Speaker 1: Class Action is a production of I Heart Radio and
Speaker 1: Sound Argument. M H. I think this is the cord
Speaker 1: um So. I've been in some of these before, so
Speaker 1: high So eleven is one of the courts. So like,
Speaker 1: I'm a misdemeanor like intern, like for all of the
Speaker 1: clerk for all of the courts. It's scary, like you're
Speaker 1: walking into this big machine like this is like the machine,
Speaker 1: like this is our justice machine, and it's really intimidating.
Speaker 1: You don't know anyone. You know, you don't know what
Speaker 1: your rule is going to be. You don't know how
Speaker 1: they're going to use you. You Yeah, you just don't
Speaker 1: know anything or anyone or like you know, are the
Speaker 1: ad is intimidating? Are thing nice? Well? They like you
Speaker 1: where they give you where you know, you don't know anything.
Speaker 1: Um So the first day was like all about figuring
Speaker 1: out all of that stuff as well as can I
Speaker 1: leave for lunch? Where's the bathroom? Like yeah, it was
Speaker 1: really really intimidating. Um So I have all of the
Speaker 1: misdemeanor courts and so like it's like fourteen of them,
Speaker 1: fifteen of them, so you know, um if one of
Speaker 1: the ads is like, oh, we're going to trial, on
Speaker 1: the stage and we come, I'll go to trial and
Speaker 1: fourteen for all being like picturing with them or whatever.
Speaker 1: So it's pretty cool, Okay. I think it's this way.
Speaker 1: Rock to to seven five. The State of Texas versus
Speaker 1: to Day is March thirty. Yesterday we has lending jury
Speaker 1: swarming again and then then whether the rain. Less than
Speaker 1: a month after their run to the National Championships stalled
Speaker 1: at the one yard line, X teammates Andy Viscia and
Speaker 1: Jasmine ole Gaene are about to face off in an
Speaker 1: actual criminal trial at the Bear County Courthouse in San Antonio.
Speaker 1: It's a misdemeanor case. Andy will be second chairing for
Speaker 1: the d a's office and Jasmine will be in a
Speaker 1: similar role with her defense firm, and to up the stakes,
Speaker 1: the defense team's lead attorney is none other than Jason Goss,
Speaker 1: their former coach from the St. Mary's Trial team. I'm
Speaker 1: just really proud, you know. It's kind of like going
Speaker 1: against a child, or's something where you know you're proud
Speaker 1: of him, but you're also trying to beat him. Um,
Speaker 1: and I do want to beat them because I think
Speaker 1: it's justice for my client. It's I mean, it's so cool.
Speaker 1: I mean, I just I want to be just like him.
Speaker 1: It's it's crazy, it's so cool to see him. On
Speaker 1: the other hand, I didn't know we're going to be
Speaker 1: going in directly, had ahead, but you know, somewhat I was.
Speaker 1: I was nervous. I couldn't you breakfast, I had to
Speaker 1: drink tea. I wasn't I didn't crack a Celsius until
Speaker 1: until later on in the day when I had calmed down.
Speaker 1: And it's like, you stand and deliver, you don't care
Speaker 1: who's on the other side. I'm feeling excited, for sure,
Speaker 1: interested to see how the rest of this case plays out.
Speaker 1: But as of now, I feel like my heart is
Speaker 1: like kind of like in a little like a little
Speaker 1: fire in my heart because of this. Because everything we've
Speaker 1: been hearing and seeing, it's so like upsetting that we're
Speaker 1: here trying this case and didn't. Even more bizarre twist,
Speaker 1: Jason's wife and fellow trial team coach Maritza Steward, She's
Speaker 1: going to supervise Andy during the trial. It's pretty amazing
Speaker 1: thing to do because it's it's funny, it's what we've
Speaker 1: been you know, we hope to see and we've always
Speaker 1: said that that's one of our things that we're proud
Speaker 1: of that any of our students can go you know,
Speaker 1: if they worked with us and you know, committed to
Speaker 1: the program, they learned the ideals at a j and
Speaker 1: you know, Coach Goss and I, you know, try and teach.
Speaker 1: So it's student versus student, student versus teacher, husband versus wife.
Speaker 1: What more could you possibly want? This is episode eleven
Speaker 1: of Class Action. First thing I would inquire is why
Speaker 1: do you want to become a lawyer? Yes? Why do
Speaker 1: you want to be a lawyer? The idea that I,
Speaker 1: at twenty three years old, can walk into a courtroom
Speaker 1: next year and run it front to back better than
Speaker 1: some of these people that have been practicing for ten
Speaker 1: twenty years. I'm like, that's insane to me. I like
Speaker 1: the puzzle. You are given a set of facts and
Speaker 1: you have to make those facts work with what your
Speaker 1: client wants. And it doesn't matter if your client is
Speaker 1: the state, it doesn't matter if your client is an actual,
Speaker 1: living human being in front of you. They have something
Speaker 1: that they want and your job as an attorney is
Speaker 1: to make sure whatever given situation can work out for them.
Speaker 1: You do become a different version of yourself, because no
Speaker 1: one would want that in there every day. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have any friends. I've always kind of likened it to
Speaker 1: My mom was an absolute maniac about our table manners
Speaker 1: when we were growing up. But she wanted to make
Speaker 1: sure that when I went to that nice dinner, I
Speaker 1: exuded confidence because I knew that I could, I could
Speaker 1: hang with the you know, with the big kids kind
Speaker 1: of thing. It's the same way I know I know
Speaker 1: what I'm doing, just as much as I know I'm
Speaker 1: picking up the right fork for the right meal kind
Speaker 1: of thing. That's future lawyers Hayley Nichols, Dylan Ramsdad Spoils
Speaker 1: and Brooke Bomb Gardner and two seven a summary of
Speaker 1: this case. In twenty nineteen, the San Antonio Police were
Speaker 1: called to a scene at four am on the west
Speaker 1: side of town, not far from the St. Mary's campus.
