WEBVTT - Mark Meynell on Art in the Immanent Frame 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:07.720 All our language to describe God and eternity and stuff. 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:10.600 They are imminent words they have to be. They can't 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:14.720 be anything else. And Jesus, by becoming human, becomes imminent 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:18.840 himself in order to communicate to us, because otherwise it 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:21.840 would just explode our brains. We wouldn't know what it meant, 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:24.680 let alone be able to hear it. So the whole 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:28.720 at one level, the entire gospel is metaphor. But many 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:30.360 people hear that and they think, oh, he's saying it's 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:34.199 not true. Quite the reverse. It's more true than you 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:35.560 can possibly imagine. 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:41.680 Welcome to the Habit podcast conversations with writers about writing. 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:46.280 I'm Jonathan Rogers, your host, Marc Mennel, is a freelance 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:49.440 writer and speaker based in the UK. He's the author 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.400 of Life After Life and A Wilderness of Mirrors. He's 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:55.400 a co-host of the triptych podcast, and he's an aficionado 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:58.560 of Cold War spy stories. In short, he's a polymath 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:02.590 and an excellent conversationalist. I recently read the doctoral thesis 0:01:02.590 --> 0:01:05.750 that Mark wrote at Covenant Seminary, and I had some questions. 0:01:05.910 --> 0:01:11.270 I thought you would enjoy listening in. Mark Mendel. I'm 0:01:11.270 --> 0:01:12.950 so happy to have you on The Habit podcast. Thanks 0:01:12.950 --> 0:01:13.630 for being here. 0:01:14.110 --> 0:01:15.910 It's great to be with you. I wish I was 0:01:15.910 --> 0:01:17.630 with you in person, but that. 0:01:17.630 --> 0:01:18.110 Would be. 0:01:18.470 --> 0:01:19.150 Excellent. 0:01:19.190 --> 0:01:19.509 If. 0:01:19.550 --> 0:01:21.470 And beyond the habit budget, probably. 0:01:22.910 --> 0:01:26.470 Well, in, uh, I'll have to check in with human 0:01:26.470 --> 0:01:29.230 resources in the in the fifth floor of the Habit Tower. 0:01:29.470 --> 0:01:30.590 Yeah, yeah. 0:01:31.030 --> 0:01:38.830 I'm sorry. The north tower. Um. Um, okay, so I, 0:01:39.590 --> 0:01:41.630 I'm one of the few people who has read your, uh, 0:01:41.630 --> 0:01:42.710 doctoral thesis. 0:01:43.270 --> 0:01:44.150 That's very kind. 0:01:44.470 --> 0:01:46.509 And there was there were just ideas in there that 0:01:46.510 --> 0:01:49.670 I wanted to talk about. And I guess any listeners 0:01:49.670 --> 0:01:51.270 want to read your doctoral thesis, they can send you 0:01:51.270 --> 0:01:51.790 an email. 0:01:52.510 --> 0:01:54.710 Yeah, I would obviously be delighted. 0:01:56.230 --> 0:02:02.490 So you wrote about, um. well, borrowing from Charles Taylor, 0:02:03.410 --> 0:02:08.730 the idea that, uh, people live in 21st century people 0:02:08.850 --> 0:02:12.170 live within an immanent frame, um, that I'm going to 0:02:12.169 --> 0:02:14.490 get you to explain here in a minute. And that 0:02:14.490 --> 0:02:17.010 artist or art is a way to sort of break 0:02:17.010 --> 0:02:20.770 through that immanent frame and, um, awaken people to the 0:02:20.770 --> 0:02:24.889 possibility or the plausibility of transcendence. 0:02:25.290 --> 0:02:25.889 Mhm. 0:02:26.090 --> 0:02:29.930 Um, so that's kind of a mouthful. 0:02:30.490 --> 0:02:31.450 Yes, it certainly is. 0:02:31.490 --> 0:02:31.890 Yeah. 0:02:32.290 --> 0:02:35.130 So tell me about, uh, let's start with that idea 0:02:35.130 --> 0:02:39.090 of the immanent frame. And, and then we'll get to the, 0:02:39.090 --> 0:02:42.050 the idea of art breaking us out of the immanent frame. 0:02:42.050 --> 0:02:43.810 So tell me about about that idea. 0:02:44.810 --> 0:02:50.010 So Charles Taylor has particularly become known for his work 0:02:50.010 --> 0:02:53.090 on secularism and what it means to live in a 0:02:53.090 --> 0:03:00.280 secular society, a secular context. Um, I think, um, certainly 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.480 I would have been among those and many others, uh, 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:07.040 who before reading Taylor, would have thought that secularism is 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:13.959 basically just kind of atheist, um, anti-God, anti-religion, um, just strip, 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:16.640 you know, life and worldviews and stuff of all the 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:19.919 God stuff. And, um, and we can just get on 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:23.640 with just being human in this world. Um, but his 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:27.800 work has shown that that really isn't enough, that in 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.800 some ways was a phase of secularism. But we've really 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:35.040 moved on from that. And once you have his explanation 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:38.840 pointed out, it makes total sense. So just to to 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:42.200 sort of give the thumbnail sketch of what he's talking about, 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:46.280 he says there are effectively three different stages of secularism. 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:51.760 The first is an exclusively Christian idea, and it comes 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:55.040 from the Middle Ages. And, um, it could only have 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:59.700 arisen in a Christian context. Um, and so he would say, 0:03:59.700 --> 0:04:04.420 what's going on there is in a Christian worldview, you have, um, 0:04:04.460 --> 0:04:11.460 the things of God, the, the heavenly, um, realities and 0:04:11.620 --> 0:04:15.380 the things that those heavenly realities affect on earth as 0:04:15.420 --> 0:04:20.339 being so-called sacred. And then anything that doesn't come under 0:04:20.339 --> 0:04:25.659 that umbrella, just like daily living, you know, going shopping, um, 0:04:25.700 --> 0:04:30.300 milking your cow, whatever it is that is secular, that is, um, 0:04:30.300 --> 0:04:32.820 it literally comes from a Latin word meaning the age, 0:04:32.820 --> 0:04:36.500 the period, the era. So to be secular is to 0:04:36.500 --> 0:04:40.620 be focused on this era as opposed to the age 0:04:40.620 --> 0:04:44.620 to come, which is the next one, the so-called sacred. 