1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:07,170 Speaker 1: Hi, my name is Scarlett Ashbury. I'm 14. I like 2 00:00:07,170 --> 00:00:09,910 Speaker 1: to talk to people. I like to role play. I 3 00:00:09,910 --> 00:00:13,660 Speaker 1: like to look at fan art of things that I like. 4 00:00:14,550 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: I like to watch Youtube. 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:16,459 Speaker 1: My 6 00:00:16,460 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 2: name is Helena Ashbury when she asks for an app. 7 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:21,860 Speaker 2: I think I drive her nuts particularly when she was younger. 8 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,450 Speaker 2: You know that I'll go off and research and you 9 00:00:24,450 --> 00:00:25,979 Speaker 2: got to the point of where I'd say, well I'll 10 00:00:25,980 --> 00:00:27,900 Speaker 2: have a look at it and she'll go, you'll just 11 00:00:27,900 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 2: look until you find something that says that it's dangerous 12 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:32,530 Speaker 2: and then you'll tell me you can't have it. 13 00:00:32,540 --> 00:00:34,790 Speaker 1: She always looks at parent reviews. 14 00:00:35,140 --> 00:00:37,269 Speaker 1: Don't do that. If you're looking at the parent reviews 15 00:00:37,270 --> 00:00:38,780 Speaker 1: that are gonna be talking about, oh my child is 16 00:00:38,780 --> 00:00:40,620 Speaker 1: addicted to the stop. Oh my child been talking to 17 00:00:40,620 --> 00:00:41,529 Speaker 1: this old guys like 18 00:00:42,140 --> 00:00:44,589 Speaker 1: you're looking for bad reviews, you're gonna find them. 19 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:46,740 Speaker 1: Hi Taylor. 20 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,750 Speaker 1: Today I'm going to tell you about a parent named Helena. 21 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: She's an engineer 22 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: and she describes herself as having a decent grasp on tech. 23 00:00:57,210 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: But she still feels like when it comes to newer 24 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,900 Speaker 1: media there's stuff she just doesn't get. 25 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,690 Speaker 2: I grew up without any of this. You know, I 26 00:01:04,690 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 2: mean Atari came out when I was a kid 27 00:01:07,740 --> 00:01:11,170 Speaker 2: and I entered the online world when I was probably 28 00:01:11,170 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 2: about 29 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,050 Speaker 2: 21, and it was the dial up modem and all 30 00:01:16,050 --> 00:01:18,190 Speaker 2: that kind of thing and the Internet was cool. 31 00:01:18,470 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: Taylor. Do you remember when the internet was cool. It 32 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:21,910 Speaker 1: still is 33 00:01:22,340 --> 00:01:25,250 Speaker 1: good answer. Good answer. 34 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,330 Speaker 1: Helena has a 14 year old daughter. Scarlett and Scarlett 35 00:01:29,330 --> 00:01:31,380 Speaker 1: has spent a lot of time trying to educate her 36 00:01:31,380 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: parents about what she's doing online. 37 00:01:34,540 --> 00:01:37,340 Speaker 1: They do not understand instagram at all. Like they know 38 00:01:37,340 --> 00:01:39,110 Speaker 1: what it's for, they just don't know how to use 39 00:01:39,110 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: it 40 00:01:39,740 --> 00:01:44,900 Speaker 1: at all. You look annoyed because it's so easy, 41 00:01:45,940 --> 00:01:49,380 Speaker 1: it's not even that hard. Have you tried to teach them? 42 00:01:49,990 --> 00:01:52,180 Speaker 1: My mom was like, oh well I keep seeing these 43 00:01:52,180 --> 00:01:54,380 Speaker 1: people dancing on my screen. This this is not what 44 00:01:54,380 --> 00:01:56,070 Speaker 1: I'm not, I don't follow them and like 45 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,290 Speaker 1: your urine reels, that's not nobody watches reels, what are 46 00:02:00,290 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: you doing? She goes, well, I thought that was the 47 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,330 Speaker 1: home button. There is literally a house button, It's a 48 00:02:05,340 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: house 49 00:02:06,540 --> 00:02:09,869 Speaker 1: press the house to get to your home screen, It 50 00:02:09,870 --> 00:02:10,860 Speaker 1: just makes sense. 51 00:02:13,340 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: Have you had moments like this with your son? 52 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,210 Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely. Some of the tools he uses what we 53 00:02:19,210 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: do as you know. Yes. 54 00:02:22,139 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 1: Is he a kind teacher? No, no, he's very impatient. 55 00:02:27,340 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: So it's a trend. Then 56 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: today's story hinges on this fact that many parents just 57 00:02:33,330 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: do not understand the world their kids live in and 58 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,889 Speaker 1: some of the fears and tensions that come out of that. 59 00:02:39,900 --> 00:02:43,900 Speaker 1: I'm taylor Owen an academic who studies technology and who 60 00:02:43,900 --> 00:02:46,890 Speaker 1: is desperately trying to keep up with a very online 61 00:02:46,889 --> 00:02:50,669 Speaker 1: eight year old Nicole Edwards, A journalist whose parents are 62 00:02:50,669 --> 00:02:56,660 Speaker 1: remarkably tech savvy. This is screen time. 63 00:02:57,139 --> 00:03:01,860 Speaker 1: There are huge questions playing out right now over the 64 00:03:01,860 --> 00:03:06,630 Speaker 1: place of technology in our lives. Facebook was scheming to 65 00:03:06,630 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: bring even younger users into their field. You're basically giving 66 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,310 Speaker 1: out your personal I. D. Two games so they can 67 00:03:15,310 --> 00:03:16,460 Speaker 1: make money for it. 68 00:03:16,730 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: There are some people that I would like to block 69 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: in real life, 70 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,929 Speaker 1: we could work together. But it will add the third 71 00:03:23,930 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: tensions because in the app market their job is to sell, sell, sell. 72 00:03:30,500 --> 00:03:33,210 Speaker 1: They're like I just don't understand this is their platform, 73 00:03:33,210 --> 00:03:34,450 Speaker 1: this is their life 74 00:03:34,940 --> 00:03:36,050 Speaker 1: where's the limit? 75 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:37,050 Speaker 1: Mhm. 76 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,580 Speaker 1: Every parent is struggling with these questions, governments around the 77 00:03:40,580 --> 00:03:43,020 Speaker 1: world are trying to keep up and the scale and 78 00:03:43,020 --> 00:03:46,460 Speaker 1: pace of change is only increasing. In this show. We'll 79 00:03:46,460 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: talk to parents and kids about how they navigate the 80 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,570 Speaker 1: digital world and to the researchers and policy makers who 81 00:03:52,570 --> 00:03:54,650 Speaker 1: can help us understand the consequences. 