1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Back in the late sixties, 2 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: probably my all time favorite television show premiered I was 3 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: a little boy. I'd wait on those certain weekday nights 4 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: for the show to appear, and I knew it was 5 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: coming home because of the music, and then the visuals 6 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: would just kind of burst on the screen, that tiny 7 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: TV that my MoMA and I had in our austrailer, 8 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: gigantic waves crashing, exotic land, the place I didn't think 9 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: i'd ever go, still having to this day. But that 10 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: show was called a Wife iv Oh. I was amazed 11 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: by it. And you know what, at the end of 12 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: each show, Jack Lord, he was a detective. He solved 13 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: every one of those cases, it seemed like. But you know, 14 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: for almost fifty years, there was an unsolved homicide in Hawaii, 15 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: one that was so brutal they would never portray on 16 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: that television show from back then. I'm talking about the 17 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: homicide of Nancy Anderson. Today we're gonna talk about it 18 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: and how the case has been solved. Finally, after all 19 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: these years. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs. 20 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, when this case came across the 21 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: wire and I began to read about it. It turned 22 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,279 Speaker 1: up all kinds of memories from childhood for me, because 23 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: you know, you always felt like that the police in Hawaii, 24 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: We're gonna solve these cases that they're confronted with. But 25 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: you realize that your idea that you have from HAWAIII 26 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: VOW from when you were a kid, that's that's merely fantasy. 27 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: That it is the real world out there, and sometimes 28 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: cases just go unsolved. But now in the world that 29 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: we live in, with all of this technology at our disposal, 30 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: things are changing, and they certainly did in this case. 31 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: Joining me is Jackie Howard, executive producer for Nancy Grace's 32 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Jackie, I'll tell you what I know that 33 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: the family of Nancy Anderson is just beyond excited and 34 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: probably sad, but excited because finally, after all these years, 35 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: they appear to have some answers. Nancy Anderson was one 36 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,119 Speaker 1: of nine children, was a large family. So I'm sure, 37 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: Joey that you are absolutely correct, and going back to 38 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: what you were saying in your opening, you're telling our 39 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: age because I did the same thing, watched hawifiive oh 40 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: religiously when I was growing up and never in my 41 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: life imagine that the kind of things that were on 42 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: that show We're Real that actually happened in the real world. 43 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: Covering this case, nineteen year old Nancy Anderson moved from 44 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: Michigan to Waikiki after graduating high school. She was nineteen 45 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: years old. She was working at a McDonald's and when 46 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: she died. When she was killed, it really put a 47 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 1: scare in her neighbors in the apartment complex because they 48 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: had no idea what was going on. Was their exterial 49 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: killer running around? Was there a killer amongst them? Was 50 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: somebody else going to be targeted next? The leads in 51 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:49,119 Speaker 1: this case dried up quickly after looking at boyfriend, salesman, neighbors, 52 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: co workers. The tips dried up, and you're right, it 53 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: took over fifty years to solve this case. What happens, Joe, 54 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: when a case goes cold like this? Obviously technology has 55 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: grown tremendously in the last fifty years, but how do 56 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: you mount an investigation when there really is nothing to 57 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: go on. It's almost like a ghost appeared in Nancy's 58 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: life and ended it. And this is not something just 59 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: you know, just so that we understand that the brutality 60 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: that was involved in this homicide, I can imagine by 61 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: those standards, and during that time was absolutely shocking. They 62 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 1: were in Wiki Ki. This is a location that for 63 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: the most part, people go for vacation or maybe if 64 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: there have the ability, you know, maybe someplace to retire. 65 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: But young Nancy, and she was just out of high school. 66 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: I mean, I think less than a year at that point, 67 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: and she she had made a decision during that period 68 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: of time, which is something you kind of hear a 69 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: lot about now, taking what's called a gap year. You know, 70 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 1: I'm a college professor now and there are kids that 71 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: that take gap years, and that is that period of 72 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: time between the end of high school and generally you 73 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: go off somewhere, you get a job, maybe you travel, 74 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: and some people think that it's a good idea because 75 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: your ma tour a little bit during that period of 76 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:17,119 Speaker 1: time before you actually start your college years. And that's 77 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: what she had done, and from what we understand, you know, 78 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: it was it was her dream, but it was an 79 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: absolute nightmare because if you're a police officer and you 80 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:32,359 Speaker 1: walk into this apartment after the roommate has essentially found 81 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: Nancy deceased, and you know, the roommate. The roommate at 82 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: first thought that this was a suicide. Isn't that amazing? 83 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: She she thought that it was a suicide. So, you know, 84 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: when this call comes out over the radio and there 85 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: we have codes. Actually, you know where where you'll you'll 86 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: hear a radio code that'll come out. And I'll give 87 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: you an example. When I was in New Orleans at 88 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: twenty nine, if the twenty nine came out over the radio, 89 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: that meant death. Okay, that means it's a code for death. 90 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: And then if it was a twenty nine, that was 91 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: code for death suicide. And so can you imagine you're 92 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: a beat officer and maybe this came up as a death, 93 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: may be suspected suicide. You roll onto the scene and 94 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: it is far from a suicide. You've got this young 95 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: woman who was absolutely been brutalized and she's only been 96 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 1: there for a short period of time. You you know, 97 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: you first glance, you know she's living with roommates, she's 98 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: got a job, she's gainfully employed. There's no signs that 99 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: forced entry or struggle. And you're thinking, well, what kind 100 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: of enemy could she have made that would absolutely rip 101 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: her to shreds like this and I can only imagine 102 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: that the local police, we're scratching their heads in this case, 103 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: once the autopsy was done on the body, I would 104 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: have been scratching my head too. The information that was 105 00:06:54,200 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: released found that Anderson was stabbed at least sixty three times. 