WEBVTT - S1 E5: The case for giving your kids more freedom online 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:07.170 Hi, my name is Scarlett Ashbury. I'm 14. I like 0:00:07.170 --> 0:00:09.910 to talk to people. I like to role play. I 0:00:09.910 --> 0:00:13.660 like to look at fan art of things that I like. 0:00:14.550 --> 0:00:15.760 I like to watch Youtube. 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:16.459 My 0:00:16.460 --> 0:00:19.280 name is Helena Ashbury when she asks for an app. 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:21.860 I think I drive her nuts particularly when she was younger. 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:24.450 You know that I'll go off and research and you 0:00:24.450 --> 0:00:25.979 got to the point of where I'd say, well I'll 0:00:25.980 --> 0:00:27.900 have a look at it and she'll go, you'll just 0:00:27.900 --> 0:00:30.639 look until you find something that says that it's dangerous 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:32.530 and then you'll tell me you can't have it. 0:00:32.540 --> 0:00:34.790 She always looks at parent reviews. 0:00:35.140 --> 0:00:37.269 Don't do that. If you're looking at the parent reviews 0:00:37.270 --> 0:00:38.780 that are gonna be talking about, oh my child is 0:00:38.780 --> 0:00:40.620 addicted to the stop. Oh my child been talking to 0:00:40.620 --> 0:00:41.529 this old guys like 0:00:42.140 --> 0:00:44.589 you're looking for bad reviews, you're gonna find them. 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:46.740 Hi Taylor. 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:50.750 Today I'm going to tell you about a parent named Helena. 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:52.760 She's an engineer 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:57.200 and she describes herself as having a decent grasp on tech. 0:00:57.210 --> 0:00:59.600 But she still feels like when it comes to newer 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:01.900 media there's stuff she just doesn't get. 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:04.690 I grew up without any of this. You know, I 0:01:04.690 --> 0:01:07.360 mean Atari came out when I was a kid 0:01:07.740 --> 0:01:11.170 and I entered the online world when I was probably 0:01:11.170 --> 0:01:11.760 about 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:16.050 21, and it was the dial up modem and all 0:01:16.050 --> 0:01:18.190 that kind of thing and the Internet was cool. 0:01:18.470 --> 0:01:21.200 Taylor. Do you remember when the internet was cool. It 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:21.910 still is 0:01:22.340 --> 0:01:25.250 good answer. Good answer. 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:29.330 Helena has a 14 year old daughter. Scarlett and Scarlett 0:01:29.330 --> 0:01:31.380 has spent a lot of time trying to educate her 0:01:31.380 --> 0:01:34.160 parents about what she's doing online. 0:01:34.540 --> 0:01:37.340 They do not understand instagram at all. Like they know 0:01:37.340 --> 0:01:39.110 what it's for, they just don't know how to use 0:01:39.110 --> 0:01:39.360 it 0:01:39.740 --> 0:01:44.900 at all. You look annoyed because it's so easy, 0:01:45.940 --> 0:01:49.380 it's not even that hard. Have you tried to teach them? 0:01:49.990 --> 0:01:52.180 My mom was like, oh well I keep seeing these 0:01:52.180 --> 0:01:54.380 people dancing on my screen. This this is not what 0:01:54.380 --> 0:01:56.070 I'm not, I don't follow them and like 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:00.290 your urine reels, that's not nobody watches reels, what are 0:02:00.290 --> 0:02:01.520 you doing? She goes, well, I thought that was the 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:05.330 home button. There is literally a house button, It's a 0:02:05.340 --> 0:02:06.120 house 0:02:06.540 --> 0:02:09.869 press the house to get to your home screen, It 0:02:09.870 --> 0:02:10.860 just makes sense. 0:02:13.340 --> 0:02:15.560 Have you had moments like this with your son? 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.210 Oh, absolutely. Some of the tools he uses what we 0:02:19.210 --> 0:02:21.560 do as you know. Yes. 0:02:22.139 --> 0:02:26.959 Is he a kind teacher? No, no, he's very impatient. 