82 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,510 Speaker 1: Helena had a story that I think illustrates how a 83 00:04:03,510 --> 00:04:06,050 Speaker 1: lot of parents feel about their Children navigating the internet. 84 00:04:06,540 --> 00:04:12,140 Speaker 2: My daughter asked for a Fitbit probably about three years 85 00:04:12,140 --> 00:04:15,420 Speaker 2: ago now and she was a Tween and already as 86 00:04:15,420 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 2: a parent worrying about her being on the device is 87 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,710 Speaker 2: too much and not getting enough exercise. So it seemed 88 00:04:20,710 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 2: like a great idea to me, so 89 00:04:23,410 --> 00:04:26,580 Speaker 2: totally embraced the idea and she got a Fitbit and 90 00:04:26,580 --> 00:04:27,130 Speaker 2: I guess it 91 00:04:27,940 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 2: it was probably two or three months later and for 92 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,830 Speaker 2: some reason I came across on her phone that she 93 00:04:35,830 --> 00:04:41,710 Speaker 2: was getting messages through the social media side of Fitbit, 94 00:04:41,710 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: which I had not realized 95 00:04:44,140 --> 00:04:46,469 Speaker 2: really. It hadn't sort of clued in with me that 96 00:04:46,470 --> 00:04:48,460 Speaker 2: there was a social media side to it. 97 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,500 Speaker 2: And my daughter was getting messages from men I guess 98 00:04:52,500 --> 00:04:55,670 Speaker 2: men or boys on on the app that could be 99 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,950 Speaker 2: you know, as outright as will you be my girlfriend, 100 00:04:58,990 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 2: Which just totally stunned me, you know, And we sort 101 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,610 Speaker 2: of laughed a little bit about it. Like what are 102 00:05:05,610 --> 00:05:10,260 Speaker 2: they really expecting they really expecting you to say? Yeah, okay. 103 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: I had no idea. You could message someone on a Fitbit. 104 00:05:16,010 --> 00:05:19,630 Speaker 1: Did you know that? I didn't, I didn't. There's a 105 00:05:19,630 --> 00:05:22,300 Speaker 1: legal academic named Evelyn do eric who likes to say 106 00:05:22,300 --> 00:05:26,469 Speaker 1: that everything is a content moderation problem with technology right now. 107 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,710 Speaker 1: And I think as all these different tools we use, 108 00:05:29,710 --> 00:05:32,460 Speaker 1: whether it be like a peloton or a Fitbit, 109 00:05:32,740 --> 00:05:36,029 Speaker 1: all of these platforms are trying to become social 110 00:05:36,140 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: and the second you try and become social, you have 111 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,619 Speaker 1: to deal with bad content and how you're going to 112 00:05:41,620 --> 00:05:44,860 Speaker 1: decide what can and can't be said. And it's no 113 00:05:44,860 --> 00:05:50,150 Speaker 1: longer just instagram and facebook are exercise bikes and our 114 00:05:50,150 --> 00:05:56,059 Speaker 1: cars and anything that creates a connected environment. Absolutely. 115 00:05:56,140 --> 00:05:58,849 Speaker 1: And to be clear, I'm not sharing this story to 116 00:05:58,850 --> 00:06:01,779 Speaker 1: alert parents to the danger of fitbits or anything like that, 117 00:06:01,790 --> 00:06:04,210 Speaker 1: you know, thankfully nothing happened. Scarlett is fine, 118 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: but Helena's story, 119 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: I guess that a key thing that came up a 120 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,660 Speaker 1: lot when I spoke to parents about online safety, which 121 00:06:10,660 --> 00:06:15,100 Speaker 1: is this concern that there's a hidden threat lurking somewhere 122 00:06:15,100 --> 00:06:15,950 Speaker 1: on the internet. 123 00:06:16,339 --> 00:06:18,890 Speaker 1: Here's Helena thinking that she's letting her kid have something 124 00:06:18,890 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: that's pretty benign, only to find out that there are 125 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,260 Speaker 1: strangers on it who are propositioning her child. 126 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:25,750 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it sort of gets it to 127 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: kind of really critical things here. It's like one we, 128 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: as parents don't always know sufficiently how technologies are kids 129 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: are using are used and what the potential is, right? 130 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: So not knowing even the fit, but had a social 131 00:06:37,850 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: interaction aspect to it. 132 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,930 Speaker 1: But the second is just how to measure harm. Part 133 00:06:41,930 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: of the challenge we face in this debate about online 134 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: security and kids is that 135 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: we conflate all sorts of different kinds of harm. So, 136 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,210 Speaker 1: child exploitative content and sex trafficking on one end of 137 00:06:54,210 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: these really acute horrible things that happen online and that 138 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,779 Speaker 1: we feel like this visceral need to protect obviously our 139 00:07:01,779 --> 00:07:04,820 Speaker 1: kids in our society from and will go to great 140 00:07:04,820 --> 00:07:07,580 Speaker 1: lengths to do that. But then there's just all these 141 00:07:07,589 --> 00:07:10,850 Speaker 1: other harms that teenagers face in this world 142 00:07:10,940 --> 00:07:16,940 Speaker 1: online, of the propositioning the cyberbullying the trolling, the kind 143 00:07:16,940 --> 00:07:20,790 Speaker 1: of gross behavior that exists disproportionate to it doesn't in 144 00:07:20,790 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: the physical world and that might require a different kind 145 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,710 Speaker 1: of response. So, assessing harm and risk is really difficult 146 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,690 Speaker 1: at any time, but I think it's really hard for 147 00:07:29,690 --> 00:07:30,350 Speaker 1: parents 148 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: in this environment, where they don't know always what's going on. 149 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,060 Speaker 1: They don't know how these tools are being used 150 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,260 Speaker 1: and they don't know if their kids are subjective to 151 00:07:39,260 --> 00:07:43,270 Speaker 1: these acute or more sort of systemic harms and how 152 00:07:43,270 --> 00:07:47,340 Speaker 1: they should respond accordingly, right? And Helena's strategy here. And 153 00:07:47,340 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: the reason that she even found out about these messages 154 00:07:50,340 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: is that she checks Scarlett's phone 155 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,450 Speaker 1: um which is something she does periodically, both of them 156 00:07:55,450 --> 00:07:58,270 Speaker 1: are aware. And when Helena brought up what she found 157 00:07:58,270 --> 00:08:00,250 Speaker 1: to Scarlett, it didn't go well, 158 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,260 Speaker 2: I think she felt she'd done something wrong. And I 159 00:08:05,260 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 2: think because I did freak out because it was totally unexpected. 