Mary Wittenberg: I never intended to become a lawyer. You know the
Mary Wittenberg: risk of sometimes you get in a race that's not
Mary Wittenberg: actually the race you want to win, and you're in
Mary Wittenberg: it, and all of a sudden it's 10 years later.
Mary Wittenberg: I'm like, " Whoa." They're shaking my hand the day I
Mary Wittenberg: make partner. I'm having an existential crisis. Tears are streaming
Mary Wittenberg: and everybody's saying, " Oh, she's so happy. She made it." And
Mary Wittenberg: I'm thinking, " No. What? This was not my goal. I
Mary Wittenberg: want to work in sports."
Rob Simmelkjaer: Hey, everybody, and welcome to Set the Pace, the official
Rob Simmelkjaer: podcast of New York Road Runners presented by Peloton. I'm
Rob Simmelkjaer: your host, Rob Simmelkjaer, the CEO of New York Road
Rob Simmelkjaer: Runners, and with me is not only my co- host,
Rob Simmelkjaer: not only Peloton instructor, but Napa Valley Trail Marathon Champion
Rob Simmelkjaer: of 2026, Becs Gentry. Becs, congratulations!
Becs Gentry: Hi! Thank you. Wait. My prize purse.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Let's show it. Let's show it. Her prize purse. For those who
Rob Simmelkjaer: are listening and not watching, her prize purse is a purse.
Becs Gentry: A chicken.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah, it is an actual purse with a-
Becs Gentry: It's a winner, winner, chicken dinner purse.
Rob Simmelkjaer: A purse in shape of a chicken. I love it.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Brilliant and lovely. And congratulations.
Becs Gentry: Thank you. Thank you.
Rob Simmelkjaer: So we didn't talk much about the fact that you
Rob Simmelkjaer: were doing this. I know you wanted to kind of
Rob Simmelkjaer: keep it on the DL a little bit. And so
Rob Simmelkjaer: you go out to Napa Valley, you run the ... This was
Rob Simmelkjaer: your first trail marathon?
Becs Gentry: In 10 years.
Rob Simmelkjaer: In 10 years?
Becs Gentry: Yeah.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And you win and you win by a lot, by
Rob Simmelkjaer: the way, like 20 minutes. Congratulations. Tell us about this race.
Becs Gentry: Thank you. Yeah, I kept it on the down low
Becs Gentry: because many reasons. I live in a world where I
Becs Gentry: think when I tell people what I'm doing publicly, it
Becs Gentry: can get blown up into something a lot bigger than
Becs Gentry: it is to me, or at least it can feel
Becs Gentry: like it's becoming something bigger than I need it to
Becs Gentry: be. And I don't take that external stress and pressure
Becs Gentry: very well. So I've decided to keep most of my
Becs Gentry: races to myself moving forward. So if I don't do
Becs Gentry: well, it's only me I'm going to be disappointing.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah, yeah. I get it.
Becs Gentry: And I know I don't disappoint my family and my close friends
Becs Gentry: and my daughter, et cetera. So it just takes the
Becs Gentry: stress levels down a minute. So yes, I've been training
Becs Gentry: my butt off for this. This was a kind of training run
Becs Gentry: in itself in a weird way for other stuff that
Becs Gentry: I have coming up in the remainder of the year, but
Becs Gentry: it was awesome to be back on the trails. And
Becs Gentry: it was a solo trip. Austin and Tallulah stayed here
Becs Gentry: in New York. And I took the weekend before my
Becs Gentry: 40th birthday to spend a bit of time doing the
Becs Gentry: things I love and just relaxing. And you don't have
Becs Gentry: to be a parent to understand this, but when you're
Becs Gentry: needed by a lot of people, be it at work,
Becs Gentry: professionally, or socially, or yes, if you are a parent
Becs Gentry: as well on top of that, it's just sometimes nice
Becs Gentry: to go away by yourself and be on your own
Becs Gentry: clock and do things that really fill your cup up
Becs Gentry: so you come back feeling like you can give everything
Becs Gentry: to everybody else for another period of time. So it
Becs Gentry: was a lot of fun. Rob, we're recording this on
Becs Gentry: Tuesday. The race was on Saturday. I'm getting more and
Becs Gentry: more sore by the day. It's ridiculous.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I love it when the sworn is increases. I think
Rob Simmelkjaer: the Tuesday is usually the peak-
Becs Gentry: It's normally two days, so I was like ... Yesterday, I was like-
Rob Simmelkjaer: ... although you ran on Saturday, so it's day three. Yeah.
Becs Gentry: Yeah. Monday, I was like, " Monday should have been the worst
Becs Gentry: day." And it was pretty bad yesterday. And I got a
Becs Gentry: run in before I had a 11- hour travel day back
Becs Gentry: from Napa. But this morning, it wasn't worse, but it
Becs Gentry: was the same. I was like, " Come on." So I'm just attributing
Becs Gentry: that to a long travel day yesterday, a lot of
Becs Gentry: stagnating in my seat. So I'm going to try and
Becs Gentry: be more active. I tried to run again this morning and
Becs Gentry: it was 20 minutes of looking like Bambi on ice,
Becs Gentry: but it's fine. I moved, the blood is pumping the
Becs Gentry: lactic acid hopefully out of my system, and we'll get
Becs Gentry: back to work.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Was this your first marathon since the Great World Race
Rob Simmelkjaer: or had there been another one?
Becs Gentry: Yeah.
Rob Simmelkjaer: It was, right?
Becs Gentry: Mm- hmm.
Rob Simmelkjaer: So how did that feel? I mean, after doing seven
Rob Simmelkjaer: in seven days to get back ready to run that
Rob Simmelkjaer: distance, what did it feel like?
Becs Gentry: I mean, it's so different, road racing to trail racing.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Of course, yeah.
Becs Gentry: I was thinking about that and it was very, very difficult
Becs Gentry: for me to pull comparison because I feel when I'm
Becs Gentry: doing road miles, they drag a lot longer than doing
Becs Gentry: trail miles because of the technicality, the variation in pace, the
Becs Gentry: variation of your heart rate, breathing, all of these things
Becs Gentry: that seem to pass the time quicker, easier, however you want
Becs Gentry: to coin it. And for me, training for this has
Becs Gentry: been really fun. Normally, I don't go into Central Park
Becs Gentry: and do multiple loops of Central Park because of the hills.
Becs Gentry: You may run one or two, but I've been doing
Becs Gentry: it a lot and it's been really fun to add
Becs Gentry: in those hills and feel that fatigue. And then even
Becs Gentry: getting onto some trails has been good, but nothing compared
Becs Gentry: me to this. And I promised myself. It was four
Becs Gentry: loops of the same grueling course, and I said on
Becs Gentry: the first loop, I was like, " All right." I was
Becs Gentry: by myself from the start and I just said, " You got to find something
Becs Gentry: new, not just a body pain, something new in nature
Becs Gentry: on every loop to keep yourself occupied." And that worked
Becs Gentry: really, really well. And it did seem to pass. It
Becs Gentry: was 40 kilometers in total, so just shy of the
Becs Gentry: actual marathon distance, but just under 5, 000 feet of
Becs Gentry: elevation we climbed-
Rob Simmelkjaer: Jeez.
Becs Gentry: ... which was pretty gnarly.
Rob Simmelkjaer: 5,000 feet. That's bananas.
Becs Gentry: Yeah. Somebody said that's halfway up Everest. I was like, "
Becs Gentry: No, I don't think that's right."
Rob Simmelkjaer: Not quite. No.
Becs Gentry: No.
Rob Simmelkjaer: But still, that's a lot. That's a lot.
Becs Gentry: Yeah. It's like-
Rob Simmelkjaer: That's like sea level to Denver, Colorado. I mean, 5,
Rob Simmelkjaer: 000 feet is nuts in one run.
