Mary Cain: I'm 30 years old and I look more like my 16- year-
Mary Cain: old self than my 19- year- old self looked to
Mary Cain: 16 in some ways, and it's just because my body was
Mary Cain: really fighting itself during that time.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Hey everybody, and welcome to Set the Pace, the official
Rob Simmelkjaer: podcast of New York Road Runners presented by Peloton. I'm
Rob Simmelkjaer: Rob Simmelkjaer, your host and the CEO of New York
Rob Simmelkjaer: Road Runners. And with me, I've missed her, haven't talked
Rob Simmelkjaer: to her live in a while, Peloton instructor Becs Gentry.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Hello, Rebecca. How are you?
Rebecca Gentry: Hello, stranger. I'm good. It has been the longest. I haven't
Rebecca Gentry: seen you in forever.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah.
Rebecca Gentry: I feel like half the year has gone by.
Rob Simmelkjaer: It really does feel like it. We had this thing where maybe you'll
Rob Simmelkjaer: do one episode, I'll do another. We take a week
Rob Simmelkjaer: off, we're traveling, we're doing the things.
Rebecca Gentry: Exactly. It's that time of year.
Rob Simmelkjaer: How's your summer been?
Rebecca Gentry: It's good. It's fantastic. It's hot and wonderful. And I'm
Rebecca Gentry: on the precipice of race number one this weekend. And
Rebecca Gentry: then, yeah, then I feel like-
Rob Simmelkjaer: Race number one for the summer?
Rebecca Gentry: Yeah, essentially. Yes.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Exciting.
Rebecca Gentry: One of the first of the big, big boys are happening this week.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Okay. Here we go. Here we go.
Rebecca Gentry: Yes.
Rob Simmelkjaer: We'll talk about that, but we'll talk about that after the fact, right?
Rebecca Gentry: We will.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Because that's what we're doing now. We're not drawing too
Rob Simmelkjaer: much attention to ourselves before the races.
Rebecca Gentry: No.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Because we don't want that.
Rebecca Gentry: We're just rolling.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I'll talk a bit about my running too, but I'm
Rob Simmelkjaer: excited to hear what you're up to.
Rebecca Gentry: Yeah. No, it's been good. How about you? How is
Rebecca Gentry: your running?
Rob Simmelkjaer: It's been a lot better. Thank you. I've been getting
Rob Simmelkjaer: back into it. It was crazy. My first Road Runners Race
Rob Simmelkjaer: wasn't until the Mindful 5K at the beginning of May. I
Rob Simmelkjaer: didn't run a race till then and that was good.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And then since then I've been jumping back into it.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I ran the Pride Four Miler in June. And I
Rob Simmelkjaer: ran our 9/ 11 Memorial Race with the 9/ 11 Memorial & Museum
Rob Simmelkjaer: a couple of weeks ago, which was a four miler,
Rob Simmelkjaer: which by the way, Becs, was a really wonderful event. It
Rob Simmelkjaer: was the first time we'd had that event partnership with
Rob Simmelkjaer: the 9/ 11 Memorial & Museum this year, the 25th anniversary
Rob Simmelkjaer: of September 11th, 2001. So it was a very meaningful event and
Rob Simmelkjaer: I was really, really proud that we were able to do
Rob Simmelkjaer: that. And I also had a really great run, so it
Rob Simmelkjaer: was awesome.
Rebecca Gentry: Good.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And I'm excited for more as well. I got more
Rob Simmelkjaer: running planned. I'm going to try to run a couple
Rob Simmelkjaer: more Road Runners races this summer. I've got Grete's circles.
Rebecca Gentry: Grete's Gallop, we love it.
Rob Simmelkjaer: That's right. That 10K. And I'm thinking ... It's been kind
Rob Simmelkjaer: of a spotty running year for me with a little
Rob Simmelkjaer: time off, but I'm feeling pretty good now, so I
Rob Simmelkjaer: think I'm going to take a shot at a fast
Rob Simmelkjaer: 5K. I kind of circled Jersey City October 4th to
Rob Simmelkjaer: see if I can run a fast 5K. I haven't
Rob Simmelkjaer: been able to get under 20 minutes in a long
Rob Simmelkjaer: time, couple of years, so if I can feel good,
Rob Simmelkjaer: and I'm feeling good right now. But the one thing
Rob Simmelkjaer: we haven't talked about, Becs, was one of the most fun things
Rob Simmelkjaer: I've done in the last couple of years when I did
Rob Simmelkjaer: HYROX in June, and it was fantastic. I had the
Rob Simmelkjaer: best time.
Rebecca Gentry: Oh, good.
Rob Simmelkjaer: It was great.
Rebecca Gentry: Extended my commentary on HYROX (inaudible) .
Rob Simmelkjaer: I know it's probably whatever, maybe it's competitive. I don't
Rob Simmelkjaer: know how you guys feel about it.
Rebecca Gentry: No, I think it's wonderful.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I think it's probably very compatible with a lot of what you guys
Rob Simmelkjaer: do at Peloton.
Rebecca Gentry: Oh, for Peloton? Yeah. We have a HYROX partnership. We
Rebecca Gentry: actually do offer specific training classes, strength training, combination bootcamp
Rebecca Gentry: classes for HYROX training. I think HYROX is fantastic. The
Rebecca Gentry: varied people who do it in New York, I believe
Rebecca Gentry: it was almost a, was it a 10- day event in New York?
Rob Simmelkjaer: It was 10 days. That's right.
Rebecca Gentry: It was 10 days of competitions of people of all backgrounds showing up and
Rebecca Gentry: doing these events together with a team or solo. It's
Rebecca Gentry: kind of like when running had its boom, it's renaissance,
Rebecca Gentry: it's whatever you want to call it, it reignited the
Rebecca Gentry: fire of movement to a lot of people who weren't
Rebecca Gentry: moving before. And now HYROX is doing the same thing,
Rebecca Gentry: it's reigniting or igniting the fire of strength training, and
Rebecca Gentry: strenuous physical activity to people who may or may not
Rebecca Gentry: have done that before, and I think it is wonderful. I never seem
Rebecca Gentry: to find the right time to do it because I
Rebecca Gentry: always am like, " Yeah, I'll do it." Then a running race
Rebecca Gentry: comes up and I prioritize running all the time, but I
Rebecca Gentry: love cheering my teammates, yourself included on in these endeavors
Rebecca Gentry: because it's a feat. I mean, I've seen so many
Rebecca Gentry: people throw up whilst doing walking lunges.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I did the mixed doubles-
Rebecca Gentry: It's wild.
Rob Simmelkjaer: With a colleague of mine from Road Runners named Stephanie
Rob Simmelkjaer: DiBrita, and we had an amazing time, and we complimented
Rob Simmelkjaer: each other. She did a great job with some of
Rob Simmelkjaer: the things that are hard for me. The walking lunges,
Rob Simmelkjaer: you named it, that is by far my hardest event
Rob Simmelkjaer: because of my knees. But then I would take more of
Rob Simmelkjaer: the weight on some of the heavier things, because you
Rob Simmelkjaer: had to do the men's weight if it's men and
Rob Simmelkjaer: women doing it together, the men's weights apply. So I
Rob Simmelkjaer: would do the sled push and pull, and the farmer's
Rob Simmelkjaer: carry, but we just had the best time. I really
Rob Simmelkjaer: recommend it.
Rebecca Gentry: Yeah. I love it.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I think what was best, if you're recovering from an injury
Rob Simmelkjaer: like I was, you need that strength training, and also
Rob Simmelkjaer: for injury prevention. So it got me in a habit
Rob Simmelkjaer: of really doing that strength work more than I ever
Rob Simmelkjaer: had before because I had a goal. Anyway, I really recommend
Rob Simmelkjaer: it for runners. We're fans of that, and it's good
Rob Simmelkjaer: for runners to do other things.
Rebecca Gentry: Absolutely.
Rob Simmelkjaer: So that was fun.
Rebecca Gentry: It really is. It really is.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah.
Rebecca Gentry: We want a full all- rounded body. Talking about the
Rebecca Gentry: everyday and the fantastic, I'm going to have to move
Rebecca Gentry: on to the absolute fantastic, the elephant in the room,
Rebecca Gentry: that if we don't talk about the British man who
Rebecca Gentry: broke a 27- year one- mile record this past weekend.
Rebecca Gentry: He has been on the podcast twice, I believe.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yes, I believe that's right.
Rebecca Gentry: With us. He is a regular.
Rob Simmelkjaer: We need him back now. Josh Kerr.
Rebecca Gentry: Josh back please. He loves New York Road Runners events.
Rebecca Gentry: We know that. We know he's been a regular at
Rebecca Gentry: the New Balance 5th Avenue Mile, and he broke the one-
Rebecca Gentry: mile record this past weekend, July 18th, at the Diamond Games
Rebecca Gentry: in London, so on essentially home turf.
Rob Simmelkjaer: In front of a packed stadium. I mean, it looked like the-
Rebecca Gentry: A full, full stadium.
Rob Simmelkjaer: It looked like the Olympic Games.
Rebecca Gentry: Yeah.
Rob Simmelkjaer: You see a stadium that size just packed to the gill.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And I think everybody knew what was on the line.
