1 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:10,959 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. We are on vacation this week, 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: so it's a great time to go ahead. And Rea 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: air all three parts of our You've Got Femail series. 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 1: This is part one of three and originally published five 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: point fifteen twenty five. 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 8 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 9 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick. And today on Stuff to 11 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 3: Blow Your Mind, we are going to begin a series 12 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 3: of episodes on a weird and interesting medium of communication 13 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 3: between animals, specifically communication by means of urine. I've said 14 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,279 Speaker 3: this before on the show, but I think humans are 15 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 3: really a species defined by the power and complexity of 16 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 3: our communication skills. There is a lot that makes humankind unique, 17 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 3: but communication, I think is the thing that makes us 18 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 3: most unique among the animals. When we want to share 19 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 3: information about the world or about our intentions with another person, 20 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,639 Speaker 3: we've got so many options. We can talk out loud, 21 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 3: we can use body language or sign language. We can 22 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 3: draw represent ideas visually. We can use written language, which 23 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 3: of course that you know has as a million different 24 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 3: instantiations and different types of technology today. So you've got 25 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 3: everything from you know, the handwritten note, to mass media 26 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 3: like books and magazines, email, text messages, social media posts. 27 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 3: I guess some people are probably still facts and. 28 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, but mostly we've got it reduced down to texting. 29 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: I think in general, we can throw all these things 30 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: out the window and we're just going to focus on 31 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: texting from here on out for the duration. 32 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 3: I only want to read books in SMS format now. 33 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 3: But I think gets easy because we have such mastery 34 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 3: over communication and communication technology to kind of not notice 35 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 3: media of communication that are not available to us, or 36 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 3: at least not usually. I love thinking about other media 37 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 3: of information sharing which do exist in nature, but which 38 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 3: are not used by humans, at least not consciously. And 39 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 3: it turns out a huge, pretty much unignorable example used 40 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 3: throughout the animal kingdom is urine communication through. 41 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: P That's right, And as we get into this topic, 42 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: I'd encourage everyone out there to set aside their narrow 43 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 1: human understanding of urine as much as possible and open 44 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: your mind to the extent that we can to the 45 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: richer world of informational micturition. Giggling is still permitted, but 46 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: rethink you're in a bed. As we proceed here. 47 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 3: To get us started, I wanted to mention a recent 48 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 3: zoology story that first got me thinking about doing this 49 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 3: topic on the show. It was a paper published this 50 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 3: year in the journal Behavioral Processes by three researchers named 51 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 3: Clariana Arujo Wang, Mauricio Kanter, and John Y. Wang, and 52 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 3: the paper was called aerial Urination suggests an undescribed sensory 53 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 3: modality and social function in river dolphins. So a bit 54 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 3: on the authors here. At least one of the authors 55 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 3: is affiliated with a river dolphin research project in Brazil 56 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 3: called Botos do Serrado, another with the Marine Mammal Institute 57 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 3: of Oregon State University in the United States, and the 58 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 3: third with Trent University in Ontario, Canada. 59 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 4: I believe they were all. 60 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 3: Associated to some extent with a research group called Cetasia 61 00:03:55,280 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 3: Cetasia based in Canada, but this stot he concerns individuals 62 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 3: of the species any Jeffrentsis, also known as the boto 63 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 3: or the pink river dolphin or the Amazon river dolphin. 64 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 3: Rob Have we ever done a long look at river 65 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 3: dolphins on the show? I don't think, so, I. 66 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: Don't believe we have. I imagine a lot of you 67 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: have seen images of them as we'll describe here. Do 68 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: not just picture any other sort of dolphin and just 69 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: color it pink in your mind, because the reality here 70 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: is a bit different. 71 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, these aren't just your bottle noes. This has a 72 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 3: distinctly alt dolphin feel. 73 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: So. 74 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 3: The Amazon River dolphin is the world's largest species of 75 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 3: freshwater dolphin, with males growing up to two point five 76 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 3: meters in length and one hundred and eighty five kilograms. 77 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 3: Adult females are somewhat smaller than that. They look fairly 78 00:04:55,160 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 3: distinct from marine dolphins, with long, skinny snouts without a 79 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 3: pronounced dorsal fin like you would see on bottlenose dolphins. 80 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 3: You kind of don't appreciate how much the dorsal fin 81 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 3: really contributes to the animal's profile until you see a 82 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 3: dolphin without one. It's not that it doesn't have a 83 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 3: dorsal fin, but it's more of a hump. Bodos have 84 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 3: kind of a if you're looking at them from the side, 85 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 3: imagine a kind of plateau silhouette along the back with 86 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 3: a mid length corner gently sloping down to the tail. 87 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I just find they do just look bizarre. 88 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: They To me, they kind of look like if the 89 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: cenobytes made a dolphin, you know, like out of a person. 90 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: That's the kind of vibe I get off of a 91 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: pink river dolphin. Yeah. 92 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 3: I hope this doesn't come off as hostile to them, 93 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 3: because they're wonderful creatures, but there is a there is 94 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 3: a suggestion of gore in their appearance. There's something a 95 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 3: little bit, a little bit squicky kind of but also 96 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 3: they've got a little smile sometimes. Have you seen this 97 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 3: in different pictures where if you look at the head 98 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 3: just right, it looks like they're they're giving you a 99 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 3: grin that's I don't know, it's a little creepy. 100 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's a little easier to take that 101 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: grin from a bottle nose dolphin. And part of it, 102 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 1: I'm just not used to seeing these guys. I guess, 103 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: you know, they're beautiful in their own right, but they're 104 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: also they're a little bit weird. 105 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 3: So bodos are found not just in the Amazon River, 106 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 3: but in rivers throughout northern and central South America. I 107 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 3: believe they're in the Orinoco Basin as well, and at 108 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 3: least one other major river system. Bodos tend to be 109 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 3: more gray in color when they're young, but then adults, 110 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 3: especially the males, take on this blotchy pink color as 111 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 3: they mature. I've read in some sources that the pinkness 112 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 3: might be associated with places on the skin where there 113 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 3: have been sort of bumps or abrasions or wounds on 114 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 3: the skin over the years, but I think that's not 115 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 3: for certain. There seem to be interesting questions about all 116 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 3: of the environmental factors that determine the Amazon River dolphins pinkness. 