WEBVTT - Ep11: So You Want to be a Lawyer? 0:00:01.920 --> 0:00:04.640 Class Action is a production of I Heart Radio and 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:13.920 Sound Argument. M H. I think this is the cord 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:20.200 um So. I've been in some of these before, so 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:25.279 high So eleven is one of the courts. So like, 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:28.160 I'm a misdemeanor like intern, like for all of the 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:31.480 clerk for all of the courts. It's scary, like you're 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:34.440 walking into this big machine like this is like the machine, 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:38.400 like this is our justice machine, and it's really intimidating. 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:41.479 You don't know anyone. You know, you don't know what 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:42.800 your rule is going to be. You don't know how 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:46.280 they're going to use you. You Yeah, you just don't 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:48.839 know anything or anyone or like you know, are the 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:51.080 ad is intimidating? Are thing nice? Well? They like you 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:52.800 where they give you where you know, you don't know anything. 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:55.920 Um So the first day was like all about figuring 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:59.200 out all of that stuff as well as can I 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:03.240 leave for lunch? Where's the bathroom? Like yeah, it was 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.320 really really intimidating. Um So I have all of the 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:11.120 misdemeanor courts and so like it's like fourteen of them, 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:14.520 fifteen of them, so you know, um if one of 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:16.960 the ads is like, oh, we're going to trial, on 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:18.840 the stage and we come, I'll go to trial and 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.040 fourteen for all being like picturing with them or whatever. 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:47.680 So it's pretty cool, Okay. I think it's this way. 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:51.800 Rock to to seven five. The State of Texas versus 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:56.640 to Day is March thirty. Yesterday we has lending jury 0:01:56.680 --> 0:02:07.320 swarming again and then then whether the rain. Less than 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:10.600 a month after their run to the National Championships stalled 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.840 at the one yard line, X teammates Andy Viscia and 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:16.560 Jasmine ole Gaene are about to face off in an 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:20.680 actual criminal trial at the Bear County Courthouse in San Antonio. 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:24.360 It's a misdemeanor case. Andy will be second chairing for 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:26.520 the d a's office and Jasmine will be in a 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:30.080 similar role with her defense firm, and to up the stakes, 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:34.400 the defense team's lead attorney is none other than Jason Goss, 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:39.000 their former coach from the St. Mary's Trial team. I'm 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.040 just really proud, you know. It's kind of like going 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:43.160 against a child, or's something where you know you're proud 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:45.120 of him, but you're also trying to beat him. Um, 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:47.720 and I do want to beat them because I think 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:52.120 it's justice for my client. It's I mean, it's so cool. 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:54.120 I mean, I just I want to be just like him. 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:57.040 It's it's crazy, it's so cool to see him. On 0:02:57.080 --> 0:02:59.040 the other hand, I didn't know we're going to be 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:02.600 going in directly, had ahead, but you know, somewhat I was. 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:05.079 I was nervous. I couldn't you breakfast, I had to 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.360 drink tea. I wasn't I didn't crack a Celsius until 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:10.639 until later on in the day when I had calmed down. 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:13.200 And it's like, you stand and deliver, you don't care 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:18.760 who's on the other side. I'm feeling excited, for sure, 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:22.240 interested to see how the rest of this case plays out. 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:25.880 But as of now, I feel like my heart is 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:28.280 like kind of like in a little like a little 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.519 fire in my heart because of this. Because everything we've 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:37.560 been hearing and seeing, it's so like upsetting that we're 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:43.440 here trying this case and didn't. Even more bizarre twist, 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:47.520 Jason's wife and fellow trial team coach Maritza Steward, She's 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:51.720 going to supervise Andy during the trial. It's pretty amazing 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:53.920 thing to do because it's it's funny, it's what we've 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:55.800 been you know, we hope to see and we've always 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.000 said that that's one of our things that we're proud 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:00.200 of that any of our students can go you know, 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:02.560 if they worked with us and you know, committed to 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.400 the program, they learned the ideals at a j and 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:07.960 you know, Coach Goss and I, you know, try and teach. 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:16.120 So it's student versus student, student versus teacher, husband versus wife. 