106 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 1: Sixty three separate wounds were visible. Now, as you and 107 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: I have talked a lot, that number can actually be deceiving, Joe, 108 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: because depending on how in the position the stabs were made, 109 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: you may not be able to really count them. You're 110 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: absolutely right, there's a big difference between stab and slice. 111 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: The boiler plate for it. When we're describing them in 112 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,239 Speaker 1: terms of forensic pathology. The stabs tend to be narrow 113 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: and deep, okay, And we can imagine that. Just imagine 114 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: a stig knife in your hand. You're gonna plunge it 115 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,119 Speaker 1: into a target if you will, so it'll be narrow 116 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: and deep, okay. And if it's a slice, which is 117 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: different than a stab wound, you're cutting across the surface 118 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: and those are more shallow and they're longer, all right. 119 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: So you just think about, you know, an the idea 120 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: of you're you're slicing something, okay, You're slicing a piece 121 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: of paper, it's going to be shallow and it'll be 122 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: long long. So the fact that they said that these 123 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: were stab wounds, they didn't say that they were sharp 124 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: force injury. They didn't say that there was a mixture 125 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: of these wounds gives you an indication that they saw 126 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: evidence of stabbing. Now to your point, and this is 127 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: your right on the money here, because with a stab 128 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: wound and you have this many, you'll get this this 129 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: mixture of these things. And it's hard to try to 130 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: understand where one ends and one begins because you have 131 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: to think, first off, if it is sharp force, that 132 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: means that you're in a very tight personal space with 133 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: the individual. So if you have an attacker that has 134 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: an individual the victim, on the floor and they're on 135 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 1: top of them, these wounds tend to be highly concentrated, 136 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: that means like right on top of one another. Imagine, 137 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: if you will, an old fashioned sewing machine with the 138 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: needle in place, you're moving that needle, or that needle 139 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: is you know, is going up and down at a 140 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,599 Speaker 1: rapid motion and striking very precise areas because of the 141 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: close proximity to it. The only thing that changes is 142 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: moving the cloth beneath the needle. In the same principle 143 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 1: with a stab wound, it's over and over a close proximity. 144 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: You've got this kind of piston like action of the 145 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: individual that is withdrawing the blade and then reintroducing the 146 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: blade into the body. And not all of these injuries 147 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: are going to be the same depth, which is something 148 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: you have to account for. It autopsy, you get an 149 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: idea is too how deep these insults are going into 150 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: the body, because you know, every time you plunge a 151 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: knife down into someone's chest or their their back, or 152 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: their abdomen, these wounds are going to be striking different 153 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 1: anatomical structures. Beneath the skin. You might say, for instance, 154 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: to strike the abdomen, and you're just going to go 155 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: through the abdominal wall, which is made up primarily of 156 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: the skin and subcue fat and the underlying muscle. But 157 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: if you move up the torso, now you begin to 158 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: get into the area where your organs are protected by 159 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: your rib cage, your interior ribs. So unless you make 160 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,079 Speaker 1: it in between the ribs, which is that's called the 161 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: intercostal space, you have muscle that's in between the ribs, 162 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: then you're gonna strike bones, so that wound is obviously 163 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: not going to be as deep as say, if you 164 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: plunge the knife into the into the abdom and the 165 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 1: same as true with the back. And as a matter 166 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: of fact, you're dealing with even more structures back there 167 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: because you have the scapula, which are the the shoulder blades, 168 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: and then you're also talking about the bony prominences of 169 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: the spine. So you begin to think about how many 170 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 1: of these wounds were actually fatal, and that's one of 171 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: the issues that the forends of mythologist has to deal 172 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: with when they're doing this examination. What vessels are clipped, 173 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: what organs are impacted, and then ultimately you know, you 174 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: you begin to measure the amount of vis blood that 175 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: you have contained, say for instance, in the abdomen or 176 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: in either side of the chest a left chest or 177 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: the right chest, and you begin to appreciate maybe what 178 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: organs were impacted to the point where it was no 179 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: longer compatible life, and you can also get a sense 180 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: for how much blood free flowed through those spaces. Another 181 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: surprising finding of the pathology report is the absence of 182 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: any drugs or alcohol in Nancy Anderson's body and the 183 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: fact that she had not been raped. There was no 184 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: sexual assault. So if you take out to likely scenarios 185 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: for Nancy's death that is in something happened while that 186 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: she's intoxicated, or an assault, this makes this a really 187 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 1: strange circumstance. You throw around word like sadistic, you know, sadistic, 188 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 1: you know, kind of falls under this, this kind of 189 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: psycho sexual motivations for killings, you know, sadism, all those 190 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: sorts of things, not satanism, but sadism. You don't have 191 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: to necessarily have and you can talk to most forensic 192 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 1: psychologists that are out there, you know, you don't necessarily 193 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: have to have what would be considered a classic sexual assault. 194 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 1: You know, we're clothing is ripped away and you have 195 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: evidence of sexual assault through rape and these sorts of things. 196 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: To have something that is motivated by lust. Okay, because 197 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: part of this, on this kind of spectrum, you can 198 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: have an individual that will attack someone and rip them 199 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: to shreds and they receive some kind of gratification out 200 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: of this. What's fascinating about this is you begin to 201 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: think back then Honolulu, we mentioned it being portrayed on 202 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: television it's very exotic, and you see, this is not 203 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: a tiny, tiny town. This is a place where you know, 204 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: we've been there, Our nation has been there for years 205 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: and years, occupying space, a lot of military personnel, a 206 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: lot of people coming and going out of this area. 207 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: And so when you see something this brutal as an investigator, 208 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:03,959 Speaker 1: you begin to think, well, do I have any other 209 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: cases that might fit within this category? Because I think 210 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 1: most of us that are we're investigators. We don't think 211 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: that this is going to be a one off event. 