S1: On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast cognitive.
S2: Function impairing awareness and pairing decision making their rate of recovery,
S2: how fast it took them to get back to probably 80%
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S1: Is able to withstand rigors of hypoxia, rigors of cold,
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S2: The more willing I am to extend myself into the
S2: unknown or the levels of discomfort, because I'm developing kind
S2: of an internal power or confidence.
S1: Help. Performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking and much more.
S1: My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show. This
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S1: Ben Greenfield. All right, folks, occasionally, as you know, I
S1: like to interview badasses on my show folks who are
S1: doing some pretty cool things in the realm of human
S1: performance and in this case, also, uh, human, human, uh,
S1: behavior in high stress environments. Uh, my guest on today's
S1: show is a guy who helped to develop the, uh,
S1: the the equipment out in my garage that I have
S1: a love hate relationship with these sandbags, uh, which I
S1: use and which my sons, when I have them at training,
S1: drag up and down the driveway, you know, chock full
S1: of sand. They're like these kettlebell shaped bags and overhead
S1: bags and all this, this crazy stuff made by a
S1: company called, uh, Brute Force. And Jeff Bannon is my
S1: guest on today's show, by the way, Jeff, do you
S1: pronounce your last name Bannon or Bondman or bonbon?
S2: Van, man.
S1: Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
S2: It's not just straight, man. Matt. Easy.
S1: Fancy French or something. If we wanted to bondman, uh, any. Anyways, uh,
S1: Jeff has over 30 years of experience across a lot
S1: of stuff like the fire service, the US Army Special
S1: Operations Command, the Central Intelligence Agency. Uh, for those of
S1: you unfamiliar with that, it's also called the CIA. Uh,
S1: Jeff serves as as the COO, like I mentioned, and
S1: the chief human performance officer for this fitness brand called
S1: Brute Force. So he's got he's got experience conducting counterterrorism
S1: operations in like, 23 different countries and different combat zones
S1: and a whole bunch of other high threat or, uh,
S1: or what are called non permissive environments. And, uh, he
S1: has had the privilege of dissecting human behavior at a
S1: pretty intense level in those pretty intense situations, and has
S1: even studied up on things like the minute shifts and
S1: heart rate variability that occur in a stressful scenario, and
S1: how the central nervous system can be managed under periods
S1: of significant stress. And so, um, not only does he
S1: really know his way around physical performance, but also around
S1: mental performance. And because I'm a fan of grit and
S1: of developing humans who are resilient and not only resilient,
S1: but in the way I'm educating my own sons, free
S1: thinking and independent and able to survive in unpredictable scenarios,
S1: which I think is a very handy skill for a
S1: human being to have these days. As a matter of fact,
S1: I think two two skills that every young human should
S1: learn is how to operate, uh, without producing large amounts
S1: of stress in high stress scenarios. And then secondarily, I
S1: think that a young human should be able to filter
S1: information and digest information through a specific filter or lens.
S1: Because we live in an information era where you just
S1: got to be able to do that. So, uh, regarding
S1: the latter, I'm not sure Jeff and I are going
S1: to talk too much about that, but the former. Absolutely. So, Jeff,
S1: welcome to the show.
S2: Hey, Ben, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Yeah.
S2: Look forward to.
S1: Today. Yeah. It's gonna be fun. So so I mean, like, I,
S1: you know, I always wonder when I talk to guys
S1: like you who are just, like, so deep in the trenches, uh,
S1: especially in, in, in these high stress scenarios and in
S1: many cases, you know, working with the armed forces and
S1: the CIA and working as a firefighter, is this something
S1: that you have always been into? Because people ask me
S1: that and I'm like, no, I grew up like reading
S1: The Lion, the witch and the wardrobe and programming computers. So.
S1: So when did you grow up as somebody who's just
S1: into all this stuff?
S2: Yeah. You know, actually, it's funny, I did I mean, I,
S2: my mother tells a story like when I was, you know,
S2: 4 or 5, whenever I could change my own clothes,
S2: whenever that age hit, like if I was playing army,
S2: I had to have my brown corduroys on. Or if
S2: I was playing fireman, I had to have my blue
S2: corduroys on. Like I was very distinct, like in character
S2: from a very young age. And, you know, I will
S2: say on that side of the equation, I've kind of
S2: gotten to live out all my childhood dreams, and I
S2: don't really know where those came from. That's not a
S2: family thing. Um, that's just who I kind of showed
S2: up to this planet debate.
S1: Yeah, yeah. Well, um, you know, I'm curious, you know,
S1: with that childhood where you actually kind of cross the
S1: threshold into beginning to work with some of these high
S1: performance communities. Can you walk me through what? How you
S1: got plugged in, so to speak?
S2: Yeah, man. You know, I gave a keynote a couple
S2: of years ago to one of the firehouse conferences, and
S2: I kind of in it. I just jumped in and
S2: kind of said, you know, my life when I look back,
S2: beautifully orchestrated, completely unplanned, um, you know, I was I was.
S1: As I say, God's God draws straight with crooked lines.
S2: Absolutely. Right. So, I mean, I was a 16 year
S2: old kid working at Domino's, uh, slapping pizzas and doing
S2: my thing. And, um, one of the drivers one day
S2: came by like a Saturday or something comes in the
S2: comes in the store and he's like, hey, man, come
S2: here and check this out. Like what? We walk outside,
S2: he pops his trunk and he's got fireman gear in
S2: his trunk, like, where'd you get that? He's like, I
S2: joined the firehouse down the street. I was like, what?
S2: He goes, yeah, you can do that. Next day I
S2: hopped in the car. I was like, oh, let's go
S2: check this out next day. Hop in the car. Drive
S2: down the firehouse. You know, 16 year old kid's stupid haircut. Hey,
S2: I want to be a fireman. Uh, and, uh, fill
S2: out the application. Because in the Northern Virginia area at
S2: that time, you know, big volunteer system, uh, big structure
S2: departments and and a lot of opportunity to do that. So.
S2: And then back then they've changed the law now, but
S2: back at 16, you could join and ride, you know,
S2: straight up and do everything. So it went pretty quick.
S2: I mean, I filled out the paperwork, got voted into
S2: the department, was in fire school like a week later,
S2: and off I went. Um, and, you know, I wasn't
S2: a big fan of high school. Uh, it just wasn't
S2: my gig was my thing. Uh, my senior year, I
S2: only take two classes to graduate. So I was the
S2: county's first intern. Uh, petitioned them to do an internship
S2: with them so I could get out of school early. Uh,
S2: and then got hired, like, 32 days after I graduated
S2: as the 14th career fireman hired in Loudoun County, Virginia,
S2: which they're now, like a department of 800 plus people. Um,
S2: so so, yeah, it was, uh, it was an it's
S2: been an interesting stage. And then get board, meet a
S2: recruiter a couple of years in, kind of feeling like, hey,
S2: am I going to be stuck being a fireman, you know,
S2: and doing this stuff? And, you know, not in the
S2: best shape, not super healthy. Kind of could see the
S2: writing on the wall that if I stayed at that
S2: time and the fire service, health and fitness wasn't really
S2: a key thing, wasn't a big driver and, uh, met
S2: this freaking recruiter who had just come out of Ranger
S2: Battalion and thought, hey, that sounds like a cool idea.
S2: Let's go get pushed to limit physically. Um, so join
S2: the Army. Went in, spend my time, uh, to Kosovo
S2: 99 for the first guys on the ground there, and
S2: then got out shortly after, uh, was back in the
S2: fire service, actually on duty the night of September 10th,
S2: having coffee the morning of September 11th, and then spent
S2: kind of the next four days in response down to
S2: the Pentagon. Yeah. Um, and then, you know, just because
S2: of the work I'd done and the unique things that
S2: I had, skill sets that I developed over time was
S2: doing some projects with some people. Guys from the agency
S2: were there. They were like, hey, what are you doing?
