WEBVTT - Patty Griffin 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:22.476 Pushkin. When Patty Griffin released a Crown of Roses earlier 0:00:22.476 --> 0:00:26.676 this year, she delivered something both timeless and urgent. It's 0:00:26.716 --> 0:00:29.196 an album that draws on gospel, folk and soul to 0:00:29.236 --> 0:00:33.476 explore themes of faith, doubt, and resilience. It's a return 0:00:33.516 --> 0:00:36.236 to the stripped down intimacy of her earliest work, but 0:00:36.316 --> 0:00:38.436 with the wisdom and craft of an artist who spent 0:00:38.556 --> 0:00:42.996 nearly three decades refining her voice. That voice first emerged 0:00:43.036 --> 0:00:46.076 in nineteen ninety six with Living with Ghosts, recorded on 0:00:46.116 --> 0:00:48.956 a simple four track in her Bosson apartment. The album 0:00:48.996 --> 0:00:53.316 introduced a songwriter who could turn personal pain into something universal. 0:00:53.916 --> 0:00:56.756 Over the years that followed, Griffin's songs have been covered 0:00:56.796 --> 0:01:00.476 by everyone from The Chicks to Solomon Burke, while her 0:01:00.516 --> 0:01:03.516 own recordings have earned her multiple Grammy nominations and a 0:01:03.556 --> 0:01:08.636 reputation as a songwriter songwriter. On today's episode, Bruce Sedlam 0:01:08.636 --> 0:01:11.556 talks to pay Patty Griffin about the inspiration behind Crown 0:01:11.596 --> 0:01:15.116 of Roses and how grit has shaped her songwriting throughout 0:01:15.116 --> 0:01:18.516 her career. They also discussed her early days in Boston's 0:01:18.556 --> 0:01:20.836 folks Seeing and the stories behind some of her most 0:01:20.876 --> 0:01:24.316 well known songs. She also reflects on how finally getting 0:01:24.356 --> 0:01:26.156 to know her mother at the end of her life 0:01:26.316 --> 0:01:28.756 inspired her to see her mother's story in a whole 0:01:28.796 --> 0:01:40.476 new light. This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations. 0:01:41.276 --> 0:01:43.116 Here's Bruce Headlam with Patty Griffin. 0:01:44.836 --> 0:01:46.436 So, Patty Griffin, thank you so much. 0:01:46.796 --> 0:01:47.716 Thanks for having me. 0:01:48.476 --> 0:01:51.516 I was looking this up. Your first album came out 0:01:51.836 --> 0:01:53.196 twenty nine years ago. 0:01:53.636 --> 0:01:54.116 Is that right? 0:01:54.236 --> 0:01:58.196 Twenty nine years ago? And I, well, I can't think 0:01:58.196 --> 0:02:02.476 of a better songwriter over that period of time. Thank you. Wow, 0:02:03.036 --> 0:02:04.196 maybe somebody else did. 0:02:05.956 --> 0:02:06.436 Thank you? 0:02:06.836 --> 0:02:10.276 Okay, Well I can't so go over your list later. 0:02:10.876 --> 0:02:13.836 But my list starts with you. And you've got a 0:02:13.876 --> 0:02:16.076 new album called Crown of Roses. 0:02:16.396 --> 0:02:16.676 Yep. 0:02:17.436 --> 0:02:20.156 Can you talk a little bit about what you were 0:02:20.196 --> 0:02:22.956 thinking going into this album? What led up to you 0:02:22.996 --> 0:02:23.796 doing this album? 0:02:24.716 --> 0:02:27.836 This album, there's a lot going on in my life 0:02:27.876 --> 0:02:31.316 for the last ten years. It just sort of tumultuous years, 0:02:31.356 --> 0:02:34.156 and tumultuous in the way that everything just kind of 0:02:34.156 --> 0:02:37.036 turned upside down. But it doesn't look very exciting from 0:02:37.036 --> 0:02:39.316 the outside. You know, this is all kinds of stuff 0:02:39.316 --> 0:02:43.596 you've got to work with that's new and different and harder. 0:02:43.716 --> 0:02:46.716 And my mom is passing away in this period of time, 0:02:46.836 --> 0:02:51.876 and so she's in there. I think I'm probably hitting 0:02:51.876 --> 0:02:54.116 a lot of my old themes with this record, but 0:02:54.156 --> 0:02:57.196 it's just my older person's take on it. 0:02:57.276 --> 0:02:59.116 You know, how's your take changed. 