1 00:00:06,318 --> 00:00:11,088 Intro Liner: The BFM Breakfast Grille, connecting you to top people and ideas, 2 00:00:11,139 --> 00:00:15,328 Intro Liner: powered by UMobile, Malaysia's number 1 5G network. 3 00:00:16,288 --> 00:00:19,547 Shazana Mokthar: Good morning. You're listening to TheF Breakfast Grille. I'm Shazana Mokhtar. 4 00:00:19,798 --> 00:00:23,138 Shazana Mokthar: This year marks 18 years since the United Nations first 5 00:00:23,137 --> 00:00:26,599 Shazana Mokthar: recognized April 2nd as World Autism Awareness Day to promote 6 00:00:26,599 --> 00:00:29,799 Shazana Mokthar: the full realization of human rights and fundamental freedoms for 7 00:00:29,799 --> 00:00:34,799 Shazana Mokthar: autistic individuals, ensuring their equal participation in society. So to 8 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:38,419 Shazana Mokthar: what extent has growing awareness on autism spectrum disorder or 9 00:00:38,419 --> 00:00:42,919 Shazana Mokthar: ASD translated to actual inclusion of autistic persons in the 10 00:00:42,919 --> 00:00:44,519 Shazana Mokthar: Malaysian working environment? 11 00:00:45,009 --> 00:00:47,769 Shazana Mokthar: Joining me today to discuss this is Beatrice Leong, founder 12 00:00:47,769 --> 00:00:51,769 Shazana Mokthar: of the Autism Inclusiveness Direct Action Group, or AIDA, and 13 00:00:51,769 --> 00:00:56,179 Shazana Mokthar: Florence Tan, corporate sustainability leader at PWC Malaysia, Beatrice, Florence, 14 00:00:56,289 --> 00:00:57,958 Shazana Mokthar: good morning and welcome to the Breakfast Grille. 15 00:00:58,248 --> 00:00:59,379 Beatrice Leong: Hi, good morning. 16 00:01:00,149 --> 00:01:01,239 Florence Tan: Yeah, happy to be here. 17 00:01:01,719 --> 00:01:05,587 Shazana Mokthar: Now Beatrice, the global discourse and understanding of autism has 18 00:01:05,587 --> 00:01:09,158 Shazana Mokthar: evolved over the past several decades and it continues to 19 00:01:09,158 --> 00:01:13,388 Shazana Mokthar: develop as new research and ways of thinking about ASD emerge. 20 00:01:13,759 --> 00:01:16,759 Shazana Mokthar: I'm wondering how much of this is being reflected in 21 00:01:16,759 --> 00:01:21,159 Shazana Mokthar: the Malaysian context. Can we say Malaysians are collectively more 22 00:01:21,159 --> 00:01:25,078 Shazana Mokthar: aware about ASD and perhaps more mindful about how policies 23 00:01:25,079 --> 00:01:26,318 Shazana Mokthar: impact those with autism? 24 00:01:27,448 --> 00:01:29,589 Beatrice Leong: I would like to be very cheeky and say, you know, 25 00:01:29,869 --> 00:01:31,908 Beatrice Leong: awareness is very low, but I have to be very 26 00:01:31,909 --> 00:01:35,589 Beatrice Leong: honest and admit that I think awareness has improved. But 27 00:01:35,589 --> 00:01:39,829 Beatrice Leong: awareness of the term, awareness of autism is one thing, 28 00:01:40,109 --> 00:01:45,179 Beatrice Leong: but understanding, uh, the experience, understanding what does autism mean 29 00:01:45,179 --> 00:01:48,518 Beatrice Leong: and understanding it from a right space, perspective of what 30 00:01:48,518 --> 00:01:51,388 Beatrice Leong: autism is like, even that you had just said, like 31 00:01:51,388 --> 00:01:53,589 Beatrice Leong: I've been like dying to jump in like, no, it's 32 00:01:53,589 --> 00:01:54,278 Beatrice Leong: not ASD. 33 00:01:54,969 --> 00:01:58,329 Beatrice Leong: We no longer call it ASD (Shazana:No Longer call it ASD?) Or at least 34 00:01:58,329 --> 00:02:01,479 Beatrice Leong: we no longer want to get it termed as a disorder, 35 00:02:01,808 --> 00:02:04,689 Beatrice Leong: especially now with awareness, with the growing awareness of the 36 00:02:04,689 --> 00:02:08,597 Beatrice Leong: term neurodiversity, which I'm hoping Florence will chimed in, right? 37 00:02:08,689 --> 00:02:12,119 Beatrice Leong: If we recognize neurodiversity, you can't recognize that a group 38 00:02:12,119 --> 00:02:15,768 Beatrice Leong: is disordered. So that's not framing it the right way 39 00:02:15,768 --> 00:02:28,559 Beatrice Leong: from the right space perspective, but Definitely, I think we had mainstreamed the word and the next step, I would really like us in Malaysia at least to look at a different perspective, how we're going to reframe that understanding now. 40 00:02:29,158 --> 00:02:32,358 Shazana Mokthar: When you mention the term neurodiversity, it's something that's really 41 00:02:32,358 --> 00:02:36,357 Shazana Mokthar: come up in popular parlance only fairly recently, but it's 42 00:02:36,358 --> 00:02:39,318 Shazana Mokthar: a good thing. It's been helpful in reframing how people 43 00:02:39,318 --> 00:02:40,358 Shazana Mokthar: view autism. 44 00:02:41,158 --> 00:02:44,328 Beatrice Leong: I think it had helped, um, but I think different 45 00:02:44,328 --> 00:02:47,809 Beatrice Leong: people have different interpretations of it, like, um, and I 46 00:02:47,809 --> 00:02:50,607 Beatrice Leong: recently just wrote an op ed about this, right? Like 47 00:02:50,608 --> 00:02:53,448 Beatrice Leong: people look at neurodiversity like it's a new term and 48 00:02:53,449 --> 00:02:58,169 Beatrice Leong: often we see like um interchangeably with autism or ADHD 49 00:02:58,169 --> 00:03:01,369 Beatrice Leong: which actually is not. Neurodiversity is actually a term to 50 00:03:01,369 --> 00:03:06,048 Beatrice Leong: point to a social-political identity of the recognition, the human 51 00:03:06,048 --> 00:03:09,889 Beatrice Leong: mind is so diverse and that's where the neurodivergent word 52 00:03:09,889 --> 00:03:14,199 Beatrice Leong: came out. because the smaller population of us don't have 53 00:03:14,199 --> 00:03:18,279 Beatrice Leong: the same uh neurological makeup or we don't have the 54 00:03:18,279 --> 00:03:21,199 Beatrice Leong: same thought process. So there's a lot more to unpack 55 00:03:21,199 --> 00:03:22,089 Beatrice Leong: there as well. Yeah. 56 00:03:22,958 --> 00:03:26,759 Shazana Mokthar: Florence, we have seen over the past 10 years, the 57 00:03:26,759 --> 00:03:30,199 Shazana Mokthar: term neurodiversity and I think recognition of neurodiversity in the 58 00:03:30,199 --> 00:03:33,877 Shazana Mokthar: corporate world, that's really taken place I think largely because 59 00:03:33,878 --> 00:03:37,919 Shazana Mokthar: of advocacy of autism civil society internationally, and this is 60 00:03:37,919 --> 00:03:39,438 Shazana Mokthar: of course in tandem with the push 61 00:03:39,529 --> 00:03:44,139 Shazana Mokthar: f or diversity, equity and inclusion policies under the ESG movement, um, 62 00:03:44,348 --> 00:03:47,059 Shazana Mokthar: I would be curious in terms of when and how 63 00:03:47,059 --> 00:03:51,548 Shazana Mokthar: neurodiversity became part of the nomenclature for PWC when discussing 64 00:03:51,548 --> 00:03:55,499 Shazana Mokthar: disability inclusion and perhaps also more broadly in corporate Malaysia. 