WEBVTT - Invisible Citizens: The Gender & Class Dynamics of Statelessness 0:00:00.469 --> 0:00:04.650 This is a podcast from BFM 89.9. The Business Station. 0:00:12.850 --> 0:00:15.880 Hello and welcome to Beyond the Ballot box. I'm Du Johan. 0:00:16.010 --> 0:00:20.110 We're talking about statelessness again today because it really is 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:23.350 crunch time right now. The Home Minister Dato Sri Saif 0:00:24.510 --> 0:00:28.090 Na has said that the proposed amendments to the Federal 0:00:28.100 --> 0:00:33.330 Constitution on citizenship matters will be presented to the cabinet 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:36.229 on the eighth of March which is this Friday. 0:00:36.930 --> 0:00:39.949 The cabinet will then decide if the bill is ready 0:00:39.959 --> 0:00:41.830 to be tabled in parliament. 0:00:42.500 --> 0:00:46.500 So what are stateless people and the NGOS working with 0:00:46.509 --> 0:00:50.799 the stateless concerned about? Well, the proposal by the whole ministry, 0:00:50.810 --> 0:00:56.520 a mixed bag. One brilliant step forward, several worrying steps 0:00:56.529 --> 0:01:01.279 back with severe consequences, but it's not too late to 0:01:01.290 --> 0:01:05.029 stop this. On today's show, I'm joined by an expert 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:09.669 in statelessness at an international level. She's associate professor, 0:01:09.779 --> 0:01:14.809 professor rather go from the Peter mcmullin Center on statelessness 0:01:14.819 --> 0:01:18.720 at the University of Melbourne. She also wrote a chapter 0:01:18.730 --> 0:01:23.160 on women in the book called Nationality and Statelessness Under 0:01:23.169 --> 0:01:26.059 International Law, which is what we are going to be 0:01:26.069 --> 0:01:29.839 focused on in this episode. As always, the show is 0:01:29.849 --> 0:01:33.389 available as a podcast. You can find us on the 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:36.919 BFM APP, Spotify or where we get your podcast from. 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:41.160 Rather welcome to the show. Thanks Dash. It's a pleasure 0:01:41.169 --> 0:01:43.220 to be here. Thank you very much for having me. 0:01:43.989 --> 0:01:47.440 Um Let's start with an overview of the current landscape 0:01:47.449 --> 0:01:52.529 of statelessness among women at an international level. How severe 0:01:52.540 --> 0:01:57.900 is the situation? So, it's an excellent question bin because 0:01:57.910 --> 0:02:01.300 uh the short answer is we don't know. And the 0:02:01.309 --> 0:02:03.819 simple reason for that is that statelessness is a bit 0:02:03.830 --> 0:02:05.620 of a hidden human rights issue. 0:02:06.010 --> 0:02:08.229 Uh And one of the reasons it's hidden is that 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:12.788 states or governments don't tend to collect statistics on statelessness, 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:16.559 much less disaggregate them. So what that means is that 0:02:16.570 --> 0:02:20.258 while the international community has a broad idea of how 0:02:20.270 --> 0:02:23.000 many stateless people there might be and that is um 0:02:23.008 --> 0:02:26.630 you know, anywhere between four and 10 or 15 million 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:30.169 people globally, we really don't know the true number and 0:02:30.179 --> 0:02:32.389 we really don't know how many of those people would 0:02:32.399 --> 0:02:32.959 be women. 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:36.478 So it's difficult to know how severe the problem is. 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:39.070 If you also look at some of the reasons why 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:42.850 statelessness exists, uh The main root cause of statelessness is 0:02:42.860 --> 0:02:46.100 discrimination and that is usually discrimination on the basis of 0:02:46.110 --> 0:02:49.750 race or on on the basis of ethnicity. So again, 0:02:49.758 --> 0:02:51.570 it doesn't really give you a good idea of how 0:02:51.580 --> 0:02:55.049 many women will be affected there is. However, the separate 0:02:55.059 --> 0:02:59.830 issue of gender discrimination and nationality laws and that's something 0:02:59.839 --> 0:03:01.100 that we can discuss further. 