0:03:00.396 --> 0:03:04.836 I don't need hope to be hopeful. Does that make 0:03:04.876 --> 0:03:07.836 any sense at all? I feel like just the opposite 0:03:07.836 --> 0:03:11.596 of that set up and makes me feel like like 0:03:11.756 --> 0:03:13.556 knowing that you're going to struggle, things are going to 0:03:13.596 --> 0:03:15.836 be hard, and that that's just part of being human 0:03:15.836 --> 0:03:18.556 and you're not going to escape that, and you know, 0:03:19.316 --> 0:03:22.716 sort of just getting that in my bones has been 0:03:23.316 --> 0:03:25.676 a really great part of my life because I think 0:03:25.676 --> 0:03:28.556 it's you get to be a little more free, you 0:03:28.556 --> 0:03:32.116 stop striving for certain things that are you know, you 0:03:32.156 --> 0:03:35.996 sort of automatically strive for if you're born in the West. 0:03:36.316 --> 0:03:40.636 So it's a little apocalyptic this album, is it? Yeah, 0:03:40.996 --> 0:03:45.196 You've got well in the sense that the apocalypse is 0:03:45.276 --> 0:03:47.836 also kind of a new beginning. And the first song 0:03:47.996 --> 0:03:52.276 is yeah back at the start, you have birds disappearing, 0:03:52.316 --> 0:03:58.916 you have songs called the end. It's really a I'll 0:03:58.916 --> 0:04:02.196 be mixing my metaphors to say it's a baptism by fire, 0:04:02.356 --> 0:04:04.596 but there is a sense of a lot of things 0:04:04.716 --> 0:04:07.916 ending and things starting in this record. 0:04:08.956 --> 0:04:11.876 I think that's sort of the world is in a 0:04:11.916 --> 0:04:14.036 phase like that, So it makes a lot of sense 0:04:14.036 --> 0:04:16.436 that I would be personally in a phase like that, 0:04:16.676 --> 0:04:20.636 just being a person that somebody lives on the world, 0:04:21.196 --> 0:04:23.516 you know what I mean. I think that we're all 0:04:23.556 --> 0:04:26.796 experiencing that kind of change right now. The animals in 0:04:28.356 --> 0:04:31.356 the bottom of the sea of the plants are under siege, 0:04:31.476 --> 0:04:36.156 and it makes sense that I would also be experiencing 0:04:36.436 --> 0:04:37.236 things that way. 0:04:38.116 --> 0:04:40.836 You sent a note to Ken Weinstein, whom you work with, 0:04:41.476 --> 0:04:44.796 something to the effect that so much of your work 0:04:44.836 --> 0:04:47.756 has been focused on men and trying to understand them, right, 0:04:49.076 --> 0:04:52.396 and this is the first time on record you've spent 0:04:52.436 --> 0:04:55.356 a lot of time telling women's stories. Yeah, what do 0:04:55.396 --> 0:04:56.196 you think prompted that? 0:04:57.276 --> 0:05:00.156 I got a lot more interested in women's stories through 0:05:00.956 --> 0:05:02.956 hanging out with my mom? I think that just sort 0:05:02.996 --> 0:05:06.916 of naturally happened. And getting to know my mother was 0:05:06.996 --> 0:05:12.756 like discovering the amazing creature that had been there all 0:05:12.796 --> 0:05:16.156 along that didn't know how to come out because she 0:05:16.236 --> 0:05:20.596 you know, women, especially from her generation, they just kind 0:05:20.596 --> 0:05:24.756 of got passed over for their own understanding of how 0:05:24.876 --> 0:05:29.916 of their contributions and their power was really you know, 0:05:30.076 --> 0:05:35.156 just undervalued, I would say, And getting to know my mom, 0:05:36.316 --> 0:05:39.796 I realized she's a badass. She was a badass, and 0:05:39.916 --> 0:05:46.396 she was so smart and funny and tough as shit, 0:05:46.716 --> 0:05:49.956 you know, and stronger than anybody had ever really met. 0:05:50.596 --> 0:05:53.916 She grew up in poverty, she