1
00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:04,000
Speaker 1: I'm Manny, I'm Noah, and this is no such thing.

2
00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:06,560
Speaker 1: The show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours

3
00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:09,680
Speaker 1: by actually doing the research. On today's episode, why can't

4
00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:11,479
Speaker 1: kids just use the school phone like I used to?

5
00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,440
Speaker 2: There's no no such thing, no such thing.

6
00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:20,600
Speaker 1: Such, thank.

7
00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,560
Speaker 3: Thank thank.

8
00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:28,320
Speaker 2: So.

9
00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:30,600
Speaker 1: A few years ago, my fiance Julie and I got

10
00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,200
Speaker 1: into a disagreement about whether or not our future kids

11
00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,320
Speaker 1: should have cell phones. My view at the time was, well,

12
00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:39,840
Speaker 1: I made it through high school and most of college

13
00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:42,120
Speaker 1: without a smartphone. You can do what I did and

14
00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:43,880
Speaker 1: just use the office phone if you need to reach

15
00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,320
Speaker 1: me or in your mouth to talk to people.

16
00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:47,640
Speaker 4: Yeah.

17
00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, ask one of your friends who has a phone, Yeah,

18
00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,240
Speaker 1: because they have nice parents. Her view was that times

19
00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,960
Speaker 1: have changed. I was in high school, you know, let's

20
00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:57,960
Speaker 1: say fifteen years ago.

21
00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, like that, So I see you sad to

22
00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,600
Speaker 5: hear that, and our phoneless child would be an outlier,

23
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,560
Speaker 5: a loser, maybe a pariah, and they'd be left out

24
00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:11,760
Speaker 5: of things if they don't have a phone.

25
00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,080
Speaker 1: More and more states and school districts have been introducing

26
00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,720
Speaker 1: cell phone restriction policies. California Governor Gavin Newsom putting out

27
00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,800
Speaker 1: the call to all school districts to restrict cell phones

28
00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:22,680
Speaker 1: in the classroom.

29
00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:27,120
Speaker 6: Governor Kevin Stitt once phones out of Oklahoma classrooms. Governor

30
00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:31,440
Speaker 6: Glenn Youngkin issued a executive order requiring the state's Department

31
00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,360
Speaker 6: of Education come up with policies to restrict or ban

32
00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,160
Speaker 6: cell phones for all grade levels.

33
00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,280
Speaker 1: At least sixteen states have introduced legislation to restrict or

34
00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,560
Speaker 1: banned phones in schools. It's kind of hard to keep

35
00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:45,920
Speaker 1: up with as legislation is kind of in different stages.

36
00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,200
Speaker 1: Here in New York, our Governor Kathy Hochel just unveiled

37
00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,320
Speaker 1: a new plan to go into effect this fall.

38
00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,800
Speaker 7: That a bell to bell ban warning until the day

39
00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,600
Speaker 7: is over, is not going to hurt your kids. It's

40
00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:02,560
Speaker 7: going to help them emerge with stronger mental health and resiliency.

41
00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,480
Speaker 1: And that's broadly speaking. Teachers are in support of a bank.

42
00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,200
Speaker 1: According to a p report, seventy two percent of high

43
00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,840
Speaker 1: school teachers say phone distraction is a major issue, and

44
00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,200
Speaker 1: a survey by the National Parents Union said that seventy

45
00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,560
Speaker 1: percent of parents agree that cell phone you should be

46
00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,000
Speaker 1: banned during class, but more than half think that students

47
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:19,919
Speaker 1: should be allowed to use them at other times outside

48
00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,120
Speaker 1: of the classroom, so launch reesas between classes, et cetera.

49
00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:25,120
Speaker 1: On both sides, a lot of this boils down to

50
00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,600
Speaker 1: safety concerns, so parents want to be able to reach

51
00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,000
Speaker 1: their kid during an emergency, whether that's a school shooting

52
00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,200
Speaker 1: or a mental health crisis. But on the other hand,

53
00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,760
Speaker 1: many pro banned parents cite the harms of social media

54
00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:38,000
Speaker 1: and cyber bullying and just playing distraction. So, having said

55
00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,880
Speaker 1: all that, and a disclaimer that none of us have kids,

56
00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:43,160
Speaker 1: but we have all gone to school and we all

57
00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,840
Speaker 1: also own cell phones, what do you guys think?

58
00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:46,360
Speaker 8: Many?

59
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't mean to come off of the top

60
00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,120
Speaker 2: rope here, but I think please, I just think like,

61
00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,400
Speaker 2: if anyone's arguing that, like they need the phones in school,

62
00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,880
Speaker 2: the easiest thing to point to is that we've done

63
00:02:59,919 --> 00:03:02,440
Speaker 2: it before without the phones. As you said, times have

64
00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,040
Speaker 2: changed and there might be new reasons that you know,

65
00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,720
Speaker 2: new kind of factors at play today then when I

66
00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,640
Speaker 2: was in school, that that might make you need a phone,

67
00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:12,760
Speaker 2: But I just don't see it.

68
00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, Devin, Yeah, I think it's ridiculous to argue that

69
00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,720
Speaker 6: kids and need their phones in school. A phone from

70
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,959
Speaker 6: bell to bell, So you don't need it during this Why.

71
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:25,760
Speaker 8: Do you need at lunch?

72
00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 1: I think I lean towards that you're both banned. Well,

73
00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,080
Speaker 1: I'm barely even allowing my kid to have a phone.

74
00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:38,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, I'm just interested to know what the

75
00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,480
Speaker 2: real arguments are because I I've seen this debate a

76
00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,520
Speaker 2: lot online, but I haven't really been that plugged into it,

77
00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,960
Speaker 2: so in my head, I don't know. I'm not necessarily

78
00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:52,520
Speaker 2: pro band, but I'm definitely anti this idea that kids

79
00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:57,040
Speaker 2: absolutely need phones in school. Now, I also don't mind

80
00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,960
Speaker 2: like all right, classes over, whip your phone out, tech

81
00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,520
Speaker 2: your friends or whatever until the next class or at

82
00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:04,840
Speaker 2: recess or at lunch or whatever. Like I had a

83
00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,200
Speaker 2: I did have a phone my senior year of high school,

84
00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,200
Speaker 2: and it obviously wasn't a smartphone. It could only text

85
00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,320
Speaker 2: people or T nine. Yeah, I had T nine texting,

86
00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,320
Speaker 2: and I think I had like a really shitty deal

87
00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,320
Speaker 2: or no deal game on there. But it just wasn't

88
00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,520
Speaker 2: a piece of technology that I ever thought about killing

89
00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:27,000
Speaker 2: time with.