160 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,370 Speaker 2: So she was very upset and I got upset me. 161 00:08:12,370 --> 00:08:14,550 Speaker 2: And these things just sort of escalate. 162 00:08:14,940 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 2: I think it was a bit of a shock to 163 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 2: both of us. 164 00:08:17,510 --> 00:08:20,060 Speaker 1: Scarlett didn't want to talk to me about the Fitbit thing. 165 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: But she did talk about her parents monitoring her internet, 166 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,820 Speaker 1: use her parents do have these rules, like not to 167 00:08:26,820 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: give her information out to strangers. For example. And one 168 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: of the things her mom said is that they keep 169 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,850 Speaker 1: her computer in a common area so they can casually 170 00:08:34,850 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: glance at it when they want to. 171 00:08:39,740 --> 00:08:44,329 Speaker 1: She mentioned that sometimes she looks over your shoulder when 172 00:08:44,330 --> 00:08:45,460 Speaker 1: you're on your laptop, 173 00:08:46,140 --> 00:08:48,260 Speaker 1: how do you feel about that? 174 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:50,820 Speaker 1: It's 175 00:08:52,740 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: it makes me feel like I'm doing something wrong, even 176 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:55,650 Speaker 1: if I'm not 177 00:08:56,140 --> 00:08:57,969 Speaker 1: like I could just be chatting with my friend just 178 00:08:57,970 --> 00:09:00,740 Speaker 1: talking about normal things that I could talk with with 179 00:09:00,740 --> 00:09:01,450 Speaker 1: my mom 180 00:09:01,940 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: and she hovers over my shoulder, I just go, 181 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:05,309 Speaker 1: what did I do? 182 00:09:06,140 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: It's worse when my dad doesn't know because he breathes 183 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,610 Speaker 1: into my ear and just stands there and stares. My 184 00:09:11,610 --> 00:09:14,900 Speaker 1: mom just walks past. My dad is just standing there 185 00:09:14,900 --> 00:09:15,260 Speaker 1: like 186 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: with with with bug eyes. Yeah, I looked into his 187 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,810 Speaker 1: face and he's just judging me and I'm like what? 188 00:09:23,820 --> 00:09:26,260 Speaker 1: I don't understand why, 189 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,290 Speaker 1: No. And then he'll ask a dumb question like, oh 190 00:09:29,290 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: why is she wearing that shirt? I don't know 191 00:09:31,540 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: why shouldn't she wear that shirt? Do you have a 192 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: problem with the fact that her shirt slightly is like 193 00:09:37,390 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: slightly 194 00:09:40,340 --> 00:09:45,050 Speaker 1: revealing? Is that a problem? Can you just go away? 195 00:09:45,050 --> 00:09:46,660 Speaker 1: I'm trying to watch you to leave. 196 00:09:48,540 --> 00:09:51,100 Speaker 1: And this all brings us to this big worry that 197 00:09:51,100 --> 00:09:53,210 Speaker 1: I hear over and over from parents 198 00:09:53,460 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 2: probably she's the first generation that's grown up with it, 199 00:09:57,929 --> 00:10:00,750 Speaker 2: always being in existence. Like there's never been a world 200 00:10:00,750 --> 00:10:05,550 Speaker 2: without the internet for her, without iphones, without all these devices. 201 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:07,930 Speaker 2: I've got no frame of reference for it and we're 202 00:10:07,929 --> 00:10:10,390 Speaker 2: all making it up as we go along and it's 203 00:10:10,390 --> 00:10:13,250 Speaker 2: so difficult and we're probably getting it wrong? 204 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,670 Speaker 2: What can you do? I wonder am I being too strict, 205 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:17,959 Speaker 2: but 206 00:10:19,330 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 2: you know, is it really gonna work? Am I really 207 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:22,290 Speaker 2: gonna protect her? 208 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: So there are two parts to this question on the 209 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,490 Speaker 1: one hand, is my kids safe in these spaces that 210 00:10:28,490 --> 00:10:29,660 Speaker 1: I have no reference for. 211 00:10:30,140 --> 00:10:33,500 Speaker 1: And on the other hand, am I worrying too much? 212 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:35,860 Speaker 1: Like at what point do parents just let go? 213 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,140 Speaker 1: Those are questions parents are clearly struggling with and need 214 00:10:40,140 --> 00:10:44,260 Speaker 1: to ask themselves, but they're not the only players here. 215 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:48,099 Speaker 1: Tech companies are also evolving their own tools for what 216 00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:51,170 Speaker 1: they allow and don't allow. Then governments as well are 217 00:10:51,170 --> 00:10:52,349 Speaker 1: trying to decide 218 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,979 Speaker 1: what rules they should put in place for the companies 219 00:10:54,980 --> 00:10:56,550 Speaker 1: and the tools they design 220 00:10:56,940 --> 00:10:59,689 Speaker 1: and for kids of varying ages and how they engage 221 00:10:59,690 --> 00:11:00,620 Speaker 1: in those spaces. 222 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: The first person I wanted to speak to about this 223 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:10,350 Speaker 1: was Sonia Livingstone 224 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:12,670 Speaker 1: who is one of the world's leading experts when it 225 00:11:12,670 --> 00:11:14,359 Speaker 1: comes to kids in technology. 226 00:11:14,370 --> 00:11:17,929 Speaker 2: Okay, good. Alright. I'm pressing record on the phone. 227 00:11:18,030 --> 00:11:21,370 Speaker 1: She teaches social Psychology at the London School of Economics 228 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,250 Speaker 1: and directs the Digital Futures Commission. 