Dorian Kail: When we arrived at the Eldoret Airport and Viola Cheptoo and
Dorian Kail: Sharon Lokedi and a whole dancing tribe and the Tirop's were
Dorian Kail: there to greet us, I was overwhelmed. I couldn't believe
Dorian Kail: that these people were right past baggage claim. There they
Dorian Kail: were grabbing our bags, putting them down, and we were
Dorian Kail: dancing with these people who we had never met before.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: I thought I understood what we were doing. I had no
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: idea the scale and the impact.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Hey, everybody, and welcome to Set The Pace, the official podcast
Rob Simmelkjaer: of New York Road Runners, presented by Peloton. I'm Rob
Rob Simmelkjaer: Simmelkjaer, the CEO of New York Road Runners. And we
Rob Simmelkjaer: don't have Becs with us this week as we are
Rob Simmelkjaer: doing a special episode from right here actually inside the
Rob Simmelkjaer: offices of New York Road Runners. As you know, if
Rob Simmelkjaer: you've been following me or New York Road Runners on
Rob Simmelkjaer: social media, you know that a group of New York
Rob Simmelkjaer: Road Runners leaders recently took the first ever official trip
Rob Simmelkjaer: of the organization to Kenya. And today we're going to
Rob Simmelkjaer: spend some time with some of my colleagues talking about
Rob Simmelkjaer: that trip, what we learned, and what we think it
Rob Simmelkjaer: means for the future of running, the future of New
Rob Simmelkjaer: York Road Runners. So we're very excited to do that
Rob Simmelkjaer: today. Of course, if you've ever watched the TCS New
Rob Simmelkjaer: York City Marathon or any major marathon, you know that
Rob Simmelkjaer: Kenyans are an absolute force in the sport. You see
Rob Simmelkjaer: Kenyan athletes winning year in and year out here in
Rob Simmelkjaer: New York or Boston and wherever you might go. Of
Rob Simmelkjaer: course, this past November, both the men's and women's champions
Rob Simmelkjaer: of the TCS New York City Marathon were from Kenya,
Rob Simmelkjaer: Benson Kipruto and Hellen Obiri. Also, I think for a
Rob Simmelkjaer: lot of fans, that's where the story ends. It's another
Rob Simmelkjaer: Kenyan winning a major marathon. And you watch that and you
Rob Simmelkjaer: celebrate that, and then maybe that's where you stop and
Rob Simmelkjaer: you go back to your training or your running or
Rob Simmelkjaer: whatever you might do. Well, part of what we all
Rob Simmelkjaer: did when we went to Kenya and what we want to spend
Rob Simmelkjaer: some time doing today is talk about how that is
Rob Simmelkjaer: not where the story stops. Actually, there's so much more
Rob Simmelkjaer: to tell about these athletes, the communities that they come
Rob Simmelkjaer: from, their families, their colleagues, the people who help get
Rob Simmelkjaer: them where they are, and then what it means for
Rob Simmelkjaer: them and their entire larger communities in Kenya when one
Rob Simmelkjaer: of them wins. That's a lot of what we spent
Rob Simmelkjaer: time doing when we are in Kenya. Kenya as a
Rob Simmelkjaer: country and as a running culture is really integral to the foundation
Rob Simmelkjaer: of this sport and the implications for each one of
Rob Simmelkjaer: them winning a major go far beyond the podium. It
Rob Simmelkjaer: can change their family life. It can change their communities.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And for some of the women, it can also put
Rob Simmelkjaer: them in some form of danger, which is one of
Rob Simmelkjaer: the things that we'll talk about today. When we were in
Rob Simmelkjaer: Kenya, we had a dinner with dozens of former New
Rob Simmelkjaer: York City Marathon champions. We also visited a children's hospital
Rob Simmelkjaer: where money to create it was actually raised, in large
Rob Simmelkjaer: part, through the New York City Marathon Charity Program. And
Rob Simmelkjaer: we spent time with an organization called Tirop's Angels, which
Rob Simmelkjaer: we'll talk about a lot today. That was founded in
Rob Simmelkjaer: honor of a former runner named Agnes Tirop, a woman
Rob Simmelkjaer: who was murdered in 2021 by her partner. And a
Rob Simmelkjaer: big part of the reason for our visit and what
Rob Simmelkjaer: we did while we were there was the issue of gender-
Rob Simmelkjaer: based violence in Kenya, which we'll talk about quite a
Rob Simmelkjaer: bit today. So before we get into this conversation, let
Rob Simmelkjaer: me introduce my colleagues to my right, Dorian Kail, who
Rob Simmelkjaer: works in our pro athletes group. Dorian was really one
Rob Simmelkjaer: of the visionaries behind us taking this trip in the
Rob Simmelkjaer: first place. She knows our pro athlete community very well
Rob Simmelkjaer: and understood some of these issues of gender- based violence
Rob Simmelkjaer: that affect a lot of the female runners from Kenya.
Rob Simmelkjaer: So Dorian, welcome to Set the Pace. You've been on before.
Dorian Kail: Thank you.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Once before. And then to her right is Erica Edwards-
Rob Simmelkjaer: O'Neal. She's our chief diversity officer and also very well
Rob Simmelkjaer: acquainted with these issues of what face Kenyan runners and
Rob Simmelkjaer: also issues that face women and runners all over the
Rob Simmelkjaer: world. So, looking forward to having this conversation with you
Rob Simmelkjaer: as well.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Absolutely. Happy to be here. Thank you.
Rob Simmelkjaer: All right. Now I'm not moderating this conversation because we're
Rob Simmelkjaer: going to hand the reins over to Matt Singer. Matt
Rob Simmelkjaer: is our head of content at New York Road Runners.
Rob Simmelkjaer: He's in charge of telling stories about not only New
Rob Simmelkjaer: York Road Runners, but our professional athletes throughout the year,
Rob Simmelkjaer: including the broadcast of the TCS New York City Marathon. So
Rob Simmelkjaer: we're going to hand the hosting reins over to Matt
Rob Simmelkjaer: to continue this conversation.
Matt Singer: Yeah. Thanks, Rob. And first, it was a huge honor
Matt Singer: to be a part of this first group that went
Matt Singer: over to Kenya as a part of this first official
Matt Singer: visit. And it's great to be on this side of
Matt Singer: the set, although a little reluctantly. I've been with you for
Matt Singer: 162 episodes now, so you drag me over to this
Matt Singer: side of the camera for the first time. But I
Matt Singer: think it's really important to continue to shine a light
Matt Singer: on everything that we saw and learned over in Kenya.
Matt Singer: And I take my role very seriously in being a
Matt Singer: big part in telling those stories. A lot of people,
Matt Singer: like you said, know the Kenyans that cross the finish
Matt Singer: line and they get to see that one moment, but
Matt Singer: there's a whole other world and a whole other set
Matt Singer: of stories on the other side of that finish line.
Matt Singer: So really excited to shine a light on that today.
Matt Singer: I want to start today with a little bit how
Matt Singer: this trip came to be. Dorian and I used to
Matt Singer: sit next to each other. I think they separated us because we
Matt Singer: spoke a little too much during the day, but one
Matt Singer: of the things we would talk about was the idea
Matt Singer: for this trip even back then. So, Dorian, can you
Matt Singer: talk us through a little bit about why it was
Matt Singer: so important to ideate and plan and execute this trip?
Dorian Kail: Yeah. Matt, we have been talking about it a long
Dorian Kail: time. And then Rob started and it was, I think,
Dorian Kail: the first spring you were here, you came up to
Dorian Kail: the professional athlete suite. We know all the athletes stay
Dorian Kail: in the hotel and we were sitting around that big
Dorian Kail: long table and you got to meet many of them.