0:03:01.619 --> 0:03:04.270 So before we get to that, including some of the 0:03:04.279 --> 0:03:09.419 root causes, because it is so difficult to really see 0:03:09.429 --> 0:03:15.720 how prevalent the situation of steepness involving statelessness is. But 0:03:15.729 --> 0:03:18.179 we do know it is serious, it impacts a lot 0:03:18.190 --> 0:03:22.580 of people, millions of people. Could we study trends? Are 0:03:22.589 --> 0:03:25.360 there notable trends? Do you get a sense that things 0:03:25.369 --> 0:03:29.679 are getting better or worse perhaps over the past several decades? 0:03:29.690 --> 0:03:30.799 How do you see that? 0:03:32.050 --> 0:03:35.559 Yeah, it's uh looking back, particularly say over the last 0:03:35.570 --> 0:03:38.860 1020 even up to 50 years, you know, you definitely 0:03:38.869 --> 0:03:43.669 see uh spikes um in particular parts of the world 0:03:43.679 --> 0:03:47.910 or in particular situations. Of course, you have legacy issues 0:03:47.919 --> 0:03:51.940 of statelessness that have existed for a long time now. 0:03:52.339 --> 0:03:55.800 Um including, for example, because of the dissolution of certain States, 0:03:55.809 --> 0:03:59.919 like the former Soviet Republic or the former Yugoslavia when 0:03:59.929 --> 0:04:03.600 those states dissolved and became new states, a lot of 0:04:03.610 --> 0:04:05.880 people fell through the cracks and we're still looking at 0:04:06.179 --> 0:04:09.089 are those legacy situations of statelessness. But if we look 0:04:09.100 --> 0:04:13.339 at trends, say over the last 10 or 20 years, 0:04:13.449 --> 0:04:17.109 we do see that those trends where we've seen increases 0:04:17.119 --> 0:04:21.019 in the number of statelessness uh is because of discrimination, 0:04:21.029 --> 0:04:25.109 particularly racial or ethnic discrimination. And a couple of examples 0:04:25.119 --> 0:04:27.320 that I can point to, for example, include 0:04:27.424 --> 0:04:31.095 uh people of Haitian descent in the Dominican Republic who 0:04:31.105 --> 0:04:35.904 were left stateless after a court decision in 2003. Um 0:04:35.915 --> 0:04:39.803 and that was very much motivated by uh the ethnicity 0:04:39.815 --> 0:04:42.035 of these people who had lived in the Dominican Republic 0:04:42.045 --> 0:04:46.524 for generations who had previously been entitled to Dominican Republic nationality, 0:04:46.535 --> 0:04:49.704 but then who were stripped of it. And perhaps even 0:04:49.714 --> 0:04:54.415 more recently, if you look at 2019 as close to home. Well, 0:04:54.424 --> 0:04:56.744 I'm in Australia but as close to home as India 0:04:57.059 --> 0:05:00.190 um in the state of Assam, we saw an exercise 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:02.920 which is called the updating of the national register of citizens. 0:05:02.928 --> 0:05:06.359 Uh a register of citizens for that state which uh 0:05:06.369 --> 0:05:12.619 after having been updated, left out 1.9 million people whose 0:05:12.630 --> 0:05:15.729 status right now remains a little unclear but could be 0:05:15.738 --> 0:05:17.750 said to be stateless because there is no state that 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.920 is recognizing them currently as their nationals. 0:05:21.988 --> 0:05:24.690 I think that's a very interesting point that doesn't get 0:05:24.700 --> 0:05:30.649 stressed enough. How would you contextualize the root causes of 0:05:30.660 --> 0:05:35.839 statelessness before we dive into, you know, women specifically? Because 0:05:35.850 --> 0:05:39.369 when we look at, let's say the refugee situation, right? 0:05:39.529 --> 0:05:40.570 I think sometimes it's 0:05:40.678 --> 0:05:44.269 a little bit easier to grasp what is going on 0:05:44.380 --> 0:05:49.260 because you see either countries getting bombed by foreign invasion 0:05:49.269 --> 0:05:53.190 or there is a civil war that causes this displacement 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:57.149 of millions of people who are fearing persecution and they 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:00.940 are looking for asylum in other countries. How do you 0:06:01.029 --> 0:06:05.459 look at the root causes of statelessness? Is it more 0:06:05.470 --> 0:06:09.779 towards just discriminatory laws within each nation state. 