0:04:44.620 --> 0:04:47.339 And in the Middle Ages you get this sort of 0:04:47.380 --> 0:04:50.340 working its way out in sort of European Catholicism in 0:04:50.339 --> 0:04:54.220 all kinds of ways. But for example, if you're a priest, 0:04:54.330 --> 0:04:59.170 you're part of the sacred realm. And in European countries 0:04:59.170 --> 0:05:02.489 all over, they would have separate courts, a court system, 0:05:02.490 --> 0:05:07.410 a legal system for priests. And then you would have the, the, 0:05:07.529 --> 0:05:11.210 the world, the secular part of life in a completely 0:05:11.210 --> 0:05:14.250 different bracket. And there wasn't really overlap. And when you 0:05:14.250 --> 0:05:16.690 became a priest, you moved from one to the other. 0:05:17.250 --> 0:05:18.650 But the is is the difference. 0:05:18.650 --> 0:05:21.010 Between the contemplative life and the active life. Is that 0:05:21.050 --> 0:05:23.290 A does that map on to that, or is that. 0:05:23.330 --> 0:05:27.489 Yes, that certainly would that totally would. Um, and so 0:05:27.529 --> 0:05:31.330 basically it's within a Christian framework. And it doesn't mean 0:05:31.330 --> 0:05:33.849 anything to do with saying, I don't believe in God. 0:05:33.850 --> 0:05:37.370 It's just saying, yeah, God might be over. Lord, over 0:05:37.370 --> 0:05:40.730 all of these things. But actually, he's really interested in 0:05:40.770 --> 0:05:41.810 the sacred stuff. 0:05:41.810 --> 0:05:42.170 Okay. 0:05:42.730 --> 0:05:47.010 Now the Reformation, you know, really attacked that and in 0:05:47.010 --> 0:05:51.250 some quarters put that to bed. Um, and Protestantism really 0:05:51.250 --> 0:05:57.200 worked hard to to break that barrier down. But it 0:05:57.200 --> 0:06:00.160 also set in motion a whole set of processes that 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:05.960 actually arguably led to, um, what Taylor would call secularism to. Now, 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.400 this is what we would traditionally think of secularism. This 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:16.600 is the kind of consequences of, um, enlightenment philosophy of Darwin, Freud, um, 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:21.440 and all of these explanations for reality in the world 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.120 that don't need God. We can, you know, we can 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:27.479 put God outside, um, the conversation. We don't need to 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:32.280 do that. And actually, everything is explicable and meaningful without God. 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:37.000 So that's secular too. And that would be represented. I 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:40.599 guess the last gasp of that would be the so-called 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:44.719 Four Horsemen of New Atheism. So the Richard Dawkins, Sam 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:48.640 Harris's of this world, um, but they're the last gasp 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:54.099 of it. And what Taylor really Explain so well. Is 0:06:54.100 --> 0:06:58.659 that actually in terms of how people live their lives 0:06:58.980 --> 0:07:01.300 on a day to day basis, what they're conscious of, 0:07:01.300 --> 0:07:06.060 what they're thinking about? That's not reality. Um, very, very 0:07:06.060 --> 0:07:11.620 few people are thoroughgoing, consistent new atheists. In fact, it's 0:07:11.620 --> 0:07:14.660 arguable that even the new atheists aren't really that atheist 0:07:14.660 --> 0:07:17.619 when it comes to it. Yeah. So, you know, Richard 0:07:17.620 --> 0:07:21.580 Dawkins will still like going to carol services at Christmas. Well, okay. 0:07:21.580 --> 0:07:23.820 And he knows that's inconsistent. But he just he quite 0:07:23.820 --> 0:07:25.180 likes it. Well fair enough. 0:07:25.540 --> 0:07:25.940 Yeah. 0:07:26.260 --> 0:07:29.700 So what is the third stage. And um, this is 0:07:29.940 --> 0:07:34.580 actually the the innovation that Taylor has made. And it's 0:07:34.580 --> 0:07:39.300 basically saying we live in a world without God. Um, 0:07:39.340 --> 0:07:41.820 you know, every our education in the West is telling 0:07:41.820 --> 0:07:45.220 us this. Um, society is telling us this. So we 0:07:45.220 --> 0:07:48.100 talk about issues that are in the public square that 0:07:48.100 --> 0:07:51.810 you can debate in Congress or in Parliament or in 0:07:51.810 --> 0:07:57.650 a philosophy lecture. Um, but then the God stuff that's 0:07:58.370 --> 0:08:02.970 sort of, um, resigned, um, to, to issues of opinion, 0:08:02.970 --> 0:08:06.050 personal belief and stuff. And that's, that's nice for you, 0:08:06.530 --> 0:08:09.410 but I, you know, I don't share that view. Blah, 0:08:09.410 --> 0:08:12.890 blah blah. And you just have to keep it private. Yeah. Um, 0:08:13.170 --> 0:08:16.650 but and this is the point, Taylor is saying there 0:08:16.650 --> 0:08:20.290 are all kinds of things in life and experience that 0:08:20.330 --> 0:08:23.690 kind of sort of prick the balloon. They kind of 0:08:24.010 --> 0:08:27.690 shake you out of that sort of confidence of a 0:08:27.770 --> 0:08:30.570 godless environment and say, every now and then there are 0:08:30.570 --> 0:08:34.130 things that take you beyond yourself, and you're thinking like, 0:08:34.130 --> 0:08:38.410 what's that now? It may be that that feeling is, 0:08:38.570 --> 0:08:44.610 you know, instantaneously gone. Um, but something's going on. And 0:08:44.610 --> 0:08:49.630 he would say that we are, um, haunted Ted by 0:08:49.630 --> 0:08:53.790 the transcendent. In other words, we live in. Imagine living 0:08:53.790 --> 0:08:57.110 in a closed house. All the windows and doors are 0:08:57.429 --> 0:09:00.510 sealed shut, so your existence is entirely bound by the 0:09:00.510 --> 0:09:01.750 four walls and roof. 0:09:02.190 --> 0:09:02.590 Okay. 0:09:03.070 --> 0:09:07.270 But every now and then you hear something from outside, 0:09:07.510 --> 0:09:12.350 or the ground shakes. Maybe there's an earthquake or. Or whatever. 0:09:12.390 --> 0:09:15.590 Someone slips something through the letterbox, and it's a beautiful 0:09:15.590 --> 0:09:18.390 picture or whatever it is, and you think, oh, there's 0:09:18.390 --> 0:09:21.630 something out there. Yeah, but you can't be sure about it. 0:09:21.630 --> 0:09:25.829 These little hints, and they're saying, they're suggesting to us 0:09:26.510 --> 0:09:29.069 there's much more to life than what we can see 0:09:29.070 --> 0:09:29.710 or feel. 0:09:30.230 --> 0:09:31.110 Yeah. Okay. 0:09:31.429 --> 0:09:38.830 So secularity three is the idea that the. You said 0:09:40.510 --> 0:09:46.190 transcendence questions of what is not immanent. That is right 0:09:46.190 --> 0:09:53.500 here with us. detected by the senses. I guess it's 0:09:53.500 --> 0:09:55.780 all a matter of opinion. It's one option among many. 0:09:56.260 --> 0:09:56.580 Right. 