S2: I said this, they said, you want to come to
S2: work for us? I said, sure, and six months later
S2: I was in Africa working my first counter-terrorism operation. So
S2: it's kind of been a wild ride.
S1: Wow. So, so in terms of these counterterrorism operations, is
S1: that where you got into the whole mental game and
S1: performance under high stress scenarios, or was this something you
S1: were already kind of mulling on as a firefighter?
S2: Yeah, I mean, I think I was always mulling on it,
S2: you know, and I was always kind of the pain
S2: in the ass, the the different thinker, the, hey, we
S2: can do this a little better, um, kind of guy. And, uh,
S2: the unique thing was kind of our, our responsibility had
S2: both an external responsibility and an internal responsibility to train
S2: and develop some of our people. And kind of as
S2: we were progressing, beginning to look at things, you know,
S2: there was a what I would say, kind of a
S2: rudimentary education going on around mindset that they would teach
S2: in some of the programs. And I sat in those
S2: classes one time, super smart guy, former, you know, Seal
S2: team six guy. But like looking around the class, everybody,
S2: it was just missing everybody. And and I got it
S2: because I understood that world because I'd already kind of
S2: been reading and researching and really diving into some stuff. Um,
S2: and we just had to figure out a better way
S2: to deliver to get it connect. Um, and so actually,
S2: I called my uncle, uh, who, uh, did the cheesy
S2: Moms to Chef peanut butter campaign back in the day.
S1: To what?
S2: Did, uh, you remember choosey moms choose Jif.
S1: Oh, geez. Uh, now I'm feeling a little bit dumb,
S1: even though I. I don't consider myself a peanut butter aficionado,
S1: but perhaps a peanut butter addict for much of my life. Uh,
S1: but but no, not familiar.
S2: But that that was the big, huge campaign that that
S2: Jif came out with back a long time ago. Uh,
S2: so he's a big marketing guy, right? And he's a
S2: big emotional intelligence marketing guy. And I called John one
S2: day and said, hey, I have about an hour to
S2: deliver highly scientific yet highly emotional content. How can I
S2: do that? And and he was pretty integral in helping
S2: me understand how to develop a class with a certain
S2: flow that engage people's emotions and then dropped into logic
S2: and science and then brought them back in and just
S2: kind of rode this wave. Um, and then that compounded into, okay,
S2: how do we train and develop our people better? And,
S2: you know, out of that we were really up against,
S2: you know, some of the things during that time, post
S2: 911 had to understand. We're kind of a what I
S2: would call a head up force. So we're very thinking culture, right?
S2: Everything kind of goes on in the head, and we're
S2: dealing with a nose down culture where it's very much
S2: about intuition and instinct. You know, you show up in
S2: the environment. If I've got to meet people from the
S2: other side, like they're going to smell the nervousness or
S2: the energy on me instantly. So, uh, this is where
S2: we kind of just started down the line of discovery
S2: of how do we develop people to be capable to
S2: operate in those environments more effectively.
S1: So obviously there's a lot of different places that we.
S1: To start. But what I thought was kind of interesting
S1: that that caught my eye when I was looking over
S1: some of the things that you've done, is how you
S1: have kind of delved into the quantitative aspect of what's
S1: going on with the nervous system in a high stress scenario,
S1: and how you're calculating that, and then how you're then
S1: implementing specific tactics to be able to manage the central
S1: nervous system in those scenarios. And obviously, that's kind of
S1: a big question, but I'd love for you to kind
S1: of dive into how that actually looks.
S2: Yeah. So, you know, a couple things. I'm kind of
S2: a guy that, you know, okay, what's the question we're
S2: trying to answer with the what's problem we're trying to solve.
S2: How do I take people and get them more in body, more, uh,
S2: regulated more and begin to understand what's going on inside
S2: at any moment? Um, you know, traditional things even in fitness. Right?
S2: And even because this is all article, my thing is
S2: everything we're talking about is applicable to every aspect of life.
S2: So normal patterns of development are really more task based, right?
S2: Can I do this? Can I do that? Can I
S2: do this? Can I do that? I learned something, I
S2: developed a skill, I can demonstrate it. Now. It's like okay, cool.
S2: Now go out in the world and produce me results. Well,
S2: there's there's a big gap between, you know, stepping out
S2: of something and then producing quality results that really matter.
S2: And that was the place of play and discovery, really. Um,
S2: and I needed tools and resources that I could leverage
S2: in the field. I didn't have a lab. I didn't,
S2: you know, I needed the uncontrolled space to see what
S2: was actually happening, what the behaviors were that were being
S2: exhibited in very specific conditions. And so, you know, we
S2: went to heart rate variability. Uh, polar electro was really the,
S2: you know, polar electro heart math where the primary games
S2: in town at the start of it. And then I
S2: got to know the kid who developed a Zephyr bio harness.
S2: So we started using that because that gave me heart rate,
S2: heart rate variability, respiration rate, you know, all kinds of
S2: goodies and the ability to see it live, which was
S2: a big win.
S1: And by the way, that the use of that bio harness,
S1: the Zephyr bio harness, which I'm familiar with. And for
S1: those of you interested, it's a ZF. Why? Ah, if
S1: you want to look it up and I'll, I'll put
S1: all this stuff in the show notes. If you go
S1: to Ben Greenfield fitness.com/brute force podcast I know that that
S1: it does some some pretty advanced monitoring of things like
S1: central nervous system variables and HRV. But was that prior
S1: to the advent of some of these smaller wearables, like
S1: the aura or the hoop or the or the bio strap.
S2: I always joke and say it. If I could have
S2: published my documentation back in the day, I'd own hoop today. Uh,
S2: but you know, it was all done for another reason.
S2: So yeah, they didn't. Yeah, they didn't exist, uh, back
S2: then and, um, and really, at that time, heart rate
S2: variability was a fairly new part of the equation. I mean,
S2: heart math was really the leader in discovering heart rate
S2: coherence and stuff at the time. And, you know, their
S2: science is pretty solid, um, in a lot of ways.
S2: And so we began to look at the methodology, began
S2: to understand shifts in heart rate variability and what those were.
S2: And then I needed to develop a training methodology or
S2: scenario methodology that enabled me to apply very distinct stressors
S2: in certain conditions at certain times and then measure output. Right.
S2: So measure uh, information gathering awareness, uh, actions, behaviors, decision making,
S2: all those criteria. Right. Uh, what what the result what
S2: is actually coming into result. So, you know, what we
S2: found was a couple unique things. One, using heart rate
S2: variability in that methodology. Uh, we we started to outline
S2: what we call the stacking effect, which was interesting.
S1: Okay.
S2: So, uh, for instance, if I've got, uh, a group of,
S2: you know, operational people, uh, going into a scenario very
S2: hyper realistic, a lot of work to it. And I'm
S2: laying in, you know, I, I'm laying in like small things, like, uh,
S2: you know, old man and garb walking across the street
S2: in front of the car and extra little people hanging
S2: out there or kids playing soccer, whatever it is. Right.
S2: I'm I'm adding in all these kind of peripheral stressors
S2: that have no impact on what they're about to do,
S2: but start to cause the brain to to separate its
S2: thinking process. Okay. And, and in data, what we're able
S2: to see is a kind of each, each application of stress,
S2: either that's an indirect, uh, satellite or a direct stressor
S2: at each application. Was the individual recovering from that heightened experience?
S2: Were they integrating specific techniques to maintain control of their
S2: central nervous system?
S1: Now, now when you say recover, do you mean like, um,
S1: I'm met with a stressful scenario and, you know, let's
S1: use a very small example, a bunch of lines jumping
S1: out from the email inbox on my computer. And, uh,
S1: you know, we know that you can do, like, just
S1: say three settling breaths, right? Two count in through the nose,
S1: four count out through the mouth three times. And and
S1: you can measure. And I've done this, you know, a
S1: pretty significant near. Instantaneous shift in heart rate variability. Now
S1: is what you're alluding to the fact that that can
S1: be trained or is better managed in certain individuals. And
S1: you were starting to measure that.
