WEBVTT - NYC Running Legend Gordon Bakoulis on a Lifetime in Women's Running 0:00:00.510 --> 0:00:03.029 It was an interesting time for women's running. There of 0:00:03.029 --> 0:00:05.309 course were a lot of inequities at the time. They 0:00:05.309 --> 0:00:12.600 had to fight blatant discrimination, misunderstanding, sexism, and just being told, " 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:14.190 No, you can't do this." 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.940 Hey everybody, and welcome to Set the Pace, the official 0:00:20.940 --> 0:00:24.869 podcast of New York Road Runners Presented by Peloton. I'm 0:00:24.870 --> 0:00:27.510 your host, Rob Simmelkjaer, the CEO of New York Road 0:00:27.510 --> 0:00:31.410 Runners. My co- host Peloton instructor Becs Gentry is out 0:00:31.410 --> 0:00:34.500 of town this week. Well, you've probably heard us talk 0:00:34.500 --> 0:00:37.170 about this big year we're having at New York Road 0:00:37.170 --> 0:00:41.460 Runners this year, the 50th anniversary of the 5- Boro 0:00:41.729 --> 0:00:45.360 New York City Marathon. We're celebrating it all year long, 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:47.610 and we took a big step forward in that celebration 0:00:47.940 --> 0:00:53.220 this week. 50 years ago, five people really had the audacious 0:00:53.220 --> 0:00:56.430 idea to take the New York City Marathon out of 0:00:56.430 --> 0:00:59.310 Central Park and those laps that they were running in 0:00:59.310 --> 0:01:02.010 the early years of the marathon, and run it through 0:01:02.010 --> 0:01:05.819 all five boroughs for the very first time. Now, as 0:01:05.819 --> 0:01:08.850 we begin to celebrate that 50th anniversary of the 5- 0:01:08.850 --> 0:01:13.470 Boro Marathon, we're telling their story. Yesterday we launched a 0:01:13.470 --> 0:01:18.300 new campaign called The Trailblazers. Most of us have run 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:22.380 their course without ever even knowing their names. Ted Corbitt, 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:29.010 George Hirsch, Fred Lebow, George Spitz, and Percy Sutton. They 0:01:29.010 --> 0:01:33.240 were the visionaries, the builders, the connectors, and the believers 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:37.830 that really brought the idea of a five- borough New 0:01:37.830 --> 0:01:41.490 York City Marathon to life. They each played a unique 0:01:41.490 --> 0:01:45.390 role in making this vision a reality, and it turns 0:01:45.390 --> 0:01:49.050 out that they turned this impossible idea of a five- 0:01:49.050 --> 0:01:52.020 borough marathon running through the streets of the city into 0:01:52.020 --> 0:01:56.520 a global tradition and a global event that now brings 0:01:56.520 --> 0:01:59.550 people from all over the world to New York City 0:01:59.550 --> 0:02:02.610 once a year, and that has been emulated in major 0:02:02.610 --> 0:02:05.370 cities all around the world. When you look at marathons 0:02:05.370 --> 0:02:09.930 in places like London and Berlin and Chicago and Tokyo, 0:02:10.410 --> 0:02:13.950 that all came from the idea of a marathon running 0:02:13.950 --> 0:02:16.919 through a major city. Of course, Boston had been around 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:19.290 for a while, but Boston had been running from the 0:02:19.290 --> 0:02:22.470 suburbs into the city. This is a marathon that touches 0:02:22.470 --> 0:02:25.050 all parts of New York City, and they really were 0:02:25.050 --> 0:02:28.260 the ones to bring it to life. So over the 0:02:28.260 --> 0:02:30.959 next four months, we're going to be telling their incredible 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:33.600 story. So keep an eye out across all of our 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:37.620 social media channels, on our website, at the Marathon Expo 0:02:37.620 --> 0:02:41.430 this year, in signage across all five boroughs, and on 0:02:41.430 --> 0:02:44.010 the race broadcast of this year's TCS New York City 0:02:44.010 --> 0:02:47.760 Marathon, because we're going to be talking about the trailblazers 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:49.440 all year long. 0:02:49.770 --> 0:02:52.050 History takes the track this summer in New York City. 0:02:52.139 --> 0:02:56.250 Join us for the USATF Outdoor and Para National Championships, 0:02:56.310 --> 0:03:00.180 July 23rd through 26th at Icahn Stadium in New York City as the 0:03:00.300 --> 0:03:04.139 sport celebrates 150 years of outdoor championships. Watch America's best 0:03:04.139 --> 0:03:06.900 athletes compete for national titles and records at one of 0:03:06.900 --> 0:03:10.110 track and field's most iconic venues. Secure your tickets today 0:03:10.110 --> 0:03:15.209 at usatf. org/ tickets. Again, that's usatf. org/ tickets. 