0:09:56.620 --> 0:10:05.860 Options. Um. And. The point, if I understand correctly, is that, uh, 0:10:06.580 --> 0:10:10.580 whether you are a theist or not, a theist, you 0:10:10.580 --> 0:10:14.220 still live in the immanent frame. If if you are 0:10:14.460 --> 0:10:17.500 in this era of secularity three. 0:10:18.220 --> 0:10:18.820 Yes. 0:10:19.580 --> 0:10:24.820 Um, but and here's the new thing, um, in contrast to, 0:10:24.860 --> 0:10:29.179 to say in the US, UK in the 50s, 60s, 0:10:30.300 --> 0:10:33.900 society was much more monochrome. Um, and I use that 0:10:33.900 --> 0:10:40.940 literally as well as metaphorically. But there wasn't the exposure 0:10:41.460 --> 0:10:48.120 to different ideas, different belief systems, different worldviews. Views. Um. Uh. 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:52.840 Taylor has the rather sort of grandiose phrase of social imaginaries. 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:54.280 In other words, what he's trying to do is go 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:58.920 beyond a worldview because a worldview is too cerebral. What 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:01.960 we're talking about is you live your life with this 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:08.680 sense of reality, and today we are just bombarded by 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:12.520 literally thousands of different ways. And the internet has, you know, 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:17.360 magnified that. And so nobody could possibly get to the 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:20.439 point where saying, well, I've tested everything, I've tried everything out, 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:22.800 and now I'm absolutely certain I'm on the right track. 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:25.800 It's impossible. Nobody can do that. Not even the most 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:30.400 hard headed Christian. Yeah, but you have to accept the 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:32.880 provisionality of it because there's so much out there. And 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:36.760 that's what he talks about, being cross pressured. Every day 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:39.440 we're going to meet somebody with a completely different way 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:41.040 of thinking about life from us. 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:46.310 Yeah. Okay. And so the immanent frame is I'm living 0:11:46.309 --> 0:11:47.590 in this sealed house. 0:11:47.910 --> 0:11:48.350 Mhm. 0:11:49.110 --> 0:11:54.670 Um. Imminent. I am, I am a an ent so. 0:11:54.710 --> 0:11:55.550 Yes that's it. 0:11:55.710 --> 0:11:58.589 Right. Uh, as distinct from the transcendent. 0:11:59.350 --> 0:12:02.429 That's right. And so there have been maybe hints that 0:12:02.429 --> 0:12:04.630 there is a reality outside the front door. But I 0:12:04.630 --> 0:12:08.790 can't get there. I can't see it, I can't experience it. 0:12:08.790 --> 0:12:11.390 But every now and then, this is the thing. There 0:12:11.390 --> 0:12:15.429 are hints that it might exist. Um, and I and 0:12:15.429 --> 0:12:18.309 I don't know how to to get there. It's it 0:12:18.309 --> 0:12:20.230 might be out there. It might not. And there are 0:12:20.230 --> 0:12:22.350 plenty of people inside the house telling me there's nothing 0:12:22.350 --> 0:12:24.110 to think about there. It's a nonsense. 0:12:24.550 --> 0:12:24.949 Yeah. 0:12:24.990 --> 0:12:25.390 Yeah. 0:12:25.870 --> 0:12:30.190 And so those little hints of transcendence, I guess this 0:12:30.190 --> 0:12:33.790 is directly related to, uh, the idea of zinc. If 0:12:33.790 --> 0:12:35.030 I'm saying that word. Right. 0:12:35.070 --> 0:12:35.390 Mhm. 0:12:35.429 --> 0:12:39.069 How do you say that word? Okay. All right. 0:12:39.309 --> 0:12:41.510 Well I'm not German speaker either, so who knows. 0:12:42.070 --> 0:12:44.660 Uh, but the idea that there is an ache and 0:12:44.660 --> 0:12:49.940 a longing. Um, you know, as Lewis said, uh, we 0:12:49.940 --> 0:12:52.100 have this desire that nothing on earth can fulfill that 0:12:52.100 --> 0:12:54.980 suggests that maybe that we're made for something besides. 0:12:55.460 --> 0:12:56.260 Right? Earth. 0:12:56.540 --> 0:13:01.939 Um, and that longing, that desire is, um, is more 0:13:03.020 --> 0:13:10.020 pleasurable even than having a desire, an earthly desire fulfilled. Um. 0:13:12.300 --> 0:13:12.740 And yet. 0:13:12.940 --> 0:13:13.420 In other words. 0:13:13.420 --> 0:13:17.260 We were made to to to venture outside the house. 0:13:17.860 --> 0:13:18.220 Uh. 0:13:18.820 --> 0:13:20.660 We weren't meant to be cooped up. 0:13:21.059 --> 0:13:21.459 Aha. 0:13:21.860 --> 0:13:26.380 Yeah. That's good. Okay. And so you are suggesting, are 0:13:26.420 --> 0:13:31.300 you make the case in your doctoral thesis that you, 0:13:31.340 --> 0:13:37.860 that art and artists have a what a particular role 0:13:37.860 --> 0:13:47.000 a particular um, ability uh to. Conjure up that transcendence. 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:48.720 So. 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:55.200 Yes. Um, you know, being most generalized terms. Um, one 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.600 of the things that needs to happen because basically, before 0:13:59.960 --> 0:14:04.040 pluck a date out of the air before 1500, the 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.160 idea that there was a god, that there was a 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.200 life after life, that there was heaven, that God might 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:12.360 come to earth as a man in Christ. All of 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.120 these things perfectly acceptable. You wouldn't. No one would blink 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:19.240 at them. Um, if you said there wasn't a God, 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:20.880 they would think you were mad. 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:21.640 Yeah. 