1 00:00:15,264 --> 00:00:21,984 Speaker 1: Pushkin. My name is Ellen Long, and I wrote Secrets 2 00:00:21,984 --> 00:00:24,064 Speaker 1: of the Christmas Tree Trade for New York Magazine and 3 00:00:24,104 --> 00:00:27,304 Speaker 1: it's the story of the week. Putting a Christmas tree 4 00:00:27,304 --> 00:00:29,504 Speaker 1: in your living room is a really strange thing to do. 5 00:00:29,864 --> 00:00:33,424 Speaker 1: And that's not just me as a Jew talking. Until 6 00:00:33,504 --> 00:00:36,664 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty one, the only people who did this were Germans, 7 00:00:36,944 --> 00:00:39,984 Speaker 1: and there are people who mixed their beer with Coca cola. 8 00:00:40,064 --> 00:00:42,424 Speaker 1: But there were enough German immigrants coming to the city 9 00:00:42,464 --> 00:00:46,584 Speaker 1: by then to give this guy, Mark Carr a crazy idea. 10 00:00:46,984 --> 00:00:49,704 Speaker 1: Car figured he could chop down some Christmas trees for 11 00:00:49,744 --> 00:00:52,424 Speaker 1: free in the forest, shove them onto a wagon with 12 00:00:52,504 --> 00:00:55,224 Speaker 1: his best ox, and drive them down to the city 13 00:00:55,264 --> 00:00:57,984 Speaker 1: and sell them at the market. It seemed insane to 14 00:00:58,064 --> 00:01:00,184 Speaker 1: charge for a free resource, kind of like the first 15 00:01:00,184 --> 00:01:03,784 Speaker 1: person who decided to charge for bottled water, but it worked. 16 00:01:04,184 --> 00:01:08,304 Speaker 1: He sold out by the end of the day. More 17 00:01:08,344 --> 00:01:11,384 Speaker 1: than one hundred years later, a teenager would find an 18 00:01:11,384 --> 00:01:15,664 Speaker 1: obscure law in New York, the Coniferous Tree Exception, that 19 00:01:15,744 --> 00:01:18,544 Speaker 1: allowed him to sell trees not in the market, but 20 00:01:18,824 --> 00:01:23,264 Speaker 1: right on the sidewalks. That kid would become the Christmas 21 00:01:23,304 --> 00:01:27,464 Speaker 1: tree kingpin of New York City. And today he's still 22 00:01:27,544 --> 00:01:31,664 Speaker 1: running one of the most ruthless businesses in the entire city, 23 00:01:37,504 --> 00:01:40,704 Speaker 1: writing his hard who's got that kind of time when 24 00:01:40,704 --> 00:01:44,264 Speaker 1: you're already busy trying to be John steinun So it 25 00:01:44,304 --> 00:01:47,464 Speaker 1: turns on a mic made it twiddles and knob because 26 00:01:47,504 --> 00:01:51,384 Speaker 1: a journalist Frand has got in that dual jime auditory 27 00:01:52,304 --> 00:01:58,984 Speaker 1: single story. Just listen to smart people speak, conversation, feeling 28 00:01:59,144 --> 00:02:12,064 Speaker 1: information is a story up. Today's story comes from Owen Long, 29 00:02:12,184 --> 00:02:15,784 Speaker 1: who's a recent Columbia graduate, and he's got a very 30 00:02:15,944 --> 00:02:19,424 Speaker 1: intimate knowledge of the Christmas tree trade. This is actually 31 00:02:19,424 --> 00:02:23,424 Speaker 1: Owen's first published piece ever, and it reminds me of 32 00:02:23,504 --> 00:02:27,064 Speaker 1: David Steris's sandaland Diaries, which launched his career back in 33 00:02:27,144 --> 00:02:30,304 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two. But for now, Owen is still selling 34 00:02:30,384 --> 00:02:33,144 Speaker 1: Christmas trees in Park Slope, Brook. Well. I'm sleeping for 35 00:02:33,184 --> 00:02:36,144 Speaker 1: a nice like four foot tree, maybe like a balsa, 36 00:02:36,584 --> 00:02:39,424 Speaker 1: a balsam. Yeah, I called Owen while he was on 37 00:02:39,424 --> 00:02:44,224 Speaker 1: the job, or relatively skinny, something fatter. The poor guy's 38 00:02:44,304 --> 00:02:46,904 Speaker 1: body was aching and he was sleep deprived, and he 39 00:02:46,944 --> 00:02:49,984 Speaker 1: was shivering in front of this tiny, crapy little heater. 40 00:02:50,544 --> 00:02:53,544 Speaker 1: This heater is actually really great. That made this annoying 41 00:02:53,584 --> 00:02:56,504 Speaker 1: little noise that I thought might hurt my recording, so 42 00:02:56,504 --> 00:03:01,944 Speaker 1: I told him to turn it off. Owen, thank you 43 00:03:02,264 --> 00:03:04,584 Speaker 1: for coming on the show. I know this is your 44 00:03:04,584 --> 00:03:07,304 Speaker 1: busy season. Yeah, yeah, it is. I'm at the tree 45 00:03:07,344 --> 00:03:09,624 Speaker 1: lout right now. Actually in the trailer. Do you sleep 46 00:03:09,624 --> 00:03:12,064 Speaker 1: in this trailer? Like, what is your life like right now? So? 47 00:03:12,144 --> 00:03:14,664 Speaker 1: I sleep here every other night because I live in 48 00:03:14,744 --> 00:03:18,424 Speaker 1: Crown Heights in Brooklyn. But most tree guys sleep in 49 00:03:18,504 --> 00:03:20,944 Speaker 1: an office trailer or like a little shack or a 50 00:03:21,024 --> 00:03:23,464 Speaker 1: van or something like that every night of the season, 51 00:03:23,544 --> 00:03:25,304 Speaker 1: so they sleep like right in the sidewalk pretty much. 52 00:03:25,544 --> 00:03:28,184 Speaker 1: So throughout this interview, people might just be knocking on 53 00:03:28,224 --> 00:03:31,064 Speaker 1: the door of your trailer trying to buy a Christmas tree. Yes, yeah, definitely. 