Rob Simmelkjaer: He had talked about it.
Rebecca Gentry: Exactly.
Rob Simmelkjaer: It had been talked about.
Rebecca Gentry: He picked it up.
Rob Simmelkjaer: He was making this attempt.
Rebecca Gentry: He had so much confidence. Yeah. He was there. He knew he'd put in
Rebecca Gentry: so much work for this, and he's always a very
Rebecca Gentry: confident runner. That's I think one of his skills. He
Rebecca Gentry: is very much in tune with his body, and I
Rebecca Gentry: think he knows when he's got the fuel in him,
Rebecca Gentry: and he knows also when he doesn't. He's very, very
Rebecca Gentry: humble at times of being like, " I'm not in shape
Rebecca Gentry: to do this right now." But he came flying in. Rob,
Rebecca Gentry: it hurts my head to think about how fast this
Rebecca Gentry: is, one mile on the track in three minutes, 42.66 seconds.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah.
Rebecca Gentry: Doesn't that just make your whole body quiver in pain?
Rob Simmelkjaer: It's so inspiring. It's so incredible. I mean, when you
Rob Simmelkjaer: think back to what it meant the first time when
Rob Simmelkjaer: someone even broke four minutes, Roger Bannister, right? Back in
Rob Simmelkjaer: the day.
Rebecca Gentry: Yes, back in the day.
Rob Simmelkjaer: That was considered an incredible feat, and then to see
Rob Simmelkjaer: that progress. And this last record standing up, as you
Rob Simmelkjaer: said, for more than two decades, how special a moment
Rob Simmelkjaer: that was to see someone come along and break that. To
Rob Simmelkjaer: me, it's the most iconic record in running. I think
Rob Simmelkjaer: there's two running records.
Rebecca Gentry: I agree.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I guess I would have to say three, that to
Rob Simmelkjaer: me are truly iconic. The 100 meters, the one mile,
Rob Simmelkjaer: and of course the marathon. Those are the iconic. I
Rob Simmelkjaer: guess you could throw the 200 meters in there as
Rob Simmelkjaer: well, but those are the iconic records.
Rebecca Gentry: Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And that one stood for so long, so it was
Rob Simmelkjaer: really incredible to see. Congratulations to Josh Kerr.
Rebecca Gentry: Shout out to our Scottish listeners as well who are
Rebecca Gentry: probably very, very proud of their man there. So yeah,
Rebecca Gentry: Josh, let us know when you're recovered. I heard he
Rebecca Gentry: had a beer and got up the next morning and
Rebecca Gentry: went for 5: 00 AM run as his way of celebrating.
Rob Simmelkjaer: As a runner would. As a runner would.
Rebecca Gentry: Exactly. We're all the same kind of.
Rob Simmelkjaer: It was incredible. So great stuff. And by the way, speaking of
Rob Simmelkjaer: track and field, we've got some world- class track and
Rob Simmelkjaer: field happening right here in New York City this weekend.
Rob Simmelkjaer: That's right, for the first time really ever, the US
Rob Simmelkjaer: Nationals and Para Nationals are coming to New York City
Rob Simmelkjaer: this weekend. This podcast drops on Thursday, that's the first
Rob Simmelkjaer: day of this event, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday all
Rob Simmelkjaer: happening out at Icahn Stadium on Randall's Island. We are
Rob Simmelkjaer: so excited because we're one of the co- hosts of
Rob Simmelkjaer: this event, Becs, along with Central Park Track Club, and
Rob Simmelkjaer: the New York chapter of US Track and Field. New
Rob Simmelkjaer: York Road Runners is hosting this, and we're really proud
Rob Simmelkjaer: to bring this to New York. I mean, these are
Rob Simmelkjaer: the runners, the sprinters, the field athletes that we're going
Rob Simmelkjaer: to see at the Olympic trials in a couple years
Rob Simmelkjaer: and representing the United States in LA in 2028, so
Rob Simmelkjaer: many of them will be on that track. So it's
Rob Simmelkjaer: going to be really exciting to see these incredible athletes.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Noah Lyles is going to be out there, Sha'Carri Richardson,
Rob Simmelkjaer: all the big names in US track and field will
Rob Simmelkjaer: be right here in New York. And there's still tickets available
Rob Simmelkjaer: to this, so if you haven't done it yet, go
Rob Simmelkjaer: check it out online. The website is usatf. org. That's usatf.
Rob Simmelkjaer: org. So make sure you go out, get tickets and
Rob Simmelkjaer: come out to see these incredible athletes on Randall's Island.
Rebecca Gentry: Absolutely. Enjoy. Enjoy. All right, shall we talk about our
Rebecca Gentry: episodes, Rob? Because we're kind of doing something a little
Rebecca Gentry: bit differently over the next two episodes here on Set
Rebecca Gentry: the Pace.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah.
Rebecca Gentry: It's one story that the team have decided will be
Rebecca Gentry: better to be told over two separate episodes, and I
Rebecca Gentry: think Rob and I both agree that it was a really
Rebecca Gentry: different and very impactful way of telling a deep story, right?
Rob Simmelkjaer: It is. It is a deep story. It's a complicated
Rob Simmelkjaer: story. We know that running, and especially the professional side
Rob Simmelkjaer: of running is hyper- competitive. It can be emotionally challenging and
Rob Simmelkjaer: taxing for the athletes. And what we're going to do
Rob Simmelkjaer: today is tell the story of a woman named Mary
Rob Simmelkjaer: Cain, who we know well at New York Road Runners.
Rob Simmelkjaer: She actually worked at New York Road Runners for some
Rob Simmelkjaer: time. So we do this in two parts. On today's
Rob Simmelkjaer: episode, Mary joins me for an interview where we really
Rob Simmelkjaer: talk about her story as a pro athlete. So she's
Rob Simmelkjaer: going to talk about that in our first episode with me, and then,
Rob Simmelkjaer: Becs, it goes to you.
Rebecca Gentry: Yeah, it does. Essentially, we're talking about how Mary broke
Rebecca Gentry: her silence, as Rob said, in 2019, and how these
Rebecca Gentry: experiences that she unfortunately went through can help model a
Rebecca Gentry: way for female runners to speak up, to change the
Rebecca Gentry: narrative for future female runners, and hopefully serve as models
Rebecca Gentry: for that change that really does need to continue to
Rebecca Gentry: happen in all sports for the women athletes here.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah, there are some common themes. In Mary's memoir, she
Rob Simmelkjaer: talks about a practice with the Nike Oregon Project where she
Rob Simmelkjaer: locks herself in a bathroom crying because the emotional strain
Rob Simmelkjaer: is so great. And she talks about the fact that
Rob Simmelkjaer: all of her teammates just kept running, nobody stopped to
Rob Simmelkjaer: check in on her, to talk to her. And Emily
Rob Simmelkjaer: Richards, who you speak to, has a somewhat similar story.
Rob Simmelkjaer: She's a college freshman. She wins an all- America title,
Rob Simmelkjaer: comes home for the summer and no one from her
Rob Simmelkjaer: team texts her to say congratulations. So there's this theme
Rob Simmelkjaer: of really asking the questions, how can we, in this
Rob Simmelkjaer: case it's women, I'm sure this can happen with men
Rob Simmelkjaer: as well, be teammates and competitors at the same time?
Rob Simmelkjaer: How can we compete and also support each other at
Rob Simmelkjaer: the same time when we're in these situations? This happens
Rob Simmelkjaer: in all kinds of sports to all kinds of people and
Rob Simmelkjaer: all genders as well. And Becs, I'm sure you can relate
Rob Simmelkjaer: to some of this as someone who's been a competitive
Rob Simmelkjaer: female runner.
Rebecca Gentry: Yeah, absolutely.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Before we get into the conversation with Mary, we want
Rob Simmelkjaer: to make sure that people know one thing. Mary does
Rob Simmelkjaer: talk about self- harm and suicidal thoughts at one point
Rob Simmelkjaer: in this episode, thoughts that she had during her years
Rob Simmelkjaer: at the Nike Oregon Project. She talks about it directly,
Rob Simmelkjaer: but we think with a lot of sensitivity. But if
Rob Simmelkjaer: those topics are hard for you, our listeners, to listen
Rob Simmelkjaer: to right now, you might want to consider not listening
Rob Simmelkjaer: to this. Take care of yourself, protect your mental health.
Rob Simmelkjaer: If for any reason you need resources or have had
Rob Simmelkjaer: any suicidal thoughts, there are resources listed in the show
Rob Simmelkjaer: notes. So please go find those resources if you need
Rob Simmelkjaer: anything like that before, during, or after listening to this
Rob Simmelkjaer: episode. So that's something that we want to hear ... I
Rob Simmelkjaer: want to make sure everybody hears. And now we will
Rob Simmelkjaer: go to our conversation with Mary Cain.