90
00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, obviously, the smartphone thing is so different than even

91
00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,720
Speaker 1: if you were like a texting addict. It's like that

92
00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,479
Speaker 1: just pales in comparison to a smartphone where you have

93
00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,120
Speaker 1: TikTok or Instagram or whatever. Ye like, even if your

94
00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:42,800
Speaker 1: text all the time, you can only do so much,

95
00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:43,680
Speaker 1: you know, because.

96
00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:44,440
Speaker 8: It requires someone else.

97
00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, just like taking the schools and kids

98
00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,200
Speaker 1: out of it. It's like we're all addicted to our phones. Yeah, yeah,

99
00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,160
Speaker 1: because of these things too. It's like, I think that's

100
00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:53,800
Speaker 1: what makes it difficult too, is I think there are

101
00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,800
Speaker 1: a lot of adults who can't reckon with the fact

102
00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,160
Speaker 1: that maybe they also have an issue with the phones,

103
00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,359
Speaker 1: and maybe that colors how they treat the children. Like

104
00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:07,560
Speaker 1: you said, we're largely unaffected by the school specific issue,

105
00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,960
Speaker 1: but I can see there being a great argument for

106
00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,000
Speaker 1: kids needing a place to not be on their phones,

107
00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:16,760
Speaker 1: Like at some point during the day.

108
00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:18,720
Speaker 6: It's not like we're sending your kid off in the

109
00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,680
Speaker 6: woods and saying they can't have a phone and there's

110
00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:21,760
Speaker 6: no way to contact them.

111
00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:22,919
Speaker 8: They're at a school, you.

112
00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:24,560
Speaker 6: Know, the tough thing Like you're saying, it is like,

113
00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,080
Speaker 6: all right, the US schools are in asafe as we

114
00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,600
Speaker 6: want them to be. But I just think that you

115
00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:31,279
Speaker 6: got to think of the trade offs, and I think

116
00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,120
Speaker 6: having the phones and what that does to the kids

117
00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,480
Speaker 6: is worth the off chance of something bad happening and

118
00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:42,240
Speaker 6: you not being able to contact them immediately.

119
00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:43,679
Speaker 8: But I also don't have kids.

120
00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,719
Speaker 1: I also think there's this kind of strain where it's

121
00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,000
Speaker 1: like people kind of want to treat kids the same

122
00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,680
Speaker 1: as adults. Yes, which I get out of, you know, respect,

123
00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,240
Speaker 1: these are humans, Yeah, they have rights. At the same time,

124
00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:01,280
Speaker 1: it's like kids not be trusted to make the best

125
00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,480
Speaker 1: decisions for them since course, like it's why we don't

126
00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,640
Speaker 1: let twelve year olds drive cars. Yeah, yeah, you know,

127
00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,960
Speaker 1: or like yeah there, I mean time their brains aren't developed.

128
00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,679
Speaker 1: It's like they're learning how to be a human still. Yeah,

129
00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:15,760
Speaker 1: so it's like, yeah, like they might not like that

130
00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,799
Speaker 1: we're taking the phone away, but I mean, in my opinion,

131
00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:21,520
Speaker 1: they'll probably be better off if they can, at least

132
00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:23,839
Speaker 1: for five hours of their life not have the phone.

133
00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:25,360
Speaker 1: You think about like.

134
00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,200
Speaker 2: The you know, we've we've heard so much in the

135
00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,760
Speaker 2: past few years, even in Congress, about like the harms

136
00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,799
Speaker 2: of social media. So you think about like if you

137
00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,000
Speaker 2: if you can imagine hearing a good argument for why

138
00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,279
Speaker 2: kids should have phones at all, then you're like, Okay, yeah,

139
00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,880
Speaker 2: maybe it's it's a lot easier to see that these

140
00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:47,880
Speaker 2: five or six hours at school, they shouldn't have them.

141
00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:49,440
Speaker 1: So next, I want to talk to people on all

142
00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,000
Speaker 1: sides of the issue. Let's hear them out, and I

143
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,360
Speaker 1: want to see how these policies actually work in practice.

144
00:06:53,680 --> 00:07:03,799
Speaker 1: All of that after the break, All right, we're back.

145
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:05,320
Speaker 2: I'm Manny, I'm Noah.

146
00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:06,080
Speaker 8: This is Devin.

147
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,880
Speaker 1: So I want to start with the case for banning phones,

148
00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,840
Speaker 1: since that's where the momentum is heading nationally. I spoke

149
00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,120
Speaker 1: with the co founder of an organization pushing for phone

150
00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,160
Speaker 1: free schools. It's aptly named the Phone Free Schools Movement.

151
00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,480
Speaker 3: I'm Sabina Pollack, and I'm co founder of the Phone

152
00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:22,480
Speaker 3: Free School's Movement.

153
00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,800
Speaker 1: Sabina has a very personal backstory that got her involved

154
00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:26,640
Speaker 1: in this issue.

155
00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:29,480
Speaker 9: Yeah.

156
00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:34,320
Speaker 3: So, unfortunately, it all started with a phone call out

157
00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:39,200
Speaker 3: of the blue from my daughter's school counselor saying that

158
00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,440
Speaker 3: she was suicidal, which completely floored me.

159
00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:45,880
Speaker 9: I had no idea she was struggling.

160
00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,800
Speaker 3: Turns out, the main aggravator to that mental health challenges

161
00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,440
Speaker 3: that she was facing with social media and her social

162
00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,160
Speaker 3: media use. Long story short, she ended up spending six

163
00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,960
Speaker 3: weeks in a partial hospitalization program. I did a deep

164
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,080
Speaker 3: dive into the applications she was using. Was pretty horrified

165
00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,800
Speaker 3: at what I was finding. Social media had pretty much

166
00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:14,760
Speaker 3: turned her from a thriving young person with aspirations goals

167
00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:21,720
Speaker 3: for the future, to someone that was unrecognizable, had no

168
00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,040
Speaker 3: aspirations anymore, had given up on herself. So when we

169
00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,280
Speaker 3: finally sent her back to school, our school had a

170
00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,839
Speaker 3: cell phone policy on paper, had trust that we were

171
00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,200
Speaker 3: sending her back to a school where they kind of

172
00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,079
Speaker 3: had her back taking the right steps. We found out

173
00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,679
Speaker 3: pretty much at the end of that semester that her

174
00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:51,160
Speaker 3: grades were falling, and we spoke to all her teachers

175
00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:55,040
Speaker 3: and said, is she using her cell phone? And unanimously

176
00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,200
Speaker 3: they all said, yep, she sits on her cell phone

177
00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,040
Speaker 3: all day during class. So here, not only did we

178
00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,439
Speaker 3: think that we were sending our daughter back to this safe,

179
00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:09,920
Speaker 3: healthy environment, but it was the complete opposite. No one

180
00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,199
Speaker 3: was going to tell us that these problems were going on.