0:06:11.329 --> 0:06:13.750 Uh It's a, it's an excellent point you make and 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:17.040 you're right, it is somehow easier to conceptualize of who 0:06:17.049 --> 0:06:19.419 a ref refugee is. If you look at the definition 0:06:19.428 --> 0:06:22.790 of a refugee, it in law, it actually talks about 0:06:22.940 --> 0:06:25.989 um the fact that to be a refugee, you need 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:27.859 to have been persecuted. So it already gives you a 0:06:27.869 --> 0:06:30.808 sense of what the cause might be. Um When it 0:06:30.820 --> 0:06:33.570 comes to statelessness, the definition doesn't really give you any clues. 0:06:33.579 --> 0:06:36.250 The legal definition is a person who is not recognized by, 0:06:36.260 --> 0:06:37.149 as a citizen, 0:06:37.380 --> 0:06:40.739 by any country under the operation of its laws. Um 0:06:40.750 --> 0:06:42.769 But if you dig deeper and you look at the 0:06:42.779 --> 0:06:46.339 situation uh that has led to statelessness, there are actually 0:06:46.350 --> 0:06:49.440 multiple root causes. I mean, the most prevalent of them 0:06:49.450 --> 0:06:53.440 is discrimination, be it on the basis of ethnicity, religion 0:06:53.540 --> 0:06:57.600 or race. Um But there are other root causes as well. 0:06:57.690 --> 0:07:01.320 So for example, um statelessness can result, as I mentioned 0:07:01.329 --> 0:07:04.058 earlier as a result of state succession. So um where 0:07:04.070 --> 0:07:07.200 a state um either dissolves and becomes new states or 0:07:07.209 --> 0:07:10.209 combines with another territory to form a new state. Um 0:07:10.220 --> 0:07:13.040 that can be a cause of statelessness when people don't 0:07:13.049 --> 0:07:15.600 get the nationality of the new states that have been formed. 0:07:15.980 --> 0:07:19.209 Um It can also happen because of a lack of 0:07:19.220 --> 0:07:23.070 what we call safeguards in nationality laws. So for example, 0:07:23.079 --> 0:07:26.829 you have a situation where sometimes Children unfortunately are abandoned 0:07:26.839 --> 0:07:30.730 at birth or when they're very young for multiple reasons. Um, 0:07:30.739 --> 0:07:33.540 but sometimes it's very difficult to establish, um, who their 0:07:33.549 --> 0:07:34.489 parents are. 0:07:34.779 --> 0:07:38.739 And in that case, um, it's recommended that countries have 0:07:38.750 --> 0:07:41.609 safeguards in their nationality laws to say, well, ok, if 0:07:41.619 --> 0:07:45.540 I find an abandoned child or a foundling that child absent, 0:07:45.549 --> 0:07:49.799 their parents should immediately acquire the nationality of a state because, 0:07:50.140 --> 0:07:53.880 uh, getting a nationality is really important for accessing other rights. 0:07:54.119 --> 0:07:55.779 But the fact of the matter is that more than 0:07:55.790 --> 0:07:58.399 a third of states around the world don't have this 0:07:58.410 --> 0:08:02.269 fundamental safeguard in their nationality laws. So lack of lack 0:08:02.279 --> 0:08:06.170 of safeguards can be another root cause of statelessness. Another 0:08:06.179 --> 0:08:09.709 cause can be um lack of proper birth registration or 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:13.760 birth certification. Now, having a birth register, having your birth 0:08:13.769 --> 0:08:16.929 registered or, or your birth certified in and of itself 0:08:16.940 --> 0:08:19.989 is not akin to giving, being given nationality. 0:08:20.380 --> 0:08:23.500 But what birth registration does is it records who your 0:08:23.510 --> 0:08:26.720 parents are and where you were born. And those two 0:08:26.730 --> 0:08:31.290 factors are really important for determining, determining which nationality you're 0:08:31.299 --> 0:08:33.890 entitled to acquire. So if you don't have a birth 0:08:33.900 --> 0:08:36.880 certificate or if your your your birth has not been registered, 0:08:36.890 --> 0:08:39.929 then those key pieces of information are missing. And it's 0:08:39.940 --> 0:08:42.450 much easier then for authorities to say, well, you know, 0:08:42.460 --> 0:08:43.549 you don't have your 0:08:44.150 --> 0:08:47.848 proof of which nationality you should be acquiring. You, you know, 0:08:47.859 --> 0:08:50.530 you're not entitled to our nationality. So that can be 0:08:50.539 --> 0:08:53.700 another root cause. And the list can go on, there 0:08:53.710 --> 0:08:56.880 are actually quite a few uh different root causes, but 0:08:56.890 --> 0:08:58.729 I would go back to the fact that the main 0:08:58.739 --> 0:09:00.609 one is discrimination. 