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Mary Cain: I can't stop smiling on our walk back to Alberto's
Mary Cain: car. As I slide into the driver's seat, I replay
Mary Cain: in my mind how Alberto called another girl, who has
Mary Cain: run fast all year, fat. He took me on. He
Mary Cain: must have faith that I can be skinny. He doesn't
Mary Cain: have faith in her. I might not be there yet,
Mary Cain: but he has faith. That has to mean something.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Mary Cain grew up in Bronxville, New York. As a
Rob Simmelkjaer: teenager, she was the fastest girl in America. At 16,
Rob Simmelkjaer: she joined the Nike Oregon Project under Coach Alberto Salazar.
Rob Simmelkjaer: The following year, at 17, she became the youngest American
Rob Simmelkjaer: ever to reach a world track and field championship final,
Rob Simmelkjaer: finishing 10th in the 1500 meters in Moscow. A few months after that,
Rob Simmelkjaer: she signed her first professional endorsement deal with Nike. But
Rob Simmelkjaer: by 2016, Mary had quit the Nike Oregon Project and
Rob Simmelkjaer: moved back to the East Coast. Three years later, The
Rob Simmelkjaer: New York Times published a video essay of hers called
Rob Simmelkjaer: I Was the Fastest Girl in America Until I Joined
Rob Simmelkjaer: Nike. Mary's video essay was shocking to many fans, and
Rob Simmelkjaer: even professionals, and it really changed the conversation in and
Rob Simmelkjaer: about the sport of running. Mary's memoir, This Is Not
Rob Simmelkjaer: About Running, came out this past April from Mariner Books.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Here's my conversation with Mary Cain. So, Mary, take me
Rob Simmelkjaer: back to the day that Nike first signed you. You
Rob Simmelkjaer: were 17 years old. What did your parents understand about
Rob Simmelkjaer: what you were stepping into? What did you understand about it?
Mary Cain: Yeah. So when I signed at 17, I had already been
Mary Cain: a part of a Nike program for about a year.
Mary Cain: I first started working with Alberto Salazar when I was
Mary Cain: a junior in high school or 16 years old. Over
Mary Cain: the course of that year, I qualified for world championships
Mary Cain: where I finished 10th of the world, and I'd had
Mary Cain: a really, at least at the time I felt like
Mary Cain: really great experience with my team. So in many ways,
Mary Cain: being able to sign a professional contract was just an
Mary Cain: opportunity for me to be paid for my work, because
Mary Cain: 10 years ago or really more like 13 years ago
Mary Cain: at this point, the NIL did not exist. There was
Mary Cain: no opportunity for a collegiate athlete to make money. I
Mary Cain: also was being pressured by the Oregon Project to really only
Mary Cain: run for the University of Oregon, and I didn't feel
Mary Cain: that that school was really the right fit for me,
Mary Cain: both academically and also athletically. So in many ways it
Mary Cain: felt like a great opportunity, and then in other ways, it
Mary Cain: kind of felt like it was one of two options
Mary Cain: for me if I wanted to continue running in the
Mary Cain: way that I had been. So I think in many
Mary Cain: ways I signed it in a way that any minor
Mary Cain: signs a contract, which is having no understanding of what
Mary Cain: that means other than I hope things keep going how
Mary Cain: they're going. And I think in many ways my parents,
Mary Cain: it was pretty similar, because most of the language from
Mary Cain: the folks at Nike, and also my agent, and my
Mary Cain: team was that, like, " Everyone's going to take care of
Mary Cain: her. This is a long term. We're a family. This
Mary Cain: is kind of just a way for her to make
Mary Cain: money." Versus really always thinking about it quite from the
Mary Cain: legal backing that none of us had.
Rob Simmelkjaer: You mentioned Alberto Salazar. Can you talk about some of
Rob Simmelkjaer: the things he would say to you as you were
Rob Simmelkjaer: working with him, and some of those statements, those comments
Rob Simmelkjaer: you talk about that really it seems began to trigger
Rob Simmelkjaer: issues for you when it came to your body and
Rob Simmelkjaer: weight, and things of that nature?
Mary Cain: Yeah. I think it was in some ways a gradual buildup to conversations that
Mary Cain: became much more direct and much more explicitly toxic around
Mary Cain: how I looked. And I think because there was this
Mary Cain: kind of slow rolling development, it made it almost seem
Mary Cain: less like all of a sudden he's calling me fat,
Mary Cain: which I think would've been more jarring, and maybe I
Mary Cain: would've been more able to push back against, but instead
Mary Cain: it started with this like, " We're trying to get you
Mary Cain: to be lean and mean." It kind of started in
Mary Cain: these cliche sayings that I think we really normalize within
Mary Cain: sport. And I think there was a period of time before he
Mary Cain: really started very explicitly talking about my weight where he
Mary Cain: was like, " It looks like you're losing fitness. It looks
Mary Cain: like you're not the same as you were before." It
Mary Cain: was kind of this code word in retrospect, so that was all
Mary Cain: about just how I looked and my weight, but that
Mary Cain: I interpreted as like, " Oh, he doesn't think my form's
Mary Cain: the same," or, " He doesn't think I'm running as fast."
Mary Cain: Even though in retrospect, going back and writing this book
Mary Cain: and looking at my training logs, I'm like, " Oh, my
Mary Cain: gosh, those workouts were the best I'd ever done in
Mary Cain: my life." But there was just this constant negative language
Mary Cain: that was his version of synonyms to, " I think you
Mary Cain: look fat." And then gradually it developed into him more
Mary Cain: explicitly saying that to me, but by that point I was
Mary Cain: kind of numbed to any form of negativity.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. And you wrote about a drive back from a workout
Rob Simmelkjaer: with him where you replayed the fact that he had
Rob Simmelkjaer: called another girl fat with you there and how that
Rob Simmelkjaer: made you feel. Can you talk about that?
Mary Cain: Yeah. I think it was one of the ... There's a
Mary Cain: few memories that I have of Alberto and also other
Mary Cain: folks, whether a part of the Nike Oregon Project or part
Mary Cain: of the Nike Sports Marketing Team, where they would very explicitly
Mary Cain: talk about other women's bodies. And I think one of the
Mary Cain: things in crafting this memoir was that I kind of
Mary Cain: wanted to admit the moments that I regret and that
Mary Cain: I have shame over. Because I think when you're in
Mary Cain: these abusive systems, it's really normal, unfortunately, for people to
Mary Cain: almost hear the same language that's directed at them and
Mary Cain: almost feel relief. You feel almost glad that that language
Mary Cain: is being directed at others instead of standing up for
Mary Cain: these other people and saying, " Hey, this is really problematic."
Mary Cain: It's part of the reason that abuse is perpetuated in
Mary Cain: the way that it is, and it's because there's a
Mary Cain: real, almost toxicity that's kind of directed at everyone within
Mary Cain: the system, even other people who are going through it.
Mary Cain: So that specific instance, it was a moment where another
Mary Cain: athlete who was ultimately signed by Nike with a different
Mary Cain: team was being spoken about, and Alberto was just using
Mary Cain: really toxic language about the way that she looked, and that
Mary Cain: being the reason he didn't want to take her on.
Mary Cain: In that moment I felt almost like, " Well, at least
Mary Cain: he's not saying that about me, and at least he
Mary Cain: still wanted me. So there must be something he sees
Mary Cain: in me." And I think if we never address that
Mary Cain: kind of piece to it, then I don't think we
Mary Cain: often see why this perpetuates, and it's because if everybody
Mary Cain: is almost fighting against each other for a spot instead
Mary Cain: of lifting everyone up, then there's going to be this
Mary Cain: really toxic mentality.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. The level of insecurity that must exist for these
Rob Simmelkjaer: athletes just has to be immense. I mean, you're in
Rob Simmelkjaer: a highly competitive situation when it comes to just how
Rob Simmelkjaer: fast you're running, and then you add to that the
Rob Simmelkjaer: competition, to be perceived the right way by sponsors, by
Rob Simmelkjaer: coaches. So all of that, I'm sure, leads to the
Rob Simmelkjaer: kind of phenomenon you're talking about, where you could have
Rob Simmelkjaer: these weird reactions that you might look back on with
Rob Simmelkjaer: all this distance from that time and realize, " Yeah, that
Rob Simmelkjaer: probably wasn't the right reaction for me to have to that.
Mary Cain: Exactly, exactly. And I think it's important too, because I think sometimes other
Mary Cain: athletes, when they read memoirs like mine can almost feel
Mary Cain: defensive because they know all of the things they thought about me,
Mary Cain: they know the things that they said about me, and
Mary Cain: hearing me call that out is reacted to with like, "
Mary Cain: Oh, she's being negative. She's being mean. She's being this."
Mary Cain: Instead of saying, " Hey, I get it. She's even admitting
Mary Cain: she had negative thoughts. How can we almost all come
Mary Cain: together and admit that sometimes in abusive situations, even those
Mary Cain: of us who are victimized can almost perpetuate some form
Mary Cain: of toxicity? And how do we break the cycle?"
Rob Simmelkjaer: You have written that you look at photos of yourself
Rob Simmelkjaer: from those years and you see things now that you
Rob Simmelkjaer: couldn't see then. Can you walk me through one photo?
Rob Simmelkjaer: What do you see, and what didn't anybody else see
Rob Simmelkjaer: at that time?
Mary Cain: Yeah. I think there's two different things that I see.