212 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: There's somebody that would rise to this level and attack 213 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: a total stranger, a young woman that is just graduated 214 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: from high school. You have to think that, well, are 215 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: there more victims out there? Do you have some type 216 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: of killer that is roaming about that takes pleasure in 217 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: absolutely just ripping a young woman to shreads like this? 218 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: So it makes you examine the evidence very hard. And 219 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: I think that on one hand, if you're looking for 220 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: physical evidence, so certainly sexual assault can be rich with 221 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: that because you can find all kinds of things relative 222 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: to a sexual assault that you you might not find 223 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 1: in another case. Say, for instance, if you have a 224 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: sexual assault, there might be an opportunity if you're gonna 225 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: do what are called pubic combings, which is something we 226 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: do as part of a rape, because um, you might 227 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: find a public care that's not associated with the victim. Okay, 228 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: you might find seminal stains, for instance. And back then, 229 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: one of the things that we look for in cases 230 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: because we didn't have DNA that we returned to was 231 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: if you had saliva or if you had siminal stains, 232 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: you would look for someone that's referred to as a secret. 233 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: And there's you know, just less than fifty of the 234 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: population and I don't know the figure exactly off the 235 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: top of my head are secrets. And what that means 236 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: is that when you test those samples from either saliva 237 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: or from semen and there are other elements of the 238 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: body as well, but in those in particular, you can 239 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: actually find red blood cells contained in those areas. So 240 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: back then, with the absence of DNA, you can actually 241 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: type the blood based upon you know, those secretions that 242 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: you might find in course, as you mentioned, in this case, 243 00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: there there was no evidence of that. And it goes 244 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: without saying nine two where that was a different a 245 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: different time then present day. So much has changed since 246 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,479 Speaker 1: that time. But you know what, basic crime scene investigation 247 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: has not changed, has not changed one whit and in 248 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: this case, I think that the police actually had more 249 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: to go on than they thought. A lot of that 250 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: information came from Nancy Anderson's roommate. So one of the 251 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: things I've learned from you, Joe, was like, let's start 252 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: at the beginning and set up our timeline. So we 253 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: know that Nancy Anderson was talking to, believe it or not, 254 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: two door to door knife salesman the afternoon when her 255 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: roommate came home. She told police she saw Nancy talking 256 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: to these two gentlemen in the living room. Now, from 257 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: there she went into her room, and that time was 258 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: around two o'clock that afternoon, and the body wasn't found 259 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: for approximately three hours later that afternoon, after the roommate 260 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: went to take a nap. The body was found around five. 261 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: The roommate found Nancy Anderson's body in the bathroom. So 262 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: I've got a couple of questions about that, but my 263 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: main question is we know, with over sixty stab wounds 264 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: that this was a very very violent death. And she 265 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: moved from the living room where she was originally talking 266 00:16:54,160 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: to the salesman to the bathroom. How could even f 267 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: the roommate when she first woke up, she thought that 268 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: Nancy had committed suicide because of how she was in 269 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: the bathroom. But if this had been a very violent attack, 270 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 1: as we believe it was, how could she not have 271 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: heard it? How is that even possible? And I want 272 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: to visit this idea of thinking that it was suicide. 273 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: My thought on this when I first read this. Because 274 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: the room, the bathroom that is, has been described as 275 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: you know, almost being bathed in blood, super saturated with blood. 276 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: I think there's something within us in our mind. And 277 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: I'm talking about from the perspective of the roommate. I 278 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: think her initial reaction was probably suicide because it's almost 279 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: like she's protecting herself, you know what I mean. I mean, 280 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: it's like, you think about it, you think I cannot imagine, 281 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: maybe at an unconscious level, that homicide has taken place 282 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: in in my presence you were talking about just a 283 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: second ago. Where how could she have not heard this? 284 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,360 Speaker 1: I think that there's almost this safety switch that flipped 285 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 1: on possibly with her when she's saying, well, it had 286 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 1: to be a suicide, you know, because I can't imagine 287 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:14,199 Speaker 1: the homicide has been perpetrated and to this degree when 288 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: I am asleep just right down the hall from where 289 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: this horror show takes place. And so her initial reaction was, yeah, 290 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 1: this is a suicide. She noticed, and you know what 291 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: what was what cued her is that when she woke up, 292 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: and this is a very important piece of information here 293 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: from an investigative standpoint, she heard water running. The water 294 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: was running in the bathroom adjacent to where Nancy's remains 295 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: were found. And that gives you an indication after of 296 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: course you you know, you've inspected, seen as the investigator, 297 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: gives you an indication as to what was going on. 298 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: Potentially that maybe, just maybe there was an attempt by 299 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: the perpetrator to clean himself up at that point in time, 300 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: that they were making some kind of effort to get 301 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: rid of evidence that they may have on their body. 302 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: Because if the room is bathed in blood, this is 303 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: not something that this individual is going to get away 304 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: with cleanly. They will concurrently be saturated in blood, particularly 305 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 1: over the surface of their hands. If they're wearing longsleeve shirts, 306 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: that will be up to the elbow perhaps, if not, 307 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: if if the lower arm is not protected, you're going 308 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: to have blood stain on both the palmer aspect of 309 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: the forearm and probably the top side of the forearm 310 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: as well, even beneath the fingernails. Because blood is so tacky, 311 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: it's kind of the way that it transfers to the body. 312 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 1: So with the water running, I would I would suspect 313 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: that if there had been a bar soap sitting there. 314 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: And remember this is before the days of of you know, 315 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: where you've got some kind of pump bottle of liquid soap. 316 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: They didn't do that back then. You would have a 317 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: you know, a bar of old fashioned hand soap that 318 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: was sitting there perhaps and the individual was washing their 319 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: hands or making an attempt and soap is There's been 320 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,479 Speaker 1: any number of cases where people have transferred blood from 321 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: their hands to soap, and you know, of course we 322 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: collect that and you can get valuable evidence off of 323 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 1: the surfaces. So because it has such attacking us about it, 324 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: it'll hold onto a number of things. You know, you 325 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: can find hair on there, you can find dead skin cells. 