Dorian Kail: Many of them were Kenyan and you just got to
Dorian Kail: know them. We were just chit- chatting, and I have
Dorian Kail: the lucky ... I mean, I have the privilege to get
Dorian Kail: to know all these athletes and I hear all kinds
Dorian Kail: of stories. But then you left and then I wanted
Dorian Kail: to know what you thought. And then I started to
Dorian Kail: tell you about some of the stories I had heard.
Dorian Kail: And we talked about Agnes Tirop and we talked about
Dorian Kail: that tragedy and how it affected so many of our
Dorian Kail: athletes that we bring in. The pro athletes who compete
Dorian Kail: at our races make a lot of money and they
Dorian Kail: go back to Kenya and they're targets of violence because
Dorian Kail: they have so much more than the people in their
Dorian Kail: community. And there are many people who want to take
Dorian Kail: advantage of them. And I didn't want to ignore the
Dorian Kail: fact that we're part of that problem. This is our
Dorian Kail: running community. And when I told you about what was
Dorian Kail: going on, you agreed with me that we need to
Dorian Kail: do something. And then time went on and athletes would
Dorian Kail: come back to our races and we'd talk to them
Dorian Kail: again. Then we learned about Tirop's Angels because Viola Cheptoo came
Dorian Kail: to one of our races and she was telling us
Dorian Kail: about her organization and how she wanted to build a
Dorian Kail: safe house. And it just became more and more apparent
Dorian Kail: that we needed to support. We needed to follow up.
Dorian Kail: We needed to find out what was going on there.
Dorian Kail: And then every time I think you walked by our
Dorian Kail: desk, I needed to talk about it. And we just
Dorian Kail: kept pushing and pushing. And then we had more and
Dorian Kail: more conversations with the stakeholders, more and more conversations with
Dorian Kail: the athletes, more and more conversations with the organizations. And
Dorian Kail: we put this trip together. And I'm so grateful we did.
Rob Simmelkjaer: There was also the Rebecca Cheptegei murder that took place during that
Rob Simmelkjaer: period as well, which shined another light on this. Rebecca
Rob Simmelkjaer: Cheptegei, another athlete, she was Ugandan, I believe, but was
Rob Simmelkjaer: murdered in Kenya by a partner as well.
Dorian Kail: Exactly. Right after she competed at the Paris Olympics, she
Dorian Kail: was 44th, two young children, and she was murdered by
Dorian Kail: her boyfriend in front of her kids. So tragic. So
Dorian Kail: we couldn't ignore what was going on. So that's when
Dorian Kail: we decided we needed to put this trip together.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: And we had the staff that were asking questions that were
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: clearly concerned and wanted to know that this was something
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: that was at the forefront of our minds, and at
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: least in conversation. Staff feels, loved the organization, loved the
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: runners, and wanted to know that we were committed to
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: doing something.
Matt Singer: Taking it from planning and the need to actually arriving,
Matt Singer: setting foot down in Kenya, this first time in Kenya
Matt Singer: for all of us, the four of us, can you
Matt Singer: tell us something that either took you... What was your
Matt Singer: first interaction or something you weren't necessarily prepared for?
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: The elevation. The second thing was the warmth. It's a
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: beautiful country, but the people were extraordinarily warm and welcoming.
Dorian Kail: So open. Everybody was so open. We were part of
Dorian Kail: their family everywhere we went.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I think for me, I was stunned at how excited
Rob Simmelkjaer: people were that we were there. I mean, I know
Rob Simmelkjaer: that running is a big deal in Kenya. They obviously
Rob Simmelkjaer: have an incredible culture, but I don't think I expected
Rob Simmelkjaer: there to be that much excitement that New York Road
Rob Simmelkjaer: Runners and that the people who run the TCS New
Rob Simmelkjaer: York City Marathon were there. And people were really excited
Rob Simmelkjaer: just to have an opportunity to meet with us. There
Rob Simmelkjaer: were people in the government. And I mean, even at
Rob Simmelkjaer: one point there was talk about the president of Kenya
Rob Simmelkjaer: trying to come see us. Right? I mean, it was
Rob Simmelkjaer: that big a deal that we were there in the
Rob Simmelkjaer: country, and that was incredible to see. The amount of
Rob Simmelkjaer: reverence that people in Kenya have for the New York
Rob Simmelkjaer: City Marathon, I think, really tells you a lot about
Rob Simmelkjaer: what we do means there, the impact of our organization,
Rob Simmelkjaer: and of course, just the love of running and the marathon.
Matt Singer: I think outside of New York on race day, there's
Matt Singer: nowhere else other than Kenya where we're that big of
Matt Singer: a deal where we go somewhere. Abraham was saying-
Rob Simmelkjaer: I'm not used to being a rockstar quite like that.
Matt Singer: Ibrahim Hussein who was the first Kenyan winner, first African
Matt Singer: winner of the New York City Marathon, he said it best.
Matt Singer: He said, " New York City Marathon here is Hollywood."
Dorian Kail: But we actually followed through. We said we were going
Dorian Kail: to come and we went, and that was a big
Dorian Kail: deal to so many people there.
Matt Singer: I think another thing that we all got to witness
Matt Singer: firsthand, we were all warned of this ahead of time
Matt Singer: was Kenya time. And I think from the very first
Matt Singer: moment where we got to the airport with a very, very
Matt Singer: warm, nice, but very long welcome, we were quickly introduced
Matt Singer: to what Kenya time meant.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Yeah. We had a local say to us, I see
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: your agenda and we were discussing the next day and
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: we were going to need to leave something early. And
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: this person giggled and said, " No, you're not." Right? You're
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: going to slow down and be present. That's really important
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: for this. This is a community and slowing down and
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: being present and maybe having a cup of tea and
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: a conversation. And so you don't know when that first
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: thing is going to end, so you can't plan the
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: next. So just be committed to being present and thin
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: out that agenda a bit. And so what really was
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: a beautiful change, we had a lot accomplished and the
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: folks of Kenya get a lot accomplished, but they also
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: make time to be present for one another. Being welcome
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: into each other's homes, sharing a meal, really a key
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: part of the culture. And that took some adjusting to, and then
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: I'd say to you that I absolutely, as we left, I
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: missed it, that notion of getting back to the hustle
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: and bustle.
Dorian Kail: It was hard to slow down the pace. And then
Dorian Kail: once we did-
Matt Singer: For New Yorkers.
Dorian Kail: Right. But once we did, it made so much sense.
Matt Singer: And I think I speak for all of us when
Matt Singer: I say this trip became so much more than we
Matt Singer: originally thought or planned. What moment for all of you
Matt Singer: was it where it hit like this is a bigger deal
Matt Singer: than what we had on paper for the agenda?
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: It was the hotel in Eldoret where a member of
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: the hotel staff realized that we were with New York
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Road Runners and began to jump up and down and say, "
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Finally, you all have come. We've heard so much about
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: you." And then I go to find Dorian with tears
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: on my eyes and I'm like, " There's a woman and
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: she's here." It was that excitement for our presence. And
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: that person was sharing with us, they knew about New
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: York Road Runners and the TCS New York City Marathon
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: because of their involvement with the hospital, with Shoe4Africa, and they
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: knew that we had been a key part. And so
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: our presence, that was the moment that I think I
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: was... Well, it is just etched in my mind.