Mary Cain: I think one part of it is I just see
Mary Cain: how skinny I was, and how much during that time
Mary Cain: I was being told, not only from Alberto, but from
Mary Cain: my coaches, from my teammates, from the media, from competitors,
Mary Cain: that I was fat. I think ... You know, I laugh, but I laugh because
Mary Cain: it's one of those things where it's like you either laugh or
Mary Cain: you cry, because seeing those images, I was so clearly
Mary Cain: underweight. And the fact that people felt that they could
Mary Cain: talk about me in a way with such vitriol is
Mary Cain: just really disturbing to be now as an adult person.
Mary Cain: But then I think the other piece to it is
Mary Cain: there's skinny, and then there's when somebody really clearly looks
Mary Cain: physically unwell. And the thing I always like to say
Mary Cain: about eating disorders is there's not one look. It's not
Mary Cain: you have to be a certain weight or you have
Mary Cain: to have a certain physique in order to have an
Mary Cain: eating disorder. People of all different body types can struggle with
Mary Cain: body dysmorphia and disordered eating habits. But I think some
Mary Cain: of the ways in which my body was physically changing,
Mary Cain: like my gums were receding, my hair was thinner, even
Mary Cain: just the way my face developed. Often people who are
Mary Cain: severely under eating can almost bloat in their face where
Mary Cain: they're holding more water weight. It's just all sorts of
Mary Cain: physiologic changes that now I really recognize in those photos,
Mary Cain: in a way that I'm 30 years old and I look
Mary Cain: more like my 16- year- old self than my 19- year-
Mary Cain: old self looked to 16 in some ways, and it's
Mary Cain: just because my body was really fighting itself during that
Mary Cain: time. I think that's really upsetting. Also, then on the
Mary Cain: back of the fact that I so clearly looked just
Mary Cain: underweight, period, to realize that people were not only directing
Mary Cain: this really negative toxic language at me of being overweight,
Mary Cain: but it was like I looked ill. I looked like
Mary Cain: I had an issue. And the fact that articles were
Mary Cain: written about me where competitors talked about the way that
Mary Cain: I looked, I just find that much more disturbing.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah, that is pretty disturbing. It's amazing when you think
Rob Simmelkjaer: about that kind of dialogue happening. I feel like we've
Rob Simmelkjaer: moved past that. I hope we've moved past some of
Rob Simmelkjaer: that, but this wasn't that long ago when you really
Rob Simmelkjaer: think about it. Can you think about a workout where
Rob Simmelkjaer: your body was telling you something specific? What was happening
Rob Simmelkjaer: physically, and what did you tell yourself it was at that time?
Mary Cain: I definitely ran through injuries in ways that was deeply
Mary Cain: problematic, not only then, but even now for my body,
Mary Cain: but I think even just ... One of the things I
Mary Cain: find so interesting looking back is that there were a
Mary Cain: lot of workouts that I ran where I essentially had
Mary Cain: emotional breakdowns at the end. In retrospect, I think it
Mary Cain: was because I was a mix of actually physically exhausted
Mary Cain: because the workouts were that level of hard, but also I
Mary Cain: was balancing being yelled at and told constantly throughout the
Mary Cain: workout, like, " You're failing. You're doing horrible. Other people are
Mary Cain: beating you. Why do you look the way that you
Mary Cain: did? You gained five pounds overnight." Just real vitriol, that
Mary Cain: I was emotionally being expected to maintain when both underfed, under-
Mary Cain: fueled, and exhausted, and sprinting all out. I think what
Mary Cain: was really interesting was I gaslighted myself at the time to
Mary Cain: be like, " Wow, you're so weak. You're not finishing these
Mary Cain: workouts. You have such a problem." Just all this just self-
Mary Cain: hating language. And when I look back at my training
Mary Cain: logs I was like, " Today people have super shoes. Today
Mary Cain: people are taking all sorts of weird supplements and stuff,
Mary Cain: and that's why times are so much faster." And to
Mary Cain: today's standards, my workouts were insane. So the ways in
Mary Cain: which I was being told, like, " You are failing," when
Mary Cain: so clearly that workout was insanely competitive, I just find
Mary Cain: so interesting because even at the time I really taught
Mary Cain: myself that even pushing yourself to your limits wasn't enough,
Mary Cain: and that that was in some way not what you
Mary Cain: should be able to do. I think just the emotional
Mary Cain: gaslighting that was done to me, and therefore that I
Mary Cain: perpetuated onto myself, I think is just really deeply disturbing, and
Mary Cain: I think is something that, unfortunately, a lot of folks
Mary Cain: can really empathize with.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. There must have been people around you, doctors, teammates,
Rob Simmelkjaer: friends, family who kind of saw what was going on
Rob Simmelkjaer: with you. What did they say? Or was there a
Rob Simmelkjaer: silence in some cases that contributed to some of this?
Mary Cain: Yeah, really the only people who were horrified by it were my family,
Mary Cain: and my parents in particular. When I was out in
Mary Cain: Oregon specifically, I was really isolated from them because I
Mary Cain: would get in trouble if I called them, and I would be
Mary Cain: told like, " You're a professional. You're an adult. You can't
Mary Cain: be calling your mom and dad." It got to a
Mary Cain: point where I really stopped talking to them in the
Mary Cain: way that I used to, but it was so clear
Mary Cain: even from afar from people who loved me and cared
Mary Cain: about me that my body's changing. I'm not the same
Mary Cain: personality I used to be. It was a pretty clear
Mary Cain: change. I think, they as a result, even from afar,
Mary Cain: were constantly trying to kind of intervene when they could,
Mary Cain: and the times I would tell them things, they would
Mary Cain: immediately get on the phone. When I first moved out
Mary Cain: to Oregon, I told them that Alberto kept talking about my
Mary Cain: weight and it was really upsetting me. And they called the individual
Mary Cain: who I was told was a sports psych who was
Mary Cain: not, and my coach to say like, " What are you
Mary Cain: guys doing? Why are you talking about weight with her?
Mary Cain: You're not professionals, please stop." The response was just to
Mary Cain: get mad at me and tell me that I can't
Mary Cain: talk to my parents about that sort of stuff. And
Mary Cain: then my teammates just witnessed all of it, and honestly,
Mary Cain: either egged it on or just didn't do anything. At
Mary Cain: best, they were just silent bystanders, and at worst, they
Mary Cain: treated me really cruelly. When it came to doctors and other folks
Mary Cain: in the ether, very few competitors were kind to me.
Mary Cain: Sprinters and field event athletes were always awesome. They were the
Mary Cain: people who got me through meets. But when it came
Mary Cain: to support people, most of them were just Nike folks,
Mary Cain: or Alberto's friends, or people who in retrospect didn't actually
Mary Cain: have the degrees to handle helping me. At least in
Mary Cain: one instance, there was a woman who was the assistant
Mary Cain: coach's wife who worked as my nutritionist, and I understood she
Mary Cain: wasn't a nutritionist. But honestly, even to this day, I
Mary Cain: don't always fully understand the degrees required for some kind
Mary Cain: of roles like that. She was a PhD and a
Mary Cain: scientist, and so I still thought she would be somebody
Mary Cain: who could give support, but she just fed into really
Mary Cain: the system telling me that I needed to lose weight
Mary Cain: and that something was wrong with me.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Mary, you wrote about actually cutting your legs at times
Rob Simmelkjaer: when you felt they were failing you. What do you
Rob Simmelkjaer: remember about doing that? And what do you think was
Rob Simmelkjaer: really, to the extent you can analyze your past self,
Rob Simmelkjaer: what do you think was really behind that?
Mary Cain: Yeah. I mean, I think at this point I've done a lot of
Mary Cain: therapy in a way that it's like I don't think
Mary Cain: you always fully can understand what's going through your mind
Mary Cain: in the moment in retrospect. But I think, at least
Mary Cain: how I understand it, at least today, is that I
Mary Cain: really internalized so much of the vitriol that was being
Mary Cain: directed at me from all of these different experiences. And
Mary Cain: I think I just developed such a sense of self-
Mary Cain: loathing and self- hatred that when really toxic, misogynistic, cruel
Mary Cain: language was being directed at me, I didn't think, " Wow,
Mary Cain: that's so messed up that that person's saying that to
Mary Cain: me." I internalized it as I am in some way
Mary Cain: wrong, and I feel that, at least my experience of
Mary Cain: it was I could have such a physical reaction. I've
Mary Cain: always been somebody who, like if I'm really upset I
Mary Cain: get an adrenaline rush. I think I can be ... I
Mary Cain: always kind of joke I have high sympathetic tone. And
Mary Cain: I would have such a buildup that in retrospect was
Mary Cain: probably anger, that instead of directing it at the people
Mary Cain: who were cruel and horrible, and writing things about me,
Mary Cain: I would instead direct it at myself. And for whatever
Mary Cain: reason, for me, that developed in a way that was self-
Mary Cain: harming, and also negative self- talk, and other forms of self-
Mary Cain: directed negativity. But I felt that self- harming became this
Mary Cain: kind of release in a way. And part of the
Mary Cain: reason I've talked very publicly about this is I think a
Mary Cain: lot of folks who have experienced some form of self-
Mary Cain: harming are taught societally to feel a lot of shame,
Mary Cain: and to feel like they're somehow wrong and this is
Mary Cain: something you can't talk about. I feel like that stigma
Mary Cain: often prevents people from really getting help, and understanding that
Mary Cain: very often this self- internalization is in some ways societally
Mary Cain: and externally derived, and being able to learn how to,
Mary Cain: in healthy ways, channel that anger, that sadness, whatever that
Mary Cain: feeling is that you're turning into yourself is really important.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. One of the stories you tell, which I think
Rob Simmelkjaer: goes a long way toward explaining the environment that you
Rob Simmelkjaer: were living in was one day your teammates saw you
Rob Simmelkjaer: lock yourself in a bathroom crying and they kept running.