put herself through college, 0:05:55.076 --> 0:05:58.196 She got married in the fifties and went straight into 0:05:58.236 --> 0:06:02.116 having seven babies in seven years and stayed pregnant for 0:06:02.196 --> 0:06:06.036 seven years, and then was just overwhelmed with that for 0:06:06.116 --> 0:06:08.916 a long time. And I think, you know that the 0:06:09.356 --> 0:06:12.236 fine tuning motherhood thing never happened with me because I 0:06:12.276 --> 0:06:14.356 was number seven, you know what I mean. So just 0:06:14.516 --> 0:06:16.516 was easy for me to sort of drift off and 0:06:17.036 --> 0:06:19.276 do my thing and not really worry about my mother 0:06:19.516 --> 0:06:21.796 at the end, because I feel like the bond is 0:06:21.836 --> 0:06:26.076 not what other people have necessary with their mothers, And so, 0:06:26.476 --> 0:06:29.516 you know, getting to know her in the last few years, 0:06:29.556 --> 0:06:33.516 it really kind of just I think I grew as 0:06:33.516 --> 0:06:37.996 a woman. I just understood how great it was to 0:06:38.036 --> 0:06:38.596 be a woman. 0:06:39.156 --> 0:06:39.356 You know. 0:06:39.556 --> 0:06:41.436 It was just something about connecting with her, and I 0:06:41.436 --> 0:06:44.396 don't even know what that is exactly, I can't pinpoint it. 0:06:44.676 --> 0:06:47.156 But she had a tough she had kids, she wanted 0:06:47.196 --> 0:06:47.996 to go on in school. 0:06:48.076 --> 0:06:50.436 Was that right, Well, I guess when she met my 0:06:50.516 --> 0:06:53.236 dad she had been working on a master's degree. And 0:06:53.276 --> 0:06:56.076 I only bring that up because we never heard that 0:06:56.236 --> 0:06:59.836 at all until the last few years, Like, she never 0:06:59.876 --> 0:07:00.756 even brought it up. 0:07:01.076 --> 0:07:03.636 So what was home like for you growing up? 0:07:05.276 --> 0:07:08.276 It was very crowded. It sat on the floor a lot. 0:07:09.316 --> 0:07:12.236 We had to crawl under the dinner table to get 0:07:12.276 --> 0:07:14.036 to our seats if you were one of the smaller 0:07:14.116 --> 0:07:17.556 kids in the family. Not a lot of money. But 0:07:17.596 --> 0:07:22.276 we grew up like right next to the woods. And 0:07:22.316 --> 0:07:24.636 my mom grew up her father worked in the woods, 0:07:24.676 --> 0:07:27.316 and that was like you know, many many, many, many 0:07:27.356 --> 0:07:31.196 generations of French settlers that worked in the woods. So 0:07:31.676 --> 0:07:36.756 you just mentioned right, yes, And she's very connected to nature. 0:07:36.916 --> 0:07:39.156 So like we just learned all the birds songs, and 0:07:39.636 --> 0:07:41.916 learned all the names of the flowers, and learned all 0:07:41.956 --> 0:07:44.516 the trees, and you know, we were just really it 0:07:44.596 --> 0:07:47.356 was just part of how we lived. I didn't really 0:07:47.396 --> 0:07:52.236 think of it as anything particularly special until I got 0:07:52.276 --> 0:07:54.596 older and I realized that a lot of that stuff's 0:07:54.636 --> 0:07:55.076 gone away. 0:07:55.116 --> 0:07:59.196 For a lot of people and also gave you ideas 0:07:59.196 --> 0:08:01.236 for thirty years of songs, I think because there's so 0:08:01.316 --> 0:08:05.156 much nature in your yeah, yeah writing, yeah, including and 0:08:05.236 --> 0:08:08.116 we'll get to the new album as well. So when 0:08:08.156 --> 0:08:10.516 did music enter your life when you were a kid? 0:08:12.076 --> 0:08:16.196 Well, my mother's voice. She comes from a family of 0:08:16.676 --> 0:08:20.756 people that knew how to sing, and my father they 0:08:20.796 --> 0:08:26.396 didn't have a particularly musical trained, formal musical life. My 0:08:26.436 --> 0:08:31.036 father's the son of like Irish people, and so there's 0:08:31.076 --> 0:08:35.236 definitely that thing in there for him too. But she 0:08:35.436 --> 0:08:38.516 always had a voice that was just buttery and beautiful. 