117 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 3: It might also have to do with the opacity of 118 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 3: the water they live in, or with water temperature, or 119 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 3: maybe a few other things. This is not fully settled, 120 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 3: but anyway, I was just reading a few other things 121 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 3: about this species, generally in a twenty sixteen feature put 122 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 3: out by the American Association for the Advancement of Science 123 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 3: written by someone named Kirsten Fernlely, and this article mentions 124 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 3: that many other dolphin species have a fused spine, but 125 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 3: bodos do not, and a bodo's unfused spine allows it 126 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 3: to actually turn its head from side to side, which 127 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 3: might not sound remarkable to you until you see a 128 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 3: picture of a dolphin turning its head to look at you. Yep, 129 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 3: pretty weird, rob, I've got a picture in the outline 130 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 3: for you to look at this. Dolphins it's like saying. 131 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: Hi, Yeah, it's a little bit creepy. 132 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 3: Like other dolphins, bodos also use echolocation to navigate their 133 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 3: environment and to hunt, so that means emitting low frequency 134 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 3: clicks or slaps from a fatty organ on the head 135 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 3: called the melon, and then listening for the bounce back 136 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 3: to get information about their surroundings, which they sense with 137 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 3: sensory organs in their lower jaw. Especially, bodos apparently eat 138 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 3: lots of different kinds of prey fish, crustaceans, reptiles which 139 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 3: they catch in their long jaws. They apparently have different 140 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 3: kinds of teeth in the front and the back of 141 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 3: the jaws. So if you see one of them with 142 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 3: the mouth open toward the front of the jaws or 143 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 3: this elongated snout, they'll have kind of pointy teeth which 144 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 3: are the grabber teeth that's for catching you and not 145 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 3: letting you go, And then they've got grinding teeth farther 146 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 3: back in the mouth so that's your destiny if you're 147 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 3: a crab and one of these things digs you up 148 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 3: from the river bottom. Level of socialization among botos seems variable. 149 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 3: Sometimes they will gather in groups, especially if feeding there's 150 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 3: a lot of feeding resources nearby. Sometimes you will see 151 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 3: them in mother calf pairs, but it seems most often 152 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 3: adults live alone, the solitary species. 153 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 1: Now, I was curious about the mythology and the legends 154 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: concerning the Boto, so I looked into this a little bit. 155 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: The name Boto is of Portuguese origin, but the indigenous 156 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: peoples of the Amazon and beyond knew of them long 157 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: before the arrival of Europeans. Naturally, unfortunately, not much seems 158 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: to have survived concerning exactly how those people in pre 159 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: Columbian times interpreted them in their folklore and myths. But 160 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: we might reasonably infer that there could be some connection 161 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: between what was believed in those days and more modern 162 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: folkloric beliefs about these river dolphins. But the modern stories 163 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: are pretty alarming, as pointed out in Amazon River Dolphin 164 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: Love Fetishes from Folklore to molecular Forensics by Gravina at All. 165 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: This is published in Marine Mammal Science, two thousand and eight. 166 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: The common folk belief one encounters is that the Boto 167 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: is a shape shifting seducer, or worse, the Boto can 168 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: transform itself into a handsome Caucasian male to dance boldly 169 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: and seduce women. They are also said to enter homes 170 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: at night and paralyze the occupants with their gaze before 171 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: having their way with them. And then it dawned, the 172 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: Boto must return to the water into its natural form. 173 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: The authors here point out that in some regions the 174 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: Boto legend is used to explain certain teenage pregnancies that occur, 175 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: and more generally, I've seen the legend explain as something 176 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,719 Speaker 1: that was originally a warning against the dangers posed by 177 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: male colonists in potential sexual violence. The nib dot com 178 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 1: has a really good webcomic about this, if anyone wants 179 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: to explore that. But associated with these traditions are also 180 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: sometimes practices of using body parts of the Boto as 181 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: fetish items. The eye can be held. Some of these 182 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: traditions hold while conversing with a romantic interest, because the 183 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: power of their gaze is irresistible, and so you can 184 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: get some of that power to rub off on ether. 185 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: And then there are other traditions where one might take 186 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: the dried, pulverized genitalia of one of these river dolphins 187 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: and then mix it with talcum powder or perfume and 188 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 1: then apply that to your own genitals as a magic 189 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 1: pleasure or fertility boosting powder. The authors in that paper 190 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: I sided, they point out there are regional variations, as 191 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: we've touched on, like there's ultimately a lot of territory 192 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: covered by the range of the Boto, and that range 193 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: is going to cover a lot of variety. There's a 194 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 1: lot of variety and active, active cultural influences to be 195 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: found in these regions. And so when some areas there 196 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: are indigenous beliefs that the photo is too sacred to kill, 197 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: while in other areas there has traditionally been more of 198 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: a practice of killing them for their body parts and 199 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: so forth. But the bottom line is the Boto possibly 200 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: a terrifying shape shifting seducer, and maybe this has something 201 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: to do with its coloration and it's kind of fleshy 202 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: aspect of its body. Maybe that's what leads to some 203 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: of these some variations of these beliefs that it can 204 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: take on the form of a human being. 205 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, the idea that there is something of blood about it, 206 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 3: or maybe something about it being able to kind of 207 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 3: turn and look at you, I wonder possibly. 208 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. 209 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,599 Speaker 3: But anyway, coming to the scientific paper we're going to 210 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 3: talk about, this will give you another very different. 211 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:37,839 Speaker 4: Way to think about the bodo. 212 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 3: So in this paper from Behavioral Processes in twenty twenty five, 213 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 3: again that's a ruho wang at all, the authors describe 214 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 3: recent observations, or actually not that recent, it's from a 215 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 3: few years back. I'll talk about that in a second. 