54 00:03:31,264 --> 00:03:33,304 Speaker 1: It gets pretty exhausting, especially because you get woken up 55 00:03:33,464 --> 00:03:35,024 Speaker 1: in like the middle of the night. You never really 56 00:03:35,024 --> 00:03:38,224 Speaker 1: get like a complete night's sleep. Wait, people are waking 57 00:03:38,264 --> 00:03:39,504 Speaker 1: up in the middle of the night to buy a 58 00:03:39,584 --> 00:03:42,744 Speaker 1: Christmas tree, like drunken three am Christmas tree. Yeah yeah, 59 00:03:42,784 --> 00:03:45,224 Speaker 1: people wander by at like four am, a knock in 60 00:03:45,264 --> 00:03:48,064 Speaker 1: the trailer. Sometimes you recognize like it's like some drunk 61 00:03:48,104 --> 00:03:50,304 Speaker 1: guy that bought a tree the night before and forgot 62 00:03:50,504 --> 00:03:52,304 Speaker 1: that he did that, and then you have to be like, 63 00:03:53,544 --> 00:03:54,944 Speaker 1: to buy another one, Yeah, he wants, but he forgot 64 00:03:54,984 --> 00:03:58,064 Speaker 1: that he bought the one the night before. So then 65 00:03:58,064 --> 00:03:59,584 Speaker 1: you usually have to say like, no, I already sold 66 00:03:59,624 --> 00:04:02,944 Speaker 1: you one yesterday. You know, I don't want to question 67 00:04:03,064 --> 00:04:06,384 Speaker 1: your salesmanship, but I would think you should just keep 68 00:04:06,424 --> 00:04:09,784 Speaker 1: selling the drunk guy a new tree every night. Super ethical. 69 00:04:09,824 --> 00:04:12,304 Speaker 1: I'm impressed. Oh. One of the things that blew my 70 00:04:12,344 --> 00:04:15,184 Speaker 1: mind about your story was I just kind of naively 71 00:04:15,224 --> 00:04:19,144 Speaker 1: thought that when you see someone selling Christmas trees on 72 00:04:19,184 --> 00:04:21,304 Speaker 1: the sidewalk, as you do in New York or LA 73 00:04:21,544 --> 00:04:23,944 Speaker 1: or so many places, that it was just like their 74 00:04:23,944 --> 00:04:27,224 Speaker 1: own little business, like a food truck or something. But 75 00:04:27,304 --> 00:04:30,584 Speaker 1: it turns out there's big Christmas tree. It's it's controlled 76 00:04:30,584 --> 00:04:33,304 Speaker 1: by just a few people, right, Yes, yeah, that's right. 77 00:04:33,424 --> 00:04:36,344 Speaker 1: So there's six or seven guys in New York that 78 00:04:37,024 --> 00:04:39,144 Speaker 1: have kind of controlled it for a long time, and 79 00:04:39,184 --> 00:04:41,584 Speaker 1: they own all of them, but their names aren't anywhere 80 00:04:41,624 --> 00:04:44,144 Speaker 1: on the stand. So to the casual passer by, it 81 00:04:44,184 --> 00:04:46,264 Speaker 1: just looks like some dudes who set up apply with 82 00:04:46,424 --> 00:04:48,184 Speaker 1: shack and the throw a couple of trees on the 83 00:04:48,224 --> 00:04:50,584 Speaker 1: sidewalk and that throw in personal business, But why wouldn't 84 00:04:50,584 --> 00:04:52,384 Speaker 1: you put your name on it, because it's it's just 85 00:04:52,464 --> 00:04:56,184 Speaker 1: better for business to not reveal that you're a big business. 86 00:04:56,224 --> 00:04:58,504 Speaker 1: Like people want to think that it's just a couple 87 00:04:58,584 --> 00:05:00,824 Speaker 1: they want me to So the thing that I thought 88 00:05:00,864 --> 00:05:03,664 Speaker 1: was that these were all little, individual small businesses is 89 00:05:03,664 --> 00:05:06,144 Speaker 1: what they want me to think. Yeah, it worked exactly 90 00:05:06,184 --> 00:05:08,224 Speaker 1: as planned. They want it to seem like it's like 91 00:05:08,264 --> 00:05:10,744 Speaker 1: two Canadian dudes who just threw some trees on a 92 00:05:10,784 --> 00:05:13,104 Speaker 1: truck and drove down and then propped them up in 93 00:05:13,144 --> 00:05:16,224 Speaker 1: the sidewalk and then told them. So these guys who 94 00:05:16,384 --> 00:05:20,224 Speaker 1: own these two stands, they call themselves tree men, and 95 00:05:20,744 --> 00:05:24,144 Speaker 1: they kind of divvy up the city like the five 96 00:05:24,184 --> 00:05:27,824 Speaker 1: families in the mafia. Right. Yeah, they all want to 97 00:05:29,144 --> 00:05:31,584 Speaker 1: have as much of the market as they can, but 98 00:05:32,344 --> 00:05:34,384 Speaker 1: they also need to stay cool a little bit with 99 00:05:34,384 --> 00:05:38,184 Speaker 1: each other because there's alliances and if you get a 100 00:05:38,184 --> 00:05:40,264 Speaker 1: little too greedy, then everyone else will team up on you. 101 00:05:40,944 --> 00:05:43,824 Speaker 1: So they're all kind of in this general agreement that 102 00:05:43,944 --> 00:05:46,344 Speaker 1: like we're going to be the six or seven guys 103 00:05:46,384 --> 00:05:47,784 Speaker 1: who are going to sell most of the trees in 104 00:05:47,784 --> 00:05:50,904 Speaker 1: the city, but no one get too greedy, are also 105 00:05:50,984 --> 00:05:53,504 Speaker 1: going to spoil it for everyone? How do they decide 106 00:05:53,544 --> 00:05:55,984 Speaker 1: who gets the prime real estate for Christmas tree stands? 107 00:05:56,424 --> 00:05:59,304 Speaker 1: The biggest and most lucrative spots in New York are 108 00:05:59,544 --> 00:06:03,704 Speaker 1: Parks Department spots. So you put in a bid. Okay, 109 00:06:03,944 --> 00:06:06,264 Speaker 1: it's like a blind auction with the Parks Department. It's 110 00:06:06,304 --> 00:06:09,184 Speaker 1: all the tree men put their bids in. No one's 111 00:06:09,184 --> 00:06:11,224 Speaker 1: any bid on any of these spots. And then they 112 00:06:11,264 --> 00:06:13,784 Speaker 1: all get together at the Parks Department at Central Park 113 00:06:14,024 --> 00:06:16,704 Speaker 1: and they're at this long table with these kind of 114 00:06:16,704 --> 00:06:20,864 Speaker 1: like mid level Parks Department bureaucrats or whatever, and then 115 00:06:20,904 --> 00:06:24,384 Speaker 1: they all open these envelopes and they find out who 116 00:06:24,424 --> 00:06:27,024 Speaker 1: bid on what like, did you retain your spot? Did 117 00:06:27,064 --> 00:06:30,344 Speaker 1: someone stealed out from under you? If so, what are 118 00:06:30,344 --> 00:06:31,904 Speaker 1: you going to do about it? Are you going to 119 00:06:31,984 --> 00:06:34,824 Speaker 1: bid on their spot next time around? And the auction 120 00:06:34,824 --> 00:06:38,024 Speaker 1: only happens every four years. It's only every four years. Yeah, 121 00:06:38,024 --> 00:06:41,024 Speaker 1: so if your spot gets taken, it's a big problem 122 00:06:41,144 --> 00:06:42,984 Speaker 1: because now you can't get it back for four years. 