Gordon Bakoulis: It was an interesting time for women's running. There of
Gordon Bakoulis: course were a lot of inequities at the time. They
Gordon Bakoulis: had to fight blatant discrimination, misunderstanding, sexism, and just being told, "
Gordon Bakoulis: No, you can't do this."
Rob Simmelkjaer: Hey everybody, and welcome to Set the Pace, the official
Rob Simmelkjaer: podcast of New York Road Runners Presented by Peloton. I'm
Rob Simmelkjaer: your host, Rob Simmelkjaer, the CEO of New York Road
Rob Simmelkjaer: Runners. My co- host Peloton instructor Becs Gentry is out
Rob Simmelkjaer: of town this week. Well, you've probably heard us talk
Rob Simmelkjaer: about this big year we're having at New York Road
Rob Simmelkjaer: Runners this year, the 50th anniversary of the 5- Boro
Rob Simmelkjaer: New York City Marathon. We're celebrating it all year long,
Rob Simmelkjaer: and we took a big step forward in that celebration
Rob Simmelkjaer: this week. 50 years ago, five people really had the audacious
Rob Simmelkjaer: idea to take the New York City Marathon out of
Rob Simmelkjaer: Central Park and those laps that they were running in
Rob Simmelkjaer: the early years of the marathon, and run it through
Rob Simmelkjaer: all five boroughs for the very first time. Now, as
Rob Simmelkjaer: we begin to celebrate that 50th anniversary of the 5-
Rob Simmelkjaer: Boro Marathon, we're telling their story. Yesterday we launched a
Rob Simmelkjaer: new campaign called The Trailblazers. Most of us have run
Rob Simmelkjaer: their course without ever even knowing their names. Ted Corbitt,
Rob Simmelkjaer: George Hirsch, Fred Lebow, George Spitz, and Percy Sutton. They
Rob Simmelkjaer: were the visionaries, the builders, the connectors, and the believers
Rob Simmelkjaer: that really brought the idea of a five- borough New
Rob Simmelkjaer: York City Marathon to life. They each played a unique
Rob Simmelkjaer: role in making this vision a reality, and it turns
Rob Simmelkjaer: out that they turned this impossible idea of a five-
Rob Simmelkjaer: borough marathon running through the streets of the city into
Rob Simmelkjaer: a global tradition and a global event that now brings
Rob Simmelkjaer: people from all over the world to New York City
Rob Simmelkjaer: once a year, and that has been emulated in major
Rob Simmelkjaer: cities all around the world. When you look at marathons
Rob Simmelkjaer: in places like London and Berlin and Chicago and Tokyo,
Rob Simmelkjaer: that all came from the idea of a marathon running
Rob Simmelkjaer: through a major city. Of course, Boston had been around
Rob Simmelkjaer: for a while, but Boston had been running from the
Rob Simmelkjaer: suburbs into the city. This is a marathon that touches
Rob Simmelkjaer: all parts of New York City, and they really were
Rob Simmelkjaer: the ones to bring it to life. So over the
Rob Simmelkjaer: next four months, we're going to be telling their incredible
Rob Simmelkjaer: story. So keep an eye out across all of our
Rob Simmelkjaer: social media channels, on our website, at the Marathon Expo
Rob Simmelkjaer: this year, in signage across all five boroughs, and on
Rob Simmelkjaer: the race broadcast of this year's TCS New York City
Rob Simmelkjaer: Marathon, because we're going to be talking about the trailblazers
Rob Simmelkjaer: all year long.
Announcer: History takes the track this summer in New York City.
Announcer: Join us for the USATF Outdoor and Para National Championships,
Announcer: July 23rd through 26th at Icahn Stadium in New York City as the
Announcer: sport celebrates 150 years of outdoor championships. Watch America's best
Announcer: athletes compete for national titles and records at one of
Announcer: track and field's most iconic venues. Secure your tickets today
Announcer: at usatf. org/ tickets. Again, that's usatf. org/ tickets.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Speaking of the 50th anniversary of the 5- Boro New York City
Rob Simmelkjaer: Marathon, when it ran through five boroughs for the first
Rob Simmelkjaer: time in 1976, only 63 women crossed the finish line
Rob Simmelkjaer: that year. In 2025, over 27,000 crossed the TCS New
Rob Simmelkjaer: York City Marathon finish line in Central Park. So how
Rob Simmelkjaer: did we get from 63 to 27, 156 women running the New
Rob Simmelkjaer: York City Marathon? Our guest today is one of the
Rob Simmelkjaer: rare people who can really answer that story, Gordon Bakoulis.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Coach Gordon, to many of you, is a five- time
Rob Simmelkjaer: Olympic marathon trials qualifier who began running just two years
Rob Simmelkjaer: after that game- changing 5- Boro Marathon in 1976. She
Rob Simmelkjaer: was a legend who came up in the sport just
Rob Simmelkjaer: as women's distance running was really being invented around her.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Gordon is also New York Road Runners' editorial director, which
Rob Simmelkjaer: makes her the keeper of this organization's stories. And today,
Rob Simmelkjaer: as she prepares to retire after an incredible 24- year
Rob Simmelkjaer: run at New York Road Runners, she's finally joined us
Rob Simmelkjaer: here on Set the Pace to tell her own story.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Gordon, I know you've been a pretty regular listener to
Rob Simmelkjaer: Set the Pace. You've made sure that all of our
Rob Simmelkjaer: stories were accurate all this time. So it's great to
Rob Simmelkjaer: actually have you on the podcast.
Gordon Bakoulis: Thanks, Rob. It's great to be here. Yeah, long- time
Gordon Bakoulis: listener, first- time guest.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Long- time listener, first- time guest. Exactly. Well, it's a great,
Rob Simmelkjaer: great time to have you on. So thanks for joining
Rob Simmelkjaer: us. Before we jump in, by the way, we're going
Rob Simmelkjaer: to share a few numbers with our listeners. I'm going
Rob Simmelkjaer: to tease them, and then they'll come out as we
Rob Simmelkjaer: go through this conversation. So some numbers to keep in
Rob Simmelkjaer: the back of your mind if you're listening. 468, 33,
Rob Simmelkjaer: 239, 370, and 3044. So we'll get through and to all of
Rob Simmelkjaer: those numbers as we talk. But let's start, Gordon, about
Rob Simmelkjaer: the marathon then and now. As you know, we're close
Rob Simmelkjaer: to 60,000 runners now in the marathon, a drawing that
Rob Simmelkjaer: the vast majority of people who enter lose when they
Rob Simmelkjaer: try. Lots of different ways in, but it's such a
Rob Simmelkjaer: hard thing to get into now, as you know. You
Rob Simmelkjaer: started running as a high- schooler in the late '70s
Rob Simmelkjaer: two years after the first 5- Boro Race when only
Rob Simmelkjaer: 63 women finished, as I said before. What do you
Rob Simmelkjaer: remember about being a woman in the sport of distance
Rob Simmelkjaer: running back in those days?
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah, no, it was a different time. It was definitely a different
Gordon Bakoulis: era. I started running my senior year of high school
Gordon Bakoulis: in the fall of that year, that was 1978. And
Gordon Bakoulis: as you said, just two years after the first 5-
Gordon Bakoulis: Boro New York City Marathon. I honestly do not remember
Gordon Bakoulis: the first 5- Boro New York City Marathon. I was 15,
Gordon Bakoulis: and my dad actually had just started running maybe about
Gordon Bakoulis: a year before that. He started running in late 1975.
Gordon Bakoulis: So I was adjacent to that sort of first beginnings
Gordon Bakoulis: of the running boom, the 1970s running boom. I also
Gordon Bakoulis: remember 1972 when I was 11, Frank Shorter winning the Olympic marathon in Munich.