Becs Gentry: No, it wasn't easy. And then on the third loop,
Becs Gentry: I happened to see the sign that was like, " Rattlesnakes are
Becs Gentry: in the area." I was like, " Oh my God. What
Becs Gentry: now?" I'm English. I don't know how to deal with those.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I don't think too many Americans want to deal with those
Rob Simmelkjaer: either. Well, incredible accomplishment. Proud of you.
Becs Gentry: Thank you. Thank you.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Good luck with the recovery. I'm sure you'll be great
Rob Simmelkjaer: and back on the tread before you know it. But
Rob Simmelkjaer: by the way, the most impressive accomplishment, it might have
Rob Simmelkjaer: been actually getting out to California and back-
Becs Gentry: Yeah. Oh, God.
Rob Simmelkjaer: ... given what's going on with air travel these days.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I can only imagine what that was like.
Becs Gentry: Yeah. Honestly, I will be unlike every other scaremonger on
Becs Gentry: the internet, I had absolutely zero problem.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Wow. Brilliant, brilliant.
Becs Gentry: There was no lines at any TSA. I'm very lucky to have TSA
Becs Gentry: and CLEAR, which I think a lot of people do
Becs Gentry: now because credit cards do offer great deals on those
Becs Gentry: things. And I walked through both ways. I literally walked
Becs Gentry: through as normal, if not even smoother. One flight was
Becs Gentry: early in the morning and one flight was at lunchtime.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Wow.
Becs Gentry: So I can't tell you, but I have another flight
Becs Gentry: on Friday, so I'll tell you then if that one
Becs Gentry: went well.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Clearly this was meant to be. Clearly this was meant to
Rob Simmelkjaer: be for you. So congratulations. Incredible.
Becs Gentry: Thank you.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Well, speaking of legendary running figures, coming up on Set the
Rob Simmelkjaer: Pace, New York Road Runner's legend, not just a great
Rob Simmelkjaer: runner, but a former CEO and race director here at
Rob Simmelkjaer: New York Road Runners, Mary Wittenberg, who also just entered
Rob Simmelkjaer: the Running USA Hall of Fame last month. She will
Rob Simmelkjaer: join us to talk about how she helped change women's
Rob Simmelkjaer: professional marathoning, and of course, New York Road Runners. So
Rob Simmelkjaer: Mary, coming up in just a second.
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Rob Simmelkjaer: Our guest today was a champion of the 1987 Marine Corps
Rob Simmelkjaer: Marathon, and from there, she eventually went on to lead
Rob Simmelkjaer: New York Road Runners. Mary Wittenberg guided NYRR and the
Rob Simmelkjaer: New York City Marathon through a decade of explosive growth.
Rob Simmelkjaer: She was also in the room for a pivotal decision
Rob Simmelkjaer: in 2002 giving elite women their own front- of- the-
Rob Simmelkjaer: race start so the competition and the cameras could finally
Rob Simmelkjaer: follow the women's race on its own terms. Of course,
Rob Simmelkjaer: if you ask Mary, she'll tell you that it was
Rob Simmelkjaer: a team decision, not just hers, but she certainly played
Rob Simmelkjaer: a big role in making it happen. And it is
Rob Simmelkjaer: great to have my predecessor, one of them, Mary Wittenberg,
Rob Simmelkjaer: back with us on Set the Pace. Hey, Mary, how
Rob Simmelkjaer: are you?
Mary Wittenberg: Hey, Rob. Thanks so much for having me. Hey, Becs.
Becs Gentry: Hi. Thank you for being here. We are so honored
Becs Gentry: to have you here and so excited to have this conversation.
Mary Wittenberg: Well, I have to start with lots to congratulate both of you
Mary Wittenberg: on. Rob, that New York City Half, I now think
Mary Wittenberg: it's the prettiest urban marathon in the world and so
Mary Wittenberg: much great energy and vibes, so well done to you. And Becs,
Mary Wittenberg: winning outright your first trail run in ages is really remarkable.
Becs Gentry: Thank you.
Mary Wittenberg: So you guys are crushing it.
Becs Gentry: Yeah, we're just a dream team over here getting things done.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I'll let her do the running. Yeah, she does the
Rob Simmelkjaer: running, I'll do the other stuff.
Becs Gentry: I'll do the running. You do the running of the show. There we are.
Mary Wittenberg: Yeah. Well, you're pretty good at that too.
Rob Simmelkjaer: That works fine. That works just fine for me. Absolutely. By
Rob Simmelkjaer: the way, Mary, congratulations on being inducted into the Running USA Hall of Fame.
Becs Gentry: Hall of Fame.
Rob Simmelkjaer: A very exciting honor for you and well deserved for
Rob Simmelkjaer: someone who's lived their life, a lot of their life
Rob Simmelkjaer: in this sport, in this space. What did it mean
Rob Simmelkjaer: for you to be honored at Running USA, which for
Rob Simmelkjaer: those who don't know is kind of the industry trade
Rob Simmelkjaer: group of the running industry? And Mary was honored there just
Rob Simmelkjaer: recently last month.
Mary Wittenberg: Well, thanks so much. I've got to say, I was super
Mary Wittenberg: honored to receive that award on behalf of so many
Mary Wittenberg: New York Road Runner members and teammates over the years
Mary Wittenberg: because that's how we accept these awards. They're not about
Mary Wittenberg: us as individuals, but about the teams we've worked with
Mary Wittenberg: over the years. So, that meant a lot. What was
Mary Wittenberg: extraordinary and makes me well up is Ted, our dear
Mary Wittenberg: Ted Metellus, flew in to present this award. And I've
Mary Wittenberg: got to say, I learned something. If I ever present
Mary Wittenberg: someone else with an award, I'm going to go back
Mary Wittenberg: to what Ted did. Guys, he was ... I didn't even
Mary Wittenberg: know all that about my life. First, he's so busy
Mary Wittenberg: as it is. He made the time to come in
Mary Wittenberg: and then was so thoughtful. It meant so much to
Mary Wittenberg: me. So, of course, a big thanks to Running USA
Mary Wittenberg: and for recognizing us as an organization and me as
Mary Wittenberg: a leader within our team, but to have Ted do
Mary Wittenberg: that just meant so much and reminds us what this
Mary Wittenberg: is all about. When we get to put on these
Mary Wittenberg: events together and help build community in running, it's the same
Mary Wittenberg: for us. It's about the people. And I was able
Mary Wittenberg: to work with Ted in his earliest days in the
Mary Wittenberg: 2000s, actually, early 2000s, and we always wanted to recruit
Mary Wittenberg: him back and to see him. And Rob, you leading
Mary Wittenberg: the way with your incredible team just means so much.
Mary Wittenberg: I'm so cheering all of you on. And to have him
Mary Wittenberg: make the time to be there and make the real
Mary Wittenberg: effort as he did just meant so much. So, thank you.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Aw.
Becs Gentry: Well, well deserved. You're an icon. You have been for a long
Becs Gentry: time. You continue to be inspiring to all of us.
Becs Gentry: And yes, Ted has a way with knowledge and words.
Becs Gentry: The way he expresses his knowledge of, whether it's actual
Becs Gentry: history of the sport or people, is such a skill.
Becs Gentry: It's not many people can do it the way Ted
Becs Gentry: Metellus does. It really is incredible. So, I want to
Becs Gentry: watch that back. If we can find that anywhere, please
Becs Gentry: can someone send that my way so I can have a
Becs Gentry: good cry? All right. Mary, let's roll it back, back,
Becs Gentry: back, back to when you first came to New York
Becs Gentry: City and when you first joined the New York Road
Becs Gentry: Runners club team. What was the running scene like back then?
