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Speaker 3: Welcome to another episode of The Dynasty Wrap Up Show,
Speaker 3: and we're here to discuss debate episodes seven and eight
Speaker 3: of The Dynasty. The ten part documentary event The Dynasty
Speaker 3: New England Patriots is streaming now exclusively on Apple TV Plus.
Speaker 3: Mike do So, Fred Kersh, Paul Froller, myself, Matt Smith. Fred.
Speaker 3: We're going to start with you out of the chute.
Speaker 3: Did you have Rupert Murdoch on your bingo card to
Speaker 3: be the first voice heard in episode seven?
Speaker 1: No, I didn't, and I was a little surprised. It's
Speaker 1: a good story, you know, one that everyone knows the
Speaker 1: details of, so and I questioned the use of it.
Speaker 1: And the reason why is there's been a lot of
Speaker 1: criticism of the director glossing over Super Bowls, you know,
Speaker 1: two and three, And I get it, you know, I
Speaker 1: understand why they glossed over that, because they're really kind
Speaker 1: of telling a story of how the Dynasty was creating it.
Speaker 1: But it's hard for me to justify that and then say, well,
Speaker 1: why did you put that story in there? You know
Speaker 1: that had nothing to do with the the growth of
Speaker 1: the dynasty or the breakup of the dynasty. So while
Speaker 1: it's a good story, I think it was you know,
Speaker 1: just maybe somebody said, hey, why don't you put this in?
Speaker 3: So Mike, yeah, Fred says, well, we all know the story. Okay,
Speaker 3: you weren't here at the time. Okay, did everybody? Does
Speaker 3: everybody know that story? Or is that something that that
Speaker 3: that kind of a story is going to appeal to
Speaker 3: a wider audience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I knew. I knew the story.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: It was interesting to hear Robert tell it, and I guess,
Speaker 4: you know, at the time, it seemed a little bit strange,
Speaker 4: like what are they setting up here? And I think
Speaker 4: once we got to the end of the episode, the
Speaker 4: way it kind of fit in for me was like
Speaker 4: the Patriots have become more than just a football team. Now,
Speaker 4: this is like a global brand that is now interacting
Speaker 4: with you know, the president of Russia, and you know
Speaker 4: Rupert Murdoch, who's a billionaire, and you know another media
Speaker 4: owner as well. You know, I guess that's what it
Speaker 4: was kind of getting at. It was a little jarring
Speaker 4: at first, like, oh my gosh, Ruper murdocks here, But
Speaker 4: you know, I do think it's an interesting story, So
Speaker 4: it didn't bump me totally.
Speaker 2: I kind of see there.
Speaker 1: Trying if you've got time to My point is, if
Speaker 1: you've got time to tell that story, maybe you have
Speaker 1: time to talk a little bit about absolutely. Second, that's
Speaker 1: no question about you know, that's that's the only reason
Speaker 1: why I think it's a good story.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, And I do think that the time that
Speaker 5: it took to tell it was interesting. Obviously they're telling you,
Speaker 5: like Mike said, the spotlight's on this team and everybody's
Speaker 5: watching every move and it's sort of setting up to
Speaker 5: flake Gate, right that the next you know, great tragedy
Speaker 5: in Patriots history, and they're trying to get to maybe
Speaker 5: how this all came about because there was so much
Speaker 5: scrutiny and there was so much of the they hate
Speaker 5: us because they ain't us kind of mentality that when
Speaker 5: they got that little glimpse of the flake. But are
Speaker 5: they doing something again, here we go and I think
Speaker 5: they're trying to say, this is how big they were
Speaker 5: that everybody was talking about with the Patriots all the time,
Speaker 5: so every little bit about the team was noteworthy for everybody.
Speaker 5: So I mentioned I mean I didn't, you know, like
Speaker 5: I said, it could have been done in two minutes.
Speaker 3: I mentioned to Paul off the air, and of course
Speaker 3: is accusing me of being a nerd, so guilty as charge.
Speaker 3: But the one thing that they kind of played off
Speaker 3: of that, which I thought was an interesting segment, was
Speaker 3: they used a song not familiar with called all Eyes
Speaker 3: on Me, and they they really amplified the point. They
Speaker 3: showed Brady and Giselle, they showed Bill and Linda premiere
Speaker 3: that they showed Robert, and I just thought that was
Speaker 3: really well done, like all Eyes on Me. Yes, yes,
Speaker 3: and that's how what the Patriots are.
Speaker 1: Oh, that was a great montage. Yeah, that was really good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know, it brought back such memories like we're
Speaker 1: in the middle of it at the time, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it was all Patriots, all the time, Giselle
Speaker 1: and Bill and you know, the Crafts and you know
Speaker 1: you were at the top, right, you were at you know,
Speaker 1: Mount Olympus.
Speaker 4: So see, for me, like the perspective I had is
Speaker 4: that was among the most miserable times.
Speaker 2: For me because you're in the middle of ten years.
Speaker 4: No, you're in ten years without a Super Bowl at
Speaker 4: that point, and yes they were on top of the world,
Speaker 4: but it was also incredibly disappointing. Oh seven, oh eight,
Speaker 4: oh nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, you know, all those
Speaker 4: years as a fan, it was devastating. And yes they
Speaker 4: were on top of the world like that, but there
Speaker 4: was also a lot of like time is running out
Speaker 4: on this team, and as a fan, you know, and
Speaker 4: we'll get to eventually Super Bowl forty nine, but you know,
Speaker 4: that was to me the kind of culmination of all
Speaker 4: that suffering that you'd had for ten years. So for
Speaker 4: me it was, yes, it was nice, but I also
Speaker 4: felt as a fan like, I'm not really this wasn't
Speaker 4: really like, oh, aren't the Patriots great right now?
