WEBVTT - Warren Kinghorn Doesn't Think You're a Machine. 0:00:02.279 --> 0:00:04.320 If we live our lives just pursuing health, we're going 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:06.680 to end up disappointed because the question is like, well, 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:09.000 what is health for? Then we end up finding that 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:11.960 what we're ultimately longing for is, in some ways, something 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:15.239 that can't be satisfied by any particular thing, because we 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:19.919 have in ourselves this kind of natural desire for God 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:21.160 that only God can fill. 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:26.480 Welcome to the habit podcast conversations with writers about writing 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:30.440 I'm Jonathan Rogers, your host. Doctor Warren Kinghorn, is a 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:33.920 psychiatrist and theologian at Duke University, where he holds joint 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:37.479 appointments at Duke Divinity School and the Duke University Medical Center. 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:41.200 Warren's work focuses on the intersection of theology, mental health 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:44.680 and human flourishing, and he brings an integrated, humane perspective 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:47.839 to questions that too often get reduced to biology or technique. 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:51.840 His new book is wayfaring A Christian Approach to Mental 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:55.280 Health Care. In this episode, Warren Kinghorn and I discuss 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:57.800 how the metaphor of the human being as machine has 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:01.020 shaped mental health care and what's gained by reclaiming the 0:01:01.020 --> 0:01:04.619 older metaphor of the human as wayfarer. We talk about 0:01:04.620 --> 0:01:07.980 the ways that Thomas Aquinas theological vision of human behavior 0:01:07.980 --> 0:01:11.380 opens up a richer account of freedom, agency, and virtue. 0:01:11.740 --> 0:01:13.819 And we talk about the possibility that the meaning of 0:01:13.819 --> 0:01:20.780 life is an active participation in blessing. Warren Kinghorn, I'm 0:01:20.780 --> 0:01:22.620 so happy to have you on The Habit podcast. I'm 0:01:22.620 --> 0:01:27.780 so excited about your book, wayfaring Subtitle A Christian Approach 0:01:27.780 --> 0:01:28.540 to Mental Health. 0:01:28.819 --> 0:01:30.619 A Christian Approach to Mental Health Care. And I'm so 0:01:30.620 --> 0:01:31.860 glad to be here. Thank you. 0:01:32.740 --> 0:01:35.340 Yeah. This is this is so fun. As I was 0:01:35.340 --> 0:01:38.220 telling you before we started recording, I just love this book. Um, 0:01:39.620 --> 0:01:42.300 maybe we'll just start with, well know. First, give me 0:01:42.300 --> 0:01:44.459 the 92nd version. When people say, what's your book about? 0:01:44.459 --> 0:01:45.259 What do you tell them? 0:01:46.140 --> 0:01:49.340 Well, I'm a psychiatrist. I love being a psychiatrist. I 0:01:49.340 --> 0:01:52.380 see things in the modern field of psychiatry that I 0:01:52.380 --> 0:01:54.460 think extend to the broader field of mental health care, 0:01:54.460 --> 0:01:58.300 where people can feel like they're being treated like machines 0:01:58.410 --> 0:02:00.530 that need to be fixed, and they can be felt 0:02:00.530 --> 0:02:02.770 like they're being carried along on a kind of assembly line. 0:02:03.090 --> 0:02:04.570 And I want to resist that. And I think that 0:02:04.570 --> 0:02:07.410 Christians have all the resources that we need to resist that. 0:02:07.410 --> 0:02:10.130 So in place of the image of the human being 0:02:10.130 --> 0:02:12.570 as a machine, especially the human body or mind as 0:02:12.570 --> 0:02:16.050 a machine, I draw in Saint Thomas Aquinas, the 13th 0:02:16.090 --> 0:02:19.650 century philosopher and theologian, to argue for a different image 0:02:19.650 --> 0:02:22.410 of the human as a wayfarer or pilgrim, and his 0:02:22.410 --> 0:02:25.410 human life as a journey. And and the practices of 0:02:25.410 --> 0:02:28.450 mental health care is being able to accompany each other 0:02:28.450 --> 0:02:30.130 on a journey. Hmm. 0:02:30.770 --> 0:02:34.210 Love it. Let's talk about that image of the machine. 0:02:34.330 --> 0:02:38.090 The machine metaphor. Um, yeah. What? What are the dangers? 0:02:38.090 --> 0:02:41.090 What are the ramifications of of thinking of of people 0:02:41.090 --> 0:02:44.530 as machines? I mean, in one sense, it's been pretty 0:02:44.530 --> 0:02:48.250 helpful to. Yeah. I mean, it has been to think 0:02:48.250 --> 0:02:50.410 of the human body as a machine, I think has 0:02:50.450 --> 0:02:52.850 been certainly has, has had its advantages. 0:02:53.169 --> 0:02:54.930 That's right. I think I think there are ways in 0:02:54.930 --> 0:02:57.950 which picturing the human body as a machine can help 0:02:57.950 --> 0:02:59.870 us to be able to see things and to. I've 0:02:59.870 --> 0:03:01.750 been a physician now for over 20 years. I think 0:03:01.750 --> 0:03:05.710 I benefit in some ways from machine thinking in, in, in, 0:03:05.870 --> 0:03:09.350 in healthcare as a whole and medicine specifically. I think 0:03:09.350 --> 0:03:11.270 there's limits, though, and I think it's important to name 0:03:11.270 --> 0:03:13.710 that we live in a culture where we're surrounded all 0:03:13.710 --> 0:03:16.310 the time by machines. So you and I are talking 0:03:16.310 --> 0:03:19.070 in different cities. We're depending on machines to, you know, 0:03:19.470 --> 0:03:23.030 allow us to have our conversation. Um, and, and this 0:03:23.030 --> 0:03:25.030 permeates our ways of thinking, not only about the world 0:03:25.030 --> 0:03:28.190 around us, but also about ourselves. Um, and there's a 0:03:28.190 --> 0:03:31.230 particular philosophical history to this that we may talk about. 0:03:31.230 --> 0:03:36.950 So especially, uh, René Descartes in the, you know, early 1600s, uh, 0:03:36.950 --> 0:03:39.670 is known as the father of modern philosophy. We think 0:03:39.670 --> 0:03:42.390 of him because he, he, uh, came up with this. 0:03:42.670 --> 0:03:45.350 He articulated this idea of substance dualism, that the mind 0:03:45.390 --> 0:03:47.910 is a separate substance from the body. And we think 0:03:47.910 --> 0:03:50.910 about Descartes often as being the champion of the idea 0:03:50.910 --> 0:03:55.150 of the mind as as completely disembodied, as immaterial, which 0:03:55.150 --> 0:03:59.020 which Descartes did affirm. But just as important to Descartes 0:03:59.020 --> 0:04:02.060 work was his affirmation that the body is a machine, 0:04:02.340 --> 0:04:04.780 and in fact that all bodies, animal and human bodies 0:04:04.780 --> 0:04:08.140 are machines and and all of the natural world is, 0:04:08.340 --> 0:04:12.100 is a matter of space and extension. So Descartes encouraged 0:04:12.100 --> 0:04:15.540 us to think of nature as a machine. It didn't 0:04:15.540 --> 0:04:19.020 take long before subsequent thinkers began to apply that way 0:04:19.020 --> 0:04:21.460 of thinking of a machine to the human mind also, 0:04:21.500 --> 0:04:24.060 which Descartes would have resisted, but which others would go 0:04:24.060 --> 0:04:25.940 along with. By the time we had the rise of 0:04:25.940 --> 0:04:30.260 modern psychology and psychiatry, this this idea that the human 0:04:30.260 --> 0:04:33.100 mind operated like a machine or as a machine was 0:04:33.100 --> 0:04:35.740 just kind of in the water, so to speak. It's 0:04:35.740 --> 0:04:37.860 something that Freud picked up on. It's something that a 0:04:37.860 --> 0:04:39.980 lot of early psychologists picked up on, and therefore it 0:04:39.980 --> 0:04:43.940 shows up in our modern medical and mental health practices. Um, 0:04:43.980 --> 0:04:46.020 I think apart from the history of it, though, I 0:04:46.020 --> 0:04:48.420 think it's just we even the language that we use 0:04:48.420 --> 0:04:52.860 for ourselves often tracks with the idea of machines. So 0:04:52.900 --> 0:04:55.000 in in my field of medicine, We talk a lot 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:59.400 about burnout of physicians and nurses. You know, pastors and 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:03.040 talk about this as well. But burnout is a mechanical image. Like, 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:05.800 what else burns out? You know, I mean, rockets burn out, 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:10.679 engines burn out, candles burn out. You know, we talk about, uh, 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:14.039 you know, going on vacation to recharge. We talk about, 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:16.320 you know, I have my, you know, my water and 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:19.200 my coffee in front of me to refuel. You know, 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:21.960 if I get hungry. These are all, like mechanistic images. 