Mary Wittenberg: It's wild to think back. First, I'll tell you what
Mary Wittenberg: we had at New York Road Runners because of Ted
Mary Wittenberg: Corbitt and Fred and Kathrine Switzer and all those, Nina
Mary Wittenberg: Kuscsik who came before us. We already had the five-
Mary Wittenberg: borough marathon on so much of the course that's the
Mary Wittenberg: same, including the Verrazzano. We already had a half- marathon in
Mary Wittenberg: every borough. There was 1,000 or 2, 000 people in it, but we
Mary Wittenberg: had some degree of a half. We already had the
Mary Wittenberg: Pride Run. We already had the Mini. So we had
Mary Wittenberg: this incredible foundation as an organization, but we also had,
Mary Wittenberg: as Rob's heard me say, it was a bit of
Mary Wittenberg: an organization in mourning in the late '90s because Fred
Mary Wittenberg: had just passed away. And the running scene was very
Mary Wittenberg: different. I remember being struck by how the top runners were
Mary Wittenberg: in their 40s. Really interesting, right? Where were the 20- year-
Mary Wittenberg: olds? And definitely Fred had brought in the concept of
Mary Wittenberg: all paces and a race for every pace. But I've
Mary Wittenberg: got to say, everything felt like a race. So a
Mary Wittenberg: race is a different level of appeal than a run
Mary Wittenberg: and an event, and the chance to really build these
Mary Wittenberg: as events was so clear. And again, it was always
Mary Wittenberg: early days. So many ideas I thought, " Oh, we thought
Mary Wittenberg: of this idea." I look back, I'm like, " Well, Fred
Mary Wittenberg: was already ... Someone else was already talking about it, the
Mary Wittenberg: generations before." But it was clear that, one, we had
Mary Wittenberg: to elevate the logistics and the basics of races again,
Mary Wittenberg: and then really the opportunity was to make them more
Mary Wittenberg: events. So we had about 1, 000 people, which again was
Mary Wittenberg: big relative to some other events in most of the
Mary Wittenberg: weekly races. Again, I think it was close to 2, 000
Mary Wittenberg: in the borough halves. They used to all be halves
Mary Wittenberg: at the time too, actually. Know how we have the
Mary Wittenberg: Queens 10K now and the Bronx 10- miler and the New
Mary Wittenberg: York City Half. We had one charity at the New
Mary Wittenberg: York City Marathon, Fred's team. Obviously, Memorial Sloan Kettering, we
Mary Wittenberg: had five kids in a running program. We had a lot
Mary Wittenberg: of energy and sort of so much opportunity in front
Mary Wittenberg: of us. Much more male, not nearly as diverse, and
Mary Wittenberg: kind of more of a serious feel, even though we
Mary Wittenberg: had the sense of a race for every pace. So
Mary Wittenberg: there was a lot of opportunity, and when times are
Mary Wittenberg: tough ... And New York had kind of fallen behind Chicago
Mary Wittenberg: and London at the time with the marathon when my
Mary Wittenberg: first marathon, two weeks in, the head of J. P.
Mary Wittenberg: Morgan Chase Marketing grabbed me by the wrist and said, "
Mary Wittenberg: Get to London and Chicago because you guys are falling
Mary Wittenberg: behind. And by the way, we're leaving as your primary
Mary Wittenberg: sponsor." So what's good about joining at moments like that
Mary Wittenberg: is people were aligned with, " We need to find a
Mary Wittenberg: way to get more people running and we need to
Mary Wittenberg: elevate our game a bit." So we were very lucky
Mary Wittenberg: as a generation to try to build American distance running
Mary Wittenberg: back, to really ... Rock 'n' Roll had already started the
Mary Wittenberg: charity programs, so that opportunity was becoming clear. London had
Mary Wittenberg: already been doing the same through their marathon. So you
Mary Wittenberg: could see what wasn't there, and so we had a lot
Mary Wittenberg: of opportunity to just try to get more people moving
Mary Wittenberg: and get our team excited about it again.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. Mary, we mentioned your personal running history and your
Rob Simmelkjaer: win back in that Marine Corps Marathon in 1987. Did
Rob Simmelkjaer: you think of yourself as an elite runner? Where was
Rob Simmelkjaer: your mindset in terms of your own running in that
Rob Simmelkjaer: late '80s and '90s? How focused were you on your own results
Rob Simmelkjaer: versus where you end up going, which is a leader
Rob Simmelkjaer: in the industry?
Mary Wittenberg: Not at all on my own running, and I'll tell
Mary Wittenberg: you why. I grew up in Buffalo, New York, the
Mary Wittenberg: oldest of seven. Sports was huge in my life and sports
Mary Wittenberg: made a real difference. So I always wanted to work
Mary Wittenberg: in sports and I always wanted to be part of
Mary Wittenberg: sports, but I wasn't very good at most sports, like
Mary Wittenberg: basketball and softball and others. So I actually was a
Mary Wittenberg: rower and that's how I found something I was better
Mary Wittenberg: at, in addition to cheerleading and gymnastics. So I did
Mary Wittenberg: not think of myself as a runner, and I'll tell
Mary Wittenberg: you why. I got to law school and I was
Mary Wittenberg: 22, I had just turned 23, and I was finding I
Mary Wittenberg: loved distance running and I ran with the men's team at
Mary Wittenberg: Notre Dame. And here's one of my very first race
Mary Wittenberg: experiences 40 years ago, which is crazy. I was in
Mary Wittenberg: South Bend, Indiana, I just turned 23, as I said. I
Mary Wittenberg: went down the road. I'd never run more than 13
Mary Wittenberg: miles, and I ran the Chicago Marathon because I was like, "
Mary Wittenberg: I'm going to be a lawyer. I should just go
Mary Wittenberg: do this." And again, I was running with the men
Mary Wittenberg: at Notre Dame so I was running hard, the short distances,
Mary Wittenberg: and I'm in this race. And you know when you come
Mary Wittenberg: from other sports, you try to win. You try to
Mary Wittenberg: win, right? So I'm in this race and I love-
Rob Simmelkjaer: What year was this, Mary?
Mary Wittenberg: Chicago, 1985.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Okay. God, two years before you won Marine Corps.
Mary Wittenberg: Wait, wait. I'm sorry. Yeah, Chicago 1985.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Okay, okay.
Mary Wittenberg: And I'll tell you why I was recently reminded of all
Mary Wittenberg: this. So I'm in the race and I come in 16th
Mary Wittenberg: place, like, " 16th place?" But that didn't feel like ... I'm like, "
Mary Wittenberg: 16th place?" I didn't think I was going to win
Mary Wittenberg: or anything, but I didn't think I was so great.
Mary Wittenberg: Well, it ends up that was one of the greatest
Mary Wittenberg: women's fields ever assembled anywhere. Joni, Joan Benoit Samuelson, American
Mary Wittenberg: record 2: 21:21, Rosa Mota, Ingrid Kristiansen, the big three
Mary Wittenberg: in the sport. And it was this moment when the
Mary Wittenberg: Chicago Marathon was at an incredible high. They had a huge
Mary Wittenberg: sponsor in Beatrice. So it was one of the best
Mary Wittenberg: fields ever, but I was like, " I'm 25 minutes behind."
Mary Wittenberg: I ran 2: 40- something. " I'm 25 minutes behind Joan
Mary Wittenberg: Benoit Samuelson." So I wasn't thinking. I thought, " This is
Mary Wittenberg: cool." What was very cool is I would've qualified for
Mary Wittenberg: Olympic Trials if it had been a qualifying window. So
Mary Wittenberg: that became, " Oh, well, that would be kind of cool
Mary Wittenberg: to do." And so that became the goal. But even it
Mary Wittenberg: was never ... I'll tell you how I think it influenced
Mary Wittenberg: my time at Road Runners. It was never a thought
Mary Wittenberg: that I would run full- time, that I would ... I
Mary Wittenberg: considered staying for a year and getting an MBA at
Mary Wittenberg: Notre Dame so that I could try to qualify for
Mary Wittenberg: the trials, but I had school loans and it just
Mary Wittenberg: wasn't something I thought of as really possible. So I
Mary Wittenberg: didn't really think of myself as a big- time runner,
Mary Wittenberg: but I absolutely loved it. And the Olympic Trials qualifier
Mary Wittenberg: became a real opportunity for me and something that I
Mary Wittenberg: thought would be kind of cool to do and meaningful.