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:27.240 Um, because it was as plausible as normal as gravity, 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:32.080 you know, it just wasn't an issue. Nobody really questioned it. Um, 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:33.720 and that's one of the things we can't quite get 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:37.360 our heads around. You know, pre the modern age. Um, 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:41.040 but it wasn't an issue, so nobody had any trouble 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:45.350 ball with the idea of the beyond, even though they 0:14:45.350 --> 0:14:48.990 knew full well that they couldn't imagine and describe it 0:14:48.990 --> 0:14:54.590 as such. But they had all kinds of means at 0:14:54.590 --> 0:14:58.430 their disposal for pointing ahead to it, for alluding to it. 0:14:59.510 --> 0:15:02.030 And you think of frescoes, you know, some of the 0:15:02.070 --> 0:15:07.390 Italian Renaissance frescoes, um, say Giotto, um, he he painted 0:15:07.390 --> 0:15:10.670 an amazing series of the life of Saint Francis, and 0:15:10.670 --> 0:15:12.270 then he did another one of the life of the 0:15:12.270 --> 0:15:15.870 Virgin Mary. And there's one I can't remember. I think 0:15:15.870 --> 0:15:22.750 it's in the Mary, um, uh, story. Um, and there's 0:15:22.750 --> 0:15:26.230 a point where, um, in this telling of the story, 0:15:26.230 --> 0:15:29.230 it's not a biblical idea, but Mary's mother has a 0:15:29.230 --> 0:15:31.350 visitation from an angel saying that she's going to give 0:15:31.390 --> 0:15:34.150 birth to to her. Well, you know, who knows where 0:15:34.150 --> 0:15:39.350 that comes from? But the way Giotto depicts it is that, um, 0:15:39.390 --> 0:15:42.810 you have Mary's mother in her room. And then there's 0:15:42.810 --> 0:15:46.330 a window in the wall and there's an angel poking 0:15:46.330 --> 0:15:49.730 through the window. But, um, on the other side of 0:15:49.730 --> 0:15:52.930 the window, and he's got all his, uh, perspectives and 0:15:52.930 --> 0:15:55.050 everything lined up. But on the other side of the window, 0:15:55.050 --> 0:15:57.330 there are no legs for this angel. So it's like 0:15:58.090 --> 0:16:02.250 the window itself is a kind of portal from another dimension. 0:16:02.690 --> 0:16:04.970 So he's deliberately left off the legs. It's not because 0:16:04.970 --> 0:16:08.290 he's bad. It's actually because he's brilliant. And this angel 0:16:08.290 --> 0:16:10.090 is sort of poking his head into the house. It's 0:16:10.090 --> 0:16:12.610 kind of comic in a way, and saying hello. And 0:16:12.610 --> 0:16:15.090 what what Johto is trying to do there is to say, look, 0:16:15.130 --> 0:16:19.210 here is a point at which the beyond the eternal, 0:16:19.250 --> 0:16:24.770 the transcendent has invaded the imminent, invaded our world to 0:16:24.810 --> 0:16:28.290 bring a message from there or whatever. So there's just 0:16:28.290 --> 0:16:32.850 a very simple sort of visual illustration of that point. Um, 0:16:32.930 --> 0:16:34.890 but they would have seen that kind of thing happening 0:16:34.890 --> 0:16:39.880 all the time, even within, say, the poetry of pagan 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:44.320 poets from pre-Christian times. Um, whether it's Homer or Virgil, 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:46.240 I think you know what's Christian about that? Well, they 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:50.080 would say this is part of this creative world that 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:53.120 God has made and that's a gift of God, blah, blah, blah. 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:58.240 So all these different things have ways, have their internal 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:01.320 language and logic, if you like, for communicating things that 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:06.560 normal language and normal experience don't know about, and you 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:10.639 learn the conventions, you learn if you like the code. Yeah. 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:12.320 And they're pointing beyond. 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:19.920 And so is the role of the artist different in 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:25.960 secularity three our current time than it was in, say, 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:27.159 the era of Giotto? 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:34.280 Um, um, sorry. Just repeat that as in contrast to 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:36.320 which to the secular two or. 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:37.159 Well, I'm. 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:40.910 Saying to, to, to secular one or, you know, the, 0:17:40.910 --> 0:17:46.550 the era in the era when we couldn't imagine a 0:17:46.910 --> 0:17:51.429 world that wasn't haunted. Did they did the role of 0:17:51.430 --> 0:17:53.750 the artist? Was that different than the role of an 0:17:53.750 --> 0:17:54.510 artist now? 0:17:55.550 --> 0:18:01.230 Um, I think maybe we need to distinguish between what 0:18:01.270 --> 0:18:04.870 artists have always done, which is basically in some ways 0:18:04.910 --> 0:18:07.230 as sub creators to create something out of nothing. 0:18:07.390 --> 0:18:07.910 Mhm. 0:18:08.270 --> 0:18:15.990 Um, whatever that might be, whether it's musical, um, verbal, visual, whatever. Um, 0:18:17.390 --> 0:18:19.590 and they've always done that and they'll carry on doing 0:18:19.590 --> 0:18:23.869 that as opposed to the agenda that people give them. 0:18:23.869 --> 0:18:26.310 And this is where I think it gets tricky. So 0:18:26.310 --> 0:18:28.629 if people say, well, you've got to reach this generation 0:18:28.630 --> 0:18:31.510 because they've gone secular or whatever, we need artists to 0:18:31.510 --> 0:18:34.790 do X, Y, and Z. That's when we get into 0:18:34.790 --> 0:18:38.850 hot water, because I think that's when we are in 0:18:38.850 --> 0:18:42.690 danger of pulling what artists have always done, pulling artists 0:18:42.730 --> 0:18:45.810 away from what they've always done and what they're they're 0:18:45.810 --> 0:18:51.530 good at. But I do think that at their best, 0:18:51.970 --> 0:18:58.690 they have a unique opportunity, sort of incidentally, to connect 0:18:58.690 --> 0:19:01.889 with people today because so often they are producing things, 0:19:01.890 --> 0:19:06.050 whether they realize it or not, that are themselves haunted 0:19:06.050 --> 0:19:09.489 and that do point beyond even the simple fact that, 0:19:09.530 --> 0:19:14.290 you know, you can read a poem written 338 years ago, whatever, 0:19:15.090 --> 0:19:18.410 and you can read it and it's like, that's me today. 0:19:19.570 --> 0:19:22.090 And you think, I've never met this guy? Perhaps he 0:19:22.090 --> 0:19:25.889 was written in a different language. Maybe their, you know, 0:19:25.930 --> 0:19:30.530 their life experience is completely different. And yet you think, wow, 0:19:30.530 --> 0:19:33.210 that's me. Now, maybe I've misunderstood it and I need 0:19:33.210 --> 0:19:36.240 to to check my interpretations and blah blah blah. But 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.800 there's a connection there that is very hard to explain. 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:42.960 If it's not something bigger than you know, the sum 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:44.280 is bigger than its parts. 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:45.000 Yeah. 