0:09:01.309 --> 0:09:05.069 So with that in mind, when it comes to women, 0:09:05.390 --> 0:09:10.689 women who are stateless in particular, um what are the 0:09:10.750 --> 0:09:14.109 root causes of this when it comes to women in particular? 0:09:14.429 --> 0:09:18.348 And I'm wondering if there are legal and cultural barriers 0:09:18.450 --> 0:09:22.099 that impact women's nationality rights across the world. 0:09:24.150 --> 0:09:26.250 So it's, it's a really good question. And you know, 0:09:26.260 --> 0:09:27.960 on the one, on the one hand, I would say 0:09:27.969 --> 0:09:31.449 that there's not been enough research done to know whether 0:09:31.460 --> 0:09:35.099 there are specific root causes that impact on women more 0:09:35.109 --> 0:09:37.489 than they do on men. Um 0:09:37.849 --> 0:09:40.478 It's, it's hard to say that, you know, uh discrimination 0:09:40.489 --> 0:09:42.950 on the basis of race affects women more than men, 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:48.468 it would affect both sexes equally. However, there are some 0:09:48.479 --> 0:09:52.570 specific examples of where women might be more vulnerable to statelessness. 0:09:52.580 --> 0:09:55.760 And let me give you those. Um you can take 0:09:55.770 --> 0:10:00.359 the example of say a nationality law which says that 0:10:00.369 --> 0:10:05.659 if you acquire your spouse's nationality, you immediately lose your 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:07.229 previous nationality. 0:10:07.780 --> 0:10:11.780 But then the nationality law is silent on what happens when, 0:10:11.789 --> 0:10:15.640 let's say, for example, you get divorced from that man 0:10:16.010 --> 0:10:19.760 and the nationality law law of the husband says that 0:10:19.770 --> 0:10:23.479 upon divorce, um you know, uh a foreign woman immediately 0:10:23.489 --> 0:10:26.640 loses that nationality, that she acquired from her husband. 0:10:27.150 --> 0:10:31.409 So in that case, unless the, the nationality law of 0:10:31.419 --> 0:10:34.728 the woman of the woman's country has a safeguard mechanism 0:10:34.739 --> 0:10:38.478 that says, you know, this woman will reacquire her nationality, 0:10:38.780 --> 0:10:42.250 then she will be left stateless. We also have examples 0:10:42.260 --> 0:10:44.380 and this is getting a little bit technical of nationality 0:10:44.390 --> 0:10:47.200 laws that say, um you know, 0:10:48.359 --> 0:10:51.609 in order to acquire another nationality of another person, you 0:10:51.619 --> 0:10:55.959 first need to renounce your, your original nationality. Now, we've 0:10:55.969 --> 0:10:59.869 had situations of women where they have said that they 0:10:59.880 --> 0:11:02.619 are going to get married to a man from a 0:11:02.630 --> 0:11:05.799 different country, they want to acquire that man's nationality, they 0:11:05.809 --> 0:11:09.039 renounce their original nationality, but then the marriage never happens 0:11:09.049 --> 0:11:09.960 for whatever reason 0:11:10.250 --> 0:11:12.659 and then they're stuck in limbo because they can't actually 0:11:12.669 --> 0:11:17.219 reacquire their original nationality. So in this case, women are 0:11:17.229 --> 0:11:20.099 more impacted than men, but it's quite, it's quite a 0:11:20.109 --> 0:11:21.390 specific example. 0:11:22.130 --> 0:11:24.978 And on to your question about how um both in 0:11:24.989 --> 0:11:29.390 terms of legal and cultural terms, um women might, women's 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:33.799 nationality rights might be, might be more affected. Um Certainly 0:11:33.809 --> 0:11:36.280 in terms of a legal matter, what we do tend 0:11:36.289 --> 0:11:40.530 to see is that nationality laws which discriminate when it 0:11:40.539 --> 0:11:43.210 comes on the basis of sex. Uh in terms of 0:11:43.219 --> 0:11:45.419 women being able to pass their nationality on to their 0:11:45.429 --> 0:11:46.869 spouses or to their Children. 