Dorian Kail: There were so many moments and everybody laughed at me
Dorian Kail: because every day was better than the next. And I
Dorian Kail: had a permanent smile on my face because I knew
Dorian Kail: the minute we got there that it was the right
Dorian Kail: thing to do. And I don't think there was one
Dorian Kail: moment, but when we got... One of the many, when
Dorian Kail: we arrived at the Eldoret Airport and Viola Cheptoo and Sharon
Dorian Kail: Lokedi and a whole dancing tribe and the Tirop's were
Dorian Kail: there to greet us, I was overwhelmed. I couldn't believe
Dorian Kail: that these people were right past baggage claim. There they
Dorian Kail: were grabbing our bags, putting them down. And we were
Dorian Kail: dancing with these people who we had never met before,
Dorian Kail: and not the athletes-
Matt Singer: They surprised us with a welcome that the marathon champions
Matt Singer: get when they come home and land at Eldoret.
Dorian Kail: Right. Right. It was incredible. And again, it was just like
Dorian Kail: we were family and it felt right. Every moment was incredible.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I think that the first full day I was really there
Rob Simmelkjaer: when we were in Eldoret and we went to the
Rob Simmelkjaer: place that will hopefully be the future home of a
Rob Simmelkjaer: safe house that Tirop's Angels is hoping to build for women
Rob Simmelkjaer: who are victims of gender- based violence. And we get
Rob Simmelkjaer: there and it's an open field in the middle of
Rob Simmelkjaer: an area that was a good probably 45- minute drive from
Rob Simmelkjaer: our hotel in Eldoret, maybe an hour. And the entire
Rob Simmelkjaer: community had gathered there. I mean, I was not expecting
Rob Simmelkjaer: this. I was expecting maybe the folks who work at
Rob Simmelkjaer: Tirop's Angels and a couple other people, but the whole
Rob Simmelkjaer: community had come out and they had seating set up
Rob Simmelkjaer: and tents, and they were all there to welcome us
Rob Simmelkjaer: and just to show how much it mattered to them
Rob Simmelkjaer: that we were there to potentially support this project. Right?
Rob Simmelkjaer: So that was like, wow, this is really something. And
Rob Simmelkjaer: then I think for sure when we went to visit
Rob Simmelkjaer: the Shoe4Africa Children's Hospital, which was founded by a former
Rob Simmelkjaer: New York Road Runners board member, Toby Tanser, and for
Rob Simmelkjaer: many, many years was able to raise money through the
Rob Simmelkjaer: marathon charity program that many of our listeners are probably
Rob Simmelkjaer: a part of, raising money for some charity. And we
Rob Simmelkjaer: all think of that as, " Oh, it's such a great
Rob Simmelkjaer: thing. We raised money for all these great causes." But
Rob Simmelkjaer: to see the personification of that, to meet mothers and
Rob Simmelkjaer: fathers whose children were being treated there, who didn't have
Rob Simmelkjaer: anywhere else to go, who would not be able to
Rob Simmelkjaer: be there with their children when they were being treated
Rob Simmelkjaer: for whatever their illness was, to see that was really,
Rob Simmelkjaer: it just put in a very different perspective what we do.
Matt Singer: It's really special to see those dollars come off that
Matt Singer: meter on a GoFundMe page and as an entry method to the
Matt Singer: marathon and really see the meaning that those miles really can have. Yeah.
Matt Singer: Well, a big part of this trip, we'll talk a
Matt Singer: little bit more about Shoe4Africa Hospital and the work that
Matt Singer: Tirop's Angels is doing, but a big part of the
Matt Singer: trip was also getting to see where these world- class
Matt Singer: athletes are living and training and seeing this, it's not
Matt Singer: called the home of champions for Nothing, getting to see
Matt Singer: behind the curtain a little bit. And, Erica, one of
Matt Singer: the camps we got to see was the Global Sports
Matt Singer: Camp, which is also known as the house that Kipchoge built, it's
Matt Singer: where the greatest in the world gets to train and
Matt Singer: live. Can you tell us a little bit about getting
Matt Singer: that special behind- the- scene tour?
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: That was extraordinary. I think we could also call that
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: a mindfulness retreat. That's what it felt like. It was
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: lush and green and quiet. Every inch, there was intentionality
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: behind and there is intentionality behind the design from the
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: signs and messaging, simple, beautiful and powerful. I just remember
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: talking, that was another moment of I thought we were
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: moving slowly and we entered that space and it felt
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: like I could just sit. I wanted to just have
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: a seat and not necessarily have a conversation, but I
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: felt immense peace as I entered the space. And then
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: listening to Elliot was to continue to talk forever and
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: ever. That was really magnificent. And it was, of course, great
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: to see the space where these athletes are training. I
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: just was floored by it.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Kipchoge, he's like a philosopher. Yes, he's the greatest marathon
Rob Simmelkjaer: runner ever, but when you are in a setting like that
Rob Simmelkjaer: with him, where he's from, with people who are there
Rob Simmelkjaer: to train underneath him, you see what made him what
Rob Simmelkjaer: he is. It's not just his running talent, it's not
Rob Simmelkjaer: just his work ethic, but he's like the Dalai Lama
Rob Simmelkjaer: of running. He's got-
Dorian Kail: It's like this magic. There's something magical, right?
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yes. Yes. And he's got a true philosophy of life
Rob Simmelkjaer: and teamwork, and he doesn't believe that anybody does these
Rob Simmelkjaer: things alone. And I think that's what came really through
Rob Simmelkjaer: loud and clear to me is how much of a
Rob Simmelkjaer: team sport he sees running as, and the kind of
Rob Simmelkjaer: values, the team values that he's trying to create at
Rob Simmelkjaer: his camp where lots of runners are going and training
Rob Simmelkjaer: every day, and as Erica said, it's simple. The simplicity
Rob Simmelkjaer: is part of what seems to be his secret weapon,
Rob Simmelkjaer: is not to complicate things, not to have a lot
Rob Simmelkjaer: of distractions because running at that level requires full focus
Rob Simmelkjaer: and dedication of not only your body, but your mind.
Rob Simmelkjaer: So yes, I felt like it really was a retreat
Rob Simmelkjaer: in a way. And I'd love to go back there.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Yeah. Absolutely. I'll say jumping in again, Dorian, is that
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: one of the messages from the camp that they have
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: up on the boards is to check your laces. And
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: he reminded us that he wasn't talking about the shoe
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: laces. He saw that each participant should be checking on
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: their other team members and they should consider them the
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: laces. They keep things together. And that's just one small
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: example, but it was a joy- filled visit. We were
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: kind of giddy, I think there.
Dorian Kail: And each of the training camps we went to, they
Dorian Kail: would give us a tour and then we'd all sit
Dorian Kail: around and we would talk, and they gave everybody a
Dorian Kail: chance to speak and everybody was heard. And that was
Dorian Kail: really cool. I mean, that just doesn't happen. When I
Dorian Kail: have people over my house, I don't give them a
Dorian Kail: chance to talk.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Everybody speak. They went around the room. It could be
Rob Simmelkjaer: 30 people and everybody would have a chance to say something.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: And that required a mindset shift because you're checking your
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: time and you're like, " Well, gosh, we said this was
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: going to go until four." And then you learned to
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: put your shoulders down and how important it was to
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: make time for every voice. Right? Really, truly centering a
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: community atmosphere.
Matt Singer: Yeah. Yeah. One of the other camps we visited, which
Matt Singer: was 2 Running Club, which is Coach Claudio's club. That
Matt Singer: was another opportunity we got to hear from the full
Matt Singer: staff and the full team there. And we had some really
Matt Singer: important conversations there. Rob, can you talk us through-
Rob Simmelkjaer: Coach Claudio, who is a very accomplished coach, tremendous number
Rob Simmelkjaer: of successful athletes, including Benson Kipruto, our defending TCS New
Rob Simmelkjaer: York City Marathon Champion, trained out of that camp. And
Rob Simmelkjaer: again, we went in, we saw where they all lived.