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:47.600 So are you suggesting then, that the role of the 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:50.240 artist is not different now than it was? 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:51.359 I think so. 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:52.439 In Giotto's time? 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:56.480 I think so. I mean, I would say, what do 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.240 artists what do you need to be a great artist? Well, 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:01.600 quite apart from all the technical skills and so on, 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:05.160 I think it boils down to at least two things. 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:09.119 One is to be able to see better than everyone 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:14.800 around you. And I use sight there, as you know, maybe, 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:18.320 maybe perceive as better. It covers all the senses, the 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:22.360 awareness to, to, to, to see better than everybody else 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:27.479 at a particular moment. So you're noticing stuff. Um, but that's, 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:29.800 that's only half the battle because lots of people could 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:31.719 be really good at noticing stuff, but they might be 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:36.540 completely inarticulate, Or they might be the only one of 0:20:36.540 --> 0:20:39.140 only four people who speak their particular language. So, you know, 0:20:39.180 --> 0:20:41.219 three other people benefit, but nobody else does. 0:20:41.580 --> 0:20:41.939 Yeah. 0:20:42.300 --> 0:20:43.740 Or they. 0:20:43.780 --> 0:20:44.180 You mean like. 0:20:44.380 --> 0:20:46.379 I'm sorry? Do you mean like a scientist who is 0:20:46.380 --> 0:20:49.580 really good at noticing but speaks in a scientific language. 0:20:49.619 --> 0:20:49.780 Who. 0:20:49.780 --> 0:20:51.740 Just speaks in equations? Yeah. That's weird. I mean, I 0:20:51.740 --> 0:20:56.100 don't know what that means. Um, but, um, but what 0:20:56.100 --> 0:20:59.540 you need is, um, an ability to communicate it. Now, 0:21:00.220 --> 0:21:03.419 that does not mean with words, necessarily. In fact, a 0:21:03.420 --> 0:21:06.660 lot of creative people are not able to do that 0:21:06.660 --> 0:21:09.460 in words, and that's fine if they've got an outlet 0:21:09.460 --> 0:21:13.900 somewhere else. So it might be, um, an abstract painting, 0:21:13.900 --> 0:21:16.460 Mark Rothko or something. You think, whoa, what's he saying there? 0:21:16.460 --> 0:21:18.260 And he wouldn't necessarily be able to tell you, but 0:21:18.300 --> 0:21:20.379 he's painted it. That's what he's told you. 0:21:20.460 --> 0:21:21.060 Mhm. 0:21:21.100 --> 0:21:25.220 Or a symphony that lasts 73 minutes of just solid, 0:21:25.660 --> 0:21:29.700 pure noise. That's as abstract as it can possibly be, 0:21:29.740 --> 0:21:33.250 you know, 76 minutes of pure music. Or it could 0:21:33.250 --> 0:21:37.570 be a novel that actually hits the zeitgeist. You name it. 0:21:38.410 --> 0:21:41.570 So it's the combination of those two things. And now 0:21:41.570 --> 0:21:44.290 that's why I think the church really needs artists, because 0:21:44.290 --> 0:21:47.250 we are not very good at noticing things are happening 0:21:47.250 --> 0:21:50.810 around us, and they're impacting on us all the time. 0:21:50.810 --> 0:21:55.850 But it often takes the artist to notice either its 0:21:55.850 --> 0:21:59.250 negative effects or just say the fact of it. They 0:21:59.250 --> 0:22:02.129 could be like the canary in the mine, and they say, 0:22:02.130 --> 0:22:04.330 there's something on here. I don't know what it is. 0:22:04.330 --> 0:22:07.490 I don't, I, I don't know what to do about it, 0:22:07.490 --> 0:22:10.490 but it's happening. I can breathe it in. And then 0:22:10.490 --> 0:22:12.530 other people are alerted to take action when they don't 0:22:12.530 --> 0:22:18.609 necessarily know what to do. But I certainly think that happens. 0:22:18.609 --> 0:22:21.889 I mean, you look at 20th century art. I mean, 0:22:21.930 --> 0:22:26.250 I'm reading. It's fascinating. Um, you know, al Qaeda, the 0:22:27.010 --> 0:22:34.240 the Islamist terrorist group, they, absolutely swept up stuff that 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:41.600 was anti-Western and and saw the, the corruption and, um, 0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:46.360 you know, the hedonism of, of Western society. And, you know, 0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:50.320 they were not wrong. So I read somewhere that, um, 0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:53.680 you know, in the caves of Afghanistan. And then when 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:57.080 he was finally caught and killed in, in Pakistan, they 0:22:57.080 --> 0:22:59.359 found a copy of T.S. Eliot's Wasteland there. 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:00.040 Mm. 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:05.359 Because Eliot was a canary in the mine, he's saying 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:08.919 something really is not right here. We are living in 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:12.520 this wasteland. But isn't that extraordinary? Now, the bin laden 0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:16.920 solution is not one that is remotely, uh, positive. But, 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:20.480 you know, it's interesting he picks up on that. 0:23:21.160 --> 0:23:22.240 Yeah. Yeah. 0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:25.880 Uh, a phrase I'm surprised hasn't come up yet is 0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:29.560 the buffered self. Um, which I guess is just another 0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:34.780 way of saying living in the immanent frame. Um. Is that. 0:23:34.820 --> 0:23:36.260 Is that fair? Is that a fair? 0:23:36.619 --> 0:23:41.380 It's it's more it's it's more a kind of defensiveness 0:23:41.740 --> 0:23:45.420 about it. So, um, you're in the immanent frame. You're 0:23:45.420 --> 0:23:52.420 living inside this sealed house, and basically you resist any 0:23:52.420 --> 0:23:56.379 of those hauntings or hints. Okay, so you hear, I 0:23:56.380 --> 0:24:00.100 don't know whether it's, um, uh, you know, um, a 0:24:00.180 --> 0:24:03.340 nightjar singing outside, and then you just cover your ears 0:24:03.340 --> 0:24:05.540 and go, la la la la la, and you refuse, 0:24:05.540 --> 0:24:08.580 or someone slides something in the letterbox, a beautiful picture. 0:24:08.580 --> 0:24:09.820 You just rip it up, say, I don't want to 0:24:09.820 --> 0:24:13.139 deal with that. So it's it's more than just being. 