Dr. Metzl: These super- agers are people between the ages of 80 and 100
Dr. Metzl: who have no chronic disease compared to controls. There was
Dr. Metzl: a study looking at their genome sequencing. Were they genetically
Dr. Metzl: different because they were living so long, so healthfully? And
Dr. Metzl: people thought, " Yeah, well, you're just genetically superior, that's why."
Dr. Metzl: But in fact, that's not true at all, that these super-
Dr. Metzl: agers have no genomic difference from the average person. What
Dr. Metzl: they have different are habits.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Hey everybody, and welcome to Set the Pace, the official
Rob Simmelkjaer: podcast of New York Road Runners, presented by Peloton. I'm
Rob Simmelkjaer: your host, Rob Simmelkjaer, the CEO of New York Road
Rob Simmelkjaer: Runners, and I'm reunited this week with my co- host
Rob Simmelkjaer: from Peloton, Becs Gentry. Hey, Becs, I feel like I haven't
Rob Simmelkjaer: seen you in ages.
Becs Gentry: I know.
Rob Simmelkjaer: We've been two ships passing in the night. Good to see you.
Becs Gentry: What with travel, and then I took a week off
Becs Gentry: and went to chilly Florida for a week.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Not as chilly as New York. But yes, I know it wasn't exactly the best.
Becs Gentry: Well, that was it. As every Floridian is like, " Oh gosh, I'm so
Becs Gentry: sorry about this weather." My aunt and uncle were like, "
Becs Gentry: Oh, you sure you don't want to postpone your trip?"
Becs Gentry: I'm like, " No, you guys, it is 60 degrees warmer
Becs Gentry: here than it is in New York. I will take
Becs Gentry: it." And I got to run outside every day, which I
Becs Gentry: haven't done here in New York for like, two months.
Becs Gentry: So, yeah, it was, yes, a long way of saying
Becs Gentry: we have been like this, but we're back for a
Becs Gentry: few weeks together.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah, a little bit. I'll be traveling some too, next week, but at
Rob Simmelkjaer: least we have this time together.
Becs Gentry: He's traveling, and I'm traveling.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And it's good.
Becs Gentry: Exactly. And what an episode.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Absolutely. We have a great conversation coming up a little bit later on with my doctor, many
Rob Simmelkjaer: people's doctor in New York, Dr. Jordan Metzl from HSS.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Dr. Metzl has put out a great new book called
Rob Simmelkjaer: Push, which is not just a book about how to
Rob Simmelkjaer: not get hurt or to get better as a runner,
Rob Simmelkjaer: but it's about the motivation that we all need when
Rob Simmelkjaer: it comes to running or moving our bodies. Jordan's an
Rob Simmelkjaer: incredible guy, great doctor, and that's a great conversation, which
Rob Simmelkjaer: we'll talk about motivation and all that. And we'll talk a little bit
Rob Simmelkjaer: about my story too, and the enforced break from running
Rob Simmelkjaer: that I've had over the last couple of months. I'll
Rob Simmelkjaer: tell you what, Becs, it's been a bummer not to
Rob Simmelkjaer: be able to run, but man, I certainly picked a
Rob Simmelkjaer: good time to not be able to run.
Becs Gentry: You did.
Rob Simmelkjaer: There have not been a lot of mornings the last
Rob Simmelkjaer: couple of months that I've woken up and looked outside
Rob Simmelkjaer: at the snow all around, the subzero temperatures and thought
Rob Simmelkjaer: to myself, " Gosh, I really wish I could run this morning."
Becs Gentry: It's disgusting. Yeah, I know. A friend of mine put
Becs Gentry: up a post, I think it was yesterday evening, she
Becs Gentry: went for a run and she was like, " 42 degrees
Becs Gentry: feels like a hug." I was like, " Yeah, I'm sure,"
Becs Gentry: because it's just been just, it's treacherous from what I
Becs Gentry: saw. I wasn't here last week when the wind was
Becs Gentry: howling through the city. And where we are here at
Becs Gentry: Peloton Studios, we're on 10th Avenue, and I think there
Becs Gentry: was a lot of Instagram videos of people getting literally blown over by
Becs Gentry: icy cold wind. They couldn't walk. Or they say it's a wind tunnel
Becs Gentry: when it's a still day, this road. But oh my
Becs Gentry: gosh, I can't even imagine running and that brings us segment...
Becs Gentry: What's it called? Segue. It's a segue, a beautiful segue
Becs Gentry: onto the unfortunate fact is that, to keep people safe
Becs Gentry: and healthy, New York Road Runners has had to cancel
Becs Gentry: a few runs, and it's annoying. Yes. It's really sad
Becs Gentry: and it's really annoying, especially if you've been training for
Becs Gentry: it, but trust me, you don't want to be catching
Becs Gentry: a chill when you're out there and having to take
Becs Gentry: days off work when you only get a handful of
Becs Gentry: PTO days anyway and sick days. Just, this is a
Becs Gentry: be thankful for safety sort of thing. But you can
Becs Gentry: talk more about that, Rob, because in the end, that's
Becs Gentry: your final decision.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah, it is. But frankly, none of them have been
Rob Simmelkjaer: hard decisions. The last three weeks now, we've canceled races. The
Rob Simmelkjaer: Gridiron... Sorry, the most recent was the Gridiron four- miler,
Rob Simmelkjaer: the Manhattan 10K the week before that, the Fred Lebow
Rob Simmelkjaer: half the week before that. It just has not been
Rob Simmelkjaer: runnable conditions. We've gotten a little bit unlucky. But you
Rob Simmelkjaer: know, it's not the runnability so much as it is
Rob Simmelkjaer: the ability for our volunteers and our staff, the ones
Rob Simmelkjaer: who are not running.
Becs Gentry: I was going to say, yeah.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Because let's face it, if you dress the right way and
Rob Simmelkjaer: you warm up the right way, you can run in
Rob Simmelkjaer: zero degrees. You can do it. You're going to warm up.
Becs Gentry: Got to be smart.
Rob Simmelkjaer: As long as you're smart, and the way you dress and the
Rob Simmelkjaer: way you prepare yourself, you can handle that. Most people
Rob Simmelkjaer: can run in some pretty cold temperatures. But that's not
Rob Simmelkjaer: the reason we've had to cancel these races. It's that
Rob Simmelkjaer: we've got hundreds, or thousands in some cases, of volunteers
Rob Simmelkjaer: and staff that have to be out there, and they
Rob Simmelkjaer: are not running. They are standing around.
Becs Gentry: No.
Rob Simmelkjaer: They are showing up at these race sites, by the
Rob Simmelkjaer: way, the staff, at 2: 00 in the morning to start
Rob Simmelkjaer: to set up. And so, we just cannot put people
Rob Simmelkjaer: out there in those situations. It's not fair to them.
Rob Simmelkjaer: It's not healthy. In some cases, just not even possible.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I mean, if you set up a water station right
Rob Simmelkjaer: now at 6: 00 in the morning , by race time,
Rob Simmelkjaer: you're looking at a bunch of cups of ice, right?
Rob Simmelkjaer: So, what good is that? So you just cannot put people...
Becs Gentry: Could tell you from personal experience, not good.
Rob Simmelkjaer: No, it's not good. So it certainly bummed us out to have
Rob Simmelkjaer: to cancel a third straight race this past Sunday, the
Rob Simmelkjaer: Gridiron Four- Miler, presented by the Flag Art Foundation. But
Rob Simmelkjaer: we had some good news on the tail of that,
Rob Simmelkjaer: which is...
Becs Gentry: Oh, yeah?
Rob Simmelkjaer: And this is a rare thing. With a great thanks to
Rob Simmelkjaer: our friends in New York City at City Hall and
Rob Simmelkjaer: the Parks Department, we were actually given a very rare
Rob Simmelkjaer: additional permit to run an additional race on Saturday, February
Rob Simmelkjaer: 21st. So, coming right up, coming right up in fact.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And this is actually the typical date of the Al
Rob Simmelkjaer: Gordon race. We had to move that because of a
Rob Simmelkjaer: scheduling conflict. The scheduling conflict went away. We got lucky
Rob Simmelkjaer: there. And so, now we're able to have a rescheduled
Rob Simmelkjaer: Gridiron, now 5K, presented by the Flag Art Foundation on 9:
Rob Simmelkjaer: 00 AM in Prospect Park, Brooklyn on Saturday, February 21st. So,
Rob Simmelkjaer: this is exciting.