326 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: You can also find blood that will transfer over there. 327 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: You know, as you're holding this, so that the thing 328 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: that you're attempting to clean up with can actually be 329 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: the thing that trips you up. I think that probably 330 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: what it came down to is that within this environment 331 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: I found a number I mean a number of towels 332 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: that have been used, and of course there was blood 333 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: on the surface of that. So that's going to be 334 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: a big starting place for the police. In this case, 335 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: you were talking about the wounds, Joe, there were lots 336 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: of injuries that the pathology report, the autopsy described as 337 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: defensive wounds on her arms and her legs. How do 338 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: you know the difference? How can you tell the difference 339 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: in these kind of wounds? Excellent question. And one of 340 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: the reasons is that that I call this an excellent 341 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 1: question is that if you're targeting an individual as an 342 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: aggressor driving a knife through either the palm of someone's 343 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: hand or through the back of someone's hand, or through 344 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: the webbing. You know where you slice through the webbing, 345 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: and folks will look at their index finger in their 346 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: thumb and that that area right in between there. That's 347 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: often where we'll see a slice injury because people will 348 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 1: grab hold of the blade. You'll see it on the 349 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: palmer aspect or on the palm itself of of the 350 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: hands where the knife will kind of pass over that 351 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: surface and cut the hand right there as well. Those 352 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: are atypical what we refer to as a typical injuries 353 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: because you think of an attacker an aggressor if you 354 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: will moving forward toward a target, Well, where are they 355 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: going to try to stab when they're not looking down 356 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: at the sides of the body where they're going to 357 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 1: aim for the hands or maybe the arms. If you 358 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: throw your forearm up in a blocking motion, that's that's 359 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: not what their target is. And kind of this defensive 360 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: posture that we naturally go into as a response to 361 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: something that's oncoming, whether it's a car, a knife, or 362 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: somebody has has thrown a gun up at us to 363 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: to shoot at us. You know, people throw their hands 364 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,199 Speaker 1: up and arms up as a defensive posture. It's just 365 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: kind of a natural reaction. The way you're able to 366 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: kind of discern between these types of injuries is the 367 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: fact that the typical attacking area is going to be 368 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 1: the neck, the face, maybe certain areas of the head, 369 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 1: and certainly the chest in the aftomen I mean, that's 370 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: that's what the attacker is going after. And you know 371 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: what's really curious about this case as well, and I've 372 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: got my thoughts about this. I'm glad you brought up 373 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 1: these injuries on the legs. Don't commonly hear of defensive 374 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: injuries to the legs. My thought is is that he 375 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: had Nancy in a submissive position, probably on her backside 376 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: on the floor, and she is attempting to kick him 377 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: away with her legs, and he's just flailing at her 378 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: with his knife, and so as she is kicking at him, 379 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 1: he's flaming with a knife. He's actually attempting to stab 380 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: at her legs. And this is my other thought. You 381 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 1: know how we talked about there was an absence of 382 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: evidence of a sexual attack. Okay, maybe this was an 383 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: incomplete attack. Maybe something spooked this individual, because let's think 384 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: about it. The individual has gotten Nancy on her back 385 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: in a submissive position. He's dominant. I've used the term 386 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 1: asymmetrical before, and this is an asymmetrical attack where you've 387 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: got someone that's in a dominant position above and there's 388 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: striking down. You can have it in uh, bludgeoning cases, 389 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: you can have it stabbed hello. You can even have 390 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: it in shooting cases where you're in a dominant position 391 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 1: above the individual and so maybe just maybe the individual's 392 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: goal was to perpetrate a sexual attack, but they couldn't 393 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: complete the action. Maybe they got spooped in some way, 394 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: maybe they heard something. I'm thinking that that this individual 395 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: had to have known, had to have known that the 396 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: roommate was there. But wait, Joe, if we were to 397 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 1: make an assumption that the killer was one of the 398 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: two salesmen, which would seem to be an obvious jump, 399 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: since they were just there and the roommates saw them, 400 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: then we would know the person knew that the roommate 401 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: was there, right, quite potentially, And isn't it isn't it 402 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: odd to these two salesmen that the roommate witnesses they're 403 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: they're selling silverware. You know, you've got a figure that 404 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: contained in the silverware. You've got sharp instruments, right, any 405 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: kind of knives, I would imagine you maybe you have 406 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: you know, some people call them case knives, butter knives, 407 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: you know that sort of thing. You might have steak knives. 408 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: You have all of these sharp instruments. And not to mention, 409 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: you've got serving forks. You've got regular forks, salad forks, 410 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: anything that has a point on it like that, and 411 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: they're selling this and these are the last two people 412 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: that the roommates saw in connection to Nancy. And I 413 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: find that so odd in this case. What are the 414 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: odds of that that those would be these two individuals 415 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: selling these types of items would be part of this 416 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: story is super bizarre. And of course as investigators, you're 417 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: going after these people and they will be known because 418 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: you know, back then, during that time, you and I 419 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: had an off air discussion about experiences that we had, 420 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: particularly when we were younger. You know, vacuum cleaner salesman 421 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: would come by the house regularly, you know, I mean 422 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: people sold encyclopedias. They come to your door and sell them. 423 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: So you'd have salesman traveling salesman that would come about. 