123 00:06:43,024 --> 00:06:46,384 Speaker 1: So it's like bad form. Yeah, basically you shouldn't do 124 00:06:46,384 --> 00:06:48,584 Speaker 1: it at all. But if you're going to it's customary 125 00:06:48,584 --> 00:06:50,744 Speaker 1: to tell them you're going to do so. You know, 126 00:06:50,824 --> 00:06:53,704 Speaker 1: people are very loyal to their Christmas tree guy, and 127 00:06:53,864 --> 00:06:57,144 Speaker 1: the tree man who controls the most lucrative part up 128 00:06:57,184 --> 00:06:59,664 Speaker 1: to him Manhattan. He's like the most powerful tree man. 129 00:06:59,744 --> 00:07:03,904 Speaker 1: His name's Kevin Hammer, and he's sort of like the Godfather. He, 130 00:07:04,144 --> 00:07:05,904 Speaker 1: according to your story, kind of came up with this 131 00:07:05,984 --> 00:07:08,704 Speaker 1: whole idea of a sidewalk tree stand back in the 132 00:07:08,744 --> 00:07:12,744 Speaker 1: seven these because he found this weird law right that 133 00:07:12,824 --> 00:07:16,704 Speaker 1: allowed him to do that. It's this very strange loophole 134 00:07:17,024 --> 00:07:20,664 Speaker 1: called the Coniferous Tree Exception that was passed in nineteen 135 00:07:20,704 --> 00:07:24,144 Speaker 1: thirty eight, which says that Christmas trees are one of 136 00:07:24,184 --> 00:07:27,944 Speaker 1: the only products anyone can sell anywhere in the sidewalk 137 00:07:27,944 --> 00:07:30,384 Speaker 1: in New York City without a permit at all. You 138 00:07:30,384 --> 00:07:32,464 Speaker 1: don't have to have a permit. It's totally unregulated. So 139 00:07:32,584 --> 00:07:35,104 Speaker 1: back in the seventies, this teenager named Kevin Hammer has 140 00:07:35,144 --> 00:07:37,664 Speaker 1: this idea to sell Christmas trees on sidewalks and how 141 00:07:37,664 --> 00:07:40,144 Speaker 1: does he go about doing it? So he borrowed a 142 00:07:40,144 --> 00:07:43,024 Speaker 1: friend's van and drove it up north just looking for 143 00:07:43,064 --> 00:07:47,064 Speaker 1: trees outside White River Junction in Vermont. He just saw 144 00:07:47,464 --> 00:07:49,584 Speaker 1: a truckle out of Christmas trees just going the other direction. 145 00:07:50,064 --> 00:07:52,664 Speaker 1: So then he spun the van around and flagged that 146 00:07:52,664 --> 00:07:55,024 Speaker 1: truck down, and then he like stopped him at a 147 00:07:55,064 --> 00:07:57,624 Speaker 1: gas station and he met this guy, George Nash, who 148 00:07:57,704 --> 00:08:00,744 Speaker 1: was a carpenter who was just driving that trucklet of 149 00:08:00,744 --> 00:08:03,264 Speaker 1: trees for someone else. And then Kevin Hammer was like, 150 00:08:03,344 --> 00:08:04,904 Speaker 1: where'd you get those trees? Like I need I need 151 00:08:04,904 --> 00:08:07,064 Speaker 1: to get some of those trees. And he pushed him 152 00:08:07,064 --> 00:08:09,424 Speaker 1: into a phone booth and told him, all the guy 153 00:08:09,424 --> 00:08:12,144 Speaker 1: whoever you got these trees from, call him I need 154 00:08:12,184 --> 00:08:14,544 Speaker 1: some and when you get them, I want you to 155 00:08:14,584 --> 00:08:16,544 Speaker 1: bring him down to New York City for me. And 156 00:08:16,584 --> 00:08:19,184 Speaker 1: then he set up his first tree stand outside Zabar's 157 00:08:19,224 --> 00:08:23,424 Speaker 1: on eighty first and Broadway. So Kevin Hammer meets the 158 00:08:23,464 --> 00:08:25,984 Speaker 1: guy with the Christmas trees, Nash, and they actually go 159 00:08:26,024 --> 00:08:29,504 Speaker 1: into business together, right, Yeah, So George Nash just drove 160 00:08:29,624 --> 00:08:31,384 Speaker 1: his trees down to him, like truck the trees in 161 00:08:31,424 --> 00:08:32,944 Speaker 1: for him the first few years, and then by like 162 00:08:32,944 --> 00:08:35,744 Speaker 1: the mid eighties, he was supervising like twenty of Kevin 163 00:08:35,744 --> 00:08:37,904 Speaker 1: Hammers stands because he had expanded something like forty or 164 00:08:37,944 --> 00:08:41,304 Speaker 1: fifty stands at that point. Why did they break up? Basically, 165 00:08:41,584 --> 00:08:45,704 Speaker 1: Kevin Hammer was growing increasingly tyrannical with his management techniques, 166 00:08:46,144 --> 00:08:48,864 Speaker 1: growing really paranoid. He moved out of New York down 167 00:08:48,904 --> 00:08:53,544 Speaker 1: to Florida. He's supposedly a very devout scientologist, and he 168 00:08:53,624 --> 00:08:56,184 Speaker 1: was getting more and more into that and growing sort 169 00:08:56,184 --> 00:09:00,464 Speaker 1: of increasingly alienated from his sort of non scientologist employees. 