181
00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,439
Speaker 1: Sabina told me she met with the school administration, who

182
00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,320
Speaker 1: said that they were aware of the issues with phones

183
00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,840
Speaker 1: and students, but were hesitant to really do anything about

184
00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:22,920
Speaker 1: it out of fear of reprisal from the community and

185
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,960
Speaker 1: In Sabina's view, this issue couldn't be solved individually because

186
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,240
Speaker 1: she tried to take her daughter's phone away but only

187
00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,120
Speaker 1: alienated her daughter further from her peers and made the

188
00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:35,160
Speaker 1: problem even worse. So I asked what she recommends.

189
00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,400
Speaker 3: We did the boots on the ground research to try

190
00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,760
Speaker 3: to figure out, like what was making certain policies effective

191
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:45,600
Speaker 3: and what was making other policies fail. And what we

192
00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,360
Speaker 3: found out was that it really needs to be an

193
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,560
Speaker 3: all day bell to belle policy, so that means it's

194
00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,679
Speaker 3: not in their backpack, it's not in a personal locker.

195
00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,800
Speaker 3: It has to be you know, stored away from the

196
00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,800
Speaker 3: person or in a in something like a lockable pouch.

197
00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:06,079
Speaker 3: And especially with the classroom time only bands, were really

198
00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,720
Speaker 3: putting the burden completely on the teachers to have to

199
00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,760
Speaker 3: enforce that type of a ban. Some teachers are going

200
00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,440
Speaker 3: to enforce it at a higher level than others, and

201
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,520
Speaker 3: then you have this inconsistency which leads to pushback from

202
00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,080
Speaker 3: students and even the teachers that are heavily trying to

203
00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,600
Speaker 3: enforce the policies. After a couple of weeks, they end

204
00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,840
Speaker 3: up kind of giving up on the policy, and by.

205
00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:31,600
Speaker 9: The end of the school year. No one's really enforcing

206
00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:32,280
Speaker 9: it anymore.

207
00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:34,960
Speaker 2: Like, not even ten minutes ago, I was saying how

208
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,800
Speaker 2: I could see, like your phone gets banned in specific classes.

209
00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,800
Speaker 2: But now now hearing her, I can easily see why

210
00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,000
Speaker 2: all day makes a little bit more sense. Like teachers

211
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,240
Speaker 2: are already so burdened, and I like all these factors.

212
00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,440
Speaker 2: They're probably so stressed out, they're underpaid. It does seem

213
00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:55,560
Speaker 2: unfair to put like one more thing on them.

214
00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:56,880
Speaker 8: Now, just like kids.

215
00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard enough obviously to be a teacher. So

216
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,600
Speaker 1: another common thing you'll hear against bens is what if

217
00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,080
Speaker 1: my kid needs to reach me. Here's what Sabina had

218
00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:07,880
Speaker 1: to say to that.

219
00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,240
Speaker 3: So we're hearing from mental health professionals that you really

220
00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,559
Speaker 3: need to equip these kids, even the ones that have anxiety,

221
00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:20,840
Speaker 3: with other type of coping mechanisms. Even in the real world,

222
00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:22,840
Speaker 3: they're going to have to have several different types of

223
00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,040
Speaker 3: coping methods to be able to navigate a job and

224
00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,800
Speaker 3: so forth. Kids having twenty four access to their parents

225
00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:36,040
Speaker 3: can sometimes fuel anxiety. Schools were typically the safe spaces,

226
00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,319
Speaker 3: you know, It's the first place that they were independent

227
00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:42,920
Speaker 3: from their parents and kind of could experiment through trial

228
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,760
Speaker 3: and are with navigating that independence.

229
00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:49,640
Speaker 1: When you look at the surveys, parents say they want

230
00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,160
Speaker 1: the kids to have cell phones in schools in case

231
00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,199
Speaker 1: there's an emergency. So obviously the most extreme and kind

232
00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:57,880
Speaker 1: of top of mind one often is school shootings. Do

233
00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,000
Speaker 1: you have a response to that line of argument.

234
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, as a parent, I have to say,

235
00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,640
Speaker 3: I get it right, Like, that's a hugely emotional thing

236
00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:11,240
Speaker 3: that's on the top of all of our minds, but

237
00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,480
Speaker 3: we have to kind of make sure that we're separating

238
00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:20,000
Speaker 3: the emotions from the facts. So we know that phones

239
00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:25,920
Speaker 3: make kids much less safe in emergency situation, and that

240
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,400
Speaker 3: comes from, you know, the fact that the phone could

241
00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:35,400
Speaker 3: alert an intruder of the hiding location of students, tying

242
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:40,400
Speaker 3: up communication lines to first responders. And I have to

243
00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,720
Speaker 3: remind myself that the number one important thing is that

244
00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:48,160
Speaker 3: they're safe and that these teachers are highly trained in

245
00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:53,480
Speaker 3: these situations and to kind of rely on them and

246
00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:58,280
Speaker 3: their expertise to handle the situation. There's simple solutions that

247
00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,760
Speaker 3: schools can take, you know, that are cost effective, whether

248
00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,520
Speaker 3: it's installing panic buttons in each classrooms that allowed the

249
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:11,920
Speaker 3: direct line to emergency response I don't think that arming

250
00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:16,880
Speaker 3: kids with cell phones and replacing one harm with another

251
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:17,840
Speaker 3: is the solution.

252
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:19,360
Speaker 9: There's got to be something else.

253
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,719
Speaker 1: Social Media obviously is a huge, probably the biggest kind

254
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,640
Speaker 1: of catalyst in this whole debate. So obviously school is

255
00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:32,800
Speaker 1: only part of the day, you know, from whatever seven

256
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,000
Speaker 1: thirty to two thirty. So I asked if focusing on

257
00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,840
Speaker 1: social media regulation might be a better thing to focus

258
00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,000
Speaker 1: on than getting phones out of schools.

259
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,439
Speaker 3: Fixing the problems with social media definitely, you know, it

260
00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:52,320
Speaker 3: has to happen. We're obviously huge supporters of KOSA and

261
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,600
Speaker 3: bills like that. Unfortunately, those things aren't going to happen

262
00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,120
Speaker 3: fast enough where our kids need it to happen. We

263
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,840
Speaker 3: need to find other solutions in the meantime. Number One,

264
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,360
Speaker 3: we are by no means suggesting that phone free schools

265
00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,680
Speaker 3: are the only solution, but we do really feel like

266
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,600
Speaker 3: it's an important for at step and changing a community

267
00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,120
Speaker 3: norm around phone use. We do have to realize that

268
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,800
Speaker 3: these kids are addicted, and so giving them the seven

269
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:26,360
Speaker 3: plus hours a day to collectively experience life as a group,

270
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,480
Speaker 3: as a community without social media is really some of

271
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,119
Speaker 3: the best digital literacy that we can provide.