216 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 3: Describe their observations of this behavior among bodos, which they 217 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 3: call aerial urination. Another way to put it would be 218 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 3: pea fountains. So the pea fountain behaviors documented in this 219 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 3: research took place among wild botos in a river in 220 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 3: central Brazil called the Tokentines between September twenty fourteen and 221 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 3: March twenty eighteen, and the observations were recorded from fifteen 222 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 3: meters high observation platforms at the water's edge. So the 223 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 3: pea fountain behavior, here's how it goes down. You got 224 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 3: one male boto. Originally it turns upside down at the 225 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 3: surface of the river, with its underside facing the sky 226 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 3: and its penis sticking up above the water line. Then 227 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 3: it starts to pee, projecting an arc of urine into 228 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 3: the air, generally about three feet long, which splashes down 229 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 3: into the water nearby. Usually while creating this pea fountain, 230 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 3: the boto will continue swimming, sometimes in a straight line, 231 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 3: sometimes zigzagging back and forth, sometimes looping around in a circle. 232 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 3: And this by itself could be seen as a strange 233 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 3: and interesting behavior, like why take the trouble to flip 234 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 3: upside down and pee into the sky? Like why would 235 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 3: you try to make your urine cross the barrier of 236 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 3: worlds into the unswimmable air? Why not just do it 237 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 3: straight into the water and go about your business? 238 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: I know humans would never, right, so why would the dolphins? 239 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 3: I was exactly trying to think about when humans would 240 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 3: make a point to like submertin just barely submerge their 241 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 3: bodies under the water in order to pee. I guess 242 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 3: the main reason I could think humans would do that 243 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 3: would be for like various forms of modesty, like in 244 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 3: order to not be seen peeing or not be heard 245 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 3: or something. 246 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's a fine point. I 247 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: would also argue, and again we're comparing dolphins with humans, 248 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: which is closer comparison to be made than humans do 249 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: various other animals, but humans. When humans have the ability 250 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: to aim and control their your ow nation streams, they 251 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: are liable to do novel things with their control within 252 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: the acceptable environment that they are urinating. I would bring 253 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: to mind occasionally one might see a target in a 254 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: urinal that sort of thing, sure, and that would encourage 255 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: one to aim for the target and so forth. Or 256 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: maybe one is urinating in the wild and there is 257 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: like one rock that calls out more than other rocks. 258 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 3: Sure, that's yeah, uh huh, I see what you're saying. 259 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 3: So it can be a form of play or self. 260 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 4: Amusement in a way. 261 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 3: And dolphins, you know, dolphins are intelligent animals. You think 262 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 3: that they might just maybe sometimes they do things just 263 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 3: to play, just kind of for a novelty of the behavior. 264 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 4: So there would be. 265 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 3: Interesting questions even if it was just the aerial urine stream. 266 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 3: But here's where it gets even more interesting. The authors 267 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 3: of this paper observed that two thirds of the time, 268 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 3: sixty seven percent of the time one male river dolphin 269 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 3: did this. It happened to be when there was another 270 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 3: male right there, right nearby, which the authors called the 271 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 3: receiver of the aerial urination. And what's more, the receiver 272 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 3: dolphin would often appear not to avoid the stream. Sometimes 273 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 3: it would just stay where it was in the water, 274 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 3: basically right under where the stream was hitting. But often 275 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 3: it would appear to deliberately chase the stream of urine 276 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 3: and try to get under it. So really the dolphins 277 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 3: would be going out of their way to get peed on, 278 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 3: it appears to be, yes, and not just to get 279 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 3: peed on, to get peed on in the face. So 280 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 3: the other male dolphin here will approach the place where 281 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 3: the airborne stream is splashing down, and it will stick 282 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 3: its head up out of the water to let the 283 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 3: urine splash down and run over its rostrum, which is 284 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 3: what the dolphin's protruding beak like jaw is called. 285 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: Again, humans would never so what's going on with these 286 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: river dolphins. 287 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 3: We don't have to make too many analogies to humans 288 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 3: and the positive or negative. No judgment here, but yes, 289 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 3: not a common behavior among humans at least we would think. 290 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: Right, And as we've been trying to relate here, urine 291 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: is not just urine to animals outside of the human domain. 292 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: Urine can be informational, that's right. 293 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 4: So that brings us to the question. 294 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 3: Of why do they do this? Why would the dolphin 295 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 3: pee this way? And why would the other dolphin seek 296 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 3: the urine stream and try to get its face position 297 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 3: its own face into the urine stream. To be clear, 298 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 3: we don't know the answer to this question. 299 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 4: It is. 300 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 3: This is not settled, but the authors do try to 301 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 3: make an informed guess. They say, the most likely explanation 302 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 3: is its communication. The dolphin that peas in the air 303 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 3: is in a sense talking, and the dolphin it seeks 304 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 3: out the stream of urine is listening. Now, what would 305 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 3: they be talking about. Possibly it would be the dolphins 306 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 3: quote social position and physical condition, which in fact is 307 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 3: very important information that male dolphins seek about each other 308 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 3: in order to navigate competition between one another, such as 309 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 3: competition for food or competition for mates. And this would 310 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 3: line up with the observation that aerial urination only ever 311 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 3: took place between males. The urinators were only males and 312 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 3: the receivers were only males. Now, another question you might 313 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 3: wonder about is why if this is in fact some 314 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 3: kind of exchange of information, and we'll get into a 315 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 3: bit more detail about that in a minute. What's the 316 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 3: need for the aerial stream why up in the air 317 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 3: instead of the dolphin just peeing underwater and letting the 318 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 3: other dolphin, you know, detect it in the water and 319 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 3: get whatever kind of information they need from it there. Again, 320 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 3: the answer is unknown, but one idea I read here 321 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 3: is that since dolphins are acoustically sensitive, the splashing of 322 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 3: the arc could alert nearby males that someone is pee talking. Now, 323 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 3: it's kind of like the ringing of the telephone. It 324 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 3: is alerting you to come get the message, which you 325 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 3: would receive by getting the p on your face. Again, 326 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 3: not known, but that's an interesting guess. Because the dolphins, 327 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 3: they live in a world of sound. They are constantly 328 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 3: sensing sounds that they themselves amid and bounce back, and 329 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 3: other types of sounds in the water. So the splashing 330 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 3: could be that that's a ring tone. 331 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: Ah, Now that is fascinating. 