0:03:15.570 --> 0:03:18.810 Speaking of the 50th anniversary of the 5- Boro New York City 0:03:18.810 --> 0:03:21.690 Marathon, when it ran through five boroughs for the first 0:03:21.690 --> 0:03:26.760 time in 1976, only 63 women crossed the finish line 0:03:26.820 --> 0:03:32.639 that year. In 2025, over 27,000 crossed the TCS New 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:35.670 York City Marathon finish line in Central Park. So how 0:03:35.670 --> 0:03:41.430 did we get from 63 to 27, 156 women running the New 0:03:41.430 --> 0:03:44.070 York City Marathon? Our guest today is one of the 0:03:44.070 --> 0:03:48.780 rare people who can really answer that story, Gordon Bakoulis. 0:03:49.020 --> 0:03:51.630 Coach Gordon, to many of you, is a five- time 0:03:51.630 --> 0:03:55.950 Olympic marathon trials qualifier who began running just two years 0:03:55.950 --> 0:04:02.940 after that game- changing 5- Boro Marathon in 1976. She 0:04:02.970 --> 0:04:05.940 was a legend who came up in the sport just 0:04:05.940 --> 0:04:09.810 as women's distance running was really being invented around her. 0:04:09.870 --> 0:04:13.440 Gordon is also New York Road Runners' editorial director, which 0:04:13.770 --> 0:04:17.760 makes her the keeper of this organization's stories. And today, 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:21.690 as she prepares to retire after an incredible 24- year 0:04:21.690 --> 0:04:25.049 run at New York Road Runners, she's finally joined us 0:04:25.050 --> 0:04:28.080 here on Set the Pace to tell her own story. 0:04:28.410 --> 0:04:31.680 Gordon, I know you've been a pretty regular listener to 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.859 Set the Pace. You've made sure that all of our 0:04:34.860 --> 0:04:37.680 stories were accurate all this time. So it's great to 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:39.089 actually have you on the podcast. 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:41.880 Thanks, Rob. It's great to be here. Yeah, long- time 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:43.770 listener, first- time guest. 0:04:43.830 --> 0:04:47.730 Long- time listener, first- time guest. Exactly. Well, it's a great, 0:04:47.730 --> 0:04:49.740 great time to have you on. So thanks for joining 0:04:49.740 --> 0:04:52.049 us. Before we jump in, by the way, we're going 0:04:52.050 --> 0:04:54.630 to share a few numbers with our listeners. I'm going 0:04:54.630 --> 0:04:56.910 to tease them, and then they'll come out as we 0:04:56.910 --> 0:04:59.460 go through this conversation. So some numbers to keep in 0:04:59.460 --> 0:05:03.990 the back of your mind if you're listening. 468, 33, 0:05:04.470 --> 0:05:11.640 239, 370, and 3044. So we'll get through and to all of 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:16.260 those numbers as we talk. But let's start, Gordon, about 0:05:16.290 --> 0:05:19.860 the marathon then and now. As you know, we're close 0:05:19.860 --> 0:05:24.450 to 60,000 runners now in the marathon, a drawing that 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.419 the vast majority of people who enter lose when they 0:05:27.420 --> 0:05:29.790 try. Lots of different ways in, but it's such a 0:05:29.790 --> 0:05:32.640 hard thing to get into now, as you know. You 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:36.089 started running as a high- schooler in the late '70s 0:05:36.450 --> 0:05:39.779 two years after the first 5- Boro Race when only 0:05:39.779 --> 0:05:42.930 63 women finished, as I said before. What do you 0:05:42.990 --> 0:05:46.950 remember about being a woman in the sport of distance 0:05:46.950 --> 0:05:48.240 running back in those days? 0:05:48.750 --> 0:05:53.610 