272
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,400
Speaker 1: So Sabina mentioned KOSA. That's the Kids Online Safety Act.

273
00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,960
Speaker 1: It's a bipartisan bill that was passed by the Senate

274
00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,760
Speaker 1: in July twenty twenty four, but Congress hasn't voted on

275
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:42,160
Speaker 1: it yet.

276
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,720
Speaker 10: Young people will take back control over their on law lives.

277
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,920
Speaker 10: Parents will have tools to safeguard those young people. They

278
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,960
Speaker 10: will be able to disconnect from the addictive features and

279
00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,600
Speaker 10: opt out of those black box algorithms that drive at

280
00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:07,560
Speaker 10: them relentlessly, be eating disorders, bullying, fentanyl, sex exploitation, self harm,

281
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,960
Speaker 10: and all too often suicide and bullying.

282
00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,240
Speaker 1: That Senator Richard Blumenthal one of the co sponsors of

283
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:16,920
Speaker 1: the bill. I don't want to get too far into

284
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,200
Speaker 1: the weeds here, but it's garnered a bit of controversy.

285
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,280
Speaker 1: Groups like the ACLU argue that it's a First Amendment violation,

286
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,120
Speaker 1: and they say it could be used to sensor info

287
00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,000
Speaker 1: on things like sexual health and gender identity or getting

288
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,760
Speaker 1: help with eating disorders. Basically, what Constitute says harmful needs

289
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:36,400
Speaker 1: to be more specific. We're not going to debate KOSA,

290
00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:40,040
Speaker 1: but generally so like, that's not the point here. Yeah,

291
00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,280
Speaker 1: do you guys agree that cutting social media use during

292
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,360
Speaker 1: school might help overall with maybe addiction outside of see.

293
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, if you're not using your phone for seven hours

294
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,560
Speaker 6: straught today, it's going to make it easier for you

295
00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,960
Speaker 6: to not be on your phone when you're not at school.

296
00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,360
Speaker 1: And lastly, I asked if being had any insight on

297
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,120
Speaker 1: how students actually are reacting to these bands, like how

298
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:04,680
Speaker 1: do they feel.

299
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,840
Speaker 3: I don't know that we've heard from any schools that

300
00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:14,760
Speaker 3: have really had an issue when it comes to students

301
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,240
Speaker 3: kind of adjusting to these policies and in many instances

302
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,920
Speaker 3: actually being very thankful that these policies were put in place.

303
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,480
Speaker 9: I think school's biggest fear is they.

304
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,760
Speaker 3: Think we're going to have pushback from students, and we're

305
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,880
Speaker 3: seeing very little of that. But for the most part,

306
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,560
Speaker 3: we're hearing positive things. I mean, if you think about it,

307
00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:37,000
Speaker 3: just kind of going to a school worrying that you

308
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,560
Speaker 3: might drop your lunch tray and you might be videotaped

309
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,440
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, it's you know, all over

310
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,840
Speaker 3: the internet. But it's just a lot of pressure and

311
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,440
Speaker 3: when you remove that, they're all kind of breathing a

312
00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,760
Speaker 3: sigh of relief. I think one of my pet peeves

313
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,440
Speaker 3: is when people say, well, my child has a right

314
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,160
Speaker 3: to have a phone, and going through this experience, you know,

315
00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,240
Speaker 3: to me, I feel like my child and every child

316
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,920
Speaker 3: has a right to a distraction free education, a right

317
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,399
Speaker 3: to choose to go to school without a phone or

318
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,280
Speaker 3: put their phone away and not feel isolated from everyone

319
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:16,439
Speaker 3: around them.

320
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:18,600
Speaker 9: Kids have a right to that. They have a right

321
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:20,520
Speaker 9: to a healthy school day.

322
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,359
Speaker 6: I had a visceral reaction to my kids have a

323
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:30,840
Speaker 6: right to have a phone. I'm sorry, it's so I

324
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,560
Speaker 6: get why you want your kids to have a phone.

325
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,800
Speaker 8: My kid has a right to have a phone.

326
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:40,320
Speaker 2: Obviously, she wants to she wants to implement these policies.

327
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:41,480
Speaker 1: So I wonder like she's.

328
00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,879
Speaker 2: Broke if all of the kids were so positive about it.

329
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,959
Speaker 1: I think one issue is obviously kids it's harder to

330
00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,000
Speaker 1: survey the same way you can adults. Yeah, so there's

331
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,560
Speaker 1: just wayless data on what students think about these things.

332
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:55,000
Speaker 7: M hm.

333
00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,560
Speaker 1: So a lot of this stuff is both fore and against.

334
00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,520
Speaker 1: It's pretty anecdotal, you know. So you'll see story about

335
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,120
Speaker 1: school that put this in and there'll be one quote

336
00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:05,879
Speaker 1: from some kid who said, yeah it's cool, you know,

337
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,400
Speaker 1: or I don't want this, you know, and it's like, well,

338
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,359
Speaker 1: all right, well that's what Matt from this town.

339
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:17,600
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, Well, if I was, you know, not neutral,

340
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,679
Speaker 2: I was leaning towards restrictions at the beginning of this episode.

341
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,359
Speaker 2: Listening to her made me go a little bit further

342
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,480
Speaker 2: towards that direction. So I'm interested to hear the people

343
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,840
Speaker 2: on the other side of the argument. After the break,

344
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,280
Speaker 2: we'll hear from a parent on the other side. But first,

345
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,800
Speaker 2: some friends of the show shared their perspectives.

346
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,560
Speaker 8: Do you think school should ban phones?

347
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,960
Speaker 11: I think they should mainly because it used to be

348
00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,480
Speaker 11: like people participate in you got your side conversations.

349
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:49,360
Speaker 8: Now when you.

350
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,520
Speaker 11: Walk through the hallway just scrolling on TikTok Instagram reels,

351
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,800
Speaker 11: it's like the hype is going about school, Like the

352
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,920
Speaker 11: only fun part of school is like getting died down.

353
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:03,879
Speaker 11: It's like nobody's even like talking in class, so you

354
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,720
Speaker 11: don't even get the social activities anymore.

355
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,160
Speaker 8: So it's just a school, school, school, work, work work.

356
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,360
Speaker 11: It's not like I'm not that person I can discross

357
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,600
Speaker 11: for I need things to do, you know.

358
00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:18,359
Speaker 8: Yeah, and especially a.