Gordon Bakoulis: An American winner, he won just so triumphantly. He was
Gordon Bakoulis: so far ahead of the field, he made it look
Gordon Bakoulis: so effortless. So that caught a lot of people's attention,
Gordon Bakoulis: people within and outside the running world. But it didn't
Gordon Bakoulis: really cause the running boom to explode at the time,
Gordon Bakoulis: but it got people's attention. And then there was just
Gordon Bakoulis: this sort of groundswell of increased interest in running. And
Gordon Bakoulis: like I said, my dad, he was typical of new
Gordon Bakoulis: runners at the time. He was not competitive. He didn't
Gordon Bakoulis: have any lofty aspirations. It was for him, just he
Gordon Bakoulis: was in his early 40s making some overall lifestyle changes
Gordon Bakoulis: for better health. Actually, he was in a Twelve Step
Gordon Bakoulis: program for recovery from alcoholism, and several of his friends
Gordon Bakoulis: in the program were runners. And they said, " It's a
Gordon Bakoulis: really good way to healthy up your lifestyle, get away
Gordon Bakoulis: from your drinking buddies." And so that for him was
Gordon Bakoulis: the impetus to start running. And he ran the New
Gordon Bakoulis: York City Marathon twice actually in 1978, the year I
Gordon Bakoulis: started, and again in 1980. So I was sort of
Gordon Bakoulis: adjacent to that early running boom culture. And most of
Gordon Bakoulis: his running buddies were men, but not all of them.
Gordon Bakoulis: There were a few women in his little running cohort,
Gordon Bakoulis: running community. So it wasn't odd to me to be
Gordon Bakoulis: around women runners. But for me, yeah, it was again,
Gordon Bakoulis: a healthy lifestyle thing. I was 17. I had always
Gordon Bakoulis: done sports. I loved sports, but I wasn't any good
Gordon Bakoulis: at any sport. I loved to run up and down
Gordon Bakoulis: the soccer field, run up and down the lacrosse field,
Gordon Bakoulis: the field hockey field. But when it came to the
Gordon Bakoulis: actual skills, I just didn't really have them. So being
Gordon Bakoulis: good at sports wasn't my jam, although I loved sports.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Until you started running. Yeah.
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah.
Gordon Bakoulis: I started running with a friend.
Rob Simmelkjaer: You found out.
Gordon Bakoulis: And it was love at first step. It really was. It
Gordon Bakoulis: was an interesting time for women's running. It was the
Gordon Bakoulis: real pioneers. People call me a pioneer sometimes, but I
Gordon Bakoulis: feel like I just ran through the doors that the
Gordon Bakoulis: real pioneers of women's running opened for me. People like
Gordon Bakoulis: Kathrine Switzer, Nina Kuscsik, Grete Waitz, Joan Benoit Samuelson. They
Gordon Bakoulis: had to fight blatant discrimination, misunderstanding, sexism, and just being told, "
Gordon Bakoulis: No, you can't do this." And I never had to
Gordon Bakoulis: overcome those obstacles. The doors were open, and I simply
Gordon Bakoulis: ran through them. So it was great. And I didn't
Gordon Bakoulis: realize until many years later that there of course were
Gordon Bakoulis: a lot of inequities at the time. Women couldn't run
Gordon Bakoulis: the Olympic marathon. They couldn't even run the 10, 000 when
Gordon Bakoulis: those doors had just been opened, and there were a
Gordon Bakoulis: lot of people who felt like women still had to
Gordon Bakoulis: prove themselves as runners.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah.
Gordon Bakoulis: But for me, it felt great. The doors were open,
Gordon Bakoulis: felt like we were an army rather than just a
Gordon Bakoulis: little sliver, and I loved it. I loved it right
Gordon Bakoulis: from the start.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Tell me about your running. So did you start out running the mile?
Gordon Bakoulis: Mm- hmm.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Was that the first event you really focused on?
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Rob Simmelkjaer: That's typical for high school athletes. When did you realize, "
Rob Simmelkjaer: Wow, I'm pretty good at this"? Because my understanding is
Rob Simmelkjaer: you made it all the way to the States that
Rob Simmelkjaer: first year.
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah. Yeah, I did pretty quickly. I ran with my
Gordon Bakoulis: friend, a friend in the neighborhood who had been on
Gordon Bakoulis: the track team and didn't want to do winter track.
Gordon Bakoulis: She wanted to just stay in shape for spring track.
Gordon Bakoulis: So she coaxed me to get up early and run
Gordon Bakoulis: around the neighborhood a few mornings a week, real slow,
Gordon Bakoulis: real easy, conversational, and I loved that. And then the
Gordon Bakoulis: following spring when she went out for spring track, I
Gordon Bakoulis: was right there with her. I didn't want to play
Gordon Bakoulis: lacrosse anymore and spend more time warming the bench than
Gordon Bakoulis: actually participating. So I went out for spring track and
Gordon Bakoulis: pretty quickly. I wasn't a sprinter at all, and I
Gordon Bakoulis: knew that. But I ran the 800, the mile, and the
Gordon Bakoulis: two mile because I couldn't run fast, but I could
Gordon Bakoulis: just run and run and run. And I did make
Gordon Bakoulis: it all the way to the state meet and realized, "
Gordon Bakoulis: Oh wow, here's a sport that I'm good at. Too
Gordon Bakoulis: bad I didn't discover this earlier." But I'm always really
Gordon Bakoulis: grateful that I had that gentle introduction to running those
Gordon Bakoulis: few months, just enjoying the camaraderie, enjoying being up early,
Gordon Bakoulis: exploring the neighborhood, chatting with my friend. We formed a
Gordon Bakoulis: really strong bond where the two of us are still
Gordon Bakoulis: great friends to this day. So I had that nice
Gordon Bakoulis: gentle introduction and then also the realization, " Oh, this is
Gordon Bakoulis: great. This is awesome. This is something I could be
Gordon Bakoulis: good at."
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. And where did it go from there? I know
Rob Simmelkjaer: you got clocked in a couple different places, people seeing
Rob Simmelkjaer: you running fast times in the Mini 10K and some
Rob Simmelkjaer: other events. When did you get, quote, unquote, discovered, if
Rob Simmelkjaer: you will, as someone who could really run at a
Rob Simmelkjaer: high level?
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah, it was funny. I went to University of Virginia
Gordon Bakoulis: where there was a great running program. But because I
Gordon Bakoulis: had just started my senior year of high school, I
Gordon Bakoulis: didn't get recruited or anything. And I didn't really even
Gordon Bakoulis: consider running there when I made friends with some of
Gordon Bakoulis: the women on the team, and I saw what they
Gordon Bakoulis: were doing running 100 miles a week. And I was just like, "No, no, no,
Gordon Bakoulis: no. That's not what I want to do in college
Gordon Bakoulis: anyway." So again, I was sort of adjacent to that,
Gordon Bakoulis: but not involved in that program. So through college, I
Gordon Bakoulis: just ran the way any recreational runner would. And I
Gordon Bakoulis: also did a lot of other sports to just stay
Gordon Bakoulis: fit and sane and take study breaks and stuff like
Gordon Bakoulis: that. And then I moved to the New York area
Gordon Bakoulis: when I graduated. I'd moved back to this area. I'm
Gordon Bakoulis: from New Jersey, but moved into the city in 1983.
Gordon Bakoulis: And in 1984, I wanted to run a marathon. So
Gordon Bakoulis: what better marathon than New York, of course? And as
Gordon Bakoulis: you were alluding to earlier, it was a lot easier
Gordon Bakoulis: to get into the marathon in those days. By that
Gordon Bakoulis: point we had started with the lottery, but the odds
Gordon Bakoulis: were much, much, much better. So I applied and got
Gordon Bakoulis: in, and ran the marathon for fun. I ran three
Gordon Bakoulis: hours and 40 minutes, which was still good, but definitely not
Gordon Bakoulis: at all at the top competitive level, and loved it.