Mary Wittenberg: So that's where the more competitive side, that became my
Mary Wittenberg: goal. But being in that race with Joni, it was
Mary Wittenberg: like being in a different league.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. I mean, you could easily see how, with a
Rob Simmelkjaer: result like that, if you had wanted it, you could
Rob Simmelkjaer: have really focused on running and focused on-
Becs Gentry: Yeah. Your whole trajectory could have changed.
Mary Wittenberg: Well, I think what it's ended up doing is I'm
Mary Wittenberg: always drawn to supporting athletes. And so in those years,
Mary Wittenberg: American distance running wasn't really ... There were no more groups.
Mary Wittenberg: And so Road Runners, we brought groups together. And I
Mary Wittenberg: think so much of my passion around providing support around
Mary Wittenberg: athletes is I always did have this inner, " Oh, wouldn't
Mary Wittenberg: it be amazing to have a coach?" And I was lucky
Mary Wittenberg: to have my Notre Dame coach for the men's team, but
Mary Wittenberg: it's not like I had a coach when I graduated law school.
Mary Wittenberg: And there wasn't a lot of support around it. So
Mary Wittenberg: even when we hosted the trials, and everything we've ever
Mary Wittenberg: done, and you guys are doing great stuff, now I
Mary Wittenberg: do think you have to put support on athletes. I
Mary Wittenberg: don't think I was ever going to be in the
Mary Wittenberg: very top of the American group, but I certainly would've
Mary Wittenberg: been better. And also, certainly I look back and we
Mary Wittenberg: know a lot more now about lifting and I was always hurt.
Mary Wittenberg: I wasn't eating right. I wasn't doing anything but running.
Mary Wittenberg: So all of which makes me want to pour back
Mary Wittenberg: into other people when we want to help them know
Mary Wittenberg: everything and be as supported as possible in their running.
Becs Gentry: Which is incredible what you've been doing ever since then.
Becs Gentry: But talk to us a little bit about then that
Becs Gentry: two years in between doing that 1985 Chicago Marathon, being
Becs Gentry: on that cusp. Because you say, if the greats of
Becs Gentry: the time hadn't run, you would've been very, very high
Becs Gentry: up in the ... There was a lot of what-ifs or what- could-
Becs Gentry: have-beens that had happened. Then what happened in that time between
Becs Gentry: Chicago '85 and Marine Corps '87? What was your thought process
Becs Gentry: and how did you feel going into that run?
Mary Wittenberg: I am so humbled. I'm a little embarrassed, guys, having
Mary Wittenberg: me talk about serious running with both of you. But
Mary Wittenberg: at the time when I was at Notre Dame, because
Mary Wittenberg: I was running with the men's team, I never ran more
Mary Wittenberg: than 40, 45 miles, but everything was hard. I could hardly
Mary Wittenberg: breathe all the time. So that led me to a 2:46: 00.
Mary Wittenberg: When I had graduated, I went to Richmond to work
Mary Wittenberg: in a big law firm and I was running a
Mary Wittenberg: lot more on my own and with the local running
Mary Wittenberg: community, which was amazing. So as an aside, watching Keira
Mary Wittenberg: D'Amato come out of Richmond has been very fun because
Mary Wittenberg: it was a very similar experience to mine, except she
Mary Wittenberg: was a lot faster. But then I went the other
Mary Wittenberg: way and I started running a lot, like 90 miles a
Mary Wittenberg: week, 100 miles a week, 70 miles was low week.
Mary Wittenberg: And of course, that netted my mainly getting hurt, but
Mary Wittenberg: I ran 2: 44:00. And when I went to Marine Corps,
Mary Wittenberg: I went to Marine Corps because I really wanted to
Mary Wittenberg: try to qualify for the trials. I was a first- year associate. My boss let
Mary Wittenberg: me ... I left every day at 3: 30 to run
Mary Wittenberg: with the Richmond Cross Country team at University of Richmond.
Mary Wittenberg: And then I went back to work, of course, stupidly till 11:
Mary Wittenberg: 00 PM because I wanted to be a good first-
Mary Wittenberg: year associate. And I look back, again, that's where I
Mary Wittenberg: advise other people. If we're lucky, we get a long
Mary Wittenberg: life. You don't have to do it all at once,
Mary Wittenberg: but I didn't want to be any different than any
Mary Wittenberg: other first- year associate, kind of silly. So I'd run,
Mary Wittenberg: work, run again, and go back to work. And as
Mary Wittenberg: a first- year associate, it was also nice that I
Mary Wittenberg: had something people would talk to me about other than
Mary Wittenberg: legal cases and deals. So Marine Corps was the easy
Mary Wittenberg: event to do because I was in Richmond, so it
Mary Wittenberg: was 90 minutes away. And it was one of the greatest running experiences in
Mary Wittenberg: my life because I was only going out. It was
Mary Wittenberg: my second marathon. My first marathon was amazing because I was
Mary Wittenberg: only going out to do it and finished. My second
Mary Wittenberg: marathon was amazing because I was just going to run
Mary Wittenberg: a time that I had already run. I was trying to run 2:
Mary Wittenberg: 46:00 because it was in the qualifying window. So both times I
Mary Wittenberg: had very positive experiences. I don't even think I broke
Mary Wittenberg: a sweat. It was a cold, cool day, and I
Mary Wittenberg: was running within myself. And there were three of us
Mary Wittenberg: that qualified for the trials that day. And by going
Mary Wittenberg: out so steadily, I gradually was reeling in this amazing first-
Mary Wittenberg: time marathoner who had gone out really fast. And so
Mary Wittenberg: I ended up winning the thing and Bill Rodgers interviews me.
Becs Gentry: Wow.
Mary Wittenberg: And so all these fun things that years later comes
Mary Wittenberg: back around, but I was really lucky. And again, it's
Mary Wittenberg: not until you hit the harder moments in running that
Mary Wittenberg: you really appreciate the really good days, but that was
Mary Wittenberg: a really good day and really fun because my work
Mary Wittenberg: colleagues were all there and I got to qualify for
Mary Wittenberg: the trials and it was cool.
Becs Gentry: First I heard-
Rob Simmelkjaer: I don't think I've ever asked you about that trials run,
Rob Simmelkjaer: Mary. What was that like? Where was it? And how did it go?
Mary Wittenberg: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Well-
Becs Gentry: Yeah, I was going to say, where was it?
Mary Wittenberg: Pittsburgh.
Becs Gentry: Oh! Was it hilly?
Mary Wittenberg: So here's what's crazy about ... Hilly. Here's what's crazy about
Mary Wittenberg: my generation. It took me years later to realize it
Mary Wittenberg: was only the second women's trials.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Wow.
Mary Wittenberg: I mean, that's crazy. But when you're in it, you don't
Mary Wittenberg: know. Same with rowing. It was only three years into
Mary Wittenberg: there being a women's rowing program. And I was a
Mary Wittenberg: coxswain for the men's team. We didn't even have ...
Becs Gentry: Wow.
Mary Wittenberg: But even when you were ... I was the generation that got to be in things, but
Mary Wittenberg: you didn't realize just how close we were to not
Mary Wittenberg: having the same opportunities. But at Pittsburgh, I was the
Mary Wittenberg: first official dropout. So I was interviewed on TV, my
Mary Wittenberg: first TV interview probably, other than probably Marine Corps, but
Mary Wittenberg: crying because I had had knee surgery in January. The
Mary Wittenberg: trials were, I don't know, 110 days or something later.