65 00:03:55,708 --> 00:03:58,749 Florence Tan: Yeah, so the journey started for us two years ago 66 00:03:58,749 --> 00:04:01,789 Florence Tan: when we had a global strategy and a network to 67 00:04:01,789 --> 00:04:06,578 Florence Tan: include disability inclusion. So whether that is uh physical disability 68 00:04:06,578 --> 00:04:08,628 Florence Tan: or neurodiversity. 69 00:04:09,068 --> 00:04:12,188 Florence Tan: Uh, so the work really started for us then because 70 00:04:12,188 --> 00:04:14,628 Florence Tan: what we needed to do is to kind of uh 71 00:04:14,628 --> 00:04:18,589 Florence Tan: not only create awareness within PWC but also work towards setting, 72 00:04:18,707 --> 00:04:23,309 Florence Tan: setting up a structure like policies, processes and also targets 73 00:04:23,308 --> 00:04:27,029 Florence Tan: to higher. So while we do that internally, really the 74 00:04:27,029 --> 00:04:30,988 Florence Tan: groundwork for us to create awareness and move beyond just 75 00:04:30,988 --> 00:04:33,628 Florence Tan: philanthropy because many people think 76 00:04:33,738 --> 00:04:37,088 Florence Tan: that, oh, we're going to help them. Let's give them money. Uh, 77 00:04:37,207 --> 00:04:40,168 Florence Tan: that's the first, the first thought. And really we want 78 00:04:40,167 --> 00:04:42,849 Florence Tan: to think about if truly we're going to be an 79 00:04:42,849 --> 00:04:46,249 Florence Tan: inclusive society, then we need to kind of see what 80 00:04:46,248 --> 00:04:49,287 Florence Tan: are the opportunities that we can uh give so that 81 00:04:49,287 --> 00:04:51,409 Florence Tan: then they can come in to have a long term 82 00:04:51,409 --> 00:04:55,448 Florence Tan: career that's satisfying and fulfilling for them, right? That's meaningful 83 00:04:55,448 --> 00:04:58,469 Florence Tan: and purposeful for them. So that's our ultimate aim, but 84 00:04:58,667 --> 00:05:00,629 Florence Tan: just wanted to say that we are just starting out 85 00:05:00,628 --> 00:05:03,977 Florence Tan: and it's a long way to go still. Um, so 86 00:05:03,977 --> 00:05:07,659 Florence Tan: the awareness for us, I think what was really useful is, um, 87 00:05:07,667 --> 00:05:11,827 Florence Tan: bringing our people to kind of interact with neurodiverse individuals. 88 00:05:11,948 --> 00:05:15,469 Florence Tan: So we work with Enabling Academy. We not only recruit 89 00:05:15,469 --> 00:05:20,058 Florence Tan: from them, but we also, uh, participate in their training program. 90 00:05:20,388 --> 00:05:22,457 Florence Tan: So they have two cohorts every year. What we do 91 00:05:22,457 --> 00:05:23,219 Florence Tan: is we run 92 00:05:23,577 --> 00:05:26,779 Florence Tan: Uh, workshops on job readiness, how to put up your 93 00:05:26,779 --> 00:05:31,538 Florence Tan: LinkedIn account, mock interviews, uh, doing Excel. Our people get 94 00:05:31,537 --> 00:05:35,928 Florence Tan: to see their capabilities, what they are capable of, their potential, 95 00:05:36,457 --> 00:05:38,488 Florence Tan: and then, uh, for them, then they will be able 96 00:05:38,488 --> 00:05:42,008 Florence Tan: to interact with our people, then hopefully they will be 97 00:05:42,219 --> 00:05:45,528 Florence Tan: they're more job ready. So it's been two years, um, 98 00:05:45,537 --> 00:05:49,339 Florence Tan: and we've hired some someone from the cohort. Uh, the 99 00:05:49,339 --> 00:05:50,658 Florence Tan: other person that we have on the Autism 100 00:05:50,986 --> 00:05:56,135 Florence Tan: Spectrum, he was our first ever individual on the autism spectrum. 101 00:05:56,344 --> 00:05:58,705 Florence Tan: We took him in as an intern in my team 102 00:05:58,705 --> 00:06:01,705 Florence Tan: because I thought like when we first started out, I 103 00:06:01,705 --> 00:06:04,224 Florence Tan: think it's important for my team to understand what it's 104 00:06:04,224 --> 00:06:06,986 Florence Tan: like to work with someone. I thought that it was 105 00:06:06,986 --> 00:06:09,676 Florence Tan: such a good experience, so then we found a role 106 00:06:10,184 --> 00:06:11,285 Florence Tan: for him in the firm. 107 00:06:11,505 --> 00:06:15,265 Shazana Mokthar: In this sense, PWC has really been actively engaging and 108 00:06:15,265 --> 00:06:17,866 Shazana Mokthar: interacting with the neurodiverse community. 109 00:06:18,193 --> 00:06:22,181 Shazana Mokthar: To find ways in which they can fit in your organization, 110 00:06:22,431 --> 00:06:23,873 Shazana Mokthar: and I want to take a step back and I 111 00:06:23,873 --> 00:06:27,861 Shazana Mokthar: think look at the autistic community broadly in Malaysia, which 112 00:06:28,092 --> 00:06:31,313 Shazana Mokthar: statistics are are still pretty scant. So um according to 113 00:06:31,313 --> 00:06:34,162 Shazana Mokthar: the Ministry of Women, Health and Community Development, the number 114 00:06:34,162 --> 00:06:37,383 Shazana Mokthar: of autistic children registered with the welfare department has increased 115 00:06:37,383 --> 00:06:42,432 Shazana Mokthar: sevenfold between 2013 and 2023 to over 53,000 children, which 116 00:06:42,431 --> 00:06:45,152 Shazana Mokthar: is expected with the growing availability of diagnostic services. 117 00:06:45,250 --> 00:06:48,960 Shazana Mokthar: And just awareness about um autism, but even then that 118 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,710 Shazana Mokthar: figure is conservative and I'm wondering, do we know how 119 00:06:52,710 --> 00:06:56,599 Shazana Mokthar: much of that translates to autistic adults Beatrice, and the 120 00:06:56,599 --> 00:06:58,199 Shazana Mokthar: work that you do, the advocacy work that you do 121 00:06:58,198 --> 00:07:02,318 Shazana Mokthar: to your group, um, do we have information on autistic 122 00:07:02,318 --> 00:07:05,109 Shazana Mokthar: adults that are actually employed or in the workforce? 123 00:07:05,599 --> 00:07:07,638 Beatrice Leong: I think when we talk about in terms of stats 124 00:07:07,638 --> 00:07:11,400 Beatrice Leong: and recognition of like an official recognition, like I always 125 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,418 Beatrice Leong: throw this question back. Do you prove that you are 126 00:07:14,417 --> 00:07:17,708 Beatrice Leong: a woman by giving a card out? Do you prove 127 00:07:17,708 --> 00:07:21,507 Beatrice Leong: that you're a man or a male identifying person by 128 00:07:21,508 --> 00:07:23,429 Beatrice Leong: putting your IC out? You don't, right? 