Speaker 1: The complaint was coded as a disturbance neighbor gun involved.
Speaker 1: For privacy, we're going to remove the names of the
Speaker 1: persons in this case. Is he the one Yarlet's calling
Speaker 1: on dy And? When Officer Garcia arrived on the scene,
Speaker 1: she found a crowd gathered around victim who was lying
Speaker 1: on the ground. Half in some bushes and half on
Speaker 1: the sidewalk. Okay, did you just have a seizures? That's
Speaker 1: what's what's going on. Or the victim we'll call him Boris,
Speaker 1: was staring into space and had bumps and contusions on
Speaker 1: his face. Okay, yeah, you may want to spit your
Speaker 1: tooth out. No, you don't choke on it. And you
Speaker 1: didn't see any of this, right, sir, I'm sorry you
Speaker 1: didn't see any of this. Alright. This is Boris's husband.
Speaker 1: He's also an eye witness, well sort of, but you
Speaker 1: didn't see anything. I thought him beating him up. Okay,
Speaker 1: who's who's them? So I bet the three guys, all
Speaker 1: three of them, well, I saw all three of them coovery,
Speaker 1: because it's all happened so fast that I was like
Speaker 1: freaking out. Okay, all right, so have a good night.
Speaker 1: Boris came around and told Officer Garcia that his neighbor,
Speaker 1: a man will call Carlos, was sitting in his car
Speaker 1: with a bunch of guys playing his stereo at high
Speaker 1: volume at four o'clock in the morning music top blow.
Speaker 1: It's completely can make sure that his off our whole neighborhood.
Speaker 1: They do every day I understand why. Forest then told
Speaker 1: Officer Garcia that he approached the car and knocked on
Speaker 1: the window and the next thing, you know, he didn't
Speaker 1: punching me. I was letting low and he was continuously
Speaker 1: punching you do you know? Do you know which one?
Speaker 1: And w do you want to come talk to me?
Speaker 1: Lecture the third? This is Carlos's nephew who was in
Speaker 1: the front passenger seat. So what's going on? What happened
Speaker 1: all of a sudden? Yes, it's like, I mean, I
Speaker 1: didn't think the music is still all. To be honest,
Speaker 1: we had a fairly low because we at one point
Speaker 1: he comes up to the chuck bops, okay, and then
Speaker 1: that's what he pulled the gun. He's like, you needn't
Speaker 1: turn it, Connor. What's the gun? He was? It was
Speaker 1: romish kind of gun. I guess he pulled it out
Speaker 1: from the sign. He's like, you turn the music down now,
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Okay, But you didn't really explain how
Speaker 1: he ended up on the ground and everything. So how
Speaker 1: did that? What did that happen? At? How we have
Speaker 1: so nicely to leave him pushed him, you know, not
Speaker 1: too hard though, just enough to get him off our property,
Speaker 1: trying to push him back. Didn't by any chance did
Speaker 1: did you hit him or anything like that? All right?
Speaker 1: What about uncle? Right? What about her uncle him or
Speaker 1: anything like that? All right, we're self defense. But but
Speaker 1: I'm not going to deny that we didn't. Yes, yes
Speaker 1: or no. I'm not gonna lie to you, guys. I
Speaker 1: mean I did that. I didn't assault that ba I
Speaker 1: don't want any trouble them. Yeah, fortunately tonight, buddy, it's
Speaker 1: gonna have to go down like this. But uh, what
Speaker 1: madis moils is what happens after this and hopefully are
Speaker 1: never in handcuffs ever again. All Right, I didn't assaulting
Speaker 1: tool at all? How do I prove like this? Or
Speaker 1: you're spitting teeth out of his mouth, but look at
Speaker 1: my hands. If you're spining teeth out of his mouth,
Speaker 1: my hands would be cut. There's still cuts on my hands.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, yeah, we don't either, buddy. We're just
Speaker 1: trying to do our job and I don't just trying
Speaker 1: to have a good time on a Friday. I understand.
Speaker 1: All right, Just sit tight or I'll turn on the
Speaker 1: acing for you. I'm sorry. Carlos was ultimately charged with
Speaker 1: assault with bodily injury. It should be pointed out here
Speaker 1: that normally a misdemeanor case like this would almost never
Speaker 1: make it to trial. But this is America, and if
Speaker 1: you've been listening to this podcast all along, you know
Speaker 1: we are all about half the constitutional right to a
Speaker 1: fair hearing. Facing potential jail time, Carlos bonded out and
Speaker 1: decided to seek defense counsel, and here he turned to
Speaker 1: Jason Goss and Jasmine ole Gain to defend him at trial,
Speaker 1: but this time against her former teammate. I know her responses.
Speaker 1: I know the way she thinks. You know she knows
Speaker 1: the way I think. Like we both have the same
Speaker 1: little senses, like if we hear certain questions or responses,
Speaker 1: like we're trained by the same coach, Like both of
Speaker 1: our senses start like tingling or like okay, this, this
Speaker 1: is this is this, and like with objections, like I
Speaker 1: I know she's gonna object to and like what she's
Speaker 1: feeling and stuff like that. So maybe like not advantage,
Speaker 1: but like I know her and I think her coach
Speaker 1: knows her too. The dynamic between counsel is interesting. Now
Speaker 1: for some perspective on this whole becoming a lawyer thing.
Speaker 1: Here's pre Barra. Counterintuitively, my experience has been that prosecutors
Speaker 1: and defense lawyers are much more cordial and friendly. Some
Speaker 1: become quite good friends. And part of the reason is
Speaker 1: there's a lot of stake in a criminal case, and
Speaker 1: the most professional defense lawyers and prosecutors, they're not taking
Speaker 1: it as personally. You know, it's it's not personal. It's business.