0:08:38.996 --> 0:08:41.836 I remember, like some of my earliest memories are her 0:08:41.956 --> 0:08:46.036 standing in a doorway where there are four bunk beds in. 0:08:46.076 --> 0:08:48.516 My sisters and I were all in them, and she 0:08:48.596 --> 0:08:50.676 was singing, and it was like magical. 0:08:51.076 --> 0:08:52.236 Would she sing you to sleep? 0:08:52.636 --> 0:08:56.556 Yeah? She sang, you know, hymns and like in French. 0:08:56.636 --> 0:08:59.556 She that was her first language. So we heard those 0:09:00.276 --> 0:09:02.196 old things that she got when she was a kid. 0:09:03.116 --> 0:09:06.356 And did you have music through the Catholic church as 0:09:06.396 --> 0:09:06.836 well or. 0:09:06.836 --> 0:09:10.316 Is that not a Well yeah, that wasn't as interesting 0:09:10.356 --> 0:09:13.916 to me at the time as my mom. I didn't 0:09:13.916 --> 0:09:17.956 recognize like I remember realizing at one point that not 0:09:18.076 --> 0:09:21.356 everybody's mom sang like that. You know, I was a 0:09:21.396 --> 0:09:25.636 lot older. Oh wow, you know what, I wouldn't be 0:09:25.676 --> 0:09:28.476 singing if it weren't for hearing her voice. 0:09:28.516 --> 0:09:30.596 Did she ever teach you songs? 0:09:31.036 --> 0:09:34.596 Uh? Yeah, well we would make up songs together when 0:09:34.636 --> 0:09:35.356 I was really little. 0:09:35.476 --> 0:09:39.076 Yeah, so when did you start? What was your first instrument? 0:09:40.596 --> 0:09:43.876 My first instrument was the flute because it was the 0:09:43.916 --> 0:09:48.356 one the instrument that was available in the elementary school band. 0:09:48.876 --> 0:09:51.516 Yeah, it was good old days where they would just 0:09:51.556 --> 0:09:54.436 send students into a room and say, just pick up something. 0:09:54.956 --> 0:09:55.276 I think. 0:09:55.316 --> 0:09:55.476 You know. 0:09:55.636 --> 0:09:58.676 My sister had one. It's so accusing, that's what it was. 0:09:58.356 --> 0:10:01.516 She actually wanted to play the flute, and she had 0:10:01.796 --> 0:10:05.076 borrowed one or something from the high school. And so 0:10:05.156 --> 0:10:09.916 I decided to try my hand at it. And I 0:10:09.956 --> 0:10:13.036 could make it sing, you know, but it just didn't 0:10:13.076 --> 0:10:17.036 have enough variety of sound to a flute. 0:10:17.356 --> 0:10:18.876 So when did the guitar start? 0:10:20.236 --> 0:10:23.316 When I was a teenager, I bought a Honer guitar 0:10:23.916 --> 0:10:27.436 for like half of my savings account, which was probably 0:10:27.476 --> 0:10:29.036 one hundred dollars and uh. 0:10:29.556 --> 0:10:31.916 Was it at a local music store mail order Yeah. 0:10:31.996 --> 0:10:34.436 It was a local music store the next town over 0:10:34.476 --> 0:10:38.156 from where I grew up in Bangor, Maine, and I 0:10:38.196 --> 0:10:42.236 met a guitar teacher there and started taking lessons, and 0:10:42.396 --> 0:10:44.556 I just wanted to I knew I wanted to sing. 0:10:44.636 --> 0:10:46.876 That was really where I went to after the flute 0:10:46.956 --> 0:10:49.516 I couldn't get. I wanted a saxophone. It was not 0:10:49.556 --> 0:10:53.116 going to happen. They were none available, too expensive, and 0:10:53.196 --> 0:10:55.436 so because I thought that had the kind of tones 0:10:55.596 --> 0:10:58.476 that it would feel really good. So I just tried 0:10:58.476 --> 0:11:01.116 to train my voice to have more of those tones, 0:11:01.476 --> 0:11:05.956 you know, starting at a pretty young age, started just 0:11:06.116 --> 0:11:07.916 sitting inside my closet and singing. 