Becs Gentry: Hilly.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And it's going to be... By the way, what's great about this, Becs, is it's going to
Rob Simmelkjaer: be free, as well. So, anybody who missed one of
Rob Simmelkjaer: these races that we had to cancel over the last
Rob Simmelkjaer: few weeks, or pretty much anybody, we're going to open
Rob Simmelkjaer: this up to public registration, and anybody's going to be
Rob Simmelkjaer: able to sign up and run this. It is not a
Rob Simmelkjaer: 9+ 1 race. And if you listened to the episode
Rob Simmelkjaer: a couple of weeks ago where we did our town
Rob Simmelkjaer: hall, Becs, I missed you grilling me, but I had
Rob Simmelkjaer: Juliette Morris, our chief marketing and digital officer talking to me.
Becs Gentry: She did a great job.
Rob Simmelkjaer: She did a fantastic job, and she knows, because she's
Rob Simmelkjaer: in there on the inner workings of a lot of
Rob Simmelkjaer: this stuff, she knows exactly what to ask as well.
Rob Simmelkjaer: So we had a great conversation about some of these
Rob Simmelkjaer: things. And one of the things I said is that
Rob Simmelkjaer: we want to have more not- 9+ 1 races, or
Rob Simmelkjaer: at least the nine part of it, which is, it doesn't
Rob Simmelkjaer: count for your one of nine if you're trying to
Rob Simmelkjaer: qualify for the Marathon. It counts for the plus- one
Rob Simmelkjaer: volunteer opportunity, but not for the one of nine. So
Rob Simmelkjaer: this is going to be a race like that, which
Rob Simmelkjaer: is great because it's going to make it accessible and
Rob Simmelkjaer: easy for folks to sign up, because we're not expecting this
Rob Simmelkjaer: to sell out in 30 seconds flat as so many
Rob Simmelkjaer: of the races do. And so, it's going to be
Rob Simmelkjaer: a chance for folks to get out there, and hopefully
Rob Simmelkjaer: by then have a more reasonable set of temperatures to
Rob Simmelkjaer: go out and run in on February 21st. So, check
Rob Simmelkjaer: your email.
Becs Gentry: Absolutely.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Stay in touch with our socials. There'll be a lot
Rob Simmelkjaer: more information coming out about opportunities to register for the
Rob Simmelkjaer: Gridiron event, now a 5K, presented by the Flag Art Foundation.
Becs Gentry: We love that. And I'm so glad you mentioned the volunteers,
Becs Gentry: because it is truly not something that you think about.
Becs Gentry: And I'm not saying that's a selfish thing with runners.
Becs Gentry: It's just, you think about you, literally, of like, " Damn, this is
Becs Gentry: my... I trained for this." And we say this, hundreds
Becs Gentry: of episodes, the volunteers are what makes it happen. So,
Becs Gentry: so grateful for them. And I just wanted to do a
Becs Gentry: little Peloton update for you all, because if you listened
Becs Gentry: to our live podcast from Hard Rock Cafe a few
Becs Gentry: weeks ago with my colleague Alex Kowalski, he was training
Becs Gentry: and was going to be competing in the Fred Lebow
Becs Gentry: half, and I messaged him when it was canceled. I
Becs Gentry: was like, " Dude, no, I'm so sorry. I know you've
Becs Gentry: really worked your behind..."
Rob Simmelkjaer: I was thinking about him when we canceled. That was such a bummer.
Becs Gentry: Such a bummer. He went out that morning by himself,
Becs Gentry: of his own accord, because he's just that type of
Becs Gentry: guy, which is kind of why I messaged him, because
Becs Gentry: I knew full stop that he would have definitely still
Becs Gentry: gone out to try and run. And he... I want to try
Becs Gentry: and show you guys this picture, because...
Rob Simmelkjaer: Look at that.
Becs Gentry: There he is.
Rob Simmelkjaer: For those watching on YouTube, you can see a very
Rob Simmelkjaer: frozen face. So he ran, did he run the 13.1 that morning?
Becs Gentry: He did. He did. He did it in just under
Becs Gentry: 80 minutes. He said the first seven were doable. " First
Becs Gentry: seven were okay, but the conditions were garbage." I'm quoting
Becs Gentry: him here. I'm reading the text message. " Ended up just
Becs Gentry: under 80 total, look like this at the end," and
Becs Gentry: sent that picture. I was just like, " That is a trooper." And
Becs Gentry: so, if you're an Alex fan and you were following
Becs Gentry: along, there's your little update for it.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I love that. Thank you so much. And I hope a lot of folks did go out and
Rob Simmelkjaer: do that, because again, you can run in these conditions.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And by the way, I appreciate the understanding. We've seen, people really do
Rob Simmelkjaer: get it, on social media, in the various places where
Rob Simmelkjaer: we've been posting these cancellations. People have understood. They've gotten
Rob Simmelkjaer: it. They know the volunteers and the staff and the
Rob Simmelkjaer: role they play in these events. So, want to appreciate
Rob Simmelkjaer: everybody out there for understanding, and hopefully this is it.
Rob Simmelkjaer: This is like a year's worth or more of cancellations
Rob Simmelkjaer: we've had in like a month. So I really hope that
Rob Simmelkjaer: we're done with these for a while, as the weather
Rob Simmelkjaer: does show a bit of a warming trend. And speaking
Rob Simmelkjaer: of warming things up, we're going to be inside with
Rob Simmelkjaer: club night tonight, the night that this podcast drops, on
Rob Simmelkjaer: Thursday, February 12th. This is such a fun event for
Rob Simmelkjaer: all of our club community runners out there. Every year,
Rob Simmelkjaer: we have this event where the clubs and others who
Rob Simmelkjaer: are not in clubs all come together for our big
Rob Simmelkjaer: awards night. We give out awards to some of the
Rob Simmelkjaer: most accomplished runners in all the various age groups in
Rob Simmelkjaer: our running community. We give out awards to the clubs
Rob Simmelkjaer: for team spirit and things like that. We give out
Rob Simmelkjaer: a great award for athletes with disabilities, presented by Achilles.
Rob Simmelkjaer: So, we just have such a fun night. It's the
Rob Simmelkjaer: chance for all the runners to get dressed up and
Rob Simmelkjaer: have a great time together, celebrating each other, their clubs,
Rob Simmelkjaer: and one of my favorite nights of the year. So
Rob Simmelkjaer: that'll be happening tonight, and if you're listening to the
Rob Simmelkjaer: podcast and you see me out there, I'll be kind
Rob Simmelkjaer: of there with Ted Metellus. We'll be doing our dog
Rob Simmelkjaer: and pony show, giving out awards. Please make sure to
Rob Simmelkjaer: come up and say hi. I always looking forward to
Rob Simmelkjaer: seeing folks on club night.
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Rob Simmelkjaer: Dr. Jordan Metzl has spent decades at the intersection of
Rob Simmelkjaer: medicine and running. As a sports medicine physician at New
Rob Simmelkjaer: York's Hospital for Special Surgery, he's treated thousands of runners,
Rob Simmelkjaer: and as a runner himself, he's completed dozens of marathons
Rob Simmelkjaer: and multiple Ironman triathlons. His new book, Push, looks at
Rob Simmelkjaer: why staying consistent with movement can be so difficult, even
Rob Simmelkjaer: for people who already identify as active. Drawing on science,
Rob Simmelkjaer: patients' stories and his own experiences, Metzl, Dr. Metzl, focuses
Rob Simmelkjaer: on motivation, fear, and belief, and how they show up
Rob Simmelkjaer: over years of running. Dr. Jordan Metzl also happens to
Rob Simmelkjaer: be my doctor right now at HSS. And so, Doctor,
Rob Simmelkjaer: it's a pleasure to have you on Set the Pace. Welcome.
Dr. Metzl: Well, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be
Dr. Metzl: here, and I hope this is helpful for people as
Dr. Metzl: they listen and hopefully run along in the process.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I hope I get a free appointment for this podcast. We'll
Rob Simmelkjaer: talk about that after the show.
Dr. Metzl: Always. Always.
Rob Simmelkjaer: It's great to have you on with us, and I've
Rob Simmelkjaer: had a chance to come to some of your book
Rob Simmelkjaer: launch events. You and I know each other pretty well.
Rob Simmelkjaer: So I guess I want to start with the fundamental
Rob Simmelkjaer: question, Dr. Metzl. Why? Why did you want to take
Rob Simmelkjaer: the time out of your really busy schedule as a doctor,
Rob Simmelkjaer: you do a lot of other things in the running
Rob Simmelkjaer: community here in New York, to write a book right now?