Yeah, no, it was a different time. It was definitely a different 0:05:53.610 --> 0:05:57.930 era. I started running my senior year of high school 0:05:58.230 --> 0:06:00.960 in the fall of that year, that was 1978. And 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:03.540 as you said, just two years after the first 5- 0:06:03.540 --> 0:06:07.980 Boro New York City Marathon. I honestly do not remember 0:06:07.980 --> 0:06:11.100 the first 5- Boro New York City Marathon. I was 15, 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:15.779 and my dad actually had just started running maybe about 0:06:15.779 --> 0:06:20.969 a year before that. He started running in late 1975. 0:06:20.970 --> 0:06:26.910 So I was adjacent to that sort of first beginnings 0:06:26.910 --> 0:06:31.200 of the running boom, the 1970s running boom. I also 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:38.940 remember 1972 when I was 11, Frank Shorter winning the Olympic marathon in Munich. 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:44.909 An American winner, he won just so triumphantly. He was 0:06:44.910 --> 0:06:46.740 so far ahead of the field, he made it look 0:06:46.740 --> 0:06:51.300 so effortless. So that caught a lot of people's attention, 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:56.670 people within and outside the running world. But it didn't 0:06:56.670 --> 0:07:00.390 really cause the running boom to explode at the time, 0:07:00.930 --> 0:07:04.620 but it got people's attention. And then there was just 0:07:04.620 --> 0:07:09.600 this sort of groundswell of increased interest in running. And 0:07:09.630 --> 0:07:12.630 like I said, my dad, he was typical of new 0:07:12.630 --> 0:07:16.260 runners at the time. He was not competitive. He didn't 0:07:16.260 --> 0:07:21.120 have any lofty aspirations. It was for him, just he 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:26.820 was in his early 40s making some overall lifestyle changes 0:07:26.820 --> 0:07:33.300 for better health. Actually, he was in a Twelve Step 0:07:33.300 --> 0:07:38.760 program for recovery from alcoholism, and several of his friends 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:41.310 in the program were runners. And they said, " It's a 0:07:41.310 --> 0:07:44.580 really good way to healthy up your lifestyle, get away 0:07:44.580 --> 0:07:49.800 from your drinking buddies." And so that for him was 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:52.860 the impetus to start running. And he ran the New 0:07:52.860 --> 0:07:56.460 York City Marathon twice actually in 1978, the year I 0:07:56.460 --> 0:08:01.020 started, and again in 1980. So I was sort of 0:08:01.020 --> 0:08:07.500 adjacent to that early running boom culture. And most of 0:08:07.500 --> 0:08:10.620 his running buddies were men, but not all of them. 0:08:10.620 --> 0:08:14.430 There were a few women in his little running cohort, 0:08:14.430 --> 0:08:19.110 running community. So it wasn't odd to me to be 0:08:19.110 --> 0:08:24.330 around women runners. But for me, yeah, it was again, 0:08:24.750 --> 0:08:29.160 a healthy lifestyle thing. I was 17. I had always 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.100 done sports. I loved sports, but I wasn't any good 0:08:32.100 --> 0:08:36.870 at any sport. I loved to run up and down 0:08:36.870 --> 0:08:39.210 the soccer field, run up and down the lacrosse field, 0:08:39.210 --> 0:08:42.480 the field hockey field. But when it came to the 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:47.730 actual skills, I just didn't really have them. So being 0:08:47.850 --> 0:08:52.200 good at sports wasn't my jam, although I loved sports. 0:08:53.340 --> 0:08:55.231 Until you started running. Yeah. 0:08:55.231 --> 0:08:55.620 Yeah. Yeah. 0:08:55.620 --> 0:08:55.679 Yeah. 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:56.071 I started running with a friend. 