424 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: If they've gone to these two young women's apartment and 425 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,360 Speaker 1: knocked on the door. Guess what, They've knocked on other 426 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: people's stores as well. They've probably left contact information with people, 427 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: so they would be easy for the cops to track down. 428 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: At that point in your own an island, you ain't 429 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: going nowhere, so they can track them down. I would 430 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: imagine that early owning the investigation, they were able to, 431 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: you know, kind of strike these two individuals off the list. 432 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: So I am fascinated by the bathroom yet again, because 433 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: the bathroom seems to be a place where a lot 434 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 1: of people end up and getting murdered in the bathroom. 435 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: Do we have a tendency to think that the bathroom 436 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: is some kind of I don't know. You see it 437 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: in horror movies. You see it when we're talking about 438 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: hurricanes or I mean with tornadoes or bad weather. The 439 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: bathroom is safe. The bathroom is safe. Is that kind 440 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: of just something that's ingrained in us? If I can 441 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: get to the bath throm and shut the door, I 442 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: will be safe. Yeah, it's a it's a point of retreat. 443 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 1: And I gotta tell you there's an interesting little aside 444 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: here as well. And I uh, you know, I've posed 445 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: this question of my students a lot, and people that 446 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: I talked to, you talk to other people that were 447 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: in my profession medical legal death investigators. You asked them 448 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: and say, well, where do you generally work the most 449 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: deaths as in a home as a death investigator, And 450 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: automatically hands will go up and they'll say the bathroom. 451 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: Well it's for a different reason though than this, okay, 452 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: And it's kind of odd Most people don't think about it, 453 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,959 Speaker 1: but you we have something that's referred to actually as 454 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: toilet sign and it's just a term that we use 455 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: because we find that a a lot of people deceased on 456 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: the toilet because one of those leading cause of death 457 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: in America's heart disease, and of course people have m 458 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: eyes or heart attacks and they will have a need 459 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 1: to go to the bathroom. You'll find them deceased on 460 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: the toilet many times. But people do in fact retreat 461 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: to bathrooms. You know, it's seemingly and there's also another 462 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 1: piece to this. I think that many times perpetrators will 463 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: do great harm to people and then to cover their tracks. 464 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: The bathroom is what you refer to as a wet room. Right, 465 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: So what is the best area other than you know, 466 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: running the risk of taking someone outside of a uh, 467 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: free standing dwelling and rinsing the body and the evidence 468 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: off in the yard. The best place you're gonna have protection, 469 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: we have access to water is going to be the bathroom. 470 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: You can put potties and tubs, you can wash your 471 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: hands in the sink, you've got tile floor. Many times 472 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: you think that you can rinse it down. It's not 473 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,959 Speaker 1: gonna suk through through wood or carpet or whatever. So 474 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: it's it's an environment in which I think is a 475 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,479 Speaker 1: natural place for perpetrators to go, and for some reason, 476 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: many times it's a place for people to retreat to. 477 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily know that that was the case in 478 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: Nancy's death. Maybe she had the thought that she could 479 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: put distance between herself and her attacker after she was 480 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: initially attacked in that front room and retreated to the bathroom, 481 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: but she too much harm was done at that point. 482 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: She she couldn't get this guy off of her. I 483 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: will never stop mentioning Edmond Locard on the show. He 484 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: is he is the godfather of all things forensics as 485 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: far as I'm concerned. And of course we go back 486 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: to the Card's exchange principle where he said every not some, 487 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: but every contact leaves a trace. And in this case, 488 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: the one thing that the perpetrator left behind was an 489 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: essence of themselves there at that scene. In that essence, 490 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: of course, was blood. There was lots of blood found 491 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: in this apartment and blood stained towels, whether that was 492 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: from trying to clean themselves up or trying to to 493 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: quell the spread of the blood from the wounds and 494 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: ended up being a wealth of information. It just took 495 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: a long time to figure out the information that they needed. 496 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: Talk to me a little bit about the blood, Joe, 497 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: because what kind of testing does it go through to 498 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: begin with. I'm not even talking about getting to the 499 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: d n A. I'm just talking about in general. Do 500 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: they break it down in some way? Yeah, yeah, they do. 501 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: And so when you begin to think about this with blood, 502 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: and I want our listeners to really understand that because 503 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: you walk away, hopefully every time you listen to body 504 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,719 Speaker 1: bags with a little bit more information. When when we 505 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: go out to a scene, we might see a crusted 506 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: red stain somewhere. Now you might suspect that that's blood, 507 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: but you never say that it is blood, not until 508 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: you can confirm it. And so there's a series of 509 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: testing that's done even to this day. Just because you 510 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: see something red doesn't mean that it's necessarily blood. And 511 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: you know, just because something is another color doesn't mean 512 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: that it's not blood. Let me, let me test what 513 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: I've learned from each other. Yeah, a fresh blood stain 514 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: will be bright red. However, a blood stain that's been 515 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: there for a while as it oxidizes begins to turn 516 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: a darker brown color. Yes, it does, actually right, you did, hey, 517 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: and let me let me give you this is for 518 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: extra credit. Do you recall what happens if you have 519 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: a pool of blood over a period of time, one 520 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: begins to happen. There, I'm not getting any extra credit. Okay, Well, 521 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: what begins to happen is that after blood has been 522 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: pooled for a while on the ground, you'll see the 523 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: red blood cells begin to migrate away from the serum. Wait, wait, 524 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: wait and explain that from the way. Yeah, the blood. 525 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,959 Speaker 1: Blood is not a standalone liquid. It's not like you know, 526 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: you've got water, which, of course water has got two 527 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:05,959 Speaker 1: components hydrogen oxygen. But with blood, it's it has multiple components. 528 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: So as it's not circulating through the body, it will 529 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: separate out into various components. And one of the things 530 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: that you see happen is that the serum, which is clear, 531 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: will begin to separate from the red blood cells, and 532 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: you'll see it and it it migrates away, so you'll 533 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: have this disdain that actually changes color. But to a 534 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,959 Speaker 1: bigger issue here, one of the things that we do 535 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: we have to confirm whether or not something is in 536 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: fact blood. So there's a test you can do in 537 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 1: the field to determine if it is in fact blood, 538 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: because you don't want to waste your time on something 539 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: that's not blood. But you you have to eliminate it, right. 