129 00:07:23,869 --> 00:07:26,388 Beatrice Leong: So is it important to have that card as a 130 00:07:26,388 --> 00:07:30,148 Beatrice Leong: labor or that formal diagnosis? And because when we go 131 00:07:30,149 --> 00:07:32,589 Beatrice Leong: into that route of thinking that we have to then 132 00:07:32,589 --> 00:07:35,698 Beatrice Leong: look at how many people can afford to get a diagnosis, 133 00:07:36,189 --> 00:07:40,238 Beatrice Leong: it's 18 months for a child, 18 months, and I 134 00:07:40,238 --> 00:07:44,608 Beatrice Leong: got mine at the ripe old age of 35, took 135 00:07:44,607 --> 00:07:46,899 Beatrice Leong: a lot of money, put me in a lot of debt, 136 00:07:47,219 --> 00:07:48,258 Beatrice Leong: and it's not easy. 137 00:07:48,607 --> 00:07:51,619 Beatrice Leong: And it took a long time for a lot of adults, 138 00:07:51,719 --> 00:07:54,619 Beatrice Leong: also like women especially, to get to where I am, like, 139 00:07:54,698 --> 00:07:58,339 Beatrice Leong: oh my God, this is actually the issue. This was 140 00:07:58,339 --> 00:08:02,129 Beatrice Leong: actually the support that I should have from young. But 141 00:08:02,298 --> 00:08:05,338 Beatrice Leong: if we could like make inference, like I think um 142 00:08:05,339 --> 00:08:08,778 Beatrice Leong: we said that we have like about 26,000 registered um 143 00:08:08,779 --> 00:08:13,819 Beatrice Leong: autistic individuals, predominantly children, I would say only like maybe 10, 15% 144 00:08:13,819 --> 00:08:17,249 Beatrice Leong: are adults, but that's also because I think when they 145 00:08:17,249 --> 00:08:21,129 Beatrice Leong: classify who they are, um, it's put into a different category, 146 00:08:21,167 --> 00:08:23,488 Beatrice Leong: so you may not know. So and then some do 147 00:08:23,488 --> 00:08:25,569 Beatrice Leong: not want to get that card. So the statistics are 148 00:08:25,569 --> 00:08:28,409 Beatrice Leong: very low that way. And on top of that, those 149 00:08:28,409 --> 00:08:33,048 Beatrice Leong: who do recognize themselves uh later on in adulthood, 150 00:08:33,499 --> 00:08:35,749 Beatrice Leong: They may find different ways, but because they got it 151 00:08:35,749 --> 00:08:39,668 Beatrice Leong: from a private diagnosis, then it doesn't get recognized. It's very, 152 00:08:39,708 --> 00:08:41,269 Beatrice Leong: very hard to go and get an OKU card when 153 00:08:41,269 --> 00:08:43,519 Beatrice Leong: you're 35 years old. You literally have to like drag 154 00:08:43,519 --> 00:08:45,429 Beatrice Leong: a lawyer to the counter and bang on the door 155 00:08:45,429 --> 00:08:48,477 Beatrice Leong: and like, Hi, I really need my OKU card. But 156 00:08:48,477 --> 00:08:51,559 Beatrice Leong: if we mapped it to what WHO has said, like, 157 00:08:51,629 --> 00:08:54,699 Beatrice Leong: you know, um, the conservative number is 1 to 2% 158 00:08:55,189 --> 00:08:55,908 Beatrice Leong: are autistic. 159 00:08:56,429 --> 00:08:58,668 Beatrice Leong: So if you map it to Malaysia population, I would 160 00:08:58,668 --> 00:09:02,588 Beatrice Leong: say 350,000 of us are, and that's very conservative. Newer 161 00:09:02,588 --> 00:09:05,389 Beatrice Leong: statistics would say it's 4% of the population. So that's 162 00:09:05,389 --> 00:09:08,868 Beatrice Leong: a lot of us out there compared to the official 163 00:09:08,869 --> 00:09:13,218 Beatrice Leong: number of 36,000. And that's also why I always advocate for, 164 00:09:13,348 --> 00:09:14,869 Beatrice Leong: but we want to look at like how we gonna 165 00:09:14,869 --> 00:09:16,868 Beatrice Leong: like how how are we going to do anything, don't 166 00:09:16,869 --> 00:09:21,253 Beatrice Leong: target them, do things that are universally, uh, an improvement 167 00:09:21,254 --> 00:09:26,254 Beatrice Leong: to quality of life to everybody across the neurodiversity. You're 168 00:09:26,254 --> 00:09:28,713 Beatrice Leong: not targeting the neurodivergent, right? You're not going to like 169 00:09:28,713 --> 00:09:30,334 Beatrice Leong: witch hunt them and say, OK, I'm going to help 170 00:09:30,333 --> 00:09:30,843 Beatrice Leong: you now. 171 00:09:31,213 --> 00:09:33,804 Florence Tan: Yeah, I just want to chip in here to say 172 00:09:33,804 --> 00:09:37,394 Florence Tan: that because it's a spectrum, then we're really looking at 173 00:09:37,394 --> 00:09:42,828 Florence Tan: individuals who think differently, process information differently communicate differently, even 174 00:09:42,828 --> 00:09:48,069 Florence Tan: though they are both individuals with autism, because it's a spectrum, right? 175 00:09:48,227 --> 00:09:51,879 Florence Tan: So then the policy cannot be just one size fits all. 176 00:09:52,107 --> 00:09:57,027 Florence Tan: And there's so many neurodivergent types. You've got dyslexia as 177 00:09:57,028 --> 00:10:01,538 Florence Tan: one of them and ADHD and people on the autism spectrum. 178 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,977 Florence Tan: So it's really, I think we are learning as we 179 00:10:04,977 --> 00:10:07,478 Florence Tan: go along but I'm just saying that there is a 180 00:10:07,477 --> 00:10:10,918 Florence Tan: challenge in kind of crafting a policy to fit everyone. 181 00:10:12,357 --> 00:10:14,559 Florence Tan: It went for our process right now as we are 182 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:19,038 Florence Tan: supporting um these two individuals and an intern, uh, currently. 183 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,718 Florence Tan: We find that for all of them, they require different 184 00:10:22,718 --> 00:10:26,959 Florence Tan: forms of support. They're motivated differently, then they they have 185 00:10:26,958 --> 00:10:31,078 Florence Tan: different career aspirations, then you know, if you want to 186 00:10:31,319 --> 00:10:34,319 Florence Tan: see them succeed and see them stay and grow at PWC, 187 00:10:34,357 --> 00:10:37,737 Florence Tan: I feel that it requires a lot of effort and time. 188 00:10:37,958 --> 00:10:39,908 Florence Tan: To kind of understand where they are at and then 189 00:10:39,908 --> 00:10:42,368 Florence Tan: also provide that different support. 190 00:10:42,588 --> 00:10:44,709 Shazana Mokthar: So that is the challenge of it that corporates are 191 00:10:44,708 --> 00:10:47,468 Shazana Mokthar: facing at the moment. Beatrice, if you don't mind, maybe 192 00:10:47,468 --> 00:10:49,449 Shazana Mokthar: we can explore a little bit of your experience because 193 00:10:49,449 --> 00:10:51,548 Shazana Mokthar: like you said, you were diagnosed with autism as an 194 00:10:51,548 --> 00:10:54,898 Shazana Mokthar: adult in your 30s, so you navigated a significant portion 195 00:10:54,898 --> 00:10:56,468 Shazana Mokthar: of your adult life, um, 196 00:10:56,727 --> 00:10:59,569 Shazana Mokthar: But not being formally recognized as autistic but still living 197 00:10:59,569 --> 00:11:03,278 Shazana Mokthar: with the characteristics that make up the reality for you. 198 00:11:03,569 --> 00:11:07,468 Shazana Mokthar: So did being diagnosed change your experience of job hunting? 