Mary Wittenberg: And I, of course, again, I was young, so I
Mary Wittenberg: wanted to be my best instead of just getting strong
Mary Wittenberg: enough to be there. So I really pushed it and
Mary Wittenberg: I got hurt the weekend before with an L5 lower back
Mary Wittenberg: disc issue. So I had to get a cortisone shot and get
Mary Wittenberg: the waivers and all of that to be able to
Mary Wittenberg: do that, but I was hurt and dropped out at
Mary Wittenberg: mile two.
Becs Gentry: Oh, oh, oh.
Mary Wittenberg: Oh, well. Again, all of which just fueled my passion
Mary Wittenberg: to come back and help other people when they got their shot.
Becs Gentry: Yeah. But also, alongside your law career, really being the start of
Becs Gentry: your law career taking off and you're doing this too.
Becs Gentry: So that's a massive point there of women still had
Becs Gentry: to do everything. You say you were the second trials
Becs Gentry: and you weren't aware of the change really that had
Becs Gentry: happened, but you were still doing everything.
Mary Wittenberg: Yeah. And it's still where we learn about ourselves too. I'm
Mary Wittenberg: someone who has to, I need to put boundaries on
Mary Wittenberg: things because I'll go too hard. And that was a
Mary Wittenberg: good example of learning, okay, maybe finishing would've been something
Mary Wittenberg: to really be proud of. But at the same time, that's okay.
Mary Wittenberg: I'm glad I went for it, but this is the
Mary Wittenberg: beauty of getting lucky to have more years and life
Mary Wittenberg: behind where you can look back and learn from all
Mary Wittenberg: of it. So it was an extraordinary experience. I still think
Mary Wittenberg: it had to make a difference in my New York
Mary Wittenberg: Road Runner interview. This year I was at the Marine
Mary Wittenberg: Corps Marathon and this extraordinary woman won it and qualified
Mary Wittenberg: for the trials. And I talked to her right after
Mary Wittenberg: and she's a financial advisor. And I said, " Do you
Mary Wittenberg: ever think about working with athletes?" She said, " Sometimes." And
Mary Wittenberg: I'm thinking, " Wow, your life could change by qualifying in
Mary Wittenberg: Olympic Trials and winning the Marine Corps Marathon just like
Mary Wittenberg: I did." And it might not happen today, it might be
Mary Wittenberg: five years from now, but it's going to matter to
Mary Wittenberg: an athlete that she wants to represent that, by the
Mary Wittenberg: way, she had done this. So I still think, and so
Mary Wittenberg: many athletes way, way, way, way, way better than me,
Mary Wittenberg: never get to win, right?
Rob Simmelkjaer: Mm-hmm.
Mary Wittenberg: The best in the world often are second, third, fourth, fifth.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Absolutely. In this sport, yeah. No doubt.
Mary Wittenberg: They don't get to win. So I always feel very lucky
Mary Wittenberg: for the experience of Marine Corps, and I bet it
Mary Wittenberg: helped me when I was interviewing at New York Road Runners.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah, yeah. So tell us about that first interview. What were
Rob Simmelkjaer: you interviewing for in your first interview at New York
Rob Simmelkjaer: Road Runners?
Mary Wittenberg: It's wild to look back. I think it was director
Mary Wittenberg: of administration. It was with the whole board.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Wow.
Mary Wittenberg: It was a lot of people right from the beginning.
Mary Wittenberg: And Allan, the greatest opportunity working with Allan Steinfeld was
Mary Wittenberg: amazing because Allan was desperate for a partner. And he
Mary Wittenberg: was trying to do Fred's external job, his rocket science logistics
Mary Wittenberg: job and be both, and he needed a partner. And
Mary Wittenberg: I walked in the door and I walked in the
Mary Wittenberg: interview, I'm sure they were interviewing a lot of other people,
Mary Wittenberg: and I just had a connection with Allan and could
Mary Wittenberg: see that we'd be highly complimentary to each other. And
Mary Wittenberg: I interviewed with the board. But Rob, I had never
Mary Wittenberg: run a P& L. I was doing corporate deals, so
Mary Wittenberg: I had high- level business experience through, but I didn't
Mary Wittenberg: know about a P& L. I certainly didn't ... I had
Mary Wittenberg: done some sponsorship deals as a lawyer, but I look
Mary Wittenberg: back and I think, " Oof, they took a risk hiring me,"
Mary Wittenberg: but a lot of passion around running. And especially when
Mary Wittenberg: we had to elevate the event side, it is incredible
Mary Wittenberg: how much being a participant really matters in the jobs
Mary Wittenberg: we do because you really know what people-
Rob Simmelkjaer: You get it. You get what runners are going through, what a
Rob Simmelkjaer: day of a runner is like and where the stress points are and what
Rob Simmelkjaer: the needs are. And it is really important to that.
Becs Gentry: Yeah, the whole process.
Rob Simmelkjaer: So I'm sure that gave you a pretty significant advantage,
Rob Simmelkjaer: your running history. And so you were doing that. And
Rob Simmelkjaer: tell me about your early days at Road Runner, as
Rob Simmelkjaer: you're working, of course, up at the townhouse up on
Rob Simmelkjaer: East 89th Street, which I wish I could have experienced.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I picked up a couple of bibs there back in
Rob Simmelkjaer: the day, but I never had a chance to really
Rob Simmelkjaer: go and see what it was like working there.
Becs Gentry: I know. It sounds so cool.
Mary Wittenberg: So it was a huge leap. I had been in my law firm.
Mary Wittenberg: I actually had made partner. I was in Park Avenue
Mary Wittenberg: at the MetLife Building in this-
Becs Gentry: Oh, gosh.
Mary Wittenberg: And again, I grew up very modestly, but here we
Mary Wittenberg: were, Oriental rugs, seeing this whole big law firm scene.
Mary Wittenberg: And I was so ready for Road Runners. I thought
Mary Wittenberg: I'd work at another sports league or otherwise. I didn't even
Mary Wittenberg: know there were jobs for running, so I was so
Mary Wittenberg: excited about this. And I walk into the building one
Mary Wittenberg: day and there was this pushing everyone out of the
Mary Wittenberg: building. It was too busy. We had to get the
Mary Wittenberg: runners out of the building and the brown rug was
Mary Wittenberg: all sort of wet and moldy. And all that, I was like, " Okay,
Mary Wittenberg: I'm ready to ... Okay, we're going to welcome the runners.
Mary Wittenberg: We're going to make this great." And then what I
Mary Wittenberg: didn't realize is there was some real internal conflict that
Mary Wittenberg: I was not used to. And it became clear part
Mary Wittenberg: of my job was going to be settle tempers, help
Mary Wittenberg: everyone get along. And it was only one weekend for
Mary Wittenberg: one night that I thought, " Whoa, what have I gotten
Mary Wittenberg: myself into?" And I never looked back after that because
Mary Wittenberg: it was fun to bring people together and help get
Mary Wittenberg: people aligned and help see the best in everybody where
Mary Wittenberg: there was a fair amount of stress and intentions that
Mary Wittenberg: are always natural between sponsorship and the event team, but
Mary Wittenberg: I love working through it all. But I never looked
Mary Wittenberg: back, but I've got to say for a minute there ...
Mary Wittenberg: And of course, pay cut, the whole thing. It was
Mary Wittenberg: a big, big change, but I had one moment of saying, "
Mary Wittenberg: What did I do?" And ever since, it was the
Mary Wittenberg: greatest decision of my life, other than marrying Derek.
Becs Gentry: Aw. He's a legend too.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Aw, love that. Hi, Derek.