Gordon Bakoulis: I mean, all the things that we say about the
Gordon Bakoulis: New York City Marathon just absolutely worked their magic on
Gordon Bakoulis: me. It was just a stunning way to see the
Gordon Bakoulis: city. I'd been living in New York for less than
Gordon Bakoulis: a year. I don't think I'd ever even been to
Gordon Bakoulis: Queens, certainly never run over the Verrazzano- Narrows Bridge or
Gordon Bakoulis: any of those bridges. And just it was amazing. It
Gordon Bakoulis: was like, " Wow, this is phenomenal." It was hard. I
Gordon Bakoulis: was definitely undertrained and didn't know all that really any
Gordon Bakoulis: of us know today about fueling and hydration and all
Gordon Bakoulis: those things, but it was great. It was a really
Gordon Bakoulis: great experience. Still didn't think about trying to run fast
Gordon Bakoulis: again, even though in the back of my mind it
Gordon Bakoulis: was like, " Yeah yeah yeah, I was a state qualifying
Gordon Bakoulis: runner back in high school." But the following spring, I
Gordon Bakoulis: just started to test myself. I'd go run around the
Gordon Bakoulis: Reservoir in Central Park to see if I could run
Gordon Bakoulis: faster today than I had run yesterday or last week
Gordon Bakoulis: or whatever. And I guess I got pretty fast because
Gordon Bakoulis: when the Mini 10K rolled around, the Women's Mini 10K
Gordon Bakoulis: in June, I ran that. I ran sub 40 minutes, 38-
Gordon Bakoulis: something, and met up with a friend afterwards who had
Gordon Bakoulis: gone to UVA and had run for the team there.
Gordon Bakoulis: And she said, " Yeah, yeah, I run for this team,
Gordon Bakoulis: Atalanta. It's a women's running team. You should come out
Gordon Bakoulis: to a workout." So I did. And again, right away,
Gordon Bakoulis: found success. I was leading the workouts and I started
Gordon Bakoulis: running, cut my time in the 10K really quickly. And
Gordon Bakoulis: that was my reintroduction to competitive running. And it was
Gordon Bakoulis: great. Again, just success and a lot of learning. We
Gordon Bakoulis: had a wonderful coach, Bob Glover, the legendary Bob Glover-
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yes.
Gordon Bakoulis: ... who ran the New York Road Runners, what was the
Gordon Bakoulis: precursor, the predecessor of our group training program for years.
Gordon Bakoulis: He had started it in the '70s, and he continued in
Gordon Bakoulis: that role until 2015. He's a super legend, and he
Gordon Bakoulis: was a great coach and a real, real believer in women's
Gordon Bakoulis: running, equality for women. So I just stuck with that
Gordon Bakoulis: and had some ups and downs, injuries as we all
Gordon Bakoulis: do and that sort of thing. But just his belief
Gordon Bakoulis: in women's running and his dedication to women's running and
Gordon Bakoulis: then opening my eyes. I had no idea how one
Gordon Bakoulis: got on an Olympic team or really what adult women's post-
Gordon Bakoulis: collegiate running was all about. So that was my introduction.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. And then it went from that 1984 marathon at 3:
Rob Simmelkjaer: 40 to cut to a few years later at Grandma's
Rob Simmelkjaer: and quite a bit of improvement for you. So nearly
Rob Simmelkjaer: an hour faster-
Gordon Bakoulis: Exactly.
Rob Simmelkjaer: ... in that marathon that qualified you for the Olympic
Rob Simmelkjaer: trials. Take us to the moment you crossed that finish
Rob Simmelkjaer: line in 1987, understanding what you'd done. I assume you knew
Rob Simmelkjaer: the time. Did you know the time-
Gordon Bakoulis: I did.
Rob Simmelkjaer: ... you had to hit to qualify for the Olympics trial?
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah, the standard, I don't know if this is accurate, but
Gordon Bakoulis: I think it was like 2: 51. The standards were a
Gordon Bakoulis: little more lenient back then. I mean, it post pre-supershoes-
Rob Simmelkjaer: Of course.
Gordon Bakoulis: ... whenever I tell people my PRs, it's always, " Oh,
Gordon Bakoulis: and I did it all without supershoes, by the way." Yeah, I think 2:
Gordon Bakoulis: 51 is what it was. And again, I just didn't
Gordon Bakoulis: know anything about this at all. I give Bob Glover
Gordon Bakoulis: all the credit in the world, plus the teammates that
Gordon Bakoulis: I had who had had experience, who had run in
Gordon Bakoulis: the '84 trials. And I, one, didn't know how it
Gordon Bakoulis: all worked, how you qualified for the Olympics and that
Gordon Bakoulis: sort of thing. And two, really had a limited understanding
Gordon Bakoulis: of how new this all was for women. As I'm
Gordon Bakoulis: sure you know, 1984 was the first year that a
Gordon Bakoulis: women's Olympic marathon happened, and that was Los Angeles, Joan
Gordon Bakoulis: Benoit Samuelson, American of course won the gold medal. And
Gordon Bakoulis: I just didn't know that that at all happened just
Gordon Bakoulis: a couple of years before I got into the sport.
Gordon Bakoulis: And so Bob had to educate me, Bob and my teammates. "
Gordon Bakoulis: Okay, this is how it works. You go to a
Gordon Bakoulis: race that's sanctioned, you run the time, and then you
Gordon Bakoulis: can go run the Olympic trials. And then at the
Gordon Bakoulis: trials the top three across the line, as long as
Gordon Bakoulis: they've hit the Olympic standard, go to the Olympics." It's
Gordon Bakoulis: like, "Oh, okay, that sounds cool." So yes, Grandma's Marathon in
Gordon Bakoulis: 1987, I had tried to qualify at New York in
Gordon Bakoulis: 1986. But I developed an injury during training with plantar
Gordon Bakoulis: fasciitis and really standing on the starting line, the very (inaudible)
Gordon Bakoulis: it was like, " This isn't going to happen. My heel
Gordon Bakoulis: hurts a lot right now, and I'm not even running
Gordon Bakoulis: yet."
Rob Simmelkjaer: That's (inaudible) Yeah.
Gordon Bakoulis: So that's one of the only two marathons in my career that I
Gordon Bakoulis: dropped out of, and I was devastated. But again, Bob and
Gordon Bakoulis: my teammates just said, " Oh, you got plenty of time.
Gordon Bakoulis: Injuries heal." That was my first major injury, and I
Gordon Bakoulis: was like, " Oh, I'll never run again," as we all
Gordon Bakoulis: do. But yeah, I healed up fine. And then the
Gordon Bakoulis: following spring, 1987, and I had run half- marathons in close
Gordon Bakoulis: to 1: 20. So I knew that the formula, double it
Gordon Bakoulis: and add 10 minutes, I should have a little bit
Gordon Bakoulis: of a breathing room there. But Grandma's, I don't know
Gordon Bakoulis: if you've ever run that marathon. It just happened last weekend.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Gordon Bakoulis: It's a wonderful, wonderful race out in Duluth, Minnesota along
Gordon Bakoulis: the shores of Lake Superior, flat. It can be very
Gordon Bakoulis: fast depending on the weather. But if you have any
Gordon Bakoulis: kind of a tailwind, it's like Boston. If you have
Gordon Bakoulis: a tailwind, it's a tailwind the whole way. We had
Gordon Bakoulis: a tailwind that year, and it was great. And I
Gordon Bakoulis: just remember Bob, several of us ran. So Bob came
Gordon Bakoulis: out to watch and cheer, and he was on the
Gordon Bakoulis: course at about mile 24. And he just said, not
Gordon Bakoulis: even like that loudly, very quietly, " You've got this," as
Gordon Bakoulis: I went by. And it was just like the best
Gordon Bakoulis: feeling in the world, " Yeah, I'm going to qualify for
Gordon Bakoulis: the Olympic trials."