Speaker 2: Like that was year after year of frustration.
Speaker 5: So that's great because that's the outside the organization, because
Speaker 5: the three of us were obviously embedded. We were here
Speaker 5: and Mike wasn't at the time. But that sort of illustrates,
Speaker 5: I think probably why they chose to go into that
Speaker 5: with that montage, to show all the spotlight this in
Speaker 5: the scrutiny this team was under. Mike was a huge
Speaker 5: Patriots fan and he was growing tired of not winning.
Speaker 1: A championships of any other team would have died exactly.
Speaker 5: This is my point of how you can understand why
Speaker 5: Deflake took on the life that it did because everybody
Speaker 5: was so sick of this smug organization that went to
Speaker 5: AFC Championship games and it wasn't good enough for someone
Speaker 5: you put the finger. I mean, I think that does sort.
Speaker 1: Of and for us, at least for me, and I
Speaker 1: think Tom Brady would share the deflay Gate was we
Speaker 1: have to defend our honor. Who's on you? No? But
Speaker 1: I mean like it was like, okay, we're back on
Speaker 1: the wall. Defend the wall. You know, they're trying to
Speaker 1: tear us down again. You know, as a lot of
Speaker 1: the people in the documentary said, Jackie, this is a nothing,
Speaker 1: but it was the Patriots, so it became a huge thing.
Speaker 3: So let's get to that. Okay, this is the episode
Speaker 3: there were the majority of the time was spent on
Speaker 3: the Flakegate and Mike, let's go to the outside person first.
Speaker 1: Did you learn anything?
Speaker 3: Was there any new ground uncovered in your opinion as
Speaker 3: they went through this story?
Speaker 2: No, No, there wasn't.
Speaker 4: I mean, and if anything, I felt like, you know,
Speaker 4: the it was surprising to me because what we've been
Speaker 4: hearing kind of from the fans, is that this is
Speaker 4: you know that the organization's view of this, and I
Speaker 4: felt like the organization's point of view, with how vehemently
Speaker 4: they fought against this, was not included. And you know,
Speaker 4: I go back to, you know, things that we talked
Speaker 4: about with you know, going back to the Jets game
Speaker 4: where they over pumped the balls and Brady was pissed
Speaker 4: and that led to him talking to his guys, and
Speaker 4: you know, so I think that for me, there was
Speaker 4: a lot more context there of it felt kind of jarring,
Speaker 4: I guess in a way. And I almost wrote down like,
Speaker 4: in the context of this episode, four game suspension felt
Speaker 4: light to me, and like when it said four game suspension,
Speaker 4: I go, that's all he got.
Speaker 2: But then all of a sudden, the wheel kind of
Speaker 2: turned and you have.
Speaker 4: Jackie Max saying what you said, Fred, that it was
Speaker 4: a kind of a farce, and like, when did that happen?
Speaker 2: Because right now, the way it's been kind of portrayed
Speaker 2: is that this was serious. Well that's that they were
Speaker 2: cheaters and they really did.
Speaker 1: There were a lot of contradictions by the people in
Speaker 1: the documentary, like Goodell, for example, I have the utmost
Speaker 1: respect and admiration for Tom Brady, Yet I just called
Speaker 1: him a cheater and a liar. That doesn't make sense
Speaker 1: to me. And the and like you said, the way
Speaker 1: the NFL treated this and everything, I think they got
Speaker 1: off four game suspension is getting off easy compared to
Speaker 1: how they framed this thing. You know, this was like
Speaker 1: dragged on for two years.
Speaker 2: That was surprised. It was surprising and surprise myself and.
Speaker 4: Like not thinking forward and knowing what was coming and
Speaker 4: just and then he got a four game suspension and
Speaker 4: I was thinking of it.
Speaker 2: Like that's it. That's all he got that. You know,
Speaker 2: it's strange.
Speaker 3: So, Paul, do you think and I don't want to
Speaker 3: put words into your mouth, but do you how do
Speaker 3: you think it was handled when you ultimately saw it
Speaker 3: as one who lived through it? How do you think
Speaker 3: that the people who created this ultimately presented to.
Speaker 5: And presented as a joke. I thought, Tom, I'm current,
Speaker 5: you know, when he starts off and he's he's got
Speaker 5: that sort of tongue in cheek kind of look, you know,
Speaker 5: and it's kind of a Tom Curran smirk. I like
Speaker 5: to call it. I tease him about it.
Speaker 2: All the time.
Speaker 5: But you know, he starts off with a you know,
Speaker 5: they were tipped off by Baltimore and the NFL was
Speaker 5: looped in through an email like all this stuff, Like,
Speaker 5: so what are you saying like they didn't do it,
Speaker 5: like it was only because they had it out for
Speaker 5: them or like, and then you sort of go through
Speaker 5: it and Jackie mcmollin, as Red and Mike already talked
Speaker 5: about this is a big nothing burger. I've always said
Speaker 5: that the four game suspension to me seemed ludicrous. The
Speaker 5: punishment was was was way too harsh. But I would
Speaker 5: have liked to have gotten some answers from some of
Speaker 5: the people involved as to exactly what happened. I'm sure
Speaker 5: that they made efforts to try to get in touch
Speaker 5: with like say McNally and just Stremski, but the principles
Speaker 5: involved in this weren't talked about.
Speaker 1: Yet.