199 00:11:07,778 --> 00:11:10,759 Beatrice Leong: Yeah, I mean like I have to acknowledge I'm privileged 200 00:11:10,759 --> 00:11:13,129 Beatrice Leong: in a way that like I I I I'm in 201 00:11:13,129 --> 00:11:16,204 Beatrice Leong: the creative industry, right? So all of us are, we 202 00:11:16,203 --> 00:11:19,244 Beatrice Leong: have a little bit more runway to be able to 203 00:11:19,244 --> 00:11:22,203 Beatrice Leong: design a different sort of like career pathway and not 204 00:11:22,203 --> 00:11:25,083 Beatrice Leong: in a traditional sense like I don't have a 9 205 00:11:25,083 --> 00:11:28,963 Beatrice Leong: to 5, uh and maybe out of the, not so 206 00:11:28,963 --> 00:11:33,233 Beatrice Leong: much into the bureaucratic system. Uh, but that being said, uh, 207 00:11:33,244 --> 00:11:36,482 Beatrice Leong: one of the key commonality and challenges between a lot 208 00:11:36,482 --> 00:11:40,482 Beatrice Leong: of autistic individuals, uh, and all neurodivergent is really the 209 00:11:40,482 --> 00:11:43,243 Beatrice Leong: communication difference between us and the majority. 210 00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:47,798 Beatrice Leong: I've never been able to hold down any form of 211 00:11:47,798 --> 00:11:49,918 Beatrice Leong: a job that I had to work in a more 212 00:11:49,918 --> 00:11:52,838 Beatrice Leong: uh traditional environment for a long time. So I keep 213 00:11:52,838 --> 00:11:55,718 Beatrice Leong: switching jobs, but I mask it under or I'm on 214 00:11:55,718 --> 00:11:58,129 Beatrice Leong: a new film project or I'm not a new project 215 00:11:58,319 --> 00:12:00,277 Beatrice Leong: or I'm doing something. So when people look at me, 216 00:12:00,319 --> 00:12:02,319 Beatrice Leong: it's like, wow, we've got a lot of experience, but 217 00:12:02,319 --> 00:12:05,069 Beatrice Leong: underneath that nice thing is actually like I couldn't stay 218 00:12:05,069 --> 00:12:08,199 Beatrice Leong: on longer. But I do come back to look at 219 00:12:08,199 --> 00:12:11,019 Beatrice Leong: like what kept me, what what kept 220 00:12:11,074 --> 00:12:14,423 Beatrice Leong: me going and like Florence said, that motivation is a 221 00:12:14,423 --> 00:12:17,423 Beatrice Leong: huge thing for a lot of autistic individuals. And my 222 00:12:17,423 --> 00:12:21,184 Beatrice Leong: motivation had always been storytelling. So regardless of where I 223 00:12:21,184 --> 00:12:24,273 Beatrice Leong: am or what I do, I've always been within the 224 00:12:24,273 --> 00:12:27,983 Beatrice Leong: filmmaking part, the storytellers part. So I've stuck with making 225 00:12:27,982 --> 00:12:31,453 Beatrice Leong: films for a long time in different, uh, environments. So 226 00:12:31,453 --> 00:12:33,983 Beatrice Leong: that helped. So we should also like again proof to 227 00:12:33,982 --> 00:12:36,384 Beatrice Leong: like you want an autistic individual to drive, you got 228 00:12:36,384 --> 00:12:38,264 Beatrice Leong: to find what's their motivation. That's them. 229 00:12:38,857 --> 00:12:42,259 Beatrice Leong: Not something that's being imposed on them. So that's very important. 230 00:12:42,379 --> 00:12:45,939 Beatrice Leong: So that was the challenge. But I also feel that 231 00:12:45,939 --> 00:12:48,889 Beatrice Leong: like where I am now, because I get to design 232 00:12:48,889 --> 00:12:51,578 Beatrice Leong: how I want to deal with my day. So there 233 00:12:51,578 --> 00:12:54,889 Beatrice Leong: was a structure that I've given back to myself. Um, 234 00:12:54,918 --> 00:12:58,857 Beatrice Leong: and I've also get to design what my limitation or 235 00:12:58,857 --> 00:13:02,498 Beatrice Leong: what my tolerance of distress with people. So I get 236 00:13:02,499 --> 00:13:05,858 Beatrice Leong: to design that myself and I, I really think that 237 00:13:05,857 --> 00:13:06,588 Beatrice Leong: really helped me 238 00:13:06,663 --> 00:13:08,833 Beatrice Leong: in stability and I've always like, you know, pushed this 239 00:13:08,833 --> 00:13:12,713 Beatrice Leong: question back, like, are you giving your employees the same 240 00:13:12,713 --> 00:13:14,763 Beatrice Leong: amount of flexibility in that. 241 00:13:15,764 --> 00:13:18,833 Shazana Mokthar: How does PWC, do you deal with job applicants who 242 00:13:18,833 --> 00:13:22,064 Shazana Mokthar: disclose from the outset that they're neurodivergent or is this 243 00:13:22,064 --> 00:13:24,623 Shazana Mokthar: something that tends to come out much later after they join? 244 00:13:24,913 --> 00:13:27,884 Shazana Mokthar: I guess what has been that experience um with PWC? 245 00:13:28,074 --> 00:13:31,263 Florence Tan: That's a really good question. So where we are yet 246 00:13:32,273 --> 00:13:35,978 Florence Tan: now is that most people feel that Um, it's not 247 00:13:35,977 --> 00:13:39,098 Florence Tan: a safe place and a safe environment to disclose this 248 00:13:39,098 --> 00:13:42,418 Florence Tan: at the point of interview for the fear of being judged, uh, 249 00:13:42,519 --> 00:13:46,917 Florence Tan: negatively and they might not even get through the door. Uh, 250 00:13:47,499 --> 00:13:51,059 Florence Tan: so while we are trying to shape the and create 251 00:13:51,059 --> 00:13:54,699 Florence Tan: an inclusive space, that's our long term goal, um, what 252 00:13:54,699 --> 00:13:57,138 Florence Tan: we have done now is, you know, recruitment forms and 253 00:13:57,139 --> 00:13:58,618 Florence Tan: in certain job, uh, 254 00:13:59,278 --> 00:14:02,487 Florence Tan: Vacancies and job roles, we say that uh we welcome 255 00:14:02,487 --> 00:14:05,959 Florence Tan: people who with disabilities to apply, right? So we want 256 00:14:05,958 --> 00:14:10,078 Florence Tan: to make it clear what that that people with disabilities 257 00:14:10,078 --> 00:14:14,079 Florence Tan: may apply. The recruitment forms also have a section to 258 00:14:14,078 --> 00:14:16,647 Florence Tan: say that yes, I have a disability and I require 259 00:14:16,648 --> 00:14:20,238 Florence Tan: what kind of support at the stage of interview. We 260 00:14:20,238 --> 00:14:21,158 Florence Tan: recognize that. 261 00:14:21,499 --> 00:14:24,038 Florence Tan: Uh, some people, most people will not fill it in, 262 00:14:24,088 --> 00:14:26,408 Florence Tan: but we have put that in, uh, at this point 263 00:14:26,408 --> 00:14:29,648 