Speaker 1: To quote from the Godfather. Sometimes someone's a jerk, like
Speaker 1: they're There are jerks in every profession, and there are
Speaker 1: jerks at trial sometimes, and then you have to be
Speaker 1: careful not to let your temper get the better of you,
Speaker 1: and you treat everyone with respect in the court room
Speaker 1: and certainly in front of the jury, because the don't
Speaker 1: know what's gone on behind the scenes. Another peculiar question
Speaker 1: arises for defense lawyers in criminal cases who may have
Speaker 1: a long relationship with the prosecutors. They may have been colleagues.
Speaker 1: You know, people become prosecutors defense lawyers to go back
Speaker 1: and forth. That's the case with Jason Goss. He was
Speaker 1: an assistant DA in this very courthouse for ten yours
Speaker 1: before switching sides, so he's on very familiar ground here.
Speaker 1: Back to the case at hand. A six member juries
Speaker 1: and paneled and Judge Carlo Rodriguez Key is en robed.
Speaker 1: I think if everyone's first trial could be this difficult
Speaker 1: and uh, this convoluted um, and they could still get
Speaker 1: through with everything else after, that's going to seem fairly easy.
Speaker 1: So it's a great introduction into how tough things can be.
Speaker 1: And here we are a trial which begs the question, well,
Speaker 1: let's start with why do we need trials? Ashley Email
Speaker 1: is a Texas lawyer who runs the National Trial Competition
Speaker 1: and apparently she's also an amateur legal historian. So, for
Speaker 1: those of you who don't know, trials before they were
Speaker 1: in a courtroom were by duel and if you died,
Speaker 1: you were the one lying. That's how that was decided. Um.
Speaker 1: So then we got to trials, and maybe that was
Speaker 1: a little more fair, maybe not. Maybe it was just
Speaker 1: one person shouting this is what happened, and a judge
Speaker 1: that I believe you. And so then we got rules
Speaker 1: of evidence, and this is how we sort of make
Speaker 1: sure that our trial system is working the way that
Speaker 1: it should. Obviously it is not perfect. I don't think
Speaker 1: any person would ever try to tell you that the
Speaker 1: our justice system is perfect, but I think it's the
Speaker 1: best system we've got for trying to make sure that
Speaker 1: anybody accused of something has a fair shot for defending
Speaker 1: themselves with a lawyer who knows how this system works,
Speaker 1: I'm not shaking my boots. Can I win? Probably no,
Speaker 1: Probably not on my first one. If I'll be honest,
Speaker 1: i'd be. I'd be very shocked, which just sucks, because
Speaker 1: I do believe this was an assault. I can't it alone,
Speaker 1: and it'd be it'd be thinking very high with myself
Speaker 1: to think that I would be able to do this
Speaker 1: on my first try. When you're working a real trial,
Speaker 1: it becomes your life for many months, sometimes for a
Speaker 1: year or more. From the moment you charge a case,
Speaker 1: or even from the moment you start investigating a case,
Speaker 1: there's always a little voice in the back of your
Speaker 1: head thinking how is this going to play at trial?
Speaker 1: What am I gonna do at trial? And then when
Speaker 1: you're actually on trial those two weeks or six weeks
Speaker 1: or four months or whatever it may be, you I
Speaker 1: didn't eat, I didn't sleep. I used to lose pounds
Speaker 1: when I was on trial. I don't have that much
Speaker 1: to lose. Um it was incredibly stressful and difficult. And
Speaker 1: then at the end um cathartic. This is Elijenig, former
Speaker 1: prosecutor in New York Southern District and a legal analyst
Speaker 1: at CNN. He knows that when a prosecutor like Andy
Speaker 1: has handed a brief, she'll have a lot of questions.
Speaker 1: So two things about about that. First of all, prosecutors
Speaker 1: rely on what we call an order of proof, and
Speaker 1: it's basically like not quite a script, but it's just
Speaker 1: a listing of all your pieces of evidence from exhibit
Speaker 1: one through exhibit four teen hundred um. And you learned
Speaker 1: to use that as an outline and a guide to
Speaker 1: your case. But I want to say this about evidence.
Speaker 1: There's a misnomer out there, or misperception that more is better. Oh,
Speaker 1: a mountain of evidence that phrase right. Oh, Look, they
Speaker 1: have huge amounts of evidence that can really backfire. It's
Speaker 1: not about quantity of evidence, it's about quality of evidence.
Speaker 1: I learned that the hard way. There was really two
Speaker 1: different approaches to evidence. We used to say at the
Speaker 1: Southern District. There was the kitchen sinkers, the people who
Speaker 1: wanted to throw in everything they had, and then there
Speaker 1: was the thin two winners, which I became the first
Speaker 1: mob trial I ever did. I was the junior person
Speaker 1: of three on the case, and the guys who ran
Speaker 1: it were kitchen sinkers. And we did this trial that
Speaker 1: took two months, and we had hundreds and hundreds of exhibits.
Speaker 1: We played the jury I think ninety or ninety five
Speaker 1: different recordings that we had a cooperator who had made
Speaker 1: and that case ended up going bad. We had a
Speaker 1: couple of the defendants were acquitted. We had a couple
Speaker 1: of defendants where the jury hung, so we got to
Speaker 1: retry those two defendants where the jury long A year
Speaker 1: or so later, by this point I was leading it.
Speaker 1: We said, okay, we're cutting out all the fluff. We're
Speaker 1: going with our strongest evidence. We went from recordings down
Speaker 1: to twelve. We got that. Instead of a two month trial,
Speaker 1: we did it in a week and a half. For
Speaker 1: two weeks jury came back convicted. Like that. For this trial,
Speaker 1: it seems like Jason Goss is more of a kitchen sinker.