359
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,879
Speaker 11: School when you have all these people around you, all

360
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,280
Speaker 11: these friends or people that could be your friends, and

361
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,359
Speaker 11: then you're just on your phone. It just defeasts the

362
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:27,400
Speaker 11: purpose of a school.

363
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,000
Speaker 4: You know, as someone who has worked in a middle

364
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,439
Speaker 4: school in New York City for the past seven years,

365
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,000
Speaker 4: I have seen the benefit of rules against students having

366
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,480
Speaker 4: their cell phones. We collect our student cell phones first

367
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,600
Speaker 4: thing every morning. We don't entirely know the long term

368
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,679
Speaker 4: effects that this generation will have and their access to

369
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,320
Speaker 4: social media or the remote years of school due to COVID.

370
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,920
Speaker 4: I love being in a school in classrooms where you

371
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,080
Speaker 4: don't have to worry about kids being distracted by their phones,

372
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,280
Speaker 4: and see it as a unique opportunity. It's so beneficial

373
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,680
Speaker 4: to provide kids a sacred time and space away from

374
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,479
Speaker 4: the outside world social media and just focus on their

375
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 4: education and building relationships with people in person.

376
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:14,200
Speaker 1: And we're back.

377
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 8: I'm Anny Noah Devin.

378
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,560
Speaker 1: So now that we've heard from the phone free school's movement,

379
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 1: it's time to turn to the other side. Fifty six

380
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,800
Speaker 1: percent of parents say students should sometimes be allowed to

381
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,879
Speaker 1: use their cell phones during the school day, and this

382
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,119
Speaker 1: is according to a survey by the National Parents Union.

383
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,879
Speaker 1: So I wanted to hear that a union. That was

384
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:39,200
Speaker 1: my first question. Yeah, so that was My first question

385
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,920
Speaker 1: is what is the National Parents Union.

386
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 12: My name is Carrie Rodriguez, and I am Matthew Miles

387
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,000
Speaker 12: and David's mom, and I am the president of the

388
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:54,399
Speaker 12: National Parents Union. The National Parents Union is the united

389
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,639
Speaker 12: independent voice of modern American families. So what we seek

390
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,520
Speaker 12: to do is to bring together pockets of parents power.

391
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,159
Speaker 12: We've got about eighteen hundred of them in all fifty states,

392
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,439
Speaker 12: DC and Puerto Rico, with about one point seven million

393
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,879
Speaker 12: members and reaching between eighteen to twenty million families every

394
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 12: single month through our infrastructure, where we seek to bring

395
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 12: together parents who want to make sure that the priorities

396
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,920
Speaker 12: of American families are actually at the center of our

397
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:29,439
Speaker 12: policy building, our legislation, and our politics. The majority of

398
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 12: American families actually do not want to ban cell phones,

399
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,480
Speaker 12: which you know, may sound crazy when you think about it,

400
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,119
Speaker 12: but it's actually pretty logical because what we have found

401
00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:43,120
Speaker 12: in our research is that parents view cell phones as

402
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:48,200
Speaker 12: communications devices and really value the ability that we have

403
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 12: to have that direct line of communication with our kids

404
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 12: because in modern American life, whether it's the fact that

405
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 12: you know, half of families are divorced and we've got

406
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 12: folks sharing child custos, and you know, we no longer

407
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 12: have this nineteen fifties model where mom is waiting at

408
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 12: home or mom is going to the school and pick

409
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,119
Speaker 12: like kids are by themselves, they're on public transportation. Having

410
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 12: that line of communication where we can track our kids,

411
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 12: know where they are, make sure that we are there

412
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 12: for them is something that is a part of modern

413
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:23,159
Speaker 12: life and modern American culture.

414
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 1: Like Sabina, Carrie brings up the mental health crisis among children,

415
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,679
Speaker 1: exacerbated by social media, but her argument is that because

416
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,199
Speaker 1: of this, kids rely on direct lines of communication for

417
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:32,919
Speaker 1: needed support.

418
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 12: My youngest is a sixth grader. I've gotten calls from

419
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,120
Speaker 12: the bathroom from a kid who's on a five four plan.

420
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 12: My youngest son saying to me like, Mom, can you

421
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,399
Speaker 12: come get me? My teacher's not here. They don't know,

422
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 12: they don't know how to calm me down. I'm having

423
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 12: a panic attack. What can I do? I hop on

424
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 12: FaceTime with him to help him.

425
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 8: To de escalate.

426
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 1: What's interesting is there's already even just in this there's

427
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 1: so much that she does agree with the other side,

428
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 1: especially on social media and mental health and these things.

429
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,439
Speaker 1: It's more like, do we go after the phones or

430
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 1: do we go after the apps? Yeah, because if you

431
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 1: both again, it sounds like if they got rid of

432
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,199
Speaker 1: the apps and the phone was kind of like our

433
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 1: phones in school and it was just the dumb phone

434
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 1: where Okay, I can call my mom if I really

435
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 1: need to. Yeah, that might solve most of the issues.

436
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 2: For that's a good distinction that it's not really like

437
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 2: banned phones. It's like ban the distractions on the phones.

438
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 8: Maybe.

439
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,120
Speaker 6: I think where I disagree with her, and I think

440
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 6: she had a lot of valid points right about, like, yeah,

441
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,439
Speaker 6: should this be more of a conversation. One point that

442
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 6: really stuck with me is her saying, you know, I

443
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,719
Speaker 6: understand these I don't know what it's like to go

444
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 6: to school or be at a young age and go

445
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,199
Speaker 6: through COVID. I know a lot of people had a

446
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 6: tough time with that, even our age, so I can't

447
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 6: imagine being a kid and losing that development time.

448
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:57,360
Speaker 8: I think.

449
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,120
Speaker 6: I just don't see a world in which it is

450
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,880
Speaker 6: is good that your child is reaching out to you

451
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 6: throughout the day as a crutch.

452
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 1: If you have a situation that severe, you know, then

453
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: there should be something else, YESD like yes, okay, I

454
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: need to go to the bathroom and call my mom.

455
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, like you should get a note, you should get

456
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 6: a doctor's serious.

457
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: And yes, like there should be other things in play.

458
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 6: It shouldn't be the norm, it should be an exception.

459
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 6: At a certain point, they're not going to be able

460
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 6: to call you when they're in a tough situation, so

461
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 6: they're going to have to learn that skill. And yeah,

462
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 6: you would want to ease them into that, But I

463
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 6: don't think the response should be, well, I should just

464
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 6: always be available to my kid. It's like, yeah, when

465
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,439
Speaker 6: we were growing up, we couldn't talk to our parents

466
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 6: during the day unless it was an emergency, right, Like,

467
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 6: you have to just figure it out.

468
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 1: So I asked Carrie what an ideal policy would look like.