170 00:09:00,904 --> 00:09:04,704 Speaker 1: He supposedly like sort of cultivated this like inner circle 171 00:09:04,784 --> 00:09:08,224 Speaker 1: of scientologist advisors. Kevin Hammer denies all of this, or 172 00:09:08,264 --> 00:09:10,904 Speaker 1: at least he hasn't knowledged any of it. At some point, 173 00:09:10,944 --> 00:09:13,224 Speaker 1: you said Kevin Hammer was bringing in like a million 174 00:09:13,264 --> 00:09:17,144 Speaker 1: dollars a year in one month real he's on Christmas trees. Right, Yeah, 175 00:09:17,184 --> 00:09:21,104 Speaker 1: it's I think probably pretty conservative if you consider he 176 00:09:21,224 --> 00:09:25,664 Speaker 1: at some point had at least eighty ninety Christmas tree stands. 177 00:09:26,024 --> 00:09:27,744 Speaker 1: It's pretty easy to bring in a million dollars if 178 00:09:27,744 --> 00:09:29,944 Speaker 1: you have that many Christmas tree stands. And he's this 179 00:09:30,024 --> 00:09:33,384 Speaker 1: super mysterious figure, like if you want to open a 180 00:09:33,544 --> 00:09:37,864 Speaker 1: stand in his territory, you don't just call him and 181 00:09:37,944 --> 00:09:40,224 Speaker 1: meet with him, right, No, you couldn't call him if 182 00:09:40,224 --> 00:09:43,784 Speaker 1: you wanted to. He deliberate the least stays completely removed 183 00:09:43,864 --> 00:09:46,264 Speaker 1: from any of his businesses day to day operations. It's 184 00:09:46,344 --> 00:09:50,384 Speaker 1: very difficult to even tell which stands are his, because 185 00:09:50,424 --> 00:09:53,384 Speaker 1: his employees often don't know that they work for him, 186 00:09:53,544 --> 00:09:56,944 Speaker 1: necessarily because he's not like mentioned at any point in 187 00:09:56,744 --> 00:09:59,104 Speaker 1: the in the hiring process. Like you call a number 188 00:09:59,264 --> 00:10:03,264 Speaker 1: and then some voice unnamed tells you, like, all right, 189 00:10:03,664 --> 00:10:07,544 Speaker 1: you're in meet me, you know, at some street corner Manhattan. 190 00:10:08,064 --> 00:10:11,544 Speaker 1: You show up. You wait, You've got another phone call 191 00:10:12,344 --> 00:10:16,104 Speaker 1: that says, like, all right, build a shack, basically like 192 00:10:16,224 --> 00:10:19,504 Speaker 1: gather materials to build figure out how to build a yeah, 193 00:10:19,544 --> 00:10:24,264 Speaker 1: like gather palettes, plastic, garbage, whatever you need. And then 194 00:10:24,264 --> 00:10:26,064 Speaker 1: you get another call that says, like, all right, prepare 195 00:10:26,104 --> 00:10:29,544 Speaker 1: for the arrival of trees. They will be coming in 196 00:10:29,584 --> 00:10:32,424 Speaker 1: the night. And then at another sort of unknown time, 197 00:10:32,864 --> 00:10:34,904 Speaker 1: a truck will pull up. Some guys will throw a 198 00:10:34,904 --> 00:10:37,064 Speaker 1: bunch of trees on the street. You'll have to drag 199 00:10:37,104 --> 00:10:39,824 Speaker 1: them to the sidebook and then they give you like 200 00:10:39,864 --> 00:10:44,944 Speaker 1: a very very rough price rundown, and then they just 201 00:10:45,024 --> 00:10:47,464 Speaker 1: leave you. And then you just survey are selling Christmas trees. 202 00:10:47,464 --> 00:10:49,424 Speaker 1: And then at the end of every day, some guy 203 00:10:49,464 --> 00:10:52,024 Speaker 1: shows up and just takes the money. And someone rolls 204 00:10:52,584 --> 00:10:54,424 Speaker 1: up in like a black suv at the end of 205 00:10:54,464 --> 00:10:56,744 Speaker 1: every day and just takes your cash. The guys I 206 00:10:56,784 --> 00:10:59,064 Speaker 1: talked to said they refer to that guy as the 207 00:10:59,144 --> 00:11:02,784 Speaker 1: YO guy because they're just sitting in their little shack 208 00:11:02,824 --> 00:11:04,944 Speaker 1: and then someone just says like yo. And then that's 209 00:11:04,944 --> 00:11:07,464 Speaker 1: how you know. You just have to put the cash 210 00:11:07,544 --> 00:11:10,144 Speaker 1: in your pocket or in your sleep or whatever, walk 211 00:11:10,144 --> 00:11:12,264 Speaker 1: out to the suv, give the guy the cash, and 212 00:11:12,264 --> 00:11:14,024 Speaker 1: then he just drives away. You never talk to him, 213 00:11:14,064 --> 00:11:16,224 Speaker 1: you don't know his name. He's just the YO guy. 214 00:11:16,544 --> 00:11:19,064 Speaker 1: This is insane. There's a guy named Kevin Hammer who 215 00:11:19,064 --> 00:11:21,824 Speaker 1: owns all these businesses. No one ever meets him. He's 216 00:11:21,864 --> 00:11:24,944 Speaker 1: like Kaiser, so say, and the only interaction is like 217 00:11:25,264 --> 00:11:29,024 Speaker 1: a couple of phone calls with unnamed people and a 218 00:11:29,064 --> 00:11:31,784 Speaker 1: black suv and a YO guy. Yeah, most of the 219 00:11:31,784 --> 00:11:33,784 Speaker 1: people who work for him, that's the extent of their knowledge. 220 00:11:34,104 --> 00:11:37,424 Speaker 1: But why is this so secretive? I mean, it's Christmas trees. 221 00:11:37,464 --> 00:11:40,144 Speaker 1: If you sell fentonyl you know the guy you're buying 222 00:11:41,864 --> 00:11:43,344 Speaker 1: part of it. In the beginning, at least I've been 223 00:11:43,384 --> 00:11:46,784 Speaker 1: told is that it's just easier in some ways to 224 00:11:46,904 --> 00:11:51,424 Speaker 1: expand if people don't realize how big you're getting, Like 225 00:11:51,744 --> 00:11:55,864 Speaker 1: if your competitors don't know anything about your operations, then 226 00:11:56,504 --> 00:12:00,344 Speaker 1: you can expand pretty quick because they can't really keep 227 00:12:00,344 --> 00:12:01,504 Speaker 1: an eye on you. And then before you know it, 228 00:12:01,544 --> 00:12:03,224 Speaker 1: you have, you know, sixty stands and they're like, oh, 229 00:12:03,304 --> 00:12:06,304 Speaker 1: how did that