Speaker 1: He's dug up all sorts of apparent shenanigans on the
Speaker 1: part of the d a's office. First off, the nine
Speaker 1: on one tape was destroyed by the d a's Office,
Speaker 1: unclear why. In second, the victim, Boris, was previously convicted
Speaker 1: on a domestic violence charge involving his husband. That conviction
Speaker 1: was later overturned and the records were destroyed by the
Speaker 1: d a's office, which Jason argues is tantamount to a
Speaker 1: Brady violation, essentially accusing the state of withholding exculpatory evidence
Speaker 1: from the defense. And for us, we believe that this
Speaker 1: guy has been railroaded all the way through and we
Speaker 1: want the jury to see that at the end. Since
Speaker 1: I wasn't at the trial, I do hesitate to characterize
Speaker 1: this as a smoke screen, but I can imagine this
Speaker 1: is going directly over the heads of the young prosecution team.
Speaker 1: The one thing that's always looking forward to on the
Speaker 1: fens is like, this is the kind of stuff I
Speaker 1: try to get into. When I was a prosecutor, the
Speaker 1: judge went always protect the defendant and say no, no, no,
Speaker 1: be kicking. But in this case, you know, I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm not you know what I'm getting. You don't
Speaker 1: keep that damn what the prosecution thinks about you or
Speaker 1: even the judge. Tony Sarah has seen it all before.
Speaker 1: He's eighty seven, a West Coast trial legend and stalwart
Speaker 1: defense attorney. I just finished a murder trial in Janose.
Speaker 1: It took about three months. Came back satisfactory that I
Speaker 1: got a trial separate November seventh. It's another attempted murder
Speaker 1: on a police officers life. So I do controversial cases,
Speaker 1: and I um defend people who ordinarily are overlooked or
Speaker 1: marginalized in the legal system. I've been fighting, you know, racism.
Speaker 1: I've been fighting what would call over zelvous prosecutions all
Speaker 1: of my career. So I tell the young lawyers, it's
Speaker 1: a fabulous calling, but you have to regard it as
Speaker 1: a calling. It's a fabulous mission that you're going to
Speaker 1: embark on, but you have to regard it as a mission.
Speaker 1: If you regard it as a job and that you're
Speaker 1: going to serve the interest mostly of corporations, then you're
Speaker 1: feeding into the status quo. Uh you say, knocked his team,
Speaker 1: not to I'm conscious and I'm here just siding that not.
Speaker 1: The golpening statements are among the most important parts of
Speaker 1: a trial. It's your first impression on the jury, so
Speaker 1: you need to begin with credibility. I was really fortunate.
Speaker 1: When I was starting out in the office of the
Speaker 1: Federal Public Defender in l A. This is noted defense
Speaker 1: attorney Laura Basilon, who runs a law clinic for racial
Speaker 1: justice in San Francisco. I had a supervisor. He said,
Speaker 1: those eleven seconds, you'll never get them back. And he
Speaker 1: also said that a lot of lawyers really don't do
Speaker 1: opening statement justice. That they stand up and say an
Speaker 1: opening statement, these are the elements of the offense. These
Speaker 1: are how I'm going to prove the elements of the offense.
Speaker 1: And the jury goes to sleep. But if you stand
Speaker 1: up and you have one sentence that crystallizes your case,
Speaker 1: and you're saying it in this passionate way, then all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you have twelve pairs of eyes that
Speaker 1: are focused on you. There is and so I want
Speaker 1: to talk to you about what actually happened, and what
Speaker 1: the evidence is going to prove happening, and how the
Speaker 1: world on September seven nine team turned upside down because
Speaker 1: the one thing that she did. You've got to take
Speaker 1: over the court. You've got to dominate. Your personality has
Speaker 1: to be the strongest, Your contact with the jury has
Speaker 1: to be, you know, formidable. Andy gets a shot at
Speaker 1: doing the first direct examination of a witness for us
Speaker 1: his husband, right, but true to life, the guy has
Speaker 1: a hearing problem and the microphones in the courtroom aren't working,
Speaker 1: and well it's a modern day trial by fire trying
Speaker 1: to have a bit of hearing problems and just for everyone,
Speaker 1: wait to see that one. Alright up, can you hear?
Speaker 1: Just watch? Sorry, it's a real jury. Um. I think
Speaker 1: it's similar in a lot of ways, but it's also
Speaker 1: I mean it's different in a lot of ways. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, I have to remember little things that I
Speaker 1: wouldn't have to remember in mock right, Like I'm making
Speaker 1: out contact with all of them. Are you following me?
Speaker 1: How do I look to them? One of the hardest
Speaker 1: things to do, particularly early on, is keep the poker face.
Speaker 1: There's nothing more important than the poker face. Jurors are
Speaker 1: looking at the lawyers at their tables and going back
Speaker 1: and forth, often from the person on the witness stand
Speaker 1: to the lawyer at the table, to see if they're
Speaker 1: reacting poorly something. We don't have a guestion both her
Speaker 1: and I question him close to him, and we can
Speaker 1: discuestion the jury and see how kind of like that
Speaker 1: idea that you want to right. So a jura might
Speaker 1: hear a witness say something like, oh, that sounds like
Speaker 1: it's harmful to the prosecution, and look and see did
Speaker 1: the prosecution flinch? Are they passing notes because they might
Speaker 1: not know because they haven't connected all the things together.
Speaker 1: You know the case better than any juror will ever
Speaker 1: know the case. Good. Would you again to the members
Speaker 1: of the jury, would you introduce yourself? And then to
Speaker 1: the members of the jury okay, okay, and whole shape
Speaker 1: speer voice, would you please introduce yourself again to the
Speaker 1: members of the jury. I tend to have a lot
Speaker 1: of emotional reactions that show themselves in my face, and
Speaker 1: so I've had to train myself to to not to
Speaker 1: not do that. And I think the other thing I've
Speaker 1: had to do is look less stern, because unfortunately, that
Speaker 1: kind of expression, particularly in women, is off putting. It's funny.
Speaker 1: I've always been told by my supervisors that you need
Speaker 1: to smile more, Laura, and I'm like, there's nothing to
Speaker 1: smile about here. This is a very high stakes, very
Speaker 1: grim situation. The walls are weeping carrying out perfect all right,
Speaker 1: Would you introduce yourself more time. It's not a smiley faced,
Speaker 1: cheerleading time. At the same time, I do think there
Speaker 1: are occasional moments of levity and that it's good to
Speaker 1: look like someone who people can in some way relate to. Uh,
Speaker 1: did you see him at you know, appressively punched the car,
Speaker 1: was doing anything aggressive that you could see for your porch? Okay?