540 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: If it is blood, you have to determine, well, is 541 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: it animal or human? So we then do another test, 542 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: a confirmatory test in that area, and then it's at 543 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: that point that you begin to do blood typing. That's 544 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: kind of where things kind of froze by in nineteen 545 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: seventy two, if you will. And what they determined is 546 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: that the blood that they had at the scene that 547 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: obviously there was a lot of Nancy's blood that was spilled. 548 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: You know, God rest her soul. She went through a 549 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: horrible event here. But they found they found the essence 550 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: of somebody else and that individual happened to be a positive. 551 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: And we know our blood groupings, you know, we've got 552 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: A and B and oh, and then you've got positives 553 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: and negatives and all these sorts of things. But a 554 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: pause is actually the second most frequent blood type. And 555 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: this is kind of how we used to narrow down 556 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: who perpetrated a crime or who we would have interest 557 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: in speaking to. So if it's the second most frequent 558 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: blood type, it doesn't do a lot of good. It 559 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: doesn't help you as much as you would like for it. 560 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: To say, for instance, if you had a B pause 561 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 1: or a B NAG, which tends to be more rare. 562 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: You've got a pause which is the second most frequent, 563 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: which about I don't know thirty four percent of population has. 564 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: But it's a place to start, right And that's what 565 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: you're looking for, because right now you don't have anything, 566 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:14,439 Speaker 1: or the police didn't. And so what I would what 567 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 1: I am I'm just fascinated by in this case, and 568 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: if I could shake their hand, I would do it 569 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: to these to this day, the crime scene investigators that 570 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: were at that scene on that faithful day back in 571 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 1: two they did something that many departments cannot effectively do 572 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 1: even today, and that is the blood evidence that they 573 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: had at that scene, they preserved it. They preserved it 574 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: so that fifty years later, imagine that fifty years later, 575 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: they were able to take a blood sample off of 576 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: a towel that was evidence in arguably one of the 577 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,280 Speaker 1: most brutal homicides up to that point that had taken place. 578 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: And certainly unsolved homicides that have taken place in Honolulu 579 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: at that point in time, and they were able to 580 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,720 Speaker 1: actually get a DNA profile off of this unknown blood sample. 581 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: This this a positive person that was just floating around 582 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: out there that no one knew. Okay, I've got my 583 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: hand up, Professor. I know you can't can see me 584 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: because we're in two separate locations. But how did they 585 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: actually preserve that? In moving a body from the death 586 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: location to the morgue, if there's a suspected murder or attack, 587 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: the hands are covered with paperbag as opposed to plastic because, 588 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,839 Speaker 1: as you've taught me, plastic makes the hand sweat, which 589 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: can change what you're going to be, can change your findings. 590 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,839 Speaker 1: How do you preserve that type of an evidence. A 591 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: towel which number one possibly could be wet because we 592 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 1: know there was water running, is wet from the blood 593 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: in it. So how do you keep it from molding? 594 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: How do you keep it from degrading? How do you 595 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: store it? Well, it has to be dried. And I 596 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: can't speak to what technology they had at the police 597 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 1: department in Honolulu back in nineteen seventy two, but I 598 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: can tell you this if the towel was wet, which 599 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: obviously we know that there was blood on it, so 600 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: it had to be wet. First off, you're right in 601 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: remembering back. We don't put plastic bags on hands because 602 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 1: it makes things sweat. I mean, listen, forensic science is 603 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: not rocket science. We're not going to Mars here. Anybody 604 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: can understand this. It's actually common sense, is what it 605 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,359 Speaker 1: comes down to. If you don't want something to sweat, 606 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: don't put it in plastic. And you have this wet sample, 607 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 1: it has to go into a conveyance like a paper bag, 608 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: just like we put on the hands. I've actually put 609 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: paper bags over heads before because you've got valuable evidence 610 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: that's there and you don't want to make that that 611 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: area around the head sweat with plastic. It's certainly not 612 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,280 Speaker 1: something that you would do. But if you're trying to preserve, 613 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: for instance, firearm evidence, I've had projectiles that are barely 614 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,479 Speaker 1: almost about to fall out of out of the side 615 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: of the head that's just beneath the skin. So I'll 616 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 1: i will not remove it at the scene. You don't 617 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: want to do that, you want to be able to 618 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,399 Speaker 1: document it. I'll put a paper bag over the head, 619 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: and it's the same principle. Even with these towels, they're damp. 620 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 1: So what they would have had to have done is 621 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: take them back in an environment that is conducive to 622 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,839 Speaker 1: dry this item out, because once you dry it out, 623 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: once you dry it out, it's kind of frozen in 624 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: time at that point in time, and then you have 625 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 1: to store it safely so that all of these years later. 