happen? And there were literally sources who 230 00:12:06,344 --> 00:12:09,304 Speaker 1: wouldn't go on the record with their names right just 231 00:12:09,304 --> 00:12:12,424 Speaker 1: because they were talking about Hammer. Yes, if you mentioned 232 00:12:12,704 --> 00:12:15,384 Speaker 1: his name, like if you say Kevin Hammer and like 233 00:12:15,424 --> 00:12:18,864 Speaker 1: a group of treats salesman like hanging out, Gosh falls 234 00:12:18,904 --> 00:12:20,904 Speaker 1: out of the room. Are you worried about talking about 235 00:12:20,984 --> 00:12:23,584 Speaker 1: him or writing about him? No, I mean I'm a 236 00:12:23,584 --> 00:12:25,384 Speaker 1: little I don't think I want to say anything that's 237 00:12:25,424 --> 00:12:29,104 Speaker 1: like complete hearsay. Yeah, yeah, no, that for your own safety, 238 00:12:29,104 --> 00:12:31,664 Speaker 1: I shouldn't think. You shouldn't. I don't want to. I'm 239 00:12:31,664 --> 00:12:36,304 Speaker 1: gonna cut this whole part about Hammer. Kevin Hammer and 240 00:12:36,344 --> 00:12:39,584 Speaker 1: George Nash have been in a nearly forty year turf 241 00:12:39,584 --> 00:12:43,064 Speaker 1: war over corners in uptown Manhattan, and naive shoppers have 242 00:12:43,304 --> 00:12:45,904 Speaker 1: no idea how ruthless the fight for their business is getting. 243 00:12:46,704 --> 00:12:49,264 Speaker 1: And while Nash and Hammer haven't gotten violent with each other. 244 00:12:49,784 --> 00:12:54,584 Speaker 1: There is going to be a Christmas tree murder, but first, 245 00:12:54,944 --> 00:12:57,904 Speaker 1: our sponsors have some last minute gift ideas to offer you. 246 00:12:58,104 --> 00:13:00,384 Speaker 1: All of the items have their own ugly backstories of 247 00:13:00,384 --> 00:13:02,944 Speaker 1: how they were made that you'll never know about, because 248 00:13:03,024 --> 00:13:13,344 Speaker 1: that's capitalism. The New York Christmas Tree Trade is run 249 00:13:13,344 --> 00:13:15,744 Speaker 1: by a small group of people, each of them like 250 00:13:15,824 --> 00:13:18,664 Speaker 1: a character out of Guys and Dolls. Downtown Manhattan is 251 00:13:18,664 --> 00:13:21,584 Speaker 1: controlled by three people, one of whom is a former 252 00:13:21,704 --> 00:13:26,104 Speaker 1: carney who served time for impersonating a cop during a robbery. 253 00:13:26,944 --> 00:13:30,304 Speaker 1: There's a former fruit peddler who allegedly owns more than 254 00:13:30,464 --> 00:13:35,224 Speaker 1: four hundred houses somewhere in Arizona. And then, of course, 255 00:13:35,344 --> 00:13:39,744 Speaker 1: there's the recently deceased Willie the Hat who always wore 256 00:13:39,744 --> 00:13:43,864 Speaker 1: a fedora and these sharkskin gloves because he said they 257 00:13:43,864 --> 00:13:46,504 Speaker 1: were the only ones thin enough to count cash with. 258 00:13:47,984 --> 00:13:51,264 Speaker 1: Kevin Hammer and his former partner George Nash wind up 259 00:13:51,384 --> 00:13:55,264 Speaker 1: divvying up the entire uptown Christmas tree market. But their 260 00:13:55,344 --> 00:14:01,904 Speaker 1: detante doesn't last. Okay, so Nash and Hammer still control 261 00:14:02,264 --> 00:14:06,064 Speaker 1: much of uptown Manhattan, right, there's like a detant between them. Yes, 262 00:14:06,104 --> 00:14:09,464 Speaker 1: they got into a big sort of multi year turf 263 00:14:09,504 --> 00:14:13,744 Speaker 1: war over setting up outside Right Aid, like the Right 264 00:14:13,784 --> 00:14:16,504 Speaker 1: Aids in Manhattan. You know, that's like good, that's a 265 00:14:16,544 --> 00:14:18,944 Speaker 1: good spot outside Right Aid. Why is a Right Aid 266 00:14:18,984 --> 00:14:20,624 Speaker 1: good spot? You know, people have to go to Right 267 00:14:20,624 --> 00:14:25,304 Speaker 1: Aid people, people will see it. But the other good 268 00:14:25,344 --> 00:14:27,184 Speaker 1: thing is that you can make a deal with Right Aid, 269 00:14:27,224 --> 00:14:29,704 Speaker 1: like the company Right Aid, and now suddenly you can 270 00:14:29,704 --> 00:14:33,904 Speaker 1: set up outside you know, sixty Right Aids as opposed 271 00:14:33,904 --> 00:14:37,984 Speaker 1: to approaching sixty individual delis and trying to strike sixty 272 00:14:37,984 --> 00:14:40,104 Speaker 1: individual deals that you don't have to renew every single 273 00:14:40,384 --> 00:14:42,264 Speaker 1: you know year. If you just have a deal with 274 00:14:42,384 --> 00:14:46,504 Speaker 1: Right Aid, you just have immediately dozens of places you 275 00:14:46,544 --> 00:14:50,424 Speaker 1: can set up in Manhattan. George Nash had Right Aid first, 276 00:14:50,984 --> 00:14:55,704 Speaker 1: and then Kevin Hammer maybe wasn't so happy with how 277 00:14:56,024 --> 00:14:58,544 Speaker 1: George Nash was expanding into maybe some of his territory, 278 00:14:59,064 --> 00:15:02,144 Speaker 1: and then so then he stole Right Aid out from 279 00:15:02,224 --> 00:15:06,744 Speaker 1: underneath George Nash Nash toltening, and then they sort of 280 00:15:06,784 --> 00:15:10,304 Speaker 1: both thought over that for years, you know, like setting 281 00:15:10,384 --> 00:15:12,664 Speaker 1: up stands like right across the street from each other, 282 00:15:13,264 --> 00:15:16,384 Speaker 1: undercutting each other's prices. You'll see that You'll see like 283 00:15:16,384 --> 00:15:18,064 Speaker 1: they'll be like a Christmas tree stand and then like 284 00:15:18,144 --> 00:15:20,064 Speaker 1: right across the street there'll be another Christmas tree stand 285 00:15:20,304 --> 00:15:24,184 Speaker 1: and they're like competing franchises, both like lowering their prices 286 00:15:24,184 --> 00:15:26,024 Speaker 1: like crazy to try to you know, undercut the other. 