229 00:11:24,740 --> 00:11:26,740 Speaker 1: She is in many ways at the center of the 230 00:11:26,740 --> 00:11:30,410 Speaker 1: kids in tech policy debate both in the UK and 231 00:11:30,420 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: around the world 232 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,780 Speaker 1: and as someone who lives in the UK, she had 233 00:11:34,780 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: a really interesting perspective on how different societies view parenting. 234 00:11:40,140 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 2: So my understanding is that in europe we have more 235 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,590 Speaker 2: of an expectation that Children can have the independence to 236 00:11:48,590 --> 00:11:52,390 Speaker 2: figure things out for themselves and in north America. You 237 00:11:52,390 --> 00:11:54,150 Speaker 2: can tell me if I'm wrong about Canada 238 00:11:54,340 --> 00:11:56,550 Speaker 2: there is more a sense that the parent kind of 239 00:11:56,550 --> 00:11:59,689 Speaker 2: has the right to know everything that's happening to the child, 240 00:11:59,690 --> 00:12:01,060 Speaker 2: including on the phone 241 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,470 Speaker 2: until the child kind of passes a threshold or proves himself. 242 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,300 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess I do have that kind of 243 00:12:07,300 --> 00:12:12,010 Speaker 2: child rights focus that says Children can only really develop 244 00:12:12,020 --> 00:12:16,070 Speaker 2: and gain their agency and autonomy by having the leeway 245 00:12:16,070 --> 00:12:19,470 Speaker 2: to make some mistakes, not terrible mistakes. You know, we 246 00:12:19,470 --> 00:12:20,060 Speaker 2: want some 247 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,510 Speaker 2: kind of safeguards around it, but they've got to have 248 00:12:22,510 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 2: some freedom to 249 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 2: stretch their legs as it were and that might mean 250 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,060 Speaker 2: that they make some mistakes and then you want them 251 00:12:28,059 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 2: to come to you and say, 252 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 2: hey, this happened and that was a problem. We don't 253 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:34,630 Speaker 2: even know what it's like for a child to grow up, 254 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 2: always being watched and checked and kind of controlled. That's 255 00:12:38,460 --> 00:12:39,790 Speaker 1: and what effect is that having 256 00:12:40,370 --> 00:12:43,940 Speaker 2: that has its own effect. Yes, and parents watched anxiously 257 00:12:43,940 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 2: and guiltily. And 258 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,939 Speaker 2: so I see that these are really hard challenges for 259 00:12:48,940 --> 00:12:50,450 Speaker 2: parents to manage. But 260 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 2: I think there has to be an element of standing 261 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,210 Speaker 2: back and making sure you're the person that the child 262 00:12:56,210 --> 00:12:58,109 Speaker 2: will tell if anything goes wrong. 263 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: How do you think parents should think through acceptable risk online? 264 00:13:02,940 --> 00:13:05,490 Speaker 1: And is that the right construct to be thinking about 265 00:13:05,490 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: this from just making small mistakes for kids which are 266 00:13:09,450 --> 00:13:12,150 Speaker 1: part of growing up versus being exposed to 267 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,990 Speaker 1: real potential harm here, which is sometimes the case. 268 00:13:16,540 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 2: I used to say that the analogy was crossing roads 269 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,100 Speaker 2: and walking down the street and so on, but actually 270 00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:25,490 Speaker 2: parents have been making a different decision there too. So 271 00:13:25,660 --> 00:13:28,220 Speaker 2: I think we all know that as Children, we were 272 00:13:28,220 --> 00:13:30,950 Speaker 2: allowed to be able to kind of walk to the 273 00:13:30,950 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 2: streets or to the shops or to the park unaccompanied 274 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,310 Speaker 2: and now Children are much more accompanied. So 275 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,420 Speaker 2: in a way the risk and the fear of getting 276 00:13:39,420 --> 00:13:43,060 Speaker 2: it wrong has spread its online and it's offline. 277 00:13:43,340 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 2: So, you know, I'm a social scientist, I believe in 278 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 2: the summer of statistics, there's no more road accidents. Two 279 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,620 Speaker 2: kids now than 30 years ago. There's no more abductions 280 00:13:52,620 --> 00:13:55,980 Speaker 2: by pedophiles now than they were 30 years ago. There 281 00:13:55,990 --> 00:14:00,950 Speaker 2: is more exposure to online kind of risky content 282 00:14:01,340 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 2: But there is not really more things going wrong in 283 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,100 Speaker 2: children's lives now than there was 30 years ago. So 284 00:14:08,100 --> 00:14:11,420 Speaker 2: I think parents, you know, if you can stand back 285 00:14:11,429 --> 00:14:14,330 Speaker 2: and give the child a bit more leeway, the paradox 286 00:14:14,330 --> 00:14:17,860 Speaker 2: is that you'll have a stronger and more resilient child. 287 00:14:17,870 --> 00:14:20,970 Speaker 2: A lot of the worst risks. They're incredibly rare, just 288 00:14:20,970 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 2: as you know, the chance of your child being knocked 289 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,050 Speaker 2: down by a car on the way to the 290 00:14:24,140 --> 00:14:26,340 Speaker 2: buy an ice cream is very rare and it is 291 00:14:26,340 --> 00:14:30,650 Speaker 2: so beneficial that the child can make that journey by themselves. 292 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:33,650 Speaker 1: Mhm, 293 00:14:35,830 --> 00:14:39,250 Speaker 1: wow, interesting. Yeah, it's really hard to get a worldwide 294 00:14:39,250 --> 00:14:42,180 Speaker 1: picture of this, but it's certainly true that if we're 295 00:14:42,180 --> 00:14:45,380 Speaker 1: looking at Canada and the us both child abductions and 296 00:14:45,380 --> 00:14:48,380 Speaker 1: road deaths are down. But what strikes me here is 297 00:14:48,380 --> 00:14:51,650 Speaker 1: that so much of the public discourse around safety online 298 00:14:51,940 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: revolves around these sorts of really acute harms that Sonja 299 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: is talking about. 300 00:14:56,740 --> 00:14:59,340 Speaker 1: For example, you remember that Apple got into some controversy 301 00:14:59,340 --> 00:15:02,350 Speaker 1: last summer when they introduced new measures to fight child 302 00:15:02,350 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: sexual abuse material, which involved collecting some information directly from 303 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: the phones of their users. 