0:24:13.180 --> 0:24:16.139 It's a, it's a kind of resistance to it to 0:24:16.140 --> 0:24:17.660 say I'm not going to deal with that. 0:24:17.700 --> 0:24:18.180 Okay. 0:24:18.540 --> 0:24:24.260 And you suggest that beauty can sneak past that buffering. 0:24:24.859 --> 0:24:25.300 Because. 0:24:25.300 --> 0:24:26.700 It catches you unawares. 0:24:26.859 --> 0:24:27.379 Mhm. 0:24:27.420 --> 0:24:30.530 Um, and and, you know, it might come in a 0:24:30.570 --> 0:24:35.129 sort of hit TV show. Um, it might, you know, 0:24:35.170 --> 0:24:37.010 I can't remember what it was, but there was an 0:24:37.010 --> 0:24:39.410 episode of House, you know, with Hugh Laurie as the 0:24:39.770 --> 0:24:44.090 sort of, um, Sherlock Holmes type doctor, hence his name. 0:24:44.130 --> 0:24:49.490 Get it? Um, and, um, very irascible and unpleasant, but 0:24:49.490 --> 0:24:53.570 there are 1 or 2 episodes where, uh, almost despite 0:24:53.570 --> 0:24:58.490 him and despite the kind of secular world of the show, 0:24:59.290 --> 0:25:02.170 there were things that actually just pushed against that. And 0:25:02.170 --> 0:25:06.730 they were often to do with end of life moments and, 0:25:07.330 --> 0:25:09.169 and stuff, and they were dealing with sort of the 0:25:09.170 --> 0:25:12.410 big questions often in the show, and you come away thinking, wow, 0:25:12.410 --> 0:25:15.290 that was really moving. And they weren't saying what you 0:25:15.290 --> 0:25:18.370 might have expected them to say. And, and, you know, 0:25:18.410 --> 0:25:21.050 so somebody might watch that kind of thing because it 0:25:21.090 --> 0:25:24.490 completely fits with their worldview, very sort of negative view 0:25:24.490 --> 0:25:29.310 of human nature. But then suddenly bang! Catches you unawares. 0:25:29.310 --> 0:25:31.750 And you think, oh, I haven't thought about that before. 0:25:32.510 --> 0:25:32.869 Hmm. 0:25:33.790 --> 0:25:37.510 Uh. I love that idea that that beauty is unexpected. Surprises. 0:25:37.510 --> 0:25:44.710 You blindside you. Um, the between beauty, truth, and goodness. 0:25:45.190 --> 0:25:48.790 You know, truth and goodness are something that I have 0:25:48.790 --> 0:25:54.429 some responsibility to, you know, to align myself with truth 0:25:54.430 --> 0:26:00.189 to to be good. But beauty is something that comes 0:26:00.190 --> 0:26:04.830 to me. I can put myself in the path of beauty. Certainly. Um, 0:26:04.830 --> 0:26:09.270 but I think there's, there is a a passivity or 0:26:10.030 --> 0:26:15.669 beauty requires a receptiveness that is maybe different. I'm curious 0:26:15.670 --> 0:26:18.590 to know what you think about this is is does 0:26:18.630 --> 0:26:23.909 beauty require a receptiveness that is different from truth and goodness? 0:26:24.670 --> 0:26:24.950 Mm. 0:26:28.060 --> 0:26:31.140 It's interesting. Um, when I was sort of finishing off 0:26:31.140 --> 0:26:33.139 the thesis and, you know, I wanted to give it 0:26:33.140 --> 0:26:38.340 a trendy name, um, uh, just for my own, sort 0:26:38.340 --> 0:26:42.060 of the little pleasures of life. Anyway, um, and, um, 0:26:43.020 --> 0:26:46.139 I was really stuck for ages to, what, to call it. 0:26:46.619 --> 0:26:51.980 And then, um, it was a quotation from Chesterton's Orthodoxy, 0:26:52.020 --> 0:26:54.180 which is just a wonderful book. I know so many 0:26:54.180 --> 0:26:59.300 people whose lives have been, you know, transformed by that book. Um, 0:26:59.340 --> 0:27:01.540 and it's just a little phrase. I completely forgotten all 0:27:01.540 --> 0:27:04.380 about it. Um, but it was quoted in another book 0:27:04.380 --> 0:27:08.179 I was looking at, and he was in this section 0:27:08.220 --> 0:27:11.780 advocating for the arts, um, as being essential to life, 0:27:11.780 --> 0:27:15.939 not a kind of luxury, but really necessary. And the 0:27:15.940 --> 0:27:22.060 phrase was, um, a wild whisper from something originally wise. 0:27:22.859 --> 0:27:27.760 And I thought, ah, Eureka! That's the one. Um, now, 0:27:27.760 --> 0:27:30.479 what I love about it is it works at different points. 0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:34.840 So it's a wild whisper. So most of the time, 0:27:34.840 --> 0:27:41.880 if you're full of noise and activity, um, and you 0:27:41.880 --> 0:27:46.520 are filling your life with you, name it, then you 0:27:46.520 --> 0:27:47.960 don't hear the whispers. 0:27:48.400 --> 0:27:48.840 Mhm. 0:27:49.800 --> 0:27:55.240 It's wild because you can't control it. You can't. You 0:27:55.320 --> 0:27:57.400 may be able to divert it a little bit, but 0:27:57.400 --> 0:28:00.679 it does what it does. It's, it's akin to Jesus 0:28:00.680 --> 0:28:02.919 talking about the Holy Spirit. Like being like a wind. 0:28:02.920 --> 0:28:04.680 You see the effects of the wind, but you can't 0:28:04.680 --> 0:28:05.440 see the wind. 0:28:05.880 --> 0:28:06.280 Yeah. 0:28:06.840 --> 0:28:10.960 Um, but it's it's a whisper of something originally wise. 0:28:10.960 --> 0:28:13.960 He means original in that sense, as to do with 0:28:13.960 --> 0:28:19.520 our origins. It's a foundational. It's it's the DNA of 0:28:19.520 --> 0:28:24.750 the cosmos that has wisdom Some absolutely ingrained. In fact, 0:28:24.750 --> 0:28:29.470 the foundations of the cosmos are divine wisdom. And when 0:28:29.470 --> 0:28:36.030 something beautiful crosses your path, which you didn't invite or control, 0:28:36.030 --> 0:28:37.150 it's wild. 0:28:37.670 --> 0:28:38.070 Yeah. 0:28:38.510 --> 0:28:43.390 It taps into something from the very origins of reality. 0:28:44.030 --> 0:28:44.430 Yeah. 0:28:44.550 --> 0:28:47.550 And therefore is wise. So it says so much in 0:28:47.550 --> 0:28:49.750 just those classic chestertonian. 0:28:50.190 --> 0:28:50.670 Yeah. 0:28:50.830 --> 0:28:56.310 Phrase. It just says so much and says this takes 0:28:56.310 --> 0:28:57.830 you into her bigger world. 0:28:58.270 --> 0:28:58.630 Yeah. 0:28:58.790 --> 0:29:04.110 Um, and and so I love that that kind of 0:29:04.110 --> 0:29:07.870 formulation because it, it says touches on so many elements 0:29:07.870 --> 0:29:12.150 of what happens when you're stopped in your tracks by something. 0:29:12.910 --> 0:29:13.270 Yeah. 0:29:13.310 --> 0:29:16.350 Um, a song on the radio or whatever, you know, 0:29:16.390 --> 0:29:17.430 you name it, you know? 0:29:17.470 --> 0:29:17.710 Yeah. 0:29:18.070 --> 0:29:21.390 Well, you mentioned that that a the the picture can 0:29:21.390 --> 0:29:23.420 be slipped through the the mail slot and you can 0:29:23.420 --> 0:29:29.820 rip it up, but eventually you feel like. I feel 0:29:29.820 --> 0:29:32.660 like eventually something, something makes it through. There's that scene in, 0:29:32.660 --> 0:29:36.060 I think it's Harry Potter where a letter comes in 0:29:37.100 --> 0:29:40.220 and I think maybe the the step parents or the 0:29:40.220 --> 0:29:41.180 foster parents. 0:29:41.460 --> 0:29:41.900 Yeah, the. 0:29:41.900 --> 0:29:42.460 Dursleys. 0:29:42.660 --> 0:29:43.300 Tear it up. 0:29:43.420 --> 0:29:45.780 And then finally, there are so many envelopes coming through 0:29:45.780 --> 0:29:47.820 the door that they can't they can't tear it up. 0:29:47.860 --> 0:29:49.860 Yes. And that's actually. 