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. Yeah.
Gordon Bakoulis: I'm sure I ran just over 2: 46, 2:46.0 something, gave
Gordon Bakoulis: me a nice little buffer there. So yeah, that was
Gordon Bakoulis: that. I was off to the Olympic trials, which were
Gordon Bakoulis: in 1988 in Pittsburgh and improved a lot there as
Gordon Bakoulis: well. Although never in that race did I entertain thoughts of, "
Gordon Bakoulis: Oh, I could make the Olympic team." Because the winners,
Gordon Bakoulis: the top women entered in that race were significantly at
Gordon Bakoulis: a higher level than I was.
Rob Simmelkjaer: (inaudible)
Gordon Bakoulis: But it felt like my Olympics just going to something
Gordon Bakoulis: that has the word Olympic in it was like, " Oh, that's good enough for me."
Rob Simmelkjaer: I think that's exactly right. For anybody who, I mean a lot
Rob Simmelkjaer: of women and men on the men's side get there,
Rob Simmelkjaer: and that's their big day.
Gordon Bakoulis: I agree.
Rob Simmelkjaer: That's their big moment. Only a few are going to
Rob Simmelkjaer: make the actual Olympics, but dozens get to have that
Rob Simmelkjaer: day, which is one of the things I love about
Rob Simmelkjaer: that format. What is most remarkable to me about you?
Rob Simmelkjaer: I mean, there's a lot of remarkable things about you,
Rob Simmelkjaer: but in terms of your running career, the longevity and
Rob Simmelkjaer: the consistency that you were able to have over such
Rob Simmelkjaer: a long period of time. Not one, not two, not
Rob Simmelkjaer: three, not four, five Olympic trials, five cycles of that,
Rob Simmelkjaer: you were able to come back again and again and
Rob Simmelkjaer: again and meet that standard and get to that day.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And so I have two questions for you. How did you
Rob Simmelkjaer: do that? What was the secret to your longevity? And
Rob Simmelkjaer: then, what was the year that you felt you maybe
Rob Simmelkjaer: had a chance to actually make it? What was your
Rob Simmelkjaer: closest or the year you felt you actually maybe could
Rob Simmelkjaer: pull it off in terms of getting to the Olympics?
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah. Yeah, no, those are great questions. And I think
Gordon Bakoulis: they speak to just the system that we have in
Gordon Bakoulis: this country for choosing our Olympic teams. I think the
Gordon Bakoulis: trial system, you could debate it all day because there's
Gordon Bakoulis: pros and cons. But I think the pro, the biggest
Gordon Bakoulis: selling point for a trial system is that it does
Gordon Bakoulis: create this aspirational environment where you really aspire to even
Gordon Bakoulis: make it to the trials. Because you're right, it's not
Gordon Bakoulis: easy. And then you just have to show up on
Gordon Bakoulis: the day. And so that atmosphere on the start line
Gordon Bakoulis: of the trials when you know in your heart at hearts, "
Gordon Bakoulis: She's here, she's here, she's here, I'm probably not going
Gordon Bakoulis: to make the team." But you could, in theory.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah, that's right. You could have a good day. Other people have not such
Rob Simmelkjaer: a good day.
Gordon Bakoulis: Exactly.
Rob Simmelkjaer: There you go.
Gordon Bakoulis: Until the race is actually run, you don't know how
Gordon Bakoulis: it's going to come out. So that drew me in
Gordon Bakoulis: the first time. I'd never experienced anything like that. And
Gordon Bakoulis: fortunately, I had a really good day, which probably helped.
Gordon Bakoulis: I came in 17th in 1988 with the 2: 37,
Gordon Bakoulis: and it was just intoxicating. The atmosphere, just the way
Gordon Bakoulis: the trials athletes are treated, at all the trials that
Gordon Bakoulis: I ran, the host committee and all the officials, volunteers
Gordon Bakoulis: and everything, you just felt so, so, so special. So
Gordon Bakoulis: that was a motivation to keep trying to qualify every
Gordon Bakoulis: four years. In terms of the longevity, I do think
Gordon Bakoulis: that I was lucky. I've been lucky over the years.
Gordon Bakoulis: But also just again, I give Bob Glover just so
Gordon Bakoulis: much credit for how he coached, how he was very
Gordon Bakoulis: developmental, how he never got rattled, never let me get
Gordon Bakoulis: rattled through injuries, through setbacks. It's just like, " This is
Gordon Bakoulis: a long- term thing that you're doing," and connecting me
Gordon Bakoulis: to healer people, medical people and that injuries come and
Gordon Bakoulis: go, that you have good patches and bad patches in
Gordon Bakoulis: your career and you overcome them. You figure out ways
Gordon Bakoulis: to deal with setbacks and to keep going and just
Gordon Bakoulis: inspiring that love of the sport. I think any coach
Gordon Bakoulis: that can do that, that's more valuable than, " Hey, I'm
Gordon Bakoulis: going to write you the greatest training program the world
Gordon Bakoulis: has ever seen."
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah.
Gordon Bakoulis: And the team environment as well. Atalanta was a really,
Gordon Bakoulis: really wonderful program, a really great team of women. And
Gordon Bakoulis: I just by accident ended up on an all- women's
Gordon Bakoulis: team, but I do speak very, very highly of women's-
Gordon Bakoulis: only running teams. Because I just think that in atmosphere, especially
Gordon Bakoulis: in those days when again, there weren't as many women
Gordon Bakoulis: competing. There weren't environments that catered specifically to women as
Gordon Bakoulis: competitive athletes, and I just happened to be in a
Gordon Bakoulis: really, really good one. And the longevity, I think, also
Gordon Bakoulis: had to do with just having a balanced lifestyle. I
Gordon Bakoulis: never was completely a professional elite runner where that was
Gordon Bakoulis: the only thing I did. I was either working full-
Gordon Bakoulis: time or having a lot of freelance. I've always been
Gordon Bakoulis: a writer and editor as my career, and always having
Gordon Bakoulis: a lot of freelance projects that kept me balanced so
Gordon Bakoulis: I wasn't just sitting around between workouts, getting nervous about
Gordon Bakoulis: how I was going to do 10 by 800 in 2:
Gordon Bakoulis: 20 or whatever was on the docket for the day.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. Yeah.
Gordon Bakoulis: So I think those things made a big difference. But
Gordon Bakoulis: yeah, it wasn't always easy. I think the hardest trial
Gordon Bakoulis: for me was in 2000, which was just five months
Gordon Bakoulis: after we had our second kid, my son Sam. I
Gordon Bakoulis: had him in September of '99, and then the trials
Gordon Bakoulis: were in February of 2000.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Wow.
Gordon Bakoulis: So I tempered my expectations as I didn't expect to
Gordon Bakoulis: do a really stellar time. Not only because it's hard
Gordon Bakoulis: to come back from childbirth, it really, really is. Every
Gordon Bakoulis: woman is different, and every pregnancy is different. I had a pretty easy
Gordon Bakoulis: comeback from our first son, Joe, who was born in
Gordon Bakoulis: 1997, but you never know. I was fortunate to have
Gordon Bakoulis: a relatively easy comeback after we had Sam as well.
Gordon Bakoulis: But that was two kids age two and under, so there
Gordon Bakoulis: was also the time factor. I remember I had-
Rob Simmelkjaer: Of course. The sleep factor.
Gordon Bakoulis: ... sort of set up a rule, " All right, I'm
Gordon Bakoulis: only going to run if I can get in at
Gordon Bakoulis: least 30 minutes," because what's the point really of going
Gordon Bakoulis: out and running for less than 30 minutes? That went
Gordon Bakoulis: out the window almost immediately. I had a lot of 27-
Gordon Bakoulis: minute runs. " Oh, here's a 19- minute run." It's just like
Gordon Bakoulis: whatever you could fit in. '92 was the year that
Gordon Bakoulis: I came closest to making the team. I came in eighth-
Rob Simmelkjaer: Oh, wow.