Rob Simmelkjaer: They just kept on with the workout, which is hard
Rob Simmelkjaer: to believe. Walk me through that. I don't know, what
Rob Simmelkjaer: does that tell the reader of your book or someone
Rob Simmelkjaer: who's trying to understand your journey about what that environment
Rob Simmelkjaer: was like?
Mary Cain: Yeah. I mean, I think it's so funny because people will be like, " Wow, that's
Mary Cain: so shocking," and I was like, "Not if you meet these people." I think
Mary Cain: sports is set up often to portray publicly a team
Mary Cain: experience when it's not one. And I think as a
Mary Cain: young person, I really thought these people will be my
Mary Cain: teammates, and that was something I had not experienced in
Mary Cain: a long time because I had a very negative high school experience
Mary Cain: at Bronxville. So I think I was really craving friendship,
Mary Cain: camaraderie, and all of these things. There's some ways that
Mary Cain: I look back and I'm like, " Wow, most of these
Mary Cain: people were 30." So maybe me at 17 thinking they
Mary Cain: were going to be my best friends was a childish
Mary Cain: perspective because I was a child. But then in other
Mary Cain: ways, as younger than some of them were at this time
Mary Cain: still, I'm like, " Gosh, I can't even imagine treating a
Mary Cain: child in the way that they treated me." I think
Mary Cain: the reason though often people did was because it was
Mary Cain: a very individual sport. At the end of the day,
Mary Cain: if I wasn't serving them in some capacity, whether it
Mary Cain: was for social media likes, or for money, or for
Mary Cain: pushing them in a workout, then I was just draining resources.
Mary Cain: I experienced that in a more acute way even when I
Mary Cain: was ... I wrote about this in my book, but we were
Mary Cain: at a Navy SEALs training camp, and it was supposed
Mary Cain: to be a team bonding experience. And Galen Rupp, who was
Mary Cain: a teammate of mine at the time just shamed me
Mary Cain: in front of everyone, talking about how I needed to
Mary Cain: grow up and stop acting so emotional at workouts. At
Mary Cain: this point I was 18, and at this point had
Mary Cain: been told over many years that he used to cry
Mary Cain: out during every single workout in Oregon. For some reason
Mary Cain: there was a double standard that what I was doing
Mary Cain: was somehow problematic, even though at least I never threw things.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. Yeah, it's a team sport until it's not, right?
Rob Simmelkjaer: That's what happens sometimes with sports, there is that competition
Rob Simmelkjaer: between teammates. And in a sport like running, which is
Rob Simmelkjaer: fundamentally an individual sport, you are actually running races against
Rob Simmelkjaer: your teammates at times. I could see how that could
Rob Simmelkjaer: get even trickier. Mary, this is a sensitive topic, but
Rob Simmelkjaer: you talked about having suicidal ideation during some points while
Rob Simmelkjaer: you were with the Nike Oregon Project, and you wrote
Rob Simmelkjaer: passages of how you thought to yourself, " I'm not going to
Rob Simmelkjaer: kill myself, not today." What got you through that period
Rob Simmelkjaer: of time?
Mary Cain: I think there were really two things. I think part
Mary Cain: of it is I am religious, I am Catholic, and
Mary Cain: I think that helped give me pause during some really
Mary Cain: acute moments. There were at least two instances I was
Mary Cain: very close to killing myself, and the second thing was
Mary Cain: my family. I think, for me, the idea I have
Mary Cain: two younger sisters and an older sister, and two incredible
Mary Cain: parents, and I think the idea of causing them harm
Mary Cain: by causing myself harm was something that ultimately made me
Mary Cain: stop during one of the attempts. The really sad thing
Mary Cain: is those were the only things. I didn't stop for
Mary Cain: any other reason other than them. It's now sad for
Mary Cain: me to look back at pictures of myself and see
Mary Cain: what I now know to be clear signs of under-
Mary Cain: eating. Old photos of me with puffy chipmunk cheeks especially
Mary Cain: show me just how hard and how long my body
Mary Cain: was fighting itself.
Rob Simmelkjaer: So you eventually left the Oregon Project, but you still
Rob Simmelkjaer: were having some effects, right? Your body wasn't behaving. You
Rob Simmelkjaer: realized at one point you couldn't feel your leg. What
Rob Simmelkjaer: was going on at that point?
Mary Cain: Yeah, I think it was a few things. I think,
Mary Cain: first off, having been a part of that program for
Mary Cain: so long, when I left I didn't leave thinking it
Mary Cain: was problematic. So a lot of the self- loathing, the language,
Mary Cain: the training mentality didn't just go away because I suddenly thought
Mary Cain: it was bad, it kind of continued because I just
Mary Cain: thought I was a failure, not this program was abusive
Mary Cain: and horrible, and really inappropriate and should not be continued.
Mary Cain: So at least for a few years that was part
Mary Cain: of the problem. And then the other thing is, when
Mary Cain: you damage your body it doesn't overnight heal, and so
Mary Cain: I got into a cycle of bone stress injuries and
Mary Cain: issues. And then, ultimately with my leg I developed something
Mary Cain: called functional popliteal artery entrapment syndrome. It's a condition where
Mary Cain: the artery in the back of your knee essentially gets
Mary Cain: functionally compressed, meaning at rest it's fine, but if you're
Mary Cain: doing anything like movement- oriented, it gets compressed so you
Mary Cain: have less blood flow in that whole area. We think
Mary Cain: nerve impingement as well, creating neurological symptoms. Part of the
Mary Cain: problem was that it took a really long time to
Mary Cain: get diagnosed because I was often walking into doctor's offices and
Mary Cain: kind of being written off because I had mental health
Mary Cain: conditions written on my chart. It was always kind of
Mary Cain: habitual where somebody, and this was not just doctors, this was folks of
Mary Cain: all different health professionals, whether massage, PT, et cetera, would
Mary Cain: see that, they would often all of a sudden become
Mary Cain: language of like, " Hey, trauma lives in the body." Stuff
Mary Cain: that I both believe and understand, but also recognize that
Mary Cain: they were seeing a young woman come in who at
Mary Cain: times was emotional, and writing it off as something in
Mary Cain: my head versus an actual physical problem.
Rob Simmelkjaer: In 2016, you were told that you might have something
Rob Simmelkjaer: called the Female Athlete Triad. What is that?
Mary Cain: So the Female Athlete Triad is a concept that was
Mary Cain: created to kind of explain low energy availability in female
Mary Cain: athletes traditionally. Now there's also an understanding that this affects
Mary Cain: men, but it's the idea that you can have low
Mary Cain: bone density, you lose your period, and you have an
Mary Cain: eating disorder are kind of the three points of the triangle.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Got it. And how did you react when you were told that?
Mary Cain: That didn't make any sense to me essentially, and I
Mary Cain: think ... Since when I do advocacy work, working with folks
Mary Cain: who are nutritionists or doctors, what I often explain is
Mary Cain: that when you have a young person in particular come
Mary Cain: into your office with an eating disorder, they don't always
Mary Cain: understand that that's what they have. So I was coming
Mary Cain: from this experience where there was literally a Runner's World
Mary Cain: article out in the world where coaches and competitors were talking
Mary Cain: about the fact that I was heavy. So to me,
Mary Cain: it's not just Alberto Salazar saying I'm heavy, it's not
Mary Cain: just my teammates, it's not just the Nike folks, this
Mary Cain: is on the internet in ways that is honestly even
Mary Cain: more than just your toxic running forums who always perpetuate
Mary Cain: misogyny. This was from individuals who, by all accounts, made
Mary Cain: these claims against me and was more valid because it
Mary Cain: was like, " Wow, this is a universal understanding that I am heavy."
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah.
Mary Cain: And so when you-
Rob Simmelkjaer: It was like objective truth basically out there in the world
Rob Simmelkjaer: you felt.
Mary Cain: Yeah. So I'm like " These neutral third parties who are
Mary Cain: also experts in sport look at me and think I'm
Mary Cain: fat." So when you go into a doctor's office and this
Mary Cain: is the language that you're surrounded by on a day- to-
Mary Cain: day, and somebody's like, " Oh, you have a bone stress
Mary Cain: injury? Oh, yeah, you have the Female Athlete Triad." Now,
Mary Cain: in me saying this that's not to say that I
Mary Cain: didn't. In retrospect, I understand that I did. But as
Mary Cain: a patient, as somebody who was going to go through
Mary Cain: treatment, there was this big language disconnect, and this large
Mary Cain: kind of misunderstanding from provider to patient because I was thinking, "
Mary Cain: No, there's one whole piece to this triangle. Is it
Mary Cain: me?" But the RED- S diagnosis was something I was
Mary Cain: more open to hearing. Thinking about running, and food, and
Mary Cain: my body in terms of energy made it all feel
Mary Cain: less personal.