0:02:27.340 --> 0:02:28.520 So it's a trend. Then 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:33.320 today's story hinges on this fact that many parents just 0:02:33.330 --> 0:02:36.320 do not understand the world their kids live in and 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:39.889 some of the fears and tensions that come out of that. 0:02:39.900 --> 0:02:43.900 I'm taylor Owen an academic who studies technology and who 0:02:43.900 --> 0:02:46.890 is desperately trying to keep up with a very online 0:02:46.889 --> 0:02:50.669 eight year old Nicole Edwards, A journalist whose parents are 0:02:50.669 --> 0:02:56.660 remarkably tech savvy. This is screen time. 0:02:57.139 --> 0:03:01.860 There are huge questions playing out right now over the 0:03:01.860 --> 0:03:06.630 place of technology in our lives. Facebook was scheming to 0:03:06.630 --> 0:03:12.200 bring even younger users into their field. You're basically giving 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:15.310 out your personal I. D. Two games so they can 0:03:15.310 --> 0:03:16.460 make money for it. 0:03:16.730 --> 0:03:19.000 There are some people that I would like to block 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:19.760 in real life, 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:23.929 we could work together. But it will add the third 0:03:23.930 --> 0:03:28.680 tensions because in the app market their job is to sell, sell, sell. 0:03:30.500 --> 0:03:33.210 They're like I just don't understand this is their platform, 0:03:33.210 --> 0:03:34.450 this is their life 0:03:34.940 --> 0:03:36.050 where's the limit? 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:37.050 Mhm. 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:40.580 Every parent is struggling with these questions, governments around the 0:03:40.580 --> 0:03:43.020 world are trying to keep up and the scale and 0:03:43.020 --> 0:03:46.460 pace of change is only increasing. In this show. We'll 0:03:46.460 --> 0:03:48.880 talk to parents and kids about how they navigate the 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:52.570 digital world and to the researchers and policy makers who 0:03:52.570 --> 0:03:54.650 can help us understand the consequences. 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.510 Helena had a story that I think illustrates how a 0:04:03.510 --> 0:04:06.050 lot of parents feel about their Children navigating the internet. 0:04:06.540 --> 0:04:12.140 My daughter asked for a Fitbit probably about three years 0:04:12.140 --> 0:04:15.420 ago now and she was a Tween and already as 0:04:15.420 --> 0:04:17.760 a parent worrying about her being on the device is 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:20.710 too much and not getting enough exercise. So it seemed 0:04:20.710 --> 0:04:23.160 like a great idea to me, so 0:04:23.410 --> 0:04:26.580 totally embraced the idea and she got a Fitbit and 0:04:26.580 --> 0:04:27.130 I guess it 0:04:27.940 --> 0:04:32.520 it was probably two or three months later and for 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:35.830 some reason I came across on her phone that she 0:04:35.830 --> 0:04:41.710 was getting messages through the social media side of Fitbit, 0:04:41.710 --> 0:04:43.960 which I had not realized 0:04:44.140 --> 0:04:46.469 really. It hadn't sort of clued in with me that 0:04:46.470 --> 0:04:48.460 there was a social media side to it. 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:52.500 And my daughter was getting messages from men I guess 0:04:52.500 --> 0:04:55.670 men or boys on on the app that could be 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.950 you know, as outright as will you be my girlfriend, 0:04:58.990 --> 0:05:03.160 Which just totally stunned me, you know, And we sort 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:05.610 of laughed a little bit about it. Like what are 0:05:05.610 --> 0:05:10.260 they really expecting they really expecting you to say? Yeah, okay. 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:16.000 I had no idea. You could message someone on a Fitbit. 0:05:16.010 --> 0:05:19.630 Did you know that? I didn't, I didn't. There's a 0:05:19.630 --> 0:05:22.300 legal academic named Evelyn do eric who likes to say 0:05:22.300 --> 0:05:26.469 that everything is a content moderation problem with technology right now. 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:29.710 And I think as all these different tools we use, 0:05:29.710 --> 0:05:32.460 whether it be like a peloton or a Fitbit, 0:05:32.740 --> 0:05:36.029 all of these platforms are trying to become social 0:05:36.140 --> 0:05:39.120 and the second you try and become social, you have 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.619 to deal with bad content and how you're going to 0:05:41.620 --> 0:05:44.860 decide what can and can't be said. And it's no 0:05:44.860 --> 0:05:50.150 longer just instagram and facebook are exercise bikes and our 0:05:50.150 --> 0:05:56.059 cars and anything that creates a connected environment. Absolutely. 0:05:56.140 --> 0:05:58.849 And to be clear, I'm not sharing this story to 0:05:58.850 --> 0:06:01.779 alert parents to the danger of fitbits or anything like that, 0:06:01.790 --> 0:06:04.210 you know, thankfully nothing happened. Scarlett is fine, 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:05.960 but Helena's story, 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:07.880 I guess that a key thing that came up a 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:10.660 lot when I spoke to parents about online safety, which 0:06:10.660 --> 0:06:15.100 is this concern that there's a hidden threat lurking somewhere 0:06:15.100 --> 0:06:15.950 on the internet. 