Florence Tan: in time. Uh, we have cases where they have gone 264 00:14:29,648 --> 00:14:33,519 Florence Tan: through the interview at a later time, let us know that, uh, 265 00:14:33,689 --> 00:14:37,398 Florence Tan: I have a disability that has happened, uh, not many, 266 00:14:37,848 --> 00:14:42,559 Florence Tan: to be, to be honest. Uh, so, and internally we, 267 00:14:42,588 --> 00:14:46,738 Florence Tan: we're trying to really double down on awareness, um, so 268 00:14:46,738 --> 00:14:52,009 Florence Tan: like this whole, uh, autism Day, we are putting out comms, um, 269 00:14:52,019 --> 00:14:56,379 Florence Tan: during our diversity week we invite experts like Annie Blake Academy, 270 00:14:56,418 --> 00:14:59,244 Florence Tan: we have people from Perkeso. Also coming to do talks 271 00:14:59,244 --> 00:15:02,843 Florence Tan: with us, um, so that then we need to kind 272 00:15:02,843 --> 00:15:08,483 Florence Tan: of continue this momentum and just constantly putting the word 273 00:15:08,483 --> 00:15:13,244 Florence Tan: out that yeah, the neurodiverse, what it is, uh, how 274 00:15:13,244 --> 00:15:15,033 Florence Tan: we can support and work with them. 275 00:15:15,918 --> 00:15:19,069 Shazana Mokthar: I'm speaking to Beatrice Leong, founder of AIDA, the Autism 276 00:15:19,069 --> 00:15:23,028 Shazana Mokthar: Inclusiveness Direct Action Group, and Florence Tan, corporate sustainability leader 277 00:15:23,028 --> 00:15:27,139 Shazana Mokthar: at PWC Malaysia. We'll continue this conversation after some messages. 278 00:15:27,228 --> 00:15:29,278 Shazana Mokthar: Stay tuned, BFM 89.9. 279 00:15:29,588 --> 00:15:32,629 Break Liner: You are listening to the Breakfast Grille, brought to you 280 00:15:32,629 --> 00:15:36,259 Break Liner: by UMobile, Malaysia's number 1 5G network. 281 00:15:36,749 --> 00:15:39,069 Shazana Mokthar: Thanks for staying tuned to the Breakfast Grille. I'm Shahzana 282 00:15:39,069 --> 00:15:42,648 Shazana Mokthar: Mokhtar and to mark World Autism Awareness Day on April 2nd, 283 00:15:43,148 --> 00:15:46,304 Shazana Mokthar: on the show with me are Beatrice Leong, founder of 284 00:15:46,304 --> 00:15:50,673 Shazana Mokthar: the Autism Inclusiveness Direct Action Group or AIDA, and Florence Tan, 285 00:15:50,773 --> 00:15:54,663 Shazana Mokthar: corporate sustainability leader at PWC Malaysia. I do want to 286 00:15:54,663 --> 00:15:57,994 Shazana Mokthar: look at perhaps the legal framework, because Malaysia does have 287 00:15:57,994 --> 00:16:01,663 Shazana Mokthar: the Persons with Disabilities Act 2008 that lays out the 288 00:16:01,663 --> 00:16:04,144 Shazana Mokthar: legal rights of the disabled, but it does have a 289 00:16:04,144 --> 00:16:07,343 Shazana Mokthar: lot of gaps. So Beatrice, from your perspective, in what 290 00:16:07,343 --> 00:16:11,504 Shazana Mokthar: ways does this framework fall short, especially in providing protections 291 00:16:11,504 --> 00:16:13,574 Shazana Mokthar: to autistic persons seeking employment? 292 00:16:14,449 --> 00:16:16,699 Beatrice Leong: So this PWD Act, I'm going to briefly say this 293 00:16:16,699 --> 00:16:20,069 Beatrice Leong: is a wonderful storybook and that's it. It's a toothless tiger, 294 00:16:20,179 --> 00:16:23,778 Beatrice Leong: it has no redress mechanism. It even has clauses inside 295 00:16:23,778 --> 00:16:28,358 Beatrice Leong: that that cannot hold uh institutions accountable because everyone's doing 296 00:16:28,358 --> 00:16:31,788 Beatrice Leong: it at best effort. It's a guideline at best, um, 297 00:16:31,939 --> 00:16:34,898 Beatrice Leong: because of uh the way it was drafted. 298 00:16:35,238 --> 00:16:37,348 Beatrice Leong: And I think there's been a lot of efforts at 299 00:16:37,348 --> 00:16:40,588 Beatrice Leong: the moment to uh to redraft it. I do know 300 00:16:40,588 --> 00:16:43,809 Beatrice Leong: a new draft had been rewritten, but, but where is 301 00:16:43,809 --> 00:16:46,249 Beatrice Leong: it now, you know, on whose desk is it on, 302 00:16:46,369 --> 00:16:48,888 Beatrice Leong: when will it get tabled, that had always been the 303 00:16:48,889 --> 00:16:52,037 Beatrice Leong: biggest question for us who works in the advocacy space. 304 00:16:52,288 --> 00:16:53,509 Beatrice Leong: So that's one. And. 305 00:16:53,923 --> 00:16:58,403 Beatrice Leong: Discrimination had been institutionalized, the stigma like people are so 306 00:16:58,403 --> 00:17:02,593 Beatrice Leong: afraid of putting down a disability because you're not protected 307 00:17:02,593 --> 00:17:05,884 Beatrice Leong: even in the Employment Act, even though like all of 308 00:17:05,884 --> 00:17:08,603 Beatrice Leong: these bodies are saying we want to expand our hiring 309 00:17:08,603 --> 00:17:12,043 Beatrice Leong: on neurodiversity, but it's not explicitly protected. 310 00:17:12,607 --> 00:17:15,908 Beatrice Leong: So if so if anything happened in the workplace, you're 311 00:17:15,908 --> 00:17:18,428 Beatrice Leong: not providing me a safe space to be able to 312 00:17:18,428 --> 00:17:21,747 Beatrice Leong: do a redress mechanism, because you can say that like, 313 00:17:21,828 --> 00:17:25,277 Beatrice Leong: oh no, it's actually not your disability, but it's your performance, right? 314 00:17:25,387 --> 00:17:28,828 Beatrice Leong: But what if my disability affected my performance? What are 315 00:17:28,828 --> 00:17:30,788 Beatrice Leong: my routes? There's no clear route, and I have to 316 00:17:30,788 --> 00:17:33,588 Beatrice Leong: be very creative about it by finding it as a 317 00:17:33,588 --> 00:17:36,747 Beatrice Leong: women's issue or a constructive dismissal. I've seen a lot 318 00:17:36,747 --> 00:17:39,428 Beatrice Leong: of cases like that. So when we don't name it. 319 00:17:40,064 --> 00:17:43,105 Beatrice Leong: Then we sweep it under the carpet. So one of, 320 00:17:43,225 --> 00:17:45,574 Beatrice Leong: I think the effort that we are doing right now 321 00:17:45,574 --> 00:17:48,385 Beatrice Leong: in the advocacy that many people who are championing is 322 00:17:48,385 --> 00:17:51,465 Beatrice Leong: to include it right at the top, at the supreme 323 00:17:51,465 --> 00:17:55,625 Beatrice Leong: law of our federal constitution that you cannot discriminate on 324 00:17:55,625 --> 00:17:58,885 Beatrice Leong: grounds of disability. Then you're naming it, then you remove 325 00:17:58,885 --> 00:18:02,345 Beatrice Leong: the shame. When you name something, you actually remove the 326 00:18:02,345 --> 00:18:03,995 Beatrice Leong: shame and that's what needs to be done. That's why 327 00:18:03,995 --> 00:18:06,294 Beatrice Leong: policies actually help to guide that way. 328 00:18:06,541 --> 00:18:10,300 Beatrice Leong: Policies is not meant to be fitting every individual, but 329 00:18:10,300 --> 00:18:13,970 Beatrice Leong: policy must say something as a guideline. This is how 330 00:18:14,281 --> 00:18:16,170 Beatrice Leong: the pathway should be. 331 00:18:16,251 --> 00:18:18,621 Shazana Mokthar: What is your sense of how much traction this is 332 00:18:18,621 --> 00:18:23,631 Shazana Mokthar: getting among policymakers, among MPs, among perhaps the ministry themselves? 