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Speaker 1: M H foot Force. If it doesn't work, you're just

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Speaker 1: not using enough. You're listening to Software Radio Special Operations,

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Speaker 1: military news and straight talk with the guys in the community,

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Speaker 1: SOFTWAREP Radio on Time on Target. Very excited to have

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Speaker 1: Stuart Stu Steinberg, author of This Is What Hell looks

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Speaker 1: Like Life as a bomb disposal specialist during the Vietnam War,

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Speaker 1: on with us. If you're not on YouTube, we're we're

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Speaker 1: gonna video of this as well that you might be watching.

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Speaker 1: And uh, I was gonna get into your bio. But

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Speaker 1: it's like every year from the Vietnam War until now,

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Speaker 1: you've done so much, so I'm excited to to get

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Speaker 1: into all of it with you. And I know Jack

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Speaker 1: is as well. Cool. Um, the just the resume that

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Speaker 1: you sent me, it's pretty amazing, you know, between being

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Speaker 1: an e O D serving the U. S Army for

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Speaker 1: five years and then getting a law degree specializing in

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Speaker 1: capital murder as a criminal defense investigator from two thousand three,

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Speaker 1: and then too was in nine ten working with the

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Speaker 1: U N Office on Drugs and Crime as an advisor

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Speaker 1: to the Afghan police officer I said with the Afghan

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Speaker 1: Afghan Border Police, I should say, and training the Afghan

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Speaker 1: Border Police personnel in the conduct of counter narcotics operations

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Speaker 1: along the border of Iran. It's it's a pretty amazing resume.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot to start with. And uh, I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure where we should even start. Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think we should probably start st with, you know,

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Speaker 1: um going into the United States military and UH, this

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Speaker 1: incident you mentioned in your biography of chemical weapons prior

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Speaker 1: prior to you even going over to Vietnam. I think

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Speaker 1: that'd probably be a good place to start. Yeah. When

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Speaker 1: I graduated from U D School, they sent me to

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Speaker 1: this uh dumped in Utah called Dugway Proving Grounds and

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Speaker 1: UH at that time, UH Dugway was where we stockpiled

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Speaker 1: the vast majority of our chemical and biological weapons. And

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Speaker 1: this included like mustard rounds left over from World War One,

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Speaker 1: UH and uh and a lot of nerve gas rockets

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Speaker 1: and UH one of our jobs was checking these rockets

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Speaker 1: for leaguers and there were a lot of them, and

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Speaker 1: we would find the leaguers and destroy them. So UH,

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Speaker 1: it was it was an interesting job. And then um

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Speaker 1: in uh March of n actually marched the thirteenth, which

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Speaker 1: happens to be my son's birthday, not eight but March

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Speaker 1: of thirteen, we uh accidentally nerve gased a sheep ranch

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Speaker 1: and with about a ton of saren. And what happened

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Speaker 1: was they were testing a new uh uh dispensing unit

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Speaker 1: and it malfunctioned, and uh it ended up killing thousands

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Speaker 1: of sheep and pretty much everything that walked, crawled, or

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Speaker 1: flew uh in an area of about forty thousand acres.

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Speaker 1: So you confirmed that it worked? Though, Oh, yeah, it worked.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, um, and I think I mentioned

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Speaker 1: this in the book and the chapter about Dug Way. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know how you hear that, you know, cockroaches can

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Speaker 1: survive a nuclear blast, Well, they can't survive nerve gas

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Speaker 1: because they have a central nervous system. So, uh, it

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Speaker 1: was fortunate that for whatever reason, this happened on a Thursday. Um.

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Speaker 1: And the herders, for some reason, Thursday was their day off,

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Speaker 1: so they were gone. But their horses, their dogs are

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Speaker 1: all dead. And uh, after we clean this mess up,

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Speaker 1: there were actually three of us who volunteered for Vietnam.

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Speaker 1: Uh you enough. Yeah, I just figured, you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of idiotically actually that you know, in Vietnam, at least

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Speaker 1: you would hear the enemy coming, which of course turned

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Speaker 1: out not to be the case. And uh so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I got out of there. I wanted to ask, isn't

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Speaker 1: this is this the famous chemical weapons accident that Seymour

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Speaker 1: hersh ended up writing about, and there's like a big

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Speaker 1: expose a on it. Yeah, And what was really interesting

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Speaker 1: is that do you guys know who Jack Anderson was?

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Speaker 1: Name rings a bell, but bring up he was. He

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Speaker 1: was an investigative reporter for the Washington Post, and every

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Speaker 1: year on the anniversary of this event, he would write

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Speaker 1: something about it and how the government was covering it up.

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Speaker 1: I mean they covered it up for I don't know

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Speaker 1: seventy and I don't know, maybe thirty years. Um, they

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Speaker 1: denied that it had happened. And of course, I mean

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Speaker 1: at one point, um, they had some guy who was

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Speaker 1: claiming that it actually was the result of overspring of

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Speaker 1: some kind of uh insecticide or something, you know. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And what was really sad about it was that they,

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Speaker 1: you know, tried to blame this on the F four.

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Speaker 1: The device was being flown by an F four. They

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Speaker 1: tried to blame it on the pilot four as a phantom.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it a phantom. Yeah, F four phantom. And you know,

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Speaker 1: when I look back on it now, I mean the

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Speaker 1: thing about Doug Waye. They tested these weapons systems UM

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Speaker 1: on live animals, mostly beagles and sheep and rabbits. Why

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Speaker 1: they chose beagles, I don't know, Uh, but it well,

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Speaker 1: it was a really weird place. You know. It was

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Speaker 1: out in the middle of nowhere. The back end of

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Speaker 1: it actually butted up to the Bonneville Salt Flats. And

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the things I was kind of

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Speaker 1: looking forward to, uh while I was there, was being

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Speaker 1: able to watch the world land speed record runs. But

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Speaker 1: I had to get out of there. How when you

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Speaker 1: say you were involved in the clean up, I mean,

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Speaker 1: what what does that mean? How do you even go

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Speaker 1: about cleaning up a searing gas accident? Well, mostly it

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Speaker 1: was identifying the area that had been contaminated. And what

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Speaker 1: actually ended up happening was they ended up bringing in

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Speaker 1: these rome plows UM. I think they may have been engineers,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure. And and uh and they dug a

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Speaker 1: huge pit, I mean huge, like the size of a

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Speaker 1: football field, and they basically scraped everything into this pit.

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Speaker 1: And in the same way that we used to destroy

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Speaker 1: these nerve gas rockets. They filled the pit with tires,

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Speaker 1: thousands and thousands and thousands of tires, and then uh

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Speaker 1: we uh laid out charges see for tied all together

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Speaker 1: with dead cord white fosphorus grenades and then soaked the

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Speaker 1: whole thing in jet fuel and then we set it

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Speaker 1: off and uh and after it burned out and they

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Speaker 1: pitted cooled off, they covered it up, they put offense

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Speaker 1: around it, and UH said no trespassing. One of the

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Speaker 1: interesting things that I learned when I was doing the

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Speaker 1: research for my book was that this land was actually

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Speaker 1: owned by the family of Orange Hatch. Uh. Interesting and

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Speaker 1: so that probably helped them keep it quiet too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they obviously, you know, they paid the sheep farmer

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Speaker 1: a lot of money, uh to shut up basically. And

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Speaker 1: we were debriefed by these guys from the Department of

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Speaker 1: Defense and we're told, you know, we had to sign

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Speaker 1: non disclosure agreements and all of a sudden crap and

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Speaker 1: uh it was it was just another reason, you know,

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Speaker 1: to get out of there. What do you what do

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Speaker 1: you think about that now that you know we're decades

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Speaker 1: later and you reflect back on it, do you have

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Speaker 1: any thoughts about you know, say, the legality of chemical

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Speaker 1: weapons or the legality of test them, uh, or the

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Speaker 1: moral you know, ethical implications. I think yeah, it's completely immoral.

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Speaker 1: It's completely unethical as far as I'm concerned. Um, why

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Speaker 1: we still have these weapons? Obviously we know that the

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Speaker 1: Russians are using them. We know that, you know, because

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Speaker 1: of the poisoning of the skirtballs. Uh. Yeah, you know

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Speaker 1: what's going on in Syria. I mean yeah, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they should all be gotten rid of. I mean it's

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Speaker 1: bad enough that, you know, we've got enough nuclear weapons

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Speaker 1: to destroy the world five thousand times. You know what

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Speaker 1: do we need this stuff for it? Do you think

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Speaker 1: we need to maintain a chemical deterrent or should we

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Speaker 1: take the high road on that and get rid of

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Speaker 1: ours and just encourage the rest of the world to

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Speaker 1: do the same. Yeah, that's a tough question. Um m hm,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't know what the answer is. I mean, personally,

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Speaker 1: I guess yeah, we should take the high road and

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Speaker 1: get rid of them. I mean you're gonna have you know,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna have uh countries out there, people out there who,

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Speaker 1: um aren't going to care what we do. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: the bad actors like for instance, the Syrians, the Syrian government.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and uh, you know, whether we have a

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Speaker 1: stock problem or not, it's not going to stop them

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Speaker 1: from using these weapons for bad purposes. And now that

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Speaker 1: you've told that story, it actually does begin to make

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Speaker 1: sense of why a young man would willingly volunteer to

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Speaker 1: cover the Vietnam War in Southeast Asia. You know, I

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Speaker 1: kind of believe that everything happens for a reason, And

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Speaker 1: the truth of the matter is, if that event hadn't happened,

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Speaker 1: I mean I probably would have eventually come down on

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Speaker 1: orders for Vietnam anyway. But volunteering to go, um, and

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Speaker 1: then I extended my tour, so I was actually in

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Speaker 1: Vietnam for eighteen months. Um. I met the best men

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Speaker 1: I've ever known in my life ever. And Uh, I'm

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Speaker 1: on the board of directors of the National Lee O

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Speaker 1: D Association. We just had our convention in Scottsdale, and

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Speaker 1: so every year, you know, I get to see most

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Speaker 1: of these guys um uh that I served with. UM.

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Speaker 1: Most of the guys I served with on the first

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Speaker 1: team I was on our deceased. Now there there's not

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Speaker 1: many of us left. Um Um. Most of them UM

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Speaker 1: have passed away from herbicide related diseases. Um. But the

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Speaker 1: third team, I was on the seventh Ordiency Attachment up

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Speaker 1: in Northern I Corps. You about fifty clicks f in

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Speaker 1: the DMZ. There was something special about that unit. First

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Speaker 1: of all, we were the only team in Vietnam that

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Speaker 1: never lost a man. We had people, you know, wounded

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Speaker 1: of course, um, you know, and one guy that lost

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Speaker 1: a foot, but uh, yeah, the other teams I was

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Speaker 1: on all lost people. So yeah, you were talking about

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Speaker 1: the guys that served with that are still here. Jack

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Speaker 1: made the connection with you through Mike Vining, So I

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Speaker 1: think our audience would have to hear how you how

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Speaker 1: you met Mike was such a like in my community.

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Speaker 1: Mike and I are actually in Vietnam at the same time.

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Speaker 1: He was on a team down in the Delta, and

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Speaker 1: uh we never met U while I was there. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, in my book, I talked about these three

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Speaker 1: attacks on this AMMO dump that the team I was on. Uh,

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Speaker 1: for the first ten months I was there, I was

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Speaker 1: responsible for and a lot of you do you guys

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Speaker 1: came in from all over the country to help us

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Speaker 1: clean it out. Mike wasn't one of them. So I

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Speaker 1: actually met Mike. Um. I think the first uh any

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Speaker 1: t e O D A convention I went to was

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Speaker 1: in two thousand four. It was in Colorado Springs and

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Speaker 1: that's where I met Mike. And of course his story

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Speaker 1: is yeah, grang out loud. He was the first of

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Speaker 1: you do you guy that went to Delta and of

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Speaker 1: course was involved in the fiasco in the desert trying

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Speaker 1: to rescue the hostages. Um. He's just a great guy,

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Speaker 1: A great guy. And my wife and his life Donnas,

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Speaker 1: spent a lot of time together down in Scottsdale, and uh,

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Speaker 1: they're just just wonderful people. Wonderful people. Just a brief

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Speaker 1: segue because you mentioned your book, I just wanna um

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Speaker 1: let the listeners know. The title of the book is

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Speaker 1: This Is What Hell Looks Like A life is a

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Speaker 1: bomb disposal specialist during the Vietnam War. And you go

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Speaker 1: look for it on Amazon. It's available now. Um. So

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Speaker 1: can we talk a little bit about, you know, when

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Speaker 1: you first landed in Vietnam and what your experience was

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Speaker 1: like as a young E O D technician. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: uh flew out of Oakland, Uh, you know, stopped in Hawaii,

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Speaker 1: had been in oakanhaw and then we landed in Vietnam

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Speaker 1: at ben Wai Air Base and then they chucked us

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Speaker 1: over to Long Ben Uh, which was kind of where

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Speaker 1: all the big army units were, personnel and whatnot. And uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, they started, you know, lined us all up,

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Speaker 1: and they started calling out names, and there was and

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Speaker 1: I went with another guy from dub Waite, a guy

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Speaker 1: named Tom Brown, and they called us out and told

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Speaker 1: us to go stand over wherever and uh and a

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Speaker 1: clerk from our control unit ended up picking us up.

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Speaker 1: And UH we stopped at this UM Air Force Enlisted

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Speaker 1: Men's club. It was like being in the States. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you would never know there was a war going on. UM.

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Speaker 1: And I had some burghers and whatnot. And then we

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Speaker 1: flew out, uh from ben wa Tom went to the

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Speaker 1: one uh in uh Cameron Bay, and I went to

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Speaker 1: the one in four. He flew out on the See

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Speaker 1: one thirty. I flew out on a chinook. I know

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Speaker 1: we landed somewhere to refuel, but I just don't remember where.

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Speaker 1: But um, one of the things I talked about in

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Speaker 1: the book was, you know, wondering when the hell I

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Speaker 1: was going to get a weapon, uh, because you know,

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Speaker 1: h the chinook I was on. Uh was a lot

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Speaker 1: of guys from the hundred and seventy third Airborne Brigade,

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Speaker 1: and of course they were all armed, and man, I

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Speaker 1: was really jealous, you know that these guys said guns

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Speaker 1: and I didn't because I'm thinking, you know, we're in

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Speaker 1: a helicopter here. You know, it's not like we're flying

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Speaker 1: and really fast. And you know what if we get

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Speaker 1: shot down and you had to wait to get to

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Speaker 1: your unit before you were Yeah, I had to wait

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Speaker 1: to get to the unit, yeah, before I ended up.