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.559 Um, as a sort of legal matter, many of these 0:11:50.570 --> 0:11:54.059 uh nationality laws that prevail in 24 countries uh in 0:11:54.070 --> 0:11:57.169 the case of women who can't pass nationality equally to 0:11:57.179 --> 0:12:00.189 their Children as men, is that in many cases, these 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:04.390 are hangovers from the time that these countries were colonized. 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:07.780 So they're not the sort of original laws of the, 0:12:07.789 --> 0:12:09.900 of the country that we're speaking of, but they're rather 0:12:10.070 --> 0:12:15.250 uh laws that have been passed on over time, including 0:12:15.260 --> 0:12:15.340 when 0:12:15.414 --> 0:12:18.155 those countries were colonized. So they reflect a bit of 0:12:18.164 --> 0:12:21.205 a bygone era in terms of the fact that the 0:12:21.215 --> 0:12:24.664 colonizing state may have actually changed its own laws to 0:12:24.674 --> 0:12:29.614 become gender equal. But the newly independent state has kept 0:12:29.625 --> 0:12:32.155 a previous law that was gender discriminatory. 0:12:32.809 --> 0:12:34.789 So that, that we can see it as having an 0:12:34.799 --> 0:12:38.760 impact both legally in terms of women's rights. But also 0:12:38.770 --> 0:12:42.468 in terms of the cultural practice where, for example, the 0:12:42.479 --> 0:12:45.789 new elites in the country will insist that actually um 0:12:45.799 --> 0:12:49.190 the gender discrimination is not actually a colonial hangover, but 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.390 is actually part and parcel of the state religion or 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:55.699 is actually um a cultural norm, which is in fact 0:12:55.710 --> 0:12:58.630 not the case. Uh It's something that has been inherited. 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:00.159 So 0:13:01.020 --> 0:13:04.900 I want to know what is the impact of being 0:13:04.909 --> 0:13:10.929 stateless towards the people who are stateless and also like 0:13:10.940 --> 0:13:14.390 what is the impact in general? And I know both 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:19.750 stateless men and women face harsh challenges that impact cuts across. 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.159 Like you said, if it's, you know, if people are 0:13:22.169 --> 0:13:26.340 stateless because of their ethnicity, then, you know, regardless whether 0:13:26.349 --> 0:13:27.679 you're a man or a woman. 0:13:27.940 --> 0:13:31.440 Um You know, you are going to be impacted by, 0:13:31.450 --> 0:13:34.880 by the situation, but just looking at it through an 0:13:34.890 --> 0:13:39.200 intersectional lens, what are, what is the distinct challenges or 0:13:39.210 --> 0:13:42.200 impact that stateless women go through? 0:13:43.700 --> 0:13:46.039 Thanks very much for that question. And again, it's a 0:13:46.049 --> 0:13:47.869 good one and I think it's an area in which 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:49.869 a lot more research needs to be done. 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.900 Um But just speaking, you know, in general terms, uh 0:13:54.130 --> 0:13:58.390 uh Hannah Arendt who's a famous philosopher, um who was 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.630 a survivor of the Holocaust once said that nationality is 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:03.840 the right to have rights. Now, we all know that 0:14:03.849 --> 0:14:06.939 universal human rights exist and that they should exist regardless 0:14:06.950 --> 0:14:08.890 of whether or not you have a citizenship. But in 0:14:08.900 --> 0:14:12.539 practical matters, um if you don't have citizenship, it can 0:14:12.549 --> 0:14:16.549 affect your access to other basic rights, like right to education, 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:17.500 right to healthcare. 