333 00:18:23,940 --> 00:18:26,970 Shazana Mokthar: Is there a push being made at the moment for 334 00:18:27,170 --> 00:18:31,011 Shazana Mokthar: the Federal Constitution to be amended to include disability as 335 00:18:31,011 --> 00:18:33,381 Shazana Mokthar: a distinct form of discrimination? 336 00:18:33,819 --> 00:18:36,599 Beatrice Leong: Um, yeah, I think the growing awareness is there. Uh, 337 00:18:36,679 --> 00:18:38,998 Beatrice Leong: there's even an ad hoc committee that's being formed by 338 00:18:38,998 --> 00:18:43,268 Beatrice Leong: the Bar Council, headed by Meera and Anit Kaur, uh, 339 00:18:43,479 --> 00:18:46,878 Beatrice Leong: great advocates for PWDs, a lot of, uh, initial talks 340 00:18:46,878 --> 00:18:51,758 Beatrice Leong: have been done, um, whether do the ministries recognize it, 341 00:18:51,839 --> 00:18:54,679 Beatrice Leong: I think they do, uh, and I'm judging this from 342 00:18:54,679 --> 00:18:57,998 Beatrice Leong: also the engagement that I have and also when they 343 00:18:57,998 --> 00:18:58,998 Beatrice Leong: invite AIDA. 344 00:18:59,548 --> 00:19:02,288 Beatrice Leong: Um, in the last 5 years, I've seen an increase, 345 00:19:02,589 --> 00:19:05,339 Beatrice Leong: but I think it still comes back to the core. 346 00:19:05,908 --> 00:19:09,868 Beatrice Leong: We don't yet know how to work with people with 347 00:19:09,868 --> 00:19:14,788 Beatrice Leong: disabilities in the same as peers, you know, there's a 348 00:19:14,788 --> 00:19:16,418 Beatrice Leong: power dynamics at play. 349 00:19:16,893 --> 00:19:20,934 Beatrice Leong: You know, I, I don't want to like not address that, right? Um, 350 00:19:21,224 --> 00:19:23,903 Beatrice Leong: that power dynamics is so strong because we've always been 351 00:19:23,903 --> 00:19:26,423 Beatrice Leong: in the welfare system, we've always been, you know, I 352 00:19:26,423 --> 00:19:29,084 Beatrice Leong: cannot do it without the money. I want the money, right? 353 00:19:29,493 --> 00:19:32,984 Beatrice Leong: So if I say anything that's against or to break 354 00:19:32,984 --> 00:19:36,184 Beatrice Leong: and disrupt the system, then what's going to happen to 355 00:19:36,184 --> 00:19:39,023 Beatrice Leong: my aid? Are you going to now change the way 356 00:19:39,023 --> 00:19:42,464 Beatrice Leong: that I function or change the way that I exist 357 00:19:42,464 --> 00:19:43,383 Beatrice Leong: in society? 358 00:19:43,748 --> 00:19:47,248 Beatrice Leong: So, so it's tough that way, but the push is 359 00:19:47,248 --> 00:19:50,508 Beatrice Leong: that people are calling it out. You see a lot 360 00:19:50,508 --> 00:19:52,508 Beatrice Leong: more and I think even interviews like that, I see 361 00:19:52,508 --> 00:19:54,788 Beatrice Leong: more and more, you know, like people are trying to 362 00:19:54,788 --> 00:19:57,548 Beatrice Leong: put like in diverse, people are having hard conversations, these 363 00:19:57,548 --> 00:20:00,059 Beatrice Leong: are important. We just need to keep going. 364 00:20:00,288 --> 00:20:03,888 Shazana Mokthar: Um, Florence, I'm curious from your perspective, what's the difference 365 00:20:03,888 --> 00:20:07,834 Shazana Mokthar: between a business that is just paying lip service to inclusivity, 366 00:20:07,903 --> 00:20:10,782 Shazana Mokthar: who's perhaps using it as a box ticking exercise versus 367 00:20:10,783 --> 00:20:14,783 Shazana Mokthar: one that's generally seeking greater diversity in the workforce, especially 368 00:20:14,783 --> 00:20:18,143 Shazana Mokthar: when it comes to autism. If you've had observations from 369 00:20:18,143 --> 00:20:20,184 Shazana Mokthar: different companies you work with, how do we know that 370 00:20:20,184 --> 00:20:24,224 Shazana Mokthar: the company really is genuinely wanting to include autistic persons 371 00:20:24,224 --> 00:20:25,854 Shazana Mokthar: in their labor force. 372 00:20:26,383 --> 00:20:29,584 Florence Tan: I don't want to come across as being judgey or 373 00:20:29,584 --> 00:20:33,508 Florence Tan: calling out other companies, but I feel that there are Uh, a, 374 00:20:33,589 --> 00:20:37,028 Florence Tan: a difference in the kind of, uh, how serious are 375 00:20:37,028 --> 00:20:40,579 Florence Tan: you in finding a job that that that fits that person. Whether, 376 00:20:40,788 --> 00:20:44,339 Florence Tan: you know, they, they have uh taken time to address 377 00:20:44,339 --> 00:20:49,349 Florence Tan: structural issues within the uh within the company. Um, so, 378 00:20:49,429 --> 00:20:51,589 Florence Tan: so I think that that's where you kind of see 379 00:20:51,589 --> 00:20:55,829 Florence Tan: how serious Uh, a company is on hiring people with disability, 380 00:20:56,069 --> 00:20:58,559 Florence Tan: whether it's physical disability or neurodiversity. 381 00:20:58,908 --> 00:21:01,538 Shazana Mokthar: Can you talk to me about what accommodation looks like 382 00:21:01,538 --> 00:21:04,069 Shazana Mokthar: for autistic persons in the workplace? You mentioned yourself that 383 00:21:04,069 --> 00:21:07,109 Shazana Mokthar: you have um autistic employees, but they're different, right? They 384 00:21:07,109 --> 00:21:10,069 Shazana Mokthar: both have different needs. So how do you manage that? 385 00:21:10,309 --> 00:21:14,388 Florence Tan: For neurodiverse individuals, we ask them like, and those that 386 00:21:14,388 --> 00:21:17,268 Florence Tan: we have been working with, they have been able to 387 00:21:17,268 --> 00:21:21,138 Florence Tan: self-advocate what will I need whether that is like a 388 00:21:21,388 --> 00:21:26,179 Florence Tan: permanent working desk because we do hoteling, right, or brightness 389 00:21:26,429 --> 00:21:30,028 Florence Tan: or sound, can I wear my headphones, for instance, then 390 00:21:30,028 --> 00:21:32,979 Florence Tan: we'll say, yeah, sure, you know, so Uh, those are 391 00:21:32,979 --> 00:21:37,459 Florence Tan: the physical, uh, accommodation, but I think also then we 392 00:21:37,459 --> 00:21:40,538 Florence Tan: kind of provide like a coach and a buddy and 393 00:21:40,538 --> 00:21:42,939 Florence Tan: we also the inclusion and diversity team would check in 394 00:21:42,939 --> 00:21:45,939 Florence Tan: with them to kind of provide moral support and also 395 00:21:45,939 --> 00:21:50,523 Florence Tan: like taking a bit of a load off their teams. 