Jean Knaack: A woman's experience out running is always going to be
Jean Knaack: different than a man's experience, and a lot of that
Jean Knaack: stems from a woman always has to be hyperfocused on
Jean Knaack: her surroundings in a way that a guy can probably
Jean Knaack: run through a certain area at a certain time of
Jean Knaack: day and not even think about it.
Christine Burke: Welcome to Set the Pace, the official podcast of New
Christine Burke: York Road Runners presented by Peloton. I'm Christine Burke, chief
Christine Burke: commercial officer at New York Road Runners.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Hi, I'm Erica Edwards- O'Neal, chief diversity officer in New
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: York Road Runners.
Christine Burke: Today, we have the honor of sitting in for Rob
Christine Burke: and Becs. Becs is off today, and Rob is traveling home
Christine Burke: from 11 days in Kenya. He has been stymied by
Christine Burke: the blizzard that hit New York City yesterday, so he
Christine Burke: is stuck in Amsterdam but will be home hopefully soon.
Christine Burke: Erica and I had the privilege of representing New York Road
Christine Burke: Runners for the last week and a half in Kenya,
Christine Burke: and there's so much that we learned and that we want
Christine Burke: to share about our experience there. But as it relates
Christine Burke: to our conversation today around runner safety, we wanted to
Christine Burke: share a little bit about our experience with an organization
Christine Burke: that we met with during our visit in Kenya called
Christine Burke: Tirop's Angels. Tirop's Angels was founded by Viola Cheptoo Lagat,
Christine Burke: who was a training partner with Agnes Tirop, who was
Christine Burke: killed by her domestic partner in 2021 after returning home
Christine Burke: from a record- breaking 10,000- meter race that she ran
Christine Burke: in. And Tirop's Angels mission is to change the dialogue
Christine Burke: around gender- based violence in Kenya. And we wanted to
Christine Burke: share a little bit about what our experience was meeting
Christine Burke: with Viola and the Tirop's Angels organization during our trip
Christine Burke: there. Erica, can you share a little bit about your
Christine Burke: impressions that we take away from our meetings with Tirop's Angels?
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Oh, absolutely. I am so inspired, still struggling to find
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: the words for the experience. What we watched were a
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: people who are, yes, resilient with the answers, creating and
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: solving problems. We saw the Tirop's Angels teams collaborating with
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: the local men, the boda boda cyclists who are men, and
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: watching them educate and advocate and show up. We saw
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: the love and support from the community everywhere we were.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Men, women, and children were sharing their pride in what
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Tirop's Angels were doing. The commitment to support that work.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: We see so much collaboration, community and support for helping
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: to end gender- based violence. And so we just had
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: the opportunity to sit, listen, and learn. It was not
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: about jumping in, assuming we had any answers. Each day,
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: we were just uncovering a different layer, looking at different
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: solutions, folks... Just incredible, just an incredible experience, and I
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: am really looking forward to learning more and understanding how
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: we can support there and at home.
Christine Burke: I echo everything you just shared. The experience, we're really
Christine Burke: still digesting. And runner safety and women's safety is so important
Christine Burke: to us at New York Road Runners, and we're really
Christine Burke: honored to have two conversations today about this really important topic.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Well, before I jump in there, I'll say we understand
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: that runner safety and women's safety and gender- based violence
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: are not exactly the same issue. We know there might
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: be a through line, but we know that when we're
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: talking runner safety, it's not one particular lens or layer.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: We know that is a different conversation for women, for
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: people or gender- expansive folks, for people of color. We
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: understand that each group and identity has this unique set
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: of challenges. And so we don't want to lump folks
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: all in together, but we are excited to be starting the
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: conversation and can assure you that it's not a one
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: and done. We're looking forward to many conversations throughout the
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: year. But coming up, we are looking at runner safety
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: again from two perspectives. First, we're going to have Jean
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Knaack and she's going to join us to talk about
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: how run clubs and race leaders think about safety, where
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: the gaps still exist. And then we're going to hear
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: from Ashley Raymond and Meagan Doyle, whose own experience has
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: pushed them to create a solution for women who are
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: heading out alone on a run. So stay tuned.
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Christine Burke: Our first guest is Jean Knaack, CEO of the Road
Christine Burke: Runners Club of America. Founded in 1958, RRCA is the
Christine Burke: oldest and largest distance running organization in the United States with over 1,
Christine Burke: 500 running club and event members representing 200,000 individual runners
Christine Burke: active in the running communities. In fact, New York Road Runners
Christine Burke: started in 1958 as the Road Runners Club New York
Christine Burke: Association. So our organizations are very connected, founded in the
Christine Burke: first year and with New York Road Runners being a division or
Christine Burke: association of the RRCA. Since 2005, Jean has led thousands
Christine Burke: of clubs and race directors across the country shaping the
Christine Burke: culture of grassroots running. Under her leadership, RRCA has strengthened
Christine Burke: safe sport standards and education around creating harassment- free training
Christine Burke: environments. As conversations around women's safety grow louder, Jean helps
Christine Burke: us step back and take a look at the bigger
Christine Burke: picture. What responsibility does the sport itself have to make
Christine Burke: sure runners feel safe when they step out the door?
Christine Burke: Jean, thank you so much for joining me and Erica
Christine Burke: today. We're so excited to have a conversation with you.