Speaker 5: We get to see David Portnoy at the at the
Speaker 5: headquarters with that farce of a thing for Barstool.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is going, you know, deeper than actually
Speaker 1: a documentary went. But there's an old saying it's not
Speaker 1: the crime, it's the cover up. And I think the
Speaker 1: fact that Brady destroyed his cell phone and you know,
Speaker 1: just wouldn't let it go. That made it worse.
Speaker 5: That was a clever That was a funny clip they
Speaker 5: put together of Affleck with Bill Simmons, then Matt Damon,
Speaker 5: I think with.
Speaker 1: You know, one of the Late Night Rich Island Rich Eyes,
Speaker 1: and then Bill Bill Burr.
Speaker 5: Was was very funny and that's exactly what Bill Burr says,
Speaker 5: you get suspended because he wouldn't give him their phone,
Speaker 5: you know. So I do think there was parts of
Speaker 5: it that I thought they put together, Like you talked
Speaker 5: about the montage early that I thought that sequence of
Speaker 5: the Boston like that really encapsulated the Boston fan.
Speaker 3: These three guys, I'll tell you what was great and
Speaker 3: just helps sort of put it in perspective a little bit.
Speaker 3: Is we're all now saying I think that it was
Speaker 3: kind of a joke, okay, and maybe that can be
Speaker 3: said a little bit with time and in hindsight. I
Speaker 3: thought the use of al Michaels and the clip that
Speaker 3: they had from the jimbal Cash Show and where he's
Speaker 3: talking about he goes, yeah, that was the lead story
Speaker 3: on the newscast and I oh, by the way, in
Speaker 3: other news.
Speaker 1: You know, the government of just you know, like you
Speaker 1: guys are getting.
Speaker 5: We're gonna lead with the flight end and he goes
Speaker 5: in other news.
Speaker 4: Right, But that was just a jarring switch to me
Speaker 4: because I mean, look, this team was going to the
Speaker 4: super Bowl. This is the integrity of the most popular
Speaker 4: sport in the world that was going on. So you know, look,
Speaker 4: it's you always operate from a sense that we're working
Speaker 4: in sports and it's not you know, any of those
Speaker 4: more serious things. But again, that that was just kind
Speaker 4: of tonally. The tonal shift didn't really match up.
Speaker 1: Whether I would have loved to have seen the same
Speaker 1: thing happen but in week one and what would have
Speaker 1: been the result.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I just say two, Fred, I thought you,
Speaker 4: I thought you had a good line while we were
Speaker 4: watching it.
Speaker 2: You said, so no interception, no deflake eight.
Speaker 4: Is that what they're implying like if they had never
Speaker 4: gotten their hands on a ball, would would be like darn,
Speaker 4: you know, we have no way to prove it.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: And that all led to and and I thought it
Speaker 3: was candled well like did I can't remember who the
Speaker 3: person was that said it, but maybe it was Peter King.
Speaker 3: Although we don't see him. This is the biggest game
Speaker 3: of Tom Brady's life at that point in time. You know,
Speaker 3: you had the Stephen A. Smith saying is for his legacy?
Speaker 3: I never heard he's got to win the game. Wasn't
Speaker 3: his legacy kind of in a decent spot at that point.
Speaker 5: In time, So like just out of curiosity. So let's
Speaker 5: say he goes out there and he plays a football
Speaker 5: game and Pete Carroll doesn't have an aneurysm with thirty
Speaker 5: seconds left and he hands the ball to Marshawn Lynch.
Speaker 5: That changes Tom Brady's.
Speaker 2: Legacy right right.
Speaker 5: If Marshawn Lynch scores a touchdown at the two yard
Speaker 5: line of the one yard wherever he was, Like, that's
Speaker 5: an indictment on Brady. Now like the Stephen A. Smith drama,
Speaker 5: And listen, that's Stephen A.
Speaker 1: Smith. He's manly.
Speaker 5: Who am I to said? He's made a career, a
Speaker 5: very lucrative one out of doing exactly what he did.
Speaker 5: I just I think sometimes we look these some of
Speaker 5: these points come up on the on the episodes that
Speaker 5: we've watched, and I sort of left to saying, was
Speaker 5: it really like that?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Like was it real? Like did anybody really think that
Speaker 5: Tom Brady was going to be considered a fraud if
Speaker 5: they lost.
Speaker 1: That well, I know, but I think, to me, I
Speaker 1: think that the documentary is doing a good job painting
Speaker 1: a picture of what Brady's mindset might have been like
Speaker 1: as we get to the end of the dynasty, beginning
Speaker 1: with perhaps being thrown under the bus by his coach,
Speaker 1: and then, you know, I don't want to get too
Speaker 1: far ahead of ourselves with the other things that happened,
Speaker 1: but all these things built up. You know, why am
Speaker 1: I being questioned about to flay Kate? You know, like,
Speaker 1: doesn't anyone believe me when I say I'm not lying?
Speaker 1: You know, Like, and then they go back to you know,
Speaker 1: you know, we'll see they do go back to Michigan
Speaker 1: and show how he had to fight, you know, against
Speaker 1: Drew Henson there, Like all these little things are adding
Speaker 1: up in Tom Brady's mind that nobody believes in me. Really,
Speaker 1: even at this point, I still have to fight for
Speaker 1: whether it's how good I am or my name my word,
Speaker 1: you know, and.
Speaker 5: The stuff that the documentary to have heard him say,
Speaker 5: stuff like yeah, he didn't, you know, And that's and
Speaker 5: I think at the time I was probably a little
Speaker 5: bit like a la la la la, I don't want
Speaker 5: to hear it.