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:25.000 We talk about resilience, which is a physical image of, 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:27.760 you know, an immaterial object that bends but doesn't break. 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.320 And all these, I think are, are, are mechanical images 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:34.440 that we use to apply to ourselves. And I've learned 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:37.000 from Wendell Berry in this as well as others. But if, 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.080 if we if we insist on a on using mechanical 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:42.680 images for ourselves, we're eventually going to find ourselves treating 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.640 ourselves like machines. And so I think one, one just 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:47.480 practical thing for us all to think of is how 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:52.240 to resist mechanical, industrial images for human beings to replace 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:56.190 those with creaturely images. So we're not, um, you know, 0:05:56.230 --> 0:05:58.790 we're not we're not machines that burn out and need 0:05:58.790 --> 0:06:02.670 to be refueled and recharged. We're we're we're bodies. We're 0:06:02.670 --> 0:06:05.390 living creatures who need to be fed and nourished and 0:06:05.670 --> 0:06:09.789 tended and cared for and held. The this is this 0:06:09.790 --> 0:06:13.790 is befitting our nature as embodied creatures of God, not 0:06:13.790 --> 0:06:17.870 just artifacts or machines. Um, I can say more about 0:06:17.870 --> 0:06:19.470 the mental health care system and how I think that 0:06:19.470 --> 0:06:22.430 embodies this, but you may want to go a different direction. Uh, Jonathan. 0:06:22.430 --> 0:06:24.870 Well, one thing that I've been thinking, as you've been 0:06:24.870 --> 0:06:29.790 talking about the machine image, is that the reason the 0:06:29.790 --> 0:06:33.030 machine machinery image is helpful is because it simplifies like 0:06:33.070 --> 0:06:36.229 it takes an impossibly complex thing, like the human body 0:06:36.230 --> 0:06:41.190 and simplifies, you know, I can think about, you know, 0:06:41.230 --> 0:06:45.430 the knee, for instance, in it does have some, some 0:06:45.430 --> 0:06:51.589 significant overlap with, with how machinery works, the knee does 0:06:51.730 --> 0:06:56.250 and the shoulder and, you know, all kinds of processes. 0:06:56.250 --> 0:06:58.330 But I think we can forget the fact that it's 0:06:58.330 --> 0:07:03.090 helpful because it, it it, um, what's the word I'm 0:07:03.089 --> 0:07:09.410 looking for? It excludes it excludes so much reality to 0:07:09.450 --> 0:07:11.410 simplify something that we can get our brains around. And 0:07:11.410 --> 0:07:13.330 then then we think, aha, now I've got my brain 0:07:13.330 --> 0:07:17.570 around this thing. Right. And when we apply that to 0:07:18.610 --> 0:07:24.530 the mind, right. The soul, the all our processes. Sure. 0:07:24.570 --> 0:07:26.090 I mean, I think it's really helpful to know it's 0:07:26.090 --> 0:07:31.170 helpful because it is a gross oversimplification. Yeah. And then 0:07:31.170 --> 0:07:33.010 we and so that's not to say it's not helpful 0:07:33.010 --> 0:07:37.010 to say it helps by excluding most of reality. 0:07:37.490 --> 0:07:38.050 That's right. 0:07:38.490 --> 0:07:41.450 And and yet we still live with the rest of 0:07:41.450 --> 0:07:42.210 reality too. 0:07:42.730 --> 0:07:44.570 That's right. I mean, there are ways in which these 0:07:44.570 --> 0:07:47.530 mechanical images are very helpful because you're right. So my 0:07:47.570 --> 0:07:51.120 my mother has had two knee replacements. I'm really grateful 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.200 for the surgeons who figured out how to do that 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:58.080 and to to get that done. The the the knee is, um, 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:02.000 is a hinge. Uh, but it's not just a hinge. 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:03.480 It's not. It's not a hinge. It's like the hinge 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.080 is on the the hinges of my front door. Ah, 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:08.960 it's it's a knee. It's, it's much more complex than 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:11.760 simply calling it a hinge. The heart is a pump, 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:14.120 but it's not. It's not the same as the pump 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:17.960 that pumps, you know, water into our water towers, you know, 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:20.880 to come into our houses. It's it's a hard it's a, 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:24.600 it's an organic thing. So we, we tend to fix 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:27.800 on mechanical images to help us to understand the body. 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:31.600 And the danger is when those images come to subsume 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:33.880 our understanding of the body or, frankly, any part of 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:35.840 the body itself, because the body is almost always more 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:39.440 complex than any of these mechanical images. And that especially 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:42.560 applies to the brain, and it applies to the body 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:44.920 that relates the body as a whole as it relates 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:48.360 to our knowing and thinking and and acting. So I mean, 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:52.060 there's been lots of images of like, how, how what 0:08:52.059 --> 0:08:53.980 might we draw in from the language of mechanism to 0:08:54.020 --> 0:08:57.540 describe the brain? Is it is it a computer? Is 0:08:57.540 --> 0:09:00.980 it a neural network? Um, what is it? And I 0:09:00.980 --> 0:09:04.780 think all of these images have some benefit, but they 0:09:04.780 --> 0:09:07.420 always fall short because the brain and and and the 0:09:07.420 --> 0:09:12.140 body and and and the mind as like the as our, 0:09:12.140 --> 0:09:15.939 our our our ability to extend not only to our 0:09:15.940 --> 0:09:17.900 own bodies, but also to the bodies of others always 0:09:17.940 --> 0:09:21.820 eludes the mechanistic images that we might apply to them. 0:09:21.820 --> 0:09:24.219 So my my complaint in the book, and I make 0:09:24.220 --> 0:09:28.020 clear that in I kind of use the machine metaphor, 0:09:28.020 --> 0:09:30.459 is something that I want to in many ways oppose. 0:09:30.540 --> 0:09:33.460 But I do think that there are times when mechanistic 0:09:33.460 --> 0:09:36.660 thinking can be helpful and the medical model can be 0:09:36.660 --> 0:09:40.460 very helpful, uh, which I have to describe more in detail. 0:09:40.460 --> 0:09:43.020 But but I think it's the danger is when we 0:09:43.020 --> 0:09:47.060 reduce everything to mechanistic thinking or reduce everything to the 0:09:47.059 --> 0:09:50.130 idea that we can understand mental health problems, for example, 0:09:50.170 --> 0:09:54.210 only by recourse to more and better elucidation of what's 0:09:54.210 --> 0:09:58.090 happening in the brain, I think. I think our language 0:09:58.090 --> 0:10:01.210 always comes to an end, and we're left with some 0:10:01.210 --> 0:10:04.930 mystery that exceeds our ability to to name it. Yeah. 0:10:05.490 --> 0:10:11.490 Well, you and you're you're coming from a long tradition, um, here. 0:10:11.490 --> 0:10:14.250 But you talk about the idea that what it is 0:10:14.250 --> 0:10:21.569 to be human is connected very much to, um. The 0:10:21.809 --> 0:10:27.410 the reaching toward. Right. It's it's. Well, you're talking about wayfaring. 0:10:27.650 --> 0:10:29.610 That's the name of your book is wayfaring. We we 0:10:29.610 --> 0:10:35.010 are on a journey. We're moving toward something. Um, you 0:10:35.010 --> 0:10:37.890 say that that living beings always act toward ends, that 0:10:37.890 --> 0:10:41.290 we discern to be good for us. Yeah, this we are. 0:10:41.290 --> 0:10:47.630 We are always, uh, a hammer. Uh, doesn't The user 0:10:47.630 --> 0:10:48.950 of the hammer may have a purpose for it, but 0:10:48.950 --> 0:10:52.790 the hammer doesn't have a purpose. It doesn't. It doesn't 0:10:52.790 --> 0:10:59.510 seek out. Yeah. No machine seeks out its own purpose. 