0:11:08.356 --> 0:11:09.756 You know, but you want to He wanted to have 0:11:09.796 --> 0:11:10.716 an instrument, but. 0:11:10.716 --> 0:11:13.676 I needed an instrument to write songs too with it. 0:11:13.796 --> 0:11:18.476 And so I practiced the guitar as much as I could, 0:11:18.516 --> 0:11:20.316 you know, as one of those guitars where the strings 0:11:20.316 --> 0:11:22.596 are about an inch off of the neck, you know. 0:11:22.676 --> 0:11:26.236 It really hurt your fingers, get really strong hands. Yeah, 0:11:26.236 --> 0:11:28.836 we listening to radio at this point. Was there any 0:11:28.996 --> 0:11:31.436 what music was coming in that sort of fed that 0:11:32.516 --> 0:11:32.796 got it? 0:11:32.876 --> 0:11:35.556 The music was great all the way through growing up. 0:11:35.636 --> 0:11:38.476 I mean we I just looked at who was out 0:11:38.476 --> 0:11:40.916 there singing, and I can't believe how lucky I was, 0:11:41.516 --> 0:11:43.996 just starting with like motown on the radio, and I 0:11:44.036 --> 0:11:47.876 was a really little you know, Smokey Robinson, and you know, 0:11:47.956 --> 0:11:49.716 that was what I was really into. And I was 0:11:49.836 --> 0:11:55.916 small and music with voices, with beautiful voices and interesting lyrics. 0:11:56.116 --> 0:11:59.756 And then I sort of moved on to the Beatles, 0:11:59.836 --> 0:12:04.356 and you know, after they broke up and Ricky Lee 0:12:04.436 --> 0:12:06.876 Jones made her way into that mix. You know, at 0:12:06.916 --> 0:12:08.916 some point when I was a teenager, and there's a 0:12:09.396 --> 0:12:11.996 list of them, you know, it would take me a 0:12:12.036 --> 0:12:13.236 long time to name them all. 0:12:13.436 --> 0:12:16.436 Now, did you think this would be a career for you? 0:12:16.516 --> 0:12:18.276 Did you? Was there part of you that thought, no, 0:12:18.436 --> 0:12:19.556 music's going to be my life. 0:12:20.916 --> 0:12:24.636 I remember being really little and thinking, having a very 0:12:24.636 --> 0:12:27.796 direct thought, what I love to do more than anything 0:12:27.916 --> 0:12:31.916 is sing and also write poems. I wrote poetry when 0:12:31.916 --> 0:12:36.516 I was really little, and I thought, maybe there's something there, 0:12:36.836 --> 0:12:39.756 you know, And I went after the singing. Because I 0:12:39.756 --> 0:12:43.756 don't have a naturally powerful voice. I have to exercise it, 0:12:43.876 --> 0:12:46.396 you know, train like an athlete with my voice to 0:12:46.796 --> 0:12:47.436 get it to work. 0:12:47.516 --> 0:12:49.676 I always think of you as like sort of being 0:12:49.676 --> 0:12:52.436 a powerhouse. I think particularly your first album. 0:12:53.116 --> 0:12:55.836 Yeah, that was just being in really good. It was 0:12:55.876 --> 0:12:58.596 just tuned up, you know. I built it that way. 0:12:58.756 --> 0:13:01.996 So you had what people consider a late start. You 0:13:01.996 --> 0:13:04.636 were in your thirties. I think, Yeah, your first album 0:13:04.676 --> 0:13:06.956 came that is late start. How long had you been 0:13:06.996 --> 0:13:08.796 singing before your first album came out. 0:13:09.236 --> 0:13:13.636 I'd been working on singing all through my life, you know, 0:13:13.916 --> 0:13:17.196 and taking time to sing with certain singers on records. 0:13:17.236 --> 0:13:20.796 And I was in love with Whitney Houston because she 0:13:20.916 --> 0:13:22.876 was like, she's like my age. I got to see 0:13:22.916 --> 0:13:26.716 her when she was twenty one years old in Boston 0:13:26.756 --> 0:13:30.436 Common and it was like magic, you know, the voice 0:13:30.516 --> 0:13:32.996 coming out of her. And there's just so many great 0:13:32.996 --> 0:13:36.596 singers to study and learn different things from, and Aretha 0:13:36.636 --> 0:13:40.876 Franklin and Edna James and you know, the great singers 0:13:40.956 --> 0:13:43.556 like that. I studied a lot when I was younger 0:13:43.716 --> 0:13:47.476 and Patsy Kline. I just wanted to strengthen my voice 0:13:47.476 --> 0:13:50.036 and just nothing made me feel better than that in 0:13:50.076 --> 0:13:54.076 my whole life. So the stronger it got, the more 0:13:54.116 --> 0:13:56.116 it flowed, the more I could do with it, the 0:13:56.796 --> 0:13:58.356 better I felt in the world. 