332 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 3: Another interesting fact I came across. This is actually unconnected 333 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 3: to the research about aerial urination, but I just wanted 334 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 3: to connect it because I read them both separately in 335 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 3: that general article about botos that I was reading from 336 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 3: the Triple As twenty sixteen. It mentions that bodos are 337 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 3: sometimes seen swimming upside down, but the author in this 338 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 3: case connects it to the fact that bodos tend to 339 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 3: have kind of chubby cheeks, like small eyes and chubby cheeks, 340 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 3: which some researchers think might give them trouble looking down 341 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 3: below them in the water, like I can't see down there. 342 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 3: My cute chubby cheeks are in the way. Thus, maybe 343 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 3: swimming upside down helps them see what's below them. 344 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: M Okay. 345 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,360 Speaker 3: Again, that may be totally unconnected to the aerial urination behavior, 346 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 3: but that's another observation of them sometimes just inverting for 347 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 3: some reason, and this is another possible reason for it. Now, 348 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 3: coming back to the aerial urination paper, there's the question 349 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 3: of how the receiver dolphin would be getting information from 350 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 3: the urine stream, if that is in fact what's happening. Well, 351 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 3: the authors point out that bodos have special sensitive bristles 352 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 3: in the rostrum that have already been documented to help 353 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 3: them search for prey in murky opaque water near river bottoms. 354 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 3: Rob I tried to find a picture where you could 355 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 3: see these bristles I did attach one here in the outline. 356 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 3: They're very small, and most pictures of the Amazon River 357 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 3: dolphin's mouth are not from real close, but here's one 358 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 3: where you might kind of be able to see them. 359 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 3: You see these little tiny white bristles along the edge 360 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 3: of the mouth. 361 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit of stubble, A little bit of stubble. 362 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: I will reiterate that in this picture too. It looks 363 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 1: kind of like some sort of a twisted cinebite. Yes. 364 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 1: And this is fascinating as well, because in talking about 365 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: one animal weeding the urine of another, we're often talking 366 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: about the sense of smell being involved. And we'll get 367 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 1: more into that later, but one of the things about 368 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: dolphins is that dolphins have a somewhat reduced sense of smell. 369 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: We've talked about that before on the show, talking about 370 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: the evolution of various aquatic mammals, and so it makes 371 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: sense that they would have to have some other capabilities in. 372 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 3: Play, that's right, And so that's what the authors hypothesize here. 373 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 3: They say that maybeuning and foraging and river mud is 374 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 3: not the only thing these. 375 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 4: Bristles are used for. 376 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: Quote. 377 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 3: We hypothesize that the bristles on bodo's rostrums can serve 378 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 3: a chemical sensory role in detecting urine streams, and that 379 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 3: aerial urination, often occurring in the presence of other males, 380 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 3: serves social or communicative functions beyond the physiological need for 381 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 3: waste elimination. So again, we don't know for sure about this. 382 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 3: It's just sort of in the early stages of documenting 383 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 3: this behavior in an organized way and then trying to 384 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 3: see what we can figure out about it. I think 385 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 3: you need to do more controlled experiments to try to 386 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 3: isolate the variables and figure out what it's really doing. 387 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 4: But if this. 388 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 3: Communication interpretation is correct, it could be an important exchange 389 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 3: of information that helps male bodos make decisions about, say, 390 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 3: whether it's worth it or probably more often not worth 391 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 3: it to fight with this other mail for access to 392 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 3: food resources and mating with nearby females. Like it's kind 393 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 3: of like, here is my medical chart through the taste 394 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 3: of my urine. This confirms that I am healthy, i 395 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 3: am free of parasites, I've got plenty of muscle mass, 396 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 3: and I could put up a good fight. So you 397 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 3: know you don't want to fight me. You probably get hurt. 398 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: That's a great way of explaining it, because I think 399 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: it's no surprise to any of us that urine contains 400 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: a great deal of information. There's a lot of that 401 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: information that we can discern medically, but to an animal 402 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: that has a heightened sense of one sort or another, 403 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: they're able to read the urine to some degree and 404 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: get information out of it, like who is this guy? 405 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,400 Speaker 1: Who do they think they are? Well, I can't check 406 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: their like, LinkedIn profile or their social media page, but 407 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 1: I can test their urine and read that for more information. 408 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 3: Yes, and as we've talked about on the show before, 409 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 3: it's easy to think about this kind of competition based 410 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 3: information exchange about fitness and capacity for fighting, to think 411 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 3: about that as aggressive, which in a way it is. 412 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 3: But the other way to think about it is that 413 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 3: this is a good evolutionary compromise that allows animals to 414 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 3: avoid violence and unnecessary aggression. It's kind of like allowing 415 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 3: animals to get a sense of like, it's not worth 416 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 3: fighting here, we can avoid a fight. 417 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 1: That's a very good point. 418 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 4: Yes, So if it is indeed. 419 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 3: The case that the aerial urination of these river dolphins 420 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 3: is not just about eliminating waste. And it's not just 421 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 3: a kind of a play behavior or a way of 422 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 3: seeking novelty, but it is actually about communicating information that 423 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,959 Speaker 3: is used to make judgments about intraspecific competition, competition between 424 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 3: these members of the same species. 425 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 4: This would be far. 426 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 3: From the only example in the animal world. Lots of 427 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:59,239 Speaker 3: animals use urination to convey information. I was reading an 428 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 3: article cover this river dolphin paper in Scientific American by 429 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 3: Gennaro Tauma that came out April eleventh, twenty twenty five. 430 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 3: And this article quotes a researcher and ecologist at the 431 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 3: University of Hull in England named Thomas Brethout and Brighteout says, quote, 432 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 3: animals in general want to learn as much as they 433 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 3: can about other animals, such as their sex, dominance, species 434 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 3: and so on. And a lot of information is in 435 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 3: the urine. In other words, like your urine can really 436 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 3: serve as a kind of fact sheet about you, which 437 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 3: may prove useful to both you and to the other 438 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 3: animal that's reading it. It's not just a one way benefit, 439 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 3: like it's useful to both parties to have more accurate 440 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 3: information about each other, and so it can say what 441 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 3: species am I what sex am I? What health am 442 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 3: I in? What is my social status within my group? 