Speaker 1: This is a podcast from BFM 89.9. The Business station.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Beyond the ballot box. I'm Duhan. Johan.
Speaker 1: Israel has continued its destruction of Gaza. Around 40,000 Palestinians
Speaker 1: have been killed. So far half of whom are Children
Speaker 1: besides weak statements about so called red lines. The United
Speaker 1: States of America currently led by Joe Biden has continued
Speaker 1: to give their full backing to Israel to remind everyone
Speaker 1: this conflict did not start on the seven months ago,
Speaker 1: on the seventh of October. The Palestinians have suffered ethnic
Speaker 1: cleansing and oppression by Israel for 75 years. Israel is
Speaker 1: an appetite state but a couple of things for
Speaker 1: Malaysians to ponder one, are we as a nation doing
Speaker 1: enough to help Palestinians and two? Why is it that
Speaker 1: in many parts of the world, the struggle for Palestinian
Speaker 1: liberation has reinvigorated progressive forces. But in polarized Malaysia, even
Speaker 1: this issue is used to sow division around racial lines.
Speaker 1: Joining me on the show to discuss these very heavy
Speaker 1: topics is none other than YB neural
Speaker 1: Ia Anwar, she's the vice president of Klan. She's also
Speaker 1: the former MP of Perma Pao YBN. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: How are you today?
Speaker 2: Thank you
Speaker 2: so much. T I'm good. I think both of us
Speaker 2: recovered from the influenza successful, but of course, we feel
Speaker 2: very so bad to hear the updates. Um And I
Speaker 2: don't think anyone really feels the same after
Speaker 2: being, after seeing so much destruction and um and unfolding
Speaker 2: this genocide,
Speaker 1: it's been incredibly harrowing. How do you reflect on the
Speaker 1: events since October? Not to mention the 70 plus years
Speaker 1: of illegal occupation, land grabbing ethnic cleansing. How do you
Speaker 1: reflect on all this?
Speaker 2: You
Speaker 2: know, actually, you know, we we're building from the experiences
Speaker 2: and the work that has been done by so many,
Speaker 2: I think um Prof Singh was one of the first
Speaker 2: few people I've met, I met following the 7th October
Speaker 2: um attacks
Speaker 2: because he knew precisely the preceding decades of oppression of
Speaker 2: ethnic cleansing of the apartheid regime
Speaker 2: um placed
Speaker 2: that caused so much consternation and of course, led to
Speaker 2: so much strife and it was his KL war crime
Speaker 2: tribunal of 2013 in Malaysia no less that helped open
Speaker 2: up so many the eyes of so many. So I think,
Speaker 2: you know, we discussed that and he actually even in
Speaker 2: those early days who expected the depravity and the cruelty
Speaker 2: to last for so long.
Speaker 2: I mean, right after the IC C gave it the
Speaker 2: announcements issue, the the warrant for war crimes,
Speaker 2: you're talking about nothing short of 60 bombs, you know,
Speaker 2: unleashed in Rafah supposed safe zone. So prof goal was
Speaker 2: really one of the persons I referred to. He warned
Speaker 2: us of the, you know, the issues of continued propaganda
Speaker 2: from the Zionist regime and how they are strongly linked,
Speaker 2: not just economically as you can see, right, one way
Speaker 2: or the other. It's going to be a very challenging
Speaker 2: uphill battle to kind of disproof. And of course, today,
Speaker 2: we know that the 40 be hated babies who are fake.
Speaker 2: And unfortunately, in Rafa, when there's an actual burning of
Speaker 2: Children and babies, this wasn't really being given much coverage
Speaker 2: specifically by the Biden in American
Speaker 2: a government.
Speaker 2: So I think his position is we must remain ahead
Speaker 2: of the curve. You must understand that this is going
Speaker 2: to take place and it's going to be a long
Speaker 2: term struggle to not just showcase the truth but also
Speaker 2: the champion for Palestinian sovereignty. You see how Norway
Speaker 2: Spain and Ireland have kind of woken up and declared
Speaker 2: this and I think this is the way that you
Speaker 2: will have to take on to move to the next step.
Speaker 2: So I mentioned three things, defend, delegitimize and defend Palestine.
Speaker 2: But it's really prof Gurdial who actually then introduced me
Speaker 2: to Dr Aung Swee cha from Beirut to Jerusalem. Brilliant.
Speaker 2: I mean,
Speaker 2: I eat less. No, you know, nothing less than that.
Speaker 2: And I feel
Speaker 2: there are so many giants, you know, who have been
Speaker 2: there who've been advocating and such a diverse multicultural activist
Speaker 2: activism
Speaker 2: at work. Um And that's why for me celebrating it, understanding,
Speaker 2: this is about fighting colonialism, fighting against oppression and ensuring
Speaker 2: that liberty. And of course, um
Speaker 2: sovereignty for Palestinians takes place.
Speaker 1: What
Speaker 1: are your thoughts on the complicity of certain Western countries,
Speaker 1: particularly the US in this genocide? Right? Because as many
Speaker 1: people have pointed out, we are not just going up
Speaker 1: against Israel, we are going up against Israel with the
Speaker 1: complete backing of the American Empire, its closest allies.
Speaker 2: I think it's nothing short of shocking. I mean, the
Speaker 2: level of not just support, I think enabling
Speaker 2: of the ongoing genocide.