Speaker 1: And then you said that you saw him leave right
Speaker 1: when he left, and do you know what we want
Speaker 1: just after people? Okay, didn't look like from where you
Speaker 1: were standing, did it look like he was trying to
Speaker 1: trust us onto your property. Well, like you're trying to
Speaker 1: bring me to their home side in their house. Okay,
Speaker 1: so we know someone window, that's what you see? After that?
Speaker 1: What do you see? Ah, I'll do that. I've done
Speaker 1: many trials in front of fake treat But so it's
Speaker 1: just kind of it's a weird duality that exists right now.
Speaker 1: And so I'm you know, I'm not trying to make
Speaker 1: excuses for myself, and I don't want to ever do
Speaker 1: that to her, because she's right, I do know better.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I'm I'm still learning and
Speaker 1: I'll continue to be keep learning. So I just taking
Speaker 1: everything that's stride. At any point, did you see your
Speaker 1: husband pull a gun? Did you see a gun at
Speaker 1: all that night? Extreme me and I I'm talking to gun.
Speaker 1: I've always been god. You know I've never allowed okay,
Speaker 1: but you know you're aware that your husband does own
Speaker 1: a gun. Yeah, Christian, okay, So let me get it right.
Speaker 1: Turn the music down. Started walking to the dog. They
Speaker 1: rolled up the window. They started blasting the music. He
Speaker 1: finished along with the dog. He brought the dog inside,
Speaker 1: went back over to them and told him turn the
Speaker 1: music down. A good defense attorney like Jason Goss, he's
Speaker 1: going to pick apart a fuzzy head of witness like
Speaker 1: this while on cross that's what you testify that based
Speaker 1: on what you saw. There's no reason to call the
Speaker 1: cops on you based upon what you could see that
Speaker 1: and you don't want him to go to jail. Your husband,
Speaker 1: that one. He's obviously he's this group of people is
Speaker 1: said he would agree with that. I don't know, there's
Speaker 1: no question. Obviously they're upset. He said that they're yelling
Speaker 1: at this ring. I've been confrontational all my life. I
Speaker 1: have a dear friend that it was in college All
Speaker 1: American Football for Oklahoma. And when I have done cases
Speaker 1: with him, and it's as if if he doesn't get
Speaker 1: the answer he wants, he's gonna walk up and slug
Speaker 1: it with his fists. And he would just stand up
Speaker 1: there like he had a stick in his hand, you know,
Speaker 1: or some kind of a baseball bat, and he was
Speaker 1: be slugging this witness. If he didn't tell the truth that,
Speaker 1: I was going, Oh boy, that's guy's good. I want
Speaker 1: to be like that. First asked you, she said you
Speaker 1: didn't see him. Then she said no, I saw nothing.
Speaker 1: You heard yourself say that, yes, And you also said
Speaker 1: I was in bed and I heard my dogs running.
Speaker 1: That's what you said at the police office. You testified
Speaker 1: to the jury that you were in your office, but
Speaker 1: you told the officer you were in bed. Okay, scare
Speaker 1: him into telling the truth, you know, confront them, shake
Speaker 1: your finger in their face when you think you're lying.
Speaker 1: In every single jury trial, there will be something to
Speaker 1: go after that is untrue coming from the prosecution. Their
Speaker 1: witnesses frequently are tainted. You know, they have a history.
Speaker 1: They have been impeaqued so many times. So what I
Speaker 1: tell young lawyers, just the most important thing about being
Speaker 1: a trawler. You gotta know everything. You've got to read
Speaker 1: every bit of discovery. If your mind isn't good enough
Speaker 1: to retain in it and try another profession. So you
Speaker 1: cannot even tell us right now that your memory of
Speaker 1: something five minutes after it happened was better than your
Speaker 1: memory of something too and a half Africa of his
Speaker 1: ability and all sustaining as events. Thanks for us, well,
Speaker 1: you said, I'm just feeling I don't know, I'm it's weird.
Speaker 1: I'm feeling like my skills were good, but I there's
Speaker 1: a lot of things to this case, and I think substantively,
Speaker 1: I think I'm beating feeling a little defeated, um, just
Speaker 1: because I mean, you really, you know, we we pre
Speaker 1: trialed our witnesses, you know, and you really never know
Speaker 1: what they're going to act like on the stand, and
Speaker 1: you can tell them a million times like this is
Speaker 1: what you need to do, you know, just yes or no,
Speaker 1: Just answer my questions yes or no and cross, you know,
Speaker 1: and you never know how they're going to react. I mean,
Speaker 1: and it was and you can now I see the
Speaker 1: practicality of it that it's like it'll blow up your case.
Speaker 1: You said, you do not remember seeing the police at all,
Speaker 1: not at all when seeing yourself on their body ever,
Speaker 1: seeking the help the refreshmtory about what you said that
Speaker 1: you know, he walks around this place and throughout the
Speaker 1: day like all of these little prosecutors were coming into
Speaker 1: trial and they weren't coming in to see us. They're
Speaker 1: coming in and see him because you know how kid
Speaker 1: he is. So I mean it just, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: so cool and obviously it would be so much cooler
Speaker 1: if he wasn't on the other side, can quank you
Speaker 1: to see my own work, just to say your day? Okay, um,
Speaker 1: I'm saying okay, and how are we gonna do that?