0:10:59.550 --> 0:11:01.950 It has to come from outside. And yet, what it 0:11:01.950 --> 0:11:05.189 means to be a human being is we are pursuing 0:11:05.309 --> 0:11:06.790 what we think is going to be good for us. Unfortunately, 0:11:06.790 --> 0:11:10.230 we're not very good at knowing what's good for us. Yeah. Um, yeah. 0:11:10.270 --> 0:11:15.429 And that can be a that can be framed as sin. 0:11:15.950 --> 0:11:18.390 It could be framed as bad mental health. I mean, 0:11:18.590 --> 0:11:22.069 those are I shouldn't say framed. I mean, some ways 0:11:22.070 --> 0:11:24.350 that we are bad at knowing what's good for us 0:11:24.710 --> 0:11:28.790 manifests in what's traditionally been called sin. And some of 0:11:28.790 --> 0:11:31.230 our pursuit of what's bad for us is falls into 0:11:31.230 --> 0:11:35.910 the category of mental ill mental health. Is that is 0:11:35.910 --> 0:11:36.790 that fair to say? 0:11:37.190 --> 0:11:39.590 Yeah. Well, those are obviously complex terms that we could 0:11:39.870 --> 0:11:41.590 we could unpack a lot more. I think in general, 0:11:41.630 --> 0:11:45.180 you're right that, uh, the one of the distinction between 0:11:45.460 --> 0:11:49.660 living creatures and inanimate objects is that or. The central 0:11:49.660 --> 0:11:52.500 distinction is that living creatures have within them on aquinas's 0:11:52.540 --> 0:11:57.420 terms have within themselves the the principle of their own movement. 0:11:57.420 --> 0:12:02.140 And so Aquinas talked about living creatures, having within them 0:12:02.140 --> 0:12:05.780 the capacity for nutrition and for growth and reproduction, as 0:12:05.780 --> 0:12:09.340 these internal principles that are given in creation. So plants can, 0:12:09.620 --> 0:12:13.699 can seek the sun and can absorb nutrients and can 0:12:13.740 --> 0:12:17.420 find ways to, to reproduce and, and animals also, and 0:12:17.420 --> 0:12:21.020 human beings also, and human beings. For Aquinas, unique among 0:12:21.020 --> 0:12:24.420 all creatures are those that can not only, uh, do 0:12:24.460 --> 0:12:30.380 the the kinds of creaturely tasks of, of growing and, uh, 0:12:30.500 --> 0:12:36.420 feeding and procreating and, and other things, but also can 0:12:36.420 --> 0:12:40.660 order our lives by, uh, according to God's ordering of 0:12:40.660 --> 0:12:43.459 the world. And so and so for Aquinas, humans have 0:12:43.460 --> 0:12:49.080 this God given capacity that he referred to as the intellectual, um, 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:53.560 faculty of the soul, to, uh, to know God and 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:56.760 to be able to know, uh, God's ordering of the 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:58.960 world so as to be able to regulate and to 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:02.520 order our lives accordingly. And of course, uh, we always 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:05.280 do that imperfectly. We do that imperfectly, in part because 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:09.640 we're finite creatures like we are embodied. And and the 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.120 fact that we're embodied means that we always are dealing 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.360 with a kind of creaturely limitation, but also we're wounded 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.839 by sin. And so we find ourselves distracted in various 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:22.679 ways and unable to unable to see the truth of 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:24.840 God and unable to order our lives according to the 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:28.119 things of God. And of course, for Aquinas, as a Christian, 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:30.640 you know the answer to that begins with God's grace, 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.760 that God in grace, specifically in the grace that comes 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:37.079 to us in in Jesus Christ, it enables us to 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:40.720 be able to, uh, to, to, to have within ourselves 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:45.790 the capacity to once again find, um, connection with union, 0:13:45.790 --> 0:13:48.270 with knowledge of God and God's ordering of the world 0:13:48.270 --> 0:13:51.230 so as to be able then to to progress into 0:13:51.230 --> 0:13:53.710 the life of God. And of course, Aquinas understood all 0:13:53.750 --> 0:13:57.630 of human life, ultimately, as as God's good creatures. We're 0:13:57.630 --> 0:14:01.630 from God as as our creator and as the one 0:14:01.630 --> 0:14:05.110 who has loved us into existence. We find ourselves now 0:14:05.110 --> 0:14:08.470 on a journey from God to God, and at the 0:14:08.510 --> 0:14:12.550 end of our lives is in the life of God. Um, in, uh, 0:14:12.710 --> 0:14:17.950 the the beatific vision and, uh, union and praise of 0:14:17.950 --> 0:14:21.950 God that we, we find ultimately and perfectly only in 0:14:21.950 --> 0:14:25.510 the life to come, but we find in part in 0:14:25.510 --> 0:14:28.790 this life and even just a glimpse of that, uh, 0:14:28.790 --> 0:14:32.230 in this life is, um, is is an incredible blessing 0:14:32.230 --> 0:14:32.750 for us. 0:14:33.710 --> 0:14:42.290 Yeah. Um, you along those lines, You say that? Um, 0:14:43.130 --> 0:14:47.330 and again, you're following Aquinas here. We really can't understand 0:14:47.330 --> 0:14:49.570 a thing unless we understand the end toward which it 0:14:49.610 --> 0:14:52.930 is directed. Mhm. Um, and then you say the question 0:14:52.930 --> 0:14:54.930 of whether a person is moving toward ends or goals 0:14:54.930 --> 0:14:58.850 that are life giving is not a neurochemical question, but 0:14:58.850 --> 0:14:59.930 a moral question. 0:15:00.490 --> 0:15:00.970 Mhm. 0:15:01.450 --> 0:15:05.610 Can you how are you using the word moral question there. 0:15:06.290 --> 0:15:09.210 Yeah. Well the part of the book where I talk 0:15:09.250 --> 0:15:11.850 about this is when we talk about Aquinas understanding of 0:15:11.850 --> 0:15:15.170 the four causes, which he draws from Aristotle. And very briefly, 0:15:15.170 --> 0:15:18.170 without going into too much technical detail, Aquinas would would 0:15:18.210 --> 0:15:21.970 have said with Aristotle that you really can't understand what 0:15:22.010 --> 0:15:24.770 a thing is. And especially he's he's thinking here about 0:15:24.770 --> 0:15:27.210 what we would consider like natural things like trees and 0:15:27.210 --> 0:15:32.210 frogs and human beings. Um, without understanding four dimensions of 0:15:32.250 --> 0:15:37.450 his existence, um, one would be the material dimension or 0:15:37.450 --> 0:15:40.800 material cause, which is basically the matter of which we're composed. 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:44.160 It basically means that, like, I'm sitting right here at 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:46.720 this desk and no one, no other creature can sit 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:49.360 exactly where I am because I'm here. They'd have to 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:51.560 push me aside to be able to do so. Um, 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.600 another would be the formal dimension or formal cause. And 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:58.360 and by that it means how is the matter configured? Like, 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:01.000 what's the shape and form that matter takes. So in 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:03.720 this case, uh, the form of the matter of my 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.600 body is not just the it's not just a human body, 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:10.520 but it's specifically me. We're in Kinghorn. This, you know, 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:17.680 as all of us are a kind of unrepeatable, unique, uh, person. And, uh, 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.600 he also understood the efficient, efficient cause is like those 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:24.520 things that have enabled us to grow into the kind 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:27.600 of creatures that we are. So that obviously begins, you know, 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:29.840 with the first moment of our conception and development. But 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:32.080 it continues and there's a lot of different ways to 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:35.160 