S2: Yeah. So that's really I mean, ultimately it's you know,
S2: I kind of I joke after I teach a 4
S2: or 5 day class, I'm like, hey, we just spent
S2: five days together. And really all I did was taught
S2: you how to breathe. Um, because that is that's the
S2: primary course of action, right? And a a rhythmic releasing
S2: breath process, very similar to what you described, a few
S2: mods to it, a few distinct characteristics to it. You know,
S2: it is it becomes the primary source for for regulating
S2: the central nervous system. When I begin to combine that
S2: with anchoring into the present moment, right. Getting off the
S2: thought trains, not getting spun into a different direction. When
S2: I return to now, whatever condition I'm in, I'm able
S2: to begin to regulate that system. Now you also have to,
S2: you know, understand. That's not like going from, oh crap,
S2: we're about to get in a firefight to like, oh,
S2: I'm totally chilled out on the beach. The, you know,
S2: you need to use the advantages of your system however
S2: you want to keep it in in zone. Right? Just
S2: like fitness, just like we're working out. You want to
S2: be in the zone that you need to be in
S2: to perform at the level you want to perform. So
S2: even applying the same techniques, no matter what the conditions are,
S2: my system is regulating to the optimal space. And, you know,
S2: and then we're able to see that on data. I'm
S2: able to actually measure, uh, impact and severity of the
S2: stressor on the individual. I'm able to measure, uh, the
S2: what I would call the time under threshold or, you know,
S2: slang term dragging the bottom, uh, which is the time
S2: that they are dropping their heart rate variability, comparing cognitive function,
S2: impairing awareness, impairing decision making, and then their rate of recovery,
S2: how fast it took them to get back to probably 80%
S2: of their base. Right. And I'm able to see that
S2: on the data. Does that help or make sense.
S1: Yeah, absolutely. Now now you refer to a couple of
S1: things there. I've obviously treated breathwork pretty extensively on prior podcast.
S1: Kind of kicked that horse to death. But you mentioned
S1: a few other things like like you said, anchoring in
S1: a specific moment and then you said something after that.
S1: So in addition to breathwork, what would you say? Ah,
S1: when someone is in a high stress scenario, whether it's
S1: physical or emotional or mental stress, what are some of
S1: the other big wins that you found through that quantification
S1: process that just work like gangbusters for managing stress in
S1: those scenarios?
S2: Yeah, man. I mean, most times what happens is when
S2: we when we experience and I like to refer to
S2: a load on the system, you know, less about stress.
S2: And it's very individualized across the board is what I
S2: found in all of these studies. So um, but when
S2: there's a load on the system and the system kind
S2: of starts moving into a state of arousal, right? And
S2: things start kind of working. I'm stressed, I'm feeling a
S2: certain way. There's some real distinct tactics to use, because
S2: what begins to naturally happen in the untrained or undeveloped
S2: person is my system start to work in conflict, meaning
S2: my brain, my thought patterns are are are skewing off
S2: into more than likely a future based outcome. Right? Fear
S2: is just a projection in the future of what may
S2: or may not happen. So my mind is getting ahead
S2: of myself then and it's triggering things. Have it even
S2: happened yet? Which my body is trying to move into alignment, saying, hey,
S2: I may be under threat or something's going on. There's
S2: a perception that something's going on and I need more
S2: right now in this minute. So central nervous system is
S2: kicking into cue. You're getting all the chemical dump. You're
S2: doing all those things. Mind starts shaping forward into creating
S2: kind of worry, doubt or whatever it might be conflicting
S2: back and sending disconnected messages back down to the central
S2: nervous system. So I'm operating a conflict at that point. And,
S2: you know, you said something interesting about, um, the way
S2: you want your boys to grow up, right? And I
S2: really like to when I'm teaching, I break down the
S2: difference between perception and discernment. I believe discernment is really
S2: a gateway to seeing what is actually happening, being very
S2: flat about it, versus a perception which is going to
S2: go through our filters, which may go through our biases,
S2: which is more interpretive, if you will. So. So utilizing
S2: the right breathwork, coming back to the present moment, anchoring
S2: into what's actually occurring and dealing with the challenges at hand,
S2: kind of being very, very flat about it. You know,
S2: you used to call it, you'd see guys out of
S2: Seal Team six or Delta who, you know, guys had
S2: been in combat. We we call it a thousand yard stare.
S2: It just looks like they're burning a hole right through you. Um.
S2: They are they have trained over time to be extremely discerning.
S2: They're just assessing factually what's happening. So when I can
S2: get to that place that actually starts to bring brain heart,
S2: central nervous system into alignment rather than this kind of
S2: disrupted space fighting. Against each other, compounding the effects. And
S2: now I am actually more settled, and I'm allowing my
S2: body to do its natural course of action to give
S2: me the energy or the blood flow or the breath,
S2: whatever it is, I physically need to deal with it
S2: in that moment.
S1: Can that be trained and if so, how are you
S1: having something like that?
S2: Oh yeah. So I mean, some of it's fairly easy.
S2: I mean, it's, you know, it's been crazy across the board.
S2: There's really no difference between, um, you know, a pro golfer,
S2: an operator, a guy in the stock exchange floor, a
S2: CEO running a public traded company. Um, you know, one,
S2: the the breathwork is key now. And I know you've
S2: exhausted this. I'll just do this quickly. Uh, our technique is,
S2: you know, nasal breath in roughly about a four count
S2: deep into the diaphragm. Right. Fully engagement. I find a
S2: lot of people have to actually learn to re-engage their
S2: diaphragm because there are more shallow chest breathers than they
S2: are diaphragmatic breathers. So, you know, there's the practice of that.
S2: So fundamentally, I'm taking control on the way in. I
S2: feel good about it. I'm controlling my breath deep in
S2: the diaphragm, full expansion. And then I just do an
S2: open mouth, relaxed jaw, allow the breath to leave the
S2: body at its own pace.
S1: And by the way, it's interesting I should mention the
S1: open mouthpiece because a lot of people will tell me,
S1: why don't you? Why don't you breathe out through the
S1: nose the same way that you would breathe in through
S1: the nose? Because, you know, you breathe in and you
S1: get the nitric oxide and, and the filtering and some
S1: of the better oxygenation, but then breathing out, it's interesting
S1: that there's a few different things that happen Biomechanically. But
S1: one important one is you actually see like a little
S1: bit more movement of the diaphragm when when you breathe
S1: out through your mouth, it seems to somehow incorporate more
S1: of those diaphragmatic muscles and also allows for a little
S1: bit more control. Meaning you've almost got this, this built
S1: in meter, meaning your purse, lips, and how forcefully you
S1: exhale through those pursed lips of the the length and
S1: the intensity of the exhale. It's more it's more difficult
S1: unless you're reaching out to and pinching your nostrils through
S1: a nasal exhale to be able to modulate the outflow
S1: as opposed to breathing out through the mouth. So I, I'm,
S1: you know, typically 90% of the time doing breath work,
S1: unless it's getting into a real hefty pranayama. Right, right.
S1: I'm usually going in through the nose, out through the mouth.
S2: Mhm. Yeah. I mean it's uh, it's really I call
S2: it the, the return to the original breath. Right. You
S2: look at your kids until about age five, seven. They're
S2: belly breathers. They don't care. They don't even think about it.
S2: Then they hit the playground. They got to start posturing,
S2: you know shoulders rise, chest comes up. I move my
S2: breath up to the upper chest. And there I am,
S2: shallow breathing. Right, because it becomes more about posturing and demonstrating.
S2: So returning to the original breath and the other thing
S2: that you're doing in that, in that giving up control
S2: kind of I almost described, like letting gravity right, pull
S2: the breath away, let the let the allowing the breath
S2: leave the body. You're also triggering the, the vagus nerve
S2: and you're sending signals of safety to the brain. Right.