0:29:49.940 --> 0:29:54.020 That's a kind of picture of what is originally wise. 0:29:54.380 --> 0:29:54.540 Yeah. 0:29:54.580 --> 0:29:58.660 It's about undeniable reality. 0:29:59.020 --> 0:29:59.460 Yeah. 0:29:59.500 --> 0:30:03.820 And that's what's scary about a lot of contemporary Western politics, 0:30:04.580 --> 0:30:07.820 because it seems to be built on magical thinking. 0:30:08.260 --> 0:30:08.620 Mhm. 0:30:08.860 --> 0:30:11.620 Because I want X to be true. Therefore it is true. 0:30:11.620 --> 0:30:13.420 And I'm going to make policies on the basis that 0:30:13.420 --> 0:30:16.380 x is true. But the thing is x is not true. 0:30:17.020 --> 0:30:18.100 Yeah. Yeah. 0:30:18.140 --> 0:30:19.860 Um, without getting into specifics. 0:30:19.900 --> 0:30:20.140 Yeah. 0:30:20.140 --> 0:30:23.080 Right. Well, rather than aligning myself with reality. 0:30:23.600 --> 0:30:23.959 Yeah. 0:30:24.000 --> 0:30:27.360 You know, there certainly are reality. There are smaller realities 0:30:27.360 --> 0:30:35.640 that can be made true by, um, by human language, uh, 0:30:35.680 --> 0:30:40.760 human effort. Um, but ultimately there is a larger reality 0:30:40.760 --> 0:30:42.960 that if we don't align ourselves with it, it's going 0:30:43.000 --> 0:30:44.800 to it's going to snap back on us. 0:30:45.160 --> 0:30:45.920 That's right. 0:30:46.600 --> 0:30:50.200 And I sometimes imagine it like a, um, I don't 0:30:50.200 --> 0:30:53.520 know if you've ever seen footage of what it's like 0:30:53.560 --> 0:30:57.160 in the towns and villages around Chernobyl, where the, the 0:30:57.200 --> 0:31:01.840 nuclear power station blew up. Um, and of course, it's 0:31:01.840 --> 0:31:04.880 still many of the areas around there, and it's only 0:31:05.640 --> 0:31:13.600 it's only 100km from Kyiv, so it's pretty central to Ukraine. Um, uh, but, um, 0:31:13.720 --> 0:31:15.760 you know, there are still areas where you cannot go 0:31:15.760 --> 0:31:20.110 because it's still far too dangerous, um, and radioactive. But 0:31:20.150 --> 0:31:25.469 isn't it amazing that here you have these concrete perpendicular 0:31:25.470 --> 0:31:30.110 towns created to be part of this sort of communist utopia? 0:31:30.630 --> 0:31:30.990 Yeah. 0:31:31.310 --> 0:31:37.550 Um, and they're evacuated and crumbling, but there are weeds 0:31:37.550 --> 0:31:40.590 coming up through the pavements. There are trees, there's grass, 0:31:40.590 --> 0:31:44.030 there's there's all kinds of wildlife. Admittedly, some of it 0:31:44.070 --> 0:31:46.750 really badly affected by radiation. 0:31:47.030 --> 0:31:47.230 Yeah. 0:31:47.230 --> 0:31:53.070 But to me that is a picture, though, of original wisdom. 0:31:53.470 --> 0:31:53.790 Yeah. 0:31:53.830 --> 0:31:55.230 Getting through. In the end. 0:31:55.270 --> 0:31:55.670 You. 0:31:56.030 --> 0:31:58.350 Buffer yourself for so long, you might do it all 0:31:58.350 --> 0:32:02.710 your life, but there'll be a reckoning. And the weeds, 0:32:02.710 --> 0:32:07.830 the plants, the blossoms will come through eventually. You can't 0:32:07.830 --> 0:32:08.510 stop it. 0:32:08.790 --> 0:32:09.270 Yeah. 0:32:09.830 --> 0:32:13.830 Yeah, that that idea of of big reality snapping back, 0:32:15.030 --> 0:32:16.630 you know, you can call that karma or you can 0:32:16.630 --> 0:32:18.230 call it the coming of the kingdom of God. 0:32:18.690 --> 0:32:19.050 Mhm. 0:32:19.290 --> 0:32:20.810 I certainly would go for the latter. 0:32:20.850 --> 0:32:22.729 Yeah. Okay. Let's let's do that. 0:32:24.930 --> 0:32:28.130 Um, okay. We haven't even talked about, you know, central 0:32:28.130 --> 0:32:32.290 to your, to your thesis is the idea of propaganda. 0:32:32.890 --> 0:32:33.290 Mhm. 0:32:33.410 --> 0:32:38.290 Um, and so you said in a, in a um, um, 0:32:38.890 --> 0:32:41.490 what's the word in that imminent frame when we're living, 0:32:41.490 --> 0:32:44.530 when we're living in the imminent frame, the artist has 0:32:44.530 --> 0:32:49.690 a unique ability to make the transcendent seem plausible. 0:32:50.210 --> 0:32:50.610 Mhm. 0:32:50.650 --> 0:32:55.570 And then you say, and that doesn't require propaganda. Um, 0:32:55.970 --> 0:33:00.730 you know, avoiding the pitfalls of propaganda. Um, so I 0:33:00.730 --> 0:33:02.570 want to talk about propaganda, but I don't know any 0:33:02.570 --> 0:33:05.450 artists who think of themselves as doing propaganda. 0:33:06.370 --> 0:33:10.810 No, I'm sure that's true unless they live under a, say, 0:33:10.810 --> 0:33:13.130 a Stalinist regime where they have to. 0:33:13.610 --> 0:33:14.090 But. 0:33:14.850 --> 0:33:21.560 Um, the reality is. 99 times out of 100. Propaganda 0:33:21.600 --> 0:33:24.720 makes for bad art. I think there are 1 or 0:33:24.720 --> 0:33:27.800 2 occasions in history where that's not the case. So 0:33:27.800 --> 0:33:32.560 I would argue that a lot of Renaissance art in 0:33:32.560 --> 0:33:34.520 Italy was church propaganda. 0:33:34.880 --> 0:33:35.360 Okay. 0:33:35.400 --> 0:33:37.880 They were they, you know, where did the the bottom 0:33:37.880 --> 0:33:41.480 dollar come from? Well, it came from the Vatican. 0:33:41.880 --> 0:33:43.600 Yeah. Um, the Aeneid. 0:33:43.600 --> 0:33:45.400 I think, is the the greatest. 0:33:45.440 --> 0:33:47.120 For Augustus. Exactly. 0:33:47.160 --> 0:33:50.320 That's that is some really, really excellent propaganda. 0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:51.080 Yeah. 0:33:51.080 --> 0:33:54.040 And it works. Um, and I'll come back to why 0:33:54.040 --> 0:33:57.560 I think it works, but, um, I would say also 0:33:57.600 --> 0:34:01.200 say the first 4 or 5 years of the Soviet, um, 0:34:01.200 --> 0:34:06.040 communist revolution in Russia. Um, there was amazing stuff. I mean, 0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:10.319 I think the optimism, excitement of those. Yeah, that was 0:34:10.360 --> 0:34:13.040 a scary time. They were crazy stuff going on. And 0:34:13.040 --> 0:34:17.270 there was a civil war in Russia. Um, but the 0:34:17.270 --> 0:34:19.830 artists who got swept up in the fervor of this 0:34:19.830 --> 0:34:23.469 revolution were making amazing things. And you can see they're 0:34:23.469 --> 0:34:26.910 doing it to glorify the people rising up against their 0:34:27.270 --> 0:34:31.110 oppressors and whatever. And it's great art, but it doesn't 0:34:31.110 --> 0:34:36.430 last very long. And, um, it's not long before basically, 0:34:36.430 --> 0:34:41.350 they have to swallow the authority of commissars and committees 0:34:41.350 --> 0:34:45.510 that decide what is acceptable and not. And the thing is, 0:34:45.830 --> 0:34:47.589 I think it comes back to this idea of the 0:34:47.590 --> 0:34:48.549 wild whisper. 