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Speaker 1: Really that sucks. Yeah, I did, you know, And of course,

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Speaker 1: you know, back then, unlike now, you know, people went

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Speaker 1: to Vietnam individually. You didn't go with the unit. Now,

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Speaker 1: you know the e O D teams and when they

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Speaker 1: originally came over, you know, they came over as a unit.

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Speaker 1: But after that it was you know, when your tour

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Speaker 1: was up, you got replaced by someone, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it kind of started all over again. And so what

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Speaker 1: kind of missions were you getting once you once you

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Speaker 1: arrived at your unit, you finally got your M six team,

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Speaker 1: What was the e O D mission? Like? What were

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Speaker 1: the type of operations that you guys participated in? Well,

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Speaker 1: the basic you know the thing about the e O

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Speaker 1: D is to identify renders safe uh and and destroy

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Speaker 1: all forms of explosive ordinance. You know I E D

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Speaker 1: s and UHDUD two thousand pound bombs. I mean you know,

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Speaker 1: uh bad ammunition. Uh. Now that the first team I

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Speaker 1: was on, we had we had two man on site teams,

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Speaker 1: uh where we ran pretty much constant combat operations with

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Speaker 1: the units of the D seventy three Airborne the game

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Speaker 1: in the fourth Imagery Division, excuse me, and uh so

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Speaker 1: we were went on a lot of combat assaults. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, we went into hot l z ease and

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Speaker 1: took off from hot lse ease and um uh it

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Speaker 1: could be anything from you know, a long range recon

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Speaker 1: team would be out doing an assessment after an air strike.

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Speaker 1: And the thing about air strikes particular really be fifty

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Speaker 1: two strikes. They were always going to be Dud's um.

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Speaker 1: So you know, these long range recon teams would stumble

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Speaker 1: on Dud who knows five pounder seven fifty thousand pounds

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Speaker 1: two thousand pounder and enable call us. So we would

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Speaker 1: get inserted. Sometimes, you know, we had to hump you know,

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Speaker 1: four or five, six, seven clicks to get to you know,

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Speaker 1: where the ordinance was, and and then you know, we

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Speaker 1: do our thing, you know, we blow and of course

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Speaker 1: then that told the enemy that we were there. So

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Speaker 1: um yeah, so so you had a high tail it

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Speaker 1: out of there pretty fast. Yeah yeah. And sometimes what

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Speaker 1: ended up happening is you'd get sucked in. You guys

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Speaker 1: are the weather. You couldn't get a bird out. So

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Speaker 1: then we'd end up like being the you know, the

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Speaker 1: eighth and ninth members of this long range recon team

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Speaker 1: and you know, well we'd be grunts for the rest

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Speaker 1: of the day in the night and you know, hopefully

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Speaker 1: get out the next morning. These were all ORP teams

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Speaker 1: or recon lurks, long rangery continents. Yeah, and sometimes eight

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Speaker 1: teams you know, special Forces guys. Um we did one uh,

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Speaker 1: I did one gig when I was staying. I was

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Speaker 1: t d Y in the Delta for a couple of months,

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Speaker 1: and we did one gig with a team of Navy seals. Um.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, it was it was. It was the best

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Speaker 1: job I've ever had, you know, despite the danger and everything,

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Speaker 1: and you know, getting my ass blown up in the

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Speaker 1: AMMO dump and you know everything else, that's just you know,

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Speaker 1: well tell us about the m O dump story. Then

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Speaker 1: how did how did that happen? Yeah, I commented on

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Speaker 1: shirt before we recorded a new album, the the uh

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Speaker 1: are you thinking of the live albums and Beast in

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Speaker 1: the East. Yeah, well here's the crazy we're getting onto

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Speaker 1: doc and now. But I actually went all the way

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Speaker 1: to South Dakota to see them play that Rainion show. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I hung out with a guy who we had

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Speaker 1: on the podcast before, um Matt Vererkand and it was

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Speaker 1: a great time. I mean, Don's voice is definitely not

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Speaker 1: at its peak. Seeing George Wench though on guitar, I mean,

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Speaker 1: guy is there's there's something wrong with that guy. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't be able to play like that. He's an

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Speaker 1: incredible man, He's a monster. Yeah. Yeah, anyway, I'm glad

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Speaker 1: you noticed that that. Right when I saw the Motorhead show,

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Speaker 1: I was like, I think there's a big cross section

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Speaker 1: of guys on this show who are just like metalheads. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think I think that's probably true. What did you

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Speaker 1: ask me the AMMO dump story? Oh? Yeah, well on

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Speaker 1: February March eleven, twelve. In March nineties sixty nine, the

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Speaker 1: VC got into the queyan Ammo dump and blew it up.

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Speaker 1: And during all three attacks they never saw a single VC. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They got in and out of the dump without being seen.

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Speaker 1: It was yeah, And every time the dunk got hit,

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Speaker 1: they would then increase the amount of security. And by

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Speaker 1: the time the dunk got blown up the third time

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Speaker 1: on Marche, I think you know, between the two field

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Speaker 1: forces lurbs and Korean Marines and uh and uh some

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Speaker 1: Vietnamese Army rangers, they had nine or ten ambushes set

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Speaker 1: up around outside the dumpy. They never caught anybody. On

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Speaker 1: one occasion. Uh, they did hit a VC patrol, but

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Speaker 1: they weren't sappers. They were just happened to be a

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Speaker 1: patrol um And uh yeah, so how the hell were

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Speaker 1: they getting in and out? Did you guys ever figure

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Speaker 1: that out? Well? Yeah, to two times they actually came

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Speaker 1: through the wire and we're not seeing the second. The

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Speaker 1: third time they actually tunneled under a creek and came

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Speaker 1: up in a location in the Ambo dump. It was

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Speaker 1: a blind spot to the guard towers. And not only that,

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Speaker 1: they actually had roving patrols with dogs inside the dump

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Speaker 1: by the third attack. And you know what was really

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Speaker 1: irritating about it was they blew it up. We started,

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Speaker 1: and of course all three times we were in the

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Speaker 1: dump while entire paths of you know, eighty one millimeter

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Speaker 1: mortars eight inch around won seven fives were detonating. And

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Speaker 1: how we never lost anyone. Yeah, it's just one of

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Speaker 1: those miraculous things that you know, you just can't comprehend.

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Speaker 1: And now the m of battalion, the one four Ordinance Battalion,

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Speaker 1: they did lose three guys during the third attack. Um,

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Speaker 1: and uh, I'm kind of sick. The thing about that

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Speaker 1: was every week in the Army Times they would publish

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Speaker 1: a list of people who were killed in action or

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Speaker 1: missing or whatever the week before. So the week after

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Speaker 1: the dump went up the third time, those three guys

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Speaker 1: who were vaporized basically because they were on a pad

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Speaker 1: eight inch rounds that went up, they were listed as

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Speaker 1: missing in action, presumed dead because they didn't have the remains. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they found the ring finger of Captain Allen, his citadel ring,

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Speaker 1: so I guess they thought the rest of him was

355
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Speaker 1: in de Moine or something. Yeah, I mean I remember,

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Speaker 1: I mean a friend of mine was telling me this

357
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Speaker 1: story about how in Afghanistan there out on patrol and

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Speaker 1: the guy behind him get they think he stepped out

359
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Speaker 1: a pressure plate. Explosives went off, and the dude was

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Speaker 1: just vaporized, and he's telling me how surreal it was

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Speaker 1: that one second there's a human being there, the next

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Speaker 1: second the guy's gone, like it's a fucking magic trick

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Speaker 1: or something. And they found the dudes ember or radio

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Speaker 1: like two deployments later. Um, you know, a kilometer away

365
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Speaker 1: from where the explosion took place. Yeah, I have to

366
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Speaker 1: understand was the trip Yeah yeah, you know I saw

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Speaker 1: in your on your resume that you spent some time

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Speaker 1: over there too. Will definitely get into that. So your

369
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Speaker 1: role on the on that was to clean up the

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Speaker 1: mess I guess again, yeah at them. And there are

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Speaker 1: some pictures in the book of the devastation. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're um, there's a there were a pado one of

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Speaker 1: five rounds that just you were like ankle deep in

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Speaker 1: you know, unexploded rounds and shrapnel and you know whatever. Um,

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Speaker 1: can you describe for people a little bit about like

376
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Speaker 1: as far as the size of this facility, how much

377
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Speaker 1: uxo we're talking about? Uh, this dump originally before the

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Speaker 1: first attack, had nineteen tons of ordinance and after the

379
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Speaker 1: third attack, eleven thousand tons had been destroyed it and

380
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Speaker 1: we ended up uh blowing a lot of the damaged

381
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Speaker 1: ordinance and and dumping hundreds of tons, thousands of tons

382
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Speaker 1: of it off the coast of Vietnam into the South Genes. See.

383
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Speaker 1: I'm sure that that area where we dumped this stuff

384
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Speaker 1: is completely dead now, you know, because we did dump

385
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Speaker 1: a lot of chemical weapons, particularly white Foster's rounds. Oh

386
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Speaker 1: my god, it's crazy. So I mean this, this, uh,

387
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: this facility must have been like a major logistical hub

388
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Speaker 1: for the entire VIE. Second largest dump in Vietnam. Yeah,

389
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: I think the only one bigger was the Air Force

390
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 1: dump in the name this is. This is like an

391
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Speaker 1: interesting case study as far as like if you were

392
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Speaker 1: to study like a rule of warfare, unconventional warfare or

393
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Speaker 1: something like that, that they were able to sneak in

394
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: there three times. Yeah, yeah, I have to wonder, you know,

395
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Speaker 1: going back to something you said earlier, how do you

396
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Speaker 1: balance out being a guy who is proud of your service,

397
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Speaker 1: is still working with you know, e O D Veterans Association,

398
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Speaker 1: and then at the same time, as you talked about earlier,

399
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Speaker 1: have ethical concerns with you know what type of weapons

400
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: we were using. Uh, You're gonna have to say that again.

401
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering, how do you balance out between being

402
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Speaker 1: a guy who's obviously and as you should be proud

403
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: of your service, writing a book, working with other EO

404
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Speaker 1: D veterans, and at the same time, as you expressed earlier,

405
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: you have ethical concerns with the type of weapons we're using. Well,

406
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't see any um, I don't see

407
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: any problem with those two things. Um. Uh Uh. The

408
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: guys I served with, I mean I sort of I

409
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 1: sort of saw us, or see us as having been

410
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: existential doctors. Um. Every time we disarmed or destroyed uh,

411
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: you know, bad ordinance or a booby trap or something

412
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: like that, we saved lives. Uh. One of the events

413
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: that I talked about in the book was where uh

414
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: we disarmed a bouncing betty that had been uh putting

415
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Speaker 1: the floor under some boards of a school, a school

416
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: for Christ's sake. Um. And the reason the VC did

417
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: that was because this village I had allowed a marine

418
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Speaker 1: cap team, a combined accent betune team to operate and

419
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: run ambushes out of their village. Um. And so because

420
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: of that the VC decided to punish them. Um and uh,

421
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: you know so, Yeah, and every time we took care

422
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Speaker 1: of like, for instance, you know, even you know, a

423
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Speaker 1: five hundred pound you know, air dropped bomb, you know,

424
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Speaker 1: if we blew it up the VC and weren't sawing

425
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: it in half and steaming out the explosives and making

426
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: homemade bombs with it. Yeah, and it's worth pointing out.

427
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: I know you're well aware of, Stuart more so than

428
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: I am, that e O D technicians continue to do

429
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: a lot of work in places like Loose and Burma, Cambodia,

430
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: diffusing these bombs that you know, kids are playing around them.

431
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: You know, the the UXO is just spread across the

432
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: countryside over there. It's terrible in Southeast Asia. Yeah. And

433
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: yet you were, you know, crazy enough to extend your

434
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: deployment to Vietnam for what another six months? Yeah? Well,

435
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: what what made you want to stay? I mean it

436
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: wasn't because you guy, You had these great guys you

437
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: worked with. Yeah, it was you know, the men that

438
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: I served with, and the adrenaline. I mean, you have

439
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: thought of coming back to the States, Uh, and being

440
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: on a state side team seemed like kind of a

441
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: boring proposition, and I would have extended again, except that

442
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: I was knee five with a lot of time in grade,

443
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: and they told me I had to go back to

444
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: school for nuclear weapons. So yeah, I would have stayed

445
00:30:54,440 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: longer and eventually you didn't have to come home, of course.

446
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: Um what what was that like? Was there any thoughts

447
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: about staying in the military or was after Vietnam you're

448
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: kind of yeah, there was. I ended up on a

449
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: team in Ohio and we were located on an old

450
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: arsenal and I had re enlisted once already, and yeah,

451
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: I was thinking of making it a career. Um and

452
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: uh uh they actually the career counselor had to go

453
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: down to Fort Campbell actually talked to me about re

454
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: enlisting in um. Uh, the possibility of me going to

455
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: the prep school for West Point, which at that time

456
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: was at Fort Belvoir, Virginia, And I thought about that.

457
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: Um they offered me six and then I decided that, well,

458
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: they were doing a lot of drug testing back then,

459
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: and I was smoking weed and I knew that center

460
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: or later and I was going to have a bad

461
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: piss test and uh. And then I found out that

462
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: I could get out sooner if I was going back

463
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: to school. So that's what I did. And I mean,

464
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: you didn't just go to school, You went to George

465
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: Georgetown went to law school, right. Well, I actually got

466
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: my law degree. At the time, it was called the

467
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: Franklin Pierce Law Center in conquered New Hampshire is now

468
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: the University of New Hampshire School of Law. And uh.

469
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: During my third year of law school, my constitutional law

470
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: professor in the demon of the law school had submitted

471
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: my name for this graduate teaching fellowship at Georgetown and

472
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: I ended up getting that. So I taught at Georgetown

473
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: in the clinical program for two years and instead of

474
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: paying us more money, they let us work on advanced

475
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: law degrees. The adjunct high jinks that universe. So I

476
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: ended up with the Masters in Law in administrative law.