0:13:58.756 --> 0:14:00.876 When was the first time you went out on stage. 0:14:02.316 --> 0:14:06.476 The first time I was still in high school. I 0:14:06.516 --> 0:14:10.156 think my guitar teacher. He was playing at a ramata 0:14:10.236 --> 0:14:13.476 inn in Bangor, Maine, and I got up and I 0:14:13.516 --> 0:14:15.116 did chuck, he's in love with him? 0:14:15.356 --> 0:14:18.556 Yeah, uh huh so okay, yeah? And then when did 0:14:18.636 --> 0:14:19.836 you start doing it solo? 0:14:21.396 --> 0:14:28.036 Not until my later twenties. It was really hard for 0:14:28.076 --> 0:14:30.036 me to do that, you know good. I went to 0:14:30.116 --> 0:14:32.876 an open mic night and because I was just so 0:14:32.956 --> 0:14:34.196 afraid of saying it. 0:14:34.316 --> 0:14:35.236 What was this in Boston? 0:14:35.396 --> 0:14:35.676 Yeah? 0:14:35.796 --> 0:14:37.436 What did you tell yourself to be able to get 0:14:37.476 --> 0:14:38.196 up there and do that? 0:14:38.556 --> 0:14:41.756 Well? I had a guitar teacher that another guitar teacher 0:14:41.796 --> 0:14:45.436 that I would show up at, you know, a guitar lesson. 0:14:45.476 --> 0:14:48.716 I'd play him a new song. You go, that's really great, 0:14:48.716 --> 0:14:50.956 you should get gigs, and then I go. But I 0:14:50.996 --> 0:14:53.836 really wanted him to come with me, and so I 0:14:53.876 --> 0:14:56.836 finally wore him down and he did so he kind 0:14:56.836 --> 0:15:00.516 of launched the duo with me with a duo, and 0:15:00.556 --> 0:15:03.876 then I just started doing it on my own after 0:15:03.916 --> 0:15:06.476 a while. John Curtis was his name. 0:15:06.636 --> 0:15:08.756 You must have been doing something right. You got scouted 0:15:08.876 --> 0:15:13.436 fair soon after you were you started playing, yeah, and 0:15:13.476 --> 0:15:14.476 signed a record deal. 0:15:15.836 --> 0:15:19.716 Well, I had been playing, and then at a certain point, 0:15:19.756 --> 0:15:22.716 I feel like the songwriting kind of kicked in. Like, 0:15:22.796 --> 0:15:26.436 you know, you're just sort of practicing, practicing, practicing, you're 0:15:26.676 --> 0:15:28.756 you know, like you go to art school and you 0:15:28.956 --> 0:15:30.956 learn how to paint. You do these things over and 0:15:30.956 --> 0:15:34.156 over and over and over again, and suddenly something comes 0:15:34.196 --> 0:15:36.236 into the painting. You know. It's sort of like that's 0:15:36.276 --> 0:15:39.796 how it was with the music. I felt like I 0:15:39.916 --> 0:15:44.236 wasn't I was starting to understand how these songs that 0:15:44.316 --> 0:15:47.316 I really loved might have occurred. 0:15:47.756 --> 0:15:48.836 You mean other people's songs. 0:15:48.956 --> 0:15:49.156 Yeah. 0:15:49.196 --> 0:15:51.356 I always go back to Tears of a Clown. It's 0:15:51.396 --> 0:15:54.836 like a miraculous song, which was co written with Stevie 0:15:54.916 --> 0:15:58.676 Wonder actually and Smoke Your RUMs and but there's like 0:15:58.756 --> 0:16:03.756 such a way that that flows melodically and then lyrically 0:16:04.236 --> 0:16:08.076 it's magical as well. I mean, it's a painting, it's 0:16:08.116 --> 0:16:12.756 a beautiful painting. Like how the hell do people do that? 0:16:12.956 --> 0:16:14.916 You know what I mean? And I