Jean Knaack: Thank you for having me.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Great. I'll jump right in with a first question. Again,
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: I'm so excited to be in conversation with you, learning
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: more about you and your amazing history in this space
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: and being an extraordinary advocate. So again, welcome. I'm so
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: excited to meet you. I'll jump right in with our
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: first question, and it's Jean, can you tell us when
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: did you realize that runner safety needed to have a
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: systemic approach and not an individualized conversation?
Jean Knaack: Tough question, right? I mean for a long time, I've
Jean Knaack: been with the organization for 20 years, and it is
Jean Knaack: something that has predated my work with RRCA. So advocates
Jean Knaack: that were working in this space well before me were
Jean Knaack: having, I think, meaningful conversations about safety in this sport,
Jean Knaack: especially towards women and beyond pedestrian safety because that's inclusive
Jean Knaack: of all runners, but really more physical safety against violence
Jean Knaack: towards women. And the RRCA really was leading the way
Jean Knaack: back in the eighties. There were situations that made national
Jean Knaack: headlines of a woman I know in Iowa who was
Jean Knaack: violently raped during a run. And so that really spurred
Jean Knaack: the RRCA to create a lot of education around being
Jean Knaack: safe while out running, especially alone. And we've just really
Jean Knaack: continued to continue that dialogue as more younger generations come
Jean Knaack: into the sport because you can't just be like, " Okay,
Jean Knaack: work done. Back in the nineties." Right? We keep seeing more
Jean Knaack: and more and more younger people coming into the sport
Jean Knaack: and so we have to keep that dialogue going about safety.
Christine Burke: And Jean, where do you think that the running community
Christine Burke: and RRCA are doing a good job around conversations about
Christine Burke: runner safety, and where are we still falling short?
Jean Knaack: The problem we have is we have the conversation when
Jean Knaack: something tragic happens. Right? People start talking about it again.
Jean Knaack: And then there's so much to talk about in our
Jean Knaack: sport that then it just kind of drops off. Right?
Jean Knaack: So it's almost that space in between when there aren't
Jean Knaack: terrible things happening where people do need to be reminded,
Jean Knaack: both men and women, about what are some opportunities to increase
Jean Knaack: and improve safety for people that are out running, especially
Jean Knaack: if they're alone, but even in a group dynamic.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Yeah, thank you. Are there examples of what a truly
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: safe club culture looks like in practice that you can
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: share with us?
Jean Knaack: Oof. That's a tough one because you're dealing with humans,
Jean Knaack: right? And I think a lot of clubs who do
Jean Knaack: it really well, they're focusing on being inclusive, being safe,
Jean Knaack: having I think upfront and strong member code of conducts
Jean Knaack: and leaning in on them and trying to proactively address
Jean Knaack: if there are concerns and situations, monitoring comments on social
Jean Knaack: media related to their own organization. Some groups will have
Jean Knaack: WhatsApp or different chat group apps that they're using that
Jean Knaack: are very solely for the membership of that entity. And
Jean Knaack: so clubs that are really kind of moderating those, I
Jean Knaack: think they're doing really well. And clubs that are really
Jean Knaack: making an effort to, again, be inclusive but in a
Jean Knaack: safe way.
Christine Burke: What responsibility do you believe that male runners and leaders
Christine Burke: in running clubs have in shaping safer running environments and
Christine Burke: running culture?
Jean Knaack: I think my experience, my opinion is it is a
Jean Knaack: shared responsibility for male and female club leaders, but certainly,
Jean Knaack: men can step up and really understand that a woman's
Jean Knaack: experience out running is always going to be different than
Jean Knaack: a man's experience. And a lot of that stems from
Jean Knaack: a woman always has to be hyperfocused on her surroundings in
Jean Knaack: a way that a guy can probably run through a
Jean Knaack: certain area at a certain time of day and not
Jean Knaack: even think about it and be totally fine, and that
Jean Knaack: is not the female experience out running. And so really raising
Jean Knaack: the understanding of that situation, I think, is really important.
Jean Knaack: And also, helping men understand how can they be safe
Jean Knaack: advocates, which is you're out on a run, maybe it's
Jean Knaack: dusk and you see a female runner, don't follow or
Jean Knaack: don't be creepy, don't be stalky, but also be aware
Jean Knaack: of the surroundings, and if you see something or someone
Jean Knaack: that doesn't seem like they should be there or they're
Jean Knaack: kind of there in a potentially nefarious position, it's okay
Jean Knaack: to say something.
Christine Burke: Erica and I and New York Road Runners in general
Christine Burke: really believe in the value of sharing experiences and sharing
Christine Burke: them out loud, and that being how real change can come
Christine Burke: about when folks realize that they're not alone in their
Christine Burke: experiences and that together, we are stronger than going solo.
Christine Burke: What stories have you heard from women in running clubs that
Christine Burke: have stayed with you?