477
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: So why law? I mean, was this an effort to

478
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: get marijuana legalized or no? Um? Uh, how it actually

479
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: happened is actually pretty funny. Um. I had my b

480
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: A and uh, I was living with a bunch of people,

481
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: including the woman I eventually ended up marrying uh in

482
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: in d C. And uh to excuse me, two of

483
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: our roommates, we're law students We were getting high one

484
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: night and one of them said, oh, you should take

485
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: the law school aptitude tests and go to law school

486
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: while it was the next day and I said, Uh,

487
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: aren't you supposed to take a course or something like that?

488
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: And he said, yeah, just go. It's somebody want to

489
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: show up and you'll be able to get in. And

490
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: that's what happened. UM. I took the test and UH

491
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 1: got pretty high scores. UM and I ended up actually

492
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 1: picking Franklin Pierce because they offered me a scholarship for

493
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: my first year. I think I may have been their

494
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:24,919
Speaker 1: first Vietnam veteran. UM. Interesting. Yeah, and then from two

495
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,280
Speaker 1: thousand three you specialized in capital murder as a criminal

496
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: defense investigator. I'm wondering how you got into that. Well,

497
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 1: we were living in Michigan and I had hooked up

498
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: with another Vietnam guy who was a recon marine and

499
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: Steve and I UH had a contract with the Michigan

500
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 1: Indigent Defense Services to do investigations UH in UH for

501
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: defense lawyers who were handling homicide cases in most of

502
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: no in Michigan. And so when we left in UH September,

503
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 1: we ended up in Oregon out here in the high desert.

504
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 1: UH and mostly because we had friends that had a

505
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: place uh near where I live now in Maddres, Oregon,

506
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: UH that they only used a couple of times a

507
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: year for skiing or golf or whatnot. And they said, what,

508
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 1: you guys can stay there, just pay the utilities. And

509
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: and so when I first got here, I ended up

510
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: actually working uh for uh a lawyer in Bend, UH

511
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 1: doing legal research and stuff like that. And somehow during

512
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: that process I met a criminal defense attorney from Madras

513
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: and I went to work for him, mostly doing you know,

514
00:35:55,320 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: felony stuff, you know, misdemeanors whatever. And I ended up

515
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: UH with a partner UH and UH we ended up

516
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 1: one of our cases took us over to core of

517
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 1: Allis where Oregon State is, and UH we had this

518
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: wild uh sex crimes case and UH and basically because

519
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: of our investigation, the defendant was found not guilty. And

520
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: an attorney who was part of the capital defenders had

521
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 1: been in the courtroom the day you know, the jury

522
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 1: came in with the not guilty verdicts, and he basically

523
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: asked us if we'd be interested in working on capital

524
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 1: cases and we said sure. So I ended up we

525
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: ended up actually with an office over there, and we

526
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: were living over there at part time, going back and

527
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: forth over the mountains. Um. They were they were complicated

528
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: and very complex cases. And I'm, you know, glad to

529
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: say that him. None of my capital clients was sentenced

530
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 1: to death. Can you talk about some of those cases

531
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,919
Speaker 1: now that they've been you know, prosecuted and everything. Well,

532
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: I guess the one you know that I remember the

533
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: most would be the last one that I worked on. Um.

534
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: This was a case where my client and his buddy

535
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 1: killed this guy who was uh some kind of martem

536
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:39,919
Speaker 1: up with the local newspaper and uh it turned out

537
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 1: that this guy had been abusing young boys and the

538
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: co defendant was one of those boys. Sh It, So

539
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 1: he and my client uh went to this guy's house,

540
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: and the co defendant confronted the guy and told him

541
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,760
Speaker 1: if he didn't give him some money and any pictures

542
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: or videos or whatnot that he had of them, um,

543
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 1: he was going to go to the cops. And so

544
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: he attacked the kid, and my guy, who was waiting

545
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: in the garage heard the ruckus ran in and and

546
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: this guy was huge to defend the victim. He was

547
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 1: I think six seven or six eight and waged about

548
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:29,479
Speaker 1: three d and fifty pounds. My guy, uh was maybe

549
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 1: six too and probably waged but he was buff. I mean,

550
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:40,240
Speaker 1: this guy was a weightlifter, and he ended up dragging

551
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: this guy off of the other kid and ended up

552
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 1: stabbing him something at sixty five times something like that.

553
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: So uh uh, how we won this case was when

554
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,479
Speaker 1: we finally got into the crime scene, which was about

555
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: a week after the cops had done their thing. Uh,

556
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 1: the other investigator and I, because each defendant had their

557
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,720
Speaker 1: own investigator, and Mike and I became really good friends

558
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: because of this case. Uh. We were searching different parts

559
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: of the house, and the state's case had always been

560
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 1: that this was about a robbery and uh, but we

561
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 1: noticed that things like the guy's wallet, which had cash

562
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: in it, was still on the dresser, and there were

563
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: all kinds of expensive items around the house, um that

564
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 1: hadn't been taken, cameras and video gear and whatnot. Anyway,

565
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: so I'm out in the garage and I'm kind of

566
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: doing my thing, you know, I'm doing a three sixty

567
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 1: one way and on three sixty the other way, and

568
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 1: then I looked up and I saw a trapdoor in

569
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,320
Speaker 1: the ceiling of the garage. So I pulled up the

570
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,760
Speaker 1: the return on the search warrant and I'm looking for trapdoor, trapdoor, trapdoor.

571
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: There's nothing there. So I got a ladder, I pulled

572
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 1: it down, got up into this attic over the garage,

573
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 1: turned on my flashlight and discovered this guy's pedophilia cash

574
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 1: Holy sh it, videos Uh young boys underwear, Uh dildoz,

575
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 1: I mean, what the fuck? Yeah. So, you know, we

576
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: unloaded all this stuff, and the state we notified him

577
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 1: about it. They tried to force us to turn it

578
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,919
Speaker 1: all over to them, and of course our lawyers told

579
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: the judge that that ain't happening, and the judge basically said, yeah,

580
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 1: you're right, that's not happening. You know, the cops should

581
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 1: have found this stuff. So this dude was a serial predator.

582
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: I mean he he had. I mean, was there any

583
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: idea how many victims? There were dozens? Oh my god. Yeah.

584
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:04,320
Speaker 1: And there were like, I don't know, a hundred and

585
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: something videos of mostly homosexual stuff, you know, men on men,

586
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: men on boys, and there were eight millimeter videos to

587
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: he had been filming, you know, Uh, some of his encounters.

588
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 1: Was this dude, like I had school teacher. Was this

589
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,720
Speaker 1: guy like a school teacher or a soccer coach or something.

590
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: It was like the classified editor for the Albany, Oregon newspaper.

591
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: It was a fairly good sized paper for that party

592
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: of Oregon. And he was just grabbing kids off the

593
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 1: streets or something. No, he was meeting them, uh like

594
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: by being uh football coach or a little league coach,

595
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And some of them were street kids too.

596
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: You know what I'm wondering you mentioned, and it ended

597
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 1: up uh that uh, once the evidence came in, you

598
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 1: know our evidence. Uh, the jury ended up finding my

599
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: guy not guilty of everything, including stealing the victim's card. Good. Well,

600
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: what I was gonna say, I'm I'm wondering though, is

601
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: you spoke earlier about the adrenaline rush of being in Vietnam?

602
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: Is an e O? D Are you just a guy

603
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 1: who's addicted to that adrenaline rush, whether it's you know

604
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 1: this scantling bombs are taking down predators like this? Yeah, Um,

605
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:39,359
Speaker 1: I think that's fair to say. Um. The capital work

606
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 1: was very exciting and often dangerous because a lot of

607
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: times the people we were looking for weren't much better

608
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: than the guy we were defending. Um. You know, one

609
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: of the things about a capital case in Oregon is

610
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: there are two trials. First there's the guilt and renis

611
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 1: his trial, and then there's the death penalty trial. So

612
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:05,919
Speaker 1: you would try to track down people who knew your

613
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 1: guy and hopefully, you know, they would be able to

614
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 1: tell you something good. You know, it's something that would

615
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,439
Speaker 1: save your client's life because you only needed one juror

616
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: to hold out. Going back to the thing I mentioned about,

617
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: you know, ethical concerns with weapons. Did you have any

618
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 1: ethical concerns with that job? Nope? Nope. Yeah, weapons. It

619
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: sounds like you're taking down some dirt bags in this case. Uh,

620
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: pretty straightforward. But I mean you said you work, the

621
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 1: work was dangerous. I mean I imagine you came across

622
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 1: what like outlaw biker gangs and stuff like that. Yeah.

623
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: Actually I did have a case that involved outlaw bikers. Um.

624
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: And uh this was up in h Classic County. I'm

625
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: in uh a northwest corner of Oregon. And this guy,

626
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: this is very interesting, was a stone cold white supremacist,

627
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: neo Nazi whatever. And uh, I remember when I first

628
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: met him and he said something. He said, Steinberg are

629
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,479
Speaker 1: you Jewish, I said, yeah, and I and he said

630
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: that's interesting. And I said, well, Jude, I'm gonna do

631
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: what I came to save your life. And we did.

632
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:28,399
Speaker 1: We did save his life. Um, so you know, maybe

633
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 1: that had some effect on his inherent anti Semitism. Might

634
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: not know, uh and uh, but he and I actually

635
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: ended up getting along really well, that's great. That reminds

636
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: me of you know, if you've ever seen American History X,

637
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: like where these guys are jailed together, you know, like

638
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 1: a black guy being in the same cell as a

639
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: white supremacist and at some point like you're gonna have

640
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 1: to communicate with this guy, You're gonna have to find

641
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: something that you could get along on. And I think

642
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: sometimes out of that lack of of being able to

643
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 1: find an alternative, you realize, hey, we're not all that different. Yeah. Yeah, well,

644
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 1: at that point it's uh, it literally is kind of

645
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:19,399
Speaker 1: a do or die moment. Yeah. Um. And then from there,

646
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 1: as we mentioned earlier two thousand nine to two thousand

647
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 1: and ten, working for the UN Office on Drugs and

648
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: Crime as an advisor to the Afghan Border Police, training

649
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: the a p B personnel and the conduct of counter

650
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 1: narcotics operations along the border of if we were on

651
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,720
Speaker 1: another high a frontaline job. Yeah, and how that happened

652
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: was UM, one of my good friends who's retired UH

653
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: Army major ranger, UM multiple tours in the Balkans War, UM,

654
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 1: the First Gulf War and then Afghanistan. When Tony retired,

655
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: UM after being an Afghanistan for about eighteen months, UM,

656
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: he took over this program that U n o d c.

657
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 1: Was running where UH they were training the Afghan border

658
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: police and doing counter narcotics operations and UH at that time,

659
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: I was working as a veterans claims officer for a

660
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: group called Central Oregon Veterans Outreach, UH strictly a volunteer

661
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: kind of thing. And UH, I'm in the office one

662
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 1: day in my cell phone rings and I'm looking at

663
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: it and it's got like nineteen numbers, kind of going

664
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: what the know is is? And it was Tony and

665
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 1: he says, UH, I need you to come to Afghanistan.

666
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: And I said, well, he said, well, they keep sending

667
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: meet people who don't want to do the job. UM,

668
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,439
Speaker 1: they would do the class work and then they were

669
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 1: they would not UH, they wouldn't go out on operations, um,

670
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: because it was dangerous and they were bunch of chicken

671
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,839
Speaker 1: chips and uh. So you know, I talked it over

672
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: with my wife and my son and they said okay

673
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:13,320
Speaker 1: and uh and I went, so what did the job involved?

674
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 1: Then you you went out there and train them and

675
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 1: then you had to go out into the field of

676
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 1: these guys. We uh I taught courses and improvised explosive devices,

677
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: ordinance identification, tactical convoy movement, and searches of people, places

678
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 1: and things, um. And then we would help them develop intelligence.

679
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: And one of the ways we did that was by

680
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 1: going out uh into basically the desert and meeting with

681
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:48,959
Speaker 1: the sure as, the councils of these nomadic tribes people

682
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: and we would because they were very concerned that a

683
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: lot of their young men were getting involved in drug

684
00:47:55,200 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 1: trafficking because of what they were getting paid to run

685
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: these drugs over the border into Iran and uh and

686
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 1: what we would do is we would find out you

687
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: know what they needed, you know, a well better cell

688
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: phone service, and we would try to get that stuff

689
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 1: to them. In one case, we delivered sixty metric tons

690
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 1: of food supplies in this one district that was really

691
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: in bad shape food wise, and by doing that, than

692
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:31,279
Speaker 1: people would give us good intelligence and then we would

693
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: help the a bp UH you know, plan the interdiction

694
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: operation and you know, we'd go out with them and

695
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: stop the bad guys and sees the drugs. And you know,

696
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 1: this is an interesting topic. I wanted to mention with

697
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: you because you have this UM service from Vietnam to Afghanistan,

698
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,720
Speaker 1: and I wanted to know if you have any observations

699
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: about improvised explosive devices between the two conflicts, and if

700
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,720
Speaker 1: they've changed, if it became a lot more sophisticated in Afghanistan.

701
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 1: I ended up actually discarning a device that unfortunately I

702
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: figured out how to discern it before picking it up,

703
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 1: because I eventually found out, you know when I sent

704
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:19,479
Speaker 1: UH technical intelligence stuff back to the Hazards Devices School

705
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 1: the Redstone Arsenal, that it hadn't any and anti lift device, UM,

706
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:30,959
Speaker 1: very sophisticated, and all of the parts inside this little

707
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 1: box about you know, this big UH came from Radio

708
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: Shack and that was that the trigger mechanism, yeah, the

709
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 1: detonator yeah, and so they had like fail safe built

710
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 1: into them, and like you said, anti tampering devices yea, yeah,

711
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 1: who do you how do you think they learned to

712
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 1: do all this stuff? I mean, I've been to Afghanistan, um,

713
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 1: but in a different region. I mean there, it's pretty

714
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 1: bronze age out there, you know. I mean where do

715
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 1: you think they were acquiring something? Were being trained at

716
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 1: Iran about sixty clicks over the border from islam Calla,

717
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: which was the border crossing up in the northwest. We

718
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,880
Speaker 1: knew that camp was there. Why we didn't bombit is

719
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 1: beyond me. You know, they didn't want upset the Iranians.