287 00:15:26,824 --> 00:15:29,624 Speaker 1: So if you see two Christmas tree stands across the 288 00:15:29,664 --> 00:15:32,464 Speaker 1: street from each other, first of all, there's war going on. Yeah, 289 00:15:32,504 --> 00:15:34,984 Speaker 1: there's definitely something bad going on. But secondly, you'd probably 290 00:15:34,984 --> 00:15:36,984 Speaker 1: get a pretty good deal. Yeah, that's kind of ideal 291 00:15:37,464 --> 00:15:40,024 Speaker 1: for our customers. For sure. You probably get any deal 292 00:15:40,064 --> 00:15:43,504 Speaker 1: you wanted at that point. All Right, Brooklyn, where you are, 293 00:15:44,344 --> 00:15:48,624 Speaker 1: is mostly controlled by this guy Greg Walsh, right, and 294 00:15:48,624 --> 00:15:51,024 Speaker 1: he's the guy you work for. Yeah, so Greg has 295 00:15:51,104 --> 00:15:54,464 Speaker 1: kind of a slightly different approach to selling Christmas trees, 296 00:15:54,504 --> 00:15:56,904 Speaker 1: which is the opposite of Kevin Hammer in a lot 297 00:15:56,904 --> 00:16:00,704 Speaker 1: of ways. He doesn't throw up you know, like sixty 298 00:16:00,784 --> 00:16:02,944 Speaker 1: stands on like every single street corner in Brooklyn. He 299 00:16:02,984 --> 00:16:06,704 Speaker 1: has eight stands or locations, and they're just these like 300 00:16:06,864 --> 00:16:10,624 Speaker 1: massive block long like affairs. We have a big blow 301 00:16:10,704 --> 00:16:12,944 Speaker 1: up snowman on the roof of the trailer, and like 302 00:16:13,064 --> 00:16:15,784 Speaker 1: huge trees that up and stands like a million lights 303 00:16:15,824 --> 00:16:17,824 Speaker 1: and you know it says Greg's trees all over it. 304 00:16:17,944 --> 00:16:20,944 Speaker 1: He's like, let's just go really gratuitous and let everyone 305 00:16:20,984 --> 00:16:24,104 Speaker 1: know this is Greg's trees and try to win people 306 00:16:24,144 --> 00:16:26,304 Speaker 1: into this sort of like big box attitude. Tell me 307 00:16:26,344 --> 00:16:28,904 Speaker 1: a little bit about your boss, Greg. He looks exactly 308 00:16:28,944 --> 00:16:31,504 Speaker 1: like Santa. It's a really big guy. He has like 309 00:16:31,504 --> 00:16:35,504 Speaker 1: a really big bushy white beard, blue eyes, kind of 310 00:16:35,504 --> 00:16:37,664 Speaker 1: like red cheeks. He's kind of like a round nose. 311 00:16:37,904 --> 00:16:40,344 Speaker 1: Is a perfect Santa like. People comment on it when 312 00:16:40,384 --> 00:16:43,824 Speaker 1: they see him, and he plays it up all year round, right, Yeah, 313 00:16:43,904 --> 00:16:46,304 Speaker 1: like he's Santa full time. Well, first of all's truck 314 00:16:46,544 --> 00:16:50,544 Speaker 1: license plate is Santa O nine. He keeps like there 315 00:16:50,544 --> 00:16:52,744 Speaker 1: are other people that wanted that license plate. Yeah, I 316 00:16:52,744 --> 00:16:55,624 Speaker 1: wonder why why he chose O nine. I haven't asked 317 00:16:55,704 --> 00:16:57,784 Speaker 1: him about that. Actually, you know why the other eight 318 00:16:57,784 --> 00:17:02,464 Speaker 1: are all owned by half Yeah. Probably. And he keeps 319 00:17:02,504 --> 00:17:05,944 Speaker 1: like a Santa hat on his passenger seat at all times. 320 00:17:07,344 --> 00:17:09,704 Speaker 1: He'll just sort of randomly like throw it on and 321 00:17:09,864 --> 00:17:12,184 Speaker 1: just like shout ho ho ho out the window. It's 322 00:17:12,224 --> 00:17:13,984 Speaker 1: it's a pretty good way to get like deals, like 323 00:17:14,024 --> 00:17:16,464 Speaker 1: he um whatever. He brings his Santa suit to the 324 00:17:16,864 --> 00:17:19,584 Speaker 1: dry cleaner. They never charge him or like he'll walk 325 00:17:19,624 --> 00:17:21,544 Speaker 1: up to like a food truck and be like, you 326 00:17:21,664 --> 00:17:24,544 Speaker 1: got anything free for Santa, and they're always like, yeah, sure. 327 00:17:25,664 --> 00:17:28,704 Speaker 1: He's somehow trained himself to only say Jesus Christmas instead 328 00:17:28,704 --> 00:17:32,024 Speaker 1: of Jesus christ So he says that like all the time. 329 00:17:32,544 --> 00:17:35,184 Speaker 1: Is he crazy? No, Now, he's just having fun with it. 330 00:17:35,544 --> 00:17:39,144 Speaker 1: Thank He's definitely like a bit of his identity is 331 00:17:39,144 --> 00:17:43,464 Speaker 1: definitely fused with the Santa character in a certain sense, 332 00:17:43,504 --> 00:17:46,624 Speaker 1: which I think can be confusing for him and other people. 333 00:17:47,304 --> 00:17:49,384 Speaker 1: Look in what way is how's that come up? You know. 334 00:17:49,464 --> 00:17:52,744 Speaker 1: He's also a businessman, which is in many ways kind 335 00:17:52,744 --> 00:17:55,664 Speaker 1: of the opposite of being Santa. Oh right, Santa doesn't 336 00:17:55,744 --> 00:17:58,624 Speaker 1: charge at all. Yeah, the whole point of Santa is 337 00:17:58,664 --> 00:18:02,304 Speaker 1: that he's he's not profiting from this. He's a big gifter, 338 00:18:02,584 --> 00:18:05,824 Speaker 1: yeah for sure, but selling Christmas trees on the street 339 00:18:05,904 --> 00:18:09,584 Speaker 1: for fairly high prices and trying to retain a market 340 00:18:09,704 --> 00:18:12,784 Speaker 1: chair in a pretty cutthright business, you know, you can't 341 00:18:12,824 --> 00:18:15,504 Speaker 1: be too generous. Every year, he kind of does this 342 00:18:15,744 --> 00:18:19,064 Speaker 1: thing where he has to go through the rising cost 343 00:18:19,224 --> 00:18:21,944 Speaker 1: of bringing these trees to New York and you know, 344 00:18:21,984 --> 00:18:24,504 Speaker 1: paying his workers and building the stands, and then he 345 00:18:24,504 --> 00:18:25,904 Speaker 1: has to think, like, right, so how much do I 346 00:18:25,944 --> 00:18:29,584 Speaker 1: have to increase these tree prices? But it kind of 347 00:18:29,664 --> 00:18:32,624 Speaker 1: kills him to have to do that because every time 348 00:18:32,624 --> 00:18:35,904 Speaker 1: he raises the price, he's like imagining some family walking 349 00:18:35,904 --> 00:18:39,344 Speaker 1: away without a Christmas tree, and that he finds very upsetting. 