Rob Simmelkjaer: This was like a dormitory that all the athletes live
Rob Simmelkjaer: there, right there on the campus, if you will, and
Rob Simmelkjaer: they eat there and spend their time there. We met
Rob Simmelkjaer: every athlete there. But as a part of that conversation
Rob Simmelkjaer: with these athletes, we had a pretty in depth conversation
Rob Simmelkjaer: about performance enhancing drugs and about the importance of maintaining
Rob Simmelkjaer: the integrity of the sport. There has been a complicated history
Rob Simmelkjaer: in Kenya and well beyond everywhere when it comes to
Rob Simmelkjaer: the use of performance enhancing drugs in marathon running and
Rob Simmelkjaer: endurance sports, in general. We all know that. We know
Rob Simmelkjaer: of the temptation that often exists for these athletes to
Rob Simmelkjaer: take the kinds of shortcuts that unfortunately some people choose
Rob Simmelkjaer: to take. We get news on a regular basis about
Rob Simmelkjaer: athletes, current athletes being suspended for use of performance enhancing
Rob Simmelkjaer: drugs. And it was very honest because we didn't pretend
Rob Simmelkjaer: like the temptation didn't exist. We told stories about past
Rob Simmelkjaer: incidents that have happened, including Coach Claudio and some of
Rob Simmelkjaer: the issues that he's had and his own coaching history with
Rob Simmelkjaer: athletes who ended up using things they shouldn't have been
Rob Simmelkjaer: using, and problems that had caused him in his career
Rob Simmelkjaer: and his life. Right? And so what was good about that
Rob Simmelkjaer: conversation is that it wasn't like us talking at them
Rob Simmelkjaer: and saying, " Hey, don't do these things." It was a
Rob Simmelkjaer: conversation that was going both ways. And I felt coming
Rob Simmelkjaer: out of there that there was a genuine understanding by
Rob Simmelkjaer: the coaches, by the athletes of why this is important,
Rob Simmelkjaer: why it's not just in our best interest, but in
Rob Simmelkjaer: their best interests and their family's best interest to do
Rob Simmelkjaer: things the right way. But I'm not under any illusions
Rob Simmelkjaer: that this is a solved problem, but we had that
Rob Simmelkjaer: conversation there. And then in a number of other places
Rob Simmelkjaer: as well, had a chance to meet with some of
Rob Simmelkjaer: the officials in Kenya who are in charge of the anti-
Rob Simmelkjaer: doping program they have there as well.
Matt Singer: Another thing that was really a big topic at Claudio's
Matt Singer: camp was also the importance of including not just women
Matt Singer: athletes, but women coaches. It was really great to see
Matt Singer: a familiar face to New York on the coaching staff
Matt Singer: there. Dorian, can you tell us a little bit about
Matt Singer: the atmosphere for the women at the camp?
Dorian Kail: Yeah, there were several women and first, they embraced us.
Dorian Kail: They were so happy we were there. They showed us
Dorian Kail: their rooms, but Prisca Jeptoo is Claudio's assistant coach and they
Dorian Kail: were just, again, very open, very honest. I also was
Dorian Kail: impressed with some of the athletes who spoke about doping
Dorian Kail: and how important it is to them that they all
Dorian Kail: stay clean and that they want to work on this
Dorian Kail: with us. We hadn't heard that before, but yes, the
Dorian Kail: women were thrilled that we were there. There's a good
Dorian Kail: number of them. Claudio is so proud of all the
Dorian Kail: women. And that wasn't something that he had in the
Dorian Kail: beginning of the team and now they have many more.
Dorian Kail: And I think there were at least 20 of them
Dorian Kail: and they're all doing quite well and training altogether and
Dorian Kail: treated very well there.
Matt Singer: Yeah, that was great to see. And yeah, Prisca, the 2013
Matt Singer: New York City Marathon champion, so great to see that
Matt Singer: she's moved on from champion herself and is going to
Matt Singer: build the next generation.
Dorian Kail: And now she's coaching. That's exactly right.
Matt Singer: Yeah. Dorian, we also got to go to the Kechei
Matt Singer: Center and see two of the runners we recently hosted since
Matt Singer: our trip to Kenya, Abel Kipchumba and Agnes Ngetich. What was
Matt Singer: it like getting to join two of those up and
Matt Singer: comers for a workout?
Dorian Kail: It was fun. Abel had a Fartlek training run and
Dorian Kail: he went on the street with his group and we
Dorian Kail: followed him actually in Agnes's car and his coach. And
Dorian Kail: we just followed them and watched them for about 30
Dorian Kail: minutes as they trained. And he was actually training for
Dorian Kail: our half marathon, which he was coming to just a
Dorian Kail: few weeks later, which was just a few weeks ago.
Dorian Kail: He was then our defending champion of the half. And
Dorian Kail: it was fun to see the roads and the group
Dorian Kail: and the camaraderie and what the coach was telling him.
Dorian Kail: And we just kind of watched him. And then Agnes,
Dorian Kail: of course, Agnes Ngetich, who is a rising star. She
Dorian Kail: actually has the world record in the 10K on the
Dorian Kail: road. She's 25 years old. She supports her family with
Dorian Kail: her running. She grew up in a family of eight
Dorian Kail: siblings, if I recall, single mom. And at a very
Dorian Kail: young age right now, she is supporting her family, sending
Dorian Kail: many of her siblings to school. It was really nice
Dorian Kail: getting to know her. She's a new athlete to us.
Dorian Kail: She just ran the half and it's amazing to see
Dorian Kail: where she's from. With this visit, we're able to see
Dorian Kail: where these athletes are from and meet some of their
Dorian Kail: family, see who they train with, where they train, how
Dorian Kail: they train, gives us a whole new understanding of the
Dorian Kail: athletes. And it really provides me a background that I
Dorian Kail: wouldn't have had otherwise. So I was really proud to
Dorian Kail: meet Agnes and to find out where she lives and
Dorian Kail: just get to know her.
Matt Singer: Yeah. It was really incredible to get to see the up and coming athletes,
Matt Singer: the current athletes, recent champions. But we also took a
Matt Singer: moment to get to catch up with some of the
Matt Singer: past champions in Kenya. Obviously, there's no shortage of them.
Matt Singer: And I want to talk a little bit about the
Matt Singer: champions dinner that Toby helped organize for us, where 17
Matt Singer: of the past champions came together in one room in
Matt Singer: Kenya and, again, made us feel so welcome and had
Matt Singer: the opportunity to hear directly from them about how the
Matt Singer: New York City Marathon impacted their lives and also their
Matt Singer: communities. Dorian, can you tell us a little bit about what they
Matt Singer: told us about the impact marathon has had on them?
Dorian Kail: So it was really great because each one of them
Dorian Kail: got up to talk about the impact that we've had
Dorian Kail: on their lives. And aside from providing homes and cows
Dorian Kail: and school for their kids or their siblings or their
Dorian Kail: extended family, some of them have formed organizations. Tegla Loroupe
Dorian Kail: talked about not only her foundation, her Peace Foundation, but
Dorian Kail: she has this school that was set up primarily for orphans.
Rob Simmelkjaer: For those who don't know, Tegla was the first African woman ever to win the New York City Marathon or any
Rob Simmelkjaer: major marathon.
Dorian Kail: Oh, sorry. That's right. First African woman. That's right. Sorry about that. You are absolutely right. Tegla Loroupe is
Dorian Kail: amazing. She won our marathon twice in 1994 and 1995. And as
Dorian Kail: Rob said, she was the first African woman to win a
Dorian Kail: major marathon. She took all of the resources provided to her
Dorian Kail: and has given back tenfold. She has this foundation, as
Dorian Kail: I mentioned, but she started the school and they serve
Dorian Kail: over 300 kids a year, half of them sleep there.