S2: So you're actually checking in with yourself, going, hey, I'm safe.
S2: And this is another kind of core aspect of what
S2: we discovered. I fundamentally believe now. And I've said it
S2: several times, there's really only one question that matters to
S2: every being on the planet. And that is am I safe? Right.
S2: That's the that's the constant check. Am I safe? Am
S2: I safe to say this, be this, do this right?
S2: Am I say physically so right so well?
S1: Am I safe? Am I, uh, what are the three things?
S1: Basically security, uh, um. And control am I loved meaning
S1: am I being seen and heard? And there's a third.
S1: Why am I blanking on the third? It's to. It's
S1: to be loved. It's to be in control. And it's
S1: to be.
S2: Is that to be acknowledged or be or you said
S2: be seen. Right. So all.
S1: Right. Jumping through the podcast right now screaming screaming at us.
S2: So so fundamentally here's what we're doing when we align,
S2: when we bring everything together. You know, safety is a
S2: matter of perception. Most of us don't have quality anchors
S2: of safety from growing up. Right. It's skewed. Safety is
S2: not necessarily we don't label it good or bad. It's
S2: a sensation in the body that we're radically unfamiliar with.
S2: And and so when I align the breath with the
S2: cognitive tools, with the anchoring in the present moment, I'm
S2: validating the sensation being experienced in the body. Like right now,
S2: sitting at my computer, I'm sitting at my desk. I
S2: get to look out at the beautiful backyard. We've got
S2: eight inches of snow on the ground right now. It's
S2: snowing like a fiend. It's wonderful. And I get to breathe,
S2: sit in and anchor into this present moment, going, oh,
S2: how cool is this? I'm I'm in the experience of
S2: the moment and it's registering down into my lower systems
S2: as I'm okay, I'm safe, I'm good. The more I
S2: develop that, the more comfortable I become being in uncomfortable situations.
S3: Mhm.
S2: Right. The more willing I am to kind of extend
S2: myself into the unknown or the levels of discomfort, because
S2: I'm developing kind of an internal power or confidence that
S2: I will be able to figure things out, that I
S2: will be able to deal with it, that. I will,
S2: you know, be okay.
S1: Yeah, yeah. And that that reminds me when you said
S1: that that jog my memory. It's control. So basically, you
S1: want to be safe and secure. You want to be loved, accepted,
S1: you know, noticed, seen and heard. And then we desire control. Like,
S1: those are the three basic things. Safety, uh, love and control. Well, hello.
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S1: with psychedelics, creative and introspective thinking, improved mental health, more empathy, uh,
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S1: alternative to alcohol. They, uh, you know, like a connoisseur
S1: of kava. Uh, yeah. That was actually exists. There are
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S1: you know, I understand that, you know, through breathwork and
S1: through anchoring into the present moment, we can begin to
S1: develop this ability to be able to operate well under
S1: significant stress. Would you say there's anything else, mentally or
S1: emotionally that are big, big things that you focus on?
S2: Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things though,
S2: we won't get into it today, but I've got a
S2: math equation for what kind of this looks like. I
S2: had to figure out a way. I had to figure
S2: out a way. Not not only. Yeah, so not only
S2: to develop like the systems and the understanding, but then
S2: how do I train operators? How do I train anybody?
S2: How do I communicate this effectively so people get it. Um,
S2: and got super smart people around me. I mean, guys
S2: from Wharton had a, uh, performance at the Pirates who
S2: was working at the Navy at the time, uh, doing
S2: some things with us, like really big brain people. And
S2: I would, you know, send them things like, hey, does
S2: this work? And we came up with this math equation
S2: for how do I develop certain behavioral traits that we
S2: identified through about 300 interviews that exist in the top
S2: tier performance performers and either don't exist or exist in
S2: very small forms and fashion at the lower end of
S2: the spectrum. And what we found was these and I
S2: kind of just talked about them, I call it their C3, uh,
S2: which is a extreme level of comfort and very uncomfortable
S2: or dysregulated situations. They just can go anywhere in the
S2: world anytime, just because they're good, because they've anchored that,
S2: that model of safety and trust in themselves. Which leads
S2: to the second C, which is confidence, a true faith
S2: in self, a true faith in their own abilities and
S2: their training. Which then leads to the third level, which
S2: is creativity, right? The the ability to figure it out.
S2: I mean, I spent my life being dropped into various
S2: countries with crap information, half stuff this, that and like, okay,
S2: go sort it out. Um, and and you just learned
S2: and natively do that over time and experience. However, following
S2: the distinct process, you can begin to speed that up rapidly. Um,
S2: but in that component, the key aspect that is the
S2: developer of that is a person's level of openness, which
S2: can be measured. And openness is a is a kind
S2: of a composite of curiosity, use of imagination and humility.
S2: And so when I have those subtle factors behind the scenes,
S2: when when people are truly open to experiences, open to learning,
S2: they're not coming with, you know, all their judgment, like, oh, no, well,
S2: somebody else taught me this, and this is the way
S2: it goes. You know, it's like breathwork. I mean, I
S2: it's all valuable to me, right? I mean, if you
S2: as long as it's practice, as long as it's developed,
S2: as long as there's some data behind it, you got
S2: to find what works for you. I'm not like you
S2: have to do it this way kind of guy. So
S2: those key aspects at the underlying aspect of human behavior
S2: are the catalyst for real performance, real change, real capability.
S1: Yeah. Yeah. And there's kind of a corollary here. And
S1: this is kind of a perfect segue because I wanted
S1: to get into this whole idea of unstable physical loading,
S1: because I know that's something you're also kind of expert in,
S1: because that's where this whole, like, idea of sandbags and
S1: sand filled kettlebells and things that you guys have at,
S1: at brute force, come in. You know, what I've found
S1: is when training with kettlebells and sandbags and kegs and,
S1: you know, so-called strongman training, I still think one of
S1: the better books out there I read back in the day,
S1: I interviewed on my podcast, I'll find a link and
S1: put it in the show notes for you all at
S1: Ben Greenfield fitness.com/brute force podcast. Uh, strength coach named Zach
S1: Evans I think has one of the best strongman training
S1: books out there. It's kind of like how I learned
S1: to build up my little garage gym, chock full of
S1: equipment that is full of unstable loads. I've found that
S1: when I wind up in the average hotel gym with
S1: Nautilus machines and symmetrical barbells and dumbbells, that it feels
S1: so easy. But mentally and physically compared to this unstable,
S1: unpredictable loading. And, you know, obviously from a very broad standpoint,
S1: most people get it that when you use an unstable
S1: load or something slightly asymmetrical like a kettlebell, that you
S1: are going to develop the ability to perhaps recruit muscles
S1: in a manner that allows for more stability. But I'd
S1: love to take an even deeper dive into what's going
S1: on with with so-called I think you guys at brute
S1: Force call it call it ulu training.
S2: Yeah. So that's kind of the core, uh, fundamental process. Right?
S2: The unstable load on object was what was developed.
S1: Unstable load. Odd object.
S2: Yep. Unstable load on object. So, uh, that was the
S2: program that, uh, one of our team members, uh, Chris Lane,
S2: came up with. Phenomenal guy, super beast, way forward. Thinker. Um,
S2: and put it to the test. Took it to the universities,
S2: started laying it out. We're going to be launching the
S2: level one certification course online, uh, here in about three months,
S2: I think. Um, but. Right. So this is kind of
S2: the fundamental context of the, of the sandbag or whatever
S2: shifting load work you're going to do. Um, for me,
S2: I love it. Now 47 years old, uh, a lot
S2: of damage to the body. Uh, you know, a lot
S2: of a lot of use on this kid, uh, over time. And,
S2: you know, for me, what I find is fundamentally because
S2: it is you are no matter what your movement is,
S2: your body is always regulating. You know, I compare it to, like,
S2: the new way to design cars. You're driving the car. However,
S2: what's going on underneath of that is suspension's constantly shifting
S2: tire pressures may be shifting. Like if you're buying a, uh,
S2: you know, fully upgraded car. The calculations that are being
S2: done to make that a smooth ride for you are incredible.