350 00:18:39,584 --> 00:18:41,984 Speaker 1: So he kind of just oscillates back and forth for 351 00:18:41,984 --> 00:18:44,344 Speaker 1: like a month trying to figure out the price, and 352 00:18:44,384 --> 00:18:46,504 Speaker 1: then ultimately just arrives it, like we'll just we'll just 353 00:18:46,584 --> 00:18:49,424 Speaker 1: like it like ten bucks. It also feels like the 354 00:18:49,504 --> 00:18:53,304 Speaker 1: mafia obviously, and that there's these territories and these five families, 355 00:18:53,344 --> 00:18:55,864 Speaker 1: but it also feels like the Wire, where everyone's like 356 00:18:55,944 --> 00:18:59,384 Speaker 1: fighting for a street corner to sell their wares. Yeah, definitely, 357 00:18:59,704 --> 00:19:01,504 Speaker 1: it's like the Wire. It's like there's a fragile like 358 00:19:01,624 --> 00:19:05,664 Speaker 1: the territories always shifting around a little bit, and there's 359 00:19:05,704 --> 00:19:08,704 Speaker 1: a sort of acceptable level to grow. But if you 360 00:19:08,784 --> 00:19:10,944 Speaker 1: try to grow a little bit too much and too fast, 361 00:19:11,624 --> 00:19:15,064 Speaker 1: then trouble starts. And this analogy that I was making 362 00:19:15,064 --> 00:19:17,904 Speaker 1: between a crime ring isn't really that far fetched. You 363 00:19:18,104 --> 00:19:20,664 Speaker 1: found this one story that happened to a tree man 364 00:19:20,744 --> 00:19:23,544 Speaker 1: in the nineties what happened to this guy Glenn Walker. 365 00:19:24,984 --> 00:19:27,944 Speaker 1: So Glenn Walker was he was also a fruit peddler. 366 00:19:28,064 --> 00:19:30,344 Speaker 1: For most of the year he lived in Florida, but 367 00:19:30,384 --> 00:19:32,264 Speaker 1: he would come up to New York throughout the year 368 00:19:32,784 --> 00:19:36,264 Speaker 1: to sell fruits and like pumpkins, and then the winter 369 00:19:36,264 --> 00:19:39,504 Speaker 1: he would sell Christmas trees. And that was sort of 370 00:19:39,504 --> 00:19:42,144 Speaker 1: going well for like ten years, and then like his 371 00:19:42,224 --> 00:19:45,144 Speaker 1: eleventh year doing it, he was approached by these sort 372 00:19:45,184 --> 00:19:49,184 Speaker 1: of like cartoonishly mobster seeming people who actually wear mobsters, 373 00:19:49,424 --> 00:19:51,464 Speaker 1: but they were like wearing leather jackets, and they strolled 374 00:19:51,464 --> 00:19:53,384 Speaker 1: into his lot and they were like, all right, you're 375 00:19:53,384 --> 00:19:55,464 Speaker 1: gonna have to pay up. You gotta give us like 376 00:19:55,464 --> 00:19:59,064 Speaker 1: three grand or whatever to keep doing this, and he did, 377 00:19:59,464 --> 00:20:01,664 Speaker 1: like a protection racket. Yes, They basically we're like, you 378 00:20:01,704 --> 00:20:03,464 Speaker 1: need to pay us protection money or else you're not 379 00:20:03,464 --> 00:20:05,864 Speaker 1: gonna be selling here any longer. So he paid them 380 00:20:05,864 --> 00:20:10,184 Speaker 1: that first year, and then the second year they came thinking, Okay, 381 00:20:10,544 --> 00:20:14,824 Speaker 1: this guy's just on our payroll now, and he refused. Actually, 382 00:20:14,824 --> 00:20:16,664 Speaker 1: he was like, I'm not paying you guys this time around, 383 00:20:17,024 --> 00:20:19,664 Speaker 1: and instead he spent that same money he hired a 384 00:20:19,664 --> 00:20:23,144 Speaker 1: bunch of security guards. He like built this like big 385 00:20:23,464 --> 00:20:26,624 Speaker 1: fence around his lot. He had one armed security guard 386 00:20:26,984 --> 00:20:28,464 Speaker 1: and he was like, all right, like I like that, 387 00:20:28,624 --> 00:20:31,224 Speaker 1: like he try to get my trees now. And then 388 00:20:31,384 --> 00:20:35,944 Speaker 1: like a week later, someone threw two separate Molotov cocktails 389 00:20:35,944 --> 00:20:39,464 Speaker 1: like into his Christmas tree lot and burned up like 390 00:20:39,944 --> 00:20:42,464 Speaker 1: four hundred of his trees, which is like a huge 391 00:20:42,824 --> 00:20:44,584 Speaker 1: percentage of his trees. You know, it's probably like all 392 00:20:44,624 --> 00:20:47,024 Speaker 1: the profit he was going to make. And then I 393 00:20:47,104 --> 00:20:49,544 Speaker 1: was quiet for the rest of the season. And then 394 00:20:49,864 --> 00:20:52,464 Speaker 1: the next year he was getting ready for the season 395 00:20:52,504 --> 00:20:54,864 Speaker 1: to start. He was in his office. It was him 396 00:20:54,864 --> 00:21:00,504 Speaker 1: and his secretary, and then two guys barged in held 397 00:21:00,544 --> 00:21:03,464 Speaker 1: his secretary down, and then he was actually talking with 398 00:21:03,504 --> 00:21:05,624 Speaker 1: his wife on the phone at the time, so she 399 00:21:05,864 --> 