Speaker 2: Malaysia is a nation that never denied the holocaust took
Speaker 2: place but to see an unfolding the second holocaust and
Speaker 2: to also see the complicity of western nations and what
Speaker 2: what you've unheard what unearthed what you've led from your
Speaker 2: series of actions, weaponizing, enabling them is to create a
Speaker 2: rogue state
Speaker 2: in which brings so much danger to everybody because you
Speaker 2: have a clear cut national humanitarian rule of law, right?
Speaker 2: Standards that everyone has to respect
Speaker 2: and countries have been sanctioned before so many when they
Speaker 2: cross the red line, right? But when you allow for
Speaker 2: such impunity, it's a danger to the entire entire world.
Speaker 2: And I think that's what's so concerning because of course,
Speaker 2: the sheer hypocrisy, I think we join
Speaker 2: the groups and the students across American universities who have
Speaker 2: been speaking up and taken such a terrible onslaught for it. Right.
Speaker 2: They've been initially abused during this peaceful encampments. And I
Speaker 2: think there's a testament,
Speaker 2: there's a huge disconnect from what the government in the
Speaker 2: Biden administration is doing and what the people are actually expressing.
Speaker 2: I remember I was in the US when the war
Speaker 2: in Iraq took place and the then president came to
Speaker 2: visit and I was one of the protesters against the
Speaker 2: Iraq war.
Speaker 2: Um, you know, lost a lot of friends there. But
Speaker 2: I have to say, yeah, but this is the thing, right?
Speaker 2: We have to be consistent. And the problem is when
Speaker 2: when you are not adhering to your list of demands
Speaker 2: on others, when you are really showcasing your own inner hypocrisy,
Speaker 2: then definitely you're going to be, you should be called out.
Speaker 2: I think the bigger issue is at the same time,
Speaker 2: you see this growth, right? This, this movement of global South,
Speaker 2: this moral imperative being brought forward by none other than
Speaker 2: a former colonized state like South Africa, like Brazil, you know,
Speaker 2: the fact that a country that has spoken out very
Speaker 2: strongly and they've showcased that the world order
Speaker 2: can be much, much better and fairer. And I think
Speaker 2: this should be a wake up call for the US
Speaker 2: to do. What's right? I think, you know, it shocks
Speaker 2: me that we're on our seventh month. It's um it's unacceptable.
Speaker 1: Do you think we can do more as a country
Speaker 1: to help Palestinian people? Especially Palestinian people who are here
Speaker 1: in Malaysia, refugees as a whole who are here in
Speaker 1: Malaysia.
Speaker 2: So I've written about this together with fellow Asian Yolanda Augustine,
Speaker 2: I believe very strongly about this. I think it's important
Speaker 2: to also look at the past examples. If you look
Speaker 2: at the Bosnia case in Malaysia was there was at
Speaker 2: the forefront even allowing them, of course, providing education. But
Speaker 2: in terms of the refugee perspective or ecosystem,
Speaker 2: what I stated clearly was to look at examples where
Speaker 2: it is symbiotic. It is not something that the nation
Speaker 2: will lose out because I understand there's so much fear
Speaker 2: and security, but we also must remain consistent right back home.
Speaker 2: And I hope that communities and stakeholders can be more empathetic.
Speaker 2: And I see this from many quarters. Nonetheless, Turkey's example,
Speaker 2: really showcases the opportunity where, you know, when work permits
Speaker 2: are accorded. Then of course, you are also able to
Speaker 2: ensure that refugees are beneficiaries to the government or the
Speaker 2: host government. But it really requires a lot of empathy acceptance.
Speaker 2: It is not very popular to say this. But I,
Speaker 2: I always believe this and I I said it at
Speaker 2: the Mercy International Humanitarian Conference. You know,
Speaker 2: sometimes we look at our lives and it's akin to
Speaker 2: a lottery of birth, the fact that we have citizenship,
Speaker 2: the fact that we are living in peace and these
Speaker 2: are great blessings. But by the same token, you know,
Speaker 2: we could also be born in Rafa, a war on
Speaker 2: a challenging region or even, you know, our neighbors. So
Speaker 2: I don't have to go far. I think more can
Speaker 2: be done. I did of course celebrate the effort, you know, Hasanah,
Speaker 2: according scholarships, we're talking about some programs that are being supported.
Speaker 2: The Ministry of Higher Education did
Speaker 2: lend its support to current students, Palestinian students studying in
Speaker 2: our various universities. But of course, you have to look
Speaker 2: at it far more holistically. And then, you know, we
Speaker 2: keep on bringing this as a case for concern while
Speaker 2: also taking into account,
Speaker 2: I would say rather hostile local environment. But yes, I
Speaker 2: think we are always going to be the better for it. Right.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. And also on that note about doing more, some people,
Speaker 1: I think unfairly tend to brush off Prime Minister Anwar
Speaker 1: Ibrahim's pro Palestinian speeches on the internet
Speaker 1: national stage. They say it's just why. But I disagree.
Speaker 1: I think it's incredibly important. I felt very proud as
Speaker 1: a Malaysian watching the Prime Minister's school, German Chancellor on
Speaker 1: the Palestinian struggle. I think he represented people who were
Speaker 1: formally colonized really well. But at the same time, I
Speaker 1: have to also ask recently, there was a national security
Speaker 1: Asia exhibitions organized by our government,
Speaker 1: the solidarity for Palestinian coalition. They held a brief rally
Speaker 1: outside the exhibition center to protest the presence of us
Speaker 1: weapons manufacturers, Lockheed and Martin et cetera, which were, and
Speaker 1: these were seen to be weapons promoting weapons manufacturers, whose
Speaker 1: bombs are being dropped in Rafa right now, do you
Speaker 1: think this is a bit of a contradiction on our part?