Gordon Bakoulis: ... and as you know, top three make the team. So I was with the lead pack-
Rob Simmelkjaer: Wow.
Gordon Bakoulis: ... for a significant chunk of the race and then
Gordon Bakoulis: it was-
Rob Simmelkjaer: Incredible.
Gordon Bakoulis: ... that classic race of attrition the last five miles.
Rob Simmelkjaer: That would've been Barcelona. (inaudible) yeah.
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah, that would've been Barcelona games. The trials that year were
Gordon Bakoulis: in Houston.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. Yeah.
Gordon Bakoulis: It was great day.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Incredible.
Gordon Bakoulis: But not good enough.
Rob Simmelkjaer: That's great history. Gordon, you talked so much about the
Rob Simmelkjaer: impact that a great coach had on you. When did
Rob Simmelkjaer: you first decide you also wanted to coach?
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah. Yeah, no, that was in the '90s. I stayed with Bob
Gordon Bakoulis: Glover and the Atalanta team through the early '90s. And
Gordon Bakoulis: then I had been doing some training stints out in
Gordon Bakoulis: Boulder, Colorado where one of my sisters was living. And
Gordon Bakoulis: they had a program back in the day called, I
Gordon Bakoulis: think it was called the BOLDERBoulder High Altitude Training Program.
Gordon Bakoulis: So I had done that a couple of times and
Gordon Bakoulis: connected there with a coach named Benji Durden. Benji had
Gordon Bakoulis: been an Olympian. He made the team in 1980, and
Gordon Bakoulis: that was of course the year of the boycott. So
Gordon Bakoulis: he didn't actually compete in the Olympic marathon, but he
Gordon Bakoulis: had made the team. We connected several times over the
Gordon Bakoulis: years. And then on one of the stints I decided
Gordon Bakoulis: to make the break from working with Atalanta and work
Gordon Bakoulis: remotely with Benji. I forget what your question was, actually. Sorry.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Just when you first decided you wanted to be a
Rob Simmelkjaer: coach yourself-
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah. Yes, yes, yes.
Rob Simmelkjaer: ... and start coaching over other runners. Yeah.
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah. And as much success as I'd had with Bob,
Gordon Bakoulis: I was like, " Okay, there's other ways of coaching." Almost
Gordon Bakoulis: all of what I absorbed from Bob was working, but
Gordon Bakoulis: there were a few things that weren't working. And I
Gordon Bakoulis: just didn't really realize there were different ways of coaching. There were
Gordon Bakoulis: different coaching styles, different coaching philosophies. So that planted the
Gordon Bakoulis: seed, like, " Well, maybe this is something I can do
Gordon Bakoulis: someday." And by the mid- '90s, I became the founder
Gordon Bakoulis: of a team called Moving Comfort New York. Moving Comfort
Gordon Bakoulis: was a women's clothing company back in the day that
Gordon Bakoulis: had been founded by two women in the '70s when
Gordon Bakoulis: there was nothing, absolutely nothing for women to run in.
Gordon Bakoulis: Literally jockstraps made into running bras because they didn't exist
Gordon Bakoulis: in running. Yeah, you don't want to know. I'll just
Gordon Bakoulis: leave it at that. But the two women, I'm blanking
Gordon Bakoulis: on their names right now, founded Moving Comfort, and they
Gordon Bakoulis: sponsored a team that I ran with for years. It was just
Gordon Bakoulis: called Moving Comfort Racing Team. And then through me and
Gordon Bakoulis: the liaison to that, a man named Jeff Darman, who's
Gordon Bakoulis: been a long time involved with running in various capacities,
Gordon Bakoulis: we founded a New York chapter of that called Moving
Gordon Bakoulis: Comfort New York. I became the coach of that, and
Gordon Bakoulis: did that for years and years. Our names changed over
Gordon Bakoulis: the years because Moving Comfort was eventually bought by Russell
Gordon Bakoulis: Athletic. So they weren't sponsoring women's running teams anymore. We
Gordon Bakoulis: had so many different names. Athena was our name for
Gordon Bakoulis: a while and Running Divas, and then we disbanded in
Gordon Bakoulis: 2012, not due to anything negative. It was just everyone
Gordon Bakoulis: was off having babies and getting involved in other things.
Gordon Bakoulis: So that team no longer exists. But I coached it
Gordon Bakoulis: for 20 years. And then just as that was winding
Gordon Bakoulis: down, I knew Bob Glover was going to be retiring
Gordon Bakoulis: from his collaboration with New York Road Runners as head
Gordon Bakoulis: of the running program. So I started coaching with group
Gordon Bakoulis: training in 2016, right at the end of 2015. So been doing
Gordon Bakoulis: that ever since.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And I've had the opportunity to know you as a
Rob Simmelkjaer: coach. I've done some group training sessions myself. I'm wondering
Rob Simmelkjaer: through that process, Gordon, you talked about different ways of
Rob Simmelkjaer: coaching, different styles of coaching. How did your style of
Rob Simmelkjaer: coaching evolve? How do you think you grew as a
Rob Simmelkjaer: coach, and how would you describe your style of coaching now?
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah, that's a great question because it really has evolved. I
Gordon Bakoulis: guess the short answer is just I've become more confident
Gordon Bakoulis: in my role as a coach and just more realizing
Gordon Bakoulis: that the best thing a coach can do is just
Gordon Bakoulis: be confident in their athlete. I used to just get
Gordon Bakoulis: so wrapped up in, " What if I don't write the
Gordon Bakoulis: perfect ..." Like I was saying before, writing the perfect training
Gordon Bakoulis: program is kind of the easy part. And it's the
Gordon Bakoulis: part, honestly, that matters the least. As long as you're
Gordon Bakoulis: following basic rules of hard days followed by easy days,
Gordon Bakoulis: allowing for recovery, long runs that build gradually, et cetera,
Gordon Bakoulis: et cetera, a little bit of tempo so you get
Gordon Bakoulis: used to sustaining a high level but not too high
Gordon Bakoulis: a level, you're pretty good. And a lot of coaches
Gordon Bakoulis: are good at that. And what it took me a
Gordon Bakoulis: longer time to develop was just the confidence internally in
Gordon Bakoulis: what I was doing to convey confidence and imbue my
Gordon Bakoulis: athletes with the confidence they needed to succeed. And quite
Gordon Bakoulis: honestly, some of my athletes taught me more about how
Gordon Bakoulis: to do that than I feel like I taught them.
Gordon Bakoulis: So it was just a gradual process over the years
Gordon Bakoulis: of just being there, creating ... Mostly what I do now
Gordon Bakoulis: is, as you know, coach with group training. So it's coaching
Gordon Bakoulis: groups of athletes rather than one- on- one, although I've
Gordon Bakoulis: done a lot of one- on- one over the years.
Gordon Bakoulis: Just creating an atmosphere that's welcoming, inclusive, just meets people
Gordon Bakoulis: where they are, non- judgmental, setting high standards like, " Okay,
Gordon Bakoulis: this is what we're going to do today. It's not
Gordon Bakoulis: going to be easy, but here's how we're going to
Gordon Bakoulis: do it." But wherever people are with their lives, they
Gordon Bakoulis: come, do the workout, and that's all you can ask
Gordon Bakoulis: of them is to just give it their best shot.