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:21.479 What more could you possibly want? This is episode eleven 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:27.320 of Class Action. First thing I would inquire is why 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:43.880 do you want to become a lawyer? Yes? Why do 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:48.000 you want to be a lawyer? The idea that I, 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:51.400 at twenty three years old, can walk into a courtroom 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:54.719 next year and run it front to back better than 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:58.400 some of these people that have been practicing for ten 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:03.880 twenty years. I'm like, that's insane to me. I like 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:09.320 the puzzle. You are given a set of facts and 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:13.000 you have to make those facts work with what your 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:16.120 client wants. And it doesn't matter if your client is 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:19.080 the state, it doesn't matter if your client is an actual, 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:23.200 living human being in front of you. They have something 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:27.159 that they want and your job as an attorney is 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:33.600 to make sure whatever given situation can work out for them. 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:37.680 You do become a different version of yourself, because no 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:39.480 one would want that in there every day. I wouldn't 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:42.080 have any friends. I've always kind of likened it to 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.719 My mom was an absolute maniac about our table manners 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.320 when we were growing up. But she wanted to make 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.520 sure that when I went to that nice dinner, I 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:56.360 exuded confidence because I knew that I could, I could 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:58.160 hang with the you know, with the big kids kind 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:00.560 of thing. It's the same way I know I know 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:02.080 what I'm doing, just as much as I know I'm 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:04.840 picking up the right fork for the right meal kind 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:10.280 of thing. That's future lawyers Hayley Nichols, Dylan Ramsdad Spoils 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:20.160 and Brooke Bomb Gardner and two seven a summary of 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:23.360 this case. In twenty nineteen, the San Antonio Police were 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:26.560 called to a scene at four am on the west 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:29.479 side of town, not far from the St. Mary's campus. 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:34.480 The complaint was coded as a disturbance neighbor gun involved. 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:37.599 For privacy, we're going to remove the names of the 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:41.599 persons in this case. Is he the one Yarlet's calling 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:57.839 on dy And? When Officer Garcia arrived on the scene, 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:01.320 she found a crowd gathered around victim who was lying 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:04.240 on the ground. Half in some bushes and half on 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:08.880 the sidewalk. Okay, did you just have a seizures? That's 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:14.600 what's what's going on. Or the victim we'll call him Boris, 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:18.000 was staring into space and had bumps and contusions on 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:23.000 his face. Okay, yeah, you may want to spit your 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.040 tooth out. No, you don't choke on it. And you 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.600 didn't see any of this, right, sir, I'm sorry you 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:32.720 didn't see any of this. Alright. This is Boris's husband. 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:38.080 He's also an eye witness, well sort of, but you 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:41.080 didn't see anything. I thought him beating him up. Okay, 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:45.480 who's who's them? So I bet the three guys, all 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:48.560 three of them, well, I saw all three of them coovery, 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:51.400 because it's all happened so fast that I was like 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:55.080 freaking out. Okay, all right, so have a good night. 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:00.880 Boris came around and told Officer Garcia that his neighbor, 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.360 a man will call Carlos, was sitting in his car 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:06.960 with a bunch of guys playing his stereo at high 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:14.040 volume at four o'clock in the morning music top blow. 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.400 It's completely can make sure that his off our whole neighborhood. 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:21.080 They do every day I understand why. Forest then told 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:24.400 Officer Garcia that he approached the car and knocked on 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:29.920 the window and the next thing, you know, he didn't 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:32.600 punching me. I was letting low and he was continuously 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:35.040 punching you do you know? Do you know which one? 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:39.839 And w do you want to come talk to me? 