Jean Knaack: There are a lot of situations I help club leaders
Jean Knaack: manage through when you do have behaviors that cross a
Jean Knaack: line, and that can be related to things were kind
Jean Knaack: of fun and light until someone started maybe being a
Jean Knaack: little more assertive, maybe leaning into a little stalker kind
Jean Knaack: of behavior. Sending inappropriate DMs through social media is always
Jean Knaack: one of those member code of conducts that some club
Jean Knaack: leaders have had to manage and navigating behavior that's not
Jean Knaack: acceptable in a group dynamic. And so I've definitely helped
Jean Knaack: counsel club leaders how to manage that, and oftentimes, it's
Jean Knaack: look, you get one warning and if you don't get
Jean Knaack: your act together, you're out, that you really have to
Jean Knaack: have a pretty zero- tolerance attitude when it comes to
Jean Knaack: making sure everyone feels safe. I know there's a group
Jean Knaack: that I worked with, and it kind of started with
Jean Knaack: one person. The more people talked, it was like, " Oh,
Jean Knaack: this is a much bigger issue." And what they were
Jean Knaack: realizing is they were losing female membership because of an
Jean Knaack: individual. And when they were very proactively removed that individual,
Jean Knaack: a lot of those women came back into the club,
Jean Knaack: back into their group run. And that was a male
Jean Knaack: leader. Right? He was just a little kind of taken
Jean Knaack: aback of having to navigate that situation. And in my
Jean Knaack: opinion, they did the right thing. So I think that's
Jean Knaack: what's really important is when a woman expresses that something
Jean Knaack: is not going right, especially if someone is making people
Jean Knaack: feel uncomfortable, leadership has to just be really proactive in
Jean Knaack: those situations. As a female runner, I've had my own
Jean Knaack: like, oh God, I'm not in a safe situation. And
Jean Knaack: I've told this story that happened quite a long time
Jean Knaack: ago, but there's a section of our multi- use trail
Jean Knaack: where I was running, and it's kind of an area where
Jean Knaack: there's a lot of brush and the opposite side is
Jean Knaack: a retaining wall on the freeway. And there was someone
Jean Knaack: on a bike and he looked behind and he kept
Jean Knaack: slowing down and slowing down and watching me, and I
Jean Knaack: kind of stopped and was like, " Oh, God." Right? Like
Jean Knaack: your spidey senses come up and you're like, this is not
Jean Knaack: good. But I couldn't go forward and I didn't want
Jean Knaack: to turn around because I didn't want him at my
Jean Knaack: back. So I kind of stood there, did the hands
Jean Knaack: on my head. I was like, " I see you." And then he got
Jean Knaack: off his bike, he was fiddling with it and I
Jean Knaack: was like, okay, what do I do? I looked back
Jean Knaack: and there was a guy running down the hill just
Jean Knaack: on the trail, but I flagged him down and I
Jean Knaack: explained to him what was happening and I was like, "
Jean Knaack: I feel really unsafe and our options are: can I
Jean Knaack: run with you until we get to kind of a
Jean Knaack: junction in that area where it's a lot more populated,
Jean Knaack: a lot more people, or can you run me back
Jean Knaack: to kind of the entry to this trail area?" And
Jean Knaack: the dude was totally cool about it. So we opted
Jean Knaack: to the we'll move forward, and the guy on the
Jean Knaack: bike got back on his bike. He turned around and
Jean Knaack: went the opposite direction. So that's just kind of my
Jean Knaack: own case study of one, but again, you're like, we
Jean Knaack: are a community and so feeling empowered to flag somebody
Jean Knaack: down and be like, " I don't feel safe," I think...
Jean Knaack: And the guy in that situation, he totally got it.
Jean Knaack: I've flagged down female runners where... And especially when I've been
Jean Knaack: on a bike and I'm like, " This guy's casing you.
Jean Knaack: You need to take your headphones out for a bit."
Jean Knaack: Right? We can be advocates, if you see something, when
Jean Knaack: you're out there, you're like, " This just doesn't smell right,"
Jean Knaack: I think it's important to step up for each other.
Christine Burke: For sure. I think it was Mr. Rogers who said, " Always
Christine Burke: look for the helpers." And-
Jean Knaack: Yeah. Exactly.
Christine Burke: ... often, there are folks around that you can flag
Christine Burke: down to just be by your side until you can
Christine Burke: get to a spot where you're safe. But thank you
Christine Burke: for sharing your personal story. I think that we probably
Christine Burke: all have one or more like that unfortunately, but it's
Christine Burke: a good example of how you can look for a
Christine Burke: helper and trust your gut, trust your instinct that something's not right.
Jean Knaack: Exactly. That is exactly right. Right? Trust your gut and it
Jean Knaack: is okay to be like, maybe, today was my 20-
Jean Knaack: mile run, but you're like, trust your gut, this is
Jean Knaack: not safe. Get out of there, alter course. Just have
Jean Knaack: another better run a different day. That's always been kind
Jean Knaack: of my... Again, but that leans back into we all
Jean Knaack: do have a personal responsibility for our safety, but there
Jean Knaack: are things that we can do as a society and
Jean Knaack: a community to really help women be and feel more
Jean Knaack: safe when they're out there running.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Absolutely. Jean, we need so much more time with you.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: I'm looking forward to a longer conversation. Having opportunity, we
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: love, we talk about these things from an inside- out
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: approach, making sure we're educating our staff, and so I
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: know there's going to be opportunity to have much longer
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: conversation, and we are absolutely looking forward to it. I
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: hope you're open. Thank you so much.
Jean Knaack: Absolutely. Of course.
Christine Burke: Yeah. Thank you for joining us today, Jean, and good
Christine Burke: luck with all the important work that RRCA is doing.
Christine Burke: We're here to support and look forward to continuing to
Christine Burke: work together in the years to come.
Jean Knaack: Great. Thank you for having me in this important conversation.