Gordon Bakoulis: And I try to just convey that positivity and that
Gordon Bakoulis: belief and that lack of judgment every single workout. It's always
Gordon Bakoulis: interesting at the beginning of a group training session. There's
Gordon Bakoulis: always new people who may have never done a workout
Gordon Bakoulis: at all, or never done one since they had a
Gordon Bakoulis: mean coach back in high school or something 30 years
Gordon Bakoulis: ago. And they had this look in their eye, kind of wide-
Gordon Bakoulis: eyed. And then after the workout, they're just like, " Okay,
Gordon Bakoulis: yeah, this is fine. I can do this. This is hard.
Gordon Bakoulis: It's not going to be something that I can just coast
Gordon Bakoulis: through every week or twice a week or whatever, but
Gordon Bakoulis: I can do this. And I feel that the people here
Gordon Bakoulis: believe in me, want me to be here, welcome me,
Gordon Bakoulis: include me, see me." And that just means everything, in
Gordon Bakoulis: running and in life.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. And when I started working here three- and- a-
Rob Simmelkjaer: half years ago and I started coming to those group trainings.
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah, I remember that well.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I hadn't been in a group running situation like an
Rob Simmelkjaer: organized coached workout since I had run cross country in
Rob Simmelkjaer: high school. So it had been a really long time
Rob Simmelkjaer: of just running on my own. I'd run a couple
Rob Simmelkjaer: of marathons, but mostly training on my own through a
Rob Simmelkjaer: static training plan that I would get in a magazine
Rob Simmelkjaer: or something like that. And I just remember like, " Wow,"
Rob Simmelkjaer: what I felt I was getting from it, the improvement
Rob Simmelkjaer: that I felt and just the accountability of having somewhere to
Rob Simmelkjaer: be and a workout that was planned, it really was game
Rob Simmelkjaer: changing.
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Talk to the people out there who are like I
Rob Simmelkjaer: was. And that's a lot of runners who just run on
Rob Simmelkjaer: their own. That's one of the beauties of running is that
Rob Simmelkjaer: you can do that. But the benefits that you can
Rob Simmelkjaer: get from showing up at something like a group training,
Rob Simmelkjaer: whether it's with us or with a club or whatever
Rob Simmelkjaer: it might be, why? Why put yourself through that if
Rob Simmelkjaer: you're a runner and you aspire to get better?
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah. You're right, Rob. You are very typical in that
Gordon Bakoulis: sense that you have an athletic background, but it's been
Gordon Bakoulis: years. And a lot of people show up in exactly
Gordon Bakoulis: that situation. And I'll add, I think women more than
Gordon Bakoulis: men are likely to show up having had a negative
Gordon Bakoulis: experience with that earlier on. Maybe a situation that wasn't
Gordon Bakoulis: intended to be negative, no one was deliberately mean to
Gordon Bakoulis: them, just where they felt maybe marginalized or second to
Gordon Bakoulis: the men's team or the men's program or whatever. And
Gordon Bakoulis: just to have them show up and be treated with
Gordon Bakoulis: complete equality, with complete, just acceptance, inclusion I think really
Gordon Bakoulis: means everything. And yeah, for those people, which is the
Gordon Bakoulis: majority of new people to group training, we just want
Gordon Bakoulis: them to have a really positive experience. We definitely want
Gordon Bakoulis: to share our knowledge and wisdom and our own experience. And
Gordon Bakoulis: we are very well- trained. Most of us have become
Gordon Bakoulis: certified through USATF or Road Runners Club of America, RRCA.
Gordon Bakoulis: So we know what we're doing. We're not just willy-
Gordon Bakoulis: nilly making up these programs and workouts that we don't
Gordon Bakoulis: know whether they're going to work or not. We know
Gordon Bakoulis: they work. They're very tested. But it's just that making
Gordon Bakoulis: it a positive experience, accepting them, seeing them, embracing them,
Gordon Bakoulis: and then creating a dynamic. By doing all those things,
Gordon Bakoulis: creating a dynamic within the workouts where they're lifting each
Gordon Bakoulis: other up. A lot of runners are very social. As
Gordon Bakoulis: you know, the myth of the loneliness of the long
Gordon Bakoulis: distance runner has been shown many times to be a
Gordon Bakoulis: myth. We're incredibly social, and we foster that. There are times
Gordon Bakoulis: during the workouts where people can hang out and talk
Gordon Bakoulis: with each other. Or even during the workouts they can
Gordon Bakoulis: interact, or even if they're not saying anything, you're doing
Gordon Bakoulis: it together. You have that accountability and that social connection
Gordon Bakoulis: that I think is so important. We just celebrated 10
Gordon Bakoulis: years of New York Road Runners group training this year.
Gordon Bakoulis: We've heard from a lot of people over the years,
Gordon Bakoulis: and we highlighted a few people in a blog post
Gordon Bakoulis: that we did recently. They say they keep coming back
Gordon Bakoulis: for the community. They know what to do. They know how
Gordon Bakoulis: to go out and do a tempo run if they had
Gordon Bakoulis: to on their own or whatever, but they keep coming
Gordon Bakoulis: back for the community. So that's why we're here.
Rob Simmelkjaer: All right, Gordon. Yeah. So at the top of the interview, I
Rob Simmelkjaer: teased five different numbers.
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah.
Rob Simmelkjaer: So I'm going to go through each one of these, Gordon.
Gordon Bakoulis: Okay.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And you tell me what this number represents in your career
Rob Simmelkjaer: as a runner and with New York Road Runner.
Gordon Bakoulis: Oh, gosh. This is a spot quiz.
Rob Simmelkjaer: The first number. That's right. If you don't get it, I've got the answers.
Gordon Bakoulis: Okay.
Rob Simmelkjaer: The first number is 468.
Gordon Bakoulis: Oh my gosh. Okay. I actually know what this is. That is the number of New York Road Runners races
Gordon Bakoulis: that I've done in like 40 years or whatever it's been. 30 years.
Rob Simmelkjaer: That is correct. That is correct. That is exactly right.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Over 40 years, you've run 468 races, from the L'eggs
Rob Simmelkjaer: Mini in May of 1986 to the Citizens Queens 10K.
Gordon Bakoulis: That's bananas.
Rob Simmelkjaer: This past Saturday was number 468. Still going strong. I
Rob Simmelkjaer: can't wait for 500, Gordon. Let's go. We're going to
Rob Simmelkjaer: have to have a big day.
Gordon Bakoulis: Let me interject here. I want to give my dear husband a plug. Alan
Gordon Bakoulis: Ruben has done 505.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Wow ...
Gordon Bakoulis: So not that we're competitive with each other. He's winning
Gordon Bakoulis: that particular little marriage rivalry.
Rob Simmelkjaer: He's gotcha by a few. All right. Well, we got
Rob Simmelkjaer: to make sure we're all there for number 500 when
Rob Simmelkjaer: you cross that finish line.
Gordon Bakoulis: Okay.
Rob Simmelkjaer: That's going to be a big deal. All right. How
Rob Simmelkjaer: about 33?
Gordon Bakoulis: I don't know what that is. I'm sorry.
Rob Simmelkjaer: That is the number of times, Gordon, that you have
Rob Simmelkjaer: run the Mini 10K.
Gordon Bakoulis: Oh, of course. Of course. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Rob Simmelkjaer: First-
Gordon Bakoulis: Sorry. Yep. You're right.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yes. That's okay. No, we got you. The first was
Rob Simmelkjaer: 1986, and the latest was just a few weeks ago.
Rob Simmelkjaer: By the way, just a few weeks ago, Gordon Bakoulis
Rob Simmelkjaer: still won her age group.
Gordon Bakoulis: I did.
Rob Simmelkjaer: That's right. Still killing it. Unbelievable.
Gordon Bakoulis: On that beastly hot day somehow when I wanted to stop
Gordon Bakoulis: so many times.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Incredible. Incredible.
Gordon Bakoulis: And won my age group. Thank you.
Rob Simmelkjaer: You got just adding some more hardware to that trophy case
Rob Simmelkjaer: at home.
Gordon Bakoulis: Indeed.