626 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: First off, it's not going to degrade to the point 627 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,839 Speaker 1: where you can't get a usable sample off of it, 628 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 1: and it's not going to be exposed to changes in 629 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,760 Speaker 1: relative humidity. You know where it's gonna rise and fall, 630 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: and where it's a predictable environment where you can go 631 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: back and you can actually access this and cut a 632 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: sample out of it and test it, which is eventually 633 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: what has happened in this particular case. They did such 634 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: a fantastic job all those years ago, all these years ago, 635 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 1: where the scientists, the modern scientists, were able to go 636 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: back and snip some of that area because you don't 637 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: want to use all of it, but snip some of 638 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: that sample area and use it and apply modern scientific 639 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: technique to it. And you know, now we have evolved 640 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: to such a point in our technology where we don't 641 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: need as largest sample any longer in order to generate 642 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: a biological or DNA profile on an individually. You know, 643 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 1: we can do smaller and smaller. Now we don't require 644 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: as large large of a sample of blood in order 645 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: to facilitate this, not just blood, but any kind of 646 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,320 Speaker 1: biological sample that we might can harvest DNA front. But 647 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: how would you do it? I mean, if that towel 648 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: is wet with blood, like we know, is it? It's 649 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: not like you're gonna put it in the dryer. I mean, 650 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 1: do you know you say that? You say that, but 651 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: did you know that there are actually forensic evidence dryers 652 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 1: and they're not tumble dryers. These are Yeah, they're they're 653 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: actually glass boxes that are utilized. We have them in morgues, 654 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: they have them at forensic laboratories where you just knocked 655 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: down all of the humidity in the environment and the 656 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 1: thing just dries out. It dries in place, and so 657 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: you can go back once that is preserved and let's 658 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 1: say blood, for instance, it doesn't have that tackiness to 659 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: it any longer. It's actually a dried sample that you 660 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: have there. You can preserve it. It's not going to 661 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: modify it to the point where someone that knows what 662 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: they're doing can't grab a sample off of it. That's 663 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: gonna do a trimming, you know, where they're going to 664 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: go in at a very minuscule section of that sample, 665 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 1: clip some of it out. They can actually produce a 666 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: sample from that that they are able to examine and 667 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 1: to develop a profile out of. And one of the things, 668 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: for instance, that we do at autopsy, we'll take what 669 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 1: are called blood cards. And it's kind of interesting. They 670 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: will reserve at autopsy a tiny blood droplet and it 671 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: will go onto a specially treated card, and that card 672 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 1: is actually filed away and we can hang on to 673 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 1: that blood sample for a protracted period of time, a 674 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: long time. But you know, we're not necessarily talking about 675 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,800 Speaker 1: a card here. We're actually talking about an unknown blood 676 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 1: sample on this towel. Now Here's what's key. They were 677 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,720 Speaker 1: able to preserve enough of it even in the face 678 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 1: of having previously identified Let's don't forget, they previously identified 679 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: this blood droplet as what ab pause at that point, 680 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,879 Speaker 1: so they had already sampled it before way back when 681 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 1: when they sampled every region on that towel, they were 682 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: able to go through it and eliminate Nancy's blood type 683 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: out of there. But somehow they were able to find 684 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: that sample on their way back when sample it and 685 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,879 Speaker 1: type it and come back with ap pause, and they 686 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: saved enough of it after all of these years to 687 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 1: go back and create a DNA profile off of that 688 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,960 Speaker 1: drop of blood. You were talking about being able to 689 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:07,280 Speaker 1: rule people out. We talked earlier about the traveling salesman 690 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: and they were ruled out. They passed a polygraph test 691 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 1: as well as their fingerprints did not match what was 692 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:21,400 Speaker 1: found on the murder scene. So years past storage of 693 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: all this important delicate information that you're talking about, and 694 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 1: technology improves, and all of a sudden, we've got all 695 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,319 Speaker 1: these big words thrown about Joe that I'm gonna let 696 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,399 Speaker 1: you choose which one you want to talk about. We've 697 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:39,240 Speaker 1: got phenotyping, We've got genealogy, we've got the new DNA testing. 698 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,560 Speaker 1: Pick one. Now, let's start. I know I'm gonna pick one. 699 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,319 Speaker 1: Let's start with the phenotyping. What is it and what 700 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,840 Speaker 1: good did it do with the investigation. Well, the phenotyping 701 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,279 Speaker 1: is quite fascinating because you can take a sample of 702 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 1: blood in this case and you can actually begin to 703 00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,880 Speaker 1: run a test in order to develop a snapshot, if 704 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 1: you will, of a probable suspect. And when I say 705 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 1: probable suspect, this is the beauty of it, and it's amazing. 706 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,799 Speaker 1: Can you imagine, you know, five generations ago and maybe 707 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,879 Speaker 1: even four generations go actually telling somebody back in time 708 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 1: that we would be able to do this With the 709 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:23,960 Speaker 1: phenotyping based upon their DNA profile, you can develop a 710 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,719 Speaker 1: pretty good guess about what race the individual is, what 711 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,960 Speaker 1: their hair color is. And in this case, in this 712 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,920 Speaker 1: particular case, they were able to as a result of 713 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:39,320 Speaker 1: this phenotype, determined that the individual at twenty five years 714 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:44,840 Speaker 1: of age would look like an individual with average body 715 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,000 Speaker 1: mass had a b M I. They estimated with the 716 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 1: phenotype of twenty two, which is kind of on the 717 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: you know, average size for an individual. This individual had 718 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 1: fair or very fair skin, and they created a composite 719 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 1: of this individual. Now, how powerful is that when you're 720 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,400 Speaker 1: going back in time as a result of the phenotyping, 721 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,040 Speaker 1: where it leaves behind this kind of fingerprint of what 722 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,279 Speaker 1: the individual would look like, where you can create and 723 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: forensic artists can go in based upon this and create 724 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 1: a template, if you will, of an individual and what 725 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,960 Speaker 1: they might look like with these characteristics. Now, obviously it's 726 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:25,279 Speaker 1: not going to be absolutely dead on spot on this 727 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,360 Speaker 1: individual when you find them, but it's gonna put you 728 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,719 Speaker 1: in the ballpark. And you know, for instance, that out 729 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 1: of this group, and you're gonna look for somebody that 730 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,919 Speaker 1: had fair or very fair skin, that has dark hair, 731 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 1: and is going to be about this size at this 732 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 1: particular age in life. And that person for that moment 733 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 1: when they that droplet of blood was spilled, they're kind 734 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 1: of frozen time at that moment time. And that's absolutely fascinating. 