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Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Ashley Raymond and Meagan Doyle met in a college when
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: working on a class project. As they started tossing around
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: ideas, the conversation kept circling back to something that felt
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: all too close to home - personal safety. Ashley started running
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: as a way to manage her type 1 diabetes, but
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: after being followed on a run and after violence hit
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: close to home on their college campus, that freedom started
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: to wane. Running didn't stop, but it came with much
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: more calculation and caution - where to run, when to run,
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: who to run with. So they and their co- founders
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: took a deeper look, what would it feel like to
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: head out of the door and feel prepared rather than cautious?
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Their answer to that question eventually led to Safely. Welcome,
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Ashley and Meagan. Thank y'all for being with us.
Ashley Raymond: Thank you so much for having us.
Meagan Doyle: Yes, thank you.
Christine Burke: Yeah, thank you. We're so excited to have you here and hear
Christine Burke: a little bit more about your stories and about the
Christine Burke: story of Safely. So I'll jump in. Ashley, can you
Christine Burke: take us back to that run in high school? What
Christine Burke: do you remember most clearly about being followed on that run?
Ashley Raymond: For sure. I was thinking back to it, and something
Ashley Raymond: I clearly remember is that day I was running with
Ashley Raymond: my dog. He kind of looked like a chocolate lab,
Ashley Raymond: but he was a mutt. I've run this route many
Ashley Raymond: of times in my neighborhood at this point. And at
Ashley Raymond: first, I noticed these two men across the street from
Ashley Raymond: me, and the next thing I knew, they were right
Ashley Raymond: behind me running after me, and in that moment, I felt
Ashley Raymond: a fear wash over me. I had heard things on
Ashley Raymond: the news before. I had read articles. I knew it
Ashley Raymond: was important to be aware of my surroundings. And I
Ashley Raymond: just had this thought, " Oh my gosh, this is actually
Ashley Raymond: happening. I can't believe this is happening to me right
Ashley Raymond: now. How am I going to get away safely? Will
Ashley Raymond: I be able to get away safely? What am I
Ashley Raymond: going to do if they catch me?" All sorts of
Ashley Raymond: thoughts flooded my mind to the worst case scenario as
Ashley Raymond: well. So I kept running and called for help, and
Ashley Raymond: luckily, I was able to get away, and luckily, the
Ashley Raymond: men were arrested, not because I stuck around to file
Ashley Raymond: a report, but because they were actually publicly intoxicated. And
Ashley Raymond: when the cops called to tell me that after the
Ashley Raymond: fact, I felt a big rush of relief that they
Ashley Raymond: weren't out there on the street anymore and that no
Ashley Raymond: one else was going to be in danger, at least
Ashley Raymond: for that day. But at the same time, I felt
Ashley Raymond: this overall worry and fear that had now become real
Ashley Raymond: for me. This could happen on any run that I
Ashley Raymond: might go on in the future. This could happen to
Ashley Raymond: anybody else, and I don't want that to be the case.
Christine Burke: So after that happened, did you change how you ran,
Christine Burke: where you ran, when you ran? How did that experience
Christine Burke: change your behavior?
Ashley Raymond: Yeah. I think I had it in the back of
Ashley Raymond: my head, but at this point in time as a
Ashley Raymond: high schooler, I wasn't thinking of starting safely or anything
Ashley Raymond: like that, but it definitely changed... When I went running,
Ashley Raymond: I was a lot more aware of my surroundings. I
Ashley Raymond: noticed anything that seemed a little bit off and created
Ashley Raymond: distance between myself and whatever that might've been. And I
Ashley Raymond: preferred, too, to run with other people at some points
Ashley Raymond: in time, closely after the incident happened, but then, I
Ashley Raymond: do overall prefer solo running, so went back to running
Ashley Raymond: by myself.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. It's
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: interesting because you were running during the day with dogs.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: It does seem like some of the best guidance you
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: were taking and it still was not proof, a hundred percent
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: proof protection, but thank you so much. I'm so glad
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: that you are safe, we're safe, and thank you for
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: sharing that story with us. I'm going to jump to
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Meagan. Meagan, you shared before growing up with women in
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: your life who were survivors. How did that shape how
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: you moved through the world?
Meagan Doyle: My family, in general, has a bunch of women in
Meagan Doyle: it, and they're all very strong and powerful women, and
Meagan Doyle: so I grew up with mostly that influence from a
Meagan Doyle: young age, and then were also women that are survivors
Meagan Doyle: in my family, too. And so that was something that
Meagan Doyle: we had open conversations about. Maybe not all the details
Meagan Doyle: when I was little, but something that I grew up
Meagan Doyle: with kind of as a normal conversation. And unfortunately, one
Meagan Doyle: of these incidences happened when I was in middle school
Meagan Doyle: and then kind of unraveled in high school. And so
Meagan Doyle: that was something that I dealt with then at the
Meagan Doyle: time, but then also coming into college, moving to Austin,
Meagan Doyle: and that was such a much bigger city than the
Meagan Doyle: hometown that I have. And in my hometown, we didn't talk
Meagan Doyle: about things like this outside of my family, and in
Meagan Doyle: Austin, people are always on campus, especially, debating different things
Meagan Doyle: and talking about things very openly. This was 2016, and
Meagan Doyle: there was the first female candidate for president, too, so there
Meagan Doyle: was just a lot of talk about women. And then
Meagan Doyle: we've previously talked about the two students who were murdered
Meagan Doyle: on our campus prior to our class project. One of
Meagan Doyle: those students was a woman who was just walking home
Meagan Doyle: at night, which is a very real and scary situation
Meagan Doyle: a lot of women can relate to. And then during
Meagan Doyle: our class project semester, I'm pretty sure that this is
Meagan Doyle: the same semester that the MeToo movement really picked up traction.