Speaker 4: But watching it now with a little bit more perspective
Speaker 4: and getting to hear Bill say, what, you know, what
Speaker 4: you pointed out, you have to talk to kind of
Speaker 4: the quarterback on that, and then seeing Brady kind of
Speaker 4: squirm up there and not look well rehearsed that that
Speaker 4: was I think it's maybe just the distance I've had
Speaker 4: from it that context, it did seem like it jarred me.
Speaker 1: They do talk about it about the Mortensen report and
Speaker 1: how that was debunked, but at the time of that
Speaker 1: press conference, it was it was known by everyone or
Speaker 1: believed by everyone, that eleven of the twelve balls were
Speaker 1: drastically underway. That was still wasn't the case. So Belichick
Speaker 1: went out there thinking that was fact, Brady went out
Speaker 1: there thinking that was fact, and with no answers to.
Speaker 4: That, and there was no mention of the I believe
Speaker 4: there was a second Bill press conference, wasn't there.
Speaker 2: Where they said we went into experiment that kind of thing.
Speaker 2: So no mention of that as well.
Speaker 4: Again that and I goes back to my other point
Speaker 4: of I think they really downplayed the Patriots pushback on
Speaker 4: this whole thing.
Speaker 1: Well, right, they got into the but they didn't talk
Speaker 1: about the Wells report in contact with me.
Speaker 3: And so just as we pivot from episode seven to
Speaker 3: episode eight, they win super Bowl forty nine and another
Speaker 3: nerd moment for me and with a little bit of pride.
Speaker 3: One of the great shots captured internally by this organization
Speaker 3: is the shot behind Tom Brady scoreboard is in the
Speaker 3: foreground and he's watching as oh, they're going into score
Speaker 3: and Butler picks the ball off and our cameras behind
Speaker 3: the bench are capturing him jumping up and down. And
Speaker 3: you want to talk about, like, what's your choice there
Speaker 3: is if you're a camera person, who are you going
Speaker 3: to pick?
Speaker 1: The choose?
Speaker 3: And the choice was let's stay on Tom. I think
Speaker 3: that shot paid off. Yeah, And I think that decision paid.
Speaker 1: I think that's an iconic shot. It's an unbelievable last forever. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought they did a pretty good job covering
Speaker 2: that game.
Speaker 4: But I would just say overall, this episode felt a
Speaker 4: little tedious to me and was kind of dragging, and
Speaker 4: I just you know, I didn't really feel the Hernandez episode.
Speaker 2: I watched it twice.
Speaker 4: It moved, I you know, felt invested consistently, and this one,
Speaker 4: I think, you know, what I'm finding with this series,
Speaker 4: what I most enjoy and that's what I most enjoyed
Speaker 4: with generally, is the behind the scenes stuff, Bill talking
Speaker 4: to the team, Tom talking to the team, the old footage.
Speaker 4: Anytime there's any of that stuff, I love it.
Speaker 2: Highlights.
Speaker 4: We seen him a hundred times. But this episode to me,
Speaker 4: a lot of deflake Gate really kind of drags.
Speaker 5: I'm with Mike. I thought the raw emotion that they
Speaker 5: did capture, you know, and some of the stuff was
Speaker 5: probably you guys too, you know, Matt, like you know,
Speaker 5: and I know we've seen it. But Brady's interaction with
Speaker 5: Malcolm Butler, you know, phenomenal, That's that's great, phenomenal, you know.
Speaker 5: And then they have Butler and what does Butler say?
Speaker 5: That meant as much to me as anything that happened
Speaker 5: to saying that, like that's what Tom Brady's stature was
Speaker 5: at the time, and.
Speaker 1: Knowing and him talking about how he felt before the play,
Speaker 1: like I just let up that pass even though.
Speaker 5: Even I had nothing to do with it.
Speaker 1: But he felt like if we lose, this is gonna
Speaker 1: be my fall and I'm not going to get another
Speaker 1: chance to go in there, right, and then he gets
Speaker 1: another chance.
Speaker 3: So let's move on to episode eight, Okay, and right
Speaker 3: out of the shoot, we're going to highlight the second
Speaker 3: round draft pick in the twenty fourteen draft, Jimmy Garoppolo.
Speaker 3: And so now you see where the story is starting
Speaker 3: to go. I think Robert Kraft mentions the fact that
Speaker 3: is told to him by Coach Belichick as they were
Speaker 3: looking at the pick. We have to be ready to
Speaker 3: move on the very famous Bill Belichick quote in the
Speaker 3: press conference, Paul, everybody knows what Tom's contract status in ages.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you know he talked about that right off
Speaker 5: the go, and I thought Robert saying that he felt
Speaker 5: like it was a statement from Bill Belichick. Yeah, the
Speaker 5: drafting of Garoppolo in and of itself was a statement.
Speaker 1: And we always ask what did you learn? And this
Speaker 1: first time I've heard that. You know, in this Robert says,
Speaker 1: Bill came to me and told me about his passes
Speaker 1: over twenty yards and how he's deep, which some of.
Speaker 5: That stuff you've seen sprinkled into some of these stories
Speaker 5: that are like the Seth Wickersham, right, but specifically the
Speaker 5: long ball, you know, passes over twenty yards worse than
Speaker 5: the league. You know, I think Bill in the press
Speaker 5: conference also said that you'd rather be a year earlier
Speaker 5: than year late at that position.
Speaker 4: That quote stood out to me, Paul, and I wrote
Speaker 4: that one down, and you know which one was out.
Speaker 4: Better to be early at that position than late.
Speaker 2: And I couldn't help but think about twenty twenty and.
Speaker 4: You know where was that where we weren't ready at
Speaker 4: all for when Tom Brady.