720
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:29,760
Speaker 1: I don't know what the deal was. This is also

721
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,240
Speaker 1: you know, there was another place in the same area

722
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: in Iran where they were making e f P s

723
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: explosively foreign penetrators and these were just killing people left

724
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 1: and right. And uh this was like the I r

725
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: g C. It was like the Iranian government that was

726
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: training them to do this. Uh yeah. And of course

727
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: that was completely at odds with the Iranians position on

728
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: narconics UM because at the same time they're counting arconics guys.

729
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: Over the years, at least by the time I got there,

730
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:12,800
Speaker 1: they have lost a couple of thousands UH narcotics cops

731
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: in UH gunfights and whatever, you know, with the people

732
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 1: that were you know, making these devices and smuggling the

733
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 1: drugs over the border, and nothing happens in Iran where

734
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: the I r g C is not involved, especially if

735
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,839
Speaker 1: it involves money. Yeah, and it's interesting too because at

736
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 1: least my understanding of it is, you know, let's let's

737
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 1: take our own government by for example, like the CIA,

738
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 1: if they were to run a covert operation, U S

739
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 1: taxpayers would fund that covert operation through official channels, right,

740
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 1: official governmental channels that funded I've been told that with Iran,

741
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 1: with the I r g C or kodes Force or

742
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: one of those, that they will say they will approve

743
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,839
Speaker 1: a covert operation, and then the Iranian government will tell

744
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 1: that unit, okay, now fund it. Like you have to

745
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:02,439
Speaker 1: find funding. And maybe maybe that's through trafficking drugs. Maybe

746
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 1: that's to be um maritime shipping through some other illicit

747
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 1: business to fund that operation they've assigned. Yeah, it could be.

748
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, No, I don't either. I'm just

749
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 1: speculating in this case as well as what may have

750
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:23,359
Speaker 1: been happening, you know, in the overall scheme of things.

751
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 1: I mean, we didn't even put a dent in the problem.

752
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 1: During the time I was there, Um, you know, we

753
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 1: probably seized several hundred metric tons um of you know,

754
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 1: either opium or heroine excuse me. And but at this

755
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 1: point two thousand nine and ten, I think you know,

756
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 1: they were manufacturing something like eight or nine thousand metric

757
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: tons uh a year. So what we took care of,

758
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:02,320
Speaker 1: uh was basically just scratched in the service. But I

759
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 1: just figured that every every kilo of this stuff that

760
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: we kept out of the system meant that maybe somebody's

761
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:14,879
Speaker 1: kid wasn't overdosing and dying. Before we wrap things up here,

762
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: any last story that you can maybe give us from

763
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 1: this is what hell looks like. People on the show

764
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 1: love to hear those great war stories, and I know

765
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:32,720
Speaker 1: there's a lot in the book. Well, h the first chapter, Uh,

766
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:39,320
Speaker 1: it's about a hundred and first base called fire support

767
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 1: based Rifle and uh it got overrun and and it's

768
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 1: where the title of the book came from. When my

769
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 1: partner and I were overflying the base. Um, you know

770
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: the destruction, the carnage, I mean it was right there

771
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 1: your face. Um. And this was a small outpost maybe uh,

772
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 1: you know, a company of hundred first guys, an artillery

773
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 1: unit and some Vietnameese army guys, probably not more than

774
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:22,839
Speaker 1: two people that got hit by a reinforced regiment um

775
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 1: and uh as we were flying over it, and I

776
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:29,320
Speaker 1: turned to Paul and I said, dude, this is what

777
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 1: hell looks like. And that's where the title of the

778
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 1: book came from. A lot of audience is going to

779
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 1: pick it up. Huh. I know a lot of our

780
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 1: audience is gonna want to pick it up. So, yeah,

781
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 1: it was. It was a weird event because the actual

782
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 1: title of that chapter is um. I remember right as

783
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 1: fire support based right of the day, it was Reigning

784
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: Dead UM. And what that relates to is what they

785
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: did with the bodies of the dead NBA soldiers is

786
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: they basically put them all on the sling and flew

787
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,440
Speaker 1: them out over the jungle and dumped them from the air,

788
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 1: which is a work ring. That's wild. Yeah, it's difficult

789
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 1: to imagine. I mean there were uh three different gunfights

790
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,360
Speaker 1: that broke out while we were there, including as we

791
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 1: were landing. I mean, as soon as we got on

792
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: the ground, we were in the middle of a pitch battle. Uh.

793
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:29,879
Speaker 1: A patrol that had gone out of the perimeter had

794
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 1: gotten hit by an ambush uh and uh. And then

795
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 1: during the rest of the day, Yeah, there were two

796
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:42,320
Speaker 1: more events like that, our patrols had gone out and

797
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: gotten hit. Um. So it was uh, yeah, it was something. Well,

798
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 1: let me ask you in one more question, what brought

799
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 1: you full circle in a sense to come back and

800
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 1: decide that you wanted to write a book the same thing?

801
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: Um to you know, reflect back on your pretty extensive

802
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:07,839
Speaker 1: career and write about all these things. M hmm. Well, um,

803
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 1: I felt like I had something to say. You know.

804
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,320
Speaker 1: The process of going from actually starting to work on

805
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:23,880
Speaker 1: it until publication was took about ten years. I had

806
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 1: actually started writing it differently, much differently than the way

807
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: it's ended up now. And I got about maybe halfway

808
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,800
Speaker 1: through it, and one day I was reading it and

809
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 1: I was thinking, then mistakes, I don't like this, and

810
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,879
Speaker 1: I literally ship candid. I don't even have a copy

811
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 1: of uh and uh. And I started over and I

812
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 1: was fortunate that I found a lot of historical stuff

813
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 1: at the National Archives um um daily incident logs and

814
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 1: the teams I was on. Unusual incident reports like the

815
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 1: one I wrote up about rifle uh and after action reports,

816
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 1: uh from you know, the daily journals, daily staff journals

817
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 1: for infantry units that we were out with, UM and uh.

818
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 1: And it was also kind of a It was also

819
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 1: I think of Catharsis for me, you know, being able

820
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:34,920
Speaker 1: to you know, say what I had to say and

821
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 1: UM kind of like I guess, uh, I felt better afterwards.

822
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 1: In the process of doing that research for your book.

823
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 1: I mean, really, you're researching your own history in your

824
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 1: own life. Were there any things you discovered unexpected or

825
00:57:55,840 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 1: things about operations that you're like, WHOA, I didn't know that. Yeah.

826
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 1: There's a chapter in the book called uh Elz Sally

827
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 1: the battle raged all around us And when I recovered

828
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 1: the unusual incident report about this particular event, uh where

829
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:21,600
Speaker 1: my seal and I have gone out with a pink

830
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: team from a hundred and first not gonna arrow rifle tune.

831
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:30,480
Speaker 1: A chinook had gotten hit flying AMMO into a remote

832
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 1: base and it jettison a slang load of unconventional ordinance

833
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 1: M one five rounds that when they were fired, opened

834
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 1: up and little bomblets came out cluster unitions, cluster bombs. Yeah,

835
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 1: and of course these are really dangerous items. UM and

836
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:55,160
Speaker 1: line as short of it was. You know, we end

837
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:58,440
Speaker 1: up setting the shot after gathering up all this crowd,

838
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:03,080
Speaker 1: and it was me, my CEO, the platoon leader, and

839
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 1: his r t O. And he had sent the rest

840
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 1: of the Pink team back to secure the LZ. And

841
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 1: right when we're getting ready to pull the shot, all

842
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 1: of a sudden, we're in the middle of a gun battle.

843
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 1: Um and we were actually behind this huge pilot ordinance

844
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 1: firing back at the enemy and uh, you know, with

845
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 1: everything we had and and uh and they broke off contact.

846
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 1: We pulled the shot. We've all asked down the trail,

847
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:34,920
Speaker 1: and we get down the trail and we can hear

848
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 1: somewhere up ahead of us, about a half a click

849
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 1: or whatever, the Pink team, the rest of the Pink team,

850
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 1: they get ambushed. So now there's this other gun battle

851
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 1: we're running into and you can't retreat back to the charge.

852
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 1: You should go back because the shot was cooking off.

853
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:54,479
Speaker 1: So we eventually, you know, they were able to stave

854
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:58,920
Speaker 1: off this ambush, and uh and we ended up getting

855
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 1: extracted and the shot went clean. And uh, so I'm

856
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:08,280
Speaker 1: reading this report. I have no memory at that time,

857
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 1: no memory of this event, having occurred. So I called

858
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 1: up my former CEO, Andy Brelan, who unfortunately has passed away,

859
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 1: and I said, Andy, I'm gonna read you something. So

860
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 1: I read him this page and a half long thing

861
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 1: and he says, I don't remember that, And I said, dude,

862
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 1: you wrote it. And this supports my theory, which I

863
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 1: referred to as Kelly Bundy brain. You know from uh

864
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 1: married with children. Well, the brain is only capable of

865
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 1: handling so much ship and you one point, at some point,

866
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 1: you get to the place where your brain is full.

867
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 1: So the next thing that you get or whatever that

868
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:00,960
Speaker 1: you're going to retain, means that you've got to get

869
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:05,560
Speaker 1: rid of something else. So, you know, I'm guessing that's

870
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 1: what happened. I think it's just like something to do

871
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 1: with evolutionary biology that you're so overwhelmed that your brain

872
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 1: decides what the focus on to get you out of

873
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 1: the immediate situation. Yeah. I mean even to a you know,

874
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,920
Speaker 1: totally different extent here. But I always think about, you know, now,

875
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 1: with technology, with cell phones, with how little we have

876
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 1: to memorize. I mean, how many people's numbers do you

877
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 1: have memorized? Three? I can remember my home phone number

878
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 1: from when I was a little kid and we had

879
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 1: rotary phone still but but everybody remembers, like at least

880
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:41,919
Speaker 1: if you know you're our age or older, like ste

881
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:44,880
Speaker 1: when you know, you know, you had a crushed on

882
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 1: some girl and you got her number, and you know,

883
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 1: like the middle school before. You gotta remember those digits,

884
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 1: you would you would remember those and it would be

885
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 1: you know now, I I, how many times have you

886
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 1: and I said, what's the bathroom code again? Which is

887
01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 1: four digits? So we can't remember my Sun and I

888
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 1: talked at least you know, us a week twice a week.

889
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:03,919
Speaker 1: I don't. I couldn't tell you his phone number. Yeah,

890
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 1: it's I agree with your theory. I think it. It

891
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:09,200
Speaker 1: works in other ways, but I think for what you're

892
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 1: talking about, it also probably has to do with the

893
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 1: traumatic experience as well. I'm sure. Yeah, so it's one

894
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 1: more time. I want to read the title of the

895
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:23,520
Speaker 1: book of Steuze. Stu's book it's called This Is What

896
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:26,640
Speaker 1: Hell looks Like Life as a bomb disposal specialist during

897
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 1: the Vietnam War and uh stew this has been super interesting.

898
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:32,960
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

899
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 1: Well thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah, thanks,

900
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:37,160
Speaker 1: and I think we'll be able to talk some more

901
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 1: at some point, so really appreciate. Yeah, yeah, you'd be

902
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:41,440
Speaker 1: more than welcome come on any time you want, and

903
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 1: will make it happen. All right, sounds good. Well, hopefully

904
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:48,760
Speaker 1: i'll have this pinchon nerve taking care of by then. Yeah. Absolutely.

905
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:51,720
Speaker 1: I hope you're all right, uh and hanging in there,

906
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 1: and I'll put this up tomorrow and send it over

907
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 1: to you. All right, great, awesome, Thanks so much, Stu. Yeah,

908
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:01,400
Speaker 1: thanks to have a nice afternoon. Thank you, see, take care.

909
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 1: That was great man, A great suggestion from Mike Vining. Yeah, yeah, no,

910
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 1: that was super interesting. You know, I haven't read stews

911
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:13,800
Speaker 1: book yet, so I didn't really know much of what

912
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 1: to expect other than that he was a NEO D

913
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:19,640
Speaker 1: tech in Vietnam. Um, those are some incredible stories though. Yeah,

914
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:22,400
Speaker 1: but even just looking at his bio before reading the book,

915
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's so much so I mean, and

916
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 1: then even the stories after being an e O D.

917
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 1: We're pretty insane. The you know, basically the working as

918
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:39,880
Speaker 1: a sorry, working as a criminal defense investigator for capital

919
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 1: murder cases pretty insane. Um. I do have some emails

920
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 1: I want to get to before I do, I want

921
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 1: to talk about Great Club. Jack and I were talking

922
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 1: about earlier the videos up of you know, things being

923
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:53,600
Speaker 1: sent out, so I know there was a bit of

924
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 1: a delay there. But now we have everything being sent

925
01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:59,200
Speaker 1: out and they're doing an awesome job. So the long

926
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:03,760
Speaker 1: anticipated collaboration watch with NFW Watches that's being sent out

927
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:06,360
Speaker 1: in the next premium crate. We have different tiers of

928
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 1: membership depending on how prepared you want to be, and

929
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 1: gift options are available as well. Scott Whittner has been

930
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:14,760
Speaker 1: talking to me about all the great stuff that we

931
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 1: have coming as the new year is approaching pretty soon really,

932
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:23,840
Speaker 1: and it's a lot of custom products and it's gear

933
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 1: hand picked for you, um and you know, it's a

934
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:30,800
Speaker 1: club fore men by men, and that's what we're doing.

935
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 1: You can check that all out of Create Club dot Us.

936
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 1: Once again, that's Great Club dot Us. Scott Whittner is

937
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:37,720
Speaker 1: doing an awesome job. You guys have heard him on

938
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:40,760
Speaker 1: the show before. Former Marine editor of the load out

939
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 1: Room load at room dot com. Now for your dog owners,

940
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943
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944
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946
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948
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949
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950
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951
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Speaker 1: sign up um and then as a reminder, you can

952
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:23,320
Speaker 1: check out the spec ops Channel. Spec ops channel dot

953
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:27,720
Speaker 1: com training seller is on there. UM also the inside

954
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:30,000
Speaker 1: the team rooms that we've done, whether it's the Navy

955
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:33,160
Speaker 1: Seal Army Rangers cut from the same cloth, those are

956
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:35,919
Speaker 1: all up on their spec Ops channel dot com. Take

957
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Speaker 1: advantage of a limited time offer of a subscription for

958
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959
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:44,800
Speaker 1: the app, and we have the app now for software Radio,

960
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:47,919
Speaker 1: which Chris did an awesome job on. So check out

961
01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:51,600
Speaker 1: software radio dot com. Check out the software Radio app

962
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:54,280
Speaker 1: that's available now if you have an iPhone, I know

963
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 1: the Android is gonna be up in pretty much no time. Um.