0:14:17.809 --> 0:14:20.369 Um And for stateless people, this can be really devastating 0:14:20.380 --> 0:14:23.150 because it means that they often can't access the very 0:14:23.159 --> 0:14:26.679 simple services that others can. Um And it has a 0:14:26.690 --> 0:14:29.450 direct impact on their lives in terms of their livelihoods, 0:14:29.460 --> 0:14:31.190 in terms of their ability to earn 0:14:31.409 --> 0:14:34.750 uh a decent living in terms of them to access 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.429 healthcare when they're sick in, in terms of their ability 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:41.049 to even move freely within a country or beyond its borders. 0:14:41.260 --> 0:14:44.190 Um So it really, really strips away at kind of 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:47.039 what it means to exist. Um as a as a 0:14:47.049 --> 0:14:49.710 full human being, in terms of being able to function 0:14:49.719 --> 0:14:51.820 uh in just a very normal fashion. 0:14:52.340 --> 0:14:55.000 Now, when it comes to women, uh and the specific 0:14:55.010 --> 0:14:58.619 impacts that that women face, there are some particular examples 0:14:58.630 --> 0:15:00.739 where if you look at it from an intersectional lens, 0:15:00.750 --> 0:15:03.570 you can see that women are more impacted. One of 0:15:03.580 --> 0:15:05.849 the one of the impacts of being stateless is that 0:15:06.039 --> 0:15:09.330 you're not considered to be a legal person before the law. 0:15:09.340 --> 0:15:12.039 And in fact, many stateless people will be very uh 0:15:12.049 --> 0:15:16.200 nervous to approach law authorities. Um because in some cases 0:15:16.210 --> 0:15:19.150 without paperwork, without an indication of why they are on 0:15:19.159 --> 0:15:19.989 the territory, 0:15:20.270 --> 0:15:25.130 they face detention or imprisonment simply for existing basically. 0:15:25.619 --> 0:15:28.099 Um And you can imagine a situation uh in certain 0:15:28.109 --> 0:15:31.520 communities as with any communities where for example, domestic violence 0:15:31.530 --> 0:15:35.919 exists and domestic violence is generally perpetrated by men against women. 0:15:35.929 --> 0:15:38.450 Uh across the board, you can end up with a 0:15:38.460 --> 0:15:42.880 really bad situation where um women simply have nowhere to turn. 0:15:42.890 --> 0:15:45.929 They cannot go to law authorities, they cannot seek any 0:15:45.940 --> 0:15:49.270 kind of redress um because they are so fearful and 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.200 this is something that would obviously impact women more than 0:15:52.210 --> 0:15:53.640 it would impact men. 0:15:54.210 --> 0:15:56.950 Um I think in other circumstances, um we see in 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.419 different parts of the world where women take on a 0:15:59.429 --> 0:16:03.510 larger burden of, of child rearing. Um as is often 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:06.789 the case, um all of those issues that affect Children 0:16:06.799 --> 0:16:10.070 who are stateless, the woman has to kind of compensate 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:12.950 for that much more. Um So for example, I've seen 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.489 situations where women because they want to ensure that their 0:16:16.500 --> 0:16:19.340 Children are able to access an education and often that 0:16:19.349 --> 0:16:21.239 might mean an education that's private 0:16:21.539 --> 0:16:26.159 pay for, take on ridiculous amounts of work, 34 jobs. 0:16:26.340 --> 0:16:29.820 Um Simply to ensure that their Children are on a, 0:16:29.989 --> 0:16:32.590 you know, close to a level playing field with their 0:16:32.599 --> 0:16:35.849 citizen counterparts. So it's the woman who's kind of having 0:16:35.859 --> 0:16:39.859 to make all these additional compensations, not to say anything 0:16:39.869 --> 0:16:42.489 of the, you know, emotional distress of having to see, 0:16:42.500 --> 0:16:44.669 for example, a child who's injured and not be able 0:16:44.679 --> 0:16:48.340 to take them to the hospital or receive appropriate medical care. 0:16:48.650 --> 0:16:51.669 Um But as I said, a lot of this is anecdotal. 