0:06:16.339 --> 0:06:18.890 Here's Helena thinking that she's letting her kid have something 0:06:18.890 --> 0:06:21.080 that's pretty benign, only to find out that there are 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:23.260 strangers on it who are propositioning her child. 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:25.750 Yeah, and I think it sort of gets it to 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:28.320 kind of really critical things here. It's like one we, 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:32.640 as parents don't always know sufficiently how technologies are kids 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:35.040 are using are used and what the potential is, right? 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.839 So not knowing even the fit, but had a social 0:06:37.850 --> 0:06:39.560 interaction aspect to it. 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:41.930 But the second is just how to measure harm. Part 0:06:41.930 --> 0:06:43.919 of the challenge we face in this debate about online 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:45.960 security and kids is that 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:49.760 we conflate all sorts of different kinds of harm. So, 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:54.210 child exploitative content and sex trafficking on one end of 0:06:54.210 --> 0:06:58.280 these really acute horrible things that happen online and that 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.779 we feel like this visceral need to protect obviously our 0:07:01.779 --> 0:07:04.820 kids in our society from and will go to great 0:07:04.820 --> 0:07:07.580 lengths to do that. But then there's just all these 0:07:07.589 --> 0:07:10.850 other harms that teenagers face in this world 0:07:10.940 --> 0:07:16.940 online, of the propositioning the cyberbullying the trolling, the kind 0:07:16.940 --> 0:07:20.790 of gross behavior that exists disproportionate to it doesn't in 0:07:20.790 --> 0:07:23.600 the physical world and that might require a different kind 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:27.710 of response. So, assessing harm and risk is really difficult 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:29.690 at any time, but I think it's really hard for 0:07:29.690 --> 0:07:30.350 parents 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:34.040 in this environment, where they don't know always what's going on. 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:36.060 They don't know how these tools are being used 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.260 and they don't know if their kids are subjective to 0:07:39.260 --> 0:07:43.270 these acute or more sort of systemic harms and how 0:07:43.270 --> 0:07:47.340 they should respond accordingly, right? And Helena's strategy here. And 0:07:47.340 --> 0:07:49.960 the reason that she even found out about these messages 0:07:50.340 --> 0:07:52.160 is that she checks Scarlett's phone 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:55.450 um which is something she does periodically, both of them 0:07:55.450 --> 0:07:58.270 are aware. And when Helena brought up what she found 0:07:58.270 --> 0:08:00.250 to Scarlett, it didn't go well, 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.260 I think she felt she'd done something wrong. And I 0:08:05.260 --> 0:08:09.960 think because I did freak out because it was totally unexpected. 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:12.370 So she was very upset and I got upset me. 0:08:12.370 --> 0:08:14.550 And these things just sort of escalate. 0:08:14.940 --> 0:08:16.440 I think it was a bit of a shock to 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:17.040 both of us. 0:08:17.510 --> 0:08:20.060 Scarlett didn't want to talk to me about the Fitbit thing. 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:23.240 But she did talk about her parents monitoring her internet, 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:26.820 use her parents do have these rules, like not to 0:08:26.820 --> 0:08:29.920 give her information out to strangers. For example. And one 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:31.800 of the things her mom said is that they keep 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:34.850 her computer in a common area so they can casually 0:08:34.850 --> 0:08:36.360 glance at it when they want to. 0:08:39.740 --> 0:08:44.329 She mentioned that sometimes she looks over your shoulder when 0:08:44.330 --> 0:08:45.460 you're on your laptop, 0:08:46.140 --> 0:08:48.260 how do you feel about that? 