Speaker 1: Left and again the drafting of Garoppolo. We're building what's
Speaker 1: going on in Tom's mind? You know, he's more and
Speaker 1: more thinking I don't have the support of my coach,
Speaker 1: maybe not my team, but certainly not my coach. And
Speaker 1: this is building. We're building to the to the split up.
Speaker 1: I mean the break.
Speaker 4: They've been building that, I mean since the eight one
Speaker 4: they started when I mean the quotes.
Speaker 2: Where if you're not here, you're you know, out of mind.
Speaker 2: And I think that ever since you get.
Speaker 4: Through those first couple episodes, you've been planning nuggets all
Speaker 4: the time of just how much Bill Belichick. You know
Speaker 4: you're there when you're there, but once you're out, you're out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the only thing about eight is in the episode
Speaker 1: they go to nine, and we talked about it on
Speaker 1: this podcast before. But when Belichick's on the sideline with
Speaker 1: Brady's I can't get this team to play, it's so
Speaker 1: frustrated the fact that he's confiding in Brady with those
Speaker 1: types of thoughts. Fred, he you know, he means that
Speaker 1: they were still in pretty good terms at that point.
Speaker 5: And I think there are things that he does, even
Speaker 5: in this one, that he's given Bill, you know, given
Speaker 5: tom as flowers as the kids like to say, you know,
Speaker 5: and but the bottom line is, yeah, you're saying these things,
Speaker 5: but your actions are telling a different story. Yeah, but
Speaker 5: you know you're drafting my replacement. You're telling that you
Speaker 5: know it's better to be earlier than late. That's your mindset.
Speaker 5: I think you're telling me that I'm still great, but
Speaker 5: you're not showing me that.
Speaker 1: But I you know, this is just me. I don't
Speaker 1: know this to be true, but I think no, Wait,
Speaker 1: Brady was still with Belichick in terms of you know,
Speaker 1: the honeymoon, all equal, you know, patriot way put the
Speaker 1: team first. But I think Brady started to change, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know when when did he like he got Alex.
Speaker 5: Well, but Alex is when That's why I think eight
Speaker 5: is the start. If you were going to just do
Speaker 5: a documentary on the rift between Bill Belichick and Tom Brady,
Speaker 5: I think that would be good.
Speaker 1: Because I think that was about the time when people
Speaker 1: started getting in his ear Alex and Giselle. You know, Tom,
Speaker 1: they don't respect you, Tom.
Speaker 2: You know the Wes Welker quote right of your like
Speaker 2: this little puppy, do you just keep coming? You keep
Speaker 2: crawling back to him?
Speaker 5: That's speaking of like the West. Well, I thought Ala
Speaker 5: is really that maybe the court of the series in
Speaker 5: this whole in this whole episode, I thought he was
Speaker 5: really insightful. That's the money quote, the one that everybody
Speaker 5: saw in the trailer about you know, we played for Tom,
Speaker 5: but we worked for Bill. The other way around.
Speaker 1: He worked for Bill, we worked for Bill, we played
Speaker 1: for Tom.
Speaker 5: But I just thought that him illustrating the tension that
Speaker 5: was building between Brady and Garoppolo as they're coming, you
Speaker 5: know into that training camp in the suspension again, great
Speaker 5: training camp stuff on the field.
Speaker 1: I'll get back to you on like, what's the best
Speaker 1: advice he's given to because he doesn't give it he
Speaker 1: never gave him any it.
Speaker 3: So you're watching and listening to the Dynasty New England
Speaker 3: Patriots wrap up show, and we're talking about episode eight here,
Speaker 3: Jimmy Garoppolo. I remember thinking about it after the fact.
Speaker 3: I think we all talked about it. Garoppolo appears to
Speaker 3: be a necessary kick in the tail for Tom Brady.
Speaker 3: Tom took his candidacy seriously, and while he was certainly
Speaker 3: not falling off a cliff, like Kellerman said, his performance
Speaker 3: up to fourteen statistically at least was going down, so
Speaker 3: there was some legitimacy there. The series decided to go
Speaker 3: in the Garoppolo as a threat to Brady and compared
Speaker 3: it to back in the University of Michigan days when
Speaker 3: Tom was battling Drew Henson. Mike, what'd you think of
Speaker 3: that comparison?
Speaker 2: It felt a little late to me.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think we kind of had already the
Speaker 4: ship had kind of sailed on establishing who Tom Brady was,
Speaker 4: what motivated Tom Brady, So to me, it felt a
Speaker 4: little bit sideways on that initially, you know, going back
Speaker 4: to Michigan seeing him there. I see why they made
Speaker 4: the connection obviously with him going there during his suspension.
Speaker 4: But to me, it's just felt like we kind of
Speaker 4: know this stuff. We're already kind of passed, like the
Speaker 4: prologue of it. Let's get to what we're doing now.
Speaker 3: In the programming note, as Mike talks about, you know,
Speaker 3: the decisions being made, and we're all talking about some
Speaker 3: of the decisions being made during the series. We'll be
Speaker 3: fortunate enough in a coming episode to have the author
Speaker 3: of the book, Jeff Benedict, and the director of the series,
Speaker 3: Matt Hamicheck, to join us on a podcast. So we
Speaker 3: invite you, the listeners and viewers you are going to question.
Speaker 3: You want to ask these guys something about the series,
Speaker 3: please email us at web radio at Patriots dot com.
Speaker 3: If we like your email, we'll ask these guys what
Speaker 3: it was.
Speaker 1: Back to the Michigan thing, you thought it was a
Speaker 1: little bit out of context, A little bit, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Think I would have. I would have liked to have
Speaker 3: seen the Michigan thing earlier on in this I liked it.