0:16:51.789 --> 0:16:54.049 Um and I think that if a proper study was 0:16:54.059 --> 0:16:57.710 conducted into the intersectional kind of, as you say, um 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:01.789 looking at the impact of stateless statelessness through an intersectional lens, 0:17:01.869 --> 0:17:04.709 I think we might uncover many, many more impacts um 0:17:04.719 --> 0:17:06.000 that are specific to women. 0:17:06.869 --> 0:17:11.319 What are the long term consequences of being stateless? Because 0:17:11.420 --> 0:17:16.139 even in Malaysia and in other countries, you sometimes come 0:17:16.150 --> 0:17:20.930 across examples of people who have been stateless across generations. 0:17:21.030 --> 0:17:23.030 You know, their parents don't have 0:17:23.180 --> 0:17:27.069 a sort of officially formal documents to say they are 0:17:27.079 --> 0:17:30.149 a citizen of X country or Y country, then they 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:33.420 give birth and their Children grow up stateless as well. 0:17:33.430 --> 0:17:36.209 And their Children might then have Children who also grow 0:17:36.219 --> 0:17:39.339 up stateless. What is the impact of this? 0:17:41.099 --> 0:17:43.219 So I think that we can look at impacts at 0:17:43.229 --> 0:17:47.569 three levels. That's the impact on the individual who, whose 0:17:47.579 --> 0:17:51.130 family might have been, you know, stateless for generations. There's 0:17:51.140 --> 0:17:54.650 the impact on the stateless community itself. And then there's 0:17:54.660 --> 0:17:57.160 the impact on the, on the state or the government 0:17:57.170 --> 0:17:59.649 in which um these people are living. 0:18:00.150 --> 0:18:03.500 Um So I might discuss those quickly each in turn. 0:18:03.510 --> 0:18:05.650 So I think at the individual level, you know, you 0:18:05.660 --> 0:18:09.109 can imagine that if your mother has not had the 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:11.329 benefit of going to school and your mother's mother has 0:18:11.339 --> 0:18:12.770 not had the benefit of going to school and your 0:18:12.780 --> 0:18:15.310 mother's mother's mother has not had the benefit of going 0:18:15.319 --> 0:18:18.329 to school. Um This has a trickle down 0:18:18.425 --> 0:18:22.204 effect on you as an individual in terms of your 0:18:22.214 --> 0:18:25.323 sense of self worth, in terms of any aspirations you 0:18:25.334 --> 0:18:28.234 might have in terms of uh your sense of hope 0:18:28.244 --> 0:18:30.895 and perhaps in some cases, the value you might put 0:18:30.905 --> 0:18:34.574 on uh certain things like education because it's just not 0:18:34.584 --> 0:18:36.584 something that you have had access to. 0:18:37.010 --> 0:18:40.239 Um And so I think likewise, um there have been 0:18:40.250 --> 0:18:42.510 some more recent studies done that have also looked at 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.929 um the the mental health of individuals who have been 0:18:46.099 --> 0:18:49.560 intergenerationally stateless if I can put it that way. And 0:18:49.569 --> 0:18:52.478 it's devastating because Children have seen their parents grow up 0:18:52.489 --> 0:18:57.410 with little hope and likewise, um previous ancestors. Um and 0:18:57.420 --> 0:19:01.910 that sense of um uh hopelessness about the future um 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:05.639 is really quite devastating um at the end, 0:19:05.715 --> 0:19:08.615 individual level. And it could also mean that even if 0:19:09.005 --> 0:19:12.365 uh the solution to statelessness, which technically is the grant 0:19:12.375 --> 0:19:16.416 of nationality does happen um in the near future, it's 0:19:16.426 --> 0:19:19.305 very unreasonable in that case to expect most people who 0:19:19.316 --> 0:19:21.975 have been deprived for so long of their rights to 0:19:21.984 --> 0:19:25.255 suddenly say, well, now I have this gateway, right? Let 0:19:25.265 --> 0:19:27.696 me go and access all these things when people have 0:19:27.705 --> 0:19:32.336 not had any um uh experience of doing that before. 