Speaker 1: A bit of a slight bit of hypocrisy as well.
Speaker 2: I think it's very important for the ministries, especially the
Speaker 2: ones hosting the state event to be cognizant that
Speaker 2: even in the whole list of demonstrations taking place in
Speaker 2: the US? I remember there was a substack email, Adam
Speaker 2: to actually covered the students research
Speaker 2: in terms of why is it? They're so angry. So
Speaker 2: issues of investments and we understand is deeply interlinked. But
Speaker 2: it also should be a good reminder, right? And I
Speaker 2: applaud that there are voices, they are of course organizations
Speaker 2: speaking up highlighting this and it's important to take into account.
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna say it's going to be easy.
Speaker 2: We understand the precarious position everyone is in. But by
Speaker 2: the same token, we also have to take that extra step.
Speaker 2: So it's good that it's being highlighted. And I hope
Speaker 2: that they take it very seriously because all this, all
Speaker 2: these things, I mean, they are profiteering from, from death essentially.
Speaker 2: And one of the things that Adam too said
Speaker 2: surprisingly enough in a podcast recorded at Johns Hopkins University,
Speaker 2: the School for Advanced International Studies where I studied, I'm
Speaker 2: surprised he was speaking there, but I was happy because
Speaker 2: he said, please, you know, we can't forget
Speaker 2: the fact that every single time there's a war, the
Speaker 2: us dollar is propped up. I mean, there's no concern
Speaker 2: in
Speaker 1: the stock market actually spikes whenever bombs are dropped.
Speaker 2: And I think this is the issue right where it
Speaker 2: hurts most, unfortunately, for some, it's not where they feel
Speaker 2: deep down inside, but where
Speaker 2: the pockets are. Right. So I think this is where
Speaker 2: we can really be more deliberate and consider, especially as
Speaker 2: we plan ahead next year or next month.
Speaker 1: How challenging is it for countries like us in the
Speaker 1: global South to maintain these strong stance, moral consistency while
Speaker 1: also relying on countries like America for F DS to
Speaker 1: prop up our economy.
Speaker 2: So, you know, it's interesting because I I'm reading this
Speaker 2: book by Kon Lee who is a South Korean economist
Speaker 2: in the, you know, he after Ha Chang about the
Speaker 2: same generation,
Speaker 2: the um the issue of middle income traps, right? How
Speaker 2: do you escape one? And he said that while research
Speaker 2: has shown and this includes, I think a research by
Speaker 2: IMF if I'm not mistaken, surprisingly that if you, if
Speaker 2: you take into account FDI itself is not, is not
Speaker 2: necessarily beneficial for every country receiving it.
Speaker 2: So it depends also the level of absorbing absorption, the
Speaker 2: level of how it actually empowers the local economy, the
Speaker 2: local stakeholders. So I think we got to be more mindful.
Speaker 2: It's great I think to be fair to Malaysia, you know,
Speaker 2: ma has been doing its homework, it's been really demanding
Speaker 2: that we get benefits
Speaker 2: and multiplier impact. But I believe that this is why
Speaker 2: when we talk about even carrying FDI the specter of
Speaker 2: the global South doesn't just come with a moral compass.
Speaker 2: Come in the form of bricks, they come in the
Speaker 2: form of a new development bank. And I think that's
Speaker 2: so important
Speaker 2: because it's concretize and the fact that Thailand is showcasing
Speaker 2: his interests is a good, it's a good beginning. Doctor
Speaker 2: Eric Lee was invited by Hasan in the American transport.
Speaker 2: What did he say? This is his words again, as
Speaker 2: you know, I'm sure others are listening to me today.
Speaker 2: Um He, he said,
Speaker 2: you know, we talk about the global North as if
Speaker 2: they represent the majority, but actually they do. And of course,
Speaker 2: you know, you know, I have studied in the US.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying at the end of the day, we
Speaker 2: have to be just, we have to be fair. And
Speaker 2: if this is an age where there is a sense
Speaker 2: of rejuvenation,
Speaker 2: the global South renaissance, why not? Because more the reason
Speaker 2: we want a safer world, we don't want a world where,
Speaker 2: you know, we can be at the mercy of those
Speaker 2: with colonialist mindsets, those who believe they are superior, those
Speaker 2: who believe they are exceptional in comparison to others. And
Speaker 2: I think that's the basic survival instinct even for us.
Speaker 2: So if you know, if we're open and you know,
Speaker 2: if you deal with this valley
Speaker 2: and the rules apply equally to everyone regardless of the
Speaker 2: color of your skin. So I think this is where
Speaker 2: you know it, it's a good lesson and I'm not
Speaker 2: talking just externally
Speaker 2: everything. And then the way I see it, it is
Speaker 2: a test for everyone. How can you do better? It's
Speaker 2: not just about others but how can you do better?
Speaker 1: Let's go for a very quick break on the show
Speaker 1: with me today is YB Nurul, Ia Anwar. She's the
Speaker 1: vice president of Kadan. She also former MP for Perma
Speaker 1: Tan Pao. We will continue this conversation after these messages
Speaker 1: on Beyond the ballot box. BFM 89.9
Speaker 1: because freedom matters. BFM 89.9.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Beyond the ballot box. I'm D Johan.
Speaker 1: And on the show with me today is Ya Anwar
Speaker 1: is the vice president of Kan and the former MP
Speaker 1: for Permatang Pao. This conversation is also available as a podcast.
Speaker 1: You can look up beyond the ballot box on the
Speaker 1: BFM app, Spotify or where we get your podcast from.