understand that. And then finally, he said, you can't understand 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:37.820 what a thing is without considering what he considered Or 0:16:37.940 --> 0:16:41.860 final cause, or the ends and goals toward which something 0:16:41.860 --> 0:16:46.300 is directed. Um, this is clear. Like, let's say that you're, like, 0:16:46.340 --> 0:16:49.580 in a museum or going through an old, you know, 0:16:49.620 --> 0:16:52.020 drawer in a house that's been neglected for a long time. 0:16:52.020 --> 0:16:54.660 And you find you find something that clearly at some 0:16:54.660 --> 0:16:56.620 point had a function, but you don't know what it was. 0:16:56.660 --> 0:16:58.780 And you're like, I can see this thing in front 0:16:58.780 --> 0:17:00.740 of me, but I don't know what it is. What 0:17:00.740 --> 0:17:01.900 do we mean when we say we don't know what 0:17:01.900 --> 0:17:04.859 it is? Like, we can see it's maybe, maybe a 0:17:05.340 --> 0:17:07.380 a piece of metal that looks kind of sharp, but 0:17:07.380 --> 0:17:10.260 not a knife. And like, we can describe that. But 0:17:10.300 --> 0:17:13.020 until somebody says, oh, that's a letter opener, you know, 0:17:13.020 --> 0:17:16.060 then you don't actually know what it is like. And that, that, 0:17:16.220 --> 0:17:18.820 that applied to an artifact, something that humans have made 0:17:18.820 --> 0:17:21.459 is an example of how sometimes to know to know 0:17:21.460 --> 0:17:23.380 what something is, you have to know what it's for. 0:17:24.180 --> 0:17:27.179 And Aquinas would have said the same thing about creatures 0:17:27.180 --> 0:17:28.940 is that, you know, we know in some ways what 0:17:28.940 --> 0:17:32.379 something is based on what it's for and specifically the 0:17:32.380 --> 0:17:35.820 the purposes and goals that, that constitute the life of 0:17:35.859 --> 0:17:39.090 that creature. And so and so we we know what 0:17:39.130 --> 0:17:41.050 a what a snake is, or what a frog is, 0:17:41.050 --> 0:17:43.010 or what a tree is, in part by what those 0:17:43.010 --> 0:17:45.730 creatures do. And and we know what a human being is, 0:17:45.890 --> 0:17:48.929 in part because human beings are those that live a 0:17:48.930 --> 0:17:53.169 human life that humans characteristically live, and a life of 0:17:53.170 --> 0:17:56.090 excellence and, and that, uh, in, in some ways, to 0:17:56.130 --> 0:17:59.810 know somebody, to know, to know a person is not 0:17:59.810 --> 0:18:03.090 just to know, like what's in what matter they're composed of, 0:18:03.090 --> 0:18:04.650 or even what their body looks like, or how it's 0:18:04.650 --> 0:18:07.170 configured or what brought that body into being. But it's 0:18:07.170 --> 0:18:09.810 to know something about about them, like what kind of 0:18:09.810 --> 0:18:12.969 life are they pursuing? And that, I argue, is you 0:18:12.970 --> 0:18:15.729 can't reduce that to chemistry like you have to then 0:18:15.770 --> 0:18:19.450 to engage in story and narrative and, and and that's 0:18:19.450 --> 0:18:21.650 what I mean by these are moral questions. You can't 0:18:21.650 --> 0:18:25.250 ever get into a neurobiology lab or a, you know, 0:18:25.290 --> 0:18:29.730 physical chemistry lab and say, oh, now I understand Jonathan Rogers, 0:18:29.730 --> 0:18:32.369 because I can see every way, every cell of his 0:18:32.369 --> 0:18:34.730 body is put together because, frankly, you could see all 0:18:34.730 --> 0:18:38.310 of that. But unless. Unless they knew of you as 0:18:38.470 --> 0:18:42.190 a as an artist, you know, as a teacher. Um, 0:18:42.230 --> 0:18:44.830 as as someone who has had a long career in 0:18:44.830 --> 0:18:47.470 literature and, and understand what that matters to you, they're 0:18:47.470 --> 0:18:49.510 not going to know you, nor any of us in 0:18:49.510 --> 0:18:50.030 those ways. 0:18:51.790 --> 0:18:55.190 Um, you can tell me if I'm overstating the case, um, 0:18:55.830 --> 0:18:59.470 because you've thought a lot more about this than I have, but, um, 0:19:00.270 --> 0:19:02.389 is it is it in any way fair to say 0:19:02.390 --> 0:19:06.910 that science, as it has been defined for the last 0:19:07.150 --> 0:19:12.550 several centuries, is trying to do, um, the first three 0:19:13.150 --> 0:19:16.630 kinds of causes that you're talking about and skip the, 0:19:17.470 --> 0:19:19.910 the final cause. Is that is that fair to say? 0:19:19.910 --> 0:19:21.230 Is that an overstatement? 0:19:22.190 --> 0:19:25.030 I think it's mostly fair to say that that modern 0:19:25.030 --> 0:19:30.070 science focuses almost exclusively on efficient causation. How does something, 0:19:30.109 --> 0:19:33.750 how to to, uh, to physical causes in the world, 0:19:33.750 --> 0:19:40.100 Old cause changes that result in the phenomena that we see. Indirectly, 0:19:40.100 --> 0:19:43.340 we also scientists would also care about the matter of 0:19:43.340 --> 0:19:45.740 which something's made and the the form that that takes. 0:19:45.740 --> 0:19:49.220 But that's almost always brought into the language of, of, uh, 0:19:49.220 --> 0:19:52.500 efficient causation. That said, I think there are and I'm 0:19:52.540 --> 0:19:54.740 not a philosopher of science. I'm not certainly not a 0:19:54.740 --> 0:19:57.460 philosopher of biology. But there are those within the field 0:19:57.460 --> 0:20:01.540 of biology who argue that as much as, as, uh, 0:20:01.540 --> 0:20:06.419 some might want to strip like purposes and, and, uh, 0:20:06.580 --> 0:20:09.459 and final causes away that, that actually especially when you 0:20:09.460 --> 0:20:13.300 get into the, the, into living things, um, you actually 0:20:13.300 --> 0:20:15.100 can't do so and still make sense of the field. 0:20:15.100 --> 0:20:16.980 So I think there is some diversity of thought. 0:20:17.300 --> 0:20:19.419 Uh, okay. I'm glad to hear that there's diversity of 0:20:19.420 --> 0:20:23.820 thought in that. Yeah. Because I think of, um, and this, 0:20:23.859 --> 0:20:28.900 you know, probably just from surface level reading that, that, um, 0:20:30.020 --> 0:20:33.560 contemporary science is sort of trying to, get out of 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:36.320 the teleology business, you know? Yeah. 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:38.800 I think I think there's, there's internal debate about that, 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:42.080 especially in philosophy of biology and certainly within psychology as well. 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:45.280 You know, there's ways in which the early behaviorists wanted 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:50.040 to actually take really, in some ways all subjectivity away from, uh, 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:52.480 study of behavior. And, and in fact, we found that 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:55.040 you just can't do that and make sense of the phenomena. 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:57.800 So now modern psychology is actually a pretty diverse field 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:01.399 where you have, uh, the people don't frame it in 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.120 this way, but but they, they're often thinking of the 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:09.160 irreducibility of, of story and narrative and, and purposes and 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:12.160 goals as, as part of understanding, like what it means to, 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:13.879 to view a human being. So again, that's a way 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:16.240 of saying you just you just can't get rid of 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:19.320 teleology or the idea of like to understand something, you 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:21.520 have to understand what it's heading toward or what it's for. 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:29.720 Yeah, yeah. Um, okay. So help me bridge this idea 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:34.430 of of final cause Teleology. You know what a thing 0:21:34.430 --> 0:21:43.190 is for? Um. With the idea of human agency and virtue. 0:21:43.230 --> 0:21:45.510 You write about human agency. You write about virtue. That 0:21:45.510 --> 0:21:48.710 one of our, you know, one of these, the signs 0:21:48.710 --> 0:21:53.470 of mental health is, um, or maybe the very basis 0:21:53.470 --> 0:21:57.270 of mental health is I have the agency to to 0:21:58.270 --> 0:22:01.150 behave in ways that that are. Well, I'll let you 0:22:01.150 --> 0:22:02.310 define agency. Right. 0:22:03.270 --> 0:22:05.950 Yeah, yeah. You've used you just used the word agency. 