0:08:56.071 --> 0:08:56.072 You found out. 0:08:56.072 --> 0:09:05.340 And it was love at first step. It really was. It 0:09:05.340 --> 0:09:09.689 was an interesting time for women's running. It was the 0:09:09.690 --> 0:09:14.130 real pioneers. People call me a pioneer sometimes, but I 0:09:14.130 --> 0:09:16.949 feel like I just ran through the doors that the 0:09:16.950 --> 0:09:21.390 real pioneers of women's running opened for me. People like 0:09:21.390 --> 0:09:26.610 Kathrine Switzer, Nina Kuscsik, Grete Waitz, Joan Benoit Samuelson. They 0:09:26.610 --> 0:09:33.900 had to fight blatant discrimination, misunderstanding, sexism, and just being told, " 0:09:33.900 --> 0:09:37.440 No, you can't do this." And I never had to 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:41.010 overcome those obstacles. The doors were open, and I simply 0:09:41.010 --> 0:09:44.520 ran through them. So it was great. And I didn't 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:47.189 realize until many years later that there of course were 0:09:47.190 --> 0:09:49.829 a lot of inequities at the time. Women couldn't run 0:09:49.830 --> 0:09:53.790 the Olympic marathon. They couldn't even run the 10, 000 when 0:09:53.790 --> 0:09:55.890 those doors had just been opened, and there were a 0:09:55.890 --> 0:09:57.929 lot of people who felt like women still had to 0:09:58.050 --> 0:09:59.970 prove themselves as runners. 0:10:00.179 --> 0:10:00.569 Yeah. 0:10:00.870 --> 0:10:04.050 But for me, it felt great. The doors were open, 0:10:04.230 --> 0:10:07.050 felt like we were an army rather than just a 0:10:07.050 --> 0:10:10.500 little sliver, and I loved it. I loved it right 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:11.100 from the start. 0:10:11.100 --> 0:10:14.910 Tell me about your running. So did you start out running the mile? 0:10:14.910 --> 0:10:15.000 Mm- hmm. 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:17.251 Was that the first event you really focused on? 0:10:17.251 --> 0:10:17.491 Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 0:10:17.730 --> 0:10:22.319 That's typical for high school athletes. When did you realize, " 0:10:22.470 --> 0:10:24.959 Wow, I'm pretty good at this"? Because my understanding is 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.320 you made it all the way to the States that 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:28.920 first year. 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.679 Yeah. Yeah, I did pretty quickly. I ran with my 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:35.099 friend, a friend in the neighborhood who had been on 0:10:35.100 --> 0:10:37.470 the track team and didn't want to do winter track. 0:10:37.470 --> 0:10:40.140 She wanted to just stay in shape for spring track. 0:10:40.140 --> 0:10:43.470 So she coaxed me to get up early and run 0:10:43.470 --> 0:10:46.170 around the neighborhood a few mornings a week, real slow, 0:10:46.170 --> 0:10:50.579 real easy, conversational, and I loved that. And then the 0:10:50.580 --> 0:10:53.640 following spring when she went out for spring track, I 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:55.980 was right there with her. I didn't want to play 0:10:55.980 --> 0:10:59.309 lacrosse anymore and spend more time warming the bench than 0:10:59.309 --> 0:11:02.280 actually participating. So I went out for spring track and 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.089 pretty quickly. I wasn't a sprinter at all, and I 0:11:06.090 --> 0:11:09.420 knew that. But I ran the 800, the mile, and the 0:11:09.420 --> 0:11:12.750 two mile because I couldn't run fast, but I could 0:11:12.750 --> 0:11:15.750 just run and run and run. And I did make 0:11:15.750 --> 0:11:18.720 it all the way to the state meet and realized, " 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:20.760 Oh wow, here's a sport that I'm good at. Too 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:24.840 bad I didn't discover this earlier." But I'm always really 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:28.380 grateful that I had that gentle introduction to running those 0:11:28.380 --> 0:11:33.120 few months, just enjoying the camaraderie, enjoying being up early, 0:11:33.390 --> 0:11:36.690 exploring the neighborhood, chatting with my friend. We formed a 0:11:36.690 --> 0:11:39.030 really strong bond where the two of us are still 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:43.439 great friends to this day. So I had that nice 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:46.710 gentle introduction and then also the realization, " Oh, this is 0:11:46.710 --> 0:11:49.230 great. This is awesome. This is something I could be 0:11:49.230 --> 0:11:49.650 good at." 0:11:50.970 --> 0:11:54.150 Yeah. And where did it go from there? I know 0:11:54.150 --> 0:11:58.290 you got clocked in a couple different places, people seeing 0:11:58.290 --> 0:12:02.880 you running fast times in the Mini 10K and some 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:06.780 other events. When did you get, quote, unquote, discovered, if 0:12:06.780 --> 0:12:08.370 you will, as someone who could really run at a 0:12:08.370 --> 0:12:08.790 high level? 