Speaker 1: A little little later on in the day, patrol Officer
Speaker 1: Garcia is called to the stand. In their questioning prosecutors
Speaker 1: Andy and Cassidy are courteous and respectful of law enforcement. Okay,
Speaker 1: so when you were violency, he had give us free
Speaker 1: description of what was going on. Yes, So once I
Speaker 1: went unseen, basically I saw a small crowd of people
Speaker 1: over a male on the ground. Um. So obviously as
Speaker 1: an officer and wind intent. They wrap up Officer Garcia's
Speaker 1: testimony pretty quickly, but then Jason Goss comes back to
Speaker 1: his objection about the immissibility of Boris's criminal background and
Speaker 1: his husband's history of lying to the police. Officer Garcia
Speaker 1: steps down from the stand. The jury is excused and
Speaker 1: Gass and the judge argued case law and legal precedent
Speaker 1: for an hour. People idea that this witnesses. The VAS
Speaker 1: office believed that this witness did not solve and didn't
Speaker 1: call this person as a witness, and they drone on
Speaker 1: and on and on, and then the day is done.
Speaker 1: Round one goes to the defense. Um, we baked out
Speaker 1: of the courtroom and I was like, I feel like
Speaker 1: you ever feel like you've been in a boxing match
Speaker 1: with the person that taught you how to box? It's
Speaker 1: like not, yeah, I mean it's a lot. You know,
Speaker 1: you want to decompress and you're like, okay, but there's
Speaker 1: still a really long way to go in this trial,
Speaker 1: which is crazy because it's a missing mirror. I don't
Speaker 1: know it's a missed me now, but it is. You know,
Speaker 1: I really don't know what I envisioned myself as in
Speaker 1: being a lawyer, because with my last two summers of working,
Speaker 1: it's just you're constantly changing on how you approach things,
Speaker 1: and so I don't really think I don't know who
Speaker 1: I am as a lawyer for maybe ten years into practice.
Speaker 1: It takes ten years to be comfortable doing what you're doing.
Speaker 1: But I would like to be my goal of what
Speaker 1: i'd like to be an a lawyer, someone who is
Speaker 1: um very patient, because it does take a lot of
Speaker 1: patients and time to work with people. In general, I think,
Speaker 1: no matter what career you go into, and I would
Speaker 1: like to base someone who has answers. I want to
Speaker 1: be a lawyer where someone's comfortable saying, we know we
Speaker 1: can go to Bailey. She's going to solve whatever issue
Speaker 1: I have. So that's that's my goal. So what's happening
Speaker 1: now in DA's offices, especially Brooklyn, is it's not just
Speaker 1: what happens with a perpetrator in a case is not
Speaker 1: solely dependent on the charges they're facing or the victims
Speaker 1: preference in what happens. If we also have to take
Speaker 1: into account what will help the defendant, how can we
Speaker 1: prevent this from happening again? What will do justice for
Speaker 1: the defendant the victim while keeping public safety in mind.
Speaker 1: I do work for prisoners legal Services as my externship.
Speaker 1: It'll be going on three semesters now, and my clients
Speaker 1: have committed very egregious crimes there So, in a sense,
Speaker 1: you know, I am, I am making the choice to
Speaker 1: advocate for someone who has committed murder, who has committed rape,
Speaker 1: and who has made the choice to do something consciously
Speaker 1: that is quite a terrible offense. But in that case,
Speaker 1: their constitutional rights have still been violated. And so I
Speaker 1: do believe that although this person has made a decision,
Speaker 1: that doesn't negate the government's responsibility to grant them their
Speaker 1: constitutional rights. That was Bailey more It, Phoebe Medicare and
Speaker 1: Ellie Sands. The next day, Officer Garcia has to wait
Speaker 1: another hour while the defense continues to argue about the
Speaker 1: old conviction. The judge has had enough and resolves the
Speaker 1: issue and puts it on the record for any future appeal. Okayna. Finally,
Speaker 1: Officer Garcia is recalled to the stand for her cross examination,
Speaker 1: and she'll sit in that witness chair for the next
Speaker 1: four hours while her every move and motivation will be
Speaker 1: picked apart by Jason Goss. I understand, I watch. What
Speaker 1: we're really trying to point out is there's a difference
Speaker 1: between what I hear what actually had and you have
Speaker 1: training about how to deal with people who have done?
Speaker 1: Have you been when you went to the police, had
Speaker 1: me Otherwise? What would you agree with your investigation solely
Speaker 1: focused on, maybe owing to their inexperience or simple exhaustion.
Speaker 1: The prosecution had very few objections. I think most people
Speaker 1: would agree with me that you don't back down from
Speaker 1: a case. If I if when you're a prosecutor, I
Speaker 1: would think when I'm a prosecutor that I have a
Speaker 1: case that I really believe in and that I want
Speaker 1: to bring to trial. Um, I don't think i'd back
Speaker 1: down just because I you know, counsels big and scary
Speaker 1: and so good, right, which is why you know, we
Speaker 1: were like, wow, this is weird, but it's really cool
Speaker 1: seenior coach, Like he really is such an icon for
Speaker 1: us because his presence, the way he gets things out.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm just really happy to be here
Speaker 1: and just everything he's been saying, it's like my heart,
Speaker 1: like little Brady thing. I was like, heart, heart, Heart,
Speaker 1: Is there one good words? Farmer? When we introduce yourself
Speaker 1: remembers the drum. I wanted the jury to get to
Speaker 1: know you little bit. So where do you live? How
Speaker 1: long have you lived there? Um? Fifty years except for
Speaker 1: a couple of years when I went off to the college.
Speaker 1: On day three, Jasmine, who had been sitting quietly taking
Speaker 1: notes and strategizing with Jason, she gets her chance to
Speaker 1: do a short direct of a key witness for the defense.
Speaker 1: Have you ever had a problem with the playing any
Speaker 1: music since I moved in? Have you been able to
Speaker 1: interact with them? Yes? Have you been able to see
Speaker 1: their interactions with other neibors? Have you been able to
Speaker 1: see them interact with each other? Yes? In these five years?
Speaker 1: Do you have enough experience to be able to form
Speaker 1: an opinion on so? Do you have an opinion on
Speaker 1: the character for violence? I believe he's problems of violence.