Speaker 1: So what the role I want to look a bit inwards.
Speaker 1: Um Firstly, I think from a political class perspective, I
Speaker 1: want to say that I'm very glad that our political
Speaker 1: class from past to KD A all the way to
Speaker 1: PSM and all of that, everyone on this particular issue,
Speaker 1: they are on the same page, everyone is in solidarity
Speaker 1: with Palestine. However, if we look at this, I find
Speaker 1: this quite interesting. The protest for the liberation of Palestinians
Speaker 1: taking place all over the world have been inspiring
Speaker 1: and in countries where the heads of states where the
Speaker 1: state is in support of the genocide, it has become,
Speaker 1: these protests have become a sort of a reinvigoration of
Speaker 1: progressive voices. It has brought progressive voices from unions to
Speaker 1: social democrats, Muslim democrats, even Marxists all sorts of things
Speaker 1: in a multi anti imperialist coalition.
Speaker 1: But in Malaysia, it feels like it's taking on slightly
Speaker 1: different shapes. Sometimes these, this issue is being weaponized by far, right,
Speaker 1: majoritarian forces to attack ethnic minorities or Jewish people as
Speaker 1: a whole. We've seen Muftis posting praises for Hitler on
Speaker 1: Twitter and saying
Speaker 1: he was right, Hitler was right to commit the holocaust.
Speaker 1: We see the ethnic Malays attacking the Non Malays for
Speaker 1: apparently not being pro Palestine enough or not boycotting enough
Speaker 1: despite good. When we go on the ground, you've been
Speaker 1: in protest, I've been in these rallies themselves. These marches
Speaker 1: are multi
Speaker 1: and at the same time, even among the Non Malays,
Speaker 1: they tend to say things like, oh why should, why
Speaker 1: should you even care about this cause? It is just
Speaker 1: a Muslim thing. You know, we are looking at this
Speaker 1: again through this racial and religious prism that has plagued
Speaker 1: this country for so long. What does this tell you
Speaker 1: about the level of polarization in Malaysia today?
Speaker 2: So I think we need to take stock of the
Speaker 2: polarization is not just something that Malaysia experiences, it's also
Speaker 2: something that has taken out, taken on a more global impact.
Speaker 2: There's even studies that have showcased the polarization between girls
Speaker 2: and boys,
Speaker 2: whether you know, in China, South Korea America, even even
Speaker 2: developed nations, we're talking about differences of world view, right?
Speaker 2: Differences in terms of educational qualification.
Speaker 2: So it's, it's concerning and I think we, we need
Speaker 2: to also equip ourselves and I quote Dr Yardi here
Speaker 2: because whenever he talks about Palestine, he reminds us all
Speaker 2: read up, you know, improve your knowledge on it because
Speaker 2: it's very challenging. Of course, is you're talking about tens
Speaker 2: of decades, right of history here. So certainly, you know
Speaker 2: whether Miko Pellet, whether I
Speaker 2: these are Jewish names, even John, the sheer who I
Speaker 2: referred to when I was doing my masters, I was
Speaker 2: so happy that he he, you know, he understood what
Speaker 2: ethnic cleansing meant, which to him was to be the
Speaker 2: detriment to Israel itself because it will not cleanse them
Speaker 2: of their, of Hamas. So I think this is where
Speaker 2: it's something that has to be embraced. It is a challenge.
Speaker 2: II I must state that at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: we go back to understanding, I see it more or
Speaker 2: so as a legacy, you know, we're talking about the
Speaker 2: divide and and conquer policies from our former colonial masters.
Speaker 2: So we're speaking about how we live in the different
Speaker 2: silos and this has of course, have to be broken
Speaker 2: and it was worsened through the pandemic
Speaker 2: because there's so much anxiety, so much economic insecurity. And
Speaker 2: of course, you see the different changes in government and
Speaker 2: you feel far more cynical about the powers that be
Speaker 2: or about person of authority. So in this climate where Voila,
Speaker 2: you have social media, people feel connected more quickly to
Speaker 2: kind of different
Speaker 2: access to news that are unverified.
Speaker 2: This is a perfect storm and you see this being
Speaker 2: translated to the protest, you see this through the discourse
Speaker 2: and it means we have to take stock and immediately
Speaker 2: kind of understand the midterm long term and immediate actions
Speaker 2: that we take that has to take place. I I
Speaker 2: firmly believe in terms of the education system. How do
Speaker 2: you make sure there's kind of seamless integration because we are,
Speaker 2: we are like the most stable multi nation, one of
Speaker 2: the most in the world. I mean, we're so blessed.
Speaker 2: I remember when I was, I went to China for
Speaker 2: that trip as head of land. And there's like, I'm
Speaker 2: bringing everyone from different states, from different racial tribes. And
Speaker 2: I feel my goodness, you know, this is really kind
Speaker 2: of our microcosm
Speaker 2: of the world, right? You know, but at the same time,
Speaker 2: I think what I, what I sense is you need
Speaker 2: to actively work on the content curriculum, on schools, on
Speaker 2: a different discourse in mosques along the different persons and
Speaker 2: leaders of influence and you also need to kind of
Speaker 2: nip certain statements in the bud. I actually you are
Speaker 2: the one who highlighted to me what the Mufti in act.
Speaker 2: I I I'm pretty,
Speaker 2: I mean, this is unacceptable, it's
Speaker 2: unacceptable.