Meagan Doyle: So all of these things that started with how I
Meagan Doyle: grew up and this domino effect of this event that
Meagan Doyle: happened really led to my mindset, I guess, trying to
Meagan Doyle: think of things that I could do to help. And
Meagan Doyle: at the time, whenever I was going through that, it
Meagan Doyle: was something that that was my biggest regret or thing
Meagan Doyle: I felt guilty about is that I felt like there was nothing I
Meagan Doyle: could have done. And that led to whenever we had
Meagan Doyle: this conversation with my eventual co- founders in this class
Meagan Doyle: project, it was something that I guess I felt I
Meagan Doyle: could just speak about openly because I had been thinking
Meagan Doyle: about it and talking about it for the several years
Meagan Doyle: leading up to that. And I just hope that... This
Meagan Doyle: is something that I haven't really talked about a lot,
Meagan Doyle: and I think that it's important that I mentioned that
Meagan Doyle: it's not something that I've ever thought about in the
Meagan Doyle: way of, oh, how can I use this to help
Meagan Doyle: me? But I think something that we talk about at
Meagan Doyle: Safely, it's very important to have open and honest conversations
Meagan Doyle: and the more women we have talking about these things.
Meagan Doyle: That doesn't mean that anybody who has been in this situation has
Meagan Doyle: to come forward or anything like that, but I hope
Meagan Doyle: anybody who hears this that can relate just knows that
Meagan Doyle: they're seen and that this is why Safely ever existed
Meagan Doyle: in the first place. And we hope that one day
Meagan Doyle: things like this aren't happening, so it doesn't have to exist.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Absolutely. I love that. Can you tell me, speaking of speaking openly
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: and from that class project, when did you realize you had
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: something much bigger than a class project?
Meagan Doyle: I think that it was after the project ended and
Meagan Doyle: none of us wanted to quit working on it. I
Meagan Doyle: think it was actually Ashley, at first, who mentioned we
Meagan Doyle: should meet up and keep talking about this. So I
Meagan Doyle: can let her speak to that, too, but it was
Meagan Doyle: something that all of us... It was our first group
Meagan Doyle: project, if not the only group project I'd ever felt
Meagan Doyle: it wasn't just for a grade and was something we
Meagan Doyle: were really passionate about.
Ashley Raymond: A hundred percent. It was something that we talked a lot about together. We
Ashley Raymond: spent extra hours preparing to present this class project because
Ashley Raymond: it was more than a class project to us at
Ashley Raymond: this point. And after the project, too, when we presented
Ashley Raymond: our idea and got a ton of feedback, we thought
Ashley Raymond: to ourselves, " Okay, how hard can this be to do?
Ashley Raymond: Let's do this. This could help a lot of people."
Ashley Raymond: And we quickly learned that it was very hard to
Ashley Raymond: launch a company, and the first company we launched together
Ashley Raymond: in college ended up not working out. And so we
Ashley Raymond: went back to the drawing board, and in 2021, we
Ashley Raymond: launched Safely, which is the company we have together today
Ashley Raymond: with still some of our other classmates, too, from that
Ashley Raymond: class project. So it's just been really cool to see
Ashley Raymond: that if you have a mission that you believe so
Ashley Raymond: strongly in and you can see that there is a
Ashley Raymond: way to make a change and there is a way
Ashley Raymond: to make a difference, even if you fail the first
Ashley Raymond: time, it doesn't mean that it can't work out the
Ashley Raymond: second time, and it doesn't mean that you should quit,
Ashley Raymond: but maybe you should think about it differently and figure
Ashley Raymond: out how you can help the most people.
Christine Burke: So many class projects start and end in a class.
Christine Burke: You work on a group project, it starts, you deliver
Christine Burke: the final presentation, and you walk away. And so it
Christine Burke: seems that you truly believed in what you were working on
Christine Burke: that this extended beyond the class. And as you mentioned
Christine Burke: that despite failing the first time, you believe so strongly
Christine Burke: in it that you kept at it. Meagan, you have
Christine Burke: shared that you did not run outside before Safely, and
Christine Burke: would love to learn a little bit more about some
Christine Burke: of the Safely products, including Sidekick and what that product
Christine Burke: is and what sort of confidence it gives you when
Christine Burke: you carry that when you run, giving you the comfort
Christine Burke: to run outside.