0:12:08.790 --> 0:12:14.309 Yeah, it was funny. I went to University of Virginia 0:12:14.309 --> 0:12:16.920 where there was a great running program. But because I 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:20.429 had just started my senior year of high school, I 0:12:20.429 --> 0:12:23.970 didn't get recruited or anything. And I didn't really even 0:12:24.059 --> 0:12:27.780 consider running there when I made friends with some of 0:12:27.780 --> 0:12:29.820 the women on the team, and I saw what they 0:12:29.820 --> 0:12:32.760 were doing running 100 miles a week. And I was just like, "No, no, no, 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.160 no. That's not what I want to do in college 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:38.400 anyway." So again, I was sort of adjacent to that, 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.550 but not involved in that program. So through college, I 0:12:41.550 --> 0:12:46.979 just ran the way any recreational runner would. And I 0:12:46.980 --> 0:12:50.160 also did a lot of other sports to just stay 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:53.429 fit and sane and take study breaks and stuff like 0:12:53.429 --> 0:12:56.610 that. And then I moved to the New York area 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:59.100 when I graduated. I'd moved back to this area. I'm 0:12:59.100 --> 0:13:03.660 from New Jersey, but moved into the city in 1983. 0:13:03.660 --> 0:13:09.059 And in 1984, I wanted to run a marathon. So 0:13:09.059 --> 0:13:12.840 what better marathon than New York, of course? And as 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:17.250 you were alluding to earlier, it was a lot easier 0:13:17.250 --> 0:13:21.600 to get into the marathon in those days. By that 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:25.140 point we had started with the lottery, but the odds 0:13:25.140 --> 0:13:28.830 were much, much, much better. So I applied and got 0:13:28.830 --> 0:13:32.820 in, and ran the marathon for fun. I ran three 0:13:32.820 --> 0:13:38.189 hours and 40 minutes, which was still good, but definitely not 0:13:38.820 --> 0:13:45.900 at all at the top competitive level, and loved it. 0:13:45.900 --> 0:13:49.020 I mean, all the things that we say about the 0:13:49.020 --> 0:13:52.079 New York City Marathon just absolutely worked their magic on 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:54.959 me. It was just a stunning way to see the 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:58.470 city. I'd been living in New York for less than 0:13:58.470 --> 0:14:00.570 a year. I don't think I'd ever even been to 0:14:00.570 --> 0:14:05.190 Queens, certainly never run over the Verrazzano- Narrows Bridge or 0:14:05.190 --> 0:14:09.599 any of those bridges. And just it was amazing. It 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:13.170 was like, " Wow, this is phenomenal." It was hard. I 0:14:13.170 --> 0:14:18.840 was definitely undertrained and didn't know all that really any 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:21.150 of us know today about fueling and hydration and all 0:14:21.150 --> 0:14:24.390 those things, but it was great. It was a really 0:14:24.420 --> 0:14:29.190 great experience. Still didn't think about trying to run fast 0:14:29.190 --> 0:14:31.170 again, even though in the back of my mind it 0:14:31.170 --> 0:14:35.160 was like, " Yeah yeah yeah, I was a state qualifying 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:39.450 runner back in high school." But the following spring, I 0:14:39.450 --> 0:14:42.570 just started to test myself. I'd go run around the 0:14:42.570 --> 0:14:45.030 Reservoir in Central Park to see if I could run 0:14:45.030 --> 0:14:47.910 faster today than I had run yesterday or last week 0:14:47.910 --> 0:14:50.820 or whatever. And I guess I got pretty fast because 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:55.920 when the Mini 10K rolled around, the Women's Mini 10K 0:14:56.280 --> 0:15:01.260 in June, I ran that. I ran sub 40 minutes, 38- 0:15:01.260 --> 0:15:05.640 something, and met up with a friend afterwards who had 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:08.250 gone to UVA and had run for the team there. 