Speaker 1: The more I think about it, I like it where
Speaker 1: it was because you know, Garoppolo happens, and you know,
Speaker 1: we're wondering, well, why should Brady care about Garoppolo? He
Speaker 1: knows he's better than him, like he knows he's not
Speaker 1: a threat, but it's just another thing that makes him upset.
Speaker 1: And now we need to go back to Michigan to
Speaker 1: see where did this maybe start, Like where did this
Speaker 1: you know, hatred of anyone who might be a threat
Speaker 1: to you start? And it's because it might be because
Speaker 1: at Michigan he felt he was you know, not appreciated
Speaker 1: and done dirty by Lloyd Carr with Drew Henson. And
Speaker 1: I thought it the more I think about it, it
Speaker 1: makes sense to go back and and you know, relive
Speaker 1: his mindset throughout his career, like you know, like we
Speaker 1: we and then we you know, we hear in the
Speaker 1: first episode, you know, like how competitive he was just
Speaker 1: playing Techmobile and just like every little thing you know,
Speaker 1: just you know, he's ultra competitive and he's wired that way.
Speaker 1: And it goes back to like maybe you know, it
Speaker 1: might have started here.
Speaker 2: It's a good point.
Speaker 5: I mean, I do think it's a good point, a
Speaker 5: good good cop that you make. And because I was
Speaker 5: with Matt a little bit, I thought it was ill timed.
Speaker 5: I would have I liked the anecdote, not necessarily that
Speaker 5: Drew hens Henson part but his buddy, Jay Flannery, who
Speaker 5: you know, we all sort of know when Boston from
Speaker 5: you know, he's he's his buddy, and you know, he
Speaker 5: tells that story about the media day and the line
Speaker 5: that Drew Henson had behind him, you know, signing autographs,
Speaker 5: and Brady's sort of looking and'.
Speaker 2: Like you kidding me?
Speaker 5: This kid hasn't done a thing, right, I'm the starter,
Speaker 5: I'm the captain. And what did Flannery call it? That
Speaker 5: the Tom Brady death? And I got a good clip
Speaker 5: at him stand on the sidelines. So I did like
Speaker 5: that anecdote. I thought it would have been just as
Speaker 5: valuable earlier in the in the episode. But Fred, you
Speaker 5: make a compelling point because he's looking at it as
Speaker 5: Jimmy Garoppolo, as Drew Henson. He hasn't done anything, and
Speaker 5: he replaced me out to me, the big difference is, well,
Speaker 5: now Brady's at the end. He's old, like I don't
Speaker 5: think Belichick did I know, but he was. And Belichick
Speaker 5: looked at it as a guy who was going to
Speaker 5: be forty, and.
Speaker 3: He looked at the actuarial table and said this generally,
Speaker 3: does this is the way it goes?
Speaker 1: News flash?
Speaker 5: Yes, he was going to be forty, he's thirty nine
Speaker 5: years old or wherever he was at the time.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Now Brady ended up outlasting yet. But it didn't
Speaker 5: have to be treated like like Drew Henson had done
Speaker 5: nothing right, Like I think Tom Brady had a right
Speaker 5: to have a chip on his shoulder about Drew Henson.
Speaker 1: This I think is this is life.
Speaker 5: Like no one can be the guy forever, and he
Speaker 5: ended up being the guy for longer than anybody would
Speaker 5: have predicted.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So they move off of the Michigan Garoppolo comparison
Speaker 3: to the Tom Brady Revenge Tour, which a really gets
Speaker 3: us into the playoffs, but they plant the seeds of
Speaker 3: still unsettled. The team's unsettled, and Matthew Slater is introduced
Speaker 3: in this episode for the first time. And I think
Speaker 3: Patriot fans and all of us have a perception and
Speaker 3: a point of view about how Matthew Slater is. It
Speaker 3: was eye opening to me to see some of the
Speaker 3: things that he said in regards to how he thought
Speaker 3: Tom was being treated that year. Mike, what did you think?
Speaker 4: Yeah, me too, I mean that's you know, we Matthew
Speaker 4: Slater just retired, so We're really used to hearing Matthew
Speaker 4: Slater like team representative, you know, never would never be
Speaker 4: one to say some of those kind of things. So
Speaker 4: I certainly thought it was interesting, and I mean, it
Speaker 4: just highlighted to me the difficulty of Bill Belichick and
Speaker 4: the way that he manages a team, which was treating everybody,
Speaker 4: you know, that same and keeping everybody on the same level.
Speaker 4: But you had Tom Brady who inescapably moved beyond that,
Speaker 4: and it's just it's a really hard situation, I think,
Speaker 4: to manage. That's to me what it highlighted, how hard
Speaker 4: it was to manage a superstar who's awesome and you're
Speaker 4: still kind of giving him, you know, pointing out all
Speaker 4: the big problems on tape, and you know the teams
Speaker 4: seeing that. But but the kid, Tom Brady is taking
Speaker 4: it hard and you can feel the rising tension.
Speaker 1: But you know, Belichick has been nothing if not consistent,
Speaker 1: over incredibly consistent. That's what he's always done. But Brady changed, you.
Speaker 2: Know, and everyone's perspective of Brady.
Speaker 1: Change, and I think that players did think that, you know,
Speaker 1: Bill's taking a little bit more out on Brady than
Speaker 1: the rest of us, just to make a point, and
Speaker 1: he probably was. But for Brady that hurt.