don't really know 0:16:14.956 --> 0:16:18.996 how you do that, but I understand how something can 0:16:19.236 --> 0:16:21.996 just kind of come out of you, right, you know, 0:16:22.196 --> 0:16:24.796 and it just for me, it just took years and 0:16:24.876 --> 0:16:28.356 years and years of going through the motions of and 0:16:28.476 --> 0:16:30.956 you know, trying and you know, trying and trying and trying, 0:16:30.996 --> 0:16:34.156 and then it just kind of started they started showing up. 0:16:34.476 --> 0:16:36.396 Now, well you I'm fascinated by this. Would you try 0:16:36.396 --> 0:16:39.116 and break down that song? Like, what does the melody 0:16:39.156 --> 0:16:41.636 do here? Wasn't anything formal like that? 0:16:41.996 --> 0:16:44.196 No, No, I do a little bit of that now. 0:16:44.276 --> 0:16:46.276 I mean now I listened to Tears of the Clown 0:16:46.396 --> 0:16:50.196 for example, probably one of my favorite songs. I'm blown 0:16:50.236 --> 0:16:53.956 away by the structure. You just can't believe how incredible 0:16:54.156 --> 0:16:57.476 the choices are for melody, and and it just kind 0:16:57.476 --> 0:16:59.796 of probably came out of them like that. You know, 0:17:00.076 --> 0:17:02.396 they just probably now it goes here, and now it 0:17:02.436 --> 0:17:04.956 goes here, and now the words say this, and you know, 0:17:05.076 --> 0:17:08.676 it's just I would love to know how that was 0:17:08.756 --> 0:17:10.316 when they wrote that song. 0:17:11.436 --> 0:17:13.956 We'll be back with more from Patty Griffin after the break. 0:17:18.476 --> 0:17:21.356 Now, thinking about your first album, your first song is 0:17:21.476 --> 0:17:25.676 on that album as Moses, And immediately when people hear that, 0:17:26.636 --> 0:17:29.836 you start on a suspended chord? Did you study theory? 0:17:29.876 --> 0:17:32.716 Did you know that? But it's got a it's got 0:17:32.716 --> 0:17:36.716 a very particular I mean, it showcases your voice, but 0:17:36.796 --> 0:17:38.316 you're not starting on a chord tone. 0:17:38.996 --> 0:17:43.036 Yeah, I think there's a lot. Probably one of the 0:17:43.076 --> 0:17:45.676 good things is that I don't know a lot of 0:17:45.676 --> 0:17:48.276 what I'm doing, so I end up doing things Buddy 0:17:48.276 --> 0:17:51.756 Miller once said to me. Great. Buddy Miller said, Patty, 0:17:51.796 --> 0:17:54.596 I love watching you play guitar because everything you do 0:17:54.636 --> 0:17:57.276 is so wrong and it gives me all kinds of 0:17:57.316 --> 0:18:03.396 great idea. And I'm like, Okay, that's that's that's a compliment. 0:18:03.476 --> 0:18:05.916 I think it's a high compliment. Actually, okay, I. 0:18:05.956 --> 0:18:07.636 Think I think you know a little more than you're 0:18:07.876 --> 0:18:08.316 letting on. 0:18:08.476 --> 0:18:11.596 I think I really don't. I really don't. I can 0:18:11.636 --> 0:18:14.676 find a G, I can find an E, I can 0:18:14.676 --> 0:18:16.516 find an F and an A, and you know what 0:18:16.556 --> 0:18:19.316 I mean. I just but as far as the theory goes, 0:18:19.396 --> 0:18:22.836 I'm just always like hunt and peck on that stuff. 0:18:22.956 --> 0:18:27.196 But you're often finding those those tones, those notes that 0:18:27.276 --> 0:18:30.076 aren't in the chord, that like really color the chord. 0:18:30.716 --> 0:18:33.836 And it's literally the first note you sang on that 0:18:34.316 --> 0:18:37.396 on that record. It's just so powerful. I didn't know 0:18:37.476 --> 0:18:38.436 that you didn't. 0:18:38.596 --> 0:18:43.356 No, I think it's neat you. Well, I mean my mother. 