396 00:21:50,814 --> 00:21:54,094 Florence Tan: So, so I think it's important to constantly uh check 397 00:21:54,094 --> 00:21:57,413 Florence Tan: in with them and not just expect that once they 398 00:21:57,413 --> 00:22:00,194 Florence Tan: come into the firm, and then it's a win already. 399 00:22:00,814 --> 00:22:05,979 Florence Tan: What I've learned is there's so much time commitment and energy. Uh, 400 00:22:06,099 --> 00:22:10,219 Florence Tan: that's required to keep these conversations going, make sure that 401 00:22:10,219 --> 00:22:12,719 Florence Tan: everyone's on the same page, whether it's HR, their coach, 402 00:22:12,859 --> 00:22:16,219 Florence Tan: their supervisor, and that's I think one way in which 403 00:22:16,219 --> 00:22:19,859 Florence Tan: you can kind of see how serious the company is, uh, 404 00:22:19,898 --> 00:22:23,368 Florence Tan: in allocating people to support this and keep it going. 405 00:22:23,788 --> 00:22:27,668 Shazana Mokthar: You mentioned self advocacy and Beatrice, what are the gaps? 406 00:22:27,859 --> 00:22:29,809 Shazana Mokthar: I'm sure there are gaps when we prepare the younger 407 00:22:29,809 --> 00:22:34,699 Shazana Mokthar: generation of autistic persons that are employable to embark on careers, right? What, 408 00:22:34,929 --> 00:22:37,809 Shazana Mokthar: where do you think the shortfall is in terms of 409 00:22:37,809 --> 00:22:40,489 Shazana Mokthar: the special education system we have or just general education 410 00:22:40,489 --> 00:22:44,778 Shazana Mokthar: system in terms of preparing um autistic young people for 411 00:22:44,778 --> 00:22:45,758 Shazana Mokthar: a work life. 412 00:22:46,209 --> 00:22:48,489 Beatrice Leong: I think we really need to address the core issues 413 00:22:48,489 --> 00:22:52,349 Beatrice Leong: of education system, not just for special needs or for 414 00:22:52,349 --> 00:22:55,798 Beatrice Leong: education on a different track, right? An alternative education track, 415 00:22:56,128 --> 00:23:00,038 Beatrice Leong: but we are also not teaching children. To form their 416 00:23:00,038 --> 00:23:03,719 Beatrice Leong: own thoughts, recognize their own feelings. We, we are not 417 00:23:03,719 --> 00:23:07,638 Beatrice Leong: giving them these tools to be able to tell society 418 00:23:07,638 --> 00:23:10,028 Beatrice Leong: what do we need as children. So if we are 419 00:23:10,028 --> 00:23:13,849 Beatrice Leong: not even providing this on whole to everybody, what more on 420 00:23:14,138 --> 00:23:16,657 Beatrice Leong: special needs education. So we must, we are also in 421 00:23:16,658 --> 00:23:20,538 Beatrice Leong: the age where information is vast, so many different forms 422 00:23:20,538 --> 00:23:24,699 Beatrice Leong: of information, kids access to so many different things, I 423 00:23:24,699 --> 00:23:27,579 Beatrice Leong: call them kids but teens, right? So I I think 424 00:23:27,579 --> 00:23:29,128 Beatrice Leong: we need to look at that. 425 00:23:29,459 --> 00:23:32,258 Beatrice Leong: And because they have much more input, we need to 426 00:23:32,258 --> 00:23:36,618 Beatrice Leong: be providing them tools to discern. Like what's good, what's bad, 427 00:23:36,709 --> 00:23:38,989 Beatrice Leong: what's good for me? How do I tell Mommy I 428 00:23:38,989 --> 00:23:40,709 Beatrice Leong: don't want to do this, like, you know, or if 429 00:23:40,709 --> 00:23:42,699 Beatrice Leong: you are Chinese, I don't want to be an engineer 430 00:23:42,949 --> 00:23:44,349 Beatrice Leong: or I don't want to be an accountant, you know, 431 00:23:44,429 --> 00:23:46,628 Beatrice Leong: I want to be a filmmaker. So we, so we 432 00:23:46,628 --> 00:23:52,589 Beatrice Leong: have that kind of stereotype stigma. So education system needs 433 00:23:52,589 --> 00:23:57,109 Beatrice Leong: to overall on the whole to presume competence. And once 434 00:23:57,109 --> 00:24:00,788 Beatrice Leong: you start from children, when you presume competence that they 435 00:24:00,788 --> 00:24:04,489 Beatrice Leong: can do. Then your teacher's attitude would also change and 436 00:24:04,489 --> 00:24:07,989 Beatrice Leong: start finding support to help them thrive. I just want 437 00:24:07,989 --> 00:24:10,018 Beatrice Leong: to like add this little cute story, right? 438 00:24:10,168 --> 00:24:13,329 Beatrice Leong: So there's this bunch of autistic teenage kids that I 439 00:24:13,329 --> 00:24:16,128 Beatrice Leong: hang out with my friend runs the center. Uh, I 440 00:24:16,128 --> 00:24:19,618 Beatrice Leong: did like a commercial short film last year and I 441 00:24:19,618 --> 00:24:22,498 Beatrice Leong: got this boys to be part of it like as 442 00:24:22,498 --> 00:24:24,859 Beatrice Leong: my extras and one of them was like, oh my god, 443 00:24:24,939 --> 00:24:27,939 Beatrice Leong: this is so cool. And he loves music, he plays metal, 444 00:24:27,989 --> 00:24:30,417 Beatrice Leong: he has like a cute YouTube channel. So I was like, 445 00:24:30,459 --> 00:24:33,689 Beatrice Leong: you know what, maybe you should work in a sound studio, 446 00:24:34,099 --> 00:24:36,648 Beatrice Leong: stick yourself in a studio, play music and all of that. 447 00:24:36,949 --> 00:24:40,868 Beatrice Leong: Guess where he's interning now? At a sound studio. I 448 00:24:40,868 --> 00:24:43,378 Beatrice Leong: think there are this like the presumed confidence because once 449 00:24:43,378 --> 00:24:45,969 Beatrice Leong: I say that and the mentor and the parents are like, oh, 450 00:24:45,989 --> 00:24:48,319 Beatrice Leong: maybe this could be an option. And he's so happy 451 00:24:48,319 --> 00:24:50,949 Beatrice Leong: and yesterday he was talking about I learned this or 452 00:24:50,949 --> 00:24:53,498 Beatrice Leong: like I was doing footsteps and I get to do 453 00:24:53,498 --> 00:24:54,449 Beatrice Leong: a VO. 454 00:24:54,579 --> 00:24:56,908 Beatrice Leong: I want to be a voice talent. So I think 455 00:24:56,908 --> 00:24:59,388 Beatrice Leong: these are the things that kids need days to be 456 00:24:59,388 --> 00:25:02,469 Beatrice Leong: job employed and we need to also expand the job range. 