Meagan Doyle: Yes. I wasn't really the athletic person growing up in
Meagan Doyle: general, which is something all the other people in my
Meagan Doyle: family played sports and I just was like, " That's not
Meagan Doyle: for me." But as I got older and kind of
Meagan Doyle: fell in love with going to the gym and working
Meagan Doyle: out in my own way, I just never really even
Meagan Doyle: crossed my mind that, " Oh, I would go outside and
Meagan Doyle: go for a run by myself." That just seemed like a crazy
Meagan Doyle: idea to me. Ashley is one of the first people
Meagan Doyle: I ever met that did that. None of my friends
Meagan Doyle: are runners or anything. So I watched her from a
Meagan Doyle: young age, I guess. When we were first in college
Meagan Doyle: and met in our class project, that was something she
Meagan Doyle: did regularly. And the more and more, whenever we started
Meagan Doyle: Safely and developed out these products, the Sidekick was something
Meagan Doyle: that we wanted runners, especially, to feel comfortable carrying, so
Meagan Doyle: we wanted it to be lightweight and compact enough that
Meagan Doyle: it wasn't a burden to be carrying this with you
Meagan Doyle: on the run. And then whenever we got the Sidekick
Meagan Doyle: and I got to hold it for the first time
Meagan Doyle: and it was actually real and I would take it
Meagan Doyle: on walks and everything and see Ashley go running with
Meagan Doyle: it, I had the thought of, " Oh, maybe I should go
Meagan Doyle: for a run and see what this is like." And
Meagan Doyle: so it was the first time that I went on a run and I took the Sidekick
Meagan Doyle: with me, and now, I run with it all the
Meagan Doyle: time. And Ashley and I got to run our first
Meagan Doyle: marathon this past year, and then we just did a
Meagan Doyle: half this past weekend as well, or two weekends ago
Meagan Doyle: now. But yeah, so it's been incredible. I have fallen
Meagan Doyle: in love with running. I guess I got the bug,
Meagan Doyle: and it all started with Ashley first and then the Sidekick.
Christine Burke: Yeah. It's so common that in order to really enjoy
Christine Burke: something, you have to feel fully safe in it, and that can
Christine Burke: be psychological safety, physical safety, can take lots of forms, but
Christine Burke: you can fall in love with a sport, like running,
Christine Burke: when you feel safe.
Meagan Doyle: Definitely.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: So I do have to ask, do your other co-
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: founders run?
Ashley Raymond: Not as much. No half marathons or full marathons yet,
Ashley Raymond: but at our last board meeting, I let them know
Ashley Raymond: that next year, we'll do a marathon together jokingly, but I
Ashley Raymond: just think it's been the coolest thing to see Meagan
Ashley Raymond: start running. And I think running changes a person. I
Ashley Raymond: know running's changed myself. And now, instead of me texting
Ashley Raymond: Meagan races, Meagan's sending me runs to sign up for.
Ashley Raymond: This is so cool. This is a full circle moment.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Awesome.
Meagan Doyle: Ashley, do you have a Sidekick with you?
Ashley Raymond: Yeah.
Meagan Doyle: I didn't grab mine. If you want to show what
Meagan Doyle: it has.
Ashley Raymond: For sure. So the Sidekick, too, it is our five- in-
Ashley Raymond: one self- defense tool. And when we were creating it,
Ashley Raymond: like Meagan mentioned, we really focused on how to make
Ashley Raymond: it very convenient to run with. So even though it
Ashley Raymond: might look a little bigger in my hands, it's lighter
Ashley Raymond: than an iPhone. And everything down to where the flashlight
Ashley Raymond: is, is pretty much because I wanted to put it
Ashley Raymond: there because of running, so that when you're holding it
Ashley Raymond: and you're running with your hands, you're seeing where you're
Ashley Raymond: stepping in front of you on the ground, safety from
Ashley Raymond: the perspective of not trying to fall down if you're
Ashley Raymond: running early in the morning or at night, but then
Ashley Raymond: also having it easily available so you can move the
Ashley Raymond: light around instead of wearing a light on your shoe
Ashley Raymond: where you can't really easily look to the side, so
Ashley Raymond: you can stay super aware. The flashlight's also very bright, so
Ashley Raymond: if it were pointed directly in somebody's eyes, it would
Ashley Raymond: temporarily blind them a little bit or disorient them, and
Ashley Raymond: then you'd have time to use the pepper spray if
Ashley Raymond: you had to. And then you might notice the spike
Ashley Raymond: on the bottom. It actually comes off. Some people don't
Ashley Raymond: prefer to run with this because they might be worried
Ashley Raymond: they could fall on top of it. So you can
Ashley Raymond: unscrew it. But the reason we have the spike here is
Ashley Raymond: because if someone were to come up from behind you
Ashley Raymond: on a run, which is the most common situation a
Ashley Raymond: runner might find themselves in, if a situation were to arise,
Ashley Raymond: you could use that little jabby to get away. So
Ashley Raymond: we really thought of runners when creating this device. And
Ashley Raymond: this cord around the wrist, too, is an alarm. So
Ashley Raymond: you can pull that to activate it. If someone tried
Ashley Raymond: to take it out of your hand, the alarm is
Ashley Raymond: going to be going off. All sorts of things in this
Ashley Raymond: one Sidekick device.
Christine Burke: Well, thank you for sharing. For those of you who
Christine Burke: can't see it because you're listening online, it looks very
Christine Burke: ergonomic and it's colorful, so it's visible. When somebody approaches
Christine Burke: you, they'll be able to see that you're actually holding
Christine Burke: something in your hand. I'm sure you've talked about it
Christine Burke: with the other members of your company, and we're curious
Christine Burke: to learn a little bit about how you feel about
Christine Burke: pepper spray or the Sidekick shifting the responsibility for behavior
Christine Burke: and protection onto the women. What would you say to
Christine Burke: somebody who says, " Women shouldn't have to carry anything?"