S2: And that's really a good comparison to to working with
S2: the unstable load to working with the sand bags. You know,
S2: you're taking very specific basic movements that you may do
S2: on CrossFit or other environments now, but you're adding a
S2: level of complexity because you are internally managing this load
S2: that is constantly moving back and forth. I mean, it's
S2: it's always funny to me when I see other sandbags
S2: out there or people out there who like to pack
S2: their sandbags so full, it basically becomes just a weighted,
S2: you know? Bah. Yeah, that's.
S1: That's a funny thing. If it's if it's too full,
S1: it's actually paradoxically easier. It's heavier but easier.
S2: Absolutely. You know, and and so because you are firing
S2: all the, uh, neuromuscular connect, you know, connective tissue, all
S2: the activities inside, all the internal stuff, you're actually, you know,
S2: and I'm being the geek that I am, I'm, I'm
S2: now putting data to the data to this to look at, uh,
S2: what's actually happening within the central nervous system. Uh, heart
S2: rate raises faster, uh, increases recovery time at a faster rate.
S2: You know, if combined with breathwork. And we can talk
S2: about some of the things that we're doing. Uh, so
S2: I'm literally laying out now taking the fundamentals. We learned
S2: the things we did in the operational environment now truly
S2: like breaking them down into this fitness model. And, you know,
S2: we've been in conversations about what's next beyond functional fitness,
S2: what's next, beyond what's out there. And we're testing it
S2: out in the challenge now, with a lot of people
S2: moving more towards this idea of instinctual fitness, right? This
S2: idea of full body, brain, mind, breathwork alignment in the
S2: activity so that I am reentering points of safety, I'm
S2: extending my point of comfort. I'm willing to be a
S2: little more discomfort or excuse me, uh, uh, uncomfortable or uncomfortable. Yeah.
S2: Sorry about that. Uh, coming from a couple of days
S2: of brain fog being sick a couple months ago, um,
S2: still not firing on all cylinders. And glad we didn't
S2: do this yesterday. I canceled a show yesterday, uh, that
S2: I was going to be on because I was just
S2: not functioning. Why so willing to say again?
S1: Why were you not functioning?
S2: Oh, so I mean post post my Covid in November.
S1: Oh, it was like post-Covid brain fog. Yeah.
S2: And some days it just comes out of nowhere and
S2: it's like I'm just. I feel like I'm, you know,
S2: an idiot. Uh, yeah.
S1: So yeah, there's there's, there's, there's certain things that can help,
S1: like a lot of those, those, uh, intranasal peptides like
S1: Cmax and cerebral ice, and those are amazing for that. Yeah. Uh,
S1: I think that's like top of the totem pole. And
S1: then the other thing is, from a technology standpoint, like
S1: the two things, because I've had people with, with like
S1: brain fog and even post-Covid issues, you know, who visit
S1: my house and down to my basement, I have all
S1: these toys and, uh, the, the hyperbaric chamber and, and
S1: then there's this other device called a bio charger that
S1: combines near-infrared, uh, radiofrequency PMF and infrared light. And there's
S1: some settings on there that are directly correlated to frequencies
S1: for stimulating the brain. That and then there's this thing
S1: called a v light. V light is developed for dementia
S1: and Alzheimer's. But it if at a at a 40Hz
S1: signal it just turns on the brain. They have a
S1: ten hertz alpha more relaxing signal. But like that that's
S1: that's like kind of some of the more advanced stuff
S1: a lot of people may not know about is intranasal peptides,
S1: hyperbaric bio charger, and the V light. Like you stack
S1: those and you can beat back just about any form
S1: of brain fog.
S2: Oh well then I will. When we're done here, I will, uh,
S2: get on the line and get some stuff situated. Yeah.
S1: Okay. Anyways, though, I derailed you. So you you're talking
S1: about how stupid you are? No, I'm just kidding. Um,
S1: and then, uh. Anyway.
S2: Right. So extending the ability to be uncomfortable. Right. To be.
S2: Because that's where growth occurs. We know this, right? I mean,
S2: you serve yourself up daily to you know, what's next?
S2: I mean, I I've curated my Instagram feed to to
S2: get what I want, you know, and actually enjoy my
S2: time when I do have the moment to scroll through.
S2: And every point is like a value somebody I appreciate,
S2: somebody I want to learn from, somebody who's bringing some
S2: on the table. You're on that stack and have been
S2: for quite some time to get some tips for.
S1: I've never scrolled through Instagram in my life. I have
S1: yet to figure that out. I post to it sometimes,
S1: but I I've never I've never actually scrolled through Instagram.
S1: I've never even played around with that screen.
S2: No man, I've kind of figured out how to curate that.
S2: So it's effective. Um, but part of the job being
S2: out there. So anyway, um. So this whole process, right
S2: when we begin to align a more disruptive movement pattern,
S2: you know, for instance, we had the big guys in
S2: the gym the other day, the big boys, we said,
S2: all right, you know, why don't you kind of do
S2: a warm up set with 135 barbell clean and press,
S2: just go. Go until you're kind of like, okay, I'm good.
S2: I'm functioning ready to go. And then we break out
S2: the £135 sandbag and said, okay, now you got to Max.
S2: You got to meet the same rep things. And it
S2: was halved. Um, and one of the big guys who's
S2: a big strongman guy, Olympic lifter, he literally through the
S2: back down and was like, I'm now clear. If I
S2: need to get stronger, that's what I need to do. Yeah.
S2: You're seeing them by, you know, seven. Like grabbing other handles,
S2: trying to figure out how to manipulate the bag, trying
S2: to get it up, just sweat pouring off of them
S2: so you it's not a one for one correlation. We
S2: tell people that all the time. Like don't try to
S2: start off at £100 of sand. It ain't going to work,
S2: you know. Yeah. Get your get your ego out of
S2: the way.
S1: Yeah. And what's interesting is it's unstable load training a
S1: lot of times people will find despite lifting lighter weights
S1: they'll be more sore. And when you when you think
S1: about it, there's actually a concept in in exercise physiology
S1: called inhibitory postsynaptic potential. So what that means is, is
S1: basically when you're using all these big prime movers, these
S1: big muscles that you're used to using, a lot of
S1: times you get used to using and stabilizing using those
S1: big muscles. But once you add in an odd asymmetrical object,
S1: it shifts a lot of the load to different areas.
S1: In the joint, you get different neuromuscular recruitment, and you're
S1: going to begin to recruit all these tiny, stabilizing muscles
S1: that inevitably result in kind of an increased, delayed onset
S1: muscle soreness post-workout, but also results in using your beautiful
S1: analogy about the car, a better ability of the body
S1: to be able to modulate itself under stress, almost like a,
S1: you know, like a, like a Ferrari. And so the
S1: only thing I've really found that that simulates that type of, oh, gosh,
S1: I didn't realize I have all these muscles I haven't
S1: been using. I'm sore type of effect is electrical muscle
S1: stimulation training, right, where you're basically just overriding the brain
S1: and going, you know, bypassing the brain that's really working
S1: during the unstable load on object training instead just saying,
S1: all right, we're just going to shock you into submission.
S1: And you use an external controller rather than the brain.
S1: But it's similar concept. Both electrical muscle stimulation and unstable
S1: load training wind up with a neuromuscular recruitment that often
S1: even if even if you're thinking about using those other
S1: stabilizing muscles like thinking about, say, turning on your glute
S1: meed by driving your knees out at the bottom of
S1: a squat and externally rotating your hips. Even then, it
S1: seems that once you throw an asymmetrical object in, or
S1: once you throw electrical muscle stimulation in there, there's no choice, right?
S1: It automatically shifts the body into using those muscles whether
S1: you like it or not.