Dr. Metzl: Well, thank you so much for showing up for those
Dr. Metzl: things. I mean, I feel like... This is actually my
Dr. Metzl: fifth book about the intersection of medicine and fitness and
Dr. Metzl: preventive health. And each of the previous four books have
Dr. Metzl: been kind of somewhat specific, targeted to taking care of
Dr. Metzl: your achy knees, or a book for runners, or a
Dr. Metzl: book on the medicine of exercise in concept. But this
Dr. Metzl: is the first book which is basically focusing on the
Dr. Metzl: neck up, which is basically the brain. And the reason
Dr. Metzl: I wanted to do that is that I see literally
Dr. Metzl: thousands of people every year, in both my office and
Dr. Metzl: in my fitness communities, around the idea of kind of they want to be
Dr. Metzl: active and want to move. And what I've kind of
Dr. Metzl: become increasingly interested in is what keeps them going, and
Dr. Metzl: how, from my vantage point as a doctor, can I
Dr. Metzl: help get them not only on the road and on
Dr. Metzl: their field of choice, but keep them there? And that
Dr. Metzl: really boils down to motivation. What do we know about
Dr. Metzl: motivation? And I'll tell you, it's much more challenging than
Dr. Metzl: looking at a torn ACL on an MRI. An ACL
Dr. Metzl: shows up, it's torn, you have a torn ACL. Motivation
Dr. Metzl: is so... It's slippery, because you don't even know exactly
Dr. Metzl: what it is. Some people have it, they've had it,
Dr. Metzl: they lose it, they regain it. It comes and goes
Dr. Metzl: throughout our lives. And so it's a nebulous subject that
Dr. Metzl: I find really interesting, so I wanted to kind of
Dr. Metzl: learn more about it.
Becs Gentry: It's so interesting. I've admired you from afar, as we've
Becs Gentry: never really met in person, and read a lot of
Becs Gentry: the things you've written. And as a runner who runs
Becs Gentry: a lot of miles, both on camera and off camera,
Becs Gentry: it's really incredible to have a physician of your caliber,
Becs Gentry: and you're an athlete yourself, so you do get it. But
Becs Gentry: to be putting out a book there, which is talking about
Becs Gentry: the science behind the brain. And because perhaps you've seen a
Becs Gentry: lot of people, I would guess, who know exercise matters
Becs Gentry: and certain things do matter and still struggle to get
Becs Gentry: it done, right? So, was there a certain runner or
Becs Gentry: patient who changed how you personally thought or felt about
Becs Gentry: motivation and helped you kind of craft and shape the
Becs Gentry: ideas for this book?
Dr. Metzl: Yeah, great question. Different than some of my other books,
Dr. Metzl: which were very much like, all right, Patient X hurt
Dr. Metzl: their knee, this is why their knee hurts, and this
Dr. Metzl: is what we would do to fix their knee. This
Dr. Metzl: was a much longer project. This book took about five
Dr. Metzl: years to work on, and the reason it took so
Dr. Metzl: long was that I wanted to try and pull patient
Dr. Metzl: stories and try and learn from those patients' stories, and
Dr. Metzl: to give the information I learned from those patients. The
Dr. Metzl: book starts with a woman who basically lost her husband
Dr. Metzl: and received a breast cancer diagnosis in a two- year
Dr. Metzl: period of time, and she was profoundly depressed and she
Dr. Metzl: basically was thinking like, this may be the end. And
Dr. Metzl: so, what she did ism she tied on her shoes
Dr. Metzl: and she went out the door and started walking. Then
Dr. Metzl: she started slow jogging. Then she joined New York Road
Dr. Metzl: Runners club, and eventually she ran her first marathon at
Dr. Metzl: age 70. By her mid- 80s, she'd run 14 marathons
Dr. Metzl: and is teaching a kettlebell class for 80- plus people, 80- year- old-
Dr. Metzl: plus people. And the whole idea of her, and the
Dr. Metzl: reason I start the book with her, is she is
Dr. Metzl: the embodiment of motivation and the embodiment of my message,
Dr. Metzl: which is that, listen, in the Exercise Cure, the book
Dr. Metzl: I did 15 years ago, I went through the science
Dr. Metzl: of the medicinal benefit of exercise and why it's so
Dr. Metzl: beneficial for you. And I think people largely know it's
Dr. Metzl: great for your brain, it's great for your heart, it's
Dr. Metzl: great for your blood pressure, it's great for your cancer
Dr. Metzl: prevention. People know that information now. The problem is, even
Dr. Metzl: if they know it, how do they then start to
Dr. Metzl: do it, and what can we get them to do
Dr. Metzl: it? And that really taps into motivation. And so people
Dr. Metzl: like her, and I start the book with her because
Dr. Metzl: she's an exact example of what I want to talk
Dr. Metzl: about, which is, listen, she was depressed and recovering from
Dr. Metzl: breast cancer, and so she started walking and then started jogging
Dr. Metzl: and then started becoming part of the Road Runners Club
Dr. Metzl: community, and then started goal- setting, and then started inspiring
Dr. Metzl: others. And it's a whole process of that wheel starting
Dr. Metzl: to turn from a negative situation to a positive situation.
Dr. Metzl: And that process is so interesting to me that I
Dr. Metzl: wanted to learn more about the people that I was
Dr. Metzl: seeing here every day, like John Smith with a hurt
Dr. Metzl: knee. Yeah, it's his hurt knee, but it's really affecting
Dr. Metzl: how he does everything else in his life. And that
Dr. Metzl: becomes a really interesting discussion for me and something I want
Dr. Metzl: to talk about.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. Jordan, you know, because we've talked about it, and Becs
Rob Simmelkjaer: knows, and everybody at New York Road Runners knows that this
Rob Simmelkjaer: is a key area of focus at Road Runners right
Rob Simmelkjaer: now, is this, the mental health benefits of being active
Rob Simmelkjaer: and running. And I'm really interested in that patient's story
Rob Simmelkjaer: that you just mentioned, and that moment that a person
Rob Simmelkjaer: is experiencing depression, whatever's going on in their life that's
Rob Simmelkjaer: causing them to feel that weight, and that first kind
Rob Simmelkjaer: of decision, the first spark that gets them to move
Rob Simmelkjaer: their bodies, right? Which you see so often, and this
Rob Simmelkjaer: story is another example of that kind of flipping a
Rob Simmelkjaer: switch, right? And all of a sudden, you create a
Rob Simmelkjaer: little positive momentum that you can build on and build
Rob Simmelkjaer: on and build on. And the cumulative effects of doing
Rob Simmelkjaer: that over time. What do you think, for someone who's
Rob Simmelkjaer: listening who is in that place right now, who needs
Rob Simmelkjaer: that spark, maybe they had it and maybe they had
Rob Simmelkjaer: an injury that's knocked them out for a while, maybe
Rob Simmelkjaer: this winter is getting to them, and that's a lot
Rob Simmelkjaer: of us right now, right? What can you say to
Rob Simmelkjaer: them about finding that spark to kind of like get
Rob Simmelkjaer: them moving again and flip that switch?
Dr. Metzl: It's interesting, both in the book, I have an illustration,
Dr. Metzl: and in the lectures I go out and give, I
Dr. Metzl: have a video, and the video I have is of
Dr. Metzl: about a three- year- old kid trying to get a
Dr. Metzl: tractor tire off the ground, because his siblings are off
Dr. Metzl: camera and he wants to get this tractor tire up
Dr. Metzl: and roll it across the playground. And in the book,
Dr. Metzl: I have that illustration of what I call the exercise
Dr. Metzl: wheel. And the concept is the same, which is the
Dr. Metzl: biggest amount of effort is getting that damn thing up
Dr. Metzl: off the ground. And that's the hardest part, is getting
Dr. Metzl: the wheel up and starting to turn. And once that
Dr. Metzl: wheel starts to turn, there's almost like a follow on
Dr. Metzl: effect of all of the positive behaviors which start to
Dr. Metzl: feed on themselves. And so it's exactly like the momentum.
Dr. Metzl: You can think of yourself like a ping pong ball
Dr. Metzl: in a river that once you're in the river, just
Dr. Metzl: everybody is pushing you along. And it can be frustrating,
Dr. Metzl: because if you're someone like me and many of our
Dr. Metzl: listeners who have been doing fantastic events with you guys
Dr. Metzl: and others over decades, you may look and be like, oh my
Dr. Metzl: God. Like, I was looking back, I'm like, I ran
Dr. Metzl: a 3: 04 marathon. How the hell? I can't even
Dr. Metzl: smell 3: 04 anymore. What do I do now? I'm like,
Dr. Metzl: if I can break four hours, I'm so happy. So
Dr. Metzl: I look back where I was, and it was so
Dr. Metzl: easy, but then I think 15 years from now, I'll
Dr. Metzl: give my left foot to be able to run as
Dr. Metzl: fast as I am now. And you can focus on
Dr. Metzl: I'm slower. Listen, the joy is just getting out and
Dr. Metzl: being part of a community. And so, that idea of
Dr. Metzl: getting that tractor tire up off the ground and starting
Dr. Metzl: to roll is the real differentiator. Once that thing starts
Dr. Metzl: to roll, it starts to really take on a life
Dr. Metzl: of its own and keep rolling. And I love that
Dr. Metzl: video and that concept, and it's a great question.