443 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 3: Am I socially dominant? It kind of conveys a lot 444 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 3: of the same information that people would get about another 445 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 3: person by first by like looking at them, but also 446 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 3: watching their behavior in a social situation or looking at 447 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 3: their profile online or whatever. 448 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, to your point, it's like, this is the 449 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 1: kind of reading that even subconsciously, we're giving strangers every 450 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 1: day as we sort of take them in and you know, 451 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 1: we're not actually preparing to potentially fight them, but it's 452 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 1: just the way we're wired right right. 453 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 3: There is a lot of i think, kind of instinctual 454 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 3: assessing that we still do even if we are successfully 455 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 3: like suppressing aggressive impulses and things like this. There's a 456 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 3: lot of looking at people and there's some subconscious level 457 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 3: of like reading their fitness to fight you if you 458 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 3: know you're not hopefully nobody's going to start a fight. 459 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And sometimes you get a little conscious of 460 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: it and it can feel a little creepy. And that's 461 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 1: when you just turn it on its head and imagine 462 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: that lightsabers were involved. Yeah, And then you get a 463 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: little a little bit removed from the reality of the situation. Yeah, 464 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 1: but it's still helpful. It's still helpful still let you 465 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: know where you rank. 466 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 3: But another thing that's interesting about thinking about urine based 467 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 3: communication is about, you know, about the hypothesized mechanism of 468 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 3: the bristles on the rostrums, somehow detecting chemical signatures within 469 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 3: the urine that would be useful information to the dolphin. 470 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 3: I love this because it causes us to question our 471 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 3: assumptions about what the different senses are for. Like we 472 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 3: think of sight as a general purpose sense, site based 473 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 3: on light provides us with all kinds of information relevant 474 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 3: to basically every kind of situation in life. It's not 475 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 3: limited to one type of judgment or assessment you're making. However, 476 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 3: I think we think of taste in a much narrower way. 477 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 3: We think of taste as a sense almost entirely confined 478 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 3: to assessing one the nutritional value and to the toxic 479 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 3: threat potential of foods. 480 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 4: So taste tells. 481 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,479 Speaker 3: You, once you have something in your mouth, is it 482 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 3: a good idea to chew it up and swallow it? 483 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 3: And then after that, is it a good idea to 484 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 3: eat some more of the same thing? But there's no 485 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 3: reason taste needs to be limited to that narrow band 486 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 3: of questions. I mean, I guess you could say a 487 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 3: reason a reason based around questions of practicality, like how 488 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 3: practical is it to get other types of information by taste. 489 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 4: I don't know. 490 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 3: If you're like a land based mammal, maybe not very 491 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 3: but I don't know. Maybe if you're, say, living in 492 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 3: the water and trying to get some information about things 493 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 3: floating around you, maybe it is more practical. 494 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: Or if you're a human geologist, right, we've talked about that. 495 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, so it tastes at least could potentially give 496 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 3: us all kinds of information having nothing to do with 497 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 3: the palatability or threat of potential foods. It could even 498 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 3: potentially give us social information. Orse, I'm not recommending you 499 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 3: lick people. It's just interesting to sometimes stop and think 500 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 3: about how contingent the way we apply different senses to 501 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 3: different kinds of information or situations is. It's evolutionarily contingent. 502 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 3: It's just based on sort of like how our bodies 503 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 3: evolved in the kind of environment we live in, and 504 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 3: it didn't have to be that way. So you can imagine, 505 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 3: you know, aliens that talk by taste and stuff, and 506 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 3: there's no there's no contradiction in that. 507 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 4: Yeah. 508 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: And the more you think too about the close relationship 509 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: between human smell and human taste, the lines get even 510 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: more blurred, because, of course, our sense of smell is 511 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: a big part of our sense of taste, but we 512 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: tend to not think about them being so closely aligned 513 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: when we think about the difference between say, the tasting 514 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: menu at the restaurant and the smells on the subway 515 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: ride to get to that restaurant, where on on some 516 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: level you were kind of tasting the subway car, you know, 517 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: And that's I mean, the senses are just closely linked 518 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: in that regard. So yeah, and then there's also a 519 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: strong case to be made that the sense of smell 520 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: is even a more intimate sensory experience compared to taste. 521 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: So your relationship to the subway car is perhaps in 522 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: some ways closer than that little chocolate morsel was that 523 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: you finally got to at the restaurant. Now, coming back 524 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: to urination, I thought it would be kind of insightful 525 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: to discuss volunteery urination in general, which is something we're 526 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: talking about here. You know, this example of the of 527 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: the dolphins deciding to pee, and then peeing providing that information, 528 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: and then another dolphin decides to go and taste and 529 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: interpret it. 530 00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 4: Yeah. 531 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good question itself. Why do animal have 532 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 3: voluntary control over when they do it? 533 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is one of those things. 534 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 4: You know. 535 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: Obviously, humans urinate regularly. It's just a normal part of 536 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: our daily life, and you're probably not giving it much 537 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: thought unless there's something interfering with normal operating procedure for 538 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: you in one way or another. 539 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 3: Right, and then, of course, if there is something interfering 540 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 3: with your ability to pee, it's kind of all you 541 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 3: can think about. 542 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: Right, right, it becomes highly important. So let's break this down. So, 543 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: first of all, what does it mean to urinate? Naturally? 544 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: It means to discharge urine from the body. Now do 545 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: all animals urinate? Well, I was digging into this bit, 546 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: and it kind of depends how strictly you define everything. 547 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: So birds, to be clear, like monitor lizards, like less lizards, snakes, alligators, 548 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: and crocodiles do not have urinary bladders. Birds don't have 549 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: a urethra and instead excrete everything through the cloaca, and 550 00:31:54,640 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 1: as Lewis Bilson explained in a BBC Science Focus shorty quote. 551 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: Mammals remove excess nitrogen from their bodies by converting it 552 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: to a dilute solution of urrea stored in the bladder. 