Speaker 1: Do you have an opinion on character for untruthfulness? I
Speaker 1: don't believe him to be trustworthy Because we have some Yes,
Speaker 1: And just like that, the case for the prosecution is
Speaker 1: on the rocks and Jason Goss is on deck. Yesterday, Um,
Speaker 1: we're having a lot of technical issues. I was really
Speaker 1: late and I told coach Coach I could finish this
Speaker 1: if you want to go work on your clothes, and
Speaker 1: he said no, I don't have to work on anything.
Speaker 1: I was like, I hate myself. I would I tell him.
Speaker 1: But you guys here they're bourboning. Proved is beyond the
Speaker 1: reasonable doubt. And it's not just beyond the reasonable doubt
Speaker 1: that assault caused, or or hid or push or shove
Speaker 1: or rolled in the bushes, because you can believe all
Speaker 1: of that beyond the reasonable down. But they still have
Speaker 1: to prove to you beyond the reasonable doubt that it's
Speaker 1: not self defense. And remember this is not serious. Bodily
Speaker 1: injury is bodily injury. They are entitled to do bodily
Speaker 1: injury that is forced. The judges ready the law. They're
Speaker 1: entitled to use force to prevent trespass, entitled to punch
Speaker 1: somebody in the face. They're entitled to throw them on
Speaker 1: the ground. They're entitled to push them. They're entitled to
Speaker 1: do whatever. It's safe to say that Andy was tapping
Speaker 1: her feet the whole time, just itching to get in there,
Speaker 1: and finally she gets her big chance to do a closing.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you that the world didn't flipped on
Speaker 1: that day for this one. I just didn't. The world
Speaker 1: kept turning just like it always does, right, side up.
Speaker 1: The way always has the way it always well. See
Speaker 1: people fight. They knock each other out. I know you
Speaker 1: know this. And sometimes they have good reason. Sometimes they
Speaker 1: have reason. Sometimes they have no reason at all. Sometimes
Speaker 1: people knock each other out getting fights just because they
Speaker 1: can't because they're the bigger guy. Sum made in your
Speaker 1: small excided about the way you looked at me and
Speaker 1: like we you spoke to me. I didn't write that
Speaker 1: you came over here at four in the morning and
Speaker 1: told me to turn the music down. I can do
Speaker 1: whatever I want. She even pulls out the old St.
Speaker 1: Mary's chestnut, the salute to the American flag. It's like
Speaker 1: when you look behind the judge at that flag that's resting, unfoladable,
Speaker 1: and you can't see all the stars and you can't
Speaker 1: see all the stripes, you still know, right beyond reasonable doubt,
Speaker 1: you know what that is. You know that that's flat
Speaker 1: in the United States of America, or the laws that
Speaker 1: we have are meant to keep people safe, or the
Speaker 1: laws that we have we're meant to keep our community safe.
Speaker 1: Were the laws that we have tried tried their best
Speaker 1: never to condone. Pilots always try to say violence is
Speaker 1: not the answer. You, the jury, have the power to
Speaker 1: the side on the facts of this case. You the jury,
Speaker 1: and the power to decide whether you're going to allow
Speaker 1: the Vilens to be the answer and her commannity, whether
Speaker 1: it's okay if you don't like custone talks to you,
Speaker 1: if you don't like how they look at you. But
Speaker 1: you cannot go. She fought, and you cannot go all
Speaker 1: because he can find the defendant. She fought, and she fought,
Speaker 1: and she fought. And I knew this day would come
Speaker 1: where I would see her in trial one day, and
Speaker 1: I didn't know fresh off of that last loss, which
Speaker 1: I know she took a lot, really hard because she
Speaker 1: didn't get to get in the game. And I told
Speaker 1: her that something big is going to happen soon. And
Speaker 1: I don't know if she ever would realize how how
Speaker 1: big this is because she's just being antie. It all
Speaker 1: came together, It culminated all together, everything that we've practiced, played,
Speaker 1: prayed everything for for her. I saw it in that moment,
Speaker 1: and seeing her argue against him and not back down,
Speaker 1: it makes me feel so proud. I'm not her mother,
Speaker 1: I'm not her sister, but I just I feel like
Speaker 1: she's family, and just like when even when I saw
Speaker 1: Jasmine asking questions, like you just see these babies and
Speaker 1: they come through and you're just like, you know, I
Speaker 1: wonder you know, I know they're good people, and I
Speaker 1: just I hope they continue on and work on their skills.
Speaker 1: And she did that. I mean, she she killed it.
Speaker 1: So I mean, I just I don't know. It was
Speaker 1: an amazing feeling and I just couldn't have them that smile.
Speaker 1: Tiarra cried, yes, alright, well you can jury find the defendent.
Speaker 1: Jo alright, jury service than wow, wow trial every artist
Speaker 1: trial I've ever done, the most law I've ever seen,
Speaker 1: h so, the best work I've ever seen. UM, So
Speaker 1: I hope you can appreciate what you saw here today.
Speaker 1: The verdict was not guilty. Um. The jury did come
Speaker 1: back pretty quick, so I think I don't know anything
Speaker 1: that my first time, but I was like, can that
Speaker 1: be good um for the state at least, like I said, like, justices,
Speaker 1: whatever an impartial durve of your peers says, it is um,
Speaker 1: And I think that's the beauty of it. And I
Speaker 1: think I just feel really grateful that I've gotten this
Speaker 1: training that allows you to see both sides of the
Speaker 1: coin and allows you to see that just like there
Speaker 1: can be bad people on both sides, there can be
Speaker 1: really great people on both sides, um, and there can
Speaker 1: be people that are you know, fighting for the community,
Speaker 1: and hey, like, are we going to say that this
Speaker 1: is right? Like are we going to just like go
Speaker 1: around letting people just punch each other just you know,
Speaker 1: because you can because you're mad or even if you
Speaker 1: have a reason, all right, you relax regardless. I think
Speaker 1: that that is what justices. And you know, I mean
Speaker 1: this time it wasn't it. This time they said it
Speaker 1: was okay. Um, But that's the beauty of it. So
Speaker 1: you know, onto the next I got kind of choked up,
Speaker 1: like I wanted to cry, but I was just so happy.