Dorian Kail: And it was started for orphans who lived in areas
Dorian Kail: where there was conflict. So it was a way for
Dorian Kail: them to have a safe place, to have food, school,
Dorian Kail: a safe place to sleep. And it's continued on. I
Dorian Kail: guess it's from ages 5 to 15. It's amazing. So
Dorian Kail: that was one of many stories. But so many of
Dorian Kail: those athletes just praised us because their lives have changed
Dorian Kail: because of us and they have changed their communities because
Dorian Kail: of what they've accomplished.
Matt Singer: Yeah. We'd be remiss not to mention that the dinner
Matt Singer: was also hosted at the resort of Ibrahim Hussein, we
Matt Singer: mentioned before, who before Tegla was the first man or
Matt Singer: woman to win a major marathon.
Dorian Kail: And it was his resort. And we had just seen
Dorian Kail: a few days earlier, a cross- country championship on that resort.
Matt Singer: Rob and Erica, I'll start with you, Rob, what are
Matt Singer: some other key takeaways that you learned or relearned while
Matt Singer: getting to sit with those 17 past champions?
Rob Simmelkjaer: I mean, first of all, just the fact that you
Rob Simmelkjaer: can get 17 former New York City Marathon champions to
Rob Simmelkjaer: show up at a dinner, they're all within a couple
Rob Simmelkjaer: of hours drive of where we were in Eldoret, Kenya.
Rob Simmelkjaer: That tells you a lot about what it means. But
Rob Simmelkjaer: I think that the fact that it was, maybe this
Rob Simmelkjaer: wasn't a surprise, but it was the pinnacle for all
Rob Simmelkjaer: of them. It was a life defining moment for every
Rob Simmelkjaer: single one of them. And it wasn't just that day,
Rob Simmelkjaer: it wasn't just the money they won or the recognition
Rob Simmelkjaer: or the fame, but they were different people when they
Rob Simmelkjaer: came back to Kenya. They were seen differently. They had
Rob Simmelkjaer: opportunities they didn't have before. It's just a life- changing
Rob Simmelkjaer: event. You're a rockstar in Kenya when you've won the
Rob Simmelkjaer: New York City Marathon. And in the States, we got
Rob Simmelkjaer: a lot of sports in this country. There's basketball and
Rob Simmelkjaer: baseball and football, and the marathon winner can walk down
Rob Simmelkjaer: Fifth Avenue the next day and not probably be recognized,
Rob Simmelkjaer: but that is not true. If you win the New
Rob Simmelkjaer: York City Marathon or another major marathon and you come
Rob Simmelkjaer: back to Eldoret or Iten or whatever it is, you're
Rob Simmelkjaer: a rockstar.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: I'd say what stands out for me from the dinner
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: was, I don't know if it was Tegla who said
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: it, is that we were the first to gather them.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: They had never all been gathered in the same place.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: And watching them celebrate each other and love on each
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: other and talk to each other and reminisce and seeing
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: the first connect to the most recent, that was extraordinarily
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: special. And they also are people who express that appreciation,
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: gratitude, and respect for one another.
Matt Singer: Rob, can you take a little bit of a deeper
Matt Singer: dive into what Shoe4Africa is and the contribution that New
Matt Singer: York City Marathon has had to the organization?
Rob Simmelkjaer: So Shoe4Africa is a nonprofit organization based in Kenya, founded
Rob Simmelkjaer: by, as I mentioned earlier, Toby Tanser, a former New York Road Runner
Rob Simmelkjaer: board member. My understanding is it started out really actually
Rob Simmelkjaer: focused on shoes. They were actually raising money to give
Rob Simmelkjaer: shoes to kids to run in Africa. But over time,
Rob Simmelkjaer: it morphed into something very different. They started building children's
Rob Simmelkjaer: hospitals and schools as well to benefit children in Kenya.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And the children's hospital that we went to, which was
Rob Simmelkjaer: called Shoe4Africa Hospital, they had an entire operation there with kids
Rob Simmelkjaer: being treated there. And what was special is the parents
Rob Simmelkjaer: could be with them. It wasn't just a place where
Rob Simmelkjaer: the kid would go and the parents wouldn't see them. The
Rob Simmelkjaer: parents could live there, stay there alongside their kids as
Rob Simmelkjaer: these kids were being treated. And that was something that
Rob Simmelkjaer: was life changing for them. And then there's nothing like
Rob Simmelkjaer: this anywhere near where they were. I think it was
Rob Simmelkjaer: the only hospital of its kind, certainly in that part
Rob Simmelkjaer: of Kenya, maybe all of Kenya. And so when you're
Rob Simmelkjaer: there and you meet people impacted by something like that,
Rob Simmelkjaer: it just affects you. Not only that, but then later
Rob Simmelkjaer: that same day, we went to an afterschool program that
Rob Simmelkjaer: same organization funds. And it was just a place where
Rob Simmelkjaer: kids could go either before school to get a meal
Rob Simmelkjaer: before going to school because a lot of them didn't
Rob Simmelkjaer: have access to healthy breakfast before going to school. So
Rob Simmelkjaer: they'd get oatmeal before going to school, or they could
Rob Simmelkjaer: come after. And they had just like a fun run
Rob Simmelkjaer: for these kids. I think it was like a two
Rob Simmelkjaer: kilometer fun run for kids to come after school that
Rob Simmelkjaer: day. And I'm thinking, " Oh, yeah, sure, maybe a few
Rob Simmelkjaer: dozen kids will come." 900 kids showed up after school
Rob Simmelkjaer: to run this fun run. And they each got three
Rob Simmelkjaer: books when they finished. That was the prize that they
Rob Simmelkjaer: got. And I mean, we have kids races every day
Rob Simmelkjaer: here, not every day, but every week on a regular
Rob Simmelkjaer: basis. And just to have 900 kids show up after
Rob Simmelkjaer: school one random day to run for three books, I
Rob Simmelkjaer: did not expect to see something like that. So that
Rob Simmelkjaer: was incredible. And the spirit and the joy that these
Rob Simmelkjaer: kids had for running for the community that was created
Rob Simmelkjaer: there, and just what Toby has created, again, in large
Rob Simmelkjaer: part through funding in our marathon, it really blew my mind.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: It so far exceeded my expectations. I understood that we'd
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: helped with this hospital. I thought I understood what we
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: were doing. I had no idea the scale and the
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: impact. And I do think as we arrived on the
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: property, not even the pictures did it justice. And so
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: there was a moment of just standing to take it
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: in, but also understanding, I don't know if we said
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: this, being reminded that these families are being cared for
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: at no cost and that New York Road Runners as a
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: part of making that happen was so far beyond anything
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: I really expected. A separate burn unit and it was
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: just serving so many people. And then also going back
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: to the hotel, when I was in the hotel, we
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: met a group of women from South Africa who were
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: with, I believe, Operation Smile, who were doing surgeries that
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: we get at the hospital and they stopped us and said, "
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Oh, my goodness, everyone has been talking about New York
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Road Runners is coming. Finally, they're coming to see what
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: they've helped build." And beyond meeting the children and the
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: parents and hearing their stories and seeing that it is a
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: place where despite the illness, they center joy. They create
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: always every day a space for play and joy. The
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: care teams that are caring for the children and the
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: families, I'm going to be honest, I owe Toby an
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: apology because I was like, " It's great," but it's something
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: else about being there and seeing it. I am forever
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: changed. I really am eager to go back personally to volunteer.