S2: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and that's why we're, you know,
S2: we're big proponents of, you know, integration of this. You know,
S2: we've got some people in our community that are 100%
S2: sandbag all the time, you know, every day. That's just
S2: their thing. That's what they have in the garage. Right?
S2: That's where they that's where they live and operate. But
S2: we've also seen this massive influx of, you know, big
S2: time crossfitters, big time lifters now moving to a 2
S2: or 3 day a week kind of sandbag integration. And, um, again, I,
S2: you know, going through the process here, like I want
S2: to I'm curious to see now if, if we can,
S2: we're going to get a bunch of crossfitters do a
S2: huge study on it, um, that we're going to take
S2: some core movements where they're plateauing, move them to certain
S2: sandbag exercises for distinct period of time, and then come
S2: back and see the gains. My my theory is they're
S2: going to be pretty, pretty solid. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah.
S2: Because you come back to that bar after working sand
S2: for a period of time, it's it's like, you know,
S2: what is this thing?
S1: Yeah, yeah. And then and then like, boots on the
S1: streets for, for people who haven't ever done this type
S1: of training. You know what what we're talking about is equipment. Like,
S1: like if you were to go to, to your website, Jeff,
S1: basically you've got sandbags, which we've established you shouldn't overfill,
S1: keep them kind of loosey goosey, but still to load
S1: the challenges you you've got balls which are, you know,
S1: like sand filled, adjustable, you know, Atlas Stone style balls
S1: that are also obviously somewhat unstable. And then you've got, uh,
S1: your kettlebells that you can fill with sand, which I
S1: kind of like. You can also take these when you,
S1: when you travel and just fill them up whenever you
S1: get to where you're going and not pay an ungodly,
S1: you know, 70kg, uh, TSA fee, uh, and then you've
S1: got weighted vests. Now, let's say that somebody's like, okay,
S1: we're gonna I think you guys even have like a
S1: garage gym bundle on your website. Let's say somebody like,
S1: grabs that bundle, they've got all this shit laying around
S1: in their garage. Walk me through what, in your opinion,
S1: like a gold standard. Typical training session would be for
S1: the folks who are kind of like the 8020s. They're like,
S1: all right, there's probably a hundred different workouts I could
S1: do with these things, but what would be an example
S1: of like a go to workout in a scenario of
S1: Oulu training using these type of, uh, using this type
S1: of equipment?
S2: Yeah. So, you know, one of the things before we
S2: get into, I'm going to tell you, I mean, one
S2: of the things I love about Sam. I personally just
S2: coming from my background. It is. It is definitely a
S2: more visceral based workout like you. There are things you
S2: get to do with the sandbag. You don't get to
S2: do it. Everything else. And so one of the kind
S2: of one of the cool, uh, um, throw it in
S2: the garage, go hit it. You know, basic 20 minute
S2: arm wrap, many rounds is possible. Um, and we like
S2: to start off with our push up drags. So literally, your, uh,
S2: say you're going to plant your bag to the right
S2: side of you, you're going to do a push up
S2: on the up. You're going to reach through with your
S2: left arm, drag that bag all the way through and across.
S2: So you're actually, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Right back down,
S2: back through. Right. So we got ten push up drags.
S2: Then we're going to get up. We're going to do
S2: ten shoulder slams which is really a a cool engagement
S2: in the body right. So I got to pick this
S2: bag up up onto the shoulder. And then just full
S2: power for slam to the ground and just let it
S2: rip back up and slam to the ground.
S1: So rather than like an like an overhead med ball slam,
S1: you're just going to the shoulder then slamming.
S2: Yep, yep. Up to the shoulder. You know and then
S2: using a full. So uh, you know for me like
S2: I'll rotate I'll do one one on the shoulder. So
S2: come up to the shoulder, kind of anchor in for
S2: a second. Power up, move down, align force, drive all
S2: the way through and just slam right to the ground
S2: just with full energy. Um, then, you know, pop that
S2: thing up, do ten shoulders, the shoulders, which is really
S2: developing that entire system. So literally it goes from grabbing
S2: the bag. Gotta manage it. Got to figure out where
S2: I want to hold it up. Full extension overhead. Back
S2: to the other shoulder up, full extension over the head,
S2: back to the other. And then we and then we
S2: close that out with probably, uh, you know, ten jump
S2: squats with the bag, which is a humbling experience. Um,
S2: you know, for the jump.
S1: Squats, you have the bag, uh, like a backpack, kind.
S2: Of backtrack. Okay. Just backtrack. Uh, you can do I mean,
S2: we do have front rack jump squats, so you kind
S2: of can modify it up. Yeah, it's a great thing
S2: about it. And, you know, this is what, you know,
S2: we're in the process of refining gear right now. That's
S2: kind of been our primary effort is how do we
S2: refine what we have and make it more functional, etc..
S2: So the small bag, which will now be called the Scout, um,
S2: that's going to become a recommended 20 to £50 sandbag,
S2: the mid tier, which is the athlete. Uh, that'll sit
S2: probably about 30 to almost £80 when we're done with it.
S2: Then the strongman, the big one, uh, the Georgia State Police,
S2: you know, more more police academies, fire academies use these things.
S2: They've got a couple of them and they call them
S2: the bag of. Whoa. Um, you know, that thing goes
S2: from about 75 to 140, uh, which is gnarly. I mean, yeah, gnarly.
S1: Yeah. Okay. So that's that's kind of like a garage,
S1: gym and rap style workout. Um, I love to. I
S1: love to talk workout. So I'm going to throw a
S1: more endurance style workout at you and then, uh, maybe
S1: come back at me with one of your, one of
S1: your favorite endurance workouts using this stuff. Sure. So there's
S1: a guy named, uh, Brian Johnson, uh, the Liver King.
S1: I'm having him on my podcast soon. He has a
S1: workout called The Barbarian in which you you hold two kettlebells,
S1: you know, one in each hand, uh, and then weighted vest, sled,
S1: ankle weights, and you just do a drag for a
S1: mile holding the kettlebells, you know, kind of kind of
S1: a brutal farmer's walk with a whole bunch of extras
S1: added in. And then my my, uh, my Ben cares
S1: about his joints and his 40 years old now, and, and, uh, and,
S1: you know, maybe wants to go a little bit easier.
S1: Is this new one I've been doing where I've got these, uh,
S1: £4 hand weights that just, like, strapped to each hand
S1: and then weighted vest and resisted breath training device, meaning,
S1: like I use one called the relaxer. And I've got
S1: a mile out mile back course where I hold the
S1: hand weights. You pump those vigorously the whole time you
S1: got the weighted vest on. It's all nasal breathing with
S1: resisted exhales. And your only goal is to go two
S1: miles without taking that breathwork device out of your mouth
S1: while pumping the arms the entire time. And that, like,
S1: that one's surprisingly tough, but all you need is a
S1: weight weighted vest, £4 hand weights, and this little breath
S1: training device called relaxation. You know, I'm always just sitting
S1: around coming up with with dinky fun little workouts like this. But, uh,
S1: for you, from an endurance standpoint, what would be an
S1: example of how you'd use some of your guys's equipment
S1: for something a little bit more endurance based?
S2: Yeah. I mean, so, you know, weighted vest is always great, right?
S2: When you can just add a little more to it,
S2: add it to a run or do like a burden run, uh,
S2: with the sandbag, you know, any of that stuff. I mean,
S2: some of the things that we are trying to develop
S2: our people around is understanding the various models, understanding how
S2: to slow certain things down to actually, you know, operating
S2: a little bit lower zone and, and function, you know,
S2: speed is not always the the right thing to be doing. Right?
S2: I don't need to rush through this workout right and
S2: be distinctive. So we have been adding in a lot
S2: of breathwork, uh, to the challenges to the workouts that
S2: we're putting out. So whether that's box breathing or whether
S2: that's nasal breathing, adding a lot of that function in,
S2: because the value of that is it naturally causes somebody
S2: to think about what they're doing. And really concentrate on
S2: managing breath under load and under work. Um, but, you know,
S2: we've done, uh, a variety of things. I mean, I
S2: think a lot of what we, you know, we took
S2: over when we acquired the company was more kind of garage, gym,
S2: blow it out, you know, like the whole CrossFit style work, right?