Becs Gentry: Yeah. It's really interesting, from my perspective as somebody who
Becs Gentry: is not qualified as a doctor of science, sport, anything,
Becs Gentry: just a lot of years of practice and a lot
Becs Gentry: of years of teaching, I find that we as instructors
Becs Gentry: talk about motivation as confidence as a different word, really.
Becs Gentry: And I love that analogy of the tractor, because it's
Becs Gentry: sort of like, I used this analogy the other day
Becs Gentry: of you can't expect confidence to be the most impressive
Becs Gentry: thing. Good doesn't mean impressive, right? You can't say that
Becs Gentry: you're good at running if you run only 26. 2
Becs Gentry: miles. That's not it. And I use the analogy of
Becs Gentry: if you want to learn guitar, you're not going to
Becs Gentry: associate good with being able to play the whole, I don't
Becs Gentry: know, Beatles, whatever, Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds song. Good is
Becs Gentry: playing one chord really, really well. So, why is it
Becs Gentry: not just good for running is lacing up and doing
Becs Gentry: five meters of running? And I love that, that motivation
Becs Gentry: is... I love that, the tractor, the wheel, just getting up.
Dr. Metzl: Getting it up and getting it going. And in my
Dr. Metzl: world, I talk about the holy grail of fitness is compliance, and the
Dr. Metzl: holy grail of compliance is smiling. If you look at
Dr. Metzl: all these fitness and wellness influencers that are kind of
Dr. Metzl: all over social media, and the one thing I'm really
Dr. Metzl: struck by, none of these damn people are smiling. They
Dr. Metzl: have great muscles, they look good, they're jacked up, but
Dr. Metzl: they're not happy. If you go to a Road Runners Club race or any running
Dr. Metzl: event, everybody's having a great, smiling. I cannot emphasize enough
Dr. Metzl: how actually smiling, it will keep people involved, not because
Dr. Metzl: you'll have great biceps or whatever, just because you're out
Dr. Metzl: being healthy, that the benefit of health is moving and the
Dr. Metzl: benefit of moving is community. And I just feel like
Dr. Metzl: that's a piece that is lost on these discussions of
Dr. Metzl: like, maximize your protein intake and do your red light
Dr. Metzl: therapy and all this other crap. The real benefit is
Dr. Metzl: being part of a community and smiling, and that's what
Dr. Metzl: will keep people coming, going out. And that's why people come
Dr. Metzl: out in January and February when it's like 10 degrees,
Dr. Metzl: it's because they're part of a community and they like
Dr. Metzl: it. It's a positive reinforcement. And that's all about getting
Dr. Metzl: that tractor tire up off the ground in the first place.
Becs Gentry: It really is. Isn't it proven though that smiling, like
Becs Gentry: scientifically proven that smiling, it doesn't mean you're " happy," quote
Becs Gentry: unquote, but if you use the muscles to smile, it
Becs Gentry: actually makes your perceived effort drop down when you're working out.
Dr. Metzl: Yeah, that's functionality, definitely. And so you see a lot
Dr. Metzl: of, from Kipchoge down, smiling. It never seems to work
Dr. Metzl: very well for me, but I fake it, but that's
Dr. Metzl: fine. But I'm talking about smiling, the smile of just
Dr. Metzl: feeling like I'm part of something that brings me joy.
Dr. Metzl: And I just can't emphasize enough. And that's why I tell
Dr. Metzl: people, listen, what I want you to do is something
Dr. Metzl: you like to do, be that running, swimming, yoga, whatever
Dr. Metzl: it is, that if you're smiling, you're much more likely
Dr. Metzl: to be consistent with what you're doing.
Becs Gentry: Yeah.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Dr. Metzl, you were just talking about, and I've heard
Rob Simmelkjaer: you talk about some of the longevity experts out there,
Rob Simmelkjaer: right? Which are people who are really focused on living
Rob Simmelkjaer: longer, right? And people have all kinds of theories about
Rob Simmelkjaer: how to achieve longevity. Maybe it's intermittent fasting, or maybe
Rob Simmelkjaer: it's sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber, whatever it is. You-
Becs Gentry: You don't do that, Rob?
Rob Simmelkjaer: I haven't gotten into that yet. I thought about it,
Rob Simmelkjaer: but it just doesn't seem like the return is there
Rob Simmelkjaer: for that. I don't know. We'll see. Maybe Jordan can
Rob Simmelkjaer: give me some ideas. But you have this idea of
Rob Simmelkjaer: health span, right? What's the difference between a lifespan and
Rob Simmelkjaer: what you call health span?
Dr. Metzl: Yeah. So I try and go into that in detail
Dr. Metzl: at the beginning of Push, because I want people to
Dr. Metzl: understand these different terms, because everybody hears about longevity, years
Dr. Metzl: lived, and health span is years lived during health. Muscle
Dr. Metzl: span is maintaining your muscle mass, which is very important.
Dr. Metzl: But we've heard a lot about this kind of longevity.
Dr. Metzl: I want to maximize longevity. And I find that quite
Dr. Metzl: ironic, because in the last 150 years, we've done amazing
Dr. Metzl: things at extending people's longevity. The average lifespan used to be
Dr. Metzl: about 42, 43 years old until the beginning of the 1800s,
Dr. Metzl: so about 150, 160 years ago, and then clean water and
Dr. Metzl: food and vaccines and antibiotics really changed this. So now
Dr. Metzl: we've got double the life expectancy, almost 80 years old.
Dr. Metzl: So the longevity movement, maybe it's like people that want
Dr. Metzl: to go faster around Central Park on their expensive bike.
Dr. Metzl: The bike may make a small bit of difference, but
Dr. Metzl: the vast majority is actually you, in your legs and
Dr. Metzl: your body and your condition. Longevity is a lot about
Dr. Metzl: the things that have got us to this point. What
Dr. Metzl: I want to focus on is healthy longevity, or health
Dr. Metzl: span, meaning I want you to maximize the years where
Dr. Metzl: you are healthy. And we can do so much to
Dr. Metzl: basically shape that discussion and keep people healthy through diet
Dr. Metzl: and sleep and regular exercise and being part of a
Dr. Metzl: community, and all these things that we know, which are
Dr. Metzl: free, by the way, and we know can tremendously affect
Dr. Metzl: healthy longevity. The problem we're running into is what's called
Dr. Metzl: the health span- lifespan gap, which is the number of
Dr. Metzl: years where people keep living in poor health is getting
Dr. Metzl: longer, not shorter, in the United States. And so, I
Dr. Metzl: want people to think about what can I do? And
Dr. Metzl: so, I go through different patient stories, such as the
Dr. Metzl: guy who I just saw about a month ago now,
Dr. Metzl: who's 91, that's out in Central Park every single day
Dr. Metzl: moving around, walking. He rides his exercise bike at home.
Dr. Metzl: He is on zero medications. He's what we call a super-
Dr. Metzl: ager. He's basically, he's living on no medication, very active.
Dr. Metzl: And these super ages are people between the ages of 80 and 100
Dr. Metzl: who have no chronic disease compared to controls. Most people
Dr. Metzl: over 80 have two or more chronic diseases. And so,
Dr. Metzl: there was a study looking at their genome sequencing. Were
Dr. Metzl: they genetically different because they were living so long so healthily?
Dr. Metzl: And people thought, yeah, well, you're just genetically superior, that's
Dr. Metzl: why. But in fact, that's not true at all, that
Dr. Metzl: these super- agers have no genomic difference from the average
Dr. Metzl: person. What they have different are habits, and the idea
Dr. Metzl: of being consistent with movement and community and smiling and
Dr. Metzl: sleeping and eating and all those things. There's no guarantee
Dr. Metzl: you're going to live one day longer, but the idea
Dr. Metzl: is maximizing your healthy longevity, and I think there's a lot we can
Dr. Metzl: think about in that realm.
Becs Gentry: That's incredibly interesting, and I've never sort of heard them
Becs Gentry: put like that. It's similar, but so not, in a
Becs Gentry: way. And we are flooded with longevity experts. If you
Becs Gentry: can't see me, I'm air quoting " experts" because there's a
Becs Gentry: few people out there who put that facade on. And
Becs Gentry: to me, it sets up people for disappointment and failure,
Becs Gentry: the more things you add, when, from what I'm hearing
Becs Gentry: from you, it's actually quite simple, really. It's getting the
Becs Gentry: motivation to get out there and move and smile, and
Becs Gentry: just get your body functioning in quite a... I don't want to
Becs Gentry: say basic, but my brain's failing me for a better
Becs Gentry: word right now, but a basic manner. We're not telling
Becs Gentry: people to go and run miles every day. Walk around
Becs Gentry: Central Park like that gentleman does, and he's aging gracefully,
Becs Gentry: and not that we don't know this, but probably not
Becs Gentry: sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber and putting his red light
Becs Gentry: mask on every night.