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:50.820 It's 0:08:52.740 --> 0:08:54.920 it makes me feel like I'm doing something wrong, even 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:55.650 if I'm not 0:08:56.140 --> 0:08:57.969 like I could just be chatting with my friend just 0:08:57.970 --> 0:09:00.740 talking about normal things that I could talk with with 0:09:00.740 --> 0:09:01.450 my mom 0:09:01.940 --> 0:09:03.760 and she hovers over my shoulder, I just go, 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:05.309 what did I do? 0:09:06.140 --> 0:09:08.520 It's worse when my dad doesn't know because he breathes 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:11.610 into my ear and just stands there and stares. My 0:09:11.610 --> 0:09:14.900 mom just walks past. My dad is just standing there 0:09:14.900 --> 0:09:15.260 like 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:20.840 with with with bug eyes. Yeah, I looked into his 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.810 face and he's just judging me and I'm like what? 0:09:23.820 --> 0:09:26.260 I don't understand why, 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:29.290 No. And then he'll ask a dumb question like, oh 0:09:29.290 --> 0:09:31.160 why is she wearing that shirt? I don't know 0:09:31.540 --> 0:09:33.720 why shouldn't she wear that shirt? Do you have a 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:36.600 problem with the fact that her shirt slightly is like 0:09:37.390 --> 0:09:38.760 slightly 0:09:40.340 --> 0:09:45.050 revealing? Is that a problem? Can you just go away? 0:09:45.050 --> 0:09:46.660 I'm trying to watch you to leave. 0:09:48.540 --> 0:09:51.100 And this all brings us to this big worry that 0:09:51.100 --> 0:09:53.210 I hear over and over from parents 0:09:53.460 --> 0:09:57.920 probably she's the first generation that's grown up with it, 0:09:57.929 --> 0:10:00.750 always being in existence. Like there's never been a world 0:10:00.750 --> 0:10:05.550 without the internet for her, without iphones, without all these devices. 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:07.930 I've got no frame of reference for it and we're 0:10:07.929 --> 0:10:10.390 all making it up as we go along and it's 0:10:10.390 --> 0:10:13.250 so difficult and we're probably getting it wrong? 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:17.670 What can you do? I wonder am I being too strict, 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:17.959 but 0:10:19.330 --> 0:10:21.360 you know, is it really gonna work? Am I really 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:22.290 gonna protect her? 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:25.960 So there are two parts to this question on the 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:28.490 one hand, is my kids safe in these spaces that 0:10:28.490 --> 0:10:29.660 I have no reference for. 0:10:30.140 --> 0:10:33.500 And on the other hand, am I worrying too much? 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:35.860 Like at what point do parents just let go? 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:40.140 Those are questions parents are clearly struggling with and need 0:10:40.140 --> 0:10:44.260 to ask themselves, but they're not the only players here. 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:48.099 Tech companies are also evolving their own tools for what 0:10:48.100 --> 0:10:51.170 they allow and don't allow. Then governments as well are 0:10:51.170 --> 0:10:52.349 trying to decide 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:54.979 what rules they should put in place for the companies 0:10:54.980 --> 0:10:56.550 and the tools they design 0:10:56.940 --> 0:10:59.689 and for kids of varying ages and how they engage 0:10:59.690 --> 0:11:00.620 in those spaces. 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:08.880 The first person I wanted to speak to about this 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:10.350 was Sonia Livingstone 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:12.670 who is one of the world's leading experts when it 0:11:12.670 --> 0:11:14.359 comes to kids in technology. 0:11:14.370 --> 0:11:17.929 Okay, good. Alright. I'm pressing record on the phone. 0:11:18.030 --> 0:11:21.370 She teaches social Psychology at the London School of Economics 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.250 and directs the Digital Futures Commission. 0:11:24.740 --> 0:11:26.740 She is in many ways at the center of the 0:11:26.740 --> 0:11:30.410 kids in tech policy debate both in the UK and 0:11:30.420 --> 0:11:31.160 around the world 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:34.780 and as someone who lives in the UK, she had 0:11:34.780 --> 0:11:39.760 a really interesting perspective on how different societies view parenting. 