Ashley Raymond: First, we agree. We wish we didn't want to carry
Ashley Raymond: anything either. I think the ideal run is one where
Ashley Raymond: you do feel safe and free to run with absolutely
Ashley Raymond: nothing on you. You could have your music at the
Ashley Raymond: loudest volume, you could have your hair in a ponytail,
Ashley Raymond: all of these things that sometimes as runners we've been
Ashley Raymond: told not to do, but unfortunately, that's not the reality
Ashley Raymond: of the world we live in today. So if someone
Ashley Raymond: is opposed to carrying something when they run, I just
Ashley Raymond: would love to know that they're doing something else to
Ashley Raymond: still be able to protect themselves if a situation does
Ashley Raymond: arise, because I think unfortunately, even though it shouldn't be
Ashley Raymond: our responsibility as women, it is our responsibility in a
Ashley Raymond: way because the worst thing we can do is do
Ashley Raymond: nothing and have something happen. So it's so, so important
Ashley Raymond: to just stay prepared whatever way that looks like for you.
Meagan Doyle: Yeah. And we don't think that it's fair at all
Meagan Doyle: that it is like this, and it should not be this way. And we hope
Meagan Doyle: that by, again, speaking openly about this and raising awareness
Meagan Doyle: about this being an issue, that eventually, even though it
Meagan Doyle: seems a little idealistic right now, but the burden would
Meagan Doyle: shift to the actual people who are causing these issues
Meagan Doyle: anyway. And with safety products, it is something, like you
Meagan Doyle: mentioned, Christine, that if you're holding it and someone can
Meagan Doyle: see it, then they're actually less likely to even approach
Meagan Doyle: you because you are not seen as an easy target.
Meagan Doyle: So it kind of, just by carrying it, helps somebody
Meagan Doyle: not be in a situation where they will ever need
Meagan Doyle: it. But we also say, too, that we would never say, "
Meagan Doyle: This is the only device you should have," or " You
Meagan Doyle: have to have this, and this is the answer." As
Meagan Doyle: Ashley mentioned, you can have a safety mindset if you
Meagan Doyle: don't carry anything, as long as you are just aware.
Meagan Doyle: And I think the more knowledge that you have of
Meagan Doyle: the situation and different things that could happen, then you're
Meagan Doyle: more prepared in that sense, too.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Absolutely. And I know that you've shared that you've received
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: letters from women who say that your products have helped
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: them. Can you tell us a little bit more about
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: any of those letters or any particular letter or story
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: that stands out for you?
Ashley Raymond: For sure. We have put a lot of effort into
Ashley Raymond: teaching people how to use pepper spray, which might sound
Ashley Raymond: a little funny. We get a ton of comments, " Is
Ashley Raymond: this really something that needs to be practiced?" Well, absolutely.
Ashley Raymond: Anything in life seems easy until you try it for
Ashley Raymond: the first time. And if you've never practiced something, how
Ashley Raymond: can you confidently know that you're going to be able
Ashley Raymond: to use it, especially in a situation where it really
Ashley Raymond: matters to get something right on the first try? So
Ashley Raymond: we have practice sprays that are filled with waters. We've
Ashley Raymond: gone to a ton of different Fleet Feets, run clubs
Ashley Raymond: across the country, teaching people how to use pepper spray
Ashley Raymond: with our pink skeleton Pinky that Meagan found that target.
Ashley Raymond: He's been our best $ 50 investment we've ever made in
Ashley Raymond: Safely. And one story that sticks out in particular is
Ashley Raymond: we had somebody at one of the Fleet Feet events,
Ashley Raymond: practiced using the pepper spray, and life went on. She
Ashley Raymond: went on with her running, and I think it was
Ashley Raymond: about eight months after she had attended the event, I
Ashley Raymond: received a text message one day, and I'd love to
Ashley Raymond: read it-
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: That'd be great.
Ashley Raymond: ... if that's okay. She said, " Hey, Ashley, how are
Ashley Raymond: you doing? I actually had an incident on Saturday and
Ashley Raymond: I got attacked, and luckily, I had my pepper spray.
Ashley Raymond: So I kind of want to educate about everybody about
Ashley Raymond: it, and I would like for you to be there,
Ashley Raymond: too." So she had this happen to her, a very
Ashley Raymond: terrifying incident. We talked on the phone after this, as
Ashley Raymond: well. She was running in her neighborhood during the daytime.
Ashley Raymond: She told me not to be mad, but that she
Ashley Raymond: doesn't always carry a pepper spray on runs, but for
Ashley Raymond: some reason, this particular day, she had this feeling that
Ashley Raymond: she should bring her pepper spray. And I would never
Ashley Raymond: be mad at anyone for not carrying their pepper spray.
Ashley Raymond: Again, I don't think you should have to carry it.
Ashley Raymond: But luckily, she had it this day. And she was
Ashley Raymond: running. She saw a car kind of pull over on
Ashley Raymond: the side of a street, and I think this is
Ashley Raymond: every runner's worst nightmare. She saw a guy get out
Ashley Raymond: of the car. She ran by him and thought, " Okay,
Ashley Raymond: he must just be waiting for somebody. I'm in the
Ashley Raymond: clear," which also I've had that thought many of times
Ashley Raymond: as well, except for her this time, she next found
Ashley Raymond: herself on the ground, and she was able to get
Ashley Raymond: her pepper spray and spray this individual and get away
Ashley Raymond: safely after being knocked to the ground. So a very,
Ashley Raymond: very scary incident and a very real incident, too. And she
Ashley Raymond: sent us this message basically saying she wouldn't have known
Ashley Raymond: what would've happened if she didn't have pepper spray. And
Ashley Raymond: we know why we do this when it comes to
Ashley Raymond: Safely, but hearing the story and knowing that if she
Ashley Raymond: hadn't practiced, if she hadn't carried the device that day,
Ashley Raymond: what would've happened? We spent a little bit of time
Ashley Raymond: crying that day too, just because it's so terrible and
Ashley Raymond: she should have never had that experience in the first place.