Becs Gentry: I have to ask though, Mary, what was your driver
Becs Gentry: to leave? The traditional sense, you'd made partner as a
Becs Gentry: lawyer. You'd gotten to a really, really high caliber in
Becs Gentry: a career that is very demanding. What made you want
Becs Gentry: to not just be a runner anymore, but change your
Becs Gentry: career path to become a professional within the running world?
Mary Wittenberg: I always wanted to work in sports and always had
Mary Wittenberg: this missionary side. So I never intended to become a
Mary Wittenberg: lawyer. I am not a lawyer by nature in any
Mary Wittenberg: way, shape or form, but you know the risk of
Mary Wittenberg: sometimes you get in a race that's not actually the
Mary Wittenberg: race you want to win and you're in it and
Mary Wittenberg: all of a sudden it's 10 years later. I'm like, "
Mary Wittenberg: Whoa." They're shaking my hand the day I make partner.
Mary Wittenberg: I'm having an existential crisis. Tears are streaming and everyone's saying, "
Mary Wittenberg: Oh, she's so happy she made it." And I'm thinking, "No.
Mary Wittenberg: No. What? This was not my goal. I want to
Mary Wittenberg: work in sports."
Rob Simmelkjaer: It's fascinating. It's fascinating listening to this.
Becs Gentry: Wow.
Mary Wittenberg: You felt this?
Rob Simmelkjaer: Well, Mary, I mean, aside from the-
Becs Gentry: A lot, yeah.
Rob Simmelkjaer: ... elite running thing, and I was a baseball player, not
Rob Simmelkjaer: a runner, but other than that, there's so many parallels
Rob Simmelkjaer: when I listen to you tell this story to my
Rob Simmelkjaer: path. You know this. I went to law school. I
Rob Simmelkjaer: ran my first marathon just for fun, but around the
Rob Simmelkjaer: time I was graduating law school. I also was at a
Rob Simmelkjaer: big law firm. I also took a big pay cut
Rob Simmelkjaer: to go work in sports. This was back when I
Rob Simmelkjaer: went to ESPN in 2002, I guess is when I started. So
Rob Simmelkjaer: all very similar things, differences obviously, but when you talk
Rob Simmelkjaer: about always wanting to work in sports, wanting to do
Rob Simmelkjaer: something that was more than just making money and the mission-
Rob Simmelkjaer: aligned ... And I didn't go as far as you in
Rob Simmelkjaer: the law. I didn't stick around and make partner because
Rob Simmelkjaer: I used to always hear people who made partner tell
Rob Simmelkjaer: the joke.
Mary Wittenberg: Smarter than me.
Rob Simmelkjaer: There's a joke that lawyers tell about making partner at a
Rob Simmelkjaer: law firm, which is it's a pie eating contest, and
Rob Simmelkjaer: the prize you get for winning is more pie, which
Rob Simmelkjaer: is just more of the work-
Becs Gentry: Oh, that's petrifying.
Rob Simmelkjaer: ... that you just did.
Becs Gentry: That's petrifying.
Mary Wittenberg: Correct.
Rob Simmelkjaer: You get to do a lot more of it, right? So I felt the same way about not wanting
Rob Simmelkjaer: to have that moment of making partner. I got out
Rob Simmelkjaer: of there earlier, but it's a very similar path, Mary,
Rob Simmelkjaer: which is really interesting.
Mary Wittenberg: I've always appreciated that our through line is passion, and
Mary Wittenberg: from your story of seeing Boston and knowing what it
Mary Wittenberg: means. And also, I think we can really appreciate what
Mary Wittenberg: running means to us in our life when we don't
Mary Wittenberg: get to do it as a job. So it makes
Mary Wittenberg: us extra, extra appreciate it. And my now being back
Mary Wittenberg: with Let's Do This, I have an even greater appreciation
Mary Wittenberg: of what a truly unique space and opportunity because we're
Mary Wittenberg: helping other people do what has made a difference to
Mary Wittenberg: us. And the more people we can allow to do
Mary Wittenberg: that, the better. So that was the moment that I
Mary Wittenberg: committed. And you make partner, you kind of got to
Mary Wittenberg: stay. And I had all these great people I loved
Mary Wittenberg: that I worked with, but I knew I had to
Mary Wittenberg: make a change. And again, if we're lucky, life is
Mary Wittenberg: long enough to let us do these things. And it
Mary Wittenberg: was the greatest privilege ever to get to make that
Mary Wittenberg: move and work with our amazing running community-
Becs Gentry: Yeah. Oh my gosh.
Mary Wittenberg: ... and team at Road Runners.
Becs Gentry: And you went on to make some really incredible changes.
Becs Gentry: And selfishly, I do want to skew this conversation towards
Becs Gentry: the changes you've made for women in the sport here.
Becs Gentry: And you've already touched on how you were of a
Becs Gentry: generation that you had to train with the boys essentially
Becs Gentry: when you were running with the guys, when you were
Becs Gentry: rowing with the guys, when you skipped out of work. And
Becs Gentry: it was that ethos of training was you almost had
Becs Gentry: to be one of the men back in the day
Becs Gentry: in order to be that strong or to show up,
Becs Gentry: and it's a different kind of grit. So do you
Becs Gentry: think your experience of that as a younger woman led
Becs Gentry: you to make some of these decisions that we're going
Becs Gentry: to talk about shortly in your roles at New York
Becs Gentry: Road Runners?
Mary Wittenberg: Definitely. We had all the years of access, making sure
Mary Wittenberg: women were getting access, and we still have a long
Mary Wittenberg: way to go, especially on the work front. But we,
Mary Wittenberg: although there is an extraordinary ... Rob, you have, as you
Mary Wittenberg: know, you've built and you're part of an extraordinary team
Mary Wittenberg: of women leaders at New York Road Runners. But especially
Mary Wittenberg: for the athletes, and remember, and this is so meaningful
Mary Wittenberg: that you were just in Kenya, Rob, especially in the
Mary Wittenberg: late '90s, '94, it wasn't until Tegla Loroupe won the New
Mary Wittenberg: York City Marathon as the first African woman to do so, and in
Mary Wittenberg: the late ... And what we were so aware, I joined in
Mary Wittenberg: the late '90s, '99, and in '98, Tegla had to do the wash
Mary Wittenberg: of the men in the training camp. That was common.
Mary Wittenberg: So we had to get access, then we had to
Mary Wittenberg: get equity. By the time we're at that age, we're at
Mary Wittenberg: that period, it's about equal prize money. And so we
Mary Wittenberg: had equal prize money. It was not true. I couldn't
Mary Wittenberg: believe it, but it wasn't true around the world. And
Mary Wittenberg: of course, what took me a while to realize was
Mary Wittenberg: golf, tennis, and running as the individual sports, the women
Mary Wittenberg: were paid, in the US, we paid the women equally
Mary Wittenberg: faster, so that was an advantage. But around the world,
Mary Wittenberg: it was still not happening. And certainly in team sports,
Mary Wittenberg: it wasn't happening. But after equity, it was about visibility.
Mary Wittenberg: And we're still working on access, we're still working on
Mary Wittenberg: equity, but visibility. And what was happening in our marathon
Mary Wittenberg: is the women were buried within all the men running
Mary Wittenberg: around them. And so you couldn't see them. And these are
Mary Wittenberg: the greatest athletes in the world. So the specific, the
Mary Wittenberg: idea of how the women ended up going first in
Mary Wittenberg: the marathon was Lornah Kiplagat at a lunch said, " Hey, why don't
Mary Wittenberg: we have the women go first?" I'm like, " Why don't
Mary Wittenberg: we have the women go first?" And Allan, we walked
Mary Wittenberg: over at lunch. You're still going to Bacco for lunch.
Mary Wittenberg: We walked over and, " Allan, what do you think?" He's like, "
Mary Wittenberg: Yeah." We're like, " Okay, let's do it." So it came,
Mary Wittenberg: again, the best way many of these ideas do, that
Mary Wittenberg: was from Lornah. And then our team saying, " Let's do it."