Rob Simmelkjaer: At some point, the way that your condition was described
Rob Simmelkjaer: changed. You were diagnosed with something called RED- S. Can
Rob Simmelkjaer: you explain to folks what that is, and why you
Rob Simmelkjaer: were more open to hearing that?
Mary Cain: Yeah. So RED- S is Relative Energy Deficiency in Sport, and
Mary Cain: essentially these are very similar concepts. There's a real synergy
Mary Cain: between these two, and people who do research in both
Mary Cain: often are very deeply connected. But the difference for me
Mary Cain: as a patient was that with RED- S, it wasn't
Mary Cain: this kind of harsh, like, " You are a girl. You
Mary Cain: don't have your period. You're underweight. We're trapping you in
Mary Cain: this triangle." Instead, it was almost a spectrum where it
Mary Cain: was like your life is more complicated than how much
Mary Cain: you eat and how much you run. There are stressors
Mary Cain: in your life that have nothing to do with this.
Mary Cain: You're also a college student. You also have relationships. You
Mary Cain: have all of these other facets to yourself, and you
Mary Cain: are having this relative energy deficiency, and it can be
Mary Cain: on the day- to- day, it can be chronic, it
Mary Cain: can be all sorts of things, but maybe the amount
Mary Cain: that you are fueling to do all of these things
Mary Cain: isn't what your body needs. I think this immediately reframed
Mary Cain: it to me in a way that at the time
Mary Cain: I still had body dysmorphia, at the time I still
Mary Cain: felt I was overweight, but it suddenly felt less like, "
Mary Cain: You are just this girl with an eating disorder." It
Mary Cain: was more like, " Let's figure out how to fuel your
Mary Cain: specific body for your specific needs." There's probably some people who are
Mary Cain: going to be listening like, " Isn't the semantics?" And I'm
Mary Cain: kind of like, " Yes and no." I think it made
Mary Cain: it so there was suddenly this broader understanding too, that
Mary Cain: my health might be affected in more ways than just
Mary Cain: I lose my period or I break bones. There's maybe
Mary Cain: more concerns, and now over the last few years there's
Mary Cain: been way more research into RED- S, and there's an
Mary Cain: understanding for stuff that men experience this too. So it
Mary Cain: was less of a gendered specific thing. But also that
Mary Cain: in, at least mice models, organs shrink when this happens.
Mary Cain: It doesn't just affect reproductive organs in mouse models, there's
Mary Cain: more to it. So like, " How is this affecting your
Mary Cain: brain? How is this affecting your heart?" Or questions that
Mary Cain: now in science we're kind of asking, and that suddenly
Mary Cain: felt more like, " Whoa, I'm more than an athlete. How
Mary Cain: do I overall encompass my health?"
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah, it's very interesting. I can see how RED- S, it was
Rob Simmelkjaer: just a little bit less gendered, a little bit less
Rob Simmelkjaer: judgmental maybe in some ways, and so something you were able
Rob Simmelkjaer: to hear differently. If you could go back to a
Rob Simmelkjaer: doctor's appointment from before you knew about RED- S and
Rob Simmelkjaer: you understood that framework, or you understood that at an
Rob Simmelkjaer: earlier age, what do you think might have changed for
Rob Simmelkjaer: you over those years?
Mary Cain: Yeah. I mean, I think had I at times been
Mary Cain: seen as more than my chart. By that I mean
Mary Cain: when you go into a doctor's office, and again, other
Mary Cain: providers, not just doctors, and they're kind of looking at
Mary Cain: your quick history and they're like, "Oh, she has these bone injuries, and
Mary Cain: she's got mental health. She's one of those." That was, I think,
Mary Cain: almost how I felt I was treated, and the problem with-
Rob Simmelkjaer: Put into a bucket of problematic or whatever, right? Not to
Rob Simmelkjaer: be dealt with in the same way-
Mary Cain: Exactly.
Rob Simmelkjaer: As somebody else might be.
Mary Cain: Like she's probably hysterical kind of energy. I think the
Mary Cain: problem with that is it's just really not trauma- informed. I
Mary Cain: think it also really doesn't approach patients who come to
Mary Cain: the same end but get there through different means. Maybe
Mary Cain: somebody else is struggling with disordered eating because of their
Mary Cain: exposure to social media. Maybe someone else is because of
Mary Cain: their experience in their household. Maybe someone else is from
Mary Cain: this teen experience. So this kind of blanket like eat
Mary Cain: more, run less language that I think can sometimes be
Mary Cain: passed around. It's not to say that that's bad, but it's
Mary Cain: like if you're not addressing the actual issue as a
Mary Cain: healthcare provider, then the idea of just eating more, running
Mary Cain: less isn't going to fix anything. Because again, if it's
Mary Cain: like social media consumption, well, that's not going to stop.
Mary Cain: So this person is still going to have those thoughts,
Mary Cain: they're still going to have that as a result outcome
Mary Cain: even if you're kind of Band- Aiding it. So I
Mary Cain: think that's something that I feel very strongly could have
Mary Cain: shifted my own experience, is if there were maybe moments
Mary Cain: where there was just a few more questions asked that were
Mary Cain: kind of your standard. In medical school you learn it
Mary Cain: as SIGECAPS, which is a depression criteria. So anytime I
Mary Cain: went into a sports doctor the fact that nobody ever
Mary Cain: thought to be like, " Hey, let's do a broader mental
Mary Cain: health check. Let's do a broader," like, " Is this person
Mary Cain: safe? Have they been abused? Check." Those standards of care,
Mary Cain: at least within sports medicine. When I was kind of
Mary Cain: navigating this it just seemed to be really lacking.
Rob Simmelkjaer: So it's fitting I think that you are now going
Rob Simmelkjaer: to medical school. You went through this period, the medical
Rob Simmelkjaer: system failed you for a while, for sure, before it
Rob Simmelkjaer: finally helped you. What from this experience, Mary, are you
Rob Simmelkjaer: taking to this path you're on now studying to be
Rob Simmelkjaer: a doctor?
Mary Cain: Yeah. I think one of the big things is bedside manner.
Mary Cain: I have always extended a lot of grace to physicians
Mary Cain: because my dad's an anesthesiologist. So I understand how exhausting
Mary Cain: this career is, how much kind of blame and shame
Mary Cain: is put on doctors when the actual problem is our
Mary Cain: healthcare industry, and how the government treats them, how health
Mary Cain: insurance treats people. All of those facets to it I
Mary Cain: think have always made it so that I understood, and
Mary Cain: gave grace to any provider who didn't necessarily give me
Mary Cain: that time. But I think the really awesome thing about
Mary Cain: being in medical school right now is I do see
Mary Cain: this younger generation clearly wants to change some of that,
Mary Cain: and clearly wants to be those doctors who takes that
Mary Cain: extra two minutes in the room. Or maybe takes a
Mary Cain: step back and they're like, " Ooh, you have a stress
Mary Cain: fracture, but let me actually ask you a little bit
Mary Cain: more about everything else, and not just how much are
Mary Cain: you running." So I think that kind of ability to
Mary Cain: sit down and really see someone is what I'm really
Mary Cain: hoping my experience can kind of bring to my own
Mary Cain: future profession.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. And there are unquestionably girls running today who have what
Rob Simmelkjaer: you had, undiagnosed, most likely in a lot of cases RED-
Rob Simmelkjaer: S, under- fueled, not having a period, fighting their bodies.
Rob Simmelkjaer: What would you want them to know if they're hearing
Rob Simmelkjaer: this? And what would you want the doctors who see
Rob Simmelkjaer: them to know?
Mary Cain: Yeah. I mean, I think one thing I often say,
Mary Cain: especially to the athlete themselves is like, " You will be
Mary Cain: a better athlete if you are healthy. You will run
Mary Cain: faster. You will do better. You will go further. You
Mary Cain: will go longer. You will have a healthy career and
Mary Cain: a happy career if you're healthy." I think that piece
Mary Cain: to it is sometimes really, really difficult for athletes to
Mary Cain: see because for a long time the role models who
Mary Cain: girls have looked up to are not healthy. They might
Mary Cain: tell you they are, but it's a small world and
Mary Cain: we all know each other. A lot of it's just
Mary Cain: the way that the industry is structured, whether it's through
Mary Cain: contracts or through coaching that has made it. So I think there's
Mary Cain: a lot of doubt that that statement I made at
Mary Cain: the beginning is true. But there are people out there
Mary Cain: who are doing it in a healthy and in a
Mary Cain: safe way. You can also see this in other sports.
Mary Cain: There are women who are part of our US Women's
Mary Cain: Nationals Team out there playing basketball, doing tennis, who are
Mary Cain: just having these careers where they're continuing for much further
Mary Cain: on than we ever expected athletes to be able to
Mary Cain: continue performing. And it's because they're staying healthy, and therefore
Mary Cain: they have that longevity to get in the, at least
Mary Cain: from the running equivalent, get in the miles to ultimately
Mary Cain: have that sort of outcome. So from an athlete perspective,
Mary Cain: that's the kind of carrot that I try to dangle.