0:22:05.950 --> 0:22:08.830 That's really important to me as a psychiatrist and also 0:22:08.830 --> 0:22:11.350 as a Christian. You know, in medicine, we tend to 0:22:11.350 --> 0:22:14.430 focus on this idea of autonomy, which often has this 0:22:14.430 --> 0:22:18.070 Kantian ring to it. As someone who is in some 0:22:18.070 --> 0:22:20.750 ways a like a ruler of their own actions, who 0:22:20.790 --> 0:22:24.110 sets their own law. And often the language of autonomy 0:22:24.109 --> 0:22:27.590 leads us to this idea of a kind of self-contained, 0:22:27.630 --> 0:22:30.490 self choosing, self-governing Individual. 0:22:30.530 --> 0:22:31.250 Oh, yeah. 0:22:31.290 --> 0:22:35.370 And and that's different from, from from what Aquinas meant 0:22:35.369 --> 0:22:38.850 by by free will and by freedom. And I think 0:22:38.850 --> 0:22:42.570 the word agency captures it better. Um, let me back 0:22:42.570 --> 0:22:45.250 up and say there was a a French Dominican thinker 0:22:45.250 --> 0:22:48.409 who drew on Aquinas, named Servaes Pinckaers, who wrote a 0:22:48.410 --> 0:22:51.650 book about 30 years ago called The Sources of Christian Ethics. 0:22:51.650 --> 0:22:54.250 And at the center of that book was a distinction 0:22:54.250 --> 0:22:57.169 between two conceptions of freedom that I think a lot 0:22:57.170 --> 0:23:00.610 of Christians will resonate with. One is he called when 0:23:00.609 --> 0:23:03.610 he called freedom of indifference. So this idea would be 0:23:03.609 --> 0:23:05.290 that this this would be the kind of idea of 0:23:05.290 --> 0:23:08.490 freedom as just the capacity to do anything that we 0:23:08.490 --> 0:23:12.810 want to have, like perfect ability to choose our own path, um, 0:23:12.810 --> 0:23:16.570 without any other constraints. And he said, that's, that's a 0:23:16.609 --> 0:23:18.969 kind of a kind of freedom that's that's treasured in 0:23:18.970 --> 0:23:21.250 our modern world. But it's not the Christian, the best 0:23:21.250 --> 0:23:24.010 Christian understanding of freedom. Opposed to that is what he 0:23:24.010 --> 0:23:28.530 called freedom for excellence. That actually does involve constraint and 0:23:28.530 --> 0:23:32.359 it involves law and it involves disciplines. It involves actually 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:35.840 submitting ourselves in some ways to, uh, to certain kinds 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:39.240 of authority. And and yet the freedom that emerges in 0:23:39.240 --> 0:23:42.120 freedom for excellence is, is is not the freedom to be, 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:46.040 to be, um, free of any other kind of constraint. 0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:49.160 But it's the freedom to live a life that's consistent 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:51.760 with what's good and and that in living a life 0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:54.120 consistent with what's good, aiming toward what's true and what's 0:23:54.119 --> 0:23:57.439 good and what's beautiful, we actually find a kind of 0:23:57.440 --> 0:24:00.399 growth of interior freedom to be able to, to, to 0:24:00.440 --> 0:24:06.000 pursue those things, um, with joy and with relative ease 0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:08.600 and in a way that actually we find the growth 0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:12.040 of freedom in that freedom for excellence. So when, when 0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:15.439 Aquinas talks about, uh, agency or when I use the 0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:19.160 word agency to describe Aquinas view, it's agency is not 0:24:19.160 --> 0:24:22.600 just like freedom from any kind of constraint, but it's 0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:26.680 specifically the growth of the ability to act for purposes 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:29.700 and goals in the world that in some ways we 0:24:29.700 --> 0:24:31.940 are the seat. Or he would have, said the principium, 0:24:31.940 --> 0:24:36.820 the originator of our actions. So how when I pursue 0:24:36.859 --> 0:24:42.420 a relationship or a new academic opportunity in my role 0:24:42.420 --> 0:24:44.619 as a professor, or a new clinical opportunity in my 0:24:44.619 --> 0:24:49.340 role as a physician, or, um, you know, do something 0:24:49.340 --> 0:24:51.340 different with my church or something like that. How am 0:24:51.340 --> 0:24:54.100 I doing so in a way that I am choosing 0:24:54.140 --> 0:24:56.180 to do so based on reasons that are good. I'm 0:24:56.180 --> 0:25:00.379 not I'm not constrained or coerced by others, or especially 0:25:00.380 --> 0:25:03.540 by my own internal dynamics. But but to be able 0:25:03.540 --> 0:25:06.740 to do so, to freely choose to pursue a path 0:25:06.740 --> 0:25:11.220 that's consistent with, um, with what's good and, uh, and 0:25:11.220 --> 0:25:13.340 we grow in our ability to do that. And so 0:25:13.380 --> 0:25:17.700 and so someone who is, um, who is, uh, for example, 0:25:17.900 --> 0:25:21.500 you know, in the, in the vice grip of um, 0:25:21.740 --> 0:25:24.860 of addiction or, or a kind of substance use disorder 0:25:24.980 --> 0:25:28.930 finds their agency constrained. They can actually choose to do things, 0:25:28.930 --> 0:25:32.250 but they can't choose freely. They find themselves like the 0:25:32.290 --> 0:25:35.210 range of action, the capacity to be that agent who's 0:25:35.210 --> 0:25:38.250 able to freely act for purposes and goals is constrained. 0:25:38.290 --> 0:25:41.650 When somebody is in a situation of significant social deprivation, 0:25:41.690 --> 0:25:46.010 you know, they're incarcerated or they're in a really untenable 0:25:46.010 --> 0:25:49.970 financial situation or unstable housing. Also, their agency is constrained 0:25:49.970 --> 0:25:52.929 because of these external things that happen. So so the 0:25:52.930 --> 0:25:55.250 growth of agency is in part related to external factors, 0:25:55.250 --> 0:25:57.810 but it's also related to like how we are, how 0:25:57.810 --> 0:26:03.050 we orient ourselves toward what's good. And for for Aquinas. Uh, 0:26:03.210 --> 0:26:06.970 I mean, this podcast is called habit. And for Aquinas, 0:26:06.970 --> 0:26:11.450 habits are are grooves of our of our thinking and 0:26:11.450 --> 0:26:16.730 acting that, uh, that that enable us to then be 0:26:16.770 --> 0:26:20.090 able to think and act in particular ways with ease 0:26:20.090 --> 0:26:24.330 and pleasure and, uh, and habits that are consistent with 0:26:24.330 --> 0:26:27.910 what's good. Are called virtues. Habits that distract us and 0:26:27.910 --> 0:26:32.070 that enclose us are called vices. And so for Aquinas, 0:26:32.470 --> 0:26:35.950 the moral life is about the cultivation of habits that 0:26:36.470 --> 0:26:38.669 enable us to act toward what's good and true and beautiful, 0:26:38.670 --> 0:26:40.950 and ultimately toward God and toward the life of God. 0:26:41.270 --> 0:26:43.110 And to be able to do so with with ease 0:26:43.109 --> 0:26:45.030 and pleasure. And that's that's why I think the language 0:26:45.030 --> 0:26:49.070 of virtue can often seem kind of kind of patronizing 0:26:49.109 --> 0:26:51.629 and moralizing. But I think the language of virtue is 0:26:51.630 --> 0:26:54.669 really important for thinking about mental health, but also about, 0:26:55.030 --> 0:26:58.190 you know, the work of, of art because it because 0:26:58.190 --> 0:26:59.990 it involves what does it mean to be able to, 0:27:00.030 --> 0:27:02.629 to act in a way that's free and open and 0:27:02.670 --> 0:27:04.310 and open to the world as it is? 0:27:05.670 --> 0:27:09.750 Yeah. That language of ease and pleasure is, um, I think, 0:27:09.910 --> 0:27:13.590 can be surprising to somebody who's used to thinking of virtue, as, 0:27:13.990 --> 0:27:17.510 you know, buckle down, do the hard thing, you know, 0:27:17.550 --> 0:27:21.230 I mean, even the language of do hard things is, 0:27:21.470 --> 0:27:24.100 is a, um, kind of a catch catchphrase for what 0:27:24.100 --> 0:27:25.620 it means to to live a good life. 0:27:25.859 --> 0:27:26.699 Um, yeah. 0:27:27.020 --> 0:27:29.419 Yeah. And I certainly don't think that a life of 0:27:29.420 --> 0:27:33.619 virtue precludes doing hard things. But. But the doing of 0:27:33.619 --> 0:27:36.940 hard things, the fact that it's hard is not the 0:27:36.940 --> 0:27:38.780 clue that it's virtuous, I guess I would say. 0:27:38.820 --> 0:27:41.060 Yeah. That's right. And I think that's that's right. And 0:27:41.060 --> 0:27:43.740 I think that that, I mean, pursuing a life of 0:27:43.740 --> 0:27:46.780 virtue doesn't, does entail finding things hard, especially when we're 0:27:46.780 --> 0:27:50.300 first starting out. But, uh, but you're right that that 0:27:50.340 --> 0:27:53.060 the cultivation of virtue often allows things that previously were 0:27:53.060 --> 0:27:55.540 really hard to be to be easier, frankly, not always, 0:27:55.540 --> 0:27:58.700 but sometimes. And to give a couple of concrete examples 0:27:58.700 --> 0:28:01.900 of how we our modern ways of thinking about virtue, 0:28:01.900 --> 0:28:06.020 I think, doesn't actually convey what Aquinas means. Uh, two, 0:28:06.060 --> 0:28:08.860 two virtues. One would be the virtue of prudence. Like 0:28:08.859 --> 0:28:11.500 when we talk, we think about prudence. One is it's 0:28:11.500 --> 0:28:14.940 a very kind of Victorian archaic term, but also it 0:28:14.980 --> 0:28:16.979 it tends to convey like to be prudent is to 0:28:16.980 --> 0:28:20.700 be cautious, to be constantly, like almost afraid to act 0:28:20.700 --> 0:28:24.640 because we're wanting to be prudent. But for Aquinas, the 0:28:24.680 --> 0:28:29.840 virtue of prudence or prudence. Prudentia. Um, was he understood 0:28:29.840 --> 0:28:33.160 it as a cardinal virtue? And it basically is the capacity. 