Speaker 1: That is the concern, right? Because I think there is
Speaker 1: no denying that when we look at modern history, when
Speaker 1: comparing to a lot of other multi countries, we have
Speaker 1: done pretty well for that for ourselves. If we are
Speaker 1: being perfectly honest, like you,
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, there was May 13, but we handled broadly,
Speaker 1: you know, we've been moving without many conflicts and all
Speaker 1: these kinds of things, right? But the worry is that
Speaker 1: things are getting worse, the inter ethnic sort of polarization,
Speaker 1: regardless whether you're Malay or non Malay or anything, right?
Speaker 1: That people feel like the other side is the other,
Speaker 1: I think it's getting worse. But on top of that,
Speaker 1: there is also this rise of right wing ultra conservative
Speaker 1: majoritarianism backlash. We are seeing this in many other countries
Speaker 1: as well. You know, whether it is Modi in India,
Speaker 1: you have the Trump,
Speaker 1: we have the AFD in Germany, all these movements and
Speaker 1: even in Malaysia, people who are paying very close attention
Speaker 1: can see that it's more than just pass, this is
Speaker 1: an entire network. They have the media, they have penetrated
Speaker 1: religious schools, they have programs, they are making Blockbuster movies
Speaker 1: with racist undertones and revise history. So why is this happening.
Speaker 1: Why is this thriving today?
Speaker 2: Um You know, it's, it's something that keeps me up
Speaker 2: at night. So I of course I'm concerned, but I
Speaker 2: think one of the key driving reasons as to why
Speaker 2: they have g of followers is because that whole sense
Speaker 2: of economic ridden insecurity and anxiety. So that class divide again,
Speaker 2: class divide because when you feel that you're deprived
Speaker 2: that you are not enjoying parts of the economic growth
Speaker 2: that the country is experiencing. So I think that's why
Speaker 2: we talk about these extreme focus on poverty eradication, right?
Speaker 2: But it's not just poverty, it's about opportunities, right? So
Speaker 2: I feel that whether it's a gig economy and everyone
Speaker 2: knows it's a not just a precarious sector,
Speaker 2: you're not going to be paid much more in the
Speaker 2: next five years compared to your current income. So then
Speaker 2: the focus on TV factors in very, very crucially because
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, they have to be
Speaker 2: paid much better
Speaker 2: by through the upskilling courses they take place. And that's
Speaker 2: why education is for one thing, right? One managing the
Speaker 2: economy needs but the other bit and I wanted to
Speaker 2: actually highlight the trust school I visited in Papa, right? OK.
Speaker 2: So it's a collaboration between Ministry of Education and the cso's,
Speaker 2: it's been there for some time.
Speaker 2: And what I saw was you see when you start
Speaker 2: explaining the States in school, in terms of the things
Speaker 2: that you teach, why are you against Israel because you
Speaker 2: cannot be supportive of a rogue state, right? Because they've
Speaker 2: broken
Speaker 2: the the international law that's applicable to every state. So
Speaker 2: I think placing it in clear cut understandings of principles
Speaker 2: of how law should be applied rather than sentiments help.
Speaker 2: But by the same token,
Speaker 2: if you're not being heard across the channels, they are viewing,
Speaker 2: they are listening to they in trouble, right? So it's
Speaker 2: like we're always playing catch up. So I think these contents,
Speaker 2: whatever progressive content, middle ground content
Speaker 2: has to be made available on the different channels. So
Speaker 2: issues of regulation again is to keep online content safe.
Speaker 2: So you go back from education, then of course regulation
Speaker 2: which also allows for different progressive voices to emerge, right?
Speaker 2: Because I think at the end of the day, it
Speaker 2: will be diverse, there will be things that you might
Speaker 2: not like to hear,
Speaker 2: but it is not extreme, it is not asking and
Speaker 2: seeking for violence as a means, right to take action.
Speaker 2: So this is where we kind of have to be
Speaker 2: very sophisticated in looking at it. You know, as part
Speaker 2: of sir, I issued a statement to make sure we look,
Speaker 2: you know, we we were having a few bills whether
Speaker 2: it's the um looking into the Replacements with Tradition Act.
Speaker 2: But I think it's important for parliament
Speaker 2: and select committees to kind of take stock because it
Speaker 2: requires different levels of government to assist.
Speaker 1: I wanna get your thoughts on what we can do
Speaker 1: because on this inequality, right. In Malaysia it's because people
Speaker 1: are so siloed. I think we lack this empathy or
Speaker 1: putting ourselves in other people's shoes, right? Because you don't
Speaker 1: meet each other enough. Yeah, I think that's definitely one
Speaker 1: of it because when it comes to inequality sometimes we
Speaker 1: just tend to try and look at America and then
Speaker 1: copy and paste their sort of framework which I don't
Speaker 1: think it applies. Because in Malaysia
Speaker 1: after independence, most of capital holders, business elites were ethnic
Speaker 1: Chinese professionals were mostly ethnic Indians and Chinese. While the Malays, yes,
Speaker 1: they had the Aristocrats, feudal class, but there was no
Speaker 1: middle class, most were farmers and fishermen. That is one
Speaker 1: huge inequality, things have improved. The gap is still very pronounced.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, you have these other forms
Speaker 1: of anxieties. Inequalities like ethnic Indians face tremendous discrimination in
Speaker 1: the rental housing market.