00:21:08,184 Speaker 1: heard all this, and then she heard him say like 400 00:21:08,704 --> 00:21:10,664 Speaker 1: this is it, and then there was a gunshot and 401 00:21:10,664 --> 00:21:13,464 Speaker 1: then the phone went dead. So I was into him. 402 00:21:13,544 --> 00:21:18,464 Speaker 1: He is the only known Christmas tree fatality, but there 403 00:21:18,504 --> 00:21:20,344 Speaker 1: certainly was for a time there was some sort of 404 00:21:20,384 --> 00:21:23,344 Speaker 1: mob presence in the business. I'm worried for you. I 405 00:21:23,384 --> 00:21:25,264 Speaker 1: don't think you're made for this business. I think you 406 00:21:25,304 --> 00:21:28,384 Speaker 1: need to get out. Yeah, I mean, it's only one 407 00:21:28,424 --> 00:21:31,144 Speaker 1: month a year. But yeah, I hope we will not 408 00:21:31,184 --> 00:21:34,224 Speaker 1: have to be doing this again after this. I feel 409 00:21:34,224 --> 00:21:36,144 Speaker 1: like we've been talking for a while. You haven't sold 410 00:21:36,184 --> 00:21:38,464 Speaker 1: one damn tree, have you? No? Well, I have a 411 00:21:38,504 --> 00:21:41,864 Speaker 1: partner who's outside, so hopefully he's sold few trees by now. 412 00:21:41,944 --> 00:21:44,584 Speaker 1: Are you going to get a tree? Oh? Yeah, yeah, 413 00:21:44,624 --> 00:21:47,944 Speaker 1: I'll bring a tree home, definitely. I haven't picked one 414 00:21:47,944 --> 00:21:49,464 Speaker 1: out yet. Do you save like a good one? Are 415 00:21:49,504 --> 00:21:51,264 Speaker 1: you just gonna grab like the Charlie Brown one? No, 416 00:21:51,264 --> 00:21:53,864 Speaker 1: I'm definitely gonna get a good one. I'm gonna save 417 00:21:53,904 --> 00:21:56,024 Speaker 1: a good one. All right. Thank you so much for 418 00:21:56,104 --> 00:21:58,624 Speaker 1: doing this while you're at work, and for running the story. 419 00:21:58,624 --> 00:22:00,304 Speaker 1: It's so good. Thank you all. Yeah, thank you. I'm 420 00:22:00,344 --> 00:22:05,784 Speaker 1: really glad you liked it. Marry Christmas. Every few years 421 00:22:06,024 --> 00:22:08,824 Speaker 1: I read a story about the really ugly turf wars 422 00:22:08,864 --> 00:22:13,304 Speaker 1: between mister Softie and New York ice Cream. They're private 423 00:22:13,344 --> 00:22:17,544 Speaker 1: investigators and guys threatened with metal pipes. I'm sure that 424 00:22:17,584 --> 00:22:22,104 Speaker 1: the pumpkin patch guys, the pony ride peddlers, the pretzelo 425 00:22:22,184 --> 00:22:25,144 Speaker 1: cart people, they all have their own beefs and honor 426 00:22:25,144 --> 00:22:31,704 Speaker 1: code violations. It's what unregulated capitalism breeds in fact, as 427 00:22:31,744 --> 00:22:35,224 Speaker 1: we pass peak podcast, I've started to notice that other 428 00:22:35,224 --> 00:22:38,704 Speaker 1: people are encroaching on my space doing their own podcasts 429 00:22:38,704 --> 00:22:42,664 Speaker 1: about long form print journalism. I'm not saying you should 430 00:22:42,664 --> 00:22:46,224 Speaker 1: watch where you leave your audio equipment, but I'm not 431 00:22:46,304 --> 00:22:56,984 Speaker 1: saying you shouldn't. At the end of the show, what's 432 00:22:57,024 --> 00:23:00,344 Speaker 1: next for Joel Stein? Maybe he'll take a napp poke 433 00:23:00,424 --> 00:23:04,904 Speaker 1: around online. Our show today was produced by Kate mcculiffe 434 00:23:05,064 --> 00:23:08,664 Speaker 1: and Nisha Venke. It was edited by Robert Smith. Our 435 00:23:08,744 --> 00:23:12,824 Speaker 1: engine year is Amanda kay Way, our executive producer is 436 00:23:12,944 --> 00:23:16,784 Speaker 1: Katherine Giraldo, and our theme song was written and performed 437 00:23:16,824 --> 00:23:20,184 Speaker 1: by Jonathan Colton. And a special thanks to my voice 438 00:23:20,184 --> 00:23:25,104 Speaker 1: coach Vicky Merik and my consulting producer laurenz Elasnick. To 439 00:23:25,144 --> 00:23:29,864 Speaker 1: find more Pushkin podcast, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 440 00:23:30,224 --> 00:23:33,344 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'm Joel Stein 441 00:23:33,904 --> 00:23:36,704 Speaker 1: and this is Story of the Week. That's how we 442 00:23:36,744 --> 00:23:38,544 Speaker 1: see murder in this house. By the way, my son 443 00:23:38,584 --> 00:23:40,264 Speaker 1: and law let me do it all the time. Wait, 444 00:23:40,264 --> 00:23:45,064 Speaker 1: how does this end? Does it end in murder? Coming 445 00:23:45,184 --> 00:23:48,384 Speaker 1: up on Story of the Week. She has this secret 446 00:23:48,504 --> 00:23:51,624 Speaker 1: life that they don't even know about she's a dominatrix 447 00:23:51,784 --> 00:23:54,864 Speaker 1: in this place in the valley. Yeah, a place called 448 00:23:54,904 --> 00:23:57,744 Speaker 1: the leather Castle. Sounds nice in Van Nuys. Oh, it's 449 00:23:57,744 --> 00:24:01,024 Speaker 1: a castle. And she made good money and for her 450 00:24:01,064 --> 00:24:02,464 Speaker 1: that was great because then she could buy all this 451 00:24:02,504 --> 00:24:04,624 Speaker 1: cool hacker gear that she wanted to buy, like, she 452 00:24:04,784 --> 00:24:07,344 Speaker 1: could buy all these manuals. And she was living the 453 00:24:07,424 --> 00:24:09,344 Speaker 1: dream for her because she would she would just work nights, 454 00:24:09,384 --> 00:24:10,864 Speaker 1: and then she would work nights and then she would 455 00:24:10,904 --> 00:24:12,664 Speaker 1: just hang out on her phone conferences all day and 456 00:24:13,264 --> 00:24:13,824 Speaker 1: do hacking