0:11:40.140 --> 0:11:45.160 So my understanding is that in europe we have more 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:48.590 of an expectation that Children can have the independence to 0:11:48.590 --> 0:11:52.390 figure things out for themselves and in north America. You 0:11:52.390 --> 0:11:54.150 can tell me if I'm wrong about Canada 0:11:54.340 --> 0:11:56.550 there is more a sense that the parent kind of 0:11:56.550 --> 0:11:59.689 has the right to know everything that's happening to the child, 0:11:59.690 --> 0:12:01.060 including on the phone 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.470 until the child kind of passes a threshold or proves himself. 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:07.300 I mean, I guess I do have that kind of 0:12:07.300 --> 0:12:12.010 child rights focus that says Children can only really develop 0:12:12.020 --> 0:12:16.070 and gain their agency and autonomy by having the leeway 0:12:16.070 --> 0:12:19.470 to make some mistakes, not terrible mistakes. You know, we 0:12:19.470 --> 0:12:20.060 want some 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:22.510 kind of safeguards around it, but they've got to have 0:12:22.510 --> 0:12:23.600 some freedom to 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:26.440 stretch their legs as it were and that might mean 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:28.060 that they make some mistakes and then you want them 0:12:28.059 --> 0:12:29.360 to come to you and say, 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.400 hey, this happened and that was a problem. We don't 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:34.630 even know what it's like for a child to grow up, 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:38.240 always being watched and checked and kind of controlled. That's 0:12:38.460 --> 0:12:39.790 and what effect is that having 0:12:40.370 --> 0:12:43.940 that has its own effect. Yes, and parents watched anxiously 0:12:43.940 --> 0:12:45.760 and guiltily. And 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.939 so I see that these are really hard challenges for 0:12:48.940 --> 0:12:50.450 parents to manage. But 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:53.040 I think there has to be an element of standing 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:56.210 back and making sure you're the person that the child 0:12:56.210 --> 0:12:58.109 will tell if anything goes wrong. 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.360 How do you think parents should think through acceptable risk online? 0:13:02.940 --> 0:13:05.490 And is that the right construct to be thinking about 0:13:05.490 --> 0:13:09.439 this from just making small mistakes for kids which are 0:13:09.450 --> 0:13:12.150 part of growing up versus being exposed to 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:15.990 real potential harm here, which is sometimes the case. 0:13:16.540 --> 0:13:19.760 I used to say that the analogy was crossing roads 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.100 and walking down the street and so on, but actually 0:13:22.100 --> 0:13:25.490 parents have been making a different decision there too. So 0:13:25.660 --> 0:13:28.220 I think we all know that as Children, we were 0:13:28.220 --> 0:13:30.950 allowed to be able to kind of walk to the 0:13:30.950 --> 0:13:34.000 streets or to the shops or to the park unaccompanied 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:36.310 and now Children are much more accompanied. So 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.420 in a way the risk and the fear of getting 0:13:39.420 --> 0:13:43.060 it wrong has spread its online and it's offline. 0:13:43.340 --> 0:13:45.840 So, you know, I'm a social scientist, I believe in 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:49.120 the summer of statistics, there's no more road accidents. Two 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:52.620 kids now than 30 years ago. There's no more abductions 0:13:52.620 --> 0:13:55.980 by pedophiles now than they were 30 years ago. There 0:13:55.990 --> 0:14:00.950 is more exposure to online kind of risky content 0:14:01.340 --> 0:14:05.000 But there is not really more things going wrong in 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:08.100 children's lives now than there was 30 years ago. So 0:14:08.100 --> 0:14:11.420 I think parents, you know, if you can stand back 0:14:11.429 --> 0:14:14.330 and give the child a bit more leeway, the paradox 0:14:14.330 --> 0:14:17.860 is that you'll have a stronger and more resilient child. 0:14:17.870 --> 0:14:20.970 A lot of the worst risks. They're incredibly rare, just 0:14:20.970 --> 0:14:22.800 as you know, the chance of your child being knocked 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:24.050 down by a car on the way to the 0:14:24.140 --> 0:14:26.340 buy an ice cream is very rare and it is 0:14:26.340 --> 0:14:30.650 so beneficial that the child can make that journey by themselves. 