469
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: Her emphasis, again was on including parents and students in

470
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: the policy making and underlining the reality that we we

471
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: do live in the cell phone age, for better or worse.

472
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 12: An ideal policy incorporates the concerns that teachers have around

473
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 12: distraction disruption, but also takes into the account the fact

474
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 12: that we are pushing our kids into a digital society

475
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 12: where they're going to have to be competitive in a

476
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,439
Speaker 12: global economy where these devices are going to be a

477
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 12: part of everyday life. And it's also our obligation to

478
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 12: teach our children the behavioral management skills to have a

479
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 12: healthy relationship with technology. Now we can ban things, you know,

480
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 12: we try this with a lot of stuff, like maybe

481
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,719
Speaker 12: abstinence education. The best way not to have pregnant teenagers

482
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 12: right is just to tell them don't have sex, right,

483
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 12: don't do drugs like that's always our go to is

484
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 12: to be like, well, just tell them not to do it.

485
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 12: That doesn't work. Well, you know, it's never been an

486
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 12: effective strategy. I also see the antiquated classrooms that our

487
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 12: kids are spending hours a day, and with the idea

488
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 12: if you know, they're never going to have access to

489
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 12: this technology to help them with their everyday skills that

490
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 12: they're going to utilize, it just seems like a missed opportunity.

491
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 6: The abstinence thing doesn't make sense because we're saying, basically,

492
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 6: during this period of time, don't do the thing.

493
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, we're not saying don't be on your phone. Period.

494
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 6: We're saying, during this period of time, we're not going

495
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 6: to ask you not to be on your phone.

496
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 2: And to be slightly fair to her, I think like

497
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: the analogy about abstinence and drug use, Like wasn't the

498
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 2: best analogy, but I do understand the point of like,

499
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 2: instead of banning something, you know from the ground up,

500
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 2: you can be you could, I don't know, focus more

501
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 2: education about it and like help kids understand what the

502
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 2: problems are and.

503
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 6: Who, like who's responsible for that now in this scenario

504
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 6: where the kids are having the phones, who's responsible for

505
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 6: teaching the kids how to have that balance?

506
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 8: Now?

507
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 6: The teachers are Now that's the current situation wherein and

508
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 6: it's not working right. Yeah, So the parents are on

509
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 6: doing a good job of teaching their kids when to

510
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,199
Speaker 6: not use their phones, and the teachers are struggling with it.

511
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 6: Like we're not at this point because it's not a

512
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 6: problem and someone just decided.

513
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 8: Yea great, Oh actually it's just take the phones away.

514
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, there is a problem and that parents are not

515
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,239
Speaker 6: doing a good job of it and the teachers are

516
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 6: struggling with it.

517
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. So kind of last on this, she again really

518
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: stresses wanting her voice to be heard, and she understands

519
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 1: the difficulty of enforcing some of these policies in practice.

520
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 12: You can put whatever policy you want, I will tell

521
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,199
Speaker 12: you that, Like, even when I do a TikTok about

522
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 12: this issue. The comments that I get from American families

523
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 12: are like, great, have your little policy. Let me tell

524
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 12: you about what's going to happen with my child, because

525
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 12: if you think I trust you like that in a

526
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 12: day and age where it is a standing possibility that

527
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 12: they could be shot to death and murdered in a classroom,

528
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 12: you're out of your mind. I will send my kid

529
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 12: with a burner phone. I don't care about your little policy.

530
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 12: We have made a decision in this country that we

531
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 12: are not going to do anything about gun violence. So

532
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 12: if all you got for me is thoughts and prayers,

533
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 12: all I got for you is my kid's going to

534
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,199
Speaker 12: have a cell phone hundred percent.

535
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 5: Like.

536
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 12: The argument will be, well, those are those are so rare,

537
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 12: which again I don't buy because you've had more than

538
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 12: two hundred and fifty instances of gun violence and we're

539
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 12: only in January. Friend. Oftentimes policies like this they come

540
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 12: to me after the cake is baked. I want to

541
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 12: be asked, are you hungry?

542
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 2: Do you want cake?

543
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 12: Do you want a hamburger? Like That's the part of

544
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,439
Speaker 12: the process that we need to be brought into so

545
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 12: that we can actually bring up these points about like

546
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 12: what we're concerned about, but unfortunately, you know, you bring

547
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 12: us in afterwards. What ends up happening is again the

548
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 12: concerns that I have, which are real and valid, around

549
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 12: kids being hurt, being unsafe, Like if you're not considering

550
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 12: like instances like that our special education community, frankly communities

551
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 12: of color and families that unfortunately have these policies more

552
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:10,959
Speaker 12: directly implemented down upon them and unfairly subject their kids

553
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 12: to school discipline because there's just a bigger crackdown in

554
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 12: communities of color, Like these are very real things that

555
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 12: need to be considered.

556
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 6: A really good point I think about who's going to

557
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 6: get in trouble for having these phones? You know, we

558
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 6: already know black and brown kids are disproportionately punished for

559
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 6: doing the same things as white kids. Is just just

560
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 6: another excuse to be like, hey, Dayshan, why.

561
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 8: Are you always on your phone?

562
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 6: Meanwhile, Billy's doing the same exact thing, but Dashawn's getting

563
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 6: suspended for it and Billy if not.

564
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 2: Maybe this just makes me feel like restrictions but flat

565
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: like blanket once they need to be stressed, because if

566
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 2: they're not blanket, then you do run into all these

567
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 2: issues area she's talking about, who's going to get in trouble,

568
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 2: our parents, going to give people second phones, that kind

569
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 2: of stuff. Now, maybe I'm just sliding slightly more to

570
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 2: or to the bell to bell versus class to class.

571
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 12: I will tell you anecdotally from what I have seen

572
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 12: in focus groups, what is so compelling to me is

573
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 12: the lack of understanding around why we are allowing them

574
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 12: to be victim to the algorithm. And that is why

575
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 12: the National Parents Union and me personally, I am such

576
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 12: an advocate for KOSA, the Kids Online Safety Act, because

577
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 12: the real problem that we face is the lack of

578
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 12: regulation around social media and the lack of protection for

579
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 12: our kids and what they are allowed to be influenced by.

580
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 12: And frankly, every minute that we waste kind of having

581
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 12: this convoluted conversation is it the device or is it

582
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 12: the app? Like I'll tell you, it's the app we

583
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 12: actually have as parents, cell phone device management software that

584
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 12: we utilize many of us utilize at home. And this

585
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 12: is where it gets kind of crazy, right because again,

586
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 12: as I said, the very real concerns that folks bring

587
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 12: up about distraction, like there are ways that we can

588
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 12: innovate our way out of this. I know in my house,

589
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 12: I use an app called Aura. It's literally like I

590
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 12: have control over my kids devices. I can control when

591
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 12: they're on the Wi Fi. I can control exactly what

592
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 12: apps they use. I can track their text to make

593
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 12: sure that there's no like there are keywords, so that

594
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 12: if there are issues that they're dealing with that they

595
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 12: get flagged. For me, why aren't we doing that? It

596
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 12: would be so smart and so easy to be able

597
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 12: to create that bubble over schools, or have folks register

598
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 12: these numbers so that they could be restricted during the

599
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 12: school day while at the same time giving parents the

600
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 12: access to their kids and having that open line of communication.