Speaker 1: Like you heard, you know, the client's wife like gas
Speaker 1: and started crying and you could I could see him
Speaker 1: physically start getting emotional. And but it was like such
Speaker 1: a joy because it wasn't injustice to him. And he's
Speaker 1: for two years he's had to be reporting to somebody
Speaker 1: when he didn't do anything wrong, and it's just now
Speaker 1: he can just walk out those doors and you know,
Speaker 1: he can go to fiesta, he can do this and
Speaker 1: he doesn't have to live like that anymore. And so
Speaker 1: it was I was so happy. I like prayed after.
Speaker 1: I was like, thank god that happened. And obviously coach
Speaker 1: that closing was incredible, So it was really awesome. I
Speaker 1: was really happy. The law is about rules. I believe
Speaker 1: in rules, but more important than rules, it is something
Speaker 1: that is based on principles and values, and those are
Speaker 1: values of equal justice and fairness of process and everything
Speaker 1: about that. It's fascinating to you know. I began a
Speaker 1: little bit the study of law when I was in
Speaker 1: middle school and I read Inherit the Wind, which is
Speaker 1: about the Scopes trial right the ability of a teacher
Speaker 1: to teach about evolution in a school in Tennessee. And
Speaker 1: I love the idea that it's also about truth, truth
Speaker 1: finding and all the mechanisms that you use not only
Speaker 1: to get justice and fairness for people, but so the
Speaker 1: ultimate truth comes out. And I've always thought of it
Speaker 1: as a noble pursuit. I say this to commencement audiences
Speaker 1: all the time. There's a lot of power in a
Speaker 1: legal degree. You know, individuals have power generally, they have
Speaker 1: their voice, they can protest, they can run for office,
Speaker 1: there's lots of things you can do, but I think
Speaker 1: there has been an appreciation as our democracy, in my view,
Speaker 1: has been under attack from a lot of different places
Speaker 1: over the last number of years. That's not a bad
Speaker 1: thing to have a law degree and have the privilege
Speaker 1: of access to a court to redress grievances and equalize
Speaker 1: the playing field for people who don't have access to justice.
Speaker 1: I guess it's good for the learning curve part aspect
Speaker 1: of it, right, Like, you know, we're learning a lot,
Speaker 1: but it's really hard to balance full time student this week,
Speaker 1: full time lawyer also, and it's really I think we
Speaker 1: just we wear a lot of hats and it's hard.
Speaker 1: Do you wear a white hat though I'm the only
Speaker 1: one that wears away at um, we're actually the ones
Speaker 1: that were the right h house. Shut up. I literally
Speaker 1: my caption for you when you said that, Yeah, my
Speaker 1: caption from bart don't think I forgot my caption from
Speaker 1: my embarrass's picture is my white hat is bigger than
Speaker 1: your white hat. Like if it's going to be someone, yeah,
Speaker 1: like I wanted to be meet. Andy and Jasmine graduated
Speaker 1: law school and have been studying for the bar exam
Speaker 1: all summer long. Andy is now working for the d
Speaker 1: a's office, and Jasmine continues to work with Jason Goss,
Speaker 1: who knows they will likely face off again at trial
Speaker 1: in the future. The St. Mary's team wrapped up its season.
Speaker 1: It wasn't all disappointing one of A J's teams. One
Speaker 1: first place that the national trial competition. I don't care
Speaker 1: where they are today. I want to know where they
Speaker 1: are two years from now when they leave. And I
Speaker 1: get so much satisfaction when they graduate. When I'm sitting
Speaker 1: there at graduation, I'm looking up at the stage and
Speaker 1: I see them walk across. I remember the person that
Speaker 1: walked in the first time. How's everybody done? Who did
Speaker 1: not see the video on cross examination? Right, Raven? You
Speaker 1: want to come up here and cross examine Addie, because
Speaker 1: if I can make that connection with you today, I
Speaker 1: can make you a lawyer tomorrow and then you're gonna
Speaker 1: go out and you're gonna do good. From chapter one
Speaker 1: case analysis, you've made some connection to how that works
Speaker 1: with the rest of the case. Next on class action
Speaker 1: for the first time, and it's history. The Diller team
Speaker 1: goes to the National Championship. Welcome Afternoon, every one How
Speaker 1: special is it to all be together again? Welcome to
Speaker 1: nationals Okay, I'm gonna do it again. Welcome to the
Speaker 1: in person National Championship in Port Room A representing the state.
Speaker 1: The Yellow Jackets of Georgia Tech Team one thousand one. Hi,
Speaker 1: I'm Survey. I'm from Georgia Tech. Gro Over there Go Jackets.
Speaker 1: The Blue Devils of Dillard University Team twelve sixteen. Hello,
Speaker 1: I'm Renee than Mean and my name is Amya Ronsic.
Speaker 1: I'm the captain of the Dillard University Mocktole team in
Speaker 1: New Orleans. And as we stay in New Orleans, le
Speaker 1: bancon relate. Let the good times roll? How are you are?
Speaker 1: Your rolling way? What? He? That's next? Time? On Class Action.
Speaker 1: Last Action is a production of I Heart Radio and
Speaker 1: Sound Argument. Created, produced, written, and edited by Kevin Huffman
Speaker 1: and Lisa Gray. Additional story production by Jennifer Swan, Kristen Cabrera,
Speaker 1: Jason Foster, and Wendy Nardi. Executive producers are Taylor Chacogne
Speaker 1: and Katrina Norvelle. Sound design, editing and mixing by Evan
Speaker 1: Tire and Taylor Chacogne. This episode had additional field production
Speaker 1: by Kristen Cabrera. For more podcasts from I heart Radio,
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Speaker 1: you get your favorite shows.