Speaker 1: You know, and if you look at the Indian population
Speaker 1: in Malaysia, 7% Indian population, 25% of death in custody
Speaker 1: in prison, that's huge disproportionate representation. There there is that
Speaker 1: feeling that,
Speaker 1: you know, we are like the non Malays may feel
Speaker 1: that you know, there's political disenfranchisement, social disenfranchisement. When we
Speaker 1: look at the median retirement savings, we see that economic disenfranchisement,
Speaker 1: Malay the population, they are about at 8000 ringgit retirement saving,
Speaker 1: the median Indians, 14,000 Chinese 43,000 ringgit big inequalities, these
Speaker 1: inequalities are wrapping itself around racial lines. How do you
Speaker 1: suggest we get over this and bridge the gap?
Speaker 2: Earlier I mentioned about the gig economy, those who are
Speaker 2: working in the e healing sector and how crucial upscaling was.
Speaker 2: So the the the key word is actually mobility,
Speaker 2: career, mobility, social mobility, we understand that we're going to
Speaker 2: be beginning from different sort of benchmarks for different pay grades.
Speaker 2: But the point is there's mobility. So I think measuring
Speaker 2: and understanding that it also needs to include the stakeholders.
Speaker 2: If you talk about the Indian community, it's about understanding
Speaker 2: how is it that they feel this mobility can be
Speaker 2: achieved
Speaker 2: and you can't have a one size fits all. I
Speaker 2: agree completely taking America American model goodness gracious me, right.
Speaker 2: I think they showcase what what can happen when you
Speaker 2: have quite negligible safety nets. And in Malaysia, I think
Speaker 2: the whole drive, whether it is in social well being
Speaker 2: and research center conference to get the help between PF
Speaker 2: prof norma was the big week there.
Speaker 2: You allow for that level of support when a precarious
Speaker 2: situation hits you regardless of your race. Nonetheless, I think
Speaker 2: it really needs to be hone in further through the
Speaker 2: different upscaling opportunities accorded. And of course, for me, when
Speaker 2: we say that we're starting from different kind of benchmarks
Speaker 2: or or pay grades, then
Speaker 2: certain areas need to be focused on and given far
Speaker 2: more attention,
Speaker 2: not just the money, right? But it's like knowing where
Speaker 2: the money should go to.
Speaker 2: So I think this is the, the, the challenge for Malaysia,
Speaker 2: especially in an age where everyone feels insecure. You know,
Speaker 2: every single small thing is, is kind of blown out
Speaker 2: of proportion. And honestly, I think dialogue, but just a
Speaker 2: huge deal of patience
Speaker 2: would, would help push the, the issue.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's, it's something that I, I
Speaker 2: myself um find
Speaker 2: challenging but we in Kan, it was not easy as
Speaker 2: well because it was again, different races for the first
Speaker 2: time having meetings, it will always be multiracialism. But I
Speaker 2: think eventually, you know, the socialization and this is where
Speaker 2: you alluded to the socialization that has to take place
Speaker 2: either in schools, in universities is almost something you kind
Speaker 2: of have to program into.
Speaker 2: And this is a challenge because there are many pockets
Speaker 2: of homogeneous communities all over Malaysia. And I think it, it's,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't envy the government, but it is
Speaker 2: something that we have to kind of take on as
Speaker 2: one of the main
Speaker 2: challenges moving forward. Like every country you need to kind
Speaker 2: of know what's your comparative advantage, right? And I think
Speaker 2: for Malaysia, we got to get this bit stronger, strengthened,
Speaker 2: more cohesive in nature.
Speaker 1: Let's go for a very quick break on the show
Speaker 1: with me today is Yb Nurul Iza Anwar. She's the
Speaker 1: vice president of Kadan. She also former MP for Perma
Speaker 1: Tang Pao, we will continue this conversation after these messages
Speaker 1: on beyond the ballot box. BFM 89.9
Speaker 1: because freedom matters, BFM 89.9. Welcome back to Beyond the
Speaker 1: ballot box. I'm Du Johan. And on the show with
Speaker 1: me today is YBN Ia Anwar. She's the vice president
Speaker 1: of Kan and the former MP of Perma Pao. This
Speaker 1: conversation is also available as a podcast. You can look
Speaker 1: up beyond the ballot box on the BFM app, Spotify
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts from.
Speaker 1: So why I want to get your thoughts on something
Speaker 1: you said? I think in one of the PKR Congresses
Speaker 1: where you said something along the lines of the challenge
Speaker 1: now is translating years of social narratives and speeches into
Speaker 1: actual policies. And I think that is indeed the what
Speaker 1: you know the right
Speaker 1: is waiting for because there is no denying that whether
Speaker 1: it's by Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim members of Kan as
Speaker 1: a whole Harapan for 25 years. It was very pro
Speaker 1: maha speeches, you know, going after the Maaya and all
Speaker 1: these kinds of things, brilliant speeches really inspired a lot
Speaker 1: of people.
Speaker 1: So what are the challenges of translating all these social,
Speaker 1: socially progressive speeches, economically progressive speeches into actual concrete policies?
Speaker 2: I think one of the great things that has taken
Speaker 2: place through the many governments in power is the fact
Speaker 2: that every party has experienced what it's like behind the
Speaker 2: driving wheel, right. So you understand the challenges in government.
Speaker 2: I was a member of parliament for 15 years and
Speaker 2: I would say that even at the PAC, we would
Speaker 2: not know as much as we did unless you know,
Speaker 2: you
Speaker 2: behind driving seat. Um And so for our, our cabinet,
Speaker 2: you know, I do not envy them. I think it's
Speaker 2: extremely challenging because you have a far more reduced fiscal space.
Speaker 2: But it's important because everyone understands because every coalition in
Speaker 2: a way has this information at their fingertips. Now, the
Speaker 2: issue is, do you want to do the right thing?