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:11.010 And she said, " Yeah, yeah, I run for this team, 0:15:11.010 --> 0:15:14.130 Atalanta. It's a women's running team. You should come out 0:15:14.130 --> 0:15:19.410 to a workout." So I did. And again, right away, 0:15:19.470 --> 0:15:23.850 found success. I was leading the workouts and I started 0:15:23.850 --> 0:15:28.500 running, cut my time in the 10K really quickly. And 0:15:29.250 --> 0:15:34.170 that was my reintroduction to competitive running. And it was 0:15:34.170 --> 0:15:40.410 great. Again, just success and a lot of learning. We 0:15:40.410 --> 0:15:43.770 had a wonderful coach, Bob Glover, the legendary Bob Glover- 0:15:43.770 --> 0:15:43.771 Yes. 0:15:43.771 --> 0:15:48.690 ... who ran the New York Road Runners, what was the 0:15:48.690 --> 0:15:53.160 precursor, the predecessor of our group training program for years. 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:57.030 He had started it in the '70s, and he continued in 0:15:57.030 --> 0:16:01.530 that role until 2015. He's a super legend, and he 0:16:01.530 --> 0:16:06.090 was a great coach and a real, real believer in women's 0:16:06.090 --> 0:16:12.450 running, equality for women. So I just stuck with that 0:16:12.450 --> 0:16:15.210 and had some ups and downs, injuries as we all 0:16:15.210 --> 0:16:19.230 do and that sort of thing. But just his belief 0:16:19.260 --> 0:16:22.500 in women's running and his dedication to women's running and 0:16:22.500 --> 0:16:26.520 then opening my eyes. I had no idea how one 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:32.430 got on an Olympic team or really what adult women's post- 0:16:32.430 --> 0:16:35.700 collegiate running was all about. So that was my introduction. 0:16:36.990 --> 0:16:42.210 Yeah. And then it went from that 1984 marathon at 3: 0:16:42.210 --> 0:16:46.920 40 to cut to a few years later at Grandma's 0:16:47.910 --> 0:16:52.020 and quite a bit of improvement for you. So nearly 0:16:52.020 --> 0:16:53.010 an hour faster- 0:16:53.010 --> 0:16:53.011 Exactly. 0:16:53.011 --> 0:16:57.780 ... in that marathon that qualified you for the Olympic 0:16:57.780 --> 0:17:01.980 trials. Take us to the moment you crossed that finish 0:17:01.980 --> 0:17:06.810 line in 1987, understanding what you'd done. I assume you knew 0:17:06.810 --> 0:17:07.771 the time. Did you know the time- 0:17:07.771 --> 0:17:07.772 I did. 0:17:07.772 --> 0:17:10.920 ... you had to hit to qualify for the Olympics trial? 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:14.310 Yeah, the standard, I don't know if this is accurate, but 0:17:14.369 --> 0:17:17.220 I think it was like 2: 51. The standards were a 0:17:17.220 --> 0:17:19.109 little more lenient back then. I mean, it post pre-supershoes- 0:17:19.350 --> 0:17:19.411 Of course. 0:17:19.411 --> 0:17:25.859 ... whenever I tell people my PRs, it's always, " Oh, 0:17:25.859 --> 0:17:29.910 and I did it all without supershoes, by the way." Yeah, I think 2: 0:17:30.420 --> 0:17:34.830 51 is what it was. And again, I just didn't 0:17:34.830 --> 0:17:37.379 know anything about this at all. I give Bob Glover 0:17:37.890 --> 0:17:41.040 all the credit in the world, plus the teammates that 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.439 I had who had had experience, who had run in 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:48.450 the '84 trials. And I, one, didn't know how it 0:17:48.450 --> 0:17:51.240 all worked, how you qualified for the Olympics and that 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:55.080 sort of thing. And two, really had a limited understanding 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.919 of how new this all was for women. As I'm 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:03.869 sure you know, 1984 was the first year that a 0:18:03.869 --> 0:18:10.470 women's Olympic marathon happened, and that was Los Angeles, Joan 0:18:10.470 --> 0:18:14.730 Benoit Samuelson, American of course won the gold medal. And 0:18:15.150 --> 0:18:17.520 I just didn't know that that at all happened just 0:18:19.410 --> 0:18:23.460 a couple of years before I got into the sport. 