553 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: Birds convert nitrogen to uric acid instead. This is metabolically 554 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: more costly, but saves water and weight as it is 555 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: less toxic and doesn't need to be diluted so much. 556 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 3: Ah, that's interesting. So the bird's method of ejecting nitrogenist 557 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 3: nitrogenous waste from the body just has less to do 558 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 3: with water reserves than it does for us. You know, 559 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 3: we think of p as a very water based activity, 560 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 3: like you know, you need to drink more so that 561 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 3: you can you can flush everything out correctly. And the 562 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 3: birds are less reliant on how much water they've got 563 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 3: in their system, and probably they're probably therefore need to 564 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 3: fluctuate their body weight less and that kind of thing. 565 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, but one, on one level, you could make an 566 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: argument that birds don't urinate. And I was looking around 567 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,239 Speaker 1: and even in peer reviewed articles by scientists who are 568 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: studying birds. You see it both ways. Some say birds 569 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: absolutely do not pee because of the aforementioned caveats, while 570 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: others freely use the term urine, because I mean, at 571 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: the end of the day, we need to call it something. 572 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: What is the stuff flowing down the legs of the vulture? 573 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: They'll just call it urine? Why not? 574 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 3: I recall this came up a bit in our episodes 575 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 3: on eurohedrosis, which was the thing about birds pooping on 576 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 3: their own legs in order to gain the benefits of 577 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 3: evaporative cooling. 578 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, you see it like also insects 579 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: Excrete uric acid. But sometimes you'll just see it called urine. 580 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: You know. Informally you have to call it something in 581 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:45,479 Speaker 1: these papers. However, on occasion you will see it referred 582 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: to as urate instead of urine. So I mean there 583 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: is some additional terminology out there. At any rate, agree 584 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: to disagree on what urine is or isn't. But control, 585 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: I think is the more fascinating aspect of all of this. 586 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: If you have a urin ordinary bladder to store your 587 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: waste liquids in, you can store quite a bit of it, 588 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: and then you can release it to an extent at 589 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: your leisure. It becomes rather unleisurely after a while, but 590 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: you have a fair amount of control about when and 591 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 1: where you're going to release said urine, and this seems 592 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: to be essentially true of all bladder equipped animals. Animals 593 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: without a bladder, however, it's interesting they can't store as much, 594 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: but they apparently do tend to have some degree of 595 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: control over timing by storing small amounts of it in 596 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: the cloaca and so forth. Now, the degree to which 597 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: we exercise control over our urine is quite fascinating when 598 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: you get past how mundane and to a certain extent 599 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: taboo it is. To break all this down. I was 600 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: reading a twenty nineteen article titled Choosing to Urinate Circuits 601 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:57,359 Speaker 1: and Mechanisms Underlying Voluntary Urination by Mochopodhey and Stowers, And 602 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: as the title suggests, it really is paper really gets 603 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: into the underlying mechanisms of peeing. But I loved the 604 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: way they initially present urination in general, and they lead 605 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: with the following sentence, which I thought was splendid quote. 606 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: Urination is one of the most commonly and routinely performed 607 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: social behaviors. Yeah, isn't that that neat? But we often 608 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 1: don't think about it like we a social behavior. You 609 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: tend to think of your a nation as anything but 610 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 1: social right You you leave everyone else's company. Generally to 611 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,439 Speaker 1: go do it, you want to be out of sight 612 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: of everyone else, you know, even if you know you're 613 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: on a hike or the movie theater, wherever you want 614 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 1: to you generally want some privacy, even if it's sort 615 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,240 Speaker 1: of the artificial privacy of you know, like little walls 616 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: at the urnal stalls and so forth. 617 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,359 Speaker 3: It's one of the most anti social things we do, 618 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 3: I would think. 619 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, unless you're a small child, of course, and they 620 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: do whatever, and that's something we tend to celebrate in 621 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,240 Speaker 1: art and humor as adults. There's you know, you can 622 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 1: cultures all over like, there's nothing more amusing than a 623 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: child just peeing whenever and wherever they want, and they 624 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: get away with it. 625 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 3: The bumper stickers are dedicated to that's true. 626 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 1: But yeah, the point they make is that even in 627 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: making that choice to go off and pee behind a 628 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 1: tree or in a bush, or certainly to use the 629 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: restroom as opposed to the corner of the movie theater, 630 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: you are carefully fitting your urination into your social environment. 631 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: The authors point out that humans are regularly consciously checking 632 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,919 Speaker 1: in on the fullness of their bladder and then calculating 633 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: their own urination urgency and then figuring out the social 634 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: appropriateness of relieving themselves. And I think that makes even 635 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 1: more sense when you think about not only the physical 636 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: act of urination, but excusing yourself to go urinate, the 637 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: way that you're going to present it with language, what 638 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: you were going to, how much detail you're going to 639 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 1: go into, how much detail you're not going to go 640 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: into about what you need to go to. 641 00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 4: That's right. 642 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 3: I don't know if I've ever thought about it that way, 643 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 3: but yes, there is a ton of social calculation and 644 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 3: social negotiation in the timing and location and all that 645 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 3: kind of thing about going to the bathroom. 646 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Like there are a million ways to essentially 647 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 1: say excuse me, I need to go pee, and you 648 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: would use different versions of this potentially depending on your 649 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: exact social environment. Now, this next bit that the authors 650 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: point out this is kind of an overstatement of the obvious, 651 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: but one of those I think overstatements backed up by 652 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: some findings that I think drives home the point really well. 653 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: They point out that for the majority of individuals living 654 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 1: with spinal cord injuries that end up preventing voluntary control 655 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,800 Speaker 1: over urination, among other functions, it's that lack of urination 656 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 1: control that is generally rated as the factor that impacts 657 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,359 Speaker 1: their life the most. You know, again, we don't think 658 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: of it, think about our ability to control our urination 659 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: until something gets in the way of our ability to 660 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: control it, and then we realize just how socially important 661 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: that control really is. And all this they note is 662 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: on top of the primary animal concerns of the urination decision, 663 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 1: which add the additional questions is it physically safe right 664 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: now for me to relieve myself? Or can I relieve 665 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: myself right now in a manner that's not going to 666 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 1: foul my environment and or negatively impact my health? And 667 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: then for some animals, there again there is that added 668 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 1: domain of communication. What sort of information am I putting 669 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 1: out there by urinating? Why? Here? Why now? And this 670 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: factor too, gives us all the more reason for an 671 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: animal to be able to hold on to a supply 672 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 1: of urine, because if you're going to potentially need that 673 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: to communicate, then you don't want to just get rid 674 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: of all of it. You might need to have some 675 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: of it with you because what if you need to 676 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: speak and you have no voice. 