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:47.920 Lecture the third? This is Carlos's nephew who was in 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:53.040 the front passenger seat. So what's going on? What happened 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:56.559 all of a sudden? Yes, it's like, I mean, I 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:58.280 didn't think the music is still all. To be honest, 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:02.200 we had a fairly low because we at one point 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.760 he comes up to the chuck bops, okay, and then 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.800 that's what he pulled the gun. He's like, you needn't 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:12.199 turn it, Connor. What's the gun? He was? It was 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.600 romish kind of gun. I guess he pulled it out 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:18.480 from the sign. He's like, you turn the music down now, 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:21.440 blah blah blah. Okay, But you didn't really explain how 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:24.120 he ended up on the ground and everything. So how 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:27.280 did that? What did that happen? At? How we have 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:29.600 so nicely to leave him pushed him, you know, not 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.839 too hard though, just enough to get him off our property, 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:36.360 trying to push him back. Didn't by any chance did 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:38.800 did you hit him or anything like that? All right? 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:42.800 What about uncle? Right? What about her uncle him or 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:48.400 anything like that? All right, we're self defense. But but 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:53.080 I'm not going to deny that we didn't. Yes, yes 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.640 or no. I'm not gonna lie to you, guys. I 0:09:55.640 --> 0:10:00.160 mean I did that. I didn't assault that ba I 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.240 don't want any trouble them. Yeah, fortunately tonight, buddy, it's 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.120 gonna have to go down like this. But uh, what 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:09.679 madis moils is what happens after this and hopefully are 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:12.120 never in handcuffs ever again. All Right, I didn't assaulting 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:14.240 tool at all? How do I prove like this? Or 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:16.880 you're spitting teeth out of his mouth, but look at 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.320 my hands. If you're spining teeth out of his mouth, 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:22.520 my hands would be cut. There's still cuts on my hands. 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:31.480 I'm just saying, yeah, we don't either, buddy. We're just 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:33.439 trying to do our job and I don't just trying 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:35.520 to have a good time on a Friday. I understand. 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:37.920 All right, Just sit tight or I'll turn on the 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:44.960 acing for you. I'm sorry. Carlos was ultimately charged with 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:48.400 assault with bodily injury. It should be pointed out here 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:52.160 that normally a misdemeanor case like this would almost never 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:55.640 make it to trial. But this is America, and if 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:58.400 you've been listening to this podcast all along, you know 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:02.520 we are all about half the constitutional right to a 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:10.600 fair hearing. Facing potential jail time, Carlos bonded out and 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:14.120 decided to seek defense counsel, and here he turned to 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.680 Jason Goss and Jasmine ole Gain to defend him at trial, 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:25.439 but this time against her former teammate. I know her responses. 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.400 I know the way she thinks. You know she knows 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:30.360 the way I think. Like we both have the same 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:33.480 little senses, like if we hear certain questions or responses, 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:37.080 like we're trained by the same coach, Like both of 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:40.040 our senses start like tingling or like okay, this, this 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:43.000 is this is this, and like with objections, like I 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:45.360 I know she's gonna object to and like what she's 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:48.680 feeling and stuff like that. So maybe like not advantage, 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.160 but like I know her and I think her coach 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:57.200 knows her too. The dynamic between counsel is interesting. Now 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:00.319 for some perspective on this whole becoming a lawyer thing. 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:07.719 Here's pre Barra. Counterintuitively, my experience has been that prosecutors 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:11.520 and defense lawyers are much more cordial and friendly. Some 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.440 become quite good friends. And part of the reason is 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:16.640 there's a lot of stake in a criminal case, and 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:20.280 the most professional defense lawyers and prosecutors, they're not taking 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:23.199 it as personally. You know, it's it's not personal. It's business. 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:27.160 To quote from the Godfather. Sometimes someone's a jerk, like 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:29.880 they're There are jerks in every profession, and there are 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:33.280 jerks at trial sometimes, and then you have to be 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:35.400 careful not to let your temper get the better of you, 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:38.960 and you treat everyone with respect in the court room 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:40.280 and certainly in front of the jury, because the don't 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:43.280 know what's gone on behind the scenes. Another peculiar question 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:48.560 arises for defense lawyers in criminal cases who may have 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:50.840 a long relationship with the prosecutors. They may have been colleagues. 