304 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,630 Speaker 1: This set off a huge debate about the balance between 305 00:15:10,630 --> 00:15:12,150 Speaker 1: security and privacy, 306 00:15:12,540 --> 00:15:14,310 Speaker 1: but I talked to someone who thinks this is the 307 00:15:14,310 --> 00:15:15,750 Speaker 1: wrong debate to be having. 308 00:15:16,340 --> 00:15:19,650 Speaker 1: This is Valerie Steeves, professor of criminology at the University 309 00:15:19,650 --> 00:15:21,050 Speaker 1: of Ottawa, 310 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,590 Speaker 1: sorry, I was watching the clock, watching the clock and 311 00:15:25,590 --> 00:15:27,790 Speaker 1: then naturally I got tied up in something on my 312 00:15:27,790 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: computer just when it was time to log in. No problem. 313 00:15:30,930 --> 00:15:32,770 Speaker 1: That's so nice to meet you find that's lovely to 314 00:15:32,770 --> 00:15:35,250 Speaker 1: meet you too. Valerie does a lot of research around 315 00:15:35,250 --> 00:15:38,820 Speaker 1: human rights and technology. She also co leads the equality 316 00:15:38,820 --> 00:15:43,030 Speaker 1: project where she talks to kids policymakers and experts about 317 00:15:43,030 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: ways to promote privacy and equality online. 318 00:15:46,540 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: She makes the argument that this entire discussion is a 319 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: distraction from the broader problems kids actually face online 320 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,340 Speaker 1: and that in fact it's in the interests of tech 321 00:15:56,340 --> 00:15:59,250 Speaker 1: companies for us to be focusing on these kinds of 322 00:15:59,250 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: security issues. 323 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,420 Speaker 1: One of the things that fascinates me that I don't 324 00:16:04,420 --> 00:16:07,250 Speaker 1: think anybody really talks about very often outside of academic 325 00:16:07,250 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: circles is the fact that companies made a very conscious 326 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: choice to stop talking about privacy and start talking about 327 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: security 328 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: company started saying your child is at risk of being 329 00:16:20,170 --> 00:16:24,220 Speaker 1: attacked by a predator. Online company started saying you should 330 00:16:24,220 --> 00:16:26,990 Speaker 1: be concerned your child could be talking to a stranger online. 331 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,540 Speaker 1: I've collected data for years and all of the evidence 332 00:16:30,540 --> 00:16:33,450 Speaker 1: indicates that when kids say they're talking to a stranger online, 333 00:16:33,660 --> 00:16:36,890 Speaker 1: they almost always means someone in the context of their 334 00:16:36,890 --> 00:16:39,860 Speaker 1: social network, their grandmother in Lebanon, that they've never met 335 00:16:39,860 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: a person, their cousin's friend who also plays volleyball in 336 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:44,570 Speaker 1: the town next door. 337 00:16:44,740 --> 00:16:46,970 Speaker 1: Now, if you think about it from a company's point 338 00:16:46,970 --> 00:16:49,060 Speaker 1: of view, this makes perfect sense because if you get 339 00:16:49,060 --> 00:16:50,210 Speaker 1: parents afraid, 340 00:16:50,500 --> 00:16:54,730 Speaker 1: then they will consent to their Children being placed under surveillance. 341 00:16:54,730 --> 00:16:58,290 Speaker 1: And companies very conveniently come and say, don't worry, parents 342 00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:01,380 Speaker 1: will watch your child. We've got this will take care 343 00:17:01,380 --> 00:17:02,260 Speaker 1: of your kiddies. 344 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: And it legitimizes this constant collection of the minutia of 345 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,230 Speaker 1: young people's lives. So I think when we talk about 346 00:17:10,300 --> 00:17:13,460 Speaker 1: the harms that Children face, it's important to realize that 347 00:17:13,460 --> 00:17:17,070 Speaker 1: this is a constructive dialogue, you're being told your kids 348 00:17:17,070 --> 00:17:18,770 Speaker 1: are at risk of these harms because 349 00:17:19,140 --> 00:17:20,410 Speaker 1: it makes somebody money. 350 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,340 Speaker 1: Now in a previous lifetime, I was a criminal lawyer 351 00:17:24,670 --> 00:17:27,780 Speaker 1: and I can tell you that from sex traffickers that 352 00:17:27,780 --> 00:17:30,889 Speaker 1: I have talked to, that the Children who are vulnerable 353 00:17:30,890 --> 00:17:34,649 Speaker 1: to that type of attack share a certain set of characteristics. 354 00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: One of them is not the mere fact that their 355 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: online Valerie says those characteristics include childhood trauma, 356 00:17:41,380 --> 00:17:44,129 Speaker 1: a history of sexual abuse, low self esteem, 357 00:17:44,340 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: running away from home and minimal social support. 358 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: In other words, if your child is vulnerable to that 359 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 1: and they go online, you should be really worried if 360 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,690 Speaker 1: your child is not vulnerable to that and they go online, 361 00:17:58,140 --> 00:18:01,210 Speaker 1: we haven't seen a case where that's worked out badly 362 00:18:01,210 --> 00:18:04,109 Speaker 1: for you or your child. One of the markers and 363 00:18:04,109 --> 00:18:07,409 Speaker 1: vulnerability is not the fact that your kid speaks to 364 00:18:07,410 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: their friends on Tiktok. The real problems you should be 365 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,110 Speaker 1: worried about is the fact that everything they say on 366 00:18:12,109 --> 00:18:15,370 Speaker 1: Tiktok is grabbed by the platform and used for its 367 00:18:15,380 --> 00:18:16,420 Speaker 1: own purposes, 368 00:18:16,540 --> 00:18:18,620 Speaker 1: usually not for the child's well being. 369 00:18:18,740 --> 00:18:23,290 Speaker 1: So the recent news about Facebook, you know, intentionally gathering 370 00:18:23,290 --> 00:18:26,020 Speaker 1: data and using it against young people to give them 371 00:18:26,020 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: a bad sense of self for a bad body image. Well, 372 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,490 Speaker 1: that's good marketing. That's been around for 20 years. I mean, 373 00:18:32,490 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: there's nothing new about this. 374 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,949 Speaker 1: These corporations are purposely injecting a child's social environment with 375 00:18:38,950 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: these highly stereotypical media ties images to manipulate them for 376 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,370 Speaker 1: commercial purposes and to create sticky places where they get 377 00:18:48,369 --> 00:18:51,830 Speaker 1: addicted and feel drawn to out of their own sense 378 00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:55,310 Speaker 1: of insecurity because they drop more data about themselves when 379 00:18:55,310 --> 00:18:57,270 Speaker 1: they're there. So it's a two pronged attack. 