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:33.650 Mhm, 0:14:35.830 --> 0:14:39.250 wow, interesting. Yeah, it's really hard to get a worldwide 0:14:39.250 --> 0:14:42.180 picture of this, but it's certainly true that if we're 0:14:42.180 --> 0:14:45.380 looking at Canada and the us both child abductions and 0:14:45.380 --> 0:14:48.380 road deaths are down. But what strikes me here is 0:14:48.380 --> 0:14:51.650 that so much of the public discourse around safety online 0:14:51.940 --> 0:14:55.120 revolves around these sorts of really acute harms that Sonja 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:56.160 is talking about. 0:14:56.740 --> 0:14:59.340 For example, you remember that Apple got into some controversy 0:14:59.340 --> 0:15:02.350 last summer when they introduced new measures to fight child 0:15:02.350 --> 0:15:06.160 sexual abuse material, which involved collecting some information directly from 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:07.600 the phones of their users. 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:10.630 This set off a huge debate about the balance between 0:15:10.630 --> 0:15:12.150 security and privacy, 0:15:12.540 --> 0:15:14.310 but I talked to someone who thinks this is the 0:15:14.310 --> 0:15:15.750 wrong debate to be having. 0:15:16.340 --> 0:15:19.650 This is Valerie Steeves, professor of criminology at the University 0:15:19.650 --> 0:15:21.050 of Ottawa, 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:25.590 sorry, I was watching the clock, watching the clock and 0:15:25.590 --> 0:15:27.790 then naturally I got tied up in something on my 0:15:27.790 --> 0:15:30.920 computer just when it was time to log in. No problem. 0:15:30.930 --> 0:15:32.770 That's so nice to meet you find that's lovely to 0:15:32.770 --> 0:15:35.250 meet you too. Valerie does a lot of research around 0:15:35.250 --> 0:15:38.820 human rights and technology. She also co leads the equality 0:15:38.820 --> 0:15:43.030 project where she talks to kids policymakers and experts about 0:15:43.030 --> 0:15:46.160 ways to promote privacy and equality online. 0:15:46.540 --> 0:15:49.480 She makes the argument that this entire discussion is a 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:53.760 distraction from the broader problems kids actually face online 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:56.340 and that in fact it's in the interests of tech 0:15:56.340 --> 0:15:59.250 companies for us to be focusing on these kinds of 0:15:59.250 --> 0:16:00.360 security issues. 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.420 One of the things that fascinates me that I don't 0:16:04.420 --> 0:16:07.250 think anybody really talks about very often outside of academic 0:16:07.250 --> 0:16:10.840 circles is the fact that companies made a very conscious 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:15.000 choice to stop talking about privacy and start talking about 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:15.960 security 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:20.160 company started saying your child is at risk of being 0:16:20.170 --> 0:16:24.220 attacked by a predator. Online company started saying you should 0:16:24.220 --> 0:16:26.990 be concerned your child could be talking to a stranger online. 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:30.540 I've collected data for years and all of the evidence 0:16:30.540 --> 0:16:33.450 indicates that when kids say they're talking to a stranger online, 0:16:33.660 --> 0:16:36.890 they almost always means someone in the context of their 0:16:36.890 --> 0:16:39.860 social network, their grandmother in Lebanon, that they've never met 0:16:39.860 --> 0:16:43.320 a person, their cousin's friend who also plays volleyball in 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:44.570 the town next door. 0:16:44.740 --> 0:16:46.970 Now, if you think about it from a company's point 0:16:46.970 --> 0:16:49.060 of view, this makes perfect sense because if you get 0:16:49.060 --> 0:16:50.210 parents afraid, 0:16:50.500 --> 0:16:54.730 then they will consent to their Children being placed under surveillance. 0:16:54.730 --> 0:16:58.290 And companies very conveniently come and say, don't worry, parents 0:16:58.300 --> 0:17:01.380 will watch your child. We've got this will take care 0:17:01.380 --> 0:17:02.260 of your kiddies. 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:06.960 And it legitimizes this constant collection of the minutia of 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:10.230 young people's lives. So I think when we talk about 0:17:10.300 --> 0:17:13.460 the harms that Children face, it's important to realize that 0:17:13.460 --> 0:17:17.070 this is a constructive dialogue, you're being told your kids 0:17:17.070 --> 0:17:18.770 are at risk of these harms because 0:17:19.140 --> 0:17:20.410 it makes somebody money. 