964
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:00,840
Speaker 1: Very cool, but I want to get into emails because

965
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:03,520
Speaker 1: we had a few really good ones. Sorry, I'm a

966
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:07,880
Speaker 1: little congested today. I don't know why, but here we go.

967
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 1: Or say it's the weather moving in. Yeah, probably, Um,

968
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 1: all right, I'll go with the shorter one first. This

969
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:18,080
Speaker 1: is from Sean. Hey. Uh, this is from Sean from

970
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:20,640
Speaker 1: in Atlanta. I don't want to pull name him unless

971
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 1: he wants to do it. Uh, Sean says, Hey, guys,

972
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:26,400
Speaker 1: I was wondering if someone could explain some of the

973
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:30,920
Speaker 1: similarities and differences between mac vi SAG and the Phoenix

974
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:34,760
Speaker 1: program versus modern units like Omega teams and Task Force.

975
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:38,360
Speaker 1: I'm sure Jack has a really good answer for this one.

976
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 1: So yeah, the difference between MACVIE SAG and the Phoenix

977
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:44,959
Speaker 1: program versus modern units like Omega teams and task course

978
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 1: A eight pretty to the point. Well yeah, okay, it's

979
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 1: a short question, but I mean that's a really ill

980
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:55,440
Speaker 1: aford answer. Um. Okay, So, back during the Vietnam War,

981
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 1: you had MACVIE SAG, which was Military Assistance Command Vietnam

982
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:04,600
Speaker 1: s He's an observations group which was a endeavor that

983
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:09,120
Speaker 1: saw American Green Berets partnered up with UM. You know,

984
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 1: one or two Green Berets partnered up with four or five,

985
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:16,040
Speaker 1: maybe six mountain yards. I believe there was also Chinese

986
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:19,960
Speaker 1: Nung mercenaries in the Fold, and they would go across

987
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:22,600
Speaker 1: the fence, so to speak, into Laos and Cambodia and

988
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:27,400
Speaker 1: North Vietnam. Their primary function was to do reconnaissance operations.

989
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:32,240
Speaker 1: They also did things like sabotage diversions UM. There's some

990
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:38,360
Speaker 1: psychological operations run UM ambushes. They they did a prisoner

991
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:42,520
Speaker 1: snatches or attempted prisoner snatches UM to take people alive

992
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 1: for intelligence value. There's all sorts of different stuff they did. UM.

993
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:49,560
Speaker 1: It's very direct action kind of hands on UM, either

994
01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:53,640
Speaker 1: direct action or reconnaissance. The Phoenix program was a little

995
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:56,680
Speaker 1: different now as I recall, it was also a joint

996
01:07:57,000 --> 01:08:00,320
Speaker 1: endeavor with the c I a UM. And what had

997
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:02,680
Speaker 1: happened that the Phoenix program was more focused in South

998
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 1: Vietnam because the Viet Cong had established a shadow government

999
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:09,640
Speaker 1: in South Vietnam, so that you had this the actual

1000
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 1: official government, but then you had this secret Vietcong communist government.

1001
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:18,320
Speaker 1: And the Phoenix program was an attempt to neutralize that

1002
01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:23,040
Speaker 1: shadow government UM and and a counterinsurgency effort. UM. Some

1003
01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:27,000
Speaker 1: people have decried the Phoenix program as this like criminal

1004
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 1: assassination unit. UM. I mean whatever you want to say.

1005
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:33,400
Speaker 1: I mean, how the hell are you going to deal

1006
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:36,519
Speaker 1: with a communist shadow government? I mean you kind of

1007
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:38,439
Speaker 1: have to go out and whack some of these guys.

1008
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:43,680
Speaker 1: It is what it is. UM. Now, by comparison to that, UH,

1009
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:46,760
Speaker 1: he asks about OMEGA teams and Task Force AT eight,

1010
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:51,440
Speaker 1: which is more of our contemporary modern War on Terror timeframe.

1011
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:54,160
Speaker 1: Test Force A D eight was just one of the

1012
01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:57,439
Speaker 1: many names given to the task forces the special Joint

1013
01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:02,240
Speaker 1: Special Operations task Force UH UM that existed in our Iraq,

1014
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:04,559
Speaker 1: and you know we can we continue to have one

1015
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:07,320
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan. UM. I was a part of one of

1016
01:09:07,360 --> 01:09:14,360
Speaker 1: these task forces. UM. It combines UM, you know, Seal

1017
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:18,519
Speaker 1: Team six, Delta Forest Rangers, UM, some special Forces elements

1018
01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:21,439
Speaker 1: are brought into it, and some other different special mission

1019
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:24,960
Speaker 1: units are all brought into the fold. And UM. You know,

1020
01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:28,479
Speaker 1: primarily we were in the business of capturing and killing

1021
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 1: high value targets. So in that sense, I suppose you

1022
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:34,960
Speaker 1: could draw some parallels to some of the programs that

1023
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:38,640
Speaker 1: existed in Vietnam. Although there's there's so many differences to

1024
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:44,280
Speaker 1: dictated by the way technology has evolved institutionally and structurally,

1025
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:47,439
Speaker 1: how the military has changed since the nineteen sixties and

1026
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:52,640
Speaker 1: early seventies when Vietnam came to a close. UM, what

1027
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:57,960
Speaker 1: I say, UH terrain, UH, structure, and then the technologies

1028
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:00,599
Speaker 1: itself of course has evolved. There's of such thing as

1029
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:04,760
Speaker 1: a cell phone during Vietnam now, so the signals, intercepts

1030
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:09,959
Speaker 1: and everything else has dramatically changed. The way we're UM finding, fixing,

1031
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:15,080
Speaker 1: and finishing targets has changed dramatically since the Vietnam War. UM.

1032
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:18,160
Speaker 1: The other thing he asked about is Omega. UM. The

1033
01:10:18,240 --> 01:10:21,840
Speaker 1: Omega program, it's called something else now, but that is

1034
01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:26,800
Speaker 1: a CIA endeavor and the way that worked and continues

1035
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:29,920
Speaker 1: to work is it's a CIA program that sees active

1036
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:35,320
Speaker 1: duty military personnel seconded to the auspices of the Central

1037
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 1: Intelligence Agency. UM. So you will have UH usually it's

1038
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:45,320
Speaker 1: been Seal Team six members or rangers who have been

1039
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:49,400
Speaker 1: seconded to this program. And what they do is the

1040
01:10:49,520 --> 01:10:55,400
Speaker 1: Omega program specifically targeted foreign fighters in Afghanistan. So these

1041
01:10:55,439 --> 01:10:58,760
Speaker 1: arabs that come in from the Gulf States or Iranians,

1042
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:02,080
Speaker 1: whoever it is. Foreign fighters that come in Afghanistan, OMEGA

1043
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:06,080
Speaker 1: would target them quite specifically. And the military personnel. I mean,

1044
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:10,000
Speaker 1: the Omega teams were UM contractors a lot of times

1045
01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:14,800
Speaker 1: CIA contractors, but then these military personnel were seconded to them,

1046
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:19,320
Speaker 1: primarily so they can call in air support for the

1047
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:21,840
Speaker 1: for a c I A element. Because a c I

1048
01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:26,200
Speaker 1: A guy cannot call in UM air strikes. But now

1049
01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:28,760
Speaker 1: you have military personnel on the OMEGA team, they can

1050
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:31,960
Speaker 1: call in air strikes. UM. There was an article in

1051
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 1: the New York Times which is a very um mind

1052
01:11:36,120 --> 01:11:39,400
Speaker 1: bending article to read because it's it's like one of

1053
01:11:39,439 --> 01:11:41,559
Speaker 1: those things like the CIA wants you to know something,

1054
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 1: so they we get to the New York Times. The article,

1055
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:46,640
Speaker 1: the way it's written is really weird. But what they

1056
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:50,040
Speaker 1: were saying is that under the Trump administration, OMEGA has

1057
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:53,639
Speaker 1: been UM had their focus changed from just going after

1058
01:11:53,720 --> 01:11:58,000
Speaker 1: foreign fighters to going after UM, the Taliban, the indigenous

1059
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:02,360
Speaker 1: UM you know, guerilla though fighters, insurgents of Afghanistan and

1060
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:07,120
Speaker 1: going after not just foreign fighters but the actual taliban UM.

1061
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:10,599
Speaker 1: And how how that's working out, I I'm actually not sure.

1062
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 1: Off the top, of my head. But that's kind of

1063
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:15,280
Speaker 1: where we're at now. So there are similarities and there

1064
01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:18,559
Speaker 1: are differences between all of these units, um, and how

1065
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:23,040
Speaker 1: they work the legal framework, um, what the missions are,

1066
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:26,920
Speaker 1: and um again, I think a lot has changed between

1067
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:31,640
Speaker 1: these elements from Vietnam to today because of military structure,

1068
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 1: because of the technology, and because one war was fought

1069
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:36,400
Speaker 1: in the jungle and the other was fought in the

1070
01:12:36,439 --> 01:12:38,960
Speaker 1: desert and in the cities. So there are some pretty

1071
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:43,960
Speaker 1: big differences. Um, that's a lot of information. Like, that's

1072
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:46,599
Speaker 1: that great answer. That's a fucking thesis paper right there.

1073
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:50,040
Speaker 1: Like you could write your PhD uh dissertation on that subject.

1074
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:53,240
Speaker 1: Jack Murphy, dropping knowledge. But that's that's the long and

1075
01:12:53,320 --> 01:12:56,040
Speaker 1: short of it, you know, all right. Um, I like

1076
01:12:56,200 --> 01:12:57,920
Speaker 1: this one. This one's a little longer, but it did

1077
01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:00,880
Speaker 1: make me laugh. This is from Jack White uh Ian

1078
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:04,560
Speaker 1: and Jack. First off, I love this. It's rebrushing to

1079
01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:08,040
Speaker 1: get some quality news mixed with comedy rather than listening

1080
01:13:08,120 --> 01:13:11,880
Speaker 1: to the Bukhaki. The mainstream media feeds my generation, and

1081
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:15,439
Speaker 1: I'm a feeling this audience knows what that means. If not,

1082
01:13:16,200 --> 01:13:20,040
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna explain. Google. Google is your friend. Folks. Yeah,

1083
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:24,519
Speaker 1: but not not safe for work that um second. For

1084
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:27,759
Speaker 1: a while now, I've been inching towards joining the military,

1085
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:31,120
Speaker 1: whether it be the Army, Navy, or Marines. I cannot

1086
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:34,040
Speaker 1: decide where I would best fit. I would like some

1087
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:37,599
Speaker 1: clear advice on what the pros think, y'all being the pros,

1088
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:40,240
Speaker 1: I'm certainly not a pro. Maybe Jack. I am married

1089
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:42,519
Speaker 1: with a five month old son. I'm in shape, just

1090
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:46,120
Speaker 1: built like a ship brickhouse, built to move heavyweight. Thus,

1091
01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:49,679
Speaker 1: I have been a multi time state powerlifter. That's pretty cool.

1092
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:52,360
Speaker 1: I'm able to get my stamina above part to meet

1093
01:13:52,400 --> 01:13:55,559
Speaker 1: the majority of requirements. I've just caught between sitting down

1094
01:13:55,680 --> 01:13:58,479
Speaker 1: with the wife and taking the next step or constantly

1095
01:13:58,560 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 1: being unsatisfied with a regular twelve hour a day job.

1096
01:14:02,439 --> 01:14:05,679
Speaker 1: I know I want to UH to serve a purpose

1097
01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:08,160
Speaker 1: larger than myself. I have a great job and a

1098
01:14:08,200 --> 01:14:11,800
Speaker 1: comfortable life, but I constantly seek more gratification for my work.

1099
01:14:12,280 --> 01:14:14,439
Speaker 1: My goal, if I am the plunge into this world

1100
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:18,680
Speaker 1: is too is too is to spend UH whatever time

1101
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:22,240
Speaker 1: necessary to put myself way beyond the physical standard and

1102
01:14:22,439 --> 01:14:26,599
Speaker 1: quality for special forces. I'm sufficiently educated and level headed

1103
01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:30,479
Speaker 1: enough to learn most anything, any advice on what may

1104
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:34,479
Speaker 1: make the choices and transformations easier and the path have

1105
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:36,720
Speaker 1: a little more quarity. And then he writes, you guys

1106
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:39,800
Speaker 1: are the ship always blow the Joe Rogan experience out

1107
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:41,760
Speaker 1: of the water. That's a pretty high compliment. I don't

1108
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:45,559
Speaker 1: know if I agree with that, uh, because this guy

1109
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:48,960
Speaker 1: seems interesting. At the same time, I'm gonna say has

1110
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:51,760
Speaker 1: a pretty high opinion of himself. But I like it. Yeah.

1111
01:14:52,200 --> 01:14:54,960
Speaker 1: I mean it's like I'm tough, I learned anything. What

1112
01:14:55,040 --> 01:15:00,360
Speaker 1: do I do well? Self confidence is a good start. Um. Yeah.

1113
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:02,280
Speaker 1: People ask me this kind of question all the time,

1114
01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:05,160
Speaker 1: and I mean there's no real answer because it depends

1115
01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:07,840
Speaker 1: on you as a person, Like people should I be

1116
01:15:07,960 --> 01:15:10,080
Speaker 1: for Srikon or a Navy seal? I mean, I don't know,

1117
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:14,080
Speaker 1: it depends on you. Um. I think the question you

1118
01:15:14,160 --> 01:15:17,080
Speaker 1: really have to answer is what do you want to do? Um?

1119
01:15:17,560 --> 01:15:19,240
Speaker 1: You know, once you know what you want to do,

1120
01:15:20,080 --> 01:15:22,200
Speaker 1: then you have a much better idea of what you

1121
01:15:22,280 --> 01:15:24,479
Speaker 1: want to do in the military or what branch you

1122
01:15:24,560 --> 01:15:27,479
Speaker 1: want to go into. Um. You know, do you want

1123
01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:30,519
Speaker 1: to do? Do you like do you like to swim?