Speaker 2: Do you want to be the responsible party, responsible stakeholder?
Speaker 2: And I think
Speaker 2: knowing and taking stock of everything and also managing expectations
Speaker 2: because the expectations is huge, it's huge. I mean, I
Speaker 2: I get it as well, right? And sometimes there are
Speaker 2: things that we are able to do immediately low hanging fruits,
Speaker 2: but it also challenges. So for me, it's great to be,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say a complete outsider. But at least I
Speaker 2: have a space where I can also engage with different
Speaker 2: sides
Speaker 2: from the civil society, from the different members, normal members
Speaker 2: who actually are similarly concerned. There are certain things that
Speaker 2: they want to prioritize. But I think the issue is
Speaker 2: communicating that the effort is made, right, that reforms, I mean,
Speaker 2: I my pet or I, the thing I love most
Speaker 2: is perhaps that focus on making sure
Speaker 2: we have so many fragmented social services. How do we
Speaker 2: make sure that it's become far more integrated but also
Speaker 2: helps cushion
Speaker 2: everybody through a robust, stronger and better safety net. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I think even the approach we also tackling corruption, right?
Speaker 2: But by the same token, you're also dealing with existing,
Speaker 2: that is your
Speaker 2: existing team. Right.
Speaker 1: Exactly. And these are some of the things that can
Speaker 1: come off as disappointing. Right? To I think many of
Speaker 1: Haran's supporters, you see people like an Ibrahim like Klan
Speaker 1: who for the longest time they have
Speaker 1: the abolition of sedition act, for example. Right. So Anwar
Speaker 1: Ibrahim has gone to prison. He fought alongside civil society
Speaker 1: for years. He was one person, one of the people,
Speaker 1: you know, when, when he was going to give a
Speaker 1: speech in University Malaya and they blocked the gate and
Speaker 1: they closed the gate and they locked it up. He
Speaker 1: alongside the students broke through that gate
Speaker 1: and gave the speech anyway. So people might ask what
Speaker 1: happened to that? An why brahim, what happened to that?
Speaker 1: Who was so resistant to power? Who was so brave
Speaker 1: in fighting power now seems to be part of this
Speaker 1: entrenched system where suddenly we cannot get rid of sedition act.
Speaker 1: Suddenly we need to protect specific interests. Suddenly we need
Speaker 1: to walk on egg shells.
Speaker 2: So I think it's good that I was experiencing some
Speaker 2: level of disappointment in 2018. I think the fact that
Speaker 2: the matter is when you have formed a government. It's
Speaker 2: important to understand that it is not an idealized sense, right?
Speaker 2: Um And there will be certain challenges you face. It
Speaker 2: will be um still a win I was still proud
Speaker 2: of in 2018. But again, there's the things that in
Speaker 2: the steps I took to make sure that we had
Speaker 2: not just level playing field, but at least a way
Speaker 2: to keep the executive in check through the PAC. Now
Speaker 2: moving forward today. Firstly, when I talked about we having
Speaker 2: the same team we have, of course, the same team
Speaker 2: of civil servants, the same different stakeholders who are, as
Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier, deeply polarized, it is extremely challenging management.
Speaker 2: But the way I also understand it is at least
Speaker 2: from my perspective, we need to move ahead and move
Speaker 2: forward and having a set of priorities helps in this matter, right?
Speaker 2: So if economy is a priority for sure, doesn't mean
Speaker 2: you need to sideline. But you must remember there's also
Speaker 2: space whereby as much as you want to protect and
Speaker 2: preserve
Speaker 2: local domestic and national security, you must allow voices to
Speaker 2: be heard and different stakeholders to at least feel that,
Speaker 2: you know, I can, I can speak up, I can
Speaker 2: represent my viewpoints and the things I care about. So
Speaker 2: his visit, I think one of the programs, the anu
Speaker 2: was good because at least there was space. I don't
Speaker 2: think in recent times you have um a space accorded
Speaker 2: where anyone can answer Prime Minister questions. Nonetheless, I mean,
Speaker 2: as someone who was there when University of Malaya speech
Speaker 2: was made
Speaker 2: for sure, I hope after we manage the economic reforms,
Speaker 2: we can turn to a key kind of specified more opening.
Speaker 2: I mean, I
Speaker 2: managed to to kind of prepare seven bills when I
Speaker 2: was as a private member bills when I was a
Speaker 2: member of parliament. So certainly some of them should be
Speaker 2: discussed thoroughly. I would say this though the level of
Speaker 2: vitriol that's been banded about online
Speaker 2: and within the media, the new media because traditional media
Speaker 2: has taken such a back seat. If you compare to
Speaker 2: the early days of the pharmacy
Speaker 2: is cause for concern. I'm not going to say that
Speaker 2: it's not like it's going to be very, very challenging,
Speaker 2: managing all of that. So finding the right balance by
Speaker 2: also making sure that no one falls under the Sedition Act.
Speaker 2: I mean, I was also being investigated before and to
Speaker 2: be fair, I think right now as much as we
Speaker 2: also understand the other concerns and for its utilization, I
Speaker 2: agree
Speaker 2: we do need to take stock but priorities have to
Speaker 2: be made. It was also 2018. So there were some
Speaker 2: lessons learned, right? Which one you prioritize? But again, it
Speaker 2: is a work in progress. So for me
Speaker 2: coming to this stage after 25 years, um it was
Speaker 2: not as I had imagined fully, but I certainly believe
Speaker 2: there's always cause to keep fighting, you know, and keep
Speaker 2: voicing out because we need to do our bit to
Speaker 2: remind and that's important
Speaker 1: earlier, you know, we talked a little bit about how
Speaker 1: the far right, they have an entire network in various areas.