Matt Singer: Yeah. I mean, it's kind of funny when Operation Smile
Matt Singer: is excited that we're there. It's like, you're the ones
Matt Singer: doing the free surgery. We have lollipops, but it really
Matt Singer: puts it into perspective. And we mentioned Shoe4Africa was built
Matt Singer: in large part to the money that was raised by
Matt Singer: the charity runners for the team, over 4 million over
Matt Singer: their time as a charity partner of ours. We announced
Matt Singer: a pretty lofty goal for our charity program this year.
Matt Singer: Rob, I want to hear a little bit about that
Matt Singer: goal and also, how does seeing the work in person
Matt Singer: change your perspective on the importance of that goal?
Rob Simmelkjaer: So this year, as hopefully everybody knows by now is
Rob Simmelkjaer: the 50th anniversary of the Five Borough New York City
Rob Simmelkjaer: Marathon. And we thought here, what are some ways that
Rob Simmelkjaer: we can highlight this anniversary, but also highlight the impact
Rob Simmelkjaer: that the marathon has? And so we set a goal
Rob Simmelkjaer: this year of, for the first time ever, raising $ 100
Rob Simmelkjaer: million for charities through the charity program of the marathon.
Rob Simmelkjaer: So we increased how many entries went to charity this
Rob Simmelkjaer: year and we've launched that. And we've got now hundreds
Rob Simmelkjaer: and hundreds of charities out there with bibs into the
Rob Simmelkjaer: marathon and lots of runners. I'm sure many people watching
Rob Simmelkjaer: or listening to this are out there raising money for
Rob Simmelkjaer: one of these fantastic causes. So it's a big part
Rob Simmelkjaer: of what the marathon's about. I think to your question,
Rob Simmelkjaer: one thing that coming off of this trip to Kenya,
Rob Simmelkjaer: I want to do more of, and this podcast and other
Rob Simmelkjaer: things that we do in the content space can be
Rob Simmelkjaer: a big part of this, Matt, going to give a
Rob Simmelkjaer: little, here we go, here comes your work assignment-
Matt Singer: My next year assignment.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Exactly. I don't think we tell those stories enough. And
Rob Simmelkjaer: again, it's very easy to fall back on how much
Rob Simmelkjaer: was raised and the money and the dollars. And that's all
Rob Simmelkjaer: great and it's all important, but numbers just don't come
Rob Simmelkjaer: close to telling the story of that aspect of our
Rob Simmelkjaer: impact. And as an organization, we have an impact statement,
Rob Simmelkjaer: our mission to create healthier lives and stronger communities through
Rob Simmelkjaer: the transformative power of running. Well, obviously running itself is
Rob Simmelkjaer: the focus and the core of what we do as
Rob Simmelkjaer: an organization, but when people raise money for organizations like
Rob Simmelkjaer: Shoe4Africa or whatever it might be, maybe it's Memorial Sloan
Rob Simmelkjaer: Kettering through Fred's team, maybe it's the Leukemia Society, maybe
Rob Simmelkjaer: it's any number of social services or educational or whatever
Rob Simmelkjaer: kinds of organizations are part of our charity program, which
Rob Simmelkjaer: is just about every charitable organization type that you can
Rob Simmelkjaer: think of, that's part of creating healthier lives and stronger
Rob Simmelkjaer: communities through running. And we can do a better job,
Rob Simmelkjaer: I think, of helping people understand that because we've all
Rob Simmelkjaer: seen, especially in the days after the marathon drawing, when
Rob Simmelkjaer: people don't get into the marathon and they're disappointed, or
Rob Simmelkjaer: maybe they find out that the time they ran wasn't
Rob Simmelkjaer: fast enough to get in when they thought it would
Rob Simmelkjaer: be. And we see people saying, " Well, gosh, if it
Rob Simmelkjaer: weren't for all these charity runners, I would've gotten in."
Rob Simmelkjaer: Right? And when you see what's actually happening and the
Rob Simmelkjaer: impact that this charity program is really having, no one
Rob Simmelkjaer: who saw that would ever say something like that again.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And so I think the more we can do to
Rob Simmelkjaer: tell those stories, hopefully people will understand. I think most
Rob Simmelkjaer: people do, but everyone will understand why it's so important
Rob Simmelkjaer: to support this charity program and to really celebrate the
Rob Simmelkjaer: runners who devote their marathon entry and their time and their
Rob Simmelkjaer: effort to raising money for these causes through running the marathon.
Matt Singer: Some of those runners will still say it, but hopefully
Matt Singer: they feel a little guiltier about saying it.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Fair.
Matt Singer: Speaking of impact, again, one of the big driving forces
Matt Singer: to this trip was... And, Eric, I think you did
Matt Singer: a really good job of setting what our role on
Matt Singer: this trip was, was to listen and learn specifically about
Matt Singer: the issues that Kenyan women are facing over there. So
Matt Singer: I do want to pivot a little bit for the
Matt Singer: rest of the show to talk about that larger issue
Matt Singer: that we spent a good amount of the trip focusing
Matt Singer: on. And, Erica, before we even took off from Nairobi
Matt Singer: to Eldoret, you had met with a friend of a
Matt Singer: friend, Dr. Faith, who helped lay the landscape of what
Matt Singer: we were about to witness firsthand. She talked about the
Matt Singer: judicial system. Can you tell us a little bit about
Matt Singer: what we learned and what she told us?
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Yeah. She was extraordinarily helpful. And we had also expressed
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: to Dr. Faith that we weren't looking to parachute in.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: We didn't come with answers, but it was truly about
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: listening and learning and supporting, one, the folks who were
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: already on the ground with solutions and advocacy. And she
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: gave, I think, great insight, reminding us that it is
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: a complex situation and problem, not just there in Kenya,
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: but all over the world, this notion of gender- based
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: violence often comes with shame. And then we also talked
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: specifically around cultural barriers, getting over shame, the educational piece,
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: and understanding that recent changes even in the judicial system
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: that I had not understood that it had been at some
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: point really challenging for a woman or a person to
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: get a divorce. It had previously taken a very long
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: time. It required kind of open testimony and just a
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: really complex process. And that was something that none of
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: us had really known or discussed. And so she gave
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: a great overview to the challenges that there was not
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: one simple solution, but that we needed to go in
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: and really hear from folks what their individual obstacles and
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: barriers were. And it would be important that we think
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: about this on an individual level and also as a
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: systemic situation. I think that was really helpful.
Matt Singer: Yeah. And Rob, I think a lot of people might
Matt Singer: think that the elite woman runners, because of their success, maybe
Matt Singer: they're immune to this, but it's actually the opposite. Can
Matt Singer: you tell us a little bit about the impact that
Matt Singer: the climate for women in Kenya has on women in the sport?
Rob Simmelkjaer: One of the stories that we heard when we were there,
Rob Simmelkjaer: which really impacted me was stories about camps that young
Rob Simmelkjaer: girls are beginning to train at. And when a girl
Rob Simmelkjaer: is identified early on as a good runner, it's fast,
Rob Simmelkjaer: what starts to happen in a lot of those cases,
Rob Simmelkjaer: which is people start to see them as, to some
Rob Simmelkjaer: people, less well- intentioned people, start to see them as
Rob Simmelkjaer: opportunities. There are stories of girls being targeted for whatever
Rob Simmelkjaer: it may be, friendship, romantic relationships by folks who see
Rob Simmelkjaer: them as opportunities for financial advancement, because they know that
Rob Simmelkjaer: if this girl grows into a champion, there will be
Rob Simmelkjaer: money that comes with that. And so there now is
Rob Simmelkjaer: a part in a situation like that, part of the
Rob Simmelkjaer: process of raising a female champion runner is protecting them
Rob Simmelkjaer: from people who are essentially predatory, looking to take advantage
Rob Simmelkjaer: of them. So in a situation like that, just because
Rob Simmelkjaer: you've gone on and become a professional runner and had
Rob Simmelkjaer: financial success and you have prize money and sponsorship, you
Rob Simmelkjaer: may be caught up already in a situation where you're
Rob Simmelkjaer: in a relationship that is not in your best interest.