601
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: Let's break this up first on. She talks about having

602
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: these apps like Aura that can really kind of control

603
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: everything on the phone. To me, the way she lays

604
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: at that sounds like a pretty good solution that doesn't

605
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: seem impossible for a school to implement.

606
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 8: I don't know how it would work. I am skeptical

607
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 8: of that.

608
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:09,479
Speaker 1: Do you think kids would be able to get around it?

609
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 8: Kids?

610
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: Did you have like yeah, like face like the school

611
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 2: computers that wouldn't let you on Facebook?

612
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, we had specific stuff like I The issue is

613
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 6: the kids know more about the stuff than the parents.

614
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 6: To do whatever solution you're going to have to implement,

615
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 6: you have to be able to implement with everybody. And

616
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 6: I can see that working in some schools, right or

617
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 6: some classrooms where everyone is down. But what if three

618
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 6: or four of the kids' parents are like, actually, I

619
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 6: don't want that installed. The issue is like whatever you

620
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 6: put into place, they are going to people who don't

621
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 6: want to do it.

622
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 2: The technology doesn't seem that complicated, like if on my

623
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 2: sports gambling app, for example, if I'm in a certain state,

624
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 2: it's just as bloop, you can't use it here. Yeah,

625
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 2: so that seems easy if they do implement some kind

626
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,479
Speaker 2: of like bubble over these schools that like don't let

627
00:32:59,480 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 2: you use.

628
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 6: I'm just sorry, we can't get like schools books. We're

629
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 6: gonna be implementing bubbles Like this is the thing with

630
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 6: these apps and stuff. It's like, yeah, it's gonna work

631
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 6: at like private schools or schools that already have a

632
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 6: lot of resources. The schools that really need this the

633
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 6: most are not gonna be able to implement this stuff.

634
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 8: They can't get like Trump is currently.

635
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 6: Trying to Bend a department of education, and we're talking

636
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 6: about getting smartphone apps. We gotta be realistic about what

637
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 6: it's like, what we're going to be able to do.

638
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 6: And I think installing apps on every kid's phone that

639
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 6: goes to that school is the most roundabout way to

640
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 6: just stop kids from using their phone.

641
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 8: Just take the phones away.

642
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 7: Yeah.

643
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: She also before I even had a chance to bring

644
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: it up, she had a response to my go to

645
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: answer of just go to the front office like I

646
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: used to back in the day.

647
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 12: And the other thing that I just I have to

648
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 12: address because I know our friends are going to say, well,

649
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 12: if you want to contact your kid, they want to

650
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 12: contact you, just go to the go to the phone.

651
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 2: In the art.

652
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: I say, this is my when I first was having

653
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: this conversation, this is what I was thinking. So what's

654
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 1: your answer to that?

655
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 12: Freaking wild I want to be like, do you have

656
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 12: kids in a school, like an actual school. Have you

657
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 12: ever tried to call and get a hold that God

658
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 12: blessed that school secretary. Okay, here in Massachusetts you got

659
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 12: two three thousand kids in a high school trying to

660
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,240
Speaker 12: get a hold of your child in that school building

661
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 12: or having them get a hold of you in a

662
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 12: line of kids, and that's that's not again in keeping

663
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 12: with reality, the schools have yet to figure out how

664
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 12: to effectively communicate with parents and families. So there's a

665
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 12: lot of work to be done on the other end

666
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 12: so that schools can earn our trust that they've got it.

667
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 8: Fair point. I think Jesus one hundred valid.

668
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 6: I think if you want to take people's phones away,

669
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 6: you should be able to notify the parents. If there's

670
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 6: a drill or a lockdown, you should probably figure that out.

671
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 1: And then lastly, to close out, she told me that

672
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: it's not just the phones that are creating this disengagement

673
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: in the classrooms, but maybe teaching methods need an update

674
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 1: or a change.

675
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 12: The issues that we have with cell phones and the

676
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 12: obsession and the amount of engagement we have with this

677
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 12: technology is really a symptom of a greater disease, and

678
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 12: that is the fact that kids are disengaged from our classrooms.

679
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 12: We don't have good classroom management. You know, the little

680
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 12: four year old kid who can't wait to tell you

681
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 12: everything they know about dinosaurs and all the facts and

682
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 12: everything they've learned. That fire is extinguished, that sparkle leaves,

683
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 12: and that's the real problem, is that our teens, their

684
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 12: brains are seeking that engagement. So I think that, like

685
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 12: when we double click on this, like, shouldn't we be

686
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 12: asking the question like why are our kids who are

687
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 12: so hungry for knowledge, who want to learn, why are

688
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 12: they so checked out about what's actually happening in the classroom.

689
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 12: Because where you will see a difference, teachers that have

690
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 12: the ability to engage kids, that have really good practices

691
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 12: around classroom management generally don't have a hard time around

692
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 12: keeping kids off cell phones. And that is really if

693
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 12: we really want to address the issue and get to

694
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 12: the core of it, I mean, you could ban it.

695
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 12: I guess is it really going to address the problem?

696
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 12: I don't think so.

697
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 6: Talking about like the real world work is boring. A

698
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 6: lot of times, you're going to be bored in places.

699
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 6: Not everything is going to be engaging, And I think

700
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 6: part of learning to be an adult is learning how

701
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 6: to be bored in a way that is productive.

702
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, and I think.

703
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 6: That just because your teacher is boring shouldn't be an

704
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 6: excuse for you to be on your phone.

705
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, of course not.

706
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 8: But I do agree that.

707
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 6: Just getting rid of phones does not mean that kids

708
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 6: are strongly going to be better at learning. You have

709
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 6: to complement that of also engaging them in new ways.

710
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 6: We're not suddenly matching China in terms of education because

711
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 6: we took the phone.

712
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 2: Well, it's a lot easier to believe that, you know,

713
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 2: you know, a kid's not going to excel just because

714
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 2: you take their phone away. But it's a lot easier

715
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 2: to believe that a kid is failing to excel because

716
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 2: their phone is there.