Speaker 1: Why doesn't the progressive forces? One of it being Harapan does,
Speaker 1: why don't the progressive forces have that same kind of network?
Speaker 1: Because we are talking about, you know, obviously in a
Speaker 1: progressive fashion, right? We are talking about, you see, even
Speaker 1: when we look at Harapan supporters, Harapan supposed to represent
Speaker 1: this pro democracy, multi kind of thing. But there are
Speaker 1: many Harapan supporters who are also quite racist, who are,
Speaker 1: you know, they just it's they're voting for upon because
Speaker 1: they are N TB and not because they believe in
Speaker 1: a particular ideology.
Speaker 1: And why do you think like let's say PKR right
Speaker 1: has struggled to provide a strong cohesive, appealing narrative of
Speaker 1: inclusive Malaysia and also progressive Islam, right? After all, a
Speaker 1: party with liberal democrats, Muslim democrats, even Muslim socialists like
Speaker 1: Hassan Karim, right? So why hasn't that been appealing enough?
Speaker 2: But precisely the point? Right? I mean, I think there
Speaker 2: was a study with all that, of course, you get
Speaker 2: more internal dissent, you know, you can't have it both ways.
Speaker 2: One of the key reasons why certain parties and I
Speaker 2: should not name it here. They have an ability to
Speaker 2: kind of garner support is because they are seen as
Speaker 2: stable
Speaker 2: because they're seen as unified despite every party will go
Speaker 2: through internal dissent for sure, internal conflicts, for sure. Right.
Speaker 2: But by virtue of being diverse, of course, then you
Speaker 2: have democracy in action. So as much as you want
Speaker 2: to criticize, I sometimes in our party, we want the,
Speaker 2: the president to be more, you know, but
Speaker 2: so you can't have it both ways. I should, I'm
Speaker 2: sorry to tell you this. I think in 2018, I
Speaker 2: remember one study that struck me.
Speaker 2: Our supporters are far harsher and Harapan than the opposite coalition.
Speaker 2: They're more accepting. It's ok.
Speaker 1: But that's because of the level of standard that you
Speaker 1: set for yourself.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 1: And this is supposed to be har and hope it's
Speaker 1: open New Malaysia.
Speaker 2: But I think there's also a lesson there that it
Speaker 2: does take time. We're talking more than six decades here,
Speaker 2: you know. Yes, if you was up to me, I
Speaker 2: wanted everything yesterday.
Speaker 2: But then I realize of course, things do move at
Speaker 2: a glacial pace. It is not up to us completely.
Speaker 2: We're a coalition government, right in life. Of course, you
Speaker 2: make compromises is, is, is part of adulthood, unfortunately. Right.
Speaker 2: But do I do, I silence myself? No, I, I
Speaker 2: do what I can. But in a way that,
Speaker 2: you know, I feel could be beneficial, could be productive.
Speaker 2: I think we must also harness that kind of energy,
Speaker 2: excitement from our own supporters, from our members and also
Speaker 2: explain to them. I agree this bit. Yes, you need
Speaker 2: to take time to say, look, this is the plan
Speaker 2: and please bear with us and we are doing it.
Speaker 2: But I think
Speaker 2: part of the matter is also,
Speaker 2: it's just far more challenging when you deal with a
Speaker 2: far more organized extreme. Right. Right. Extremely organized, well, networked,
Speaker 2: well funded. But, hey, you know, you can't complain that
Speaker 2: that's life. You just have to just carry on and
Speaker 2: get organized and do better yourself. So that's what I'm
Speaker 2: looking at. And I think
Speaker 2: um it's good being on the outside because you can
Speaker 2: sort of see things a bit more differently. And I,
Speaker 2: you know, I have a lot of respect for my colleagues.
Speaker 2: It would be extremely challenging to, to kind of face
Speaker 2: and try to manage all the different problems all at
Speaker 2: once within your 1st and 2nd year. But I think
Speaker 2: internally we do need to communicate better.
Speaker 2: But if you talk about diversity, yeah, it's a good point.
Speaker 2: There's something that we are proud of. It's just at
Speaker 2: the end of the day, you do also want to
Speaker 2: make sure it's productive, the voices and the complaints I
Speaker 2: can vis a vis my party,
Speaker 2: right? You do it. We gotta carry on to the
Speaker 2: finishing line, right? And the finishing line is not necessarily
Speaker 2: this conversation, bro. The finishing line is like three more years,
Speaker 2: four more years in the next election. So please bear
Speaker 2: with me. But yeah, um
Speaker 2: nothing to be envious of, but that's what you get
Speaker 2: when you are elected, you're supposed to do a job.
Speaker 2: So I think it's a, it's a good lesson in
Speaker 2: just understanding and just keep on, keep on doing what
Speaker 2: you can
Speaker 1: be. No, Lisa, thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 2: Thank
Speaker 2: you for making it very difficult for me. But thank you.
Speaker 2: I was happy to answer.
Speaker 1: I've been speaking to Ibn Ia Anwar. She is the
Speaker 1: Vice president of Kadi Land and the former MP of
Speaker 1: Permatang Pao. I'm Rash Johan on beyond the ballot box.
Speaker 1: BFM 89.9
Speaker 1: you have been listening to a podcast from BFM 89.9
Speaker 1: the business station for more stories of the same kind.
Speaker 1: Download the BFM app.