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.560 You know, people become prosecutors defense lawyers to go back 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:57.120 and forth. That's the case with Jason Goss. He was 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.440 an assistant DA in this very courthouse for ten yours 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:04.160 before switching sides, so he's on very familiar ground here. 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:08.560 Back to the case at hand. A six member juries 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:12.280 and paneled and Judge Carlo Rodriguez Key is en robed. 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.880 I think if everyone's first trial could be this difficult 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:21.040 and uh, this convoluted um, and they could still get 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.079 through with everything else after, that's going to seem fairly easy. 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:29.000 So it's a great introduction into how tough things can be. 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:34.679 And here we are a trial which begs the question, well, 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:38.439 let's start with why do we need trials? Ashley Email 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:41.679 is a Texas lawyer who runs the National Trial Competition 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:46.520 and apparently she's also an amateur legal historian. So, for 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:48.800 those of you who don't know, trials before they were 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:52.080 in a courtroom were by duel and if you died, 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:56.480 you were the one lying. That's how that was decided. Um. 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.599 So then we got to trials, and maybe that was 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:02.080 a little more fair, maybe not. Maybe it was just 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:05.120 one person shouting this is what happened, and a judge 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:07.840 that I believe you. And so then we got rules 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:11.120 of evidence, and this is how we sort of make 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:14.120 sure that our trial system is working the way that 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:18.640 it should. Obviously it is not perfect. I don't think 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:21.080 any person would ever try to tell you that the 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:23.840 our justice system is perfect, but I think it's the 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.040 best system we've got for trying to make sure that 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:29.480 anybody accused of something has a fair shot for defending 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:33.160 themselves with a lawyer who knows how this system works, 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:39.320 I'm not shaking my boots. Can I win? Probably no, 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:42.360 Probably not on my first one. If I'll be honest, 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:45.440 i'd be. I'd be very shocked, which just sucks, because 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:48.560 I do believe this was an assault. I can't it alone, 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:52.120 and it'd be it'd be thinking very high with myself 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:54.280 to think that I would be able to do this 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:59.240 on my first try. When you're working a real trial, 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.600 it becomes your life for many months, sometimes for a 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.600 year or more. From the moment you charge a case, 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:07.960 or even from the moment you start investigating a case, 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:09.960 there's always a little voice in the back of your 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:11.680 head thinking how is this going to play at trial? 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:13.800 What am I gonna do at trial? And then when 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.160 you're actually on trial those two weeks or six weeks 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.280 or four months or whatever it may be, you I 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:23.840 didn't eat, I didn't sleep. I used to lose pounds 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:25.200 when I was on trial. I don't have that much 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:29.720 to lose. Um it was incredibly stressful and difficult. And 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:34.400 then at the end um cathartic. This is Elijenig, former 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.800 prosecutor in New York Southern District and a legal analyst 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:40.720 at CNN. He knows that when a prosecutor like Andy 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.640 has handed a brief, she'll have a lot of questions. 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:48.840 So two things about about that. First of all, prosecutors 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:51.840 rely on what we call an order of proof, and 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:55.720 it's basically like not quite a script, but it's just 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:58.480 a listing of all your pieces of evidence from exhibit 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:02.240 one through exhibit four teen hundred um. And you learned 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:04.600 to use that as an outline and a guide to 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:07.320 your case. But I want to say this about evidence. 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:11.440 There's a misnomer out there, or misperception that more is better. Oh, 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:13.800 a mountain of evidence that phrase right. Oh, Look, they 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:17.800 have huge amounts of evidence that can really backfire. It's 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:21.800 not about quantity of evidence, it's about quality of evidence. 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:23.920 I learned that the hard way. There was really two 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.120 different approaches to evidence. We used to say at the 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:28.680 Southern District. There was the kitchen sinkers, the people who 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.000 wanted to throw in everything they had, and then there 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:33.800 was the thin two winners, which I became the first 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:35.960 mob trial I ever did. I was the junior person 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.200 of three on the case, and the guys who ran 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:40.760 it were kitchen sinkers. And we did this trial that 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:43.800 took two months, and we had hundreds and hundreds of exhibits. 