S2: Go out and crush it. So, you know, we've just onboarded, um,
S2: really a phenomenal coach here who's redesigning everything. They run
S2: a gym dance program at the gym where they do,
S2: you know, very much, um, uh, you know, kind of
S2: zone two work. Um, you know, he made we just
S2: interviewed him the other day, made a great sign, like,
S2: if you're if you're trying to build that endurance level,
S2: you know, you should be able to clearly communicate. I'm okay.
S2: I feel fine without taking a breath. Right. So we're
S2: actually looking at how we begin to do that in,
S2: in more limited space because a lot of our people
S2: are garage gym people, our home based people. And so,
S2: you know, and this time of year, it's like they're
S2: not going to get out in the snow and go
S2: run or go cows don't go do those things. Um, so,
S2: you know, a lot of the efforts are slowing down,
S2: focusing on breathing, uh, and doing movements like, you know,
S2: bear crawl drags, for instance, which is gnarly. You have.
S2: I don't know if you've gotten your kids doing those yet.
S2: Make them do that when they're, you know.
S1: Shooting bear crawls with a sled.
S2: So now what you're doing is you're doing bear crawls,
S2: and it's kind of like the push up drag. So
S2: back between my legs, uh, hand forward, drag the back
S2: all the way forward past my head, then bear crawl
S2: up left arm move, bear crawl up. And so I'm
S2: dragging that back forward as I'm bear crawling.
S1: But the big is is between the legs.
S2: So think about it. Right. I'm getting.
S1: Oh, wait, you're not, you're not, you're not holding it
S1: between your legs. You mean it's like under your body
S1: and basically you're doing a essentially it's like pulling it forward. Yeah.
S1: So it's like bear crawl from point A to point B,
S1: but that bag has got to stay with you the
S1: whole time. Right underneath you. The whole. Yeah. Okay. So
S1: it's basically like a drag. Yeah.
S2: Right. So if we slow that down and then we add,
S2: you know nasal breathing to that. Right. One body position,
S2: body position head down becomes radically difficult. I'm going to
S2: have to slow down my movement. I'm going to have
S2: to get more distinct. I'm going to have to moderate
S2: myself to stay in a lower zone, rather than trying
S2: to just speed through the workout, um, and, and really
S2: functioning on those things. So, you know, we've been looking
S2: at and exploring a variety of ways to step that up.
S2: That hasn't been something, you know, we acquired the company
S2: at the mid 2021, early 2021. Um, that's just something
S2: that hadn't been fully nested per se. And yeah, really
S2: understanding the value of that level of work load on
S2: the system and then continually exploring the gear and equipment
S2: in the most effective ways to to really achieve that.
S1: So my 13 year old sons are gonna hate you
S1: after this podcast because I, I write out their workouts
S1: every week. I I've been taking notes next. Next week's
S1: workouts are all going to be some bear crawl drags
S1: and some some sandbag work.
S2: And oh man, we did. Mike and I did a, uh,
S2: thruster ladder the other day, just straight across their ladder
S2: with the sandbag, uh, with, you know, 1 to 1 ratio. So, uh,
S2: one thruster, one nasal breath, two thrusters, two nasal breaths. Um,
S2: and you could breathe in open mouth any way you
S2: wanted to during work, but you had to be nasal
S2: breath on recovery.
S1: I like it. And and, uh, by the way, if
S1: you have any key workouts that you want to send over, uh, like,
S1: if you send them or if you have like a
S1: little PDF or anything like that, I'll totally put it
S1: in the show notes for people to download. If you
S1: go to to Ben Greenfield fitness.com/brute force podcast. And I'll
S1: also include uh, I think you guys are giving us
S1: like a discount code to some of the, some of
S1: the sandbags and equipment. I'll, I'll toss that in there
S1: as well. I don't, I don't know, off the top
S1: of my head, but I'll put it in there. Uh, obviously. Um, fuel.
S1: You know, what's in the gas tank is a big
S1: part of this. I'm just curious. Um, are you just like,
S1: a full on, like, Mr. Cheeseburger, uh, guy, or do
S1: you have any specific nutrition protocols or specific diet that
S1: you use in the in your training or the or
S1: the training protocols you recommend?
S2: Yeah. You know, I mean, it's interesting you, uh, I
S2: didn't grow up in a healthy environment. I actually grew
S2: up in the antithesis of that and, you know, wasn't
S2: wasn't really guided well in health and fitness growing up.
S2: So it's always kind of been the the struggle for me. And,
S2: you know, now having kicked into my 40s, um, really
S2: starting to pay attention to what my body says, what's
S2: going on, what I need to do, the things I
S2: need to really take on to because I want to
S2: be a guy at 80 that you look at and
S2: you're like, dude, that guy's 80. Um, you know, that's
S2: important to me. I want to be functional and capable
S2: all the way through the end, um, for as much
S2: as I can. And so for me, I've made some
S2: mods recently, you know, I've been using the kitchen stuff
S2: for a while now. Um, uh, which I know you're
S2: a big fan of. Clearly. Yeah, I'm a.
S1: Little biased, but I. I'm a fan based on supplements.
S2: Yeah. Well, you know, and. Yeah. And so, you know,
S2: my my protein. I had to shift a little while ago. Um,
S2: yours is better than most. Uh, was better than most
S2: on the market. However, uh, I moved into a full
S2: plant based off of. I moved up to almost, I
S2: would say 90% plant based diet, um, just last year.
S2: Just really getting in touch with my body and how
S2: food was affecting it. Mhm. Um, I just I've kind
S2: of it's felt better in the system. Honestly.
S1: You still doing all right with protein though. Are you
S1: finding that you can get protein without producing, you know
S1: gut upset from excess plant intake.
S2: Yeah. Yeah I mean it's actually it's a you know,
S2: and this is a big thing to me like individualized stuff.
S2: Like it has it has really shifted a lot for me. Um,
S2: and you know, and I'm a big, hey, you know,
S2: eat steak, do the ribs like, you know, I mean,
S2: that's the, you know, I was always that way. And
S2: it's just been one of these things. It has been
S2: inching in over this last year especially, uh, and so
S2: I'm just playing with it now. Right? I'm just I'm,
S2: you know, it's probably been 4 or 5 months of
S2: real solid consistency around it. Uh, I'm feeling much better.
S2: My energy levels are up. I feel like my body's
S2: in more of alignment, my guts flow and better. Um,
S2: but at the same time, I'll just pay attention to
S2: my body. And if it doesn't seem to work for me,
S2: then we'll shift, you know, forward to what needs to
S2: be done.
S1: Well, definitely. Uh, definitely stay on the key on creatine,
S1: at least. Yeah. Because you're you're gonna need that in
S1: the space.
S2: Well, I'm still using the colostrum. Right. That's why I
S2: say I'm, you know, about 90% or so. I still
S2: drop that into my shake in the morning. Good. Uh,
S2: still on the creatine. Doing the aminos?
S1: Yeah. I was gonna say the aminos for a plant
S1: based diet like that. That's what saves the meat. So
S1: many of my vegan clients ask for for protein. Because
S1: it's like lazy man's protein. Just do a few steps.
S1: You're good.
S2: Yeah. I mean, the stacks in, I come in in
S2: the morning, I start my coffee while my coffee start,
S2: and I put my shake together, you know, open the cabinet.
S2: If you open my cabinets, all key on stuff sans
S2: the protein. Yeah. Powder. Yeah. You know, but but that's
S2: the stack. And that's my morning routine. That's what I
S2: go through. And and it has more than, you know.
S2: And I've played and tested supplements over time of what
S2: works for me. I will say more than any other one,
S2: I can actually I feel connected to the results. Yeah,
S2: you know what I mean. That's what. That's what I've noticed.