1124
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:34,439
Speaker 1: If not? You know, Yeah, don't be a seal. You know,

1125
01:15:35,080 --> 01:15:37,360
Speaker 1: it's just I'm not trying to be a smart ass,

1126
01:15:37,439 --> 01:15:39,920
Speaker 1: but like, do you want to go overseas and work

1127
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:43,000
Speaker 1: with far in foreign cultures, with foreign people, and special

1128
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:45,680
Speaker 1: Forces is probably a good option for you, even though

1129
01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:47,760
Speaker 1: it's funny. Rob O'Neil has said on the show he

1130
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:50,960
Speaker 1: could barely swim before he became a seal. And then

1131
01:15:51,120 --> 01:15:55,200
Speaker 1: sometimes you have um guys who joined for really weird,

1132
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:57,680
Speaker 1: bizarre reasons and it ends up working out. I mean,

1133
01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:00,679
Speaker 1: Drago has said before on the podcast that he signed

1134
01:16:00,720 --> 01:16:02,840
Speaker 1: up to be in the army as you you know,

1135
01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:06,719
Speaker 1: just coming into America, then saw the movie Navy Seals

1136
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:09,360
Speaker 1: with Charlie Sheen and said I want to do that,

1137
01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:13,559
Speaker 1: and then changed, yeah, I mean you have to figure

1138
01:16:13,600 --> 01:16:15,400
Speaker 1: out what it is you want to do. I think

1139
01:16:15,439 --> 01:16:17,920
Speaker 1: for this dude, um, he has a wife already a

1140
01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:21,160
Speaker 1: wife and a kid, and uh in a job. I mean,

1141
01:16:21,240 --> 01:16:24,680
Speaker 1: I'd encourage him to think very carefully about what he

1142
01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:28,000
Speaker 1: wants to do. Um, if you want to go and

1143
01:16:28,360 --> 01:16:32,640
Speaker 1: join special Forces or something like that, it takes a

1144
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:34,760
Speaker 1: hundred and ten percent, so to speak, well, maybe not

1145
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:36,920
Speaker 1: a hundred and ten percent. It takes a percent effort.

1146
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:38,920
Speaker 1: Like you're you're kind of all in, and you're like,

1147
01:16:39,040 --> 01:16:41,880
Speaker 1: psychologically you have to be all in. It's not something

1148
01:16:41,960 --> 01:16:45,120
Speaker 1: you can have asked. Um. And when you have a

1149
01:16:45,200 --> 01:16:48,360
Speaker 1: wife and kid, you're in like a totally different world. UM.

1150
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:50,360
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying you can't do it or you

1151
01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:52,080
Speaker 1: shouldn't do it. I'm just saying you have to think

1152
01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:56,800
Speaker 1: that over really carefully. Especially do you want to Um.

1153
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:00,360
Speaker 1: You know, you're gonna be in training a lot, You're

1154
01:17:00,360 --> 01:17:03,640
Speaker 1: going to be deployed a lot, um. You know, and

1155
01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:06,479
Speaker 1: with that in mind, maybe you can serve your country

1156
01:17:07,160 --> 01:17:09,800
Speaker 1: UM and another job that doesn't require you to be

1157
01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:12,080
Speaker 1: away from home so much, but you're still serving in

1158
01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:14,720
Speaker 1: some capacity. Um. But you still get to be with

1159
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:16,920
Speaker 1: your wife and kid. I mean that's all stuff. You really,

1160
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:20,280
Speaker 1: I really encourage anybody in that situation to think carefully

1161
01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:23,439
Speaker 1: about um and and not make a hasty decision. I'm

1162
01:17:23,439 --> 01:17:25,200
Speaker 1: not telling you not to. I'm just saying you need

1163
01:17:25,240 --> 01:17:28,040
Speaker 1: to think about that real hard and and discuss it

1164
01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:31,400
Speaker 1: with your family. UM. I was a young single guy

1165
01:17:31,479 --> 01:17:34,240
Speaker 1: when I did it, so I mean, who cares? You know,

1166
01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:37,720
Speaker 1: I run myself into the ground. UM, But now you

1167
01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:40,719
Speaker 1: know I'm a little bit older. Um, I have a wife,

1168
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:44,519
Speaker 1: I have a kid, Like I can scarcely imagine doing

1169
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:47,360
Speaker 1: it over again. Um, and it makes me have that

1170
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:49,960
Speaker 1: much more respect for some of my teammates who were

1171
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:51,640
Speaker 1: away from their kids. I mean some of them had

1172
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:54,240
Speaker 1: like three, four or five kids and they're away from

1173
01:17:54,280 --> 01:17:56,160
Speaker 1: home for like six months at a time. I mean

1174
01:17:56,240 --> 01:17:58,920
Speaker 1: that's fucking crazy, and it makes you. It makes me

1175
01:17:59,520 --> 01:18:02,240
Speaker 1: a pretty she Now the sacrifice not a lot of

1176
01:18:02,280 --> 01:18:04,800
Speaker 1: our soldiers make. I mean, I don't think I made

1177
01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:06,679
Speaker 1: a sacrifice. I was having fun. I was there because

1178
01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:09,080
Speaker 1: I wanted to be. But um, you know a lot

1179
01:18:09,120 --> 01:18:11,240
Speaker 1: of these other guys spending so much time away from

1180
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:13,080
Speaker 1: their family, I mean that's really hard, and I have

1181
01:18:13,200 --> 01:18:16,320
Speaker 1: that much more respect for them. Um, you know that

1182
01:18:16,479 --> 01:18:18,639
Speaker 1: is a sacrifice. Now now that now that I'm older,

1183
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:22,439
Speaker 1: I can understand the sacrifice, spart a little bit more. Yeah,

1184
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:25,800
Speaker 1: good answer. Um, send those emails. I get questions all

1185
01:18:25,840 --> 01:18:27,720
Speaker 1: the time on Twitter and all that. Send them to

1186
01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:31,680
Speaker 1: soft Rep dot Radio at soft rep dot com. Uh

1187
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:34,799
Speaker 1: to other pieces of news to get into the sixty

1188
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:39,160
Speaker 1: minutes interview with Trump. He almost hinted at maddis no

1189
01:18:39,240 --> 01:18:41,920
Speaker 1: longer being a part of the administration when asked about it.

1190
01:18:42,360 --> 01:18:44,439
Speaker 1: So Alex Hollings wrote a piece for the News rep

1191
01:18:44,479 --> 01:18:47,439
Speaker 1: about this, called the Man Without Party. Trump calls Defense

1192
01:18:47,479 --> 01:18:51,479
Speaker 1: Secretary James Maddis kind of a Democrat in hint of

1193
01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:56,120
Speaker 1: departure um. After months of rumors that Defense Secretary James

1194
01:18:56,200 --> 01:18:59,760
Speaker 1: Madis maybe the next high profile departure from the Trump administration,

1195
01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:03,559
Speaker 1: President Trump himself added fuel to the fire over the weekend,

1196
01:19:03,920 --> 01:19:06,960
Speaker 1: calling the former Marine in general in air quotes kind

1197
01:19:06,960 --> 01:19:10,000
Speaker 1: of a Democrat and suggesting that Madis may soon be

1198
01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:13,240
Speaker 1: moving on. So that was from sixty minutes. I know

1199
01:19:13,400 --> 01:19:15,600
Speaker 1: that there was there was a much larger context of

1200
01:19:15,640 --> 01:19:17,720
Speaker 1: the interview. I didn't watch the full interview. I know

1201
01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:20,400
Speaker 1: you read the transcript, but that was the big bombshell

1202
01:19:20,479 --> 01:19:23,360
Speaker 1: of the interview. And I don't think that is something

1203
01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:25,960
Speaker 1: Trump would say unless they're you know, because I know

1204
01:19:26,040 --> 01:19:27,960
Speaker 1: he added and we get along great. You know, he's

1205
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:30,439
Speaker 1: a good guy. But I don't think he would add

1206
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:34,360
Speaker 1: this weird um jab of kind of a Democrat unless

1207
01:19:34,439 --> 01:19:37,280
Speaker 1: the guy was looking to leave or was being sent down.

1208
01:19:37,760 --> 01:19:43,679
Speaker 1: It's a it's a super weird, strange, unprofessional thing to say.

1209
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:47,880
Speaker 1: I but I mean this is this is an administration

1210
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:50,400
Speaker 1: like no other where, Like he sells out and undermines

1211
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:54,280
Speaker 1: his own administration. And also in to be fair, it's like,

1212
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:57,639
Speaker 1: what does kind of a democrat mean in the case

1213
01:19:57,720 --> 01:20:00,280
Speaker 1: of James Maddis, because you know, what does I mean?

1214
01:20:00,439 --> 01:20:03,599
Speaker 1: Maddie is a guy that anytime the media has tried

1215
01:20:03,640 --> 01:20:06,080
Speaker 1: to get him to play politics, he has said, look,

1216
01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:09,200
Speaker 1: I'm in charge of war, I'm the Defense Secretary. I

1217
01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:11,400
Speaker 1: don't want to get into all of this. So he's

1218
01:20:11,400 --> 01:20:14,120
Speaker 1: a guy who's done his best, I think to be

1219
01:20:14,280 --> 01:20:17,120
Speaker 1: completely a political There's been a few things he said

1220
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:21,160
Speaker 1: that he's against enhanced interrogation, UM, his stance on the

1221
01:20:21,240 --> 01:20:23,720
Speaker 1: idea of transgenders in the military. He's said a few

1222
01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:26,640
Speaker 1: different things. But I'd say he's a guy, more than

1223
01:20:26,680 --> 01:20:29,560
Speaker 1: anyone else in the administration who does not play politics.

1224
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:32,120
Speaker 1: So I don't know what democratic well, I mean it's

1225
01:20:32,320 --> 01:20:36,400
Speaker 1: it's being secretary of Defense is inherently a political position.

1226
01:20:36,479 --> 01:20:39,800
Speaker 1: You're a political appointee. Um. But yeah, he has tried

1227
01:20:39,840 --> 01:20:41,920
Speaker 1: to stay a political I think it's to the best

1228
01:20:42,400 --> 01:20:45,800
Speaker 1: of his ability as far as staying above the partisan politics.

1229
01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:50,200
Speaker 1: You know, he sees himself as someone who executes defense policy, um,

1230
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:54,920
Speaker 1: not somebody who wants to muck around um with a

1231
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:59,519
Speaker 1: with a political nonsense in DC. Um. Yeah. I think

1232
01:20:59,560 --> 01:21:02,519
Speaker 1: Trump he's just laying the groundwork with this kind of

1233
01:21:02,600 --> 01:21:04,960
Speaker 1: bullshit um, so that he can push Maddis out of

1234
01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:08,560
Speaker 1: the administration. Um. I think that Trump kind of is

1235
01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:10,640
Speaker 1: afraid of Maddis in a in a sense because the

1236
01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:14,160
Speaker 1: guy has credibility um, and that doesn't make him look

1237
01:21:14,200 --> 01:21:17,639
Speaker 1: good by comparison. And uh, I think John Bolton wants

1238
01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:20,559
Speaker 1: Trump or I'm sorry, I think Bolton wants Maddus out

1239
01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:22,800
Speaker 1: because he wants to push for us to go and

1240
01:21:22,920 --> 01:21:25,960
Speaker 1: do Iran and topple the regime there. And Maddis is

1241
01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:28,560
Speaker 1: one of those guys who's he's pragmatic, he's smart, and

1242
01:21:28,600 --> 01:21:31,160
Speaker 1: he's like pumping the brakes like whoa, whoa, whoa, Like

1243
01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:33,559
Speaker 1: we've seen this ship go down in Iraq, We've seen

1244
01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:35,800
Speaker 1: it go down in Libya, we've seen it go down

1245
01:21:35,840 --> 01:21:39,120
Speaker 1: in Syria. Um, why the hell do we want to

1246
01:21:39,160 --> 01:21:43,599
Speaker 1: do that in Iran? I think a replacement of maddess

1247
01:21:43,880 --> 01:21:47,880
Speaker 1: um of both into Maddie's position would be unpopular for

1248
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:50,920
Speaker 1: people who aren't necessarily the biggest Trump supporters, but like

1249
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:54,200
Speaker 1: Maddis and then even people who are Trump supporters, because

1250
01:21:54,360 --> 01:21:56,760
Speaker 1: I think I've said it on the podcast before. I

1251
01:21:56,800 --> 01:22:00,639
Speaker 1: think Bolton is looked at as a Republican establish ASHMNT guy,

1252
01:22:01,240 --> 01:22:04,639
Speaker 1: and people who voted for Trump voted for him because

1253
01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:06,840
Speaker 1: he was a departure when do we drain the swamp

1254
01:22:07,280 --> 01:22:10,720
Speaker 1: were waiting? I do feel he was a departure from uh,

1255
01:22:11,120 --> 01:22:15,560
Speaker 1: you know, from the political establishment. And and one of

1256
01:22:15,600 --> 01:22:18,360
Speaker 1: the biggest examples I could think of, whether you love

1257
01:22:18,439 --> 01:22:21,439
Speaker 1: or hate the guy Steve Bannon, there's no one else

1258
01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:24,040
Speaker 1: on that stage, whether it was like Marco reb Ruby

1259
01:22:24,160 --> 01:22:26,680
Speaker 1: or Jeb Bush, who would have appointed Steve Bannon new

1260
01:22:26,720 --> 01:22:31,160
Speaker 1: a position. Steve Bannon to me, was as um anti

1261
01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:34,120
Speaker 1: establishment as they came. And a guy like Maddis I

1262
01:22:34,160 --> 01:22:36,760
Speaker 1: think was a departure from the establishment as opposed to

1263
01:22:36,920 --> 01:22:39,760
Speaker 1: a guy like Bolton. And now we're bringing in these

1264
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:42,160
Speaker 1: guys who were seeing as a part of the you know,

1265
01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:47,120
Speaker 1: long standing Republican establishment, right They're they're pushing Trump where

1266
01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:49,760
Speaker 1: you know, the system is so much bigger than any

1267
01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:55,440
Speaker 1: one person, and Trump is being pushed in certain directions.

1268
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:58,840
Speaker 1: And I mean, I'm not trying to defend Trump. But

1269
01:22:59,000 --> 01:23:01,400
Speaker 1: I mean this this, like I said, the system is big.

1270
01:23:01,640 --> 01:23:03,800
Speaker 1: The power wants to do what power wants to do.