Mary Cain: And then I think from the broader medical perspective, I
Mary Cain: realized that medical curriculum changes a lot over time, and
Mary Cain: not everyone who an athlete interfaces with in a healthcare
Mary Cain: perspective is a doctor. So not everybody has the same
Mary Cain: educational standards. But I think I would just always really
Mary Cain: encourage folks to be comfortable with the idea that they're
Mary Cain: constantly a learner, and there's constantly new information that's coming
Mary Cain: out. And even if they don't have to take an
Mary Cain: exam like I do, it doesn't mean you shouldn't be
Mary Cain: kind of a self- starter with trying to stay up
Mary Cain: to date with the most recent information. Whether you are just
Mary Cain: a high school coach or a PT or an athletic
Mary Cain: trainer, it doesn't matter who you are, I think almost
Mary Cain: having the humility to be like, " Just because 20, 30, 40 years
Mary Cain: ago, this is what I learned, it doesn't mean that
Mary Cain: science hasn't showed us that, no, losing your period isn't
Mary Cain: normal. It's not healthy. It's not going to set this
Mary Cain: person up for success." And just because you were told
Mary Cain: that at some point doesn't mean that's where science actually
Mary Cain: understands it today. There is a troubling trend in sports.
Mary Cain: Brands would rather pay athletes to pretend problems have been
Mary Cain: fixed instead of putting money behind organizations actively creating change.
Rob Simmelkjaer: So in 2019, you published a video, The New York
Rob Simmelkjaer: Times video, which went quite viral and was a widely
Rob Simmelkjaer: talked about piece called I Was the Fastest Girl in
Rob Simmelkjaer: America Until I Joined Nike. What do you remember about that
Rob Simmelkjaer: piece and when it dropped? Where were you when it went live?
Rob Simmelkjaer: And what were the kind of reactions that rolled in
Rob Simmelkjaer: when that happened?
Mary Cain: I was home with my parents when it went live.
Mary Cain: And part of it was because I knew no matter
Mary Cain: what it was going to be really hard. I did
Mary Cain: not expect it to go viral in the way that it
Mary Cain: did. But I thought even if one person reads it,
Mary Cain: that's still heavy and I wanted to be surrounded by
Mary Cain: the people who had always loved me whether or not
Mary Cain: I ever ran. So that no matter what came of it,
Mary Cain: if it was really vitriolic towards me and really negative,
Mary Cain: I'd be with people who really supported me. And I remember
Mary Cain: just being kind of blown away by the actual positivity
Mary Cain: that came from it. I think that really surprised me, just having navigated
Mary Cain: the experience that I did for so long. And I
Mary Cain: think in some ways that made me very sad because
Mary Cain: it really reinforced what I already understood to be true,
Mary Cain: but yet hoped wasn't, which is that so many people
Mary Cain: relate to what I went through. So many young people
Mary Cain: are abused in sports. It is so normalized. It's why
Mary Cain: girls drop out at the rates that they do. It's
Mary Cain: why so many folks when they're in adulthood want nothing
Mary Cain: to do with sports, and it's because they hold these
Mary Cain: really traumatic experiences from their childhood. And so in watching
Mary Cain: my piece, women and men could be like me too. I understand
Mary Cain: what you went through. And it really emboldened me to
Mary Cain: go down the path that I have over the last
Mary Cain: few years of being like, " How can I keep using
Mary Cain: the platform that not only my athletic talents, but also
Mary Cain: The New York Times piece afforded me to just help as
Mary Cain: many people as I can, and hopefully prevent this from
Mary Cain: happening to other folks?" Because it just seems like we
Mary Cain: know this is a problem, but the power players aren't
Mary Cain: really doing much to change it.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. A lot of folks probably wanted to be associated
Rob Simmelkjaer: with you after that. You learned some things after that
Rob Simmelkjaer: New York Times piece dropped about who to say yes
Rob Simmelkjaer: to, who not to say yes to. What was that like?
Mary Cain: Yeah. I think the two lessons I learned were within at least ...
Mary Cain: I think The New York Times piece made me feel like, "
Mary Cain: Wow, people really care. Look at all these people who
Mary Cain: care. Look at all these people who are passionate." But that
Mary Cain: doesn't mean the people who control money want to change
Mary Cain: the systems that they've already been benefiting from, and we societally
Mary Cain: understand this. We see this with government. We've seen this
Mary Cain: with so many corporate entities. So just because like 90%
Mary Cain: of the population is like, " Abusing kids is bad," doesn't
Mary Cain: mean the people who can prevent it ever really step
Mary Cain: in. I kind of learned that the hard way, which
Mary Cain: was taking call after call with corporate entities talking about
Mary Cain: these issues and seeing them be like, " Yeah, that's great.
Mary Cain: Do you want to tweet that you talked to us?"
Mary Cain: I'd be like, " No, because you didn't do anything. You
Mary Cain: haven't actually enacted any sort of policies. There's no partnership
Mary Cain: here." This was just an education, like, " Do you want
Mary Cain: to support awesome nonprofits sort of experience?" And then there'd
Mary Cain: be like, " No, no, no, no, no, we don't. We want you
Mary Cain: to make us look good. We're not actually going to
Mary Cain: do anything." It was essentially what I started to understand
Mary Cain: within a lot of corporate spaces.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Virtue signaling as they call it, right?
Mary Cain: 100%. I mean, New York Road Runners understands this being
Mary Cain: in the nonprofit space, but that tension is really difficult
Mary Cain: to navigate. It creates a lot of burnout because you
Mary Cain: pretty quickly realize there's so much virtue signaling versus real, like, "
Mary Cain: How do we have community impact?" And then I think
Mary Cain: on the non- corporate end, more in the like, we'll
Mary Cain: call it influencer space, there was also a lot of
Mary Cain: virtue signaling. And I found myself becoming really disgusted by
Mary Cain: the behaviors of others who were almost using fraudulent advocacy,
Mary Cain: where they were just using messaging that they didn't privately
Mary Cain: in any way purport to get themselves paid versus actually
Mary Cain: doing any substantive community service work or fundraising. You and
Mary Cain: I could probably sit here and name so many people
Mary Cain: who's actually boots on the ground, done work within the
Mary Cain: professional or the influencer running sphere, so it's not to
Mary Cain: say it's everyone. But, I mean, there were women who
Mary Cain: were naming me in their books, selling their books, pretending
Mary Cain: they were my mentors, and using my story to sell
Mary Cain: themselves. To at least one of those women's credits, she
Mary Cain: actually did reach out and apologize after reading my memoir.
Mary Cain: So it's not to say some people can't maybe learn
Mary Cain: from those experiences, but I think I just reached a
Mary Cain: point where I was like this is deeply unsustainable to
Mary Cain: do outside of really volunteer work for me at this
Mary Cain: point. Because I think I'm just too, and honestly, it was always volunteer work,
Mary Cain: I was never really being paid for this, but I
Mary Cain: think it still felt like something where I was like, " I
Mary Cain: need to have boundaries here," because I really am deeply
Mary Cain: passionate about this work. I really do do it volunteer,
Mary Cain: and I'm just getting angry, and that doesn't serve me,
Mary Cain: and therefore it doesn't serve the work that I'm doing.
Mary Cain: But I do think people need to be called out
Mary Cain: for doing that sort of stuff because rather than brands
Mary Cain: paying a nonprofit or an individual who really does true
Mary Cain: advocacy work, it's like influencers are propped up in a
Mary Cain: sports bra and they're like, " Look, it's a woman." Like " What?"
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. Yeah.
Mary Cain: Sports was built on a system that normalizes mistreatment. To
Mary Cain: change sports, we need to build structures that establish safeguarding
Mary Cain: practices, give people a place to turn to when they're
Mary Cain: in trouble, and make it clear we no longer condone abuse.
Rob Simmelkjaer: So tell me about your decision to create Atalanta. What
Rob Simmelkjaer: is it, first of all, and what led you to
Rob Simmelkjaer: creating this?
Mary Cain: Yeah. So I created Atalanta really kind of on the
Mary Cain: backs of the experience that I had, both on the
Mary Cain: professional end of things, but also in the high school experience.
Mary Cain: Before I ever joined Alberto's program, I had a really horrible high
Mary Cain: school experience, mostly through helicopter parents, and just the jealousy
Mary Cain: and creepiness of adults, honestly. And I felt very strongly
Mary Cain: that to change sports you need ... there's two spaces we
Mary Cain: need to adjust. One is for professional female athletes, how
Mary Cain: we support them, how we build them up long- term.