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:46.280 We played the jury I think ninety or ninety five 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:49.240 different recordings that we had a cooperator who had made 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:52.640 and that case ended up going bad. We had a 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:55.240 couple of the defendants were acquitted. We had a couple 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:57.960 of defendants where the jury hung, so we got to 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:01.320 retry those two defendants where the jury long A year 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:03.360 or so later, by this point I was leading it. 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:06.240 We said, okay, we're cutting out all the fluff. We're 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:09.720 going with our strongest evidence. We went from recordings down 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:12.920 to twelve. We got that. Instead of a two month trial, 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:14.200 we did it in a week and a half. For 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:18.600 two weeks jury came back convicted. Like that. For this trial, 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:21.879 it seems like Jason Goss is more of a kitchen sinker. 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:25.280 He's dug up all sorts of apparent shenanigans on the 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:28.640 part of the d a's office. First off, the nine 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.040 on one tape was destroyed by the d a's Office, 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:36.399 unclear why. In second, the victim, Boris, was previously convicted 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:40.720 on a domestic violence charge involving his husband. That conviction 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:44.119 was later overturned and the records were destroyed by the 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.960 d a's office, which Jason argues is tantamount to a 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:53.080 Brady violation, essentially accusing the state of withholding exculpatory evidence 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:57.160 from the defense. And for us, we believe that this 0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:59.320 guy has been railroaded all the way through and we 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:01.720 want the jury to see that at the end. Since 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.360 I wasn't at the trial, I do hesitate to characterize 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:06.800 this as a smoke screen, but I can imagine this 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:10.840 is going directly over the heads of the young prosecution team. 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:12.680 The one thing that's always looking forward to on the 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:15.119 fens is like, this is the kind of stuff I 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:16.639 try to get into. When I was a prosecutor, the 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:19.200 judge went always protect the defendant and say no, no, no, 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:23.800 be kicking. But in this case, you know, I feel 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:27.440 like I'm not you know what I'm getting. You don't 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:31.439 keep that damn what the prosecution thinks about you or 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:35.560 even the judge. Tony Sarah has seen it all before. 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:39.320 He's eighty seven, a West Coast trial legend and stalwart 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:43.960 defense attorney. I just finished a murder trial in Janose. 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:49.040 It took about three months. Came back satisfactory that I 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:54.320 got a trial separate November seventh. It's another attempted murder 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:59.080 on a police officers life. So I do controversial cases, 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:05.240 and I um defend people who ordinarily are overlooked or 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:11.160 marginalized in the legal system. I've been fighting, you know, racism. 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:16.840 I've been fighting what would call over zelvous prosecutions all 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:21.880 of my career. So I tell the young lawyers, it's 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:25.440 a fabulous calling, but you have to regard it as 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:30.080 a calling. It's a fabulous mission that you're going to 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.240 embark on, but you have to regard it as a mission. 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:38.080 If you regard it as a job and that you're 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:45.160 going to serve the interest mostly of corporations, then you're 0:19:45.240 --> 0:20:05.080 feeding into the status quo. Uh you say, knocked his team, 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:14.399 not to I'm conscious and I'm here just siding that not. 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:18.199 The golpening statements are among the most important parts of 0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:22.240 a trial. It's your first impression on the jury, so 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:28.400 you need to begin with credibility. I was really fortunate. 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:30.119 When I was starting out in the office of the 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:33.760 Federal Public Defender in l A. This is noted defense 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:37.040 attorney Laura Basilon, who runs a law clinic for racial 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:40.800 justice in San Francisco. I had a supervisor. He said, 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:43.639 those eleven seconds, you'll never get them back. And he 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:46.679 also said that a lot of lawyers really don't do 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:49.399 opening statement justice. That they stand up and say an 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:52.120 opening statement, these are the elements of the offense. These 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:53.919 are how I'm going to prove the elements of the offense. 