1271
01:23:04,280 --> 01:23:05,960
Speaker 1: And I think Trump is the kind of guy who

1272
01:23:06,080 --> 01:23:08,040
Speaker 1: if Bolton comes to him and it's like, hey, do this,

1273
01:23:08,160 --> 01:23:10,280
Speaker 1: it'll make you look tough. I think Trump just bride

1274
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:12,280
Speaker 1: nods and said, yeah, yeah, I do that. You know,

1275
01:23:12,360 --> 01:23:14,240
Speaker 1: I don't think he has a wherewithal And you can

1276
01:23:14,280 --> 01:23:16,360
Speaker 1: see through the sixty minutes interview. I mean it's just

1277
01:23:16,560 --> 01:23:22,880
Speaker 1: like like this total rambling, nonsensical cagning. I saw this

1278
01:23:22,920 --> 01:23:26,160
Speaker 1: stuff about climate change. You read that, And I mean

1279
01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:28,719
Speaker 1: it's hard to talk to Trump supporters about it because

1280
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:30,960
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, he's playing four D chess. You know

1281
01:23:31,240 --> 01:23:34,760
Speaker 1: he's doing he's moving the chess pieces around, and you're

1282
01:23:34,800 --> 01:23:36,800
Speaker 1: just you know, not smart enough to see it. You know,

1283
01:23:36,920 --> 01:23:41,400
Speaker 1: we're we're all awed by his brilliance. Um or you know,

1284
01:23:41,520 --> 01:23:44,559
Speaker 1: Trump is just playing a character on television. This isn't

1285
01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:47,320
Speaker 1: who he really is. And it's like, well, yeah, that's

1286
01:23:47,360 --> 01:23:49,840
Speaker 1: one thesis or or the other is that he really

1287
01:23:49,960 --> 01:23:52,800
Speaker 1: is as dumb as he appears in these interviews, And how,

1288
01:23:53,479 --> 01:23:56,080
Speaker 1: how and why are we going to make continuously make

1289
01:23:56,160 --> 01:23:58,600
Speaker 1: excuses for him when he comes off sounding like a

1290
01:23:58,680 --> 01:24:02,880
Speaker 1: complete moron and he's unable to speak intelligently on you know,

1291
01:24:03,320 --> 01:24:06,160
Speaker 1: hardly any subject. You know, you asked him about NATO.

1292
01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:08,280
Speaker 1: I know about NATO. I know a lot about NATO.

1293
01:24:08,920 --> 01:24:12,519
Speaker 1: It keeps like saying, okay, you say you know about NATO, like,

1294
01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:16,280
Speaker 1: but you can't speak to it on at length. I mean,

1295
01:24:16,320 --> 01:24:18,840
Speaker 1: do you even know what that acronym stands for? I

1296
01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:20,960
Speaker 1: think he knows that. I don't know if he doesn't

1297
01:24:21,040 --> 01:24:25,280
Speaker 1: or not, which is scary. Um. So, I mean, this

1298
01:24:25,479 --> 01:24:27,120
Speaker 1: is this is who he is. I mean, I think

1299
01:24:27,280 --> 01:24:30,840
Speaker 1: he's just very easy to manipulate. Um. He has thin skin,

1300
01:24:31,120 --> 01:24:33,519
Speaker 1: he has a shallow ego, and I mean that's not

1301
01:24:33,600 --> 01:24:36,560
Speaker 1: a good combination and a president, especially when you have

1302
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:41,360
Speaker 1: sharks in the water circling like John Bolton and uh,

1303
01:24:41,680 --> 01:24:45,400
Speaker 1: you know they're going to maneuver the more pragmatic, mature

1304
01:24:45,520 --> 01:24:49,080
Speaker 1: personalities like James Maddis out of the administration. The only

1305
01:24:49,200 --> 01:24:52,880
Speaker 1: time I saw Maddison Trump publicly butt heads that I

1306
01:24:52,920 --> 01:24:55,639
Speaker 1: could remember that was, um, you know that we all

1307
01:24:55,720 --> 01:24:58,800
Speaker 1: heard about was when Trump made a statement on Twitter

1308
01:24:58,840 --> 01:25:01,439
Speaker 1: about trans genders in the military and came out and

1309
01:25:01,520 --> 01:25:03,600
Speaker 1: said that you know, he hasn't consulted with it. It

1310
01:25:03,760 --> 01:25:06,320
Speaker 1: wasn't even I don't really see it his butting heads

1311
01:25:06,320 --> 01:25:08,519
Speaker 1: as much as it was just like Trump saying stuff

1312
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:12,000
Speaker 1: on Twitter, but D O D hadn't received any like

1313
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:15,120
Speaker 1: policy changes or policy memos or anything. So they're kind

1314
01:25:15,120 --> 01:25:17,920
Speaker 1: of like what you know, I mean, you're kind of

1315
01:25:17,960 --> 01:25:21,640
Speaker 1: being caught with your pants down again. And uh and

1316
01:25:21,760 --> 01:25:24,519
Speaker 1: you know that leaves you know, people like Madison in

1317
01:25:24,560 --> 01:25:27,320
Speaker 1: the lurch because now they have to respond to tweets,

1318
01:25:27,640 --> 01:25:30,160
Speaker 1: you know, and say like, well, I haven't heard anything.

1319
01:25:30,960 --> 01:25:32,640
Speaker 1: And then the other piece of news I know you

1320
01:25:32,720 --> 01:25:35,599
Speaker 1: wanted to bring up, there's this BuzzFeed article that's going

1321
01:25:35,680 --> 01:25:39,200
Speaker 1: around regarding mercenaries. Yeah, and that's pretty good scoop that,

1322
01:25:39,439 --> 01:25:41,760
Speaker 1: uh that this dude at BuzzFeed got. If you want

1323
01:25:41,760 --> 01:25:43,880
Speaker 1: to pull up the article really, yeah, I mean I'll

1324
01:25:44,360 --> 01:25:46,640
Speaker 1: look at UM. I read. I read through it this

1325
01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:48,639
Speaker 1: morning and I really need to go through and read

1326
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:52,400
Speaker 1: it again. UM in detail. Yeah, it's a good scoop

1327
01:25:52,439 --> 01:25:55,960
Speaker 1: they got. It's about UM. It's about this Israeli cat

1328
01:25:56,640 --> 01:26:02,519
Speaker 1: who UM talked to Uato given his firm a job. UM.

1329
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:08,040
Speaker 1: And they were going into Yemen, uh to do assassination missions.

1330
01:26:08,400 --> 01:26:13,160
Speaker 1: The journalist name is uh Aarum Roston. I don't know

1331
01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:15,600
Speaker 1: the guy, but hey, it looks like he did some

1332
01:26:15,720 --> 01:26:19,519
Speaker 1: good work here. He really uh nailed this story down. Um.

1333
01:26:19,880 --> 01:26:22,400
Speaker 1: And you know, so these firm hired you know, special

1334
01:26:22,520 --> 01:26:26,200
Speaker 1: forces guys, a dev group guy, a couple of seals

1335
01:26:26,360 --> 01:26:28,840
Speaker 1: sounds like one Delta guy in a bunch of French

1336
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:32,320
Speaker 1: foreign legionnaires. And the whole fucking thing was like amateur

1337
01:26:32,439 --> 01:26:35,120
Speaker 1: our front words to back. I mean, like they show

1338
01:26:35,200 --> 01:26:38,519
Speaker 1: up at the hotel to fly over there, and like

1339
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:41,360
Speaker 1: the dudes are all wearing fatigues and ship walking around

1340
01:26:41,360 --> 01:26:45,200
Speaker 1: the hotel and I'm like, oh my god. And then

1341
01:26:45,200 --> 01:26:47,160
Speaker 1: and the whole thing was just like it's like a

1342
01:26:47,240 --> 01:26:49,720
Speaker 1: cluster funck. Like they claimed that they actually did some

1343
01:26:49,840 --> 01:26:55,160
Speaker 1: successful assassinations. Um, there's one that was botched. They definitely

1344
01:26:55,200 --> 01:26:59,200
Speaker 1: attempted one that was botched. Um, it's just some of

1345
01:26:59,280 --> 01:27:01,360
Speaker 1: the quotes the sky got out of some of the

1346
01:27:01,720 --> 01:27:05,000
Speaker 1: some of these uh, some of these special operations veterans.

1347
01:27:05,160 --> 01:27:07,519
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm like, how in the world would you

1348
01:27:07,600 --> 01:27:10,680
Speaker 1: say that to a journalist, you idiot. The whole thing

1349
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:14,120
Speaker 1: is just like a case study and and like how

1350
01:27:14,240 --> 01:27:17,360
Speaker 1: not to do it? And I mean it's like some

1351
01:27:17,479 --> 01:27:21,680
Speaker 1: Hogan Hogan's heroes type shit um and uh, I mean

1352
01:27:22,160 --> 01:27:24,040
Speaker 1: I wanted to bring this up because well, it's an

1353
01:27:24,080 --> 01:27:28,240
Speaker 1: interesting story. This this article. Actually it's basically the plot

1354
01:27:28,360 --> 01:27:31,360
Speaker 1: of my third novel that I published like maybe four

1355
01:27:31,439 --> 01:27:36,800
Speaker 1: years ago now, direct Action and The Pot of Shameless Plug.

1356
01:27:37,200 --> 01:27:40,840
Speaker 1: The plot of the book was, Um. It's about a

1357
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:44,680
Speaker 1: group of former Seal Team six guys who are contracted

1358
01:27:44,760 --> 01:27:48,240
Speaker 1: to go to the Middle East and uh and kill um,

1359
01:27:49,080 --> 01:27:51,600
Speaker 1: not just terrorists, but kill people who are involved in

1360
01:27:51,640 --> 01:27:56,160
Speaker 1: the Arab Spring, like pro democracy movements, political people, um.

1361
01:27:56,560 --> 01:27:59,960
Speaker 1: And so it's like a rogue merk operation. And that's

1362
01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:02,480
Speaker 1: exactly what happened here. You have a bunch of misfits

1363
01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:06,400
Speaker 1: and weirdos um that were hired by this firm uh

1364
01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:08,720
Speaker 1: to go to the Middle East and kill I mean,

1365
01:28:09,280 --> 01:28:11,519
Speaker 1: we don't even know. And that's a main subject in

1366
01:28:11,560 --> 01:28:13,879
Speaker 1: the articles. How do you know these people you're targeting

1367
01:28:13,960 --> 01:28:16,360
Speaker 1: or terrorists? Some of them are just probably people who

1368
01:28:16,400 --> 01:28:19,160
Speaker 1: fell out of favor with the royal family. Uh. Some

1369
01:28:19,360 --> 01:28:24,559
Speaker 1: of them are um, you know, political people. So it's

1370
01:28:24,600 --> 01:28:27,760
Speaker 1: like it's really like the novel I wrote, coming to Life.

1371
01:28:27,800 --> 01:28:30,519
Speaker 1: In some ways, it's kind of creepy. UM. And I

1372
01:28:30,600 --> 01:28:33,240
Speaker 1: remember I remember years ago, I had an interview with

1373
01:28:34,040 --> 01:28:37,000
Speaker 1: another author and uh, someone who was a member of

1374
01:28:37,040 --> 01:28:40,320
Speaker 1: the intelligence community, J. T. Patton, and I was on

1375
01:28:40,479 --> 01:28:43,800
Speaker 1: his podcast and we were talking about my book and uh,

1376
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:45,360
Speaker 1: and I was telling him, I was like, you know,

1377
01:28:45,400 --> 01:28:47,439
Speaker 1: there's a lot of real things in this novel, a

1378
01:28:47,560 --> 01:28:50,320
Speaker 1: lot of real incidents, a lot of real facts that

1379
01:28:50,400 --> 01:28:52,760
Speaker 1: I bled into it. But the actual plot of the book,

1380
01:28:52,800 --> 01:28:55,479
Speaker 1: this notion that these there's these renegade former soft guys

1381
01:28:55,560 --> 01:28:58,080
Speaker 1: running around the Middle East killing people. That's bullshit. I

1382
01:28:58,160 --> 01:29:00,640
Speaker 1: made that plot up. It's a word, a fiction, and

1383
01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:02,599
Speaker 1: I'd be shocked if it turned out to be true.

1384
01:29:02,960 --> 01:29:04,840
Speaker 1: And out today, I like, I will, I like roll

1385
01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:07,880
Speaker 1: over in bed and open my cell phone and uh.

1386
01:29:08,040 --> 01:29:10,639
Speaker 1: Some friends had sent me this article, like several different

1387
01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:12,880
Speaker 1: people and I got pull it open and I'm still

1388
01:29:12,960 --> 01:29:15,439
Speaker 1: laying in bed reading it and I'm like, holy fuck,

1389
01:29:16,120 --> 01:29:19,960
Speaker 1: it's really very depth article. I haven't read the whole thing. Yeah,

1390
01:29:20,280 --> 01:29:24,800
Speaker 1: it is um and you know, this is uh again,

1391
01:29:24,880 --> 01:29:27,439
Speaker 1: this is a it's a total like amateur hour deal.

1392
01:29:27,840 --> 01:29:29,960
Speaker 1: It just reminds me of like, you know, one of

1393
01:29:30,000 --> 01:29:33,280
Speaker 1: these Robert the Nero movies, like it should serve as

1394
01:29:33,320 --> 01:29:36,439
Speaker 1: a warning. Like you you feel the heat around the corner,

1395
01:29:36,720 --> 01:29:39,120
Speaker 1: you need to walk. You just turn away and walk.

1396
01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:41,840
Speaker 1: And if I was recruited for something like this and

1397
01:29:41,880 --> 01:29:45,120
Speaker 1: I'm in a hotel room and my secret black ops

1398
01:29:45,680 --> 01:29:48,880
Speaker 1: uh murk assassination unit shows up and they're like wearing

1399
01:29:48,960 --> 01:29:52,840
Speaker 1: cry precision pants and like runt style T shirts. Bro,

1400
01:29:53,200 --> 01:29:56,040
Speaker 1: that is the heat. Okay, you turn around, you walk

1401
01:29:56,120 --> 01:29:58,800
Speaker 1: your happy ass out that fucking door. Because this is

1402
01:29:58,800 --> 01:30:03,240
Speaker 1: amateur our ship. There is no fucking way any of

1403
01:30:03,439 --> 01:30:06,400
Speaker 1: any of our guys should be involved in bullshit like this.