735 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:58,000 Speaker 1: And you take phenotyping, you take phenotyping technology, and you 736 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,920 Speaker 1: marry that up with what eventually brought this case to 737 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,560 Speaker 1: a resolution, and that's forensic genealogy. Let's recap the numbers joke, 738 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,759 Speaker 1: because you were talking about the confidence that could be 739 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 1: gained from this phenotype report. The report said with eight 740 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 1: confidence that the skin color was fair or very fair, 741 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 1: confidence that it was not brown or dark brown skin. 742 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:28,320 Speaker 1: The eye color seven percent confidence that it was brown 743 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: or hazel, seven percent confidence that it was not green, 744 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:38,280 Speaker 1: blue or black. Hair color nine nine point eight percent 745 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,160 Speaker 1: confidence that it was black or brown. And what I 746 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:47,520 Speaker 1: found really fascinating was that even with the phenotyping, they 747 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:53,840 Speaker 1: could determine whether somebody had freckles seven percent confidence that 748 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:59,479 Speaker 1: this person had no freckles. How does phenotyping determine whether 749 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:04,080 Speaker 1: or not you Well, it's it's this unique recipe that 750 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,280 Speaker 1: we have that's given to us vis via our parents 751 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,239 Speaker 1: d n A, the merging of our mother's DNA and 752 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,239 Speaker 1: our father's DNA, that is going to dictate why our 753 00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:20,480 Speaker 1: appearance moving forward, and those probabilities can be estimated essentially 754 00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,400 Speaker 1: based upon what was going on at the time of 755 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,560 Speaker 1: when this individual developed and early on. I mean that 756 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 1: stamp is on us early on in our developmental stages, 757 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,319 Speaker 1: even in the womb, and so that's something that you 758 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:37,560 Speaker 1: carry with you and it's fascinating to me because this 759 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,440 Speaker 1: kind of blueprint that we have now through phenotyping is 760 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:47,720 Speaker 1: something that is changing the way we approach crime scenes 761 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:52,719 Speaker 1: and the way we approach unknown circumstances where some biological 762 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,120 Speaker 1: element has been left behind. It's like almost as if 763 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,239 Speaker 1: nature has given us the playbook, if you will. It's 764 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,400 Speaker 1: literally caused us to leap ahead light years as far 765 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:07,719 Speaker 1: as this technology is concerned. You take phenotyping and you 766 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:13,280 Speaker 1: combine that with the technology of a full on DNA profile, 767 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:17,880 Speaker 1: and you begin to look at familial connections where you 768 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,800 Speaker 1: know you have someone that has taken, say their DNA 769 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: and submitted it into an open source database for the 770 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:29,359 Speaker 1: purposes of genealogical study, where they're trying to determine who 771 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 1: their ancestors were, their points of origin, and only sorts 772 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,200 Speaker 1: of things, who they're related to. All of these and 773 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,439 Speaker 1: once you start to hit on those peripheral areas where 774 00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,080 Speaker 1: if you have an individual that might have a third 775 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,400 Speaker 1: or fourth cousin out there that has submitted a sample, 776 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,200 Speaker 1: say a buckle Newcoastal swab that's gotten from inside of 777 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 1: the mouth from the gum line, and they've submitted it, 778 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,960 Speaker 1: or maybe they've spitten a little tube and they've sent 779 00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,719 Speaker 1: this off to be examined. Suddenly you've got a whole 780 00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:58,920 Speaker 1: new world that opens up to you, because if you've 781 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,640 Speaker 1: got an unknown in the case of Nancy Anderson, we 782 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:06,399 Speaker 1: have an unknown suspect here, the individual that we think 783 00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,120 Speaker 1: was probably involved in it, because we've got this blood 784 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:13,440 Speaker 1: sample from way back then, all of a sudden that 785 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,520 Speaker 1: that was very, very fuzzy for a long long time, 786 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:21,120 Speaker 1: suddenly comes into focus. And in this case, that happened 787 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,239 Speaker 1: all the way across the board. It's it's almost like 788 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:30,040 Speaker 1: Nancy's case intersected with science at the right time, where 789 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 1: they were able to pin an individual down regarding their 790 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:40,160 Speaker 1: DNA makeup their genealogical profile. And boy did it pay off. 791 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:46,160 Speaker 1: It did. The link here came from, as you said, genealogy, 792 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,399 Speaker 1: and the link was found to be a son. Yeah, 793 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,840 Speaker 1: you're right, Jackie, it was the son. You know, you 794 00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,120 Speaker 1: you know, when they began to look at the DNA 795 00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 1: profile that they had, they saw that through forensic genealogy 796 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,600 Speaker 1: they had a third or fourth cousin out here. They 797 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:07,399 Speaker 1: begin to do this study relative to the probability would 798 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:12,640 Speaker 1: be and once you have that information, you can begin 799 00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 1: mathematically to narrow this thing down to a very fine 800 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,799 Speaker 1: point where you can go back and look for what 801 00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,840 Speaker 1: are referred to as common ancestors. You know, if you 802 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,120 Speaker 1: have cousins, that means that you've got aunts and uncles 803 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,560 Speaker 1: that are connected. And then you take that narrow it 804 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,520 Speaker 1: down even further to where you have not just aunts 805 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,920 Speaker 1: and uncles now now you have brothers and sisters. And 806 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,520 Speaker 1: when you begin to narrow it down to brothers and sisters. 807 00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,200 Speaker 1: It come down to mom and daddy, And in this 808 00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:46,200 Speaker 1: particular case, they were able to narrow this down so 809 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,719 Speaker 1: tightly that they zeroed in on this one young man 810 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,200 Speaker 1: and the authorities actually went to his home and said, 811 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,480 Speaker 1: we'd like to get a DNA sample from you. And 812 00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,680 Speaker 1: of course the rationale was is that they believed that 813 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,040 Speaker 1: this young man's father could potentially be the suspect they've 814 00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:07,200 Speaker 1: been looking for for fifty years. That suspect ended up 815 00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:11,720 Speaker 1: being tutor to RelA, a former attorney living in Reno. 816 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,320 Speaker 1: It was discovered that at the time he was living 817 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,239 Speaker 1: in Hawaii in the nineties seventies, and he was a 818 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:22,600 Speaker 1: University of Hawaii grad assistant. And you begin to think about, 819 00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:24,719 Speaker 1: you know, those old tomes that we go back to 820 00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:28,440 Speaker 1: in investigations where we think about, you know, motive and 821 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:33,200 Speaker 1: opportunity and accessibility and and you know, all of those 822 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,040 Speaker 1: sorts of things that kind of, you know, play into this. 823 00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:38,600 Speaker 1: At this point, we don't know what a motive would 824 00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:43,560 Speaker 1: have been, and the police believe that this individual was 825 00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:49,400 Speaker 1: involved in Nancy's homicide. And I think in this particular case, 826 00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:54,600 Speaker 1: what happened was that the perpetrator actually sliced their hand 827 00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:59,520 Speaker 1: or cut a finger, and as this occurred, there's a 828 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 1: natural roll inclination to grab the closest thing you can, 829 00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:08,399 Speaker 1: in this case a towel and stem the bleeding. And 830 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,640 Speaker 1: that's what he did. He took that towel, placed it 831 00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:16,440 Speaker 1: around his hand in order to stop the bleeding. And 832 00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,160 Speaker 1: when he did that, he sealed his fate. He transferred 833 00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,800 Speaker 1: that droplet of blood to that towel that was preserved 834 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,600 Speaker 1: after all those years, and ultimately that provided them with 835 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:31,040 Speaker 1: a DNA profile. Rilla has been charged in Nancy Anderson's murder. 836 00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:38,120 Speaker 1: This case has not yet gone to trial. I'm Joseph 837 00:50:38,160 --> 00:51:01,520 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body bags