Christine Burke: Thank you for sharing. As Erica and I have learned
Christine Burke: significantly over the last couple of weeks, that sharing stories
Christine Burke: and telling about experiences can help people feel that they're
Christine Burke: not alone and look for solutions, be they physical solutions,
Christine Burke: like a Sidekick, or community solutions. So thank you for
Christine Burke: sharing both of your stories, as well as the stories
Christine Burke: of other women you've impacted positively through the starting of
Christine Burke: Safely and development of Sidekick. It's so important, and as
Christine Burke: you mentioned earlier, we hope that we can live in a
Christine Burke: world and run in a world at some point where this
Christine Burke: is completely not necessary and we can put you all
Christine Burke: out of business. But until that day comes, we're really
Christine Burke: grateful for the work that you've done, and what all
Christine Burke: started with a college class and college project is really
Christine Burke: making a difference. So thank you all.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Absolute impact.
Ashley Raymond: Absolutely. Thank you so much.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: I do want to ask a quick question because we
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: know that there are national and local and regional differences.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: How do state laws and regional differences affect access to self-
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: defense tools like Safely?
Meagan Doyle: Yes, there are different restrictions in every state, and then
Meagan Doyle: of course, in different countries, too. But here in the
Meagan Doyle: United States, pepper spray is legal in all 50 states. However,
Meagan Doyle: there are some states that you cannot ship pepper spray
Meagan Doyle: to. New York is one of those states, so if
Meagan Doyle: you live there, unfortunately, you have limited access in the
Meagan Doyle: sense that you have to go to a licensed dealer
Meagan Doyle: to purchase a pepper spray, so that could look like
Meagan Doyle: a gun store or a pharmacy. And it also just
Meagan Doyle: creates even more of, I guess, putting the burden on
Meagan Doyle: women to figure these things out if they want to
Meagan Doyle: get pepper spray. And we are working with a senator
Meagan Doyle: that is in New York to get these laws changed
Meagan Doyle: in order to allow people to ship pepper spray to
Meagan Doyle: New York, also to allow that the legal strength be
Meagan Doyle: raised, because right now, it's half of where it is
Meagan Doyle: everywhere else. And so these are obviously come down to
Meagan Doyle: state and local restrictions and policies there, but it's not
Meagan Doyle: impossible. In California, there used to be similar laws, and
Meagan Doyle: they have changed them since then. So it is hopefully
Meagan Doyle: going to be available in New York and places like
Meagan Doyle: that soon. And then when that happens, then the important
Meagan Doyle: piece will be educating people on the fact that it
Meagan Doyle: is available, because that also is part of the problem
Meagan Doyle: with accessing it is if you don't know that you're
Meagan Doyle: allowed to have it, then women still don't have it
Meagan Doyle: or people who may need it still don't have it.
Meagan Doyle: And yeah.
Christine Burke: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. It's going to take
Christine Burke: all sorts of efforts at the government level, at the
Christine Burke: local level, at the personal level, at the run club
Christine Burke: level to make these changes.
Meagan Doyle: Yes. And we wish that it weren't so complicated. This
Meagan Doyle: law was brought up in, I think, the nineties in New York, so
Meagan Doyle: it's been a long time that it has been this
Meagan Doyle: way. And still, a lot of people don't even know
Meagan Doyle: that they can't get pepper spray shipped to them. We
Meagan Doyle: get a lot of messages from people on social media
Meagan Doyle: or through our website, wondering why they can't check out,
Meagan Doyle: and it's because they live in a state like New
Meagan Doyle: York, and our website handles those restrictions. And then also
Meagan Doyle: with the Sidekick, it has a new, I guess, level
Meagan Doyle: of restrictions with the knuckles, which is a big reason
Meagan Doyle: we also came out with the strap, so places that
Meagan Doyle: had restriction on the knuckles, you could also instead get
Meagan Doyle: a strap. And the practice spray is also something that,
Meagan Doyle: since it has water, is allowed in all of the states
Meagan Doyle: and we can ship. So obviously not ideal to be
Meagan Doyle: carrying around water, have to go find your own pepper
Meagan Doyle: spray to put in there, but it has other tools
Meagan Doyle: that hopefully are helpful.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Thank you both so much. Ashley and Meagan, thank you for
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: the work that you're doing. Thank you for joining us
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: today and the conversation, and we look forward to many
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: more conversations. We know that this is not a one
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: and done, that runner safety is such a complicated issue,
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: and we really do appreciate you for sharing your story
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: and educating men and women across the country. Thanks again.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: That does it for another episode of Set the Pace.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Thank you to today's guest, CEO of Road Runners Club
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: of America, Jean Knaack, and Safely's Ashley Raymond and Meagan Doyle.
Christine Burke: Becs will be back next week with our very own
Christine Burke: Ted Metellus to tell you everything you need to know
Christine Burke: about the upcoming United Airlines NYC half. So make sure
Christine Burke: to tune in next week. If you like this episode,
Christine Burke: please go ahead, subscribe, rate or leave a comment for
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Christine Burke: out about the show, too. Have a great day, everyone.
Erica Edwards-O'Neal: Thank y'all.