Rob Simmelkjaer: How about 239? I'll give you a hint. This is in
Rob Simmelkjaer: that age group category, 239.
Gordon Bakoulis: So have I won my age group 239 times? That's crazy.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Correct. That is right.
Gordon Bakoulis: How did you find that out?
Rob Simmelkjaer: (inaudible)
Gordon Bakoulis: You must have people in the scoring team.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And Kathryn Jones, I think she knows people. And they
Rob Simmelkjaer: came up with these numbers, I think.
Gordon Bakoulis: Oh, that's so funny.
Rob Simmelkjaer: But our great producer, Kathryn, came up with some of these.
Gordon Bakoulis: I didn't know that one. The 33, I should have gotten that one, but okay. 239.
Rob Simmelkjaer: That's okay. That's incredible. Okay. How about this one? 370.
Gordon Bakoulis: I don't know that one either. Sorry, Rob. I'm failing. I've already
Gordon Bakoulis: failed this test.
Rob Simmelkjaer: In the ballpark. This was a hard one. That's the number of
Rob Simmelkjaer: times that you finished on the age group podium.
Gordon Bakoulis: Oh, that's cool.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Nearly four out of every five times you've raced with
Rob Simmelkjaer: Road Runners, you finished on the podium in your age group.
Gordon Bakoulis: Wow. In my age group. Wow. (inaudible)
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah.
Gordon Bakoulis: Okay. Yes. I like this. I like this. I'm going to hire you.
Gordon Bakoulis: You can write some press releases, right?
Rob Simmelkjaer: Hire Kathryn. I'm not the one.
Gordon Bakoulis: Thank you, Kathryn.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Thank you, Kathryn, for the numbers. How about this number? 11403.
Gordon Bakoulis: Oh, okay. That's a half- marathon time. I think it's
Gordon Bakoulis: my fastest half- marathon in Central Park, and it was
Gordon Bakoulis: like a Central Park record. I don't know. I don't know.
Rob Simmelkjaer: (inaudible) you were.
Gordon Bakoulis: I need some help. I know it's a half- marathon time.
Gordon Bakoulis: I get partial credit.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yep. You definitely do. It is your Fred Lebow half-
Rob Simmelkjaer: marathon event record time.
Gordon Bakoulis: Right. That's it.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Which has stood since 1992.
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah. Yeah. And that race used to be in the summer,
Gordon Bakoulis: so that was run on a hot day. So I
Gordon Bakoulis: am really proud of that one. That was another one
Gordon Bakoulis: where I wanted to drop out many times. I said, "
Gordon Bakoulis: Oh, keep going, keep going, keep going." I remember that.
Rob Simmelkjaer: That's incredible, by the way.
Gordon Bakoulis: Thank you, Kathryn.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I did not know that used to be in the summer.
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah.
Rob Simmelkjaer: That must have been absolutely brutal to run that course
Rob Simmelkjaer: in the summertime.
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah. It was kind of crazy.
Rob Simmelkjaer: All right. And last but not least, 3044. 1.
Gordon Bakoulis: That's probably, I'm going to guess, the number of miles
Gordon Bakoulis: that I've run in New York (inaudible)
Rob Simmelkjaer: You got it. You got it. That's exactly right. That's the total number
Rob Simmelkjaer: of miles you have raced-
Gordon Bakoulis: Okay. All right.
Rob Simmelkjaer: ... not trained, raced in New York Road Runners events.
Gordon Bakoulis: Right.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Which by the way, is roughly the distance from New
Rob Simmelkjaer: York City to Shannon, Ireland. So you've run across the
Rob Simmelkjaer: Atlantic Ocean.
Gordon Bakoulis: Well, it'll go up this weekend.
Rob Simmelkjaer: (inaudible)
Gordon Bakoulis: I'm going to run the Pride Run on Saturday, and I don't
Gordon Bakoulis: know if I'll win my age group. I'll try, I
Gordon Bakoulis: always try. I still love winning my age group, not
Gordon Bakoulis: because I like beating my friends in the 65 to 69. I
Gordon Bakoulis: just like the competitiveness and the ... Yeah, we encourage each
Gordon Bakoulis: other. We're all really good friends, and we all want
Gordon Bakoulis: each other to do well.
Rob Simmelkjaer: It's so amazing.
Gordon Bakoulis: But that 3, 000 number, that'll go up because I'll run
Gordon Bakoulis: the four miles. I'll finish whether I win-
Rob Simmelkjaer: I think just about all those numbers are going up, except
Rob Simmelkjaer: for maybe that Fred Lebow event record, that's going to
Rob Simmelkjaer: stay the same (inaudible)
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah, I'm never going to see that 114 again ever. That is a fact.
Rob Simmelkjaer: But other than that, I think you've got upside in
Rob Simmelkjaer: all of these, so it's pretty amazing.
Gordon Bakoulis: That was fun.
Rob Simmelkjaer: And Gordon, I want to end just talking about your
Rob Simmelkjaer: role at New York Road Runners as our historian. When
Rob Simmelkjaer: I first got here, I remember I knew the organization
Rob Simmelkjaer: a little bit. I'd been a member and a runner.
Rob Simmelkjaer: But there was so much I didn't know about Road
Rob Simmelkjaer: Runners, about the history. And how many times people would say, "
Rob Simmelkjaer: Oh, you should ask Gordon that." Or, " Gordon knows," or, " Ask
Rob Simmelkjaer: Gordon." You're such a resource here and a treasure trove
Rob Simmelkjaer: of information about the history of the organization. What has
Rob Simmelkjaer: it meant for you to be in that role as
Rob Simmelkjaer: really our historian and keeping and telling the incredible history
Rob Simmelkjaer: of this organization?
Gordon Bakoulis: Well, I mean, you just said it. It is an
Gordon Bakoulis: incredible history. So I think that's the first part of
Gordon Bakoulis: it. How can you not be interested in an organization
Gordon Bakoulis: that started with these 40 or so scrappy ... They were
Gordon Bakoulis: all men back in the '50s who just loved running. They
Gordon Bakoulis: didn't have any money. They weren't doing it for prestige.
Gordon Bakoulis: They loved to run, and they believed in community, and
Gordon Bakoulis: they believed in inclusivity. There was never any membership restrictions
Gordon Bakoulis: that you had to be this fast or you had
Gordon Bakoulis: to be this race or this religion or this gender,
Gordon Bakoulis: anything. It was for anybody who wanted to run. 40
Gordon Bakoulis: people or so back in 1958. And what, over 100,000
Gordon Bakoulis: people today, and putting on the greatest races in the
Gordon Bakoulis: world in the best city in the world. How can you
Gordon Bakoulis: not find that compelling? So that's the main reason. It's
Gordon Bakoulis: just endlessly fascinating to me. If you ever want to
Gordon Bakoulis: just not hear from me for the next four hours,
Gordon Bakoulis: just sit me down with a bunch of old magazines
Gordon Bakoulis: and I'll get ... We used to have a magazine, as
Gordon Bakoulis: I'm sure you know. And we have it all on
Gordon Bakoulis: digitized, so you can look at them in PDFs. And they're
Gordon Bakoulis: just amazing. Just the growth, the people, the personalities, the
Gordon Bakoulis: events, the programs, the mission, the reach, just the reach
Gordon Bakoulis: that we've developed all over the world. But yet the
Gordon Bakoulis: focus here in New York and making New York a
Gordon Bakoulis: better place, in our partnerships with the city, with partners,
Gordon Bakoulis: all kinds of sponsorship relationships, it's just incredible. I'm getting
Gordon Bakoulis: chills. And really, I know I'm like a true believer,
Gordon Bakoulis: but I just don't understand how anyone could not find
Gordon Bakoulis: that fascinating.
Rob Simmelkjaer: What do you think people are saying?