Dr. Metzl: Correct. He's not. I can vouch for that.
Becs Gentry: So let's talk about the motivation, the side of things
Becs Gentry: that people are probably going to look to Push, your
Becs Gentry: book, for, Dr. Jordan, because as a runner yourself, have
Becs Gentry: you actually ever gone through a period of time when
Becs Gentry: running did not feel fun for you, and when you didn't
Becs Gentry: want to go out or you didn't have that motivation
Becs Gentry: to get out and smile and do it? And what did you learn
Becs Gentry: from it if that happened?
Dr. Metzl: All the time. The idea of titling the book Push was that I wanted people to
Dr. Metzl: think about learning to evaluate their motivation and learn to
Dr. Metzl: push themselves physically, psychologically and physiologically, so three different things.
Dr. Metzl: So physically, being able to kind of push their body,
Dr. Metzl: and the reason I talk about that is that we
Dr. Metzl: know that if you build and maintain your skeletal muscle
Dr. Metzl: mass across your lifespan, called your muscle span, that is
Dr. Metzl: linked to kind of healthier longevity and healthy longevity going
Dr. Metzl: forward. If you push yourself psychologically, I deeply believe that
Dr. Metzl: those pushes teach people how to push in all aspects
Dr. Metzl: of their life, so in job and in relationships and
Dr. Metzl: in their life in general. So learning to basically become
Dr. Metzl: comfortable being uncomfortable is very important. And then physiologically, we
Dr. Metzl: increasingly know that exercise intensity, why is it that if you
Dr. Metzl: do kind of half mile repeats around the reservoir and
Dr. Metzl: you're like, this sucks, but you're huffing and puffing and
Dr. Metzl: you're training, and then when you start running a pace,
Dr. Metzl: it's like, oh my God, I feel so much better
Dr. Metzl: because you are physiologically pushing your training to make your
Dr. Metzl: race pace easier because you start pushing your physiology. So
Dr. Metzl: it's kind of physical, mental and physiologic pushing. And so,
Dr. Metzl: the idea of push is learning how to push yourself
Dr. Metzl: in all those different categories. That being said, to your
Dr. Metzl: question, I have a lot of times when I'm like,
Dr. Metzl: dude, I just do not feel like doing this. And that's
Dr. Metzl: where, for me, I've found that things like many of
Dr. Metzl: the running organizations around the world do a marathon, maybe
Dr. Metzl: a half- marathon and that's it. But the beauty of
Dr. Metzl: New York Road Runners Club is that we have events
Dr. Metzl: almost every week, all year long. Nobody gets that. And so,
Dr. Metzl: to be able to do that and to have those
Dr. Metzl: things, giving yourself a little goal means, all right, I
Dr. Metzl: got this 10K coming. I've got the New York City
Dr. Metzl: Half coming up. I want to make sure I don't
Dr. Metzl: totally mess the bed. I have that goal coming up.
Dr. Metzl: I want to make sure I'm somewhat ready for that. And
Dr. Metzl: so, giving yourself a small goal for me has been
Dr. Metzl: very, very helpful, and for a number of my patients as
Dr. Metzl: well. It does not have to be a running goal,
Dr. Metzl: though for me it is. It's just some kind of
Dr. Metzl: goal. And that's what I've used to help get me
Dr. Metzl: over these kind of motivational troughs in my life.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah, absolutely. We'd love to get back to having an
Rob Simmelkjaer: event just about every week, if we could stop canceling
Rob Simmelkjaer: every weekend because of this extreme cold weather. That would
Rob Simmelkjaer: be nice. Hopefully.
Dr. Metzl: It's coming.
Becs Gentry: Back to virtual races, Rob.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Exactly. It's been a rough winter. Jordan, you talk also
Rob Simmelkjaer: in Push about literally that idea of pushing ourselves a
Rob Simmelkjaer: little harder, closer to the limits. And this is something
Rob Simmelkjaer: that I find interesting. We've talked about it over the
Rob Simmelkjaer: years on this podcast. The difference between, okay, movement, which
Rob Simmelkjaer: is great. And we had a New York Times journalist on
Rob Simmelkjaer: once who had written an article about the difference between
Rob Simmelkjaer: walking and running. And she said, and I've heard you
Rob Simmelkjaer: say, that there's a huge step up in terms of
Rob Simmelkjaer: the likelihood of you're living a healthy life. If you
Rob Simmelkjaer: go from sitting on the couch to walking, that's a
Rob Simmelkjaer: huge improvement, just moving, and moving your body. But what
Rob Simmelkjaer: about that additional benefit that we get from pushing ourselves
Rob Simmelkjaer: to the limit of our exertion, even if it's just
Rob Simmelkjaer: for short periods of time? Can you talk about that
Rob Simmelkjaer: a little bit and what that does for us when
Rob Simmelkjaer: we really push ourselves and our heart rates up to
Rob Simmelkjaer: something close to our max?
Dr. Metzl: Absolutely. Great question. First of all, from a health point
Dr. Metzl: of view, there's two things, just kind of health and fitness.
Dr. Metzl: From a health point of view, going from being a
Dr. Metzl: potato on the couch to walking is the biggest delta
Dr. Metzl: in terms of health metrics in general. So heart disease,
Dr. Metzl: cancer, diabetes, neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer's, those things, from nothing
Dr. Metzl: to something, that's the biggest difference. And we used to
Dr. Metzl: think that going from moderate intensity, like walking or slow
Dr. Metzl: jogging, and there are kind of the several zones of training,
Dr. Metzl: maybe some of the listeners are familiar with their training
Dr. Metzl: zones, but I like to break it down into like,
Dr. Metzl: I can talk comfortably, zone one, I can huff and
Dr. Metzl: puff a bit, but I can still have a conversation,
Dr. Metzl: kind of marathon pace, zone two, and I'm like, don't
Dr. Metzl: talk to me, I'm going to puke, that's zone three.
Dr. Metzl: Those are the kind of three zones, mild, moderate, and intense.
Dr. Metzl: And we used to think that basically, if you were
Dr. Metzl: in this kind of moderate zone, or mild to moderate
Dr. Metzl: zone, that 150 minutes per week of exercise, 30 minutes
Dr. Metzl: a day, walking, slow jogging, and then if you did intense
Dr. Metzl: exercise, it was kind of a two to one conversion,
Dr. Metzl: meaning that if you did something like burpees or sprinting,
Dr. Metzl: you could do half the amount of time. And that
Dr. Metzl: idea was based on the relative energy expenditure, called the
Dr. Metzl: MET, which is used to calculate how much energy you
Dr. Metzl: spend. It turns out that from a health point of
Dr. Metzl: view, and this study just came out recently, looking at
Dr. Metzl: the energy expenditure and the effects of health, and it
Dr. Metzl: turns out there's like a six to one for metabolic
Dr. Metzl: disease and heart disease prevention, meaning that if you're intense,
Dr. Metzl: it's six times more valuable for disease prevention, not two
Dr. Metzl: or three times more. So the whole idea of exercise
Dr. Metzl: intensity is that intensity from a health outcome is very
Dr. Metzl: beneficial, even different than just walking, better than nothing. Getting
Dr. Metzl: your heart rate up much better than just doing a
Dr. Metzl: slow, steady state. So I want people to think about,
Dr. Metzl: how can I get my heart rate up during the
Dr. Metzl: day? There's a concept called variable intensity lifestyle physical activity
Dr. Metzl: or VILPA. And that acronym is basically, how do I
Dr. Metzl: get my heart rate up during the day? It doesn't
Dr. Metzl: have to be exercise. It means like, I take the
Dr. Metzl: stairs at work, or I get to a red light
Dr. Metzl: and I do squats, or air squats at work when
Dr. Metzl: I'm sitting around for a while. Just getting your heart
Dr. Metzl: rate up for little periods of time throughout the day,
Dr. Metzl: it adds up and that's very beneficial. We increasingly recognize
Dr. Metzl: these exercise snacks, or small bouts of exercise, can be
Dr. Metzl: much more impactful than we previously realized. And so, thinking
Dr. Metzl: about that around this idea of starting to get my
Dr. Metzl: heart rate up, both with my training and with my
Dr. Metzl: daily activities. So I want people to be comfortable thinking
Dr. Metzl: about, how do I start pushing my heart rate? How
Dr. Metzl: do I do my cat hill repeats, even though it
Dr. Metzl: sucks and I want to throw up at the top?