Speaker 5: It hurt. And this isn't a referendum on who was
Speaker 5: right and who was wrong. We're just sort of recapping
Speaker 5: where it kind of went wrong. And I do think
Speaker 5: that not only Slater, I thought Dante Stalworth, Wes Welker
Speaker 5: again with the abused dog, when they were talking about
Speaker 5: how hard Bill was on Tom. I thought all of
Speaker 5: those guys had had some interesting comments and it was
Speaker 5: interesting to hear just like how eye opening it was
Speaker 5: to them, like treating Brady this way.
Speaker 2: Muss they did.
Speaker 5: He did capitate to Cass came into that as well,
Speaker 5: which you know, obviously stuff that had happened earlier, but
Speaker 5: it just sort of spoke, and I do think that's
Speaker 5: that's a difference. And that's why I think the chronology
Speaker 5: of this is interesting to me, because by sixteen you
Speaker 5: have quotes from Randy Moss, Dante Stalworth, and Wes Welker.
Speaker 5: They were all gone right by then Slater was still there,
Speaker 5: so that Slater may have been speaking in the present,
Speaker 5: you know, with regard to sixteen, I'm not surprised to
Speaker 5: hear that Bill Belichick was really tough on Tom Brady
Speaker 5: in two thousand and seven when Randy Moss got here,
Speaker 5: but he was still doing the same Johnny Foxborough stuff
Speaker 5: in sixteen.
Speaker 1: Yeah. But here's the thing that we noticed, and if
Speaker 1: we noticed, I'll bet you the players noticed. He wasn't
Speaker 1: that way with Castle, and he wasn't that way in
Speaker 1: the first three games with Garoppolo.
Speaker 5: Well, he definitely wasn't with Garoppolo. But Castle tells the
Speaker 5: story about how he was like, you know, well, we
Speaker 5: had to call your mother because you can't pick steals
Speaker 5: the top gun line. You know, the defense departments Formio
Speaker 5: that your son's dead because they were stupid, you know,
Speaker 5: because he can't pick it up.
Speaker 1: In terms of the praise that he heaped on Castle
Speaker 1: at the press conference, and you know that you could
Speaker 1: see the joy after that first winning Arizona with Garoppolo
Speaker 1: on the sideline by Belichick. I mean you know that
Speaker 1: was personal for Belichick.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's two separate seeking out of Jimmy.
Speaker 1: And if we noticed it, these players are.
Speaker 5: The players noticed it noted it.
Speaker 1: Tom wasn't there right.
Speaker 5: Because he wasn't allowed to be, not because he didn't
Speaker 5: want to be.
Speaker 3: So they chose to use the locker room speech from
Speaker 3: coach Belichick after the Houston Divisional game, And as we
Speaker 3: talked about this before we were rolling, let's look at
Speaker 3: that Houston Divisional game and look at it for what
Speaker 3: it was. That was not an inspiring performance. That's the
Speaker 3: Tomato Can Divisional round where they always used to just
Speaker 3: mop the floor with the team. They didn't Astweilers started
Speaker 3: for the Texans. If they had any kind of modicum
Speaker 3: of quarterback play, that the different game than what happened
Speaker 3: to be.
Speaker 1: Paul.
Speaker 3: You looked up tom stats in that game and they
Speaker 3: were pedestrian.
Speaker 5: Two touchdowns, two picks, two hundred and eighty seven yards.
Speaker 5: I think his passer rating was like sixty eight. Not
Speaker 5: vintage Tom Brady. Certainly in the playoffs.
Speaker 3: They played down to the competent, and so Fred talks
Speaker 3: about the consistency of Bill Belichick. That locker room speech
Speaker 3: to me embodied everything that Bill Belichick is all about. Congratulations,
Speaker 3: we won the game. We're going to be playing the
Speaker 3: ANC championship game. You see Devin mccordy going around, going
Speaker 3: to the chip, We're going to the ship. Bill's point was,
Speaker 3: if you play like this in the next round, it's
Speaker 3: not going to be good enough. And I think that
Speaker 3: that's consistent with the way that that message was delivered
Speaker 3: throughout Yes, Mike.
Speaker 4: Yes, And I mean I think to me it showed
Speaker 4: the contrast between you know, the divisional rounds when they
Speaker 4: were playing the Colts in the three or four you know,
Speaker 4: those epic battles Steve McNair and you know what kind
Speaker 4: of became known as the Tomato Cans and these games.
Speaker 4: And I agree with what Fred said playing down to
Speaker 4: the competition. I mean, I think this was another kind
Speaker 4: of bigger point to just what how dominant this team was,
Speaker 4: especially within the AFC AFC conference.
Speaker 3: So they get to the Super Bowl and they're taking
Speaker 3: on Atlanta in that game, and there's been a lot
Speaker 3: of talk that there hasn't been there fans haven't been
Speaker 3: able to enjoy or relive some of the real highlights
Speaker 3: that have been going on in the dynasty. I thought
Speaker 3: in this particular game, this was the Tom Brady h
Speaker 3: ceremony and to see the greatness and to hear from
Speaker 3: people the Josh McDaniels, well, once we got to hear
Speaker 3: you're just just a question where we gonna have enough
Speaker 3: time on the clock. And I thought that was as
Speaker 3: a person who's invested in seeing the Patriots win, this
Speaker 3: was really good stuff to see.
Speaker 2: Oh god, yeah it was.
Speaker 4: I would just say I think it's probably maybe a
Speaker 4: question for the director of what a challenge it is.
Speaker 2: To show the highlights, because.
Speaker 4: We've seen all the highlights, we've kind of known it,
Speaker 4: and you know, there are certain points that were missed
Speaker 4: on you know, on this with you know, and I'm
Speaker 4: not complaining about that, like you only have so much time.