457 00:25:03,048 --> 00:25:06,368 Beatrice Leong: Right now it's very, the moment you're in PPKI or 458 00:25:06,368 --> 00:25:09,589 Beatrice Leong: special needs education, you don't do baking, nothing wrong with that, 459 00:25:09,609 --> 00:25:14,628 Beatrice Leong: tailoring or vocational stuff and it's very gender stereotype as well, 460 00:25:14,729 --> 00:25:17,278 Beatrice Leong: goes to this boy you do that. So we need 461 00:25:17,278 --> 00:25:20,157 Beatrice Leong: to expand. What about arts? What about entrepreneurship? I think 462 00:25:20,158 --> 00:25:23,359 Beatrice Leong: entrepreneurship is great for autistic individual. You work at your 463 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,219 Beatrice Leong: own time, get up at 11 o'clock if you want to. 464 00:25:26,658 --> 00:25:28,719 Beatrice Leong: So all of these things need to be considered, needs 465 00:25:28,719 --> 00:25:31,699 Beatrice Leong: to change, and the key is presume competency. 466 00:25:31,839 --> 00:25:34,158 Shazana Mokthar: This has been such an interesting conversation and I think 467 00:25:34,158 --> 00:25:36,949 Shazana Mokthar: really talking about how we need to shift the way 468 00:25:36,949 --> 00:25:40,479 Shazana Mokthar: we view autism in society, in the workplace and how 469 00:25:40,479 --> 00:25:42,893 Shazana Mokthar: we do things. I'd like t o end with perhaps 470 00:25:42,893 --> 00:25:46,804 Shazana Mokthar: words of advice or encouragement that you have both for 471 00:25:47,163 --> 00:25:51,054 Shazana Mokthar: autistic persons as well as for businesses looking to really 472 00:25:51,054 --> 00:25:54,653 Shazana Mokthar: improve on their inclusion of autistic persons. What message do 473 00:25:54,653 --> 00:25:56,893 Shazana Mokthar: you have to cap our conversation today? Perhaps we'll start 474 00:25:56,893 --> 00:25:58,694 Shazana Mokthar: with Florence and we'll end with Beatrice. 475 00:25:58,893 --> 00:26:02,243 Florence Tan: Yeah, OK, so when we first started out, it was 476 00:26:02,243 --> 00:26:04,804 Florence Tan: so daunting and I was like, oh my gosh, I 477 00:26:04,804 --> 00:26:06,974 Florence Tan: don't know where to start, don't know what to do. 478 00:26:07,319 --> 00:26:11,018 Florence Tan: So then we reach out and speak to many individuals 479 00:26:11,018 --> 00:26:13,819 Florence Tan: about like, can you help educate us? And I think 480 00:26:13,819 --> 00:26:16,658 Florence Tan: it was important for us also to do that active 481 00:26:16,658 --> 00:26:19,739 Florence Tan: role to understand rather than wait for it to be 482 00:26:19,739 --> 00:26:21,859 Florence Tan: given to you. So I think an active role to 483 00:26:21,859 --> 00:26:24,939 Florence Tan: understand is important. Also, I think what's important is to 484 00:26:24,939 --> 00:26:28,339 Florence Tan: have uh top down support. It gives us accountability and 485 00:26:28,339 --> 00:26:31,209 Florence Tan: empowerment to just go out there and put in programs 486 00:26:31,209 --> 00:26:33,099 Florence Tan: to look at how to hire people. 487 00:26:33,699 --> 00:26:37,219 Florence Tan: There is also value in hiring persons with disabilities or 488 00:26:37,219 --> 00:26:40,849 Florence Tan: neurodiverse individuals. What I've seen is they are really hardworking, 489 00:26:41,099 --> 00:26:44,339 Florence Tan: they're really tenacious and resilient and they are really good 490 00:26:44,339 --> 00:26:47,378 Florence Tan: at what they do. So I think it's just recognizing 491 00:26:47,378 --> 00:26:50,048 Florence Tan: where the strengths are and then seeing how we can 492 00:26:50,219 --> 00:26:51,018 Florence Tan: harness that. 493 00:26:51,179 --> 00:26:52,288 Shazana Mokthar: Beatrice, what about you? 494 00:26:52,778 --> 00:26:56,819 Beatrice Leong: I, I, I said this once, um, autism was never 495 00:26:56,819 --> 00:27:00,979 Beatrice Leong: the problem. That's actually how society responds to autism that 496 00:27:00,979 --> 00:27:03,618 Beatrice Leong: had always a problem for me because when I got 497 00:27:03,618 --> 00:27:07,939 Beatrice Leong: my diagnosis, my life didn't automatically change or got better. 498 00:27:07,979 --> 00:27:10,829 Beatrice Leong: I'm still having the same set of challenges, but 499 00:27:11,018 --> 00:27:14,168 Beatrice Leong: I could actually access support or more of I know 500 00:27:14,168 --> 00:27:17,329 Beatrice Leong: what kind of support that I need when it's not available, 501 00:27:17,378 --> 00:27:20,288 Beatrice Leong: I have to be creative about it. And I, I 502 00:27:20,288 --> 00:27:22,809 Beatrice Leong: must also say this, like it's not a magic pill 503 00:27:22,809 --> 00:27:24,638 Beatrice Leong: to say that like, oh, you know, if we get 504 00:27:24,638 --> 00:27:27,809 Beatrice Leong: the right framework, we get the right process, because I 505 00:27:27,809 --> 00:27:30,609 Beatrice Leong: have like, you know, a happy life with everybody and 506 00:27:30,609 --> 00:27:33,298 Beatrice Leong: then you know it's kumbaya, it's not like that. It's 507 00:27:33,298 --> 00:27:36,714 Beatrice Leong: tough to work with me. I, I put it out there. 508 00:27:37,003 --> 00:27:42,003 Beatrice Leong: I find myself so tough to work with myself because 509 00:27:42,003 --> 00:27:44,273 Beatrice Leong: I'm making a film about myself and I'm looking at 510 00:27:44,273 --> 00:27:47,783 Beatrice Leong: myself on the screen. I'm like, why are you like that? Right? 511 00:27:47,793 --> 00:27:50,923 Beatrice Leong: But support is there if you actually know how. It's 512 00:27:50,923 --> 00:27:53,064 Beatrice Leong: about how do you respond and the need support of 513 00:27:53,064 --> 00:27:55,694 Beatrice Leong: knowing what you need is so important. I actually have 514 00:27:55,694 --> 00:27:59,319 Beatrice Leong: a mentor, health supervisor or more like a therapist just 515 00:27:59,319 --> 00:28:02,439 Beatrice Leong: for my film because she helps me know how to 516 00:28:02,439 --> 00:28:05,079 Beatrice Leong: respond to how other people are responding to me when 517 00:28:05,079 --> 00:28:08,479 Beatrice Leong: I'm in markets, when I'm working with my producers, when 518 00:28:08,479 --> 00:28:11,158 Beatrice Leong: I'm working with other people, people who give me feedback 519 00:28:11,158 --> 00:28:14,278 Beatrice Leong: and I don't understand it. So it comes, so going back, 520 00:28:14,439 --> 00:28:17,479 Beatrice Leong: autism is not that problem. It's how other people to 521 00:28:17,479 --> 00:28:18,589 Beatrice Leong: respond to me. 522 00:28:18,804 --> 00:28:20,993 Shazana Mokthar: Both of you, thank you so much for your insights 523 00:28:20,993 --> 00:28:24,724 Shazana Mokthar: um in our conversation. I've been speaking to Beatrice Leong, 524 00:28:24,873 --> 00:28:28,623 Shazana Mokthar: founder of AIDA and Florence Tan of PWC Malaysia. This 525 00:28:28,623 --> 00:28:31,824 Shazana Mokthar: has been the Breakfast Grille on BFM 89.9. 526 00:28:31,993 --> 00:28:36,934 Outro Liner: Business fueling minds, the Breakfast Grille with UMobile biz, Malaysia's 527 00:28:36,934 --> 00:28:41,224 Outro Liner: number 1 5G network. 5G makes business sense.