Mary Wittenberg: And here's what I love most about this. It is
Mary Wittenberg: way harder for the women to run the New York
Mary Wittenberg: City Marathon out front than it was when they were
Mary Wittenberg: tucked in because they were tucked in with effectively pacers
Mary Wittenberg: all over. And so it was really all the women
Mary Wittenberg: who said, " Hell yeah, we're in. Let's do this." And
Mary Wittenberg: so it changed a lot in terms of how people
Mary Wittenberg: even see the New York City Marathon. And the women
Mary Wittenberg: have so often been, I'm just looking for my charger,
Mary Wittenberg: the women have so often been the lead story in
Mary Wittenberg: New York for many, many years, and I think that
Mary Wittenberg: visibility was a big part. And again, building on the
Mary Wittenberg: women before us with Nina and Kathrine and others who very
Mary Wittenberg: much set a stage of in New York, women are
Mary Wittenberg: going to be seen and celebrated.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Was there a lot of pushback to that decision, Mary?
Rob Simmelkjaer: I can imagine maybe broadcasters or sponsors or fans might ask, "
Rob Simmelkjaer: Wait, why are you starting the marathon with the women?"
Rob Simmelkjaer: I could see how that conversation might've gone back in 2002.
Mary Wittenberg: You can imagine there are a lot of conversations, including really
Mary Wittenberg: starting in 2001, the wheelers, the pro wheelers. So starting
Mary Wittenberg: the men and women pro wheelers upfront, then the women.
Mary Wittenberg: So guess what? Yeah, the men were fourth in line.
Mary Wittenberg: The pro men were fourth in line. We had pro
Mary Wittenberg: men, pro men and pro women wheelers, then we had the
Mary Wittenberg: women. And again, what was so cool about that is
Mary Wittenberg: each of those, the wheelers start, the women start, they
Mary Wittenberg: were celebrated on TV. So the big thing was, could
Mary Wittenberg: we move the television windows earlier? And I got to
Mary Wittenberg: say, at the time it was NBC, and you were probably
Mary Wittenberg: there at the time, and they were great.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Still ESPN at the time, but yes.
Mary Wittenberg: You were probably in college, but-
Rob Simmelkjaer: I was at ESPN, yep.
Mary Wittenberg: Okay, ESPN. But NBC and ESPN have been great to us over the years. So as
Mary Wittenberg: was PIX way, way, way back, but they actually were
Mary Wittenberg: great about it. So we went earlier and then the
Mary Wittenberg: logistics team, we had to move everything back and then
Mary Wittenberg: eventually we added the waves. But no, I think people
Mary Wittenberg: were really good about it, actually. We had more stress
Mary Wittenberg: around dropping the pacers. TV was really nervous for the
Mary Wittenberg: men and the women to just let them run because it
Mary Wittenberg: used to be the theory was the pacers kept the
Mary Wittenberg: men and especially the women, because there weren't as many,
Mary Wittenberg: but they kept them together until the Queensboro Bridge. So
Mary Wittenberg: the theory was ... And we were like, " But we're not
Mary Wittenberg: a fast race. We're about competition from the beginning." So
Mary Wittenberg: there's a lot of stress around, would we be looking
Mary Wittenberg: at one person for the whole race instead of a
Mary Wittenberg: competitive race? And we ensured, and Sam and David did
Mary Wittenberg: a great job, that the pro fields were deep and
Mary Wittenberg: these were people that wanted to really be here and
Mary Wittenberg: race hard. And sure enough, it worked out great, but
Mary Wittenberg: there was a lot of stress around that decision, I remember.
Becs Gentry: Mary, talk to us a bit about the sports side
Becs Gentry: of it. So when it comes to the agents back
Becs Gentry: then, and I'm sure it was a very different world, but you
Becs Gentry: said it would be tougher for the women to run
Becs Gentry: this race, therefore because they have no shield from the
Becs Gentry: guys. And for our newer runners, that's just basically when
Becs Gentry: runners, they can have a bit of an advantage if
Becs Gentry: you tuck in behind a pack because it can block wind.
Mary Wittenberg: Huge.
Becs Gentry: New York's a windy place. It can help. It's like
Becs Gentry: drafting in cycling if you're on your Peloton. And then so
Becs Gentry: when it comes to the women going out by themselves,
Becs Gentry: as you say, therefore their race is going to become
Becs Gentry: harder. So how was it for the agents and the
Becs Gentry: negotiations for all of these professional women to come to
Becs Gentry: that race with this in mind?
Mary Wittenberg: It was hard with the agents in the countries who
Mary Wittenberg: care about time most. And again, we've never been a
Mary Wittenberg: time course. We don't care about time. I mean, it's
Mary Wittenberg: nice when you have a course record and yay to breaking
Mary Wittenberg: the women's course record last year on the running side,
Mary Wittenberg: but that's where it was hard. And we left money on
Mary Wittenberg: the table. At the time, we were always ... We still
Mary Wittenberg: are waiting for a Japanese winner of New York. We
Mary Wittenberg: always wanted more Japanese TV. We always wanted Japanese sponsors
Mary Wittenberg: and we weren't going to get them. They were going to go to Berlin and Chicago
Mary Wittenberg: and that was okay, but it was more convincing agents
Mary Wittenberg: and helping everybody adjust deals because a lot of the shoe deals, as
Mary Wittenberg: you guys know, there's the upfront prize money, but a
Mary Wittenberg: lot of the money is behind appearance fees and also
Mary Wittenberg: the shoe companies paying the athletes bonuses, and a lot
Mary Wittenberg: of those bonuses were based on time. So over a
Mary Wittenberg: period of time, we were able to convince everybody, " No, no,
Mary Wittenberg: New York is worth the crown. They should be getting big
Mary Wittenberg: bonuses for New York without regard to time." And even
Mary Wittenberg: we had time bonuses. We got rid, I'm sure we
Mary Wittenberg: still have some time bonuses, but we got rid of
Mary Wittenberg: some of that and just tried to up everything, make
Mary Wittenberg: the win and the podium really meaningful so that the
Mary Wittenberg: athletes could make as much money or more money and
Mary Wittenberg: benefit from running here. But then we had to do
Mary Wittenberg: things too like work with the World Athletics because time
Mary Wittenberg: would also be the way you got qualifiers for Olympics
Mary Wittenberg: and world championships. And what if we had a hot
Mary Wittenberg: year or a really cold year? So then we got
Mary Wittenberg: to where, as part of the creating the majors too,
Mary Wittenberg: but where finishing in our top 10 would count as
Mary Wittenberg: a time qualifier in other places. So there's all these,
Mary Wittenberg: as you know really well, but maybe the outside world
Mary Wittenberg: doesn't know, you have an idea that sounds really good,
Mary Wittenberg: like more visibility of women. You got to do all
Mary Wittenberg: the work around that to make sure they fully get
Mary Wittenberg: the benefit, especially as professional athletes.
Rob Simmelkjaer: So we're wrapping up Women's History Month, Mary. What is
Rob Simmelkjaer: one thing you'd like to see happen in sports, in
Rob Simmelkjaer: running that hasn't happened yet? When you look around the
Rob Simmelkjaer: landscape, is there one thing you look at now and
Rob Simmelkjaer: you're like, " Oh, why is it still this way?"