0:28:33.520 --> 0:28:37.480 In complex situations, to be able to step into difficult 0:28:37.480 --> 0:28:41.040 situations and to just have. A kind of ability to 0:28:41.080 --> 0:28:44.200 sense what the right thing is to do. So think 0:28:44.200 --> 0:28:46.160 of somebody who. You know, is just good at what 0:28:46.160 --> 0:28:48.720 they do. They can step into a room where there's 0:28:48.720 --> 0:28:50.920 tension and they just know what to say and what 0:28:50.960 --> 0:28:54.720 to do. They can step into a difficult relationship and 0:28:54.720 --> 0:28:56.440 be like, I think, I, I think I have some 0:28:56.440 --> 0:28:59.120 sense of what needs to happen here. That's what prudence 0:28:59.120 --> 0:29:01.600 is for Aquinas, and it's what we all want for ourselves. 0:29:01.600 --> 0:29:03.640 And when you see it in somebody else, it's really beautiful. 0:29:04.000 --> 0:29:06.600 I had a tow truck driver show up after a 0:29:06.600 --> 0:29:10.160 fender bender. Yeah. And he was amazing. He was just, 0:29:10.200 --> 0:29:12.600 you know, his whole all day, every day he was 0:29:12.600 --> 0:29:16.080 coming to, you know, somebody's worst day they'd had all month. 0:29:16.560 --> 0:29:18.840 And he was just there to sort of sort just 0:29:18.840 --> 0:29:22.030 to help. And it's such a great example of prudence. 0:29:22.350 --> 0:29:24.950 That's right. It's a specific example. Like he's had experience. 0:29:24.950 --> 0:29:26.590 He kind of knows how to step into a hard 0:29:26.590 --> 0:29:28.870 situation and be like, hey, it's going to be all right. 0:29:28.870 --> 0:29:31.150 We're going to get this taken care of. Same way. 0:29:31.190 --> 0:29:33.590 Virtue of self-control. I mean, we in our culture, we 0:29:33.590 --> 0:29:37.110 think of self-control or or temperance as like always just 0:29:37.110 --> 0:29:40.229 restraining ourselves and like, you know, it's so hard to 0:29:40.270 --> 0:29:44.030 be controlled about what you're eating or whatever it is, but, um, 0:29:44.030 --> 0:29:46.390 and that is part of what self-control is. But for Aquinas, 0:29:46.390 --> 0:29:50.510 self-control fundamentally has to do first with like, what does 0:29:50.510 --> 0:29:53.150 it mean to care well for ourselves, to give our 0:29:53.150 --> 0:29:57.030 bodies what they what our bodies actually need instead of 0:29:57.030 --> 0:30:00.510 what we what we think we need? That actually makes 0:30:00.510 --> 0:30:02.270 it harder for us in the long run. And so, 0:30:02.510 --> 0:30:04.430 so a different understanding. Self-control is like, how can I 0:30:04.430 --> 0:30:06.950 actually learn to care for my body in a way 0:30:06.950 --> 0:30:10.350 that actually is sustainable and good and healthy, you know? 0:30:10.390 --> 0:30:14.030 And so those are the different ways in which, like 0:30:14.070 --> 0:30:18.830 reframing virtus away from just like things that seem, um, 0:30:18.870 --> 0:30:20.890 you know, You know, patronizing and moralizing toward things that 0:30:20.890 --> 0:30:23.090 seem life giving and freeing, I think is really important 0:30:23.090 --> 0:30:23.530 for us. 0:30:23.570 --> 0:30:27.010 Yeah. And, you know, along the same lines, the way 0:30:27.090 --> 0:30:30.610 Aquinas talks about courage is it leads to cheerfulness, right? 0:30:30.650 --> 0:30:31.330 Absolutely. Yeah. 0:30:31.330 --> 0:30:33.290 That's right. There is a there is the connection between 0:30:33.290 --> 0:30:38.010 cheerfulness and and courage I think is fascinating. And, you know, 0:30:38.690 --> 0:30:40.650 you didn't use the phrase just then, but you could 0:30:40.690 --> 0:30:44.890 have said, you know, self-control leads to ease and pleasure and. 0:30:44.930 --> 0:30:47.610 Yeah. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. 0:30:47.890 --> 0:30:51.410 But also, you mentioned prudence as being able to step 0:30:51.410 --> 0:30:54.330 into a situation and know what to do. I think 0:30:54.330 --> 0:30:56.570 it's worth pointing out. I mean, it's going to lead 0:30:56.570 --> 0:30:58.290 to kind of the next thing I want to talk about. 0:30:59.170 --> 0:31:02.610 The way Aquinas talked about prudence was being open to 0:31:02.650 --> 0:31:06.890 to reality, you know, to, to, to instead of defining 0:31:06.890 --> 0:31:10.250 my own reality, which, by the way, can make for 0:31:10.250 --> 0:31:13.290 a really a lot of misery for a lot of people. 0:31:13.610 --> 0:31:18.250 That's right. Um, as I align myself with, with reality 0:31:18.400 --> 0:31:22.640 and resist the temptation to believe that reality is, you 0:31:22.640 --> 0:31:26.959 know what I want it to be, or reality is, um, or, 0:31:27.000 --> 0:31:29.640 you know, the desire to bend reality to to my 0:31:29.640 --> 0:31:37.920 own purposes. Yeah. Um, which I think maybe in some ways, uh, well, 0:31:37.920 --> 0:31:41.880 I guess that's guile. Um, yeah. That that tendency to 0:31:41.920 --> 0:31:46.960 to bend, to attempt to bend reality to my own purposes. Um. 0:31:47.240 --> 0:31:49.480 That's right. But the idea that there is a reality 0:31:49.480 --> 0:31:51.840 that's outside us and I didn't invent and I can, 0:31:51.880 --> 0:31:54.040 as I conform to that, I'm prudent. And I know, 0:31:54.080 --> 0:31:56.360 you know, I can be the best tow truck driver 0:31:56.360 --> 0:32:02.240 in the world because I, um, am aligned with reality. 0:32:02.280 --> 0:32:04.680 And I'm. And I've stepped into a situation where people 0:32:04.680 --> 0:32:07.400 feel unmoored. I mean, there's a car accident makes you 0:32:07.400 --> 0:32:09.880 feel unmoored from reality. And this tow truck driver comes 0:32:09.880 --> 0:32:17.700 in and says, you know, I yeah, he's he's more Yeah. Maud, 0:32:17.740 --> 0:32:18.860 I guess, is the word I'm looking for. 0:32:18.900 --> 0:32:21.340 Right. I mean, when acquaintance talks about prudence in the 0:32:21.340 --> 0:32:27.420 Summa Theologiae, he has a list of, of in a 0:32:27.460 --> 0:32:29.620 kind of technical term. He calls them quasi integral parts 0:32:29.620 --> 0:32:31.980 of prudence. But they're basically like, what are the kind 0:32:31.980 --> 0:32:34.700 of building blocks of the development of prudence? And I 0:32:34.700 --> 0:32:36.900 can't list all of them from, from memory. But he 0:32:37.180 --> 0:32:40.300 they include things like, um, circumspection, like the ability to 0:32:40.340 --> 0:32:43.300 just notice what's around you. They include a kind of 0:32:43.340 --> 0:32:46.500 awareness of the past, an ability to look toward the future. 0:32:46.860 --> 0:32:49.820 Does include some amount of caution, like not acting too rashly, 0:32:49.820 --> 0:32:52.020 but it also involves a kind of freedom to be 0:32:52.020 --> 0:32:55.420 able to act. It involves, uh, teachable ness, you know, 0:32:55.420 --> 0:32:59.700 said docility or docility, the ability to learn. So again, 0:32:59.740 --> 0:33:01.780 like when we think about, like, now that we're having 0:33:01.780 --> 0:33:04.940 all these debates in our culture about higher education, for example, 0:33:05.180 --> 0:33:06.780 you know, and like, what is the point of education? 0:33:06.780 --> 0:33:09.820 I think some of what Aquinas writes about, like these 0:33:10.140 --> 0:33:12.940 integral parts of prudence as like things that we want 0:33:12.940 --> 0:33:18.050 students to cultivate, you know, awareness and reflection and teachable 0:33:18.050 --> 0:33:21.730 ness and, you know, and caution. And I think there's 0:33:21.730 --> 0:33:23.969 some there's a lot of wisdom there for for teachers, 0:33:23.970 --> 0:33:24.770 I think as well. 0:33:25.010 --> 0:33:30.970 Yeah. Love it. Well, you point out something I found 0:33:30.970 --> 0:33:36.010 so interesting and that's that for Plato. An idea was 0:33:36.010 --> 0:33:41.130 something that was outside, that existed out in the in 0:33:41.170 --> 0:33:44.610 the universe somewhere. And I have access to it by 0:33:44.610 --> 0:33:49.130 way of the mind. Yeah, but the idea is not 0:33:49.370 --> 0:33:53.330 internal to my mind. And post Descartes, we tend to 0:33:53.370 --> 0:33:57.250 think of an idea as something that's happening in inside 0:33:57.250 --> 0:34:01.450 my in my mind. And maybe after Descartes, an idea, 0:34:01.490 --> 0:34:04.450 something that's actually inside my cranium, you know, in the 0:34:04.570 --> 0:34:06.730 in the neural networks inside my head. 0:34:07.130 --> 0:34:09.610 Um, eventually maybe. Yeah, yeah. Mhm. 0:34:09.850 --> 0:34:16.790 Um, and that's, um. Yeah, you quote Charles Taylor, the 0:34:16.790 --> 0:34:18.550 order of ideas seems to be something that we find 0:34:18.550 --> 0:34:20.390 and something it becomes, something we build. 