0:18:24.090 --> 0:18:28.139 And so Bob had to educate me, Bob and my teammates. " 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:31.500 Okay, this is how it works. You go to a 0:18:31.500 --> 0:18:35.280 race that's sanctioned, you run the time, and then you 0:18:35.340 --> 0:18:37.500 can go run the Olympic trials. And then at the 0:18:37.500 --> 0:18:40.919 trials the top three across the line, as long as 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.740 they've hit the Olympic standard, go to the Olympics." It's 0:18:43.740 --> 0:18:49.290 like, "Oh, okay, that sounds cool." So yes, Grandma's Marathon in 0:18:49.290 --> 0:18:53.160 1987, I had tried to qualify at New York in 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:57.359 1986. But I developed an injury during training with plantar 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:02.001 fasciitis and really standing on the starting line, the very (inaudible) 0:19:02.001 --> 0:19:05.399 it was like, " This isn't going to happen. My heel 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:07.859 hurts a lot right now, and I'm not even running 0:19:07.859 --> 0:19:08.040 yet." 0:19:09.390 --> 0:19:09.780 That's (inaudible) Yeah. 0:19:09.780 --> 0:19:12.600 So that's one of the only two marathons in my career that I 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:17.220 dropped out of, and I was devastated. But again, Bob and 0:19:17.220 --> 0:19:19.680 my teammates just said, " Oh, you got plenty of time. 0:19:19.859 --> 0:19:22.470 Injuries heal." That was my first major injury, and I 0:19:22.470 --> 0:19:25.020 was like, " Oh, I'll never run again," as we all 0:19:25.020 --> 0:19:29.040 do. But yeah, I healed up fine. And then the 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:34.590 following spring, 1987, and I had run half- marathons in close 0:19:34.590 --> 0:19:38.310 to 1: 20. So I knew that the formula, double it 0:19:38.310 --> 0:19:40.859 and add 10 minutes, I should have a little bit 0:19:40.859 --> 0:19:44.580 of a breathing room there. But Grandma's, I don't know 0:19:44.580 --> 0:19:46.501 if you've ever run that marathon. It just happened last weekend. 0:19:46.501 --> 0:19:46.502 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 0:19:46.502 --> 0:19:50.909 It's a wonderful, wonderful race out in Duluth, Minnesota along 0:19:50.910 --> 0:19:53.730 the shores of Lake Superior, flat. It can be very 0:19:53.730 --> 0:19:57.840 fast depending on the weather. But if you have any 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:00.510 kind of a tailwind, it's like Boston. If you have 0:20:00.510 --> 0:20:02.640 a tailwind, it's a tailwind the whole way. We had 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:05.879 a tailwind that year, and it was great. And I 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:10.170 just remember Bob, several of us ran. So Bob came 0:20:10.170 --> 0:20:12.629 out to watch and cheer, and he was on the 0:20:12.630 --> 0:20:15.660 course at about mile 24. And he just said, not 0:20:15.660 --> 0:20:19.020 even like that loudly, very quietly, " You've got this," as 0:20:19.020 --> 0:20:21.210 I went by. And it was just like the best 0:20:21.210 --> 0:20:23.670 feeling in the world, " Yeah, I'm going to qualify for 0:20:23.670 --> 0:20:24.690 the Olympic trials." 