Mary Cain: But also kids, whether or not they're ever going to
Mary Cain: go probably. Why does youth sports look like this churn
Mary Cain: and burn? We're only using it for the end game
Mary Cain: of making one kid ultimately do drugs to run really
Mary Cain: fast versus it being this lifelong, beautiful teamwork experience. So
Mary Cain: I created Atalanta where we hire professional female runners in
Mary Cain: New York City to serve as mentors to girls in
Mary Cain: underserved parts of our community, and it's been amazing. It's
Mary Cain: been truly something I'm very proud of, and kind of
Mary Cain: a bright spot sometimes on a low day to be like, "
Mary Cain: Wow, there's this incredible organization that employs women who I
Mary Cain: really respect and really admire." At this point I'm just
Mary Cain: on the board, and it still continues almost without me
Mary Cain: having to do the day- to- day in the same
Mary Cain: way. And I think there's something really humbling and really
Mary Cain: beautiful about that because it's really the first, and maybe only
Mary Cain: time I have felt that I've been able to put something
Mary Cain: in motion and other people can kind of grab the
Mary Cain: baton and keep going versus it only being off my back.
Rob Simmelkjaer: What do the professional runners who serve as mentors in
Rob Simmelkjaer: the Atalanta program get out of it? What do the kids get
Rob Simmelkjaer: out of it, of course? But what do the professionals
Rob Simmelkjaer: get out of it? That's what I'm wondering, thinking back
Rob Simmelkjaer: to your experience, and what you might've gotten out of
Rob Simmelkjaer: something like that.
Mary Cain: Yeah. So I think the way we structured it was
Mary Cain: that they're actually employees of the organization who also work
Mary Cain: for the organization. So not only do they go in
Mary Cain: and do community work, which let's be real, is so
Mary Cain: fun and really rewarding, and I used to go to
Mary Cain: some of the sessions and just like ... you adore the
Mary Cain: kids, so that in and of itself I think is really additive.
Mary Cain: But also, these women are being empowered to run essentially
Mary Cain: like a small nonprofit. So whether it's through the marketing,
Mary Cain: through donor relations, through interacting with our community through other
Mary Cain: work, like coaching and other facets to how we both
Mary Cain: fundraise and organize, it's almost giving them tools to set
Mary Cain: them up long term for careers in ways that ... I
Mary Cain: mean, Leah just crushed it at the Jamaican National Championships.
Mary Cain: So it's like these women are still running at this
Mary Cain: incredibly high and competitive level, but they're not going to
Mary Cain: retire as only runners. They're going to retire with a
Mary Cain: CV where they can say like, " I managed an organization
Mary Cain: that has thousands of followers Instagram account. I have the
Mary Cain: experience to work at donor relations." I see all of
Mary Cain: these women being able to one day come to New
Mary Cain: York Road Runners and say, " This is what I've done."
Mary Cain: And for you guys to be like, " Oh, wow, you
Mary Cain: could work here. You could work there." In a way
Mary Cain: that's so often we understand now more and more that
Mary Cain: so many athletes leave sport and they're lost because they
Mary Cain: don't necessarily have these transferable job skills. And then you
Mary Cain: see these incredibly inspiring people who never move on to
Mary Cain: be leaders in sport, and I think that kind of
Mary Cain: piece is almost my big audacious goal. It's like to
Mary Cain: one day see these women maybe be in that sports
Mary Cain: marketing department that used to never have a woman, maybe
Mary Cain: be that coach when a program has never had a
Mary Cain: female coach. It's like, how do we empower women to
Mary Cain: be in those power positions?
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. So how have you felt about the reception to
Rob Simmelkjaer: your book so far? It's not an easy book to
Rob Simmelkjaer: write. I'm sure for a lot of people, not an easy book to
Rob Simmelkjaer: read. A lot of things said in there about people
Rob Simmelkjaer: and experiences. What has it been like for you since
Rob Simmelkjaer: the book came out?
Mary Cain: I think I am at a point in my life where I am
Mary Cain: really proud of what I wrote. The first time that
Mary Cain: I sat down, because I wrote my own book, you
Mary Cain: get so used to this editing process and being really
Mary Cain: in the weeds, and so the first time you actually
Mary Cain: just sit down and you're like, " Okay, I guess I'm
Mary Cain: going to read my book that I just wrote," was
Mary Cain: so beautiful. Because as I was reading it, I was
Mary Cain: like, "I really like this. I'm really proud of this. I
Mary Cain: think I crafted this in the way that I wanted to, and if someone
Mary Cain: else doesn't like it, then okay, you don't have to."
Mary Cain: I think that's something that going into it I knew.
Mary Cain: If I made one person happy and that person was
Mary Cain: just myself, that's pretty cool. I think beyond my kind
Mary Cain: of pride at this piece, it's been really positive overall
Mary Cain: the conversations I have with people. I think knowing, similarly
Mary Cain: to The New York Times piece, that there are folks
Mary Cain: who read this and then reach out to me and
Mary Cain: say like, " I don't think I ever would've been able
Mary Cain: to come to terms with the experience I had unless
Mary Cain: I kind of read someone else really express what I
Mary Cain: felt." I don't think I could ever really describe how
Mary Cain: meaningful that is to me to know that I've really helped
Mary Cain: someone in that way. I think that's because it's kind of the
Mary Cain: only reason I wrote this book. It's not like a
Mary Cain: super fun, super flattering story. And I think the one thing
Mary Cain: I will say is that usually the negativity I have
Mary Cain: felt, and I don't read reviews and stuff, but it's usually
Mary Cain: just the stuff that gets back to me, is usually
Mary Cain: from people thinking me sharing my abuse is in some way
Mary Cain: petty. And I think more so for other folks who
Mary Cain: have experienced really negative things, I kind of want them
Mary Cain: to hear that you should never carry shame over the
Mary Cain: way others treated you. I think if you feel in
Mary Cain: your personal life that people shame you for expressing defense
Mary Cain: of yourself to protect others, to protect yourself, to create
Mary Cain: peace for you, that person is the one who needs
Mary Cain: help, not you in standing up for yourself. I would
Mary Cain: say that's something that I have done enough therapy, that usually when
Mary Cain: I have heard those comments I'm just like, " I hope you
Mary Cain: go talk to someone so you understand why someone admitting
Mary Cain: that they were treated cruelly makes you mad at that
Mary Cain: person." But really other than that, I've just felt a
Mary Cain: lot of positivity. I think the place that's usually the
Mary Cain: most lacking is within the professional running world, although I have had
Mary Cain: some really lovely people reach out. But I think it's
Mary Cain: not surprising that there's maybe some folks who have written
Mary Cain: memoirs that if you go through their comments section, you
Mary Cain: will see all of professional running celebrating it, and you
Mary Cain: won't see that for me. But I think that's because
Mary Cain: often when you hold up a mirror for people, no
Mary Cain: matter how it's a mirror, whether it's my experience or
Mary Cain: they relate to the behavior of my teammates or coaches,
Mary Cain: whatever it is, I think that's something that I just hope continues
Mary Cain: to change. So hopefully nobody ever else writes a memoir
Mary Cain: like this, but God forbid in 10 years, I would
Mary Cain: hope there's more support from the professional running world.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Well, good for you for doing it. Well said. Bravery is not such
Rob Simmelkjaer: a plentiful thing in this world, so you exhibited some
Rob Simmelkjaer: in doing what you've done. So congratulations and thank you
Rob Simmelkjaer: for talking with us. It's an important conversation. We appreciate it.
Mary Cain: Yeah, and thank you for having me.
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Rebecca Gentry: That was Rob's conversation with Mary Cain. Her memoir, This
Rebecca Gentry: Is Not About Running, it came out this past April from
Rebecca Gentry: Mariner Book. So if you haven't, go pick up a copy
Rebecca Gentry: and learn a little bit more about this incredible woman.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. And Becs, Mary spent about 10 minutes at the end
Rob Simmelkjaer: of our conversation talking about the team that she founded,
Rob Simmelkjaer: Atalanta NYC. She mentioned that Atalanta is the first thing
Rob Simmelkjaer: in her life she's ever been able to pass to
Rob Simmelkjaer: someone else. And we're going to pass the next episode
Rob Simmelkjaer: to you, Becs. So next week you're going to interview that
Rob Simmelkjaer: very same Atalanta team.
Rebecca Gentry: Absolutely. Mary spent the last six years trying to change
Rebecca Gentry: what it means to be a woman runner in this
Rebecca Gentry: country, and we're going to find out if she has
Rebecca Gentry: managed to do this.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. And one more thing, Becs, before we go. Mary
Rob Simmelkjaer: is one of the runners who helped bring RED- S, Relative Energy
Rob Simmelkjaer: Deficiency in Sport into public consciousness. Our friends at HSS,
Rob Simmelkjaer: the Hospital for Special Surgery, have actually just published a four-
Rob Simmelkjaer: part YouTube series about RED- S. If you want to
Rob Simmelkjaer: go deeper on the science of that condition, she talks
Rob Simmelkjaer: about it in this episode, then you can go to
Rob Simmelkjaer: listen to HSS's episodes on YouTube as well. The link
Rob Simmelkjaer: to those episodes are in the show notes. All right,
Rob Simmelkjaer: Becs, well, that does it for this episode of Set
Rob Simmelkjaer: the Pace. If you like the episode, make sure you
Rob Simmelkjaer: subscribe, rate, leave us a comment, send us a question
Rob Simmelkjaer: so others can find the show as well. Thanks to
Rob Simmelkjaer: Mary Cain for joining us. We'll see you next time.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Enjoy the miles.