380 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,510 Speaker 1: You mentioned Valerie steve speaks to kids to did she 381 00:19:05,510 --> 00:19:08,290 Speaker 1: share any of their thoughts on this? Absolutely, she did. 382 00:19:08,290 --> 00:19:11,379 Speaker 1: And essentially she says they've caught on to what's happening 383 00:19:11,390 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: and they're starting to adapt. 384 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: Well, I've seen a real shift over time actually in 2001, 385 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:18,930 Speaker 1: when we first started talking to kids, 386 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:24,150 Speaker 1: they talked about companies as trustworthy online friends. Oh, it's 387 00:19:24,150 --> 00:19:26,090 Speaker 1: a corporate side, it's got a dot com, I can 388 00:19:26,090 --> 00:19:30,070 Speaker 1: trust that company by 2015 when you sit down with 389 00:19:30,070 --> 00:19:32,610 Speaker 1: kids and talk to them about corporations on the internet, 390 00:19:32,609 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 1: they call them creepy old men 391 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,030 Speaker 1: that they are just trying to manipulate us, Have you 392 00:19:37,030 --> 00:19:39,690 Speaker 1: ever read a privacy policy? It clearly wasn't written, so 393 00:19:39,690 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: I could understand it, 394 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,479 Speaker 1: you know, they're just trying to hoodwink me kids now 395 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: talk about technology as kind of a necessary evil in 396 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:48,740 Speaker 1: my life. Yeah, I have a phone, I love talking 397 00:19:48,740 --> 00:19:52,340 Speaker 1: to my friends, but I'm really careful what I do. 398 00:19:52,410 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: In fact, in the last four years or so we 399 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:59,350 Speaker 1: found kids are withdrawing from online interactions. They have a 400 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,670 Speaker 1: fake online public persona 401 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,700 Speaker 1: that is really bland because they're trying not to attract 402 00:20:04,700 --> 00:20:05,459 Speaker 1: any bad 403 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: consequences, right? But at the same time, I remember about 404 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 1: five years ago, somebody saying, you know, it's really sad now, 405 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:14,290 Speaker 1: all I can do is talk to my friends in 406 00:20:14,290 --> 00:20:22,580 Speaker 1: person comes full circle. It does and I think that 407 00:20:22,580 --> 00:20:24,669 Speaker 1: that's actually a really good sign because it shows you 408 00:20:24,670 --> 00:20:26,170 Speaker 1: that kids are thoughtful 409 00:20:26,540 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 1: and that they are not being Hoodwinked, that they figured 410 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:30,950 Speaker 1: a lot of this out. 411 00:20:31,340 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: But the reason they have is because they've lived the consequences. 412 00:20:34,570 --> 00:20:37,130 Speaker 1: Like I've talked to lots of kids who over the 413 00:20:37,130 --> 00:20:41,700 Speaker 1: years suffered horribly because they posted a bikini shot and 414 00:20:41,700 --> 00:20:45,420 Speaker 1: then they were just ripped into shreds by peers and 415 00:20:45,420 --> 00:20:51,170 Speaker 1: strangers online. And so what they've learned is don't be online. 416 00:20:51,340 --> 00:20:53,820 Speaker 1: They're looking at the internet much more as a flat 417 00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: entertainment medium. 418 00:20:55,740 --> 00:20:57,649 Speaker 1: You have to really be sure of who you're talking 419 00:20:57,650 --> 00:20:59,530 Speaker 1: to in the environment you're in to say something. You 420 00:20:59,530 --> 00:21:03,660 Speaker 1: actually think that's what kids complain about. It's a burdensome, 421 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: unnecessary, difficult world that we've created for them and we've 422 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,850 Speaker 1: created it largely because it works really well for tech companies. 423 00:21:13,940 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: That's super interesting. It reminds me of something Scarlet said 424 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,340 Speaker 1: when I asked her if there's anything she worries about 425 00:21:19,340 --> 00:21:20,450 Speaker 1: encountering online. 426 00:21:20,940 --> 00:21:23,170 Speaker 1: Not really. I mean, I know there's bad stuff, but 427 00:21:23,170 --> 00:21:26,250 Speaker 1: I don't really worry about encountering it because I just 428 00:21:26,250 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: block them. Yeah, it's nice to have that power. There 429 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,260 Speaker 1: are some people that I would like to block in 430 00:21:32,260 --> 00:21:36,270 Speaker 1: real life. It wouldn't that be nice if you just 431 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,790 Speaker 1: straight up block people who don't see them, don't hear them, 432 00:21:38,790 --> 00:21:40,950 Speaker 1: don't know they exist. That would be great. 433 00:21:41,540 --> 00:21:44,450 Speaker 1: Yeah, she's right. I also wish I could block people 434 00:21:44,450 --> 00:21:45,460 Speaker 1: in the real world, 435 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,810 Speaker 1: don't we all Scarlet also runs some servers on discord, 436 00:21:49,810 --> 00:21:52,859 Speaker 1: which is a chat platform with these really long codes 437 00:21:52,859 --> 00:21:53,670 Speaker 1: of conduct. 438 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,740 Speaker 1: Number one. Be respectful, civil and welcoming. Number two, no 439 00:21:57,740 --> 00:22:01,210 Speaker 1: inappropriate or unsafe content. Number three do not misuse or 440 00:22:01,210 --> 00:22:04,100 Speaker 1: spam in any of the channels. Number four do not 441 00:22:04,100 --> 00:22:06,270 Speaker 1: join the server to promote your content. 442 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:07,850 Speaker 1: Mhm. 443 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 1: If people break the rules, she has a series of 444 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: warnings which escalate to them being banned, she seems like 445 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: she's figured out how to keep things manageable and civil. 446 00:22:19,770 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: This is something that really struck me in a lot 447 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,619 Speaker 1: of these conversations is just the sophistication of the self 448 00:22:24,630 --> 00:22:27,450 Speaker 1: governance that's emerging in these spaces. People have 449 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,619 Speaker 1: real rules and guidelines for how they want people in 450 00:22:30,619 --> 00:22:32,169 Speaker 1: their communities to behave. 