0:34:20.910 --> 0:34:24.150 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that to me is something that 0:34:24.150 --> 0:34:27.589 is was really helpful to think about. And I'm not 0:34:27.630 --> 0:34:30.590 a not primarily an intellectual historian. I've learned a lot 0:34:30.590 --> 0:34:33.069 from folks like Charles Taylor. And the book I quote 0:34:33.070 --> 0:34:36.230 from in that particular section is his older book, sources 0:34:36.230 --> 0:34:39.150 of the self, where he talks about how did we 0:34:39.190 --> 0:34:41.430 how did we come to have our modern sense of self. 0:34:41.430 --> 0:34:43.469 And he he has a set of chapters on, on 0:34:43.510 --> 0:34:45.910 different thinkers. But in a chapter on René Descartes, who 0:34:45.910 --> 0:34:49.390 I mentioned earlier, um, he makes the point that, uh, 0:34:49.390 --> 0:34:53.989 that for Plato the ideas were like existing in the 0:34:53.989 --> 0:34:56.989 world of ultimate reality. And so knowledge was in some 0:34:56.989 --> 0:35:02.229 ways the confirmation of the mind or participation of, of in, 0:35:02.230 --> 0:35:05.630 in the mind of that that involves participation in the 0:35:05.630 --> 0:35:09.989 world of ideas. Um, Christian thinkers like Augustine and especially Aquinas, 0:35:10.150 --> 0:35:13.100 had a slightly different understanding of ideas as is those 0:35:13.100 --> 0:35:17.100 things that that were like in some ways, um, part 0:35:17.100 --> 0:35:19.339 of God's mind. And so it kind of talks about 0:35:19.340 --> 0:35:22.540 the divine ideas as, um, as ideas that in some 0:35:22.540 --> 0:35:25.620 ways were part of were cognized by God, but also 0:35:26.420 --> 0:35:30.180 the ideas became, some have argued ideas are like exemplar 0:35:30.180 --> 0:35:33.819 causes in the world. And so and so, God, there's 0:35:33.860 --> 0:35:37.500 a divine idea that is something like an idea of 0:35:37.500 --> 0:35:41.420 a particular creature, and that the creation of particular creatures, like, 0:35:41.820 --> 0:35:46.100 flows from those divine ideas. Creation Aquinas always understood creation 0:35:46.100 --> 0:35:49.660 as different from the. The creator is different from the creation. 0:35:49.660 --> 0:35:53.740 There's always that distinction. But yet, uh, creatures can form 0:35:53.739 --> 0:35:57.180 in some ways to exemplar ideas in the mind of God. 0:35:57.500 --> 0:36:01.500 And when Aquinas talked about like reason, like he often 0:36:01.500 --> 0:36:04.420 would talk about God's reason, God's ratio, which is in 0:36:04.420 --> 0:36:07.980 some ways God's providential ordering of the world that participates 0:36:07.980 --> 0:36:11.340 in God's mind. So in in all of those eras 0:36:11.340 --> 0:36:15.960 of human history in the early early church. In the, uh, 0:36:16.320 --> 0:36:20.600 in in the medieval era, to, um, to have ideas 0:36:20.600 --> 0:36:23.600 was in some ways to participate in something real outside 0:36:23.600 --> 0:36:25.879 of yourself and ultimately to find yourself in some ways, 0:36:25.880 --> 0:36:28.799 maybe even united in some way, you know, to the 0:36:28.800 --> 0:36:33.240 mind of God. Uh, so, so ideas are something that you, 0:36:33.239 --> 0:36:36.640 that you discover in the sense of, like I discovered 0:36:36.680 --> 0:36:39.359 a mountain that I didn't realize was near me. You know, 0:36:39.520 --> 0:36:41.480 there are things outside of you that, oh, I'm so 0:36:41.480 --> 0:36:44.319 happy to have, like, come into contact with this thing 0:36:44.360 --> 0:36:49.880 outside of myself. Whereas for Descartes, um, Descartes rejected that 0:36:49.880 --> 0:36:54.040 as a, as a any any idea that, um, that 0:36:54.040 --> 0:36:56.239 the meaning of things or the purposes of things are 0:36:56.239 --> 0:36:58.680 known within the things themselves that direct us to guide 0:36:58.960 --> 0:37:04.680 Descartes uh, substituted that with a representational approach to knowledge where, 0:37:04.719 --> 0:37:08.000 where ideas were things that not only we formed within 0:37:08.000 --> 0:37:12.029 ourselves by our own, like mental activity, but that we 0:37:12.030 --> 0:37:16.230 could then gain certainty of, as in some ways representing 0:37:16.390 --> 0:37:19.190 the world or the reality that's outside of us, which 0:37:19.190 --> 0:37:21.469 he understood as a world of space and extension. So 0:37:21.510 --> 0:37:24.670 Taylor argues that since Descartes, we've tended to see ideas as, 0:37:24.710 --> 0:37:27.310 as like things that are ours. Like, I had an idea. 0:37:27.310 --> 0:37:31.230 This is my idea. Um, it's it's inside me. I 0:37:31.230 --> 0:37:34.190 can patent my idea. I can write about and copyright 0:37:34.230 --> 0:37:37.710 my idea because it's mine. And, uh, and he says 0:37:37.710 --> 0:37:41.790 that's just not the way that, uh, human beings would 0:37:41.830 --> 0:37:46.150 have thought before the enlightenment. And that's that's Taylor's argument. Uh, 0:37:46.150 --> 0:37:48.469 and I find that very interesting. 0:37:48.469 --> 0:37:51.350 So it seems to me there's a connection here between 0:37:51.710 --> 0:37:56.550 the idea of autonomy for Descartes, maybe, and the anybody 0:37:56.550 --> 0:37:59.550 who believes that, that ideas and our sense of reality 0:37:59.550 --> 0:38:05.310 comes from inside the goal will be autonomy. Um, and 0:38:05.710 --> 0:38:08.430 the way you defined agency before as the ability to 0:38:08.469 --> 0:38:13.090 make choices that lead to excellence. Um, yeah. From the 0:38:13.090 --> 0:38:16.330 perspective of mental mental health, what difference does it make 0:38:16.330 --> 0:38:19.050 whether my ideas are come from inside me or whether 0:38:19.050 --> 0:38:21.530 ideas are are something else? 0:38:22.570 --> 0:38:24.890 Yeah. Well, it's a great question. How do we think 0:38:24.890 --> 0:38:27.209 about mental health? I think one thing to notice is 0:38:27.210 --> 0:38:31.730 that we very rarely talk in our mental health culture 0:38:31.730 --> 0:38:34.410 about what mental health itself is. We talk a lot 0:38:34.410 --> 0:38:36.529 about mental illness. We talk about mental health problems, but 0:38:36.530 --> 0:38:38.370 we don't actually talk about mental health. And I think 0:38:38.370 --> 0:38:40.650 there's reasons for that because frankly, it's hard to do. 0:38:40.930 --> 0:38:42.770 And when people do it, you begin to get into 0:38:42.770 --> 0:38:45.130 questions of like, what's what does it mean to live 0:38:45.170 --> 0:38:47.290 a well-lived human life? And that's something that we don't 0:38:47.330 --> 0:38:48.890 often want to talk about. In psychiatry. 0:38:49.050 --> 0:38:51.450 You talk about neurochemical question. That a moral question, isn't it? 0:38:51.489 --> 0:38:54.690 Yeah. Yeah. That's right, I do. That's exactly right. I 0:38:54.730 --> 0:38:57.890 did in the book talk about, uh, ways that when 0:38:57.890 --> 0:39:01.129 mental health is talked about constructively, like what are some 0:39:01.130 --> 0:39:03.969 of the attributes of mental health that are framed and 0:39:03.969 --> 0:39:08.040 I list seven, I call them natural goods of mental health. um, 0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:12.440 and their personal and bodily security, positive regard for oneself 0:39:12.440 --> 0:39:15.680 and one's life, the capacity for a full range of emotion, 0:39:16.320 --> 0:39:21.680 the capacity for finding meaning, um, personal, purposeful and engaging activity, 0:39:22.160 --> 0:39:26.719 the capacity for intimate and fulfilling interpersonal relationships, and the 0:39:26.719 --> 0:39:31.399 ability to respond flexibly and creatively to challenges. And those 0:39:31.400 --> 0:39:33.799 are those are, you know, that's not meant to be 0:39:33.800 --> 0:39:36.160 an absolute comprehensive list. There may be others that people 0:39:36.160 --> 0:39:37.560 would add, but that kind of gets to the core 0:39:37.560 --> 0:39:41.840 of what I think modern psychologists, psychiatrists, theorists, when they 0:39:41.840 --> 0:39:44.960 talk about mental health, what they're getting to, um, and 0:39:44.960 --> 0:39:46.960 it's a good list. I think Christians can affirm that 0:39:46.960 --> 0:39:48.600 all of those are things that we'd want for ourselves, 0:39:48.600 --> 0:39:50.600 we'd want for our children, we'd want for our students 0:39:50.640 --> 0:39:53.279 and our, you know, and our colleagues and our friends, 0:39:53.480 --> 0:39:57.160 our neighbours. Um, I think the problem with with that, though, 0:39:57.200 --> 0:40:00.120 is that is that if if any of those one 0:40:00.120 --> 0:40:03.239 things is pursued for its own sake, if I live 0:40:03.239 --> 0:40:07.940 my whole life just pursuing personal security. Then I become 0:40:08.260 --> 0:40:09.940 that becomes the goal of my life, and I end 0:40:09.980 --> 0:40:12.900 up making decisions that might surprise my security, but at 0:40:12.900 --> 0:40:14.739 the cost of my relationships, or at the cost of 0:40:14.739 --> 0:40:17.739 others who are made more, less secure by my security. 