Dr. Metzl: Because that idea of getting comfortable being uncomfortable, pushing your
Dr. Metzl: physiology, is very important, not only for your run performance,
Dr. Metzl: but I think for your overall fitness and/ or health
Dr. Metzl: as well.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. And you mentioned the cat hill repeats, and for runners,
Rob Simmelkjaer: right, that to me is a big part of the
Rob Simmelkjaer: takeaway, is you'll have some coaches who will give a
Rob Simmelkjaer: workout and say, " Hey, I want you to run 30
Rob Simmelkjaer: minutes, whatever at such and such pace," but maybe add
Rob Simmelkjaer: in those, what they'll call strides at the end, right?
Rob Simmelkjaer: Just give me 10 really hard strides, or give me
Rob Simmelkjaer: something really hard here and there, right? Just that little bit
Rob Simmelkjaer: of push, and the impact that that can have above
Rob Simmelkjaer: and beyond what you're doing on a typical run.
Dr. Metzl: And I think that piece, by the way, Rob and Becs,
Dr. Metzl: that's where the community piece comes in, because I've been
Dr. Metzl: teaching these fitness communities now for 15 years in addition
Dr. Metzl: to my other stuff, and what I've noticed is that
Dr. Metzl: people, no matter if they say like, " I want to
Dr. Metzl: do three sets of 10 burpees," and you say you want
Dr. Metzl: to do it, but it's impossible to do it consistently
Dr. Metzl: with intensity by yourself. You may say you want it, but you get
Dr. Metzl: to the first set and you're like, " Forget it. I'll just do like
Dr. Metzl: five." But if there's people around you... So what I
Dr. Metzl: have started doing in my classes is I'll have one
Dr. Metzl: burper and I'll have one yeller. And basically, if you're
Dr. Metzl: in a partner with somebody, one person's doing burpees, one
Dr. Metzl: person is literally kneeling on the ground in front of
Dr. Metzl: them, screaming their name. And people knock off those 10
Dr. Metzl: much easier when they're accountable to somebody else and they're
Dr. Metzl: part of a group. And so, those kind of dynamics are
Dr. Metzl: in play with all types of communal involvement, and the
Dr. Metzl: idea of pushing yourself becomes much easier. That's why I'm
Dr. Metzl: a big fan of group activities as a big piece
Dr. Metzl: of this idea of learning to push yourself, because it
Dr. Metzl: just becomes much easier in a group to push.
Becs Gentry: Absolutely. Okay, we've got ourselves pushed out the door, for want
Becs Gentry: of a better word there. We've got the motivation flowing,
Becs Gentry: but you then, continue the journey with us, Dr. Metzl.
Becs Gentry: You have taken it even further, and you talk about
Becs Gentry: this thing called the boring middle. And this is my
Becs Gentry: favorite. This is just my favorite thing to talk about,
Becs Gentry: because this is when people, I think, especially when they're
Becs Gentry: new to running, this is when they fail. And failing,
Becs Gentry: if you've ever listened to anything I've ever taught in
Becs Gentry: classes, which is probably not something you've done, but I
Becs Gentry: say FAIL as an acronym for first attempt in learning.
Becs Gentry: And it's when people want to bail, because it gets
Becs Gentry: boring and we forget that endurance is actually a boring
Becs Gentry: set of repetition over and over again. But talk to
Becs Gentry: us from a scientific standpoint, what does that moment actually
Becs Gentry: look like physiologically, rather than physically, which probably a lot
Becs Gentry: of our runners know about?
Dr. Metzl: One of the things I learned in studying motivation, motivational
Dr. Metzl: tendencies, a couple things I'll throw at you. Number one
Dr. Metzl: is I have a lot in Push about what's called
Dr. Metzl: lowering the cost to act, which is a behavioral economics
Dr. Metzl: term about becoming consistent with my choices. And so, things
Dr. Metzl: like joining a group, or having fun, or getting a
Dr. Metzl: new pair of running shoes, or joining a Road Runners
Dr. Metzl: club, running class or organization, group run, those kind of
Dr. Metzl: things make me want to go and be consistent. And
Dr. Metzl: then, as we kind of get to that boring middle
Dr. Metzl: piece, some combination of people get used to what they're
Dr. Metzl: doing, the actual process of getting involved in an event and/
Dr. Metzl: or getting involved in a training cycle, and they kind
Dr. Metzl: of feel like they have no oomph to keep going.
Dr. Metzl: That's where all these kind of lowering the cost to
Dr. Metzl: act concepts, I think become really important for people. That's
Dr. Metzl: where they can kind of lean into the things that
Dr. Metzl: make them want to go and keep being part of
Dr. Metzl: what they're doing. I think all those are ideas around
Dr. Metzl: the idea of how I can kind of mastermind my
Dr. Metzl: own motivational intent. I increasingly believe that motivation is something
Dr. Metzl: which is largely based on setting up the right behavior
Dr. Metzl: patterns and not, I'm not motivated. It's easy, well, she's
Dr. Metzl: not motivated. I got my sister and I'm doing these
Dr. Metzl: things and she's not doing it. She's just not motivated.
Dr. Metzl: It's easy to kind of look at that negatively. I
Dr. Metzl: don't believe that. I think people have to think about
Dr. Metzl: what are the motivational tendencies and wins they can put
Dr. Metzl: in their lives or somebody else's life to help keep
Dr. Metzl: them active. And so, I do a lot in terms
Dr. Metzl: of talking around what are some of the barriers in
Dr. Metzl: the people I see and what's kind of standing in
Dr. Metzl: their way, and what can we start thinking about in
Dr. Metzl: terms of making their motivational tendencies successful? And I believe
Dr. Metzl: in that.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Jordan, I want to shift a little bit and talk about
Rob Simmelkjaer: you, because you're really incredible and unusual in the range
Rob Simmelkjaer: of things that you have done. Obviously, you're an accomplished
Rob Simmelkjaer: doctor with our great partners at HSS. I first met
Rob Simmelkjaer: you as the chair of our medical advisory committee at
Rob Simmelkjaer: New York Road Runners. You lead a group of medical
Rob Simmelkjaer: professionals who have been helping advise Road Runners on matters
Rob Simmelkjaer: of health. We put together a great conference, the first
Rob Simmelkjaer: ever conference before the marathon last year, which was focused
Rob Simmelkjaer: on runner health and safety, and that did incredibly well.
Rob Simmelkjaer: You've also created these communities as well, the Iron Strength
Rob Simmelkjaer: community, which is something that you help create, does exactly
Rob Simmelkjaer: that. And I didn't even know this until I went to your
Rob Simmelkjaer: book party the other day. You've got these parties essentially
Rob Simmelkjaer: out there around New York, where hundreds and thousands of
Rob Simmelkjaer: people are showing up to move their bodies together, and
Rob Simmelkjaer: that's truly a community you've created. Where does all this
Rob Simmelkjaer: come from, Jordan? What is the motivation that you have
Rob Simmelkjaer: to do all of this stuff? Because it just seems
Rob Simmelkjaer: like you're living like, three lives at once.
Dr. Metzl: I don't want to get bored. I don't know. I
Dr. Metzl: just feel like... That's so kind of you. I'm blushing
Dr. Metzl: over here. But I feel like... I come from a
Dr. Metzl: family of doctors. I dedicate Push to my amazing dad
Dr. Metzl: and just, I guess, it's a wonderful question. I think
Dr. Metzl: it starts with my dad's story, because my dad was
Dr. Metzl: born in a small little town in Austria in 1935,
Dr. Metzl: and he and my grandparents luckily escaped the Nazis and
Dr. Metzl: escaped to Switzerland, where a lot of our family was
Dr. Metzl: killed in Europe, but they escaped and survived and came
Dr. Metzl: to America in 1948, got sent out to Kansas City.
Dr. Metzl: And with that kind of backstory, coming here, he ended
Dr. Metzl: up embracing life and embracing every positive thing about life.