Mary Wittenberg: I think especially globally, globally, we still need a lot
Mary Wittenberg: more women to have fully equal opportunities on the playing
Mary Wittenberg: field and in jobs in sports. So we're definitely getting
Mary Wittenberg: there in the US. I think running has led. I
Mary Wittenberg: think in running, our biggest issue now is I wish
Mary Wittenberg: we had a pro tour for the professional athletes because
Mary Wittenberg: they're just not getting paid well enough to make a
Mary Wittenberg: living. And so you end up with people who can afford
Mary Wittenberg: to do it and not everybody who would be fully
Mary Wittenberg: able to be a great athlete. And Road Runners, Rob,
Mary Wittenberg: you guys have done an extraordinary job and continue to
Mary Wittenberg: be a real force, as have many others supporting from
Mary Wittenberg: there, whether it's Chicago or Land Trek Club and CIM
Mary Wittenberg: and all these others, but it's hard work to have
Mary Wittenberg: a professional opportunity. So definitely would love to see the
Mary Wittenberg: athletes be able to do more of that. Definitely we're
Mary Wittenberg: seeing now in this huge running boom that we've never
Mary Wittenberg: seen before, I wish for women and men we could
Mary Wittenberg: have a little more appreciation for each other. When people
Mary Wittenberg: run, no matter what the pace, is extraordinary, and people who
Mary Wittenberg: run for charity is extraordinary, and people who want to
Mary Wittenberg: try to run to hit some time is extraordinary. It's
Mary Wittenberg: all good. The beautiful thing is it's all good and we're
Mary Wittenberg: here for all of it. So a little bit more
Mary Wittenberg: in general for everybody of just, " Hey, let's recognize the
Mary Wittenberg: superpower and everyone to just come be a part." And
Mary Wittenberg: our roles on the organization side or now mine on
Mary Wittenberg: the technology side and supporting organizers, let's realize there's a
Mary Wittenberg: lot more work to do to get more people to
Mary Wittenberg: start and finish lines and let's keep welcoming each other
Mary Wittenberg: because it's not just the organizers hosting, it's the city
Mary Wittenberg: who's hosting, it's the run clubs who are hosting, it's
Mary Wittenberg: the crew. Let's all be really great and keep welcoming
Mary Wittenberg: other people to running and we'll end up creating more
Mary Wittenberg: and more opportunity. And I don't love the closed- off
Mary Wittenberg: feeling. There's a lot of ways to run and let's
Mary Wittenberg: keep building that and welcoming more people.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Amen to that.
Becs Gentry: That is a beautiful, beautiful thing. I want to give
Becs Gentry: you one more question to wrap it up on a
Becs Gentry: high note because of your experience and your knowledge and
Becs Gentry: the fact that I know Rob and I both see
Becs Gentry: your huge smile at so many races. I can be
Becs Gentry: in a race in Europe and I will know Mary
Becs Gentry: will be there at the finish line with a smile
Becs Gentry: on her face. So what do you see today though
Becs Gentry: in professional and kids races or whichever it is, whenever
Becs Gentry: you get to a race, what makes you proud?
Mary Wittenberg: Oh, just of every person who gets out there and
Mary Wittenberg: takes another step. We know the satisfaction is it's not
Mary Wittenberg: so easy all the time. So everybody who gets out
Mary Wittenberg: there and our roles are ... I thought about it today. Now
Mary Wittenberg: I'm into run commuting because if I don't have time,
Mary Wittenberg: I have my sneakers and my black pants on and
Mary Wittenberg: I'll run to Columbia later at the end of the day. It's okay.
Mary Wittenberg: And so part of our job is showing people, you
Mary Wittenberg: know what? Some people ... We have a lot of privilege to fit running
Mary Wittenberg: in our lives. And how do we help other people
Mary Wittenberg: always fit running in their lives, even if there's no
Mary Wittenberg: time or there's ... So I feel like I'm proud-
Rob Simmelkjaer: I always say, Mary, running is an underrated form of transportation.
Mary Wittenberg: Exactly. It's the best.
Becs Gentry: It's the best.
Mary Wittenberg: So when I see someone-
Becs Gentry: (inaudible) you.
Mary Wittenberg: ... running for a bus, I'm like, "You got it. You got it. Go get that bus." But just
Mary Wittenberg: proud of seeing everybody who puts a foot forward and
Mary Wittenberg: really proud of, I got to say, Rob, for you
Mary Wittenberg: and your team and every event organizer. It's way easier
Mary Wittenberg: to run than it is to work the events, and
Mary Wittenberg: so hats off for all the effort that goes into
Mary Wittenberg: supporting runners. And that makes me super proud and super
Mary Wittenberg: proud of the way the current Road Runner team does
Mary Wittenberg: it. I feel like you're a close team and you
Mary Wittenberg: involve the community, and Becs, you're part of that. And there's
Mary Wittenberg: getting a result and then there's the way you do
Mary Wittenberg: it. And I feel like there's really positive, inclusive, warm
Mary Wittenberg: feeling from the Road Runner team and so many of
Mary Wittenberg: the teams I'm really privileged to work with now around
Mary Wittenberg: the world. This last weekend we had ... Think about this.
Mary Wittenberg: There was the Warsaw Half, the Rome Marathon, the Chicago
Mary Wittenberg: Shamrock, the Shamrock Virginia Beach. Small, large, there's races everywhere
Mary Wittenberg: every weekend. And so the last point I'll make that
Mary Wittenberg: I think we can do together, this is a huge global
Mary Wittenberg: sport that is best on a local level everywhere it
Mary Wittenberg: is. We don't somehow get credit as a sport. We
Mary Wittenberg: see everybody in global football shirts, soccer, which I love,
Mary Wittenberg: and especially the women, especially Gotham, but if you look
Mary Wittenberg: at all the running shirts around the world, there are a lot
Mary Wittenberg: of people running. So this is a real moment of cities
Mary Wittenberg: and towns everywhere having events, and that makes me proud
Mary Wittenberg: because I think some of our Ted Corbitt and Fred
Mary Wittenberg: and others before us all were part of creating an
Mary Wittenberg: environment where people ran on the streets and in the
Mary Wittenberg: parks. And that is happening in a huge way all
Mary Wittenberg: around the world. And that is so powerful in the
Mary Wittenberg: lives of people and in their neighborhoods and super proud
Mary Wittenberg: of everybody who's out there doing that, making it happen.
Becs Gentry: Thank you.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Mary Wittenberg, great to see you. Thanks for being with
Rob Simmelkjaer: us today. Appreciate you.
Becs Gentry: Thank you, Mary.
Mary Wittenberg: I appreciate you guys. Always a lot to say. Bye!
Rob Simmelkjaer: New York Road Runners is a nonprofit organization with a
Rob Simmelkjaer: vision to build healthier lives and stronger communities through the
Rob Simmelkjaer: transformative power of running. The support of members and donors
Rob Simmelkjaer: like you helps us achieve our mission to transform the
Rob Simmelkjaer: health and wellbeing of our communities through inclusive and accessible
Rob Simmelkjaer: running experiences, empowering all to achieve their potential. Learn more
Rob Simmelkjaer: and contribute at nyrr. org/ donate. That does it for
Rob Simmelkjaer: another episode of Set the Pace. We want to thank
Rob Simmelkjaer: Mary Wittenberg for joining us. And Becs, it's always fun
Rob Simmelkjaer: talking to Mary because in this job I realized how
Rob Simmelkjaer: much has changed here, and Mary was a person who changed a lot of it.
Becs Gentry: She did. She sure did. And she's an absolute icon
Becs Gentry: in the running world and always, always, everyone's biggest supporter.
Becs Gentry: I think if you've run alongside her or you've run
Becs Gentry: towards her at a finish line, you know that she
Becs Gentry: is the running world's biggest, biggest, loudest, most wonderful cheerer.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Absolutely.
Becs Gentry: So from the bottom of our hearts, and especially as
Becs Gentry: a female runner in the world, I have a lot
Becs Gentry: to owe and thank Mary for.
Rob Simmelkjaer: All right. Well, if you liked the show, please leave us a five- star
Rob Simmelkjaer: rating. Leave a message. We'd love to hear from you.
Becs Gentry: We do.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Enjoy the miles. We'll see you next week.