451 00:22:32,340 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: Kids included. Absolutely, absolutely. The final thing I want to 452 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,860 Speaker 1: talk to Valerie about is whether there's anything parents can 453 00:22:38,859 --> 00:22:40,909 Speaker 1: do to make things a little bit better and a 454 00:22:40,910 --> 00:22:43,950 Speaker 1: little safer. She had a piece of advice that's pretty simple. 455 00:22:44,340 --> 00:22:45,450 Speaker 1: Don't be a hypocrite. 456 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,650 Speaker 1: The first thing you should do as a parent is, 457 00:22:50,650 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: take a real look in the mirror and take an 458 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,090 Speaker 1: inventory of your own tech use because one of the 459 00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:57,700 Speaker 1: consistent things we hear from kids is how much they 460 00:22:57,700 --> 00:23:00,450 Speaker 1: hate the fact their parents use devices. 461 00:23:00,940 --> 00:23:03,510 Speaker 1: I remember when my kids were in high school and 462 00:23:03,510 --> 00:23:06,290 Speaker 1: they came in one day and I was answering an 463 00:23:06,290 --> 00:23:08,939 Speaker 1: email on work on my phone and boy did I 464 00:23:08,940 --> 00:23:11,750 Speaker 1: catch it hot, you know, like I can't believe it, 465 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 1: you know, you're not paying attention to me, I want 466 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: to talk to you about this. 467 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 1: And I realized that as soon as my kids came 468 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,909 Speaker 1: home from high school I put my phone in a drawer, 469 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: I didn't want it anywhere near me. 470 00:23:21,740 --> 00:23:24,350 Speaker 1: Not because they sat down and talked to me every day, 471 00:23:24,350 --> 00:23:27,220 Speaker 1: but because like it's not about, there's no such thing 472 00:23:27,220 --> 00:23:29,869 Speaker 1: as quality time. There's only quantity time you need to 473 00:23:29,869 --> 00:23:34,510 Speaker 1: be there because between 1105 and 11071 night, they might 474 00:23:34,510 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: want to tell you this terrible thing happened at school. 475 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: If you're not there, you don't get it. The interesting 476 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,670 Speaker 1: thing is from kids point of view if I'm on 477 00:23:40,670 --> 00:23:42,949 Speaker 1: my phone or if on my ipad and my computer, 478 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 1: I'm not there because I'm somewhere else. I'm on the screen, right? 479 00:23:47,740 --> 00:23:48,930 Speaker 1: And the last thing I want to ask you is 480 00:23:48,930 --> 00:23:50,350 Speaker 1: really stems off that is 481 00:23:50,740 --> 00:23:52,909 Speaker 1: what parents can learn from their kids here. And I 482 00:23:52,910 --> 00:23:56,169 Speaker 1: think that modeling behavior is probably one of the big ones, right? 483 00:23:56,540 --> 00:24:00,820 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's actually in all forms of parenting, 484 00:24:00,820 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: it is our strongest tool. Kids don't really hear the 485 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: words you say they watch your actions and the way 486 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,570 Speaker 1: you live. So if we model a healthy relationship with technology, 487 00:24:11,570 --> 00:24:13,670 Speaker 1: it's easier for them to navigate this world. 488 00:24:14,140 --> 00:24:17,129 Speaker 1: Keep in mind that it's becoming increasingly common for kids 489 00:24:17,130 --> 00:24:18,550 Speaker 1: to talk about disconnection 490 00:24:18,940 --> 00:24:21,179 Speaker 1: About three years ago, I got a call from my 491 00:24:21,180 --> 00:24:23,740 Speaker 1: friend Val Michaelson and who was at Queen's, She was 492 00:24:23,740 --> 00:24:25,510 Speaker 1: working with a group of kids that wanted to do 493 00:24:25,510 --> 00:24:28,540 Speaker 1: some youth participatory action research. And they were interested in 494 00:24:28,540 --> 00:24:31,850 Speaker 1: social media and how social media affected them. I've heard 495 00:24:31,850 --> 00:24:33,899 Speaker 1: kids for years say, you know, I worry that all 496 00:24:33,900 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: these devices make me lazy. I worry that they cut 497 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,460 Speaker 1: me off from my friends. 498 00:24:38,540 --> 00:24:40,290 Speaker 1: I go over to my friend's house and everybody's on 499 00:24:40,290 --> 00:24:41,660 Speaker 1: their phone that's boring. 500 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,590 Speaker 1: So we worked with this group and they decided that 501 00:24:44,590 --> 00:24:47,219 Speaker 1: they wanted to try a disconnection challenge. They wanted to 502 00:24:47,220 --> 00:24:51,150 Speaker 1: completely unplug from technology for a week. And they were thrilled. 503 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:52,459 Speaker 1: This is amazing. 504 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,020 Speaker 1: It's gonna be so cool. We will see how technology 505 00:24:56,020 --> 00:24:58,950 Speaker 1: affects us. And one kid said, oh, except for school. 506 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:00,550 Speaker 1: You know, my teacher is not going to let me 507 00:25:00,550 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: not use the internet for school. Okay, So no technology 508 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: except for school. Yeah, it'll be amazing. Oh, except my 509 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:08,959 Speaker 1: parents will never put up with that. Because when I'm 510 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: in ballet, my mom always wants me to text her 511 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:12,350 Speaker 1: to let her know when to come. 512 00:25:12,740 --> 00:25:16,290 Speaker 1: And they went, oh, I can't because my coach sends 513 00:25:16,290 --> 00:25:19,830 Speaker 1: me my schedule on my phone. I can't because my 514 00:25:19,830 --> 00:25:21,690 Speaker 1: boss tells me when I need to come in on 515 00:25:21,690 --> 00:25:24,380 Speaker 1: saturday on my phone and they turned to the two 516 00:25:24,380 --> 00:25:26,689 Speaker 1: adults in the room val? And I And they said, 517 00:25:26,690 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 1: what is wrong with you adults? Why are you always 518 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,270 Speaker 1: forcing us to use technology? 519 00:25:36,140 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: So Nicole, I'm curious to hear your thoughts about those conversations. 520 00:25:40,540 --> 00:25:42,470 Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, one thing that stood out to me 521 00:25:42,470 --> 00:25:45,300 Speaker 1: is is the creepy old man archetype and how it's 522 00:25:45,300 --> 00:25:47,260 Speaker 1: undergone a pretty interesting shift. 