Dr. Metzl: People with that kind of trauma in their past sometimes
Dr. Metzl: go the other way and they end up feeling very
Dr. Metzl: negative about life, but he did the exact opposite. And
Dr. Metzl: so, by the time he came back out here to
Dr. Metzl: New York and went to medical school, came here for
Dr. Metzl: residency, met my mom, they moved back to Kansas City,
Dr. Metzl: had four boys, all Doctors Metzl. And the idea was
Dr. Metzl: that we were kind of pushed, but we didn't know
Dr. Metzl: we were pushed. We were pushed to go to every
Dr. Metzl: event, go to baseball games, football games, classical music, family
Dr. Metzl: trips. Every experience was about pushing. And I didn't realize
Dr. Metzl: I grew up being pushed. I just was raised to
Dr. Metzl: basically try and be like a sponge and just soak
Dr. Metzl: up everything, and then as a family of healthcare professionals
Dr. Metzl: to give back. And so to me, I think I'm,
Dr. Metzl: as I kind of reflect on his passing this past
Dr. Metzl: year at 90, and I'm so lucky to have had
Dr. Metzl: that influence as my dad. I think that his influence
Dr. Metzl: on my life and my brothers' lives really helped teach me
Dr. Metzl: about the joy of not only having every experience, but
Dr. Metzl: then both my parents, my mom is a psychotherapist, and
Dr. Metzl: the idea of giving back to others. And so, I think everything
Dr. Metzl: that I do is an extension of learning how to
Dr. Metzl: give to others. And so, when I started my sports
Dr. Metzl: medicine practice and then realized that we talked about getting
Dr. Metzl: people out and moving, but there wasn't really a mechanism
Dr. Metzl: to prescribe the medicine of exercise, beyond saying exercise a
Dr. Metzl: half hour a day. I'm like, you know what? I'm
Dr. Metzl: going to start getting people exercising with me, because it's
Dr. Metzl: more fun to do it together. And I know that
Dr. Metzl: plyometrics make me run faster and feel better and my
Dr. Metzl: knees don't hurt, but they kind of suck to do by myself.
Dr. Metzl: So how do I start a community? And so, we
Dr. Metzl: started really small, and then started experimenting with different types
Dr. Metzl: of exercise classes and venues, and our Iron Stream community
Dr. Metzl: now has about 55,000 people, and we get to do
Dr. Metzl: these great workout classes all over the place, on different
Dr. Metzl: great venues, and they're always free. And it's all about
Dr. Metzl: this exercise prescription. And so, I guess it's a long
Dr. Metzl: way of saying that I feel like I'm lucky to
Dr. Metzl: be in a position to influence other people's lives by
Dr. Metzl: giving, and that I find it really gratifying. And so,
Dr. Metzl: I feel like this is an extension of that.
Becs Gentry: That's amazing. And congratulations on such a huge number, as
Becs Gentry: well, of people training with you. That's just so great
Becs Gentry: to see people hearing what you're doing and taking action
Becs Gentry: into going together as well. So, by nature, you've spent
Becs Gentry: such a long time around real people actually moving, which
Becs Gentry: I haven't been around that many doctors, thank goodness, touch
Becs Gentry: wood, I'm not... But you seem like the real deal,
Becs Gentry: as opposed to a lot of doctors who, as you
Becs Gentry: say, way back when, you were just having to prescribe
Becs Gentry: the textbook exercise for 30 minutes a day and see what
Becs Gentry: happens sort of thing. Whereas now, you're living and breathing
Becs Gentry: it as well as it being your practice. So, when
Becs Gentry: it comes to running and how you mentioned the mental
Becs Gentry: reward that it gives you, how do you think that
Becs Gentry: running helps people stick with something in their life when
Becs Gentry: reward isn't immediately palpable?
Dr. Metzl: Yeah. I mean, I think that running for me, and
Dr. Metzl: for many of my patients, and I think we have
Dr. Metzl: good evidence on the effect of running on anxiety, depression,
Dr. Metzl: et cetera, but it's beyond that. I think it's running and/
Dr. Metzl: or exercise, getting out first thing in the morning for
Dr. Metzl: me, is a lot about kind of centering and focusing
Dr. Metzl: my day. And I'm lucky that everybody that comes to
Dr. Metzl: see me in my office, from kind of seven- year-
Dr. Metzl: old gymnasts to 85- year- old marathoners and everybody in
Dr. Metzl: between, all want to move, and they all really value
Dr. Metzl: the benefit of movement on their both mental and physical
Dr. Metzl: health, but particularly their ability to focus. And so if
Dr. Metzl: you want to see somebody cranky, see a runner with
Dr. Metzl: a hip stress fracture, haven't been able to run for three or four
Dr. Metzl: weeks. That's the definition. And so, that's why I always try
Dr. Metzl: and keep people moving in my practice. And I increasingly
Dr. Metzl: recognize how important movement is to help me focus. And
Dr. Metzl: when I was in medical school, I made the realization
Dr. Metzl: that my brain just worked better when I moved. So
Dr. Metzl: I would go in the back and I would study
Dr. Metzl: and then jump rope, and study and jump rope. And
Dr. Metzl: I noticed that when I got my blood pumping and
Dr. Metzl: I got my heart going, I could just absorb information
Dr. Metzl: a lot better. And I've really taken those lessons throughout the
Dr. Metzl: course of my medical career, that I consider movement and
Dr. Metzl: being a sports medicine doctor part and parcel of the
Dr. Metzl: same thing. And so, I want to figure out, not just
Dr. Metzl: broken body part, but that body part as part of
Dr. Metzl: a bigger person, and how do we get that person
Dr. Metzl: going? Because yeah, it's like, I got an achy knee, but
Dr. Metzl: if my knee aches and I can't do the events
Dr. Metzl: I want to do, and I'm less active... So that's what
Dr. Metzl: Rob will tell you. I'm all over him. It's like,
Dr. Metzl: fine, you can't run right now, but let's keep you
Dr. Metzl: going on your strengthening. Let's keep you going, because you'll
Dr. Metzl: be a better CEO if you are able to move
Dr. Metzl: every day, and you'll be much less happy if you're
Dr. Metzl: not. And so, I think all these things work together.
Dr. Metzl: I just can't emphasize enough how important daily movement is
Dr. Metzl: to those types of things.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah, 100%, and I am living all of this right
Rob Simmelkjaer: now, as Dr. Metzl knows. And for those who follow
Rob Simmelkjaer: the show, you know I ran three marathons in about
Rob Simmelkjaer: 15 months after Chicago, where I didn't have my best
Rob Simmelkjaer: day. Really started to feel some weeks after, just, the
Rob Simmelkjaer: pain in my knee changed. Something was different, from a
Rob Simmelkjaer: little bit sore when I started to run, but then
Rob Simmelkjaer: it would go away, to sore all the time, right?
Rob Simmelkjaer: Sore when I was sitting, sore when I was getting
Rob Simmelkjaer: out of bed, a lot of pain through the holidays.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And so, fortunately I already knew Dr. Metzl and was
Rob Simmelkjaer: able to get an appointment to go in. And this is,
Rob Simmelkjaer: I know, Jordan, pretty common, the sort of thing that
Rob Simmelkjaer: brings people in. And by the way, my HIPAA rights
Rob Simmelkjaer: are waived. You can talk about it all you want
Rob Simmelkjaer: on the podcast, but like, talk about the kinds of
Rob Simmelkjaer: things that you typically see people coming in for on the
Rob Simmelkjaer: medical side of your practice. And you, for those who
Rob Simmelkjaer: don't know, really focus on non- surgical solutions to things, right?
Rob Simmelkjaer: You're trying to give people tools and treatments to keep
Rob Simmelkjaer: them out of surgery for the knee or the hip
Rob Simmelkjaer: or whatever it might be. How do you approach someone
Rob Simmelkjaer: like me, who walks in, having run themselves into a
Rob Simmelkjaer: knee injury?
Dr. Metzl: Quote unquote, " walks in" in air quotes there. Kind of limps
Dr. Metzl: in. And I guess I would first say that people,
Dr. Metzl: if someone like an injury, like I twisted my ankle
Dr. Metzl: and I heard a snap and I came limping off
Dr. Metzl: the field, nobody ever wonders, did I hurt my ankle?
Dr. Metzl: They know they can't walk and something's screwed up. That's
Dr. Metzl: an acute traumatic injury. Runners get some of those, but
Dr. Metzl: more commonly in running, we see repetitive use injuries, pain
Dr. Metzl: that worsens over time. And so the first thing I
Dr. Metzl: would say is, if it's a shin or a knee
Dr. Metzl: or a hip or whatever, all the types of things
Dr. Metzl: we see, if running doesn't hurt a little bit, you're
Dr. Metzl: not going hard enough. So it's got to be a
Dr. Metzl: little bit sore, right? It has to be. It's designed
Dr. Metzl: to be uncomfortable. That being said, unhealthy pain changes your
Dr. Metzl: mechanic of movement. And that's true for kids, parents, grandparents.
Dr. Metzl: If pain is changing how you're moving... And so, in
Dr. Metzl: Rob's story, the first thing that he told us just
Dr. Metzl: by saying this is, something felt different and I was
Dr. Metzl: moving differently. And so, for people listening, the first telltale
Dr. Metzl: sign is, I am moving differently because something hurts or
Dr. Metzl: feels uncomfortable. Back off and get that checked out, because
Dr. Metzl: you can make a little bit of a problem a
Dr. Metzl: much worse problem by continuing to push through the pain.