677 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is really interesting because it raises ways in 678 00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 3: which urine is and is not like language for communication. 679 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 3: One way that it is not like language is that 680 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 3: with language, you have voluntary control over what you say 681 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 3: with your urine. I think there's probably a lot less control, 682 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 3: maybe no control for most species, over what you say 683 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 3: with your urine. Instead, it's a question of when and 684 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 3: how and where. 685 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:26,439 Speaker 4: Yeah. 686 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, for the most part, there's a raw honesty to 687 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: the statement made with urine. But we may come back 688 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: to that a little later. Oh yeah, now this is 689 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 1: a good teaser. Yeah, you may in fact be able 690 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: to lie even with p but we'll explore that. 691 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 4: As we go on. 692 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: For the most part, though, yeah, humans don't engage in this. 693 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,879 Speaker 1: One major factor is that while humans can certainly smell urine, 694 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,880 Speaker 1: as we all know, again, we cannot process it and 695 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 1: read it in the way that so many animals with 696 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 1: heightened senses of smell can. 697 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 3: This is something I was wondering about. Certain there's not 698 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 3: a whole lot of conscious information conveyed or gleaned by 699 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,720 Speaker 3: the smell of urine. I would wonder to what extent 700 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:13,319 Speaker 3: there may be some subconscious information transmitted, But even then 701 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 3: I would be skeptical of anything that claims too strong of. 702 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 4: An effect based on that A lot of I don't know. 703 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 3: I feel like a lot of those studies about sort 704 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,879 Speaker 3: of like the unconscious kind of smell based judgments made 705 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 3: about people, some of that stuff was kind of overstated, 706 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:28,200 Speaker 3: I think. 707 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, And then you get into a lot of these 708 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:35,879 Speaker 1: at times heated disagreements over pheromones and humans, which I'll 709 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 1: touch on here in a bit. But but yet not 710 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: too imply that humans, you know, I mean, we do 711 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: not have the same sense of smell. We don't do 712 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: not live in the same sense universe as a dog 713 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 1: or even a cat. But you know, we can still 714 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: smell an impressive number of different sense I've read as 715 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 1: high as like one trillion different since and certainly you 716 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 1: know I can. I can say that I can tell 717 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: the difference between the of cat urine and the odor 718 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 1: of human urine. They're distinct, and I can point them out. 719 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: But being able to smell one trillion sents that's not 720 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,840 Speaker 1: the same thing as being able to actually make sense 721 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 1: of all the data. An imperfect analogy came to my 722 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 1: mind as I was reading about this. So if you 723 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,919 Speaker 1: were to venture into a movie theater with quite poor 724 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 1: eyesight and no sound. Based on your limited side alone, 725 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,200 Speaker 1: what could you make out about the movie? Could you 726 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:31,279 Speaker 1: determine its genre, it's a decade of release, anything at 727 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,440 Speaker 1: all about its stars, its director, its country of origin 728 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 1: or plot, Like, there's a lot of infort. You might 729 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: be able to make some very broad judgments about it 730 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,800 Speaker 1: based on what you could see. But what you couldn't 731 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 1: see would be like all the really important details that 732 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 1: make it not just you know, an array of colors 733 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: that speak to a certain decade maybe, but would actually 734 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: make it a story. Yeah, you know, it's a fool's there, 735 00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:58,919 Speaker 1: and I think in the end to try and fully 736 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: put ourselves in the mind so or the since universe 737 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: of another organism. We've talked about this before. Much has 738 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: been written about this, but I get the feeling that 739 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,920 Speaker 1: this is the sort of gulf between what happens when 740 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,239 Speaker 1: a human smells a splash of urine and a dog. 741 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,319 Speaker 1: Does you know it is? The dog is just going 742 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,400 Speaker 1: to since things with so much more clarity. 743 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 3: And you could probably tell that just intuitively by watching 744 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,640 Speaker 3: the behavior of a dog by like how important it 745 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 3: is to them, how much attention they pay to the 746 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 3: urine of other dogs, and to marking with urine of 747 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:34,279 Speaker 3: their own that you can tell, even before the experiments 748 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,959 Speaker 3: are done, that something very significant is being exchanged here. 749 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like this is this is not just a 750 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: dog being dumb. This is a dog knowing that there 751 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 1: is important information here that can be gleaned, and therefore 752 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: it deserves another sniffer. Two. I have to I have 753 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: to bring this back to where wolves for just a second. 754 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:56,240 Speaker 1: Here I was reading a nineteen ninety six Discworld novel 755 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,560 Speaker 1: titled Feet of Clay by the late great Terry Pratchett, who, 756 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 1: if you're not with Terry Pratchett, you know, writes these 757 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,359 Speaker 1: wonderful wrote these wonderful novels set in the fantasy world 758 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,799 Speaker 1: of Discworld, full of Monty python esque humor, lots of 759 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,840 Speaker 1: silly stuff. But he also had a real gift for 760 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:19,759 Speaker 1: insightful commentary as well. And h and yeah, so you know, 761 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,279 Speaker 1: be just mad cap goofy one second. But then it 762 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,719 Speaker 1: gets really interesting. And in particular, there's a there's a 763 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,880 Speaker 1: character in this, a member of the Night's Watch whose 764 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 1: whose name is ongo Of von Uberwald, and she is 765 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:37,480 Speaker 1: a were wolf, and he he describes her ability to 766 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 1: smell several times in the book, she's investigating things and 767 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:47,280 Speaker 1: leaning on her werewolf senses to smell the environment, and 768 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,920 Speaker 1: and pointing out that she can smell a room and 769 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: she can know like who or what has been present 770 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,720 Speaker 1: in that room for perhaps as long as a month prior, 771 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:58,320 Speaker 1: which I think I thought was an interesting way of 772 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,280 Speaker 1: looking at it, Like it's it's it's challenging to describe 773 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,799 Speaker 1: this sort of thing, something that's really foreign to our smell, dull, 774 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,800 Speaker 1: visually focused existence. But the closest way you might be 775 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,240 Speaker 1: able to describe something like this is that this werewolf 776 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 1: character she can see through time with her sense of smell. 