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:56.200 And the jury goes to sleep. But if you stand 0:20:56.280 --> 0:20:59.159 up and you have one sentence that crystallizes your case, 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:01.800 and you're saying it in this passionate way, then all 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:03.879 of a sudden, you have twelve pairs of eyes that 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:08.160 are focused on you. There is and so I want 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:10.480 to talk to you about what actually happened, and what 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:13.080 the evidence is going to prove happening, and how the 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:18.080 world on September seven nine team turned upside down because 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:20.480 the one thing that she did. You've got to take 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:24.200 over the court. You've got to dominate. Your personality has 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:30.320 to be the strongest, Your contact with the jury has 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:34.199 to be, you know, formidable. Andy gets a shot at 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:36.959 doing the first direct examination of a witness for us 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:47.440 his husband, right, but true to life, the guy has 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:50.560 a hearing problem and the microphones in the courtroom aren't working, 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:56.040 and well it's a modern day trial by fire trying 0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:58.640 to have a bit of hearing problems and just for everyone, 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:07.080 wait to see that one. Alright up, can you hear? 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:15.160 Just watch? Sorry, it's a real jury. Um. I think 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:16.680 it's similar in a lot of ways, but it's also 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:19.680 I mean it's different in a lot of ways. Um. 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:21.119 You know, I have to remember little things that I 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:24.680 wouldn't have to remember in mock right, Like I'm making 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:26.960 out contact with all of them. Are you following me? 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:31.760 How do I look to them? One of the hardest 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:35.040 things to do, particularly early on, is keep the poker face. 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:38.439 There's nothing more important than the poker face. Jurors are 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:40.440 looking at the lawyers at their tables and going back 0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:43.440 and forth, often from the person on the witness stand 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:47.960 to the lawyer at the table, to see if they're 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:51.800 reacting poorly something. We don't have a guestion both her 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:54.600 and I question him close to him, and we can 0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:56.480 discuestion the jury and see how kind of like that 0:22:56.600 --> 0:23:01.720 idea that you want to right. So a jura might 0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:03.919 hear a witness say something like, oh, that sounds like 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:06.480 it's harmful to the prosecution, and look and see did 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:09.639 the prosecution flinch? Are they passing notes because they might 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:11.560 not know because they haven't connected all the things together. 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:14.360 You know the case better than any juror will ever 0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:19.040 know the case. Good. Would you again to the members 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:22.240 of the jury, would you introduce yourself? And then to 0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:31.200 the members of the jury okay, okay, and whole shape 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:35.919 speer voice, would you please introduce yourself again to the 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:39.240 members of the jury. I tend to have a lot 0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:43.439 of emotional reactions that show themselves in my face, and 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:47.040 so I've had to train myself to to not to 0:23:47.119 --> 0:23:48.960 not do that. And I think the other thing I've 0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:56.040 had to do is look less stern, because unfortunately, that 0:23:56.119 --> 0:24:00.720 kind of expression, particularly in women, is off putting. It's funny. 0:24:00.760 --> 0:24:03.480 I've always been told by my supervisors that you need 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:05.919 to smile more, Laura, and I'm like, there's nothing to 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:10.600 smile about here. This is a very high stakes, very 0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:16.760 grim situation. The walls are weeping carrying out perfect all right, 0:24:16.960 --> 0:24:22.720 Would you introduce yourself more time. It's not a smiley faced, 0:24:22.800 --> 0:24:25.120 cheerleading time. At the same time, I do think there 0:24:25.119 --> 0:24:28.520 are occasional moments of levity and that it's good to 0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:34.840 look like someone who people can in some way relate to. Uh, 0:24:34.960 --> 0:24:38.600 did you see him at you know, appressively punched the car, 0:24:38.840 --> 0:24:43.240 was doing anything aggressive that you could see for your porch? Okay? 0:24:43.760 --> 0:24:47.120 And then you said that you saw him leave right 0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:49.160 when he left, and do you know what we want 0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:55.919 just after people? Okay, didn't look like from where you 0:24:55.960 --> 0:24:58.119 were standing, did it look like he was trying to 0:24:58.119 --> 0:25:01.040 trust us onto your property. Well, like you're trying to 0:25:01.040 --> 0:25:07.560 bring me to their home side in their house. Okay, 0:25:08.000 --> 0:25:10.760 so we know someone window, that's what you see? After that? 0:25:10.840 --> 0:25:16.960 What do you see? Ah, I'll do that. I've done 0:25:17.160 --> 0:25:20.320 many trials in front of fake treat But so it's 0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:23.160 just kind of it's a weird duality that exists right now. 0:25:23.480 --> 0:25:26.360