Dr. Metzl: And so, in my office, the first thing is, what's
Dr. Metzl: the diagnosis? What do we do? We listen to your
Dr. Metzl: history, we examine you, we get x- rays, we maybe
Dr. Metzl: get an MRI. We figure out a treatment plan to
Dr. Metzl: fix the problem you have. And then we want to
Dr. Metzl: think about, how do we prevent this problem from recurring?
Dr. Metzl: Why did it happen? Did I violate the rule of
Dr. Metzl: toos, too much, too fast? Is there something screwed up
Dr. Metzl: with my run mechanic? Do I need a run analysis?
Dr. Metzl: Which we thankfully have here at HSS and other places,
Dr. Metzl: too. How do I look at my run mechanic? Do
Dr. Metzl: I look at how my body alignment is when I'm
Dr. Metzl: running? What's my training program? Am I doing enough strengthening?
Dr. Metzl: Nutritionally, am I kind of locked in? Am I running
Dr. Metzl: too many big endurance events in a short period of
Dr. Metzl: time? Those are all things we would start to think
Dr. Metzl: about when we start figuring out why this injury happened
Dr. Metzl: in the first place. The benefit of all that is
Dr. Metzl: that as you get better, someone like you gets better,
Dr. Metzl: they are less likely... First of all, they're more likely
Dr. Metzl: to recognize unhealthy pain on the backside, and they're much
Dr. Metzl: less likely to reproduce that same mistake again. They will
Dr. Metzl: not do the same thing twice. They'll say, hey, listen,
Dr. Metzl: I feel this. I'm going to back off.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Oh, yeah, that's definitely true, because I can certainly say
Rob Simmelkjaer: I do not want a repeat of what I've been
Rob Simmelkjaer: dealing with the last couple of months.
Becs Gentry: Absolutely.
Rob Simmelkjaer: It's not fun. And then, Jordan, the motivation side of
Rob Simmelkjaer: it really, it's real. And I know it's real because
Rob Simmelkjaer: I've been through these ups and downs in my life
Rob Simmelkjaer: before, where you have, for whatever reason, you're not as
Rob Simmelkjaer: physically active. It could be because you're really busy with
Rob Simmelkjaer: work or with school. It could be because of travel
Rob Simmelkjaer: or something that's kind of standing in your way. And
Rob Simmelkjaer: the role that that can play, which can be so
Rob Simmelkjaer: hard to see and feel sometimes in impacting your mental
Rob Simmelkjaer: outlook. And of course, there's lots of things impacting our
Rob Simmelkjaer: mental outlook every day. We had a fight with a
Rob Simmelkjaer: friend or a spouse. We had a bad day at
Rob Simmelkjaer: the office. Something in the news was bothering us. There's
Rob Simmelkjaer: a million kind of inputs that we're all experiencing every
Rob Simmelkjaer: day, which can kind of bring us a little bit
Rob Simmelkjaer: down or bring us a little bit up. And the
Rob Simmelkjaer: role of exercise in creating that resilience to help us
Rob Simmelkjaer: manage those emotional ups and downs is so huge. And
Rob Simmelkjaer: when something like running is taken away for a while,
Rob Simmelkjaer: it's really important. I can tell you right now, I
Rob Simmelkjaer: have had more moody days. Hopefully, my staff hasn't seen
Rob Simmelkjaer: me too much, but I've had more moody days... My
Rob Simmelkjaer: kids definitely could tell you this, in the last month,
Rob Simmelkjaer: than I really have had in the last couple of
Rob Simmelkjaer: years. So, finding ways to express that exercise and in some
Rob Simmelkjaer: other way. I'm doing more hit workouts, I'm certainly walking
Rob Simmelkjaer: a lot more, which is great. It's so important, Jordan,
Rob Simmelkjaer: right? And we've talked about that.
Dr. Metzl: Yeah. I can't emphasize enough. I'm spot on with everything you're
Dr. Metzl: saying. And I love that concept of resilience, and emotional resilience
Dr. Metzl: and physical resilience. How to basically absorb the stresses of
Dr. Metzl: everyday life, and that running and quote unquote " decompressing" through exercise
Dr. Metzl: really helps us with those types of things. And then,
Dr. Metzl: I guess I would also make a shout out to
Dr. Metzl: the importance of muscle. In the second half of Push,
Dr. Metzl: I have a whole series of strength exercises like these
Dr. Metzl: kinds you've been doing, which can be done with body
Dr. Metzl: weight anytime, anywhere. And that's because muscle is a huge
Dr. Metzl: storage reservoir in our body. And as we get older,
Dr. Metzl: if we're not actively strengthening our muscles, we end up
Dr. Metzl: weaker, more achy, but also less resilient physically. And so,
Dr. Metzl: I'm a big proponent of muscle strength as part of what we
Dr. Metzl: do. Runners used to only run. Increasingly, I think we've
Dr. Metzl: gotten the message out that strengthening is very important for
Dr. Metzl: runners for physical resilience. But I think your comments are
Dr. Metzl: spot on both psychologically and physically about the importance of resilience.
Becs Gentry: Absolutely. Okay, so if a runner said they only have
Becs Gentry: energy for one thing besides running, what would it be?
Dr. Metzl: Listen, I think that I'm a big fan of strengthening
Dr. Metzl: and plyometric- based strengthening. I love people to do that.
Dr. Metzl: I have a whole series of things people can do
Dr. Metzl: in the back on their own. But if they hate
Dr. Metzl: strengthening, they can do other strength - building things that they
Dr. Metzl: like. I want them to do something they enjoy, because
Dr. Metzl: they will not be consistent if they don't like it. And
Dr. Metzl: strategies, like Rob said, like my kids feel like, whatever.
Dr. Metzl: So they feel like I'm less happy. So I have
Dr. Metzl: plenty of people, like I get my kids involved in
Dr. Metzl: a strength training program with me at home. Thinking about
Dr. Metzl: ways to lower the cost to act, as I mentioned
Dr. Metzl: before, to make strengthening a piece of what we do, family
Dr. Metzl: strength sessions. I get great videos of people doing my
Dr. Metzl: strength workouts. I had some guy that was in the
Dr. Metzl: Peace Corps in Kenya, and he sent me a picture
Dr. Metzl: of him and all his little kids he was teaching at
Dr. Metzl: a school doing, he called Metzling in Kenya. I was
Dr. Metzl: like, that made me so happy. So, I get great videos
Dr. Metzl: of people doing this stuff all the time. And again, it's free and it's super- effective.
Rob Simmelkjaer: All right. Well, the book is called Push. Dr. Jordan
Rob Simmelkjaer: Metzl from HSS, thank you so much for joining us.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Congratulations on the book.
Becs Gentry: Thank you. Yeah. Can't wait to read it.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Absolutely. I highly recommend it. Thank you so much for
Rob Simmelkjaer: spending some time with us, Jordan. It was great. And
Rob Simmelkjaer: I'll see you in the office tomorrow.
Dr. Metzl: Lovely, guys. It's truly a pleasure, and I hope you can
Dr. Metzl: listen. And also, we have an audio version, if people
Dr. Metzl: want to listen when they're walking or running. I hope
Dr. Metzl: they like that as well.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Absolutely. Dr. Jordan Metzl. New York Road Runners is a
Rob Simmelkjaer: nonprofit organization with a vision to build healthier lives and
Rob Simmelkjaer: stronger communities through the transformative power of running. The support
Rob Simmelkjaer: of members and donors like you helps us achieve our
Rob Simmelkjaer: mission to transform the health and wellbeing of our communities
Rob Simmelkjaer: through inclusive and accessible running experiences, empowering all to achieve
Rob Simmelkjaer: their potential. Learn more and contribute at nyrr. org/ donate.
Rob Simmelkjaer: All right, folks, that does it for another episode of
Rob Simmelkjaer: Set the Pace. We want to thank Dr. Jordan Metzl
Rob Simmelkjaer: from Hospital for Special Surgery for joining us for a
Rob Simmelkjaer: great conversation about his book, Push. If you like this episode,
Rob Simmelkjaer: make sure you go ahead, subscribe, rate, leave a comment
Rob Simmelkjaer: on the show wherever you listen. We love hearing from
Rob Simmelkjaer: you. We've gotten actually some great questions from folks who
Rob Simmelkjaer: listened to our town hall episode a couple of weeks
Rob Simmelkjaer: ago. Some of them have come in through the runner
Rob Simmelkjaer: services email address at New York Runners. You can put
Rob Simmelkjaer: your questions in the comments on your Apple podcast app
Rob Simmelkjaer: or wherever you happen to be, and we'll see them
Rob Simmelkjaer: and answer them as well. So, thanks for joining us.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Hopefully we're going to get a little warm up here.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Hope to see you out running soon, and enjoy the
Rob Simmelkjaer: miles. We'll see you next week.