777 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 1: She can look back through time with smell, And I 778 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 1: think that's maybe scratching at a way that we might 779 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 1: understand what a dog is doing or a various other 780 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,359 Speaker 1: animals that have heightened senses of smells when they are 781 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:30,759 Speaker 1: picking up on odors like this. 782 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 4: Yeah. 783 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,040 Speaker 1: Now again, you do see arguments about pheromones, and I mean, 784 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,680 Speaker 1: pheromones are of course real, but to what degree or 785 00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,319 Speaker 1: of it all are humans able to pick up on pheromones. 786 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,840 Speaker 1: I was reading a twenty fourteen article for Scientific American 787 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,760 Speaker 1: by Daisy Juhus, and the author points out that there's 788 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,520 Speaker 1: quote no evidence of a consistent and strong behavioral response 789 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,480 Speaker 1: to any human produced chemical cue, so it's possible. She 790 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,960 Speaker 1: points out that we might have once had capabilities along 791 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 1: these lines, but what we're left with now are just 792 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 1: it's far blunt or instrumentation. 793 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:13,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, that lines up with what I've read. Generally, you 794 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,520 Speaker 3: couldn't rule out that humans are to some small degree 795 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:21,040 Speaker 3: influenced subconsciously by the smells of each other. But it 796 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 3: doesn't seem it doesn't seem like we're at that sort 797 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,440 Speaker 3: of animal pheromone level like some people thought maybe, I 798 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 3: don't know, a few decades ago, there was kind of 799 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,319 Speaker 3: a buzz about this. I think that, like, are we 800 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:35,200 Speaker 3: actually secretly being controlled? But you know, are we subject 801 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,759 Speaker 3: to pheromone mind control? I think the answer is no. 802 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,640 Speaker 3: To whatever extent such influences there, they seem to be 803 00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 3: rather mild. 804 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:44,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean not to say that that smell data 805 00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:46,839 Speaker 1: is not in the mix when we're evaluating other people. 806 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:48,960 Speaker 1: I mean, some people have nice smells about them and 807 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,280 Speaker 1: we pick up on that, or they have bad smells 808 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 1: about them that we don't like and we pick up 809 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,560 Speaker 1: on that as well. You know, And in either case, 810 00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,960 Speaker 1: either organic smells or smells that have been applied through perfumes 811 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,359 Speaker 1: and deodorance and whatnot. But yeah, the idea that there 812 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 1: there's actually a lot of pheromonal communication going on. Probably 813 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,760 Speaker 1: not even in confusing this matter too. You have various 814 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,600 Speaker 1: trends that pick up on this, you know, like dating 815 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:18,840 Speaker 1: trends we've seen in the past where it's like, do 816 00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,440 Speaker 1: some what is it flash dating based on smell. I 817 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,440 Speaker 1: don't know if that's still a fad, but for a 818 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,000 Speaker 1: little while I remember that being. 819 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,120 Speaker 4: In the news. I'm not going to comment on that. 820 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:35,600 Speaker 1: Now here's one more interesting question. Humans therefore can't really 821 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: read urine, but might we be able to communicate with 822 00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:43,560 Speaker 1: our urine with another species that can read urine? 823 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 3: Mm, so, like we could we talk urine even if 824 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:49,320 Speaker 3: we can't really understand urine? 825 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I mean largely no, but sort of 826 00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:58,839 Speaker 1: yes too, according to some in a very one directional way. 827 00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:04,480 Speaker 1: Never Wolf author and environmentalist Farley Mowatt wrote about this 828 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,640 Speaker 1: in his book Never Cry Wolf, talking about marking his 829 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:11,200 Speaker 1: territory in the wilderness while studying wolves, and claimed that 830 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,680 Speaker 1: they honored his marked territory and marked like their side 831 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,640 Speaker 1: of the Mark Stones film fans might remember watching Charles 832 00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,600 Speaker 1: Martin Smith do this the nineteen eighty three film adaptation. 833 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,840 Speaker 1: Dogs furthermore, can be trained to pick up on specific 834 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,400 Speaker 1: notes in human urine that can be helpful in the 835 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,719 Speaker 1: detection of illnesses. So you know, that's kind of a 836 00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:33,560 Speaker 1: one way urine communication. 837 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:36,800 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I can see that, and I'm. 838 00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,120 Speaker 1: Not sure it may come back to this later, but 839 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:42,959 Speaker 1: you could also eventually add the medical and technological layer 840 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,080 Speaker 1: to all of this and say that while through our 841 00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:49,800 Speaker 1: medicine and through our technology, humans absolutely can read urine, 842 00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,800 Speaker 1: and you know, to a certain extent, you could imagine 843 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,680 Speaker 1: some scenario where we could speak with our urine as well, 844 00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,439 Speaker 1: if we were using our technology on like both ends 845 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,839 Speaker 1: of the conversation. I'm not sure what that would look 846 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:06,160 Speaker 1: like of why that would be, but maybe we'll get 847 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:06,759 Speaker 1: into that later. 848 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,160 Speaker 3: Okay, well, I think we need to wrap up part 849 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,400 Speaker 3: one of this series there, but we're going to be 850 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,680 Speaker 3: back in at least one more party, maybe multiple parts, 851 00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:19,279 Speaker 3: with more fascinating examples of urine based communication. What can 852 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,719 Speaker 3: the p say and what can we hear? 853 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,480 Speaker 1: That's right, so tune in for that. In the meantime, 854 00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:27,160 Speaker 1: we will just remind you that Stuff to Blow Your 855 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,080 Speaker 1: Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core 856 00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,480 Speaker 1: episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Wednesdays we have a 857 00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:35,919 Speaker 1: short form episode, and on Fridays we set aside most 858 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,239 Speaker 1: serious concerns to just talk about a weird film on 859 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,799 Speaker 1: Weird House Cinema. You can get the podcast pretty much 860 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,799 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, wherever that might be. We 861 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,239 Speaker 1: haven't asked in a little bit on this front, but 862 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:49,640 Speaker 1: if you have the ability to rate and review us, 863 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,919 Speaker 1: leave us a rating, leave us a nice review, throw 864 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,960 Speaker 1: some stars at us. That always helps us out. And 865 00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:57,759 Speaker 1: if you want to follow us on social media, you 866 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,320 Speaker 1: can find us in various places on Instagram, Ram. We 867 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,640 Speaker 1: are s t B y M podcast huge, thanks. 868 00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:07,399 Speaker 3: As always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. If 869 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:08,960 Speaker 3: you would like to get in touch with us with 870 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 3: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a 871 00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,759 Speaker 3: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you 872 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,440 Speaker 3: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 873 00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:25,600 Speaker 3: Mind dot com. 874 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,719 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 875 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,600 Speaker 2: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 876 00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:48,319 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows