which 106 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: I mean, in case anybody doesn't know, a cocktail made 107 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: with a whole egg in it. Yeah, I don't drink 108 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: them very often just because the texture of them is 109 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: a little uh not my favorite. But I am less 110 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 1: concerned about them because, as I understand it, the alcohol 111 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: in them makes it a little bit safe. Right. And 112 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff that to me is like 113 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: a like a risk analysis, right. Like I do eat 114 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: sushi even though sushi is a higher risk food because 115 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: I like get it from restaurants where I trust that 116 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: they're taking the appropriate precautions and buying sushi grade fish 117 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: and uh and that kind of thing. But like I 118 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: also if I get a burger in a restaurant, I 119 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,239 Speaker 1: always order the burger medium well because that's like the 120 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: most safe temperature. And that was the case where all 121 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: of us in the two years of my career that 122 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: we that I wrote about food safety. For my job, uh, 123 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: I worked in this creative department of this company that 124 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: sold cleaning and sanitation supplies. So all of our whole 125 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: jobs was about like cleaning, product labeling and writing and 126 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: designing newsletters to send to restaurants and grocery stores about 127 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: keeping things clean and sanitary. And so when all of 128 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: us went out to eat as a group. Often somebody 129 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: was like checking ahead of time on the website to 130 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: be like, what is the sanitation grade of the restaurant, 131 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: And then all of us always were ordering our burgers medium. Well. Um, 132 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: it's one of those things where you know, is it 133 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: two decades later almost? Uh, It's like it's I'm probably 134 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: more likely to get food poisoning from the salad from 135 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: the burger because requirements on on the meat handling are 136 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: have become a lot strict and in some ways like 137 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 1: the produce has lagged behind a little bit. I am 138 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: a rare meat eater, like I'm that person that loves 139 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: a blue steak. Oh steak is different to me because 140 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: it's the exterior of the steak that's the bigger risk 141 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: when you get all the ground meat ground up together. 142 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: That's also love a rare burger, but I I upgraded 143 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: to medium rare because it made Brian so nervous all 144 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: the time. Also, just for clarity on the flip thing, 145 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: in case anybody doesn't know, a flip involves a whole 146 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: egg and some sweetener. Usually it's different than if you 147 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 1: get a drink made with egg white foam, which is 148 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: the white, and those are usually concerned. Like I know 149 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: people that will do an egg white drink and will 150 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: not do a flip because they get just the whole 151 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: leg makes them a little more nervous. Just in case 152 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: anyone was like, wait, I don't but what am I doing? Yeah? 153 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: Usually a little oh I love a little knak flip boom. 154 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: That's a great way to spend your evening. Um, I do. 155 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: I just they're easy to make, They're really beautiful. I 156 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: know some bars have switched over to doing pasteurized egg 157 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: white like the prepackaged. You have to shake those a 158 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: lot harder though, to get the level of froth that 159 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: you would get from if you just separated a fresh 160 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: egg yourself. Big thing. Sorry, I'm always talking about cocktails. 161 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 1: I often laugh and I at you cringe when you 162 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: see like on social media. Uh, there will be those 163 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: like threads going around about you know, when you walk 164 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: into a restaurant where they kind of yell at you 165 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: and their food safety grade is like a sea that 166 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: it's going to be the best meal of your life, 167 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: and that is often very delicious, It's true. But I 168 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: also am keenly aware of their safety grades and restaurants. Yeah, yeah, 169 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: also not a perfect system. But also I you know, 170 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: if I walk into a place in the grades of Sea, 171 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: I'm like, eikes, I'm probably leaving unless there's no other option, right. See. 172 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: I know you don't watch Bob's Burgers, but there's a 173 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: whole health inspector through line on that show, yeah, that 174 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,719 Speaker 1: you might find hilarious. Um. There was a restaurant when 175 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: I was living in Atlanta. I know what this is. 176 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: I think, Oh, I don't know if you do. Um. 177 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: It was a place that I had eaten a lot, 178 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: and that it was like they're their rest they're grades 179 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: were always you know, pretty good, pretty good, pretty good, 180 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: and then they like straight up failed a health inspection. 181 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: Um and I and then after that it was like 182 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: hi a every time. And I was like, I actually 183 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: have more confidence in that restaurant because somebody messed up 184 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,839 Speaker 1: and they fixed the problem and now it's a priority. 