Rob Simmelkjaer: You may not have independent financial wherewithal. You may not
Rob Simmelkjaer: have your own bank account. You may not even get
Rob Simmelkjaer: money paid to you by your sponsor or by the
Rob Simmelkjaer: race that you just won. That money may go to
Rob Simmelkjaer: a husband or a boyfriend first before you even see
Rob Simmelkjaer: it. So creating that level of financial independence for these
Rob Simmelkjaer: women is a part of that. And that's where the running
Rob Simmelkjaer: element of this really does come in. And to your point
Rob Simmelkjaer: earlier, Dorian, about the role we have to play, of
Rob Simmelkjaer: course, we want the best for all of our runners,
Rob Simmelkjaer: but we and the other major marathons have to at
Rob Simmelkjaer: least start taking into account the circumstances that some of
Rob Simmelkjaer: these women may be coming from when they come to
Rob Simmelkjaer: run one of our races.
Dorian Kail: Well, and that's why we really felt to support the
Dorian Kail: organization like Tirop's Angels who is educating these people, is
Dorian Kail: teaching them financial literacy, teaching them skills that they can
Dorian Kail: support themselves so that then we can feel good about
Dorian Kail: paying these women when they run our races and we
Dorian Kail: know that they're going to be safe.
Matt Singer: Yeah. Dorian, tell us a little bit more about Tirop's
Matt Singer: Angels and especially Viola. A lot of our listeners might
Matt Singer: know Viola Cheptoo as a 2021 New York City Marathon
Matt Singer: runner up and her recent sixth place finish in Tokyo. But
Matt Singer: tell us a little bit more about Viola as the person and
Matt Singer: her dual role that she's taken on.
Dorian Kail: Viola's an amazing athlete, like you just said, and her
Dorian Kail: very good friend, Agnes Tirop, was just 25 when she
Dorian Kail: was killed. Agnes was an amazing athlete. She was a
Dorian Kail: star in her own right. She had two world championship
Dorian Kail: medals. She had just broken the world record in the 10K
Dorian Kail: and she was killed by her husband and she was
Dorian Kail: stabbed to death. And she was embarrassed to tell her
Dorian Kail: friends that she had been abused. And Viola was one
Dorian Kail: of her good friends, one of her training partners, and
Dorian Kail: she started with a group of women, Tirop's Angels to
Dorian Kail: help combat gender- based violence, to help support these women,
Dorian Kail: to make them feel comfortable talking about it, to giving
Dorian Kail: them a safe space. And Viola trains really hard as
Dorian Kail: a professional athlete. She just did really well in Tokyo,
Dorian Kail: broke her own personal record in the marathon just a
Dorian Kail: few weeks ago, and she's also chairing this organization and
Dorian Kail: trying to make a difference. And as Rob pointed out,
Dorian Kail: they're trying to build a safe house. That's when they
Dorian Kail: showed us the land. They're working really hard to help
Dorian Kail: women in the community to educate men and boys that
Dorian Kail: this isn't okay. They're working with government officials, they're working
Dorian Kail: with organizations like ours, and I think we can help
Dorian Kail: give them a voice. And she's just a remarkable woman,
Dorian Kail: just a true friend to Road Runners now.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And while we were there in Kenya visiting with her
Rob Simmelkjaer: and her team, this was weeks before the Tokyo marathon,
Rob Simmelkjaer: I was actually getting concerned. I was like, " Viola, you're
Rob Simmelkjaer: spending a lot of time with us while we're here
Rob Simmelkjaer: visiting your organization. Shouldn't you be training? I'm worried that
Rob Simmelkjaer: you're not going to be ready for the Tokyo marathon."
Rob Simmelkjaer: Well, she was ready because she ran a personal record
Rob Simmelkjaer: in Tokyo, personal best-
Dorian Kail: Exactly. But what's amazing about Viola is that she'll train
Dorian Kail: and then in the evening she'll take calls from people,
Dorian Kail: or she's told me that she's been home and she'll
Dorian Kail: have people come to her house if they don't feel
Dorian Kail: safe. She is a giver. And I'm so proud of
Dorian Kail: her because she gives so much to so many people.
Dorian Kail: Yes. So we were worried about her at her own race.
Matt Singer: I think that was one of the most impressive things.
Matt Singer: Obviously, we talk about runners who balanced work- life and
Matt Singer: training all the time, but this work that she's taken
Matt Singer: on herself. No one's asked her to do this. She's
Matt Singer: taken it on herself. And it is 24/ 7. She's always on call.
Matt Singer: We saw her taking calls from survivors in between meetings
Matt Singer: and in between training. And we actually got the chance
Matt Singer: to hear directly with some of the survivors that Viola and
Matt Singer: her team have supported. Erica, can you tell us a
Matt Singer: little bit about the experience to sit in that room
Matt Singer: at the Tirop's Angels office and hear directly from the survivors and the
Matt Singer: impact that had?
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Yeah. Some of the stories were just simply heartbreaking, but what
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: I focus on is the resiliency in that room. Women who had
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: not just survived with Viola and her team, her wonderful
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: team around her, not just survive, but they were thriving.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: And what I saw was holding and supporting each other.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: We won't go into those stories, but we saw really
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: trauma and survivors at several different age groups. And just,
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: again, what I choose to take from that was the
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: resiliency and that the gratitude that they had for the
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: work that Tirop's Angels was doing really was, I think,
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: the true impact for me.
Matt Singer: Yeah. And the community behind Viola, that just resonated throughout
Matt Singer: the entire trip. Everywhere we went, it was so amazing
Matt Singer: to see the community uplifting her because it's not a
Matt Singer: soft subject to have over there in a male- dominated
Matt Singer: community when you're trying to uplift those women.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: I think that's important to say there were and are a
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: lot of men who were and are supporting the efforts.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: And so my own biases may have said I didn't
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: expect to see that, but it was really beautiful to
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: see the men there doing the ceremonies, celebrating what Tirop's
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Angels is doing and also supporting and investing in.
Dorian Kail: There was a group of men called the Boda-boda, and
Dorian Kail: they are the men who drive the motorcycles that are
Dorian Kail: like the taxis there. And they paraded us into where
Dorian Kail: the Tirop's Angels office was located, but they were a
Dorian Kail: big part of when Agnes Tirop was found. It was
Dorian Kail: one of the Boda- boda men who found her. And they've been
Dorian Kail: a big part of Tirop's Angels in helping the organization
Dorian Kail: train men and boys. So I think it's a good
Dorian Kail: point to bring up that there are men who are
Dorian Kail: supporting that organization.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Who are absolutely modeling what it looks like to care
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: and respect women, and also how just brilliant of Viola
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: to see that important piece of the puzzle to ensure
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: that men are modeling and educating. And I know those
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: folks say they provide education during rides. They ask people
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: if they're familiar with Tirop's Angels. They take every opportunity
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: during their regular course of business to talk about the
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: importance of reeducating folks around gender- based violence.
Matt Singer: I think one moment where we really got to see
Matt Singer: full community come together, men, women, elected officials, the Boda-boda
Matt Singer: group, some of the dance groups, coaches, agents was the
Matt Singer: shareholder meeting that Viola planned. Rob, can you tell us
Matt Singer: a little bit about that meeting and what was shared,
Matt Singer: what was discussed, and who was in the room?