S1: Wait. For which one?
S2: Uh, well, just for kind of the spectrum. Right. Adding
S2: the right.
S1: Adding, adding.
S2: Yep. Just stacking them in, just putting them in place,
S2: following that protocol and and just being consistent around it. Uh,
S2: I've definitely just it's like, oh, okay. Like whatever I'm
S2: doing in conjunction here seems to be working really well.
S1: Yeah. I mean that's, that's my go to as well.
S1: Like I've, I've got my colostrum creatine, fish oil in
S1: the morning along with, with the uh the whey protein
S1: isolate if I am going to do a smoothie. And
S1: then I basically got my immune if something's going, I
S1: don't take the immune every day. I just take it
S1: like on, on, you know, days where there's something going
S1: through the house and then the, uh, the flex, I do,
S1: I kind of overdo the flex. I do six of
S1: the flex on an empty stomach before I go to bed. Okay.
S1: For soreness. That's for gonna. I'm probably gonna need to
S1: upgrade it after I, uh, wind up doing these workouts
S1: we're talking about, but. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's so easy. So. Yeah,
S1: I mean, that's honestly, I'll quit toot my own horn
S1: here in a second, but that's like my whole goal
S1: with the company was I just wanted stuff that would
S1: allow you to pretty much have it all covered with
S1: one brand and have it be, um, let me put
S1: it this way. We're kind of a budget brand. Like,
S1: it's not super expensive, fancy, you know, fringe, you know,
S1: from some, you know, corner of the Amazon harvested by
S1: a one arm monk stuff. It's just human clinical, research
S1: based stuff that that tastes good and works. So. Yeah.
S2: Well, and and it's like I will say outside of
S2: the supplements, doctor coffee's amazing. Like, I'm a big, you know,
S2: black coffee couple, you know, two, two cups in the morning. Yeah.
S2: I transitioned to it. And, uh, that, that medium roast like,
S2: it is just I'm, I'm a, uh, a black coffee shop.
S2: I don't put anything in my coffee ever.
S1: I haven't, I haven't had the coffee in like a
S1: week because I'm experimenting right now with, with, uh, kratom.
S1: So I've been doing a little bit of kratom and
S1: it does not blend well with coffee, so I'm, I'm
S1: missing my coffee, but I'll, I'll return soon, I think.
S2: Yeah. And it's great. I mean, that's out of, out
S2: of everything that's out there. Uh, I've, I've really enjoyed it.
S2: It's been. Yeah. It's been fantastic. Yeah.
S1: Well well look like for me the, the big message
S1: I'm getting here is, um, let, let's say that, that
S1: I want to make myself more gritty and resilient both
S1: mentally and physically. Like typical morning. What it could look like,
S1: for example, is get up. And, you know, once you've
S1: taken care of and I, I highly emphasize this your
S1: spiritual fitness like, take care of it. Um, you know,
S1: Bible reading, prayer, meditation, devotions always care for that. First,
S1: I cannot overemphasize the quality that that's brought into my life. Uh,
S1: and then like morning, for example, heat stress, cold stress
S1: and breath stress, right? I really like that kind of
S1: stuff in the morning versus getting after the the heavy
S1: stuff right off the bat in the morning when I
S1: think you're a little bit more susceptible to injury. And
S1: I just think that that other stuff fits better in
S1: the morning. If you have the luxury of time to
S1: do A2A day and then afternoon, you could do something
S1: like anchoring into the present moment breathwork, warm up, get
S1: your unstable loads and try to do nasal breathing through.
S1: Route and stay present while you're doing some of these
S1: moves that we talked about. Maybe finish with some recovery
S1: breathwork and a quick dip into an ice tub for
S1: increased resilience. I mean, something like that. I mean, you
S1: could do that with with your kids. I mean, that's
S1: similar to what I've done with my son since they
S1: were five years old, and I've been able to witness
S1: in a young human being when you start young, I mean,
S1: like their ability to be able to function in high
S1: stress environments, I think is good. And for me personally,
S1: my ability to be able to function when, um, you know,
S1: standing in line of the airport and they announced that
S1: the flight's delayed for hours, or, you know, when I
S1: open up my emails and, you know, and I think
S1: I'm done with work and all of a sudden there's
S1: like 30 emails, you know, scenarios like that. I think
S1: those type of routines help to build that grit and
S1: resilience which which ultimately, I mean, if we step back
S1: and look at things, big picture, our goal in life
S1: is to love others most with whatever unique skill set
S1: we've been given in life. And if we're freaking out
S1: and flopping around like a muppet every single time shit
S1: goes south, that's not going to happen. But I mean,
S1: if you can be that that present, zen, fully mindful,
S1: anchored person who also is able to withstand rigors of hypoxia,
S1: rigors of cold, rigors of heat, and rigors of unstable objects,
S1: I just think, like you're you're going to operate as
S1: a more impactful human being, and especially in the times
S1: that we're living in right now, a human being who
S1: can react to unpredictable scenarios pretty rapidly without, you know,
S1: as we were talking about early in the podcast, these
S1: disturbing shifts in heart rate variability or central nervous system adaptation.
S2: Yeah, I mean, I think that's really it. Like I,
S2: I always say like three, three different qualities that separate
S2: the top 1% from the top 10%. Right? So the
S2: top tier, their abilities. Right. They have actually taken on
S2: and developed a core set of abilities and fundamentals that
S2: they know work and, and work for them in what
S2: they want to accomplish, to their willingness to actually put
S2: themselves up there, serve themselves up, take it on, and
S2: the discipline to stay in in the work. Right. And
S2: that those things, you see, those things exist. You begin
S2: to take those things on. I live in dynamic calendar. I,
S2: you know, integrate I integrate my breathing process all day,
S2: every day. Now when I tell people to start. So
S2: just put it in the calendar three or 3 to
S2: 5 times a day for like three minutes. That's it.
S2: Just give me give me three minutes, five times a
S2: day of rhythmic breathing for the next two weeks. Yeah,
S2: I'm asking for it. Right? Yep. Um, you know, because
S2: sometimes the stack gets too big for some people. So
S2: how do we bring that down? Yeah, I mean, just
S2: just give yourself that grace for the day and give yourself,
S2: you know, even three, three minute segments, five minute segments.
S2: That's it doesn't take much. The body will start to realign.
S2: And your point about the kids, I agree with you.
S2: I'm watching it with my son. You know, I went
S2: back after after two girls and 12 years later did
S2: it again. Got a four year old. Now um, and
S2: I watch it in him. Those are the same traits
S2: that I want him to remain as much in the
S2: Natural Breathwork central nervous system regulation as possible, because that
S2: is the key fundamental that he's going to grow up
S2: with and carry out into the world and be able
S2: to then navigate all the garbage that's going to show up.
S1: Yep. Yeah. And that, that, that, my friends, is how
S1: to make yourself physically and mentally more gritty, resilient and
S1: harder to kill with Jeff Diamond, a brute force. Hey,
S1: I'm gonna I'm gonna link to all your stuff. And
S1: for sure, if you send over any workouts, I'll put
S1: those in the show notes as well. We'll put, uh,
S1: we'll put some of our, our discount codes for any
S1: of the garage gym, unstable load type of stuff from
S1: brute force. Uh, the same stuff that's littered around my
S1: entire garage. Now, in the show notes, if you go
S1: to Ben Greenfield fitness.com/brute force podcast. Remember, folks, get out there,
S1: get cold, get hot, challenge your breath, lift unstable, unpredictable loads,
S1: and stay physically and mentally gritty. Thanks for coming on
S1: the show, Jeff.
S2: Thanks for having me, Ben. Really appreciate.
S1: It. All right folks, I'm Ben Greenfield along with Jeff
S1: Bannon from Brute Force signing out from Ben Greenfield fitness.com.
S1: Have an amazing week. In compliance with the FTC guidelines,
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