185 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: Is that without naming names because I don't want to, 186 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: was that a sushi place? It was, Okay, it was 187 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: exactly what I was thinking about. Um. Yes, I remember 188 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: that being very scandalous because it was a sushi place. 189 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: Everyone I think that we both knew would like that 190 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: was one of the favorite sushi place. Yeah. Uh, and 191 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: then they had it was like dramatic the way that 192 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,319 Speaker 1: thing rippled through Atlanta because a lot of people love 193 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: to eat there, right, And like you said, whatever it was, 194 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: they were either having a really awful day or had 195 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: like a really awful you know one thing, or like 196 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: an employee that was not being careful. Yeah, and then 197 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: that was not the case anymore ever again. Yeah. Yeah, 198 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: and when it comes to a raw thing like sushi, 199 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: like I like feeling safe eating it, knowing that I'm 200 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: taking a risk by eating it. Yeah. I also didn't 201 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: realize how recent a lot of these regulations and laws 202 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: and guidelines were. Yeah, right, Like at one point, we're 203 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: talking about like a piece of legislation. I'm like, I 204 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 1: got married that year. That's not that far back yet. Well, 205 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: and I like I remember the when the Jack in 206 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: the Box outbreak happened, And it wasn't the only big 207 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: outbreak connected to like a restaurant chain that happened right 208 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 1: around that time, but like it was a big deal. 209 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: That was Like I was in college at that point, 210 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,079 Speaker 1: I did not live anywhere near where the outbreak was 211 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: actually happening. But like even in the we did not 212 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 1: have social media. We only kind of had the Internet. 213 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: We had all her about the outbreak like it was 214 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: a whole big thing, and people were very upset, Like 215 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: because people want to be able to eat food that 216 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: doesn't make them sick, right or worse? Yeah, yeah, because 217 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: that strain of equal I can indeed kill people. It's 218 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: it's very dangerous. Also, this is why I trust no soup. Yeah, 219 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: I don't eat soup almost ever. I will occasionally myself 220 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: make a creamy chowder when I'm craving it, but that's it. 221 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: I don't normally I'll never order it in a restaurant, 222 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: not a soup go. Yeah, it's the thing that I 223 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: think about a lot occasionally. Patrick and I have been 224 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: traveling somewhere, um and I'll be like, oh, I think 225 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: I'll get the sushi, And I'm like, why why would 226 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: you eat in an unknown to us sushi restaurant while 227 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: we are on a trip at like an airport like this? 228 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: That is like not not the risk that I am 229 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: okay with taking. But you know, ordering it from the 230 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: restaurant where we eat at all the time, that's different. 231 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: It was exactly travel where my beloved said to me, 232 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: please stop ordering your burgers as rare as you'll go, 233 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: as you'll go. And he was like, this makes me 234 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: nervous when we travel, because if you're sick, we're in 235 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: rough shape. It's that's fair. Fair. Yeah, a lot of 236 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: my stuff is also making sure as much as possible 237 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: that anything I make for someone else is not going 238 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: to make them sick. That's like the time I become 239 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: the most anal retentive about cleanliness and safety. I will 240 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: ever be right. If I'm like sauteing some stuff for myself, 241 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: I'm a little more sloppy geloppy. But if it's like 242 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: someone else is coming or I'm baking for no, forget it. 243 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: I become really really like put the cats away. My 244 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: cats don't go on the counters, but just in walking 245 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: around the house, they're sure a little fuzz, you know, 246 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: hair cat hair gets in the air. No, we we 247 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: sequester them. We air vacuum the whole area. My cats 248 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: are not supposed to be on the counters, but I 249 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: sure do. You sometimes hear the sound of a cat 250 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: jumping down from something in the vicinity of the kitchen. 251 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: I think I can count on one hand the number 252 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: of times our current crop has ever been on the counter, 253 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: and now they're all old enough that they're like too high. 254 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: They don't want to jump up there. Yeah. Now folks 255 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: know so much about our food practices and cats, my 256 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: distrust of soup. On the show this week, we talked 257 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: about Louie Wayne and Louis Wayne's cat pictures. Did I 258 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: love all of them? I love the cat pictures. I 259 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: love the realistic cats. I love the cats and human clothes. 260 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: I love the vivid landscapes that some people thought were 261 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: like not as good quality as this earlier work. I 262 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: think they're great. I love the kaleidoscope cats. Of course, 263 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: in any person's artwork that spans through the late nine 264 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: and early twentieth century, there's stuff that's very dated or 265 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: inventative by today's standards. With that caveat boy, I just 266 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: like spent a lot of time looking at Louis Wayne. 267 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: I love the the one that I think it's just 268 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: called the Cat's Birthday Party, and it's a bunch of 269 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: cats holding champagne coops and they all look so happy 270 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: and they're wearing little collars like human um, you know, 271 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: like a shirt collar. I love that one. Yeah. Yeah. 272 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: At one point we were talking and I was trying 273 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: to madly write down some notes because the Madam Tabby 274 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: project that he worked on and that story. It wasn't 275 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: until we had read this outline and I was I 276 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: wasn't familiar with that work. But it wasn't until we 277 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: were saying the words that I was like, this sounds 278 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: a lot like the plot of the Studio Ghibli film 279 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 1: That Can't Returns, which has some significant differences. But I 280 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: really think that had to have been an influence on 281 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: that film, which is quite lovely. And there is a 282 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: King of Cats, which is pretty great. Who is this 283 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: giant fat rolling version? Um, But that plot is not 284 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: so different in terms of being allowed to go to 285 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: the Kingdom of Cats. Yeah, and what that means. I've 286 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: seen that movie. It's been a very long time. I 287 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: love it. One of the things about Louis Wayne is that, uh, 288 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 1: it's tricky to pin down information specifically about his life. Um. 289 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: There is one biography that I know of that was 290 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: written in the sixties that I had to get an 291 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 1: out of print copy from a university art library to 292 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: be able to read it for this um and and 293 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: so like getting specific detail and stuff is hard. Um. 294 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 1: And as with many things. The specific detail may indeed 295 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: exists somewhere in the UK in somebody's attic or an 296 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: archive or you know, old hospital records or whatever, but 297 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: like I just don't have access to them. But so 298 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 1: much of his life has become, i think, not necessarily 299 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: by his own doing, just embellished to make it be 300 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: more about cats um or embellished to kind of romanticize 301 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: the idea of like his mental state. One of the 302 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: things that I didn't really get into is there is 303 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: a newspaper article about him that was published in the 304 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,479 Speaker 1: US that's just got a bunch of stuff in it 305 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: that is totally made up, And it has this whole 306 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 1: section about which hand he was using to draw with, 307 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: and the writer implies that he was drawing he was 308 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: drawing like negative subjects with his left hand, like he 309 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: would draw the bad cants with the left hand and 310 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: the good cants with the right hand. Like oh, no, agreed, 311 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: all good and all good and terrible is how I feel. Sometimes, Yes, oh, 312 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: I always say like, uh, rest of peace. Mr Birds 313 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: was the best worst cat I ever knew. Right, he 314 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: was terrible, and I adored him. I will often say 315 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: of mine, you are so good and so bad um 316 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: so anyway, like there's this stuff that's completely made up 317 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: that seems to be part of the Louis Wayne mythology. Also, I, 318 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: when I started working on this, mentally pronounced his name 319 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: as Lewis because it is spelled l o u i S. 320 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: And as a person living in the United States, everybody 321 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: that I have noon whose name is spelled l o 322 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:56,959 Speaker 1: u i S has pronounced it Louis. And if they 323 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: went by Louis, that was like a nickname spelled l 324 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: o u i e. Um. Right, It's one of those 325 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: things where someone goes by Louis, people will be like, 326 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: is someone in your family cajun kidding? It happens in 327 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 1: the South all the time. And so that's and that's 328 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: the thing, like if somebody had French ancestry, or if 329 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: we were like saying an anglicized version of a French name, 330 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: I would l o u i S would be Louis. 331 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: It never I never realized that a lot of people 332 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: um in the UK have the name spelled l o 333 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: u i S pronounced as though it is spelled l 334 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: o u i E. And I had that dawning revelation 335 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: while trying to confirm after having watched that movie that 336 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: came out which is streaming on I think Amazon Prime here. Um, 337 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: having watched that movie and been like, they just called 338 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 1: him Louis the whole time? Was that his nickname? And 339 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: I like went down this whole rabbit hole and was like, 340 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: oh no, a lot of people in the UK spell 341 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: their name like this and pronounced it this way, and 342 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: that I just I don't know, I never maybe because 343 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: I'm not like a British Royal family aficionado. Um, because 344 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: there are also Louise in the British royal family who 345 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: has spelled Louis and pronounced Louie. Well the thing too 346 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: in the US, right, if you're gonna go by Louie, 347 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: often that S is replaced with an E. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 348 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. So like we just would never 349 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 1: like there are two different names in the US. That's 350 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: what I'm saying pretty clearly, there are two different names. Yeah, 351 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: we have people like Louis Armstrong that's usually spelled with 352 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: an S. But then I'm like in my head that 353 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,360 Speaker 1: Louie was a nickname and like Louis was his full name. 354 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: I don't it's the whole this is my whole weird 355 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: rap pool. When I was down in this episode, I 356 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: looked at cat pictures and I thought about how to 357 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: say Louie or Louis Now. I have always wondered, because, um, 358 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: I have had like a passing knowledge of him, you know, 359 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: not somebody I had studied a lot. But it always 360 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 1: struck me as odd that people would talk about the 361 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 1: per aggression of his art style and the stuff he 362 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: was doing that was a little more experimental, as so 363 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: surprising and unusual a development in his later life. Um one, 364 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: because part of me is like all artists experiment and evolved. 365 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: But that's that's one thing. But the other is have 366 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: these people never looked at his ceramics because those cats 367 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: are freaky deaky looking. They're I mean, like they're really cool. 368 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: But they don't look like his early illustrations either. They 369 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: look completely cubist and geometric and really really they have 370 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 1: a very I don't know any way to describe them 371 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: other than saying they have a very specific style that 372 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: could be aligned with many other art styles, but they 373 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: don't look like the cute ceramic kitty figurines you might 374 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: be thinking of at all. No, and apparently so they 375 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,719 Speaker 1: apparently they are very rare, which does kind of suggest 376 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: that maybe there was a shipment of them that got destroyed, 377 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 1: but no record of what ship they might have been on. 378 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: Relatively recently, like within the last ten or twenty years, 379 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: there was a sudden influx of them showing up at auction, 380 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: to the point that people were like, I think these 381 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: have to be counterfeit, Like this is too many of 382 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: these two have suddenly showed up on the market. Anyway, 383 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: I think they're great. They're very fun, They're very futurist. 384 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. I'm also thinking of there's one of his pieces. 385 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: I don't know what it's called. I have seen it 386 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 1: listed as like the Cat's Nightmare or something like that, 387 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about, where it's a kitty 388 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 1: in bed and there are a million owls on the 389 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: bed just just staring at the cat. Yeah. I love that. 390 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: What Yeah, yeah, kitties. This has been like sitting around 391 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: on my uh on my to do list for a 392 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: while as Louis Louie Wayne's cat pictures, like not just 393 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: the person, but also like these pictures, so many pictures 394 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: of cats, yeah, tons of them. I associate them with 395 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: the place where I first saw them, which was cat shows. 396 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: So I think about them in that very specific, wonderful 397 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: and odd environment where everyone knows who Louis Wayne is, 398 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: of course, and it gives me delight. Yeah. Um, because 399 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: he didn't copyright any Even if he had copyrighted all 400 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 1: of his art at this point, most of it would 401 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: probably be in the public domain in most places. So 402 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: there's a ton of it online that you can just 403 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: look at if you just google Louis Wayne. A lot 404 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: of the stuff that's gonna come up first is going 405 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: to be the kaleidoscope cats from later in his life, 406 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: just because there spent so much writing on them. But 407 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: just there's lots and lots of them to look at. Um. 408 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: And so says Friday, if your weekend's coming up, maybe 409 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: you can spend your weekend doing a deep dive and 410 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: the cat pictures. That sounds great. It's not your weekend 411 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,439 Speaker 1: and you want to look at some cat pictures. I 412 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: hope you can find a minute to do it. Um. 413 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: We will be back for the Saturday Classic tomorrow. We 414 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 1: will have a brand new episode on Monday, and if 415 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: you haven't, you can subscribe to our show on the 416 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: I Heart radio app, or wherever you like to get 417 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: your podcasts. Stuff you missed in History Class is a 418 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,679 Speaker 1: production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from i 419 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 420 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.