717
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So this leads me to the next

718
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: thing I want to look into when we get back

719
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: is do these bands even work? Okay, so now we've

720
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: heard from Sabina who is for the bands, and then

721
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: we heard from Carrie who's against the bands. But I

722
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: wanted to find out if we've actually seen any results

723
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 1: as far as academic performance or mental health. Do these

724
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 1: bands even work? So looking into the research, it's pretty

725
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: difficult to sort out what's actually effective and what's not.

726
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: There's so many different variables across schools, states, countries, not

727
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 1: to mention social media algorithms always changing, COVID, etc. All

728
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,399
Speaker 1: of which is a long way to say there's no clear,

729
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: conclusive evidence at this point. To say phone bans are

730
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 1: good or phone bands are bad. But there have been

731
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: some studies with more to come on the way, So

732
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 1: here's a little bit of what's out there. One study

733
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 1: from twenty sixteen out of England saw schools that had

734
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 1: bands had improved test scores, especially among low performing students.

735
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: The researcher said the effect of the bands was roughly

736
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 1: equivalent to an extra hour of schooling per week. A

737
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two study in Spain saw a reduction in

738
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 1: cyber bullying and two regions with cell phone bands and

739
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: positive test scores. Question of mental health is a little

740
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: murkier and points to some of the issues are experts

741
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: discussed earlier in the episode. For example, one study from

742
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: the University of Birmingham in the UK compared mental well

743
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: being among students with restrictive and permissive school phone policies.

744
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: They found no evidence that restrictive policies helped mental health

745
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: outcomes in students and ultimately said that these policies need

746
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 1: further development. So now that we've heard all of this,

747
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: have you guys changed your minds at all?

748
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 2: I think after everything we've heard definitely really good points

749
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 2: that I hadn't thought about before on the against band side,

750
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 2: especially with the implementation of the bands or restrictions, I

751
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 2: think I'm still leaning a little bit towards some kind

752
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 2: of restriction, maybe not a flat out band, but hearing

753
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 2: some of the data from Europe where we all note

754
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 2: there are not school shootings happening, and hearing the story

755
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,720
Speaker 2: from Sabina, like, I'm just like, there's there's enough information

756
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 2: out there for me to be like, we should at

757
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 2: least try it.

758
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not as clear cut as maybe I wanted

759
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: it to be at the.

760
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 2: Start, and I'm certainly you know, there seem to be

761
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 2: people who are like I guess more alarmists about the

762
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 2: phones and schools than we are. Like, I just think

763
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,879
Speaker 2: it would be a healthier environment for kids. But I'm

764
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 2: not like going to protest or anything.

765
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 8: Like don't have kids.

766
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: School.

767
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 2: They won't let me within ten feet school.

768
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 1: For another episode, Devin, you were you were pretty.

769
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 6: Frank, came in flat than Yeah, pro you feel I

770
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 6: still feel that there should be a flat ban bell

771
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 6: to bell before this, I would say we should do

772
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 6: it yesterday. I do think there's some some work needs

773
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 6: to be done way to Yeah, I don't think we

774
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 6: should do it tomorrow, because I do think there's some

775
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 6: valid concerns of like, yeah, I didn't think it, but

776
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 6: you know, I went to a school with like three

777
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 6: hundred people, so I didn't think about the fact that, yeah,

778
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:49,919
Speaker 6: if you have three thousand people and you have one

779
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 6: phone line, even if it's not a school shooting, if

780
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 6: I'm just trying to call my kid because of something

781
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 6: it's busy, yeah, yeah, you may get the busy signal.

782
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 8: It's like, but we figured It's like, there's there's ways

783
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:00,959
Speaker 8: those things.

784
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 1: It seems like a couple hundred bucks could fix a

785
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: lot of it.

786
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 8: I think we should.

787
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, we should put our efforts into making those things better, right,

788
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 6: Like are notifying parents, making it so that parents can

789
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 6: call the schools and not like hit a busy signal

790
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 6: versus I want to put my efforts into allowing kids

791
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 6: to keep their phones but putting apps on it and

792
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:27,280
Speaker 6: a firewall on the school.

793
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 8: I'm like, take the phones away.

794
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 6: Just make it easier for parents to get in contact

795
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 6: with their kids and for kids to get in contact

796
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 6: with their parents. But I just think that kids, I

797
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 6: just there are adults who don't know how to communicate,

798
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 6: and I'm very worried that these you know, like we

799
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 6: call them the iPad kids are going to have a

800
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 6: real tough time in a real world because they're just

801
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 6: using that phone as a crutch day in and day out.

802
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 6: And I think it is so easy to get distracted

803
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 6: in school. We get distracted without phones. So it's like, yeah,

804
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 6: as much of the distractions that we can eliminate, the better.

805
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 6: I don't think it's a magic I guess we were

806
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 6: saying before, like.

807
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 8: No more phones. Everyone knows is at an OFFICIAD thirty

808
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 8: six on the Act.

809
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 6: But yeah, but like, let's not have more thing Like

810
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 6: it was hard enough for us to go to school

811
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 6: without phones, and like pay attention. Let's not allow more

812
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 6: distractions in the classroom if we can go back.

813
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: To Yeah, I think taking into account a lot of

814
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: the things that I was most surprised by how much

815
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 1: these people did agree on things, especially with social media,

816
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: and there are these clear practical solutions that don't seem

817
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 1: they would like they would be particularly difficult to incorporate,

818
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 1: and I think addressing those would help alleviate this the

819
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: kind of distrust that exists because of kind of how

820
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 1: chaotic it sounds like it can be to be a

821
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: parent in this day and age.

822
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I wonder just kind of looking forward. Devin

823
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier like Trump is probably going to sign an

824
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 2: executive order. It might be signed by the time the

825
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:02,280
Speaker 2: episode comes out that basically eliminates the Department of Education.

826
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,959
Speaker 2: I do wonder how much that would play a role

827
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 2: into the school bands or keeping the phones in there,

828
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 2: Like if there's even gonna be resources for this, because

829
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 2: we're already so limited. Damn yeah, we might not even

830
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 2: be here. There might not be schools at all.

831
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to know such thing. This show is

832
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: produced by Noah Friedman, Manny Fidel, and Devin Joseph. Our

833
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: theme song is by Manny. Our guests today were Sabina

834
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 1: Polac and Carrie Rodriguez. For more, you can subscribe to

835
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: our newsletter at www dot no such thing dot show.

836
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 1: I'll be dropping links to our guests, websites and other

837
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: information I look that while producing this episode. Let us

838
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 1: know what you think or if you have any rex

839
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: for more info. Lastly, please give us a five star

840
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: rating and write a nice review wherever you're listening to us.

841
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 1: We really appreciate it. Thanks and talk to you again soon.

842
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: God bless, Get off the phones, Oh Pappa on Ring

843
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 11: Ring, Come Money, weather, ringing, rap, tapping on