Rob Simmelkjaer: So Viola Cheptoo and her husband, who's a huge supporter of
Rob Simmelkjaer: her speaking of men who support the cause, he's an
Rob Simmelkjaer: incredible person who's really supportive of all the work she's
Rob Simmelkjaer: doing. They gathered people who have been donors to Tirop's
Rob Simmelkjaer: Angels, local government officials, people from the running community, runners,
Rob Simmelkjaer: agents, coaches, race organizers, all kinds of stakeholders in that
Rob Simmelkjaer: community all gathered together to talk about Tier Ops angels,
Rob Simmelkjaer: talk about the organization's mission and purpose, give an update
Rob Simmelkjaer: on where they are, the plans for the safe house,
Rob Simmelkjaer: their needs for funding. I spoke there as well to
Rob Simmelkjaer: just talk about why we as New York Road Runners
Rob Simmelkjaer: were there and how we hope to be able to
Rob Simmelkjaer: help them in the future. So it was impressive to
Rob Simmelkjaer: see the breadth of the support that that organization has
Rob Simmelkjaer: in right there in Eldoret, which is really the heart
Rob Simmelkjaer: of the running community in Kenya. And it definitely gave
Rob Simmelkjaer: me a lot of optimism that this can continue to
Rob Simmelkjaer: grow as a movement and that there's a broad enough
Rob Simmelkjaer: support for really making change on what is a really complex
Rob Simmelkjaer: societal issue.
Matt Singer: Yeah. And I think that's an important message coming out of
Matt Singer: this trip and something that we reiterated to staff when
Matt Singer: we spoke to them at a recent town hall, is
Matt Singer: this wasn't just a trip to Kenya. We were here
Matt Singer: to listen and learn, but next step is to determine
Matt Singer: and take action. Erica, Dorian, can you walk us through
Matt Singer: what's next for us on our partnership with Viola and Tirop's Angels?
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Our goal, we are looking to support their application to
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: be a charity partner, and really right now we are
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: in conversations with them to figure out just what it
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: is they need. So we're not going in with some
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: prepackaged solutions, but our first hope is that they will
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: complete their paperwork and application to successfully become a charity
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: partner. And we think that's first step, Dorian.
Dorian Kail: Yeah. Absolutely. And help tell their story like we're doing
Dorian Kail: now because the more people who know about it, maybe
Dorian Kail: the more people can reach out and support and provide
Dorian Kail: their assistance.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And being a part of the charity program, when I
Rob Simmelkjaer: was there, one thing that you realize again is, all
Rob Simmelkjaer: right, we talk about raising $ 100 million for charities. Just
Rob Simmelkjaer: take a teeny, tiny fraction of that. If an organization
Rob Simmelkjaer: like that were to have 10 bibs in the marathon,
Rob Simmelkjaer: let's say, and raise, I don't know, $ 25, 000, the
Rob Simmelkjaer: distance that money like that goes in a place like
Rob Simmelkjaer: that is so much greater than what you might think
Rob Simmelkjaer: it would do and the impact that it would make here.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I mean, we all remember going out to dinner in
Rob Simmelkjaer: Kenya, in Eldoret or wherever we were going and we'd have a
Rob Simmelkjaer: whole group of us going out to dinner and the
Rob Simmelkjaer: bill would come and it would be like $ 40. The
Rob Simmelkjaer: dollar goes a really long way in a place like
Rob Simmelkjaer: that. So we're really hopeful that whatever we're able to
Rob Simmelkjaer: do for them can make a really big impact on
Rob Simmelkjaer: what they're doing as an organization.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: And sustained growth, right? So we're looking to ensure that
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: they are helped to ensure that they are set up
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: for sustained growth and success. So that's the other part of our conversation.
Matt Singer: All right, Rob, before I throw it back to you
Matt Singer: and I go to that side of the set again,
Matt Singer: I want to hear from the three of you, what's
Matt Singer: something that you maybe didn't know before the trip that
Matt Singer: you learned while we were over there that you want
Matt Singer: our listeners to know as well?
Rob Simmelkjaer: I think that just, I don't know, the passion that
Rob Simmelkjaer: I think exists there for running. And it's more than
Rob Simmelkjaer: just a form of exercise there. It's more than what
Rob Simmelkjaer: we sometimes refer to it as free therapy. A lot of our
Rob Simmelkjaer: runners talk about running as that for them, but it's
Rob Simmelkjaer: a lifestyle and it's really just fundamental for a lot
Rob Simmelkjaer: of them in terms of their existence, their aspirations. The
Rob Simmelkjaer: culture of running there is just something that's very special.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And I think everyone with a passion for running, I
Rob Simmelkjaer: would recommend anybody who ever has a chance to go
Rob Simmelkjaer: over there and see what it's like. Be in Eldoret
Rob Simmelkjaer: or be in any other town that's got a lot of runners
Rob Simmelkjaer: who come from and just sit there and watch there's
Rob Simmelkjaer: this path on the side of the road and you
Rob Simmelkjaer: see these unbelievably fast people. You don't know who they
Rob Simmelkjaer: are. I mean, each of them could be a top
Rob Simmelkjaer: 20 in the world runner. You don't always know, but
Rob Simmelkjaer: they're just flying at 5, 000 feet of altitude. And you
Rob Simmelkjaer: realize that it's something that really is ingrained in the
Rob Simmelkjaer: culture there.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: I'd say pivoting a bit, what I did not realize
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: was that sustainability is a way of life, not a
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: nice to have. I was surprised by repurposed shoes and
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: finding notebooks that were recycled. What was it? Papaya, banana
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: leaf. That was beautiful to me. And we saw a
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: lot of social enterprises. So that's one.
Dorian Kail: I guess, really, I can't believe the impact we've had
Dorian Kail: over there. Really, everywhere we went, you could see the
Dorian Kail: impact we've had. And it is remarkable, really. And I
Dorian Kail: think that's why we were greeted with open arms, because
Dorian Kail: we've had such an impact over there. And I hope
Dorian Kail: we can go back again because there's so much more
Dorian Kail: to do and see. And anyway, I guess it's the
Dorian Kail: impact more than anything.
Matt Singer: Great. Well, thank all three of you for letting me moderate this panel. And, Rob,
Matt Singer: until the next time I'm dragged on set, back to you.
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Rob Simmelkjaer: Well, that does it for another episode of Set the
Rob Simmelkjaer: Pace. I want to thank our guest today, New York
Rob Simmelkjaer: Runners Chief Diversity Officer, Erica Edwards- O'Neal, and New York
Rob Simmelkjaer: Runners Director of Professional Athletes, Dorian Kail, as well as
Rob Simmelkjaer: our moderator today and the guy who's behind all these
Rob Simmelkjaer: podcasts, our head of content, Matt Singer. Hope you enjoyed
Rob Simmelkjaer: this episode. If you want to learn more about our
Rob Simmelkjaer: trip to Kenya, please check out our social feeds on
Rob Simmelkjaer: Instagram, Facebook. We've put a lot of effort into telling
Rob Simmelkjaer: the story while we were there. We also have a
Rob Simmelkjaer: great blog post on nyrr. org where you can learn
Rob Simmelkjaer: more about it. You can also, by the way, visit
Rob Simmelkjaer: Tirop's Angels and follow them on Instagram as well. They
Rob Simmelkjaer: do a great job of telling the stories of everything
Rob Simmelkjaer: they're doing as well. Thanks for joining us. Remember, if
Rob Simmelkjaer: you like the show, please rate it, subscribe, and we'll see
Rob Simmelkjaer: you next week. Enjoy the miles.