523 00:25:47,740 --> 00:25:50,990 Speaker 1: You know, where once upon a time kids imagine the 524 00:25:50,990 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: stereotypical internet predator as a man waiting for them in 525 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: a chat room 526 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,420 Speaker 1: today. Instead the creepy old man is actually the tech 527 00:25:58,420 --> 00:26:01,859 Speaker 1: company gathering their information and watching what they do. 528 00:26:02,330 --> 00:26:05,820 Speaker 1: And I think that shows how sophisticated kid's understanding of 529 00:26:05,820 --> 00:26:09,530 Speaker 1: online harms has become. I completely agree. And it really 530 00:26:09,530 --> 00:26:10,550 Speaker 1: struck me 531 00:26:10,940 --> 00:26:14,740 Speaker 1: that people who have spoken to kids over a decade 532 00:26:14,780 --> 00:26:18,250 Speaker 1: see a real change in how kids see this space 533 00:26:18,250 --> 00:26:21,609 Speaker 1: and see harm in this space where originally there was 534 00:26:21,609 --> 00:26:25,510 Speaker 1: this digital divide where the kids understand technology and parents 535 00:26:25,510 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: didn't and parents were scared of it and kids weren't. 536 00:26:29,140 --> 00:26:31,770 Speaker 1: And it seems way more sophisticated now where 537 00:26:31,940 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: kids are actually concerned about some real things. They just 538 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: don't frame it the same way as parents. It's not 539 00:26:38,010 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: this kind of 540 00:26:38,940 --> 00:26:41,590 Speaker 1: predator and a trench coat. It's like you say it's 541 00:26:41,590 --> 00:26:45,790 Speaker 1: more nuanced. It's the type of trolling. They receive the 542 00:26:45,790 --> 00:26:49,010 Speaker 1: type of bad behavior, the data collection, the invasions of 543 00:26:49,010 --> 00:26:52,350 Speaker 1: their privacy. And I think we switch our terms of 544 00:26:52,350 --> 00:26:55,490 Speaker 1: our conversation to theirs. It can be a much more 545 00:26:55,490 --> 00:26:56,810 Speaker 1: constructive place 546 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,050 Speaker 1: for talking about online safety. 547 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,139 Speaker 1: Absolutely. The other thing that I found interesting is something 548 00:27:03,140 --> 00:27:05,060 Speaker 1: Sonia Livingstone said about 549 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,700 Speaker 1: giving kids privacy, you know, I think before hearing from her, 550 00:27:09,710 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: I was pretty guilty of thinking of it as a 551 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: one way street where parents demonstrate their trust in kids 552 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,169 Speaker 1: by giving them autonomy. 553 00:27:19,540 --> 00:27:21,950 Speaker 1: And she kind of brought to mind for me that 554 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,360 Speaker 1: the more we create spaces where kids are able to 555 00:27:25,740 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: play and make mistakes and not feel too surveyed, 556 00:27:30,140 --> 00:27:32,810 Speaker 1: the more trust kids will have in their parents and 557 00:27:32,810 --> 00:27:34,850 Speaker 1: in the adults in their life because 558 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,640 Speaker 1: they'll know that they don't need to hide the fact 559 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,900 Speaker 1: that they've made a mistake or that they've encountered something 560 00:27:40,900 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 1: in an online environment that makes them uncomfortable 561 00:27:43,740 --> 00:27:45,710 Speaker 1: because their parents have given them the freedom to go 562 00:27:45,710 --> 00:27:48,490 Speaker 1: out and have those experiences. And so there's that kind 563 00:27:48,490 --> 00:27:51,070 Speaker 1: of built in confidence that comes from the fact that 564 00:27:51,070 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: they know their parents trust them to Rome. So I 565 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 1: get that and I understand the point that they were 566 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,780 Speaker 1: all making that we need spaces online where kids can 567 00:28:00,780 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: take risks and have privacy 568 00:28:03,740 --> 00:28:07,070 Speaker 1: and have their own identities. The challenge I face, I 569 00:28:07,070 --> 00:28:09,700 Speaker 1: think as a parent is you want those risks to 570 00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:12,530 Speaker 1: be acceptable. You don't want to let your kids loose 571 00:28:12,530 --> 00:28:14,900 Speaker 1: in these places knowing that there's all these benefits they're 572 00:28:14,900 --> 00:28:18,870 Speaker 1: going to get. Well also they be subjected to real 573 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: potential harm. 574 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,700 Speaker 1: And so that for me takes us into a conversation 575 00:28:23,700 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 1: about governance. How do we collectively want to set the 576 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,210 Speaker 1: rules for some of these spaces? So yes, kids have 577 00:28:30,210 --> 00:28:33,570 Speaker 1: freedom and privacy and are able to have independence and 578 00:28:33,570 --> 00:28:36,820 Speaker 1: take risks but also not be subjected to the worst 579 00:28:36,820 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: harms we know potentially exist in this space. 580 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,570 Speaker 1: And that we're gonna be talking about next episode when 581 00:28:41,570 --> 00:28:44,790 Speaker 1: we really dive into some of the governance opportunities in 582 00:28:44,790 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: this space that are being deployed around the world. 583 00:28:47,540 --> 00:28:48,460 Speaker 1: So stay tuned. 584 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. 585 00:28:57,940 --> 00:29:00,670 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of screen time from 586 00:29:00,670 --> 00:29:04,380 Speaker 1: tvo Antica Productions and the Center for Media Technology and 587 00:29:04,380 --> 00:29:06,270 Speaker 1: Democracy at McGill University. 588 00:29:06,940 --> 00:29:09,650 Speaker 1: I produce this show along with our senior producer, kevin 589 00:29:09,650 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: Sexton production assistants by Emily Marantz Research support by Sonia 590 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,190 Speaker 1: Solomon Kody, Hakka and Helen Hayes mixing and sound design 591 00:29:18,190 --> 00:29:19,170 Speaker 1: by Phil Wilson. 592 00:29:19,540 --> 00:29:22,930 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is laura rigor Stuart cox is the 593 00:29:22,930 --> 00:29:26,940 Speaker 1: president of Antica, Katie O'Connor is the senior producer of podcasts. 594 00:29:26,950 --> 00:29:31,450 Speaker 1: A tvo Lori. Few is the executive producer for digital tv. Oh, 595 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: if you like what you heard tell a friend. 596 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, 597 00:29:42,540 --> 00:29:42,700 Speaker 1: yeah, 598 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,270 Speaker 1: nobody reads the terms of service is nobody 599 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: literally, it says terms of services and just click accept 600 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,220 Speaker 1: immediately because nobody cares. I barely have the patience to 601 00:29:56,220 --> 00:29:57,959 Speaker 1: make a sandwich. I'm not going to read that. 602 00:29:58,540 --> 00:30:00,660 Speaker 1: Mm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm 603 00:30:00,660 --> 00:30:00,850 Speaker 1: hmm