0:20:24.900 --> 0:20:24.960 Yeah. Yeah. 0:20:27.210 --> 0:20:32.310 I'm sure I ran just over 2: 46, 2:46.0 something, gave 0:20:32.310 --> 0:20:36.000 me a nice little buffer there. So yeah, that was 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:38.130 that. I was off to the Olympic trials, which were 0:20:38.130 --> 0:20:42.780 in 1988 in Pittsburgh and improved a lot there as 0:20:42.780 --> 0:20:47.129 well. Although never in that race did I entertain thoughts of, " 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:51.180 Oh, I could make the Olympic team." Because the winners, 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:55.560 the top women entered in that race were significantly at 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:56.820 a higher level than I was. 0:20:57.000 --> 0:20:57.001 (inaudible) 0:20:56.820 --> 0:21:01.440 But it felt like my Olympics just going to something 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:04.860 that has the word Olympic in it was like, " Oh, that's good enough for me." 0:21:04.860 --> 0:21:09.000 I think that's exactly right. For anybody who, I mean a lot 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.750 of women and men on the men's side get there, 0:21:13.109 --> 0:21:14.850 and that's their big day. 0:21:14.850 --> 0:21:15.210 I agree. 0:21:15.300 --> 0:21:17.220 That's their big moment. Only a few are going to 0:21:17.220 --> 0:21:20.369 make the actual Olympics, but dozens get to have that 0:21:20.369 --> 0:21:22.169 day, which is one of the things I love about 0:21:22.470 --> 0:21:26.520 that format. What is most remarkable to me about you? 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:28.140 I mean, there's a lot of remarkable things about you, 0:21:28.140 --> 0:21:32.040 but in terms of your running career, the longevity and 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:36.780 the consistency that you were able to have over such 0:21:36.780 --> 0:21:39.270 a long period of time. Not one, not two, not 0:21:39.270 --> 0:21:44.609 three, not four, five Olympic trials, five cycles of that, 0:21:44.910 --> 0:21:47.490 you were able to come back again and again and 0:21:47.490 --> 0:21:51.060 again and meet that standard and get to that day. 0:21:51.060 --> 0:21:53.400 And so I have two questions for you. How did you 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:57.119 do that? What was the secret to your longevity? And 0:21:57.119 --> 0:21:59.850 then, what was the year that you felt you maybe 0:21:59.850 --> 0:22:01.770 had a chance to actually make it? What was your 0:22:01.770 --> 0:22:04.980 closest or the year you felt you actually maybe could 0:22:05.250 --> 0:22:06.721 pull it off in terms of getting to the Olympics? 0:22:06.721 --> 0:22:09.810 Yeah. Yeah, no, those are great questions. And I think 0:22:11.070 --> 0:22:14.850 they speak to just the system that we have in 0:22:14.850 --> 0:22:17.699 this country for choosing our Olympic teams. I think the 0:22:17.700 --> 0:22:22.440 trial system, you could debate it all day because there's 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:27.869 pros and cons. But I think the pro, the biggest 0:22:28.170 --> 0:22:30.990 selling point for a trial system is that it does 0:22:30.990 --> 0:22:37.320 create this aspirational environment where you really aspire to even 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:39.359 make it to the trials. Because you're right, it's not 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:43.200 easy. And then you just have to show up on 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:46.889 the day. And so that atmosphere on the start line 0:22:46.890 --> 0:22:50.880 of the trials when you know in your heart at hearts, " 0:22:51.270 --> 0:22:53.850 She's here, she's here, she's here, I'm probably not going 0:22:53.850 --> 0:22:56.940 to make the team." But you could, in theory. 0:22:56.970 --> 0:23:00.090 Yeah, that's right. You could have a good day. Other people have not such 0:23:00.090 --> 0:23:00.270 a good day. 0:23:00.270 --> 0:23:00.720 Exactly. 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:01.109 There you go. 0:23:01.109 --> 0:23:03.540 Until the race is actually run, you don't know how 0:23:03.540 --> 0:23:07.410 it's going to come out. So that drew me in 0:23:07.470 --> 0:23:10.889 the first time. I'd never experienced anything like that. And 0:23:11.430 --> 0:23:13.920 fortunately, I had a really good day, which probably helped. 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:18.420 I came in 17th in 1988 with the 2: 37, 0:23:19.590 --> 0:23:23.940 and it was just intoxicating. The atmosphere, just the way 0:23:23.940 --> 0:23:27.990 the trials athletes are treated, at all the trials that 0:23:27.990 --> 0:23:32.250