1404
01:30:06,840 --> 01:30:08,920
Speaker 1: Like you want to go and do cool stuff, you know,

1405
01:30:09,080 --> 01:30:12,240
Speaker 1: you go to Jay Sock, You go through the recruitment process,

1406
01:30:12,320 --> 01:30:14,880
Speaker 1: become a c I, a case officer, go do that

1407
01:30:15,040 --> 01:30:18,160
Speaker 1: kind of ship. Um. I have talked friends at well,

1408
01:30:18,200 --> 01:30:20,519
Speaker 1: I've had people try to rope me into like bullshit

1409
01:30:20,680 --> 01:30:24,680
Speaker 1: mercenary stuff before. I've also had friends of mine who

1410
01:30:24,760 --> 01:30:27,120
Speaker 1: have told me about stuff they're thinking about jumping on.

1411
01:30:27,320 --> 01:30:30,519
Speaker 1: Like one one friend came to me years ago and

1412
01:30:30,720 --> 01:30:33,040
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, yeah, Jack, I'm talking to this uh

1413
01:30:33,439 --> 01:30:36,559
Speaker 1: this firm. Uh they want me to smuggle guns into

1414
01:30:36,640 --> 01:30:40,000
Speaker 1: this African country and like, go assassinate somebody has something

1415
01:30:40,040 --> 01:30:41,920
Speaker 1: to do with like gold mines or something like that.

1416
01:30:42,080 --> 01:30:45,960
Speaker 1: I was like, stop, stop, stop, Okay, they want you

1417
01:30:46,040 --> 01:30:50,760
Speaker 1: to smuggle guns from America into Africa. Fucking think about this.

1418
01:30:51,080 --> 01:30:53,320
Speaker 1: Nine nine times out of ten, what you're dealing with

1419
01:30:53,520 --> 01:30:56,040
Speaker 1: right now is an FBI sting and the second you

1420
01:30:56,160 --> 01:30:59,400
Speaker 1: move a weapon, you're going to fucking federal fucking prison.

1421
01:31:00,120 --> 01:31:02,439
Speaker 1: Think about what you're doing here, Like you gotta be smart,

1422
01:31:02,760 --> 01:31:04,880
Speaker 1: Like you get out of the military, and all these

1423
01:31:04,960 --> 01:31:08,800
Speaker 1: guys they have no idea what's legal or not legal

1424
01:31:08,920 --> 01:31:10,800
Speaker 1: a lot of times, or they're jumping on board with

1425
01:31:10,880 --> 01:31:14,360
Speaker 1: stuff that they really shouldn't be without thinking it through. Um.

1426
01:31:14,479 --> 01:31:16,920
Speaker 1: It goes back to that article I wrote about Tiger Swan.

1427
01:31:17,240 --> 01:31:23,360
Speaker 1: It's like, look, if somebody is giving you a a contract, you're,

1428
01:31:23,720 --> 01:31:26,559
Speaker 1: you know, a sergeant that just came out of range

1429
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:28,680
Speaker 1: of battalion or a chief that just came out of

1430
01:31:28,680 --> 01:31:31,720
Speaker 1: a seal team. Maybe you should take that contract to

1431
01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:35,240
Speaker 1: an attorney and have them review it. And that's about

1432
01:31:35,360 --> 01:31:38,080
Speaker 1: keeping your ass out of the fire, because the people

1433
01:31:38,160 --> 01:31:40,640
Speaker 1: you're working for they don't give a funk about you,

1434
01:31:41,080 --> 01:31:43,559
Speaker 1: and they will hang you out to dry in a second.

1435
01:31:44,040 --> 01:31:47,680
Speaker 1: And even on the off chance that this is like

1436
01:31:47,840 --> 01:31:49,960
Speaker 1: some sort of like c I a cut out or

1437
01:31:50,040 --> 01:31:52,519
Speaker 1: something like that, I mean, here's what you look. The

1438
01:31:52,640 --> 01:31:55,040
Speaker 1: nature of cutouts is that they're designed to be burned.

1439
01:31:55,600 --> 01:31:58,920
Speaker 1: Like the second something goes sideways, whoever's behind it is

1440
01:31:58,960 --> 01:32:01,639
Speaker 1: just gonna walk. They're gonna turn and walk. And when

1441
01:32:01,720 --> 01:32:04,280
Speaker 1: some reporter calls up the CIA and it's like, oh, hey,

1442
01:32:04,760 --> 01:32:06,960
Speaker 1: did you guys ever do work with x y Z

1443
01:32:07,120 --> 01:32:10,160
Speaker 1: private military company, the CIA is gonna be like no,

1444
01:32:10,840 --> 01:32:15,000
Speaker 1: click done, And that's it. I mean, that is the

1445
01:32:15,120 --> 01:32:18,640
Speaker 1: nature of a cutout, and it's nothing personal. That's the

1446
01:32:18,760 --> 01:32:23,519
Speaker 1: nature of deniability, right so, and so I just want

1447
01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:26,920
Speaker 1: to say this to you know, young rangers, young seals,

1448
01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:30,880
Speaker 1: young green berets getting out of the service, do not

1449
01:32:31,120 --> 01:32:34,599
Speaker 1: get involved in this stupid petty bullshit with this want

1450
01:32:34,600 --> 01:32:38,759
Speaker 1: to be operator nonsense. And I know you're you're looking

1451
01:32:38,840 --> 01:32:42,240
Speaker 1: at these pictures on Instagram about how you're a fucking

1452
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:46,920
Speaker 1: Ronan warrior and you're looking at operator is fuck Nation

1453
01:32:47,120 --> 01:32:49,479
Speaker 1: and it's telling you about doing hood rat ship and

1454
01:32:49,600 --> 01:32:53,080
Speaker 1: goon ship overseas. No, that's fucking gay. All right. I

1455
01:32:53,120 --> 01:32:55,240
Speaker 1: know you're not supposed to use gay as a pejorative term.

1456
01:32:55,280 --> 01:32:57,120
Speaker 1: I got it. But it's just like real talk for

1457
01:32:57,160 --> 01:33:00,720
Speaker 1: a moment here, Like, don't be fucking stupid guys. Come on,

1458
01:33:01,120 --> 01:33:03,439
Speaker 1: it's not worth going to jail, all right, It's not

1459
01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:06,640
Speaker 1: worth dying over some stupid ship. You're working for some

1460
01:33:06,760 --> 01:33:09,680
Speaker 1: fucking amateur who thinks he's gonna cash in big. The

1461
01:33:09,760 --> 01:33:11,840
Speaker 1: guy who ran this whole thing, it says in the article.

1462
01:33:11,880 --> 01:33:17,000
Speaker 1: Now he's he's doing like some vape cannabis uh company

1463
01:33:17,200 --> 01:33:19,920
Speaker 1: in California. Now, Like that's the kind of ship you're

1464
01:33:20,200 --> 01:33:23,519
Speaker 1: you're dealing with here. Don't do it, man, Go use

1465
01:33:23,560 --> 01:33:26,599
Speaker 1: your g I bill, go to school, do something normal

1466
01:33:26,680 --> 01:33:28,640
Speaker 1: if you want to go and do cool ship man, Like,

1467
01:33:29,160 --> 01:33:32,200
Speaker 1: like I said, apply to the c I A apply. Uh.

1468
01:33:32,400 --> 01:33:34,280
Speaker 1: You know, if you're in the military, go take the

1469
01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:39,560
Speaker 1: long walk. Uh. Go to Delta Force. It's a good unit. Professional,

1470
01:33:39,840 --> 01:33:41,880
Speaker 1: you know, go be it, Go be a Green Beret,

1471
01:33:42,120 --> 01:33:44,320
Speaker 1: whatever the funk it is. But don't get involved in

1472
01:33:44,360 --> 01:33:47,320
Speaker 1: this stupid amateur ship. Don't do it. Like I'm I'm

1473
01:33:47,400 --> 01:33:49,360
Speaker 1: tired of it and I'm tired of seeing Like good

1474
01:33:49,400 --> 01:33:52,479
Speaker 1: guys get hemmed up and don't even come to you.

1475
01:33:52,600 --> 01:33:54,679
Speaker 1: Some of these companies will come to you and they'll

1476
01:33:54,720 --> 01:33:57,599
Speaker 1: pretend like they're working. You know, we're we're doing we're

1477
01:33:57,680 --> 01:34:01,440
Speaker 1: drafting up some report for for names Maddest and Pompeio.

1478
01:34:01,800 --> 01:34:05,760
Speaker 1: So go overseas and collect all this intel for us. No, dude, no,

1479
01:34:06,479 --> 01:34:09,600
Speaker 1: get it in writing. You take that fucking thing. You

1480
01:34:09,680 --> 01:34:13,840
Speaker 1: know I want that in my contract right here. Well,

1481
01:34:14,240 --> 01:34:18,600
Speaker 1: the article is American mercenaries were hired to assassinate politicians

1482
01:34:18,640 --> 01:34:22,320
Speaker 1: in the Middle East, written by A rum Roston for

1483
01:34:22,520 --> 01:34:24,560
Speaker 1: buzz Speed check it out. It's like I said, I

1484
01:34:24,560 --> 01:34:26,760
Speaker 1: haven't read the whole thing. It's very indebted. I mean

1485
01:34:26,800 --> 01:34:29,880
Speaker 1: this is like a small book here. Yeah, man, Like

1486
01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:32,400
Speaker 1: I said, I mean, this guy locked in the story

1487
01:34:32,560 --> 01:34:35,080
Speaker 1: I think pretty good. And I don't have any firsthand

1488
01:34:36,040 --> 01:34:38,400
Speaker 1: or set even secondhand knowledge of this because it's not

1489
01:34:38,520 --> 01:34:41,040
Speaker 1: my story. I didn't work on this. But it's well

1490
01:34:41,120 --> 01:34:43,799
Speaker 1: done though, just from the liddle of that. He interviewed

1491
01:34:43,840 --> 01:34:45,800
Speaker 1: a number of people who are on this team, and

1492
01:34:46,000 --> 01:34:49,360
Speaker 1: he has drone footage, he has some documentation, so I

1493
01:34:49,400 --> 01:34:52,479
Speaker 1: mean he spent some time on it obviously, um, and

1494
01:34:52,600 --> 01:34:55,599
Speaker 1: it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out. Um.

1495
01:34:56,479 --> 01:34:58,760
Speaker 1: And again, I'm just kind of like beside myself by

1496
01:34:58,840 --> 01:35:01,080
Speaker 1: some of the similarities to this book I wrote four

1497
01:35:01,160 --> 01:35:05,320
Speaker 1: years ago. Um, you know, down to um, you know,

1498
01:35:05,560 --> 01:35:10,360
Speaker 1: former dev group guys carrying hatchets out on mercenary operations.

1499
01:35:10,520 --> 01:35:13,400
Speaker 1: It's like down down to that like granular level of detail.

1500
01:35:13,439 --> 01:35:15,840
Speaker 1: I'm like, what the funk? Man, It's it's exactly the

1501
01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:18,320
Speaker 1: same kind of crap I wrote about in this book.

1502
01:35:18,360 --> 01:35:20,800
Speaker 1: And I wish it had remained in a novel and

1503
01:35:20,880 --> 01:35:24,120
Speaker 1: it remained a work of fiction. But somebody is always

1504
01:35:24,160 --> 01:35:29,160
Speaker 1: dumb enough to actually do it. Yeah, crazy stuff man. Well, uh,

1505
01:35:29,760 --> 01:35:33,479
Speaker 1: next episode better Death to Our Grea because I am

1506
01:35:33,520 --> 01:35:37,680
Speaker 1: the Revolution is about to be in theaters. Well, so

1507
01:35:37,760 --> 01:35:40,120
Speaker 1: why there's gonna be a premier in New York. I

1508
01:35:40,120 --> 01:35:42,720
Speaker 1: don't know if it's gonna be my wife's documentary. She

1509
01:35:42,800 --> 01:35:46,360
Speaker 1: just did a Ted talk in Milan, you know, which

1510
01:35:46,439 --> 01:35:49,400
Speaker 1: is it's about, you know, amongst other things, it's about

1511
01:35:49,600 --> 01:35:52,720
Speaker 1: a a YPJ commander in Syria that she spent some

1512
01:35:52,840 --> 01:35:56,000
Speaker 1: time with. Um. But we'll talk about the other personalities

1513
01:35:56,000 --> 01:35:59,000
Speaker 1: in the documentary. And yeah, it's we're gonna do a

1514
01:35:59,080 --> 01:36:03,680
Speaker 1: premier in in November here, I'll be there as long

1515
01:36:03,760 --> 01:36:06,639
Speaker 1: as I'm invited to come from I might be able

1516
01:36:06,680 --> 01:36:09,840
Speaker 1: to hook you up, I would hope. So so yeah,

1517
01:36:09,880 --> 01:36:13,559
Speaker 1: Benny will be in next episode. Check out softwarep radio

1518
01:36:13,640 --> 01:36:16,600
Speaker 1: dot com. Check out facebook page. We're now on Spotify

1519
01:36:17,360 --> 01:36:20,920
Speaker 1: and the uh the new act SOFTWAREP Radio Act, which

1520
01:36:21,040 --> 01:36:25,200
Speaker 1: is all the episodes, all the way back episodes that

1521
01:36:25,280 --> 01:36:28,680
Speaker 1: aren't on Apple Podcasts anymore as well, so back and

1522
01:36:28,760 --> 01:36:32,479
Speaker 1: we at buzz Aldern on Diamond Dallas page all these

1523
01:36:32,520 --> 01:36:35,320
Speaker 1: crazy guests that we've had on from the past, so sweet.

1524
01:36:35,320 --> 01:36:38,639
Speaker 1: Appreciate you guys checking it out and uh as always

1525
01:36:38,680 --> 01:36:41,400
Speaker 1: leave a review on Apple podcast New episodes up every

1526
01:36:41,520 --> 01:36:45,679
Speaker 1: Wednesday and Friday, and we're out guys. Hope you're checking

1527
01:36:45,720 --> 01:37:31,040
Speaker 1: out and enjoying these videos. We're doing as well. You've

1528
01:37:31,080 --> 01:37:35,400
Speaker 1: been listening to self red Radio new episodes of every

1529
01:37:35,439 --> 01:37:39,479
Speaker 1: Wednesday and Friday. Follow the show on Instagram and Twitter

1530
01:37:39,920 --> 01:37:41,240
Speaker 1: at self red Radio