Gordon Bakoulis: And the people, of course, I mentioned, I knew some of them personally, especially
Gordon Bakoulis: Ted Corbitt, Joe Kleinerman and Fred Lebow and Grete Waitz,
Gordon Bakoulis: the four of them among many. We've had many, many
Gordon Bakoulis: incredible people that have been part of our organization, and
Gordon Bakoulis: they were all extraordinary individuals.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah.
Gordon Bakoulis: They taught me a lot, and I just feel like
Gordon Bakoulis: to honor them, to honor their memory and their legacy,
Gordon Bakoulis: it's the least I can do to try to make
Gordon Bakoulis: sure those stories continue to be told.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Yeah. Knowing the organization as well as you do, what is
Rob Simmelkjaer: the thing about Road Runners that you think is maybe
Rob Simmelkjaer: the least understood? What do you think people don't know
Rob Simmelkjaer: about New York Road Runners that they should know?
Gordon Bakoulis: Yeah. What comes to mind is just the forward- thinking,
Gordon Bakoulis: always looking ahead to the next thing. I think that's
Gordon Bakoulis: somewhat well known, but there's just so many examples of
Gordon Bakoulis: that through the years. It's more than just being visionary,
Gordon Bakoulis: which I think we are. We've always been visionary. Even
Gordon Bakoulis: when we couldn't see exactly what the future was going
Gordon Bakoulis: to look like, we knew that we were ... It's like
Gordon Bakoulis: running. You're heading towards something rather than away from something.
Gordon Bakoulis: We created this 5- Boro Marathon, this amazing thing that
Gordon Bakoulis: it just sounded so extraordinary when we first came up
Gordon Bakoulis: with it, and it worked. We pulled it off in
Gordon Bakoulis: 1976, and it was supposed to be a one- off
Gordon Bakoulis: to celebrate the Bicentennial. But it was so successful and
Gordon Bakoulis: so compelling that we have done it every year since.
Gordon Bakoulis: But right from that first moment, the leaders and everyone
Gordon Bakoulis: involved with the organization was trying to make it better.
Gordon Bakoulis: Not just making sure it's accurately measured and all that,
Gordon Bakoulis: which is what all races do, but how can it
Gordon Bakoulis: be better? How can we bring more international runners in?
Gordon Bakoulis: How can we make the experience of getting to the
Gordon Bakoulis: start easier for the runners? Let's broadcast it. Let's get
Gordon Bakoulis: it on a broadcast and send it all over the
Gordon Bakoulis: world. And just that forward- thinking attitude, not just with
Gordon Bakoulis: the marathon, but with everything that we do and that
Gordon Bakoulis: willingness to try new things. We're in such a good
Gordon Bakoulis: place right now. I mean, you know that better than
Gordon Bakoulis: I do. Running is so successful, we're so successful. But
Gordon Bakoulis: still we're just thinking, " How can we make it better?
Gordon Bakoulis: How can we make it how our race is more
Gordon Bakoulis: equitable, so more people can run our races in more
Gordon Bakoulis: places and have the experience and not feel like we're
Gordon Bakoulis: a club that they can't become a member of?" I
Gordon Bakoulis: think that's it. And I think we all do a
Gordon Bakoulis: great job of this, just making sure that story, that
Gordon Bakoulis: aspect of who we are is woven into everything that
Gordon Bakoulis: we do.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Well, Gordon, congratulations on an amazing career here at New
Rob Simmelkjaer: York Road Runners. We're going to miss you in the
Rob Simmelkjaer: office, for sure.
Gordon Bakoulis: I know.
Rob Simmelkjaer: But we really will. You've been such a steadying and
Rob Simmelkjaer: a force here and such a pillar of the organization.
Rob Simmelkjaer: But I know we're going to keep seeing you at
Rob Simmelkjaer: starting lines and finish lines, so you won't be far.
Rob Simmelkjaer: But thank you for everything. Thanks for joining us and
Rob Simmelkjaer: thanks for sharing some of your journey today on Set the Pace.
Gordon Bakoulis: Oh, thank you so much. Yeah. No, retirement is a bittersweet moment
Gordon Bakoulis: for sure. I feel like I'm retiring to something rather
Gordon Bakoulis: than retiring from something, because I know I'll never fully
Gordon Bakoulis: leave New York Road Runners and all the relationships that
Gordon Bakoulis: I have here. But I'm excited to move on to
Gordon Bakoulis: the next thing. And thank you as well. I truly
Gordon Bakoulis: feel that the past few years here have been the
Gordon Bakoulis: best in my experience with the organization, and we're in
Gordon Bakoulis: a great place.
Rob Simmelkjaer: That means a lot to me.
Gordon Bakoulis: So I appreciate your kind words, and I appreciate the
Gordon Bakoulis: organization and everything it's done and will continue to do.
Gordon Bakoulis: So thanks.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Thank you, Gordon.
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Rob Simmelkjaer: This past Saturday was the Citizens Queens 10K. It was the
Rob Simmelkjaer: fourth race in the 2026 New York Road Runners 5- Boro
Rob Simmelkjaer: series. We want to thank the more than 11,000 finishers
Rob Simmelkjaer: we had out in Queens this past Saturday. The weather
Rob Simmelkjaer: was beautiful. It was an absolutely gorgeous day to run.
Rob Simmelkjaer: Now, we know that course was a little bit different.
Rob Simmelkjaer: There were a lot of twists and turns on that
Rob Simmelkjaer: course. The Citizens Queens 10K has always been a course
Rob Simmelkjaer: with a lot of turns. We had to add even
Rob Simmelkjaer: more for this year's edition because of construction that is
Rob Simmelkjaer: going on in Flushing Meadows Park. So we heard from
Rob Simmelkjaer: all the folks out there who got a little dizzy running
Rob Simmelkjaer: that course, but a lot of people liked it too.
Rob Simmelkjaer: I heard from a lot of folks that liked the
Rob Simmelkjaer: technical nature of the course. So if you like turns,
Rob Simmelkjaer: it was a great, great event for you. And obviously
Rob Simmelkjaer: it was a beautiful day. So I know people had a
Rob Simmelkjaer: lot of fun during the race, at the festival as
Rob Simmelkjaer: well. Citizens and other partners come out, do such a
Rob Simmelkjaer: great job creating a festive atmosphere around that race. So
Rob Simmelkjaer: hope everybody had a good time out in Queens. On
Rob Simmelkjaer: the results side, the men's winner was Jaouad El Jazouli with a 31:
Rob Simmelkjaer: 07 from the United Mexican Runners of New York. On
Rob Simmelkjaer: the women's side, Alana Levy, our friend from Brooklyn Track
Rob Simmelkjaer: Club was the winner, 34:55. And the non- binary winner,
Rob Simmelkjaer: Kester Antequina, with the time of 37: 51 from Front Runners
Rob Simmelkjaer: New York. Speaking of front runners, we're so excited for
Rob Simmelkjaer: this coming weekend, the Pride Run happening on Saturday. I
Rob Simmelkjaer: will be there running that, one of my favorite races to
Rob Simmelkjaer: run every year. And then of course, right after that,
Rob Simmelkjaer: we've got our annual Hope & Possibility Race with our friends
Rob Simmelkjaer: from Achilles. So that's going to be a big weekend
Rob Simmelkjaer: of running in New York in Central Park coming up
Rob Simmelkjaer: this weekend. And that does it for another episode of
Rob Simmelkjaer: Set the Pace. We want to thank our guest today,
Rob Simmelkjaer: NYRR legend Gordon Bakoulis. If you liked our episode today,
Rob Simmelkjaer: make sure you hit that Subscribe button, tell a friend,
Rob Simmelkjaer: send us a comment so others can find this show
Rob Simmelkjaer: as well. Good luck to everybody running this weekend. Enjoy
Rob Simmelkjaer: the miles. We'll see you soon.