0:40:18.180 --> 0:40:21.339 If we if we spend our lives pursuing intimate and 0:40:21.340 --> 0:40:25.020 fulfilling interpersonal relationships, then great. Like, we can pursue those. 0:40:25.020 --> 0:40:27.020 But if the point is just if we're always asking like, 0:40:27.060 --> 0:40:29.860 is this relationship intimate and fulfilling enough? Like, am I? 0:40:29.860 --> 0:40:32.420 Have I arrived yet? Then we end up. We end 0:40:32.420 --> 0:40:35.300 up pursuing things. We value things too highly and and 0:40:35.300 --> 0:40:38.580 they end up kind of imploding in front of us sometimes. 0:40:38.620 --> 0:40:40.420 And that can be the case with any of those 0:40:40.580 --> 0:40:44.180 goods as good as they are, you know, pursuing, you know, 0:40:44.540 --> 0:40:47.060 meaning like, you can you can live your life pursuing meaning. 0:40:47.060 --> 0:40:49.380 But then what happens when you, like all of a 0:40:49.380 --> 0:40:52.219 sudden get tired of pursuing meaning? So I think this 0:40:52.219 --> 0:40:54.060 is where Aquinas would say, all these are goods, but 0:40:54.060 --> 0:40:56.780 they're they're goods that always point us toward some other 0:40:56.780 --> 0:41:00.700 good that is that we're always left desiring. And and 0:41:00.739 --> 0:41:03.819 he famously says, like, you know, wealth is good, but 0:41:03.820 --> 0:41:05.970 it's not good as an end in itself, you know. 0:41:06.250 --> 0:41:08.770 Honours are good, but it's not good as an end itself. 0:41:08.810 --> 0:41:10.890 Health is good. But if we if we live our 0:41:10.890 --> 0:41:13.810 lives just pursuing health, we're going to end up disappointed 0:41:13.810 --> 0:41:15.730 because the question is like, well, what is health for? 0:41:16.130 --> 0:41:18.930 And when we're and when we're we kind of keep 0:41:18.969 --> 0:41:22.290 pursuing this question of like, what is what is wealth for? 0:41:22.290 --> 0:41:24.810 What are honors for what is health for what is 0:41:24.810 --> 0:41:28.930 mental health for? You know, what is what is excellence for? 0:41:29.650 --> 0:41:31.890 Then we end up finding that what we're ultimately longing 0:41:31.890 --> 0:41:34.770 for is, in some ways, something that can't be satisfied 0:41:34.770 --> 0:41:38.450 by any particular thing, because we have in ourselves this 0:41:38.489 --> 0:41:42.890 kind of natural desire for God that only God can fill. 0:41:43.330 --> 0:41:45.529 And so, so Aquinas would say, as a Christian, and 0:41:45.530 --> 0:41:48.089 I think, you know, Christians can broadly affirm this, that 0:41:48.090 --> 0:41:51.850 our our ultimate fulfillment as human beings is found in 0:41:51.850 --> 0:41:55.730 pursuing and ultimately in being united with the life of God. 0:41:56.250 --> 0:41:59.570 That as before, we only find in, in, in full 0:41:59.570 --> 0:42:01.250 in the life to come. But we can find it 0:42:01.570 --> 0:42:05.430 in part in this life. And so, so that's that's, 0:42:05.430 --> 0:42:08.430 I think, a way to frame what Christians are aiming 0:42:08.430 --> 0:42:12.470 for when we think about, um, the goal of human life, um, 0:42:12.590 --> 0:42:16.350 as in some ways, if God is like perfect in 0:42:16.350 --> 0:42:20.029 God's self, if God is supremely happy, um, then in 0:42:20.030 --> 0:42:24.029 some ways we're invited to participate in, in God's life. Uh, 0:42:24.030 --> 0:42:26.549 so if God is if God is truly blessed, then 0:42:26.550 --> 0:42:29.030 we can find in this life the kind of participation 0:42:29.030 --> 0:42:32.430 in the blessedness that God is and God's blessing. So 0:42:32.430 --> 0:42:34.430 that's why when I when I try to think about 0:42:34.430 --> 0:42:38.910 how to translate aquinas's Latin term beatitude, which would be 0:42:38.950 --> 0:42:43.190 a kind of his interpretation of Aristotle's term eudaimonia, which 0:42:43.190 --> 0:42:46.630 is often translated happiness or flourishing. I think both of 0:42:46.630 --> 0:42:49.990 those are good, but they're not sufficient. So I render 0:42:49.989 --> 0:42:54.590 that term as participation in blessing. We live our lives, um, 0:42:54.710 --> 0:43:00.830 pursuing in some ways, God, we, we, we find by participation, 0:43:00.870 --> 0:43:03.580 like a glimpse of the life of God. That's participation 0:43:03.580 --> 0:43:06.020 in blessing. And that's that's the end and goal of 0:43:06.020 --> 0:43:08.980 our of our lives as human beings. Christians would say, 0:43:09.180 --> 0:43:10.739 and the goods of mental health are goods that we 0:43:10.739 --> 0:43:12.380 can find along the way. You know, I think I 0:43:12.380 --> 0:43:15.300 would say, yeah, I love that our life is not mental. 0:43:15.300 --> 0:43:18.060 Health and blessing and and the assumption that the blessings 0:43:18.060 --> 0:43:23.380 are there and we participate. We don't create the blessings. No. 0:43:23.860 --> 0:43:26.380 We put ourselves in the way of the blessings. We 0:43:26.380 --> 0:43:28.340 put ourselves in a position to to receive. 0:43:28.900 --> 0:43:32.900 And true blessedness. It is in the very life of God. 0:43:33.060 --> 0:43:35.779 And so like we, we just like get to participate 0:43:35.780 --> 0:43:37.540 in it just a little bit, you know, like a 0:43:37.540 --> 0:43:41.060 time when you like, you have a sense of, wow, 0:43:41.100 --> 0:43:44.299 something happened there. I felt myself opening. In some ways, 0:43:44.300 --> 0:43:46.420 it's something that doesn't feel like it just came from me, 0:43:46.420 --> 0:43:51.020 that I'm somehow participating in something broader than me. And 0:43:51.180 --> 0:43:53.700 that's when we begin to feel that and experience that 0:43:53.700 --> 0:43:54.380 in this life. 0:43:54.580 --> 0:43:58.780 Yeah, I know you're a peeper reader, and and, uh, 0:43:59.260 --> 0:44:01.960 I love peepers formulation that to love a thing is 0:44:01.960 --> 0:44:04.919 to agree with God that it that it's good. The 0:44:04.920 --> 0:44:07.480 God who who made this thing and said this is good, 0:44:07.600 --> 0:44:09.600 it's to agree that that feels like a kind of 0:44:09.600 --> 0:44:12.399 participation and blessing to be able to agree with God 0:44:12.400 --> 0:44:15.080 that that, that, that the good things God made are 0:44:15.080 --> 0:44:15.920 indeed good. 0:44:15.960 --> 0:44:20.319 Yes. And Pieper's affirmation that I've said almost every time 0:44:20.320 --> 0:44:21.920 I talk to a group that, you know, when he 0:44:21.920 --> 0:44:26.080 meditates on Genesis 131, uh, and he asks like, what 0:44:26.080 --> 0:44:28.239 does it mean for God to see all that God 0:44:28.239 --> 0:44:29.879 has made and hold? It's very good. And he says 0:44:29.880 --> 0:44:33.520 it's something like approval, not not approval for every state 0:44:33.520 --> 0:44:36.439 of affairs or for everything that happens. But, but, but 0:44:36.440 --> 0:44:39.759 God's approval for the basic existence of the creature that 0:44:39.760 --> 0:44:41.879 for God to look at the creation and say it's 0:44:41.880 --> 0:44:44.480 good is to say it's good that you exist. Yeah, 0:44:44.520 --> 0:44:48.080 it's good that you're in this world. And man, that's 0:44:48.080 --> 0:44:49.960 just something we need to be able to say to 0:44:50.000 --> 0:44:52.000 each other as God says it to us. 0:44:52.280 --> 0:44:56.760 Yeah, Lord, I'm so glad that your book exists. Um, 0:44:56.800 --> 0:44:59.080 I hope a lot of people read it and get 0:44:59.080 --> 0:45:02.110 as much good out of it as I did. And, uh. Well, 0:45:02.710 --> 0:45:04.350 I'm glad you exist, too. Thanks for being. 0:45:04.550 --> 0:45:06.469 Glad that you exist. Jonathan, thank you so much. I 0:45:06.469 --> 0:45:08.509 really enjoyed speaking with you. Thank you. 0:45:10.270 --> 0:45:13.190 The habit Podcast is brought to you by the Rabbit Room, 0:45:13.190 --> 0:45:16.870 where art nourishes community, and community nourishes art. You can 0:45:16.870 --> 0:45:20.270 support their work including this podcast, by becoming a member. 0:45:20.550 --> 0:45:26.390 Visit COVID-19. Special thanks as well to Taylor Leonard for 0:45:26.390 --> 0:45:28.950 letting us use her song diamonds as the theme music 0:45:28.950 --> 0:45:31.950 for The Habit podcast. You can learn more about Taylor 0:45:31.950 --> 0:45:36.870 and follow her work at Taylor Art.com. The Habit Membership 0:45:36.870 --> 0:45:40.710 is a library of resources for writers by me, Jonathan Rogers. 0:45:41.030 --> 0:45:43.469 More importantly, the habit is a hub of community where 0:45:43.510 --> 0:45:46.270 like minded writers gather to discuss their work and give 0:45:46.270 --> 0:45:49.350 each other a little more courage. Find out more at 0:45:49.390 --> 0:45:50.669 The Habit Co.