0:18:43.516 --> 0:18:47.596 Actually back to my mom explained to me that when 0:18:47.636 --> 0:18:50.356 I was younger and she would be singing, that I 0:18:50.356 --> 0:18:54.156 would automatically find harmonies to her voice when I would 0:18:54.156 --> 0:18:56.516 sing with her, which I didn't know I was doing, 0:18:56.756 --> 0:19:00.916 but apparently apparently I did. So I love to dig around. 0:19:00.956 --> 0:19:03.276 I love to fish around and find my own harmonies. 0:19:03.836 --> 0:19:07.356 I'm not too crazy about doing like classic harmonies because 0:19:07.676 --> 0:19:09.556 you know, you have to stick to stick to one 0:19:09.596 --> 0:19:12.316 little line and you know you're over here and you 0:19:12.396 --> 0:19:14.596 stay there on the fourth, you know the fifth, And 0:19:15.476 --> 0:19:18.436 I'm not as good at that. I don't enjoy it 0:19:18.436 --> 0:19:20.876 as much. And it's also studied and you have to 0:19:20.876 --> 0:19:23.596 be able to I really don't have an understanding of 0:19:23.636 --> 0:19:26.556 how one would even go about learning that. 0:19:27.156 --> 0:19:29.236 Okay, what was it like for you? And I'm going 0:19:29.316 --> 0:19:32.836 to jump ahead, because you sang with Emilu Harris, you 0:19:32.876 --> 0:19:37.836 sing Trapez what was because she is the gold standard 0:19:37.956 --> 0:19:41.196 for duet singing. What was that like? 0:19:42.076 --> 0:19:44.236 Well, I know by then I'd known Emmy for a 0:19:44.316 --> 0:19:46.756 really long time and we'd already sung on a bunch 0:19:46.796 --> 0:19:50.236 of the others things, So it was just like having 0:19:50.396 --> 0:19:52.316 my buddy come to the studio. 0:19:51.956 --> 0:19:54.436 And sing so as natural. 0:19:54.756 --> 0:19:57.276 Yeah, you just like, you know, just let her go. 0:19:57.676 --> 0:20:00.636 She does her thing and just let her roll back 0:20:00.676 --> 0:20:03.156 when she wants to roll back and do things over. 0:20:03.636 --> 0:20:05.996 You know, just let her do her thing. She really 0:20:06.116 --> 0:20:09.956 she has an idea of what she wants to wants 0:20:09.956 --> 0:20:12.316 it to be. I think she's feeling her way through it. 0:20:13.596 --> 0:20:14.236 You just let her. 0:20:14.436 --> 0:20:16.396 Yeah, okay, stay out of her way. 0:20:16.836 --> 0:20:19.716 That first album, you did a whole produced album, and 0:20:19.796 --> 0:20:21.636 I think with Nile Rogers, the producer. 0:20:22.316 --> 0:20:25.556 No. Well, I did a project with Nile Rogers here 0:20:25.596 --> 0:20:30.836 in the nineties which went absolutely nowhere. He had a 0:20:30.876 --> 0:20:34.396 record label for like two minutes called ear Candy. He 0:20:34.476 --> 0:20:38.516 wanted me to make records for that label, and I 0:20:38.596 --> 0:20:41.916 was just in way over my head and I was 0:20:41.956 --> 0:20:45.516 not prepared to work with someone of his kind of 0:20:45.796 --> 0:20:48.756 technical caliber, and I didn't we didn't know how to 0:20:48.756 --> 0:20:51.716 communicate in the studio with each other, and so that 0:20:52.116 --> 0:20:54.516 didn't go very well. But then I made a record 0:20:54.556 --> 0:20:58.516 with Malcolm Burn, who is you know from that whole 0:20:58.556 --> 0:21:04.716 New Orleans Danny Lenwill Mark Howard Camp and that was, 0:21:05.156 --> 0:21:08.036 you know, trial by fire. That was really like I 0:21:08.076 --> 0:21:10.716 don't know what I'm doing either, and I'm like living 0:21:10.756 --> 0:21:13.316 in a studio in New Orleans for a month with 0:21:13.396 --> 0:21:16.076 all these people, and by the time that record was 0:21:16.076 --> 0:21:20.316 finished and mixed, my record company had had it. They 0:21:20.316 --> 0:21:23.076 didn't like any of the things that he did. And 0:21:24.316 --> 0:21:26.716 that wasn't really crazy about it either, because I had 0:21:26.756 --> 0:21:30.316 been so tired and confused making the record the whole time. 0:21:30.996 --> 0:21:33.036