Speaker 4: We don't you know, necess sssarily need to see Julio
Speaker 4: Jones catching the ball within field goal range and then
Speaker 4: them you know, getting backed out fifteen yards. So it's
Speaker 4: you know, maybe a question for him, a check of
Speaker 4: just how do you balance you know, showing the game,
Speaker 4: showing trying to tell the story of the game, but
Speaker 4: not getting too bogged down and being like a sports center.
Speaker 5: And I don't think they tried to show the story
Speaker 5: of the game. I think they tried to show the
Speaker 5: story of Tom Brady.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the real way to put it, absolutely, And.
Speaker 5: I think that's It's not a bad ye. It wasn't
Speaker 5: a bad course to take.
Speaker 3: And to hear Brady talk about what he was thinking
Speaker 3: after the pick six and you know, you like, how
Speaker 3: many times have we seen Brady on an interception I'm
Speaker 3: washed up? Yeah, half assed effort, not really trying. He
Speaker 3: lunged to try to make a hit on that play
Speaker 3: and it's a shot of him on his knees as
Speaker 3: he's running by, going, oh my, you know we're down
Speaker 3: by this much. I thought Brady was really insightful at that.
Speaker 1: Point in time. Yeah, And I again, I think I
Speaker 1: think the director, Matt did a really good job of
Speaker 1: selecting what the quotes were, including that Brady quote, what
Speaker 1: was on his mind. Now we're gonna lose the game,
Speaker 1: they're gonna call me washed up?
Speaker 2: You know it's me.
Speaker 1: And then you hear all the praise, you know, with
Speaker 1: the comeback and including Poli and and all that stuff,
Speaker 1: and he's getting the praise just not from the people
Speaker 1: that he wants it from, like, not everybody. It's not
Speaker 1: getting it from Bill.
Speaker 5: And I thought they did a great job first. You know,
Speaker 5: you brought Puoli just real quick, fascinating if that's exactly
Speaker 5: like you know, we've Matt and I have talked to Scott.
Speaker 5: We had a great podcast with him. He's a great storyteller.
Speaker 5: I just would wonder if did he really like twenty
Speaker 5: eight to three, Scott, really you would that worried twenty
Speaker 5: to three?
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, but whatever, great moment. But it's a great line.
Speaker 1: That's a great line.
Speaker 4: Fred Freddy Kruger, Freddy Kruger comes to you in the dreams.
Speaker 4: I'm like you should Jason Vorhees is the one that
Speaker 4: you can't kill. Freddy Krueger is like nobody's asleep.
Speaker 2: He's on the dream side.
Speaker 1: All right, but he keeps coming back. Nerd, can you
Speaker 1: just turn your nerd off of fire? He met the
Speaker 1: he meant the guy at Halloween, right, who's that guy?
Speaker 2: Michael Meyers? Michael another one? Yeah, yeah, they I'll do.
Speaker 2: But anyway, metaphor, I didn't anticipate, I digress.
Speaker 5: And I have it. It's a little paraphrase here, but
Speaker 5: there was a shot from a post game or postseason
Speaker 5: after the comeback, and Belichick says Tom's performance was like
Speaker 5: everybody else's in that it was related to everybody else,
Speaker 5: and then he says, but Tom did some stuff, you know.
Speaker 5: Then he sort of said, but credit to the team generally, right,
Speaker 5: you know, like Tom's just like everybody else is one
Speaker 5: of the team. He's relying on the other team all
Speaker 5: the team. I'm sorry you just came back from twenty
Speaker 5: eight to three down because your quarterback was balls perfect
Speaker 5: for the last fifteen minutes of the game, when any
Speaker 5: one of those mistakes could have been like like Atlanta,
Speaker 5: any one of those plays had Atlanta made and the
Speaker 5: game was over. Anyone that the Patriots didn't make would
Speaker 5: have meant the game was over. And the best he
Speaker 5: could do was kind of say, like everybody else, he
Speaker 5: was reliant on everybody else. Yeah, And then he did say,
Speaker 5: you know, like, but what he did, there's stuff that
Speaker 5: no one else has ever done at that age, something
Speaker 5: like that. But again, age age, that's it.
Speaker 1: There always has to be a qualified yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, and there's always seemingly a cliffhanger. Now, it wasn't
Speaker 3: as dramatic as the drafting of Hernandez or the Spygate
Speaker 3: cliffhangers that we've seen in this series so far, but Fred,
Speaker 3: you mentioned it. It's pounding the thought.
Speaker 1: Home about age.
Speaker 3: And so we're now through eight episodes of this documentary
Speaker 3: series with just two to go, and I think the
Speaker 3: seeds have firmly been planted that age, and how is
Speaker 3: this going to continue with this guy? Can?
Speaker 4: I don't think it's gonna I mean, I just to me,
Speaker 4: I had a real quick, just an experience that I
Speaker 4: had similar to when watching Super Bowl fifty one, which
Speaker 4: when we saw Tom's mom on the sidelines and she
Speaker 4: had her head wrapped up and all of a sudden,
Speaker 4: you kind of realize that they're more going on here
Speaker 4: than you really realized. And I thought the marriage I
Speaker 4: thought the same way about this documentary, where you know,
Speaker 4: that was another element that I think was really on
Speaker 4: Tom Brady's mind. It was a big factor through all
Speaker 4: of this that you know, I thought maybe could have
Speaker 4: been highlighted as well.
Speaker 3: Okay, so nice job everybody. Hence concludes the Dynasty wrap
Speaker 3: up show for episodes seven and eight. We'll see you
Speaker 3: where they wrap up this documentary series later on.