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:24.340 Now in a previous lifetime, I was a criminal lawyer 0:17:24.670 --> 0:17:27.780 and I can tell you that from sex traffickers that 0:17:27.780 --> 0:17:30.889 I have talked to, that the Children who are vulnerable 0:17:30.890 --> 0:17:34.649 to that type of attack share a certain set of characteristics. 0:17:34.700 --> 0:17:36.680 One of them is not the mere fact that their 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:41.160 online Valerie says those characteristics include childhood trauma, 0:17:41.380 --> 0:17:44.129 a history of sexual abuse, low self esteem, 0:17:44.340 --> 0:17:47.280 running away from home and minimal social support. 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:51.000 In other words, if your child is vulnerable to that 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.400 and they go online, you should be really worried if 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:57.690 your child is not vulnerable to that and they go online, 0:17:58.140 --> 0:18:01.210 we haven't seen a case where that's worked out badly 0:18:01.210 --> 0:18:04.109 for you or your child. One of the markers and 0:18:04.109 --> 0:18:07.409 vulnerability is not the fact that your kid speaks to 0:18:07.410 --> 0:18:09.920 their friends on Tiktok. The real problems you should be 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:12.110 worried about is the fact that everything they say on 0:18:12.109 --> 0:18:15.370 Tiktok is grabbed by the platform and used for its 0:18:15.380 --> 0:18:16.420 own purposes, 0:18:16.540 --> 0:18:18.620 usually not for the child's well being. 0:18:18.740 --> 0:18:23.290 So the recent news about Facebook, you know, intentionally gathering 0:18:23.290 --> 0:18:26.020 data and using it against young people to give them 0:18:26.020 --> 0:18:28.879 a bad sense of self for a bad body image. Well, 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:32.490 that's good marketing. That's been around for 20 years. I mean, 0:18:32.490 --> 0:18:34.080 there's nothing new about this. 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:38.949 These corporations are purposely injecting a child's social environment with 0:18:38.950 --> 0:18:44.480 these highly stereotypical media ties images to manipulate them for 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:48.370 commercial purposes and to create sticky places where they get 0:18:48.369 --> 0:18:51.830 addicted and feel drawn to out of their own sense 0:18:51.830 --> 0:18:55.310 of insecurity because they drop more data about themselves when 0:18:55.310 --> 0:18:57.270 they're there. So it's a two pronged attack. 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:05.510 You mentioned Valerie steve speaks to kids to did she 0:19:05.510 --> 0:19:08.290 share any of their thoughts on this? Absolutely, she did. 0:19:08.290 --> 0:19:11.379 And essentially she says they've caught on to what's happening 0:19:11.390 --> 0:19:12.960 and they're starting to adapt. 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:17.240 Well, I've seen a real shift over time actually in 2001, 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:18.930 when we first started talking to kids, 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:24.150 they talked about companies as trustworthy online friends. Oh, it's 0:19:24.150 --> 0:19:26.090 a corporate side, it's got a dot com, I can 0:19:26.090 --> 0:19:30.070 trust that company by 2015 when you sit down with 0:19:30.070 --> 0:19:32.610 kids and talk to them about corporations on the internet, 0:19:32.609 --> 0:19:34.200 they call them creepy old men 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:37.030 that they are just trying to manipulate us, Have you 0:19:37.030 --> 0:19:39.690 ever read a privacy policy? It clearly wasn't written, so 0:19:39.690 --> 0:19:40.760 I could understand it, 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:43.479 you know, they're just trying to hoodwink me kids now 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:46.760 talk about technology as kind of a necessary evil in 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:48.740 my life. Yeah, I have a phone, I love talking 0:19:48.740 --> 0:19:52.340 to my friends, but I'm really careful what I do. 0:19:52.410 --> 0:19:54.960 In fact, in the last four years or so we 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:59.350 found kids are withdrawing from online interactions. They have a 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:01.670 fake online public persona 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.700