0:19:32.345 --> 0:19:34.456 So it means that the ability to act 0:19:34.531 --> 0:19:37.011 those rights that are opened up as a result of 0:19:37.021 --> 0:19:40.031 having nationality is also diminished. And I think that, you know, 0:19:40.041 --> 0:19:41.722 we talk a lot of the idea of a second 0:19:41.732 --> 0:19:44.011 class citizen. I think that what statelessness does at the 0:19:44.021 --> 0:19:48.472 individual level is create a second class human. Um you know, 0:19:48.482 --> 0:19:51.192 a person who is really kind of um deprived in 0:19:51.202 --> 0:19:54.111 many ways, if you look at the community level, you 0:19:54.121 --> 0:19:58.141 can see this expanding this kind of sense of um exclusion, 0:19:58.151 --> 0:20:01.432 marginalization at the community level, which means that it can 0:20:01.442 --> 0:20:03.271 be harder to integrate over time. 0:20:03.579 --> 0:20:06.449 Um And it can be harder for at a community level, 0:20:06.459 --> 0:20:10.010 for even even if the solution of nationality is granted 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:13.329 for this community to really integrate and become a cohesive 0:20:13.339 --> 0:20:17.489 part of, of society um I think it can also 0:20:17.500 --> 0:20:20.379 lead to intercommunal conflict. And we've seen this happen in 0:20:20.390 --> 0:20:22.910 different parts of the world where you have one part 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:24.889 of the community that's living side by side with the 0:20:24.900 --> 0:20:28.250 citizen community. Um And they can see the, the vast 0:20:28.260 --> 0:20:31.540 discrepancies in, in their treatment and this, you know, can understand, 0:20:31.604 --> 0:20:35.574 kindly bubble over into conflict um or even in some cases, 0:20:35.584 --> 0:20:39.045 violence and then at the state level, you know, over time, 0:20:39.055 --> 0:20:42.135 if you have a large uh stateless population that has 0:20:42.145 --> 0:20:45.274 been stateless over time again, you have those same issues 0:20:45.285 --> 0:20:47.864 um of, of potential conflict. 0:20:48.709 --> 0:20:50.689 But if you look at it from the state's perspective 0:20:50.699 --> 0:20:53.170 as well, you really have a situation of what I 0:20:53.180 --> 0:20:57.339 would call multidimensional poverty where you've got people who are 0:20:57.349 --> 0:21:00.709 living in a situation where they're economically poorer, where they're 0:21:00.719 --> 0:21:04.619 less healthy, where they are less educated and this impacts 0:21:04.630 --> 0:21:07.969 the state ultimately. Um also in terms of its own 0:21:07.979 --> 0:21:12.550 development goals. Um and potentially even looking at things like 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:13.319 uh tax revenue 0:21:13.810 --> 0:21:16.699 and so forth. So I think that the um the 0:21:16.709 --> 0:21:21.169 consequences of of being stateless over many generations is really 0:21:21.180 --> 0:21:24.629 very serious and quite underestimated on the show with me 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:28.119 today is Associate Professor Radar Govi from the Peter mcmullin 0:21:28.130 --> 0:21:32.229 Center on statelessness at the University of Melbourne. We will 0:21:32.239 --> 0:21:34.930 continue our conversation after the break. Keep it here on 0:21:34.939 --> 0:21:37.930 beyond the ballot box. BFM 89.9. 0:21:44.660 --> 0:21:47.500 Welcome back to be on the ballot box, I'm Dustin Johan. 0:21:47.579 --> 0:21:50.410 And on the show with me today is Associate Professor Rada, 0:21:50.469 --> 0:21:54.718 go from the Peter mcmullin Center on statelessness at the 0:21:54.729 --> 0:21:57.979 University of Melbourne and we are talking about women and 0:21:57.989 --> 0:22:01.520 statelessness at an international level. This 0:22:01.670 --> 0:22:05.459 conversation will also be available as podcasts. You can look 0:22:05.469 --> 0:22:08.689 up beyond the ballot box on the BFM app, Spotify 0:22:08.699 --> 0:22:11.760 or where we get your podcast from. If you're listening 0:22:11.770 --> 0:22:15.140 to this on Spotify, do give us a follow and 0:22:15.150 --> 0:22:18.530 drop us a review, it would be really, really helpful. 0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:23.729 So rather, you wrote a book on Statelessness with Alice Edwards. 0:22:23.739 --> 0:22:26.430 And indeed, you told a story about a Lebanese mother. 0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:29.958 Um Mali, could you tell me about what she went 0:22:29.969 --> 0:22:33.900 through what you learned, you know, researching and following her story. 0:22:34.390 --> 0:22:36.939