0:34:49.070 --> 0:34:49.430 Mhm. 0:34:50.030 --> 0:34:53.830 Um, one of the things in the, in the research 0:34:53.830 --> 0:34:56.790 I interviewed about 8 to 10 different people in different 0:34:56.790 --> 0:35:01.070 artistic fields about how they go about their work. One 0:35:01.070 --> 0:35:04.549 of the universal themes that came through very clearly, and 0:35:04.590 --> 0:35:09.950 it included, uh, a poet, a filmmaker, composers, painters. So 0:35:09.950 --> 0:35:14.730 it was a whole range of different, um, work They 0:35:14.730 --> 0:35:17.090 never quite know what it's going to end up like. 0:35:17.650 --> 0:35:18.090 Yeah. 0:35:18.650 --> 0:35:21.450 They start. They might have a question they want to 0:35:21.489 --> 0:35:25.450 answer or they they've set themselves a puzzle, you know, 0:35:25.489 --> 0:35:28.690 can I use just three colors in my palette to 0:35:28.730 --> 0:35:32.610 make this, or can I write a whole novel without 0:35:32.610 --> 0:35:35.729 using the letter E or whatever it is? So they 0:35:35.730 --> 0:35:40.970 set themselves, um, this constraint and then they work according 0:35:41.010 --> 0:35:45.490 to it. It works. Sometimes it doesn't work. And even 0:35:45.489 --> 0:35:47.650 if they're doing something they've done a hundred times, maybe 0:35:47.650 --> 0:35:48.730 today it doesn't work. 0:35:49.290 --> 0:35:49.690 Yeah. 0:35:50.130 --> 0:35:55.330 Um, now, a propagandist doesn't work like that at all. 0:35:55.330 --> 0:35:59.250 A propagandist sits down and says, this is the message. 0:35:59.690 --> 0:36:03.330 Not that I want, but that the audience or hearer 0:36:03.330 --> 0:36:05.169 or whatever must receive. 0:36:05.370 --> 0:36:05.890 Mhm. 0:36:06.250 --> 0:36:10.690 And there's no ambiguity. There's no give or take. Um, 0:36:10.730 --> 0:36:16.160 there's no deviation So you know the party, whether it's 0:36:16.960 --> 0:36:19.759 the Republican Party, the Democrat Party, the Labor Party, the 0:36:19.760 --> 0:36:24.240 Communist Party, the Fascist Party, whatever they have set in advance, 0:36:24.520 --> 0:36:29.719 this is the message people must receive. And therefore, all 0:36:30.680 --> 0:36:35.640 the open mindedness and the kind of groping around for 0:36:35.640 --> 0:36:39.520 something is completely gone. There's none of that. You know 0:36:39.520 --> 0:36:43.680 where you're going and you will get there. And therefore, 0:36:44.719 --> 0:36:48.200 a lot of what is so-called Christian art is just 0:36:48.200 --> 0:36:50.960 propaganda because they said, right, we're going to make sure 0:36:50.960 --> 0:36:54.640 people understand penal substitution of the cross. Uh, by the 0:36:54.640 --> 0:37:01.359 end of this song, painting drama. And if they don't 0:37:01.360 --> 0:37:02.960 get it, then there's something wrong with them. 0:37:03.480 --> 0:37:04.160 Mhm. Yeah. 0:37:05.239 --> 0:37:10.279 That is propaganda that, that is basically constraining art to 0:37:10.320 --> 0:37:13.980 something that it really is not. Um, it is much 0:37:13.980 --> 0:37:20.900 more provocative, ambiguous, unpredictable. Wild. 0:37:21.380 --> 0:37:21.860 Yeah. 0:37:22.260 --> 0:37:24.100 Yeah, I was just I was just thinking if if 0:37:24.140 --> 0:37:28.739 the creator is not open to that, to the wild whisper, 0:37:29.940 --> 0:37:33.740 then the wild whisper can't be heard by the audience. 0:37:33.780 --> 0:37:35.260 Exactly. It. Yeah. 0:37:35.300 --> 0:37:38.219 And very often then it's it's not so much the 0:37:38.219 --> 0:37:41.379 creator who's not open to it. It's the commissioner, the 0:37:41.380 --> 0:37:42.900 one commissioning the piece. 0:37:43.180 --> 0:37:43.500 Mhm. 0:37:43.540 --> 0:37:45.259 So this is I want what I want it to 0:37:45.300 --> 0:37:51.940 achieve instead. Actually um, most I'm sure most artists, writers 0:37:51.940 --> 0:37:54.980 or whatever would agree that it's a, it's difficult to 0:37:55.020 --> 0:37:59.220 work to a commission anyway. But B if they have to, 0:38:00.219 --> 0:38:07.660 they have ideally been given some criteria to which they're 0:38:07.660 --> 0:38:13.730 going to work. But the, the one commissioning must trust them. Say, well, 0:38:13.730 --> 0:38:15.569 there's a reason why you've asked me to do this, 0:38:15.570 --> 0:38:18.170 because I've got a track record of doing these things. 0:38:18.890 --> 0:38:22.770 I'm therefore trusted to, to to produce something good within 0:38:22.770 --> 0:38:26.810 the constraints that you've set. But you've not set the 0:38:26.850 --> 0:38:27.690 end product. 0:38:28.610 --> 0:38:28.970 Yeah. 0:38:29.010 --> 0:38:31.290 So it may be that, you know, for the last 0:38:31.290 --> 0:38:35.610 ten years I've painted six foot by six foot paintings, 0:38:36.010 --> 0:38:38.210 but this commission has done something to me where actually 0:38:38.210 --> 0:38:41.210 I think I'm going to do four miniatures that are 0:38:41.210 --> 0:38:44.970 the size, you know, I don't know of an envelope. It's, 0:38:45.010 --> 0:38:48.250 you know, and that's, that's got to be okay at 0:38:48.250 --> 0:38:48.850 one level. 0:38:49.090 --> 0:38:55.690 Okay. But. Working on commission is one thing. Working, working 0:38:55.770 --> 0:38:59.650 I'm sorry to a commission is one thing. More interesting, 0:38:59.650 --> 0:39:02.410 I think, are the ways that we assume that we 0:39:03.330 --> 0:39:08.930 receive or take on limitations, you know, whether that's market 0:39:09.040 --> 0:39:13.359 limitations or or we believe there's some message that we 0:39:13.400 --> 0:39:16.600 are required to, you know, it's that sort of self 0:39:17.160 --> 0:39:20.640 censorship isn't the word, but it's it's the, the same spirit. 0:39:20.680 --> 0:39:21.759 Self-limitation self. 0:39:21.760 --> 0:39:25.840 Limitation. Right. Um, and you know, I live in Nashville, Tennessee. 0:39:26.840 --> 0:39:28.520 So my famously said, or I don't know if it's 0:39:28.520 --> 0:39:30.520 famous or not, my said, here we make the best 0:39:30.520 --> 0:39:34.960 music in the world and the worst and the worst 0:39:34.960 --> 0:39:41.000 because there is a, uh, a commercial. Uh-Uh, there's a 0:39:41.400 --> 0:39:45.839 a commercial approach to music that's also assumes the worst 0:39:46.040 --> 0:39:49.480 in the listener. Right. And, and I think, you know, uh, 0:39:49.480 --> 0:39:53.360 one thing you said in your, your thesis, um, was 0:39:53.360 --> 0:40:00.000 that the that when we instrumentalize art, whether that's commercially or, 0:40:00.040 --> 0:40:01.600 you know, whether we think we've got to save people's 0:40:01.600 --> 0:40:03.440 souls or whether we think I'm going to I want 0:40:03.480 --> 0:40:07.040 to buy a lake house with this country song. We 0:40:07.040 --> 0:40:12.540 end up, Um. Uh. I'm sorry. I'm looking here for 0:40:12.540 --> 0:40:18.779 my quote. Uh, you describe it as a flattening. Um, 0:40:18.940 --> 0:40:23.259 that anything that makes demands on performers or audiences is avoided. 0:40:24.420 --> 0:40:24.980 Right. 0:40:25.219 --> 0:40:31.459 Um. And I think that's that's so. Important and relevant. 0:40:32.219 --> 0:40:37.500 The idea that that we don't make demands when we're 0:40:37.500 --> 0:40:43.300 being propagandistic or when we're instrumentalizing art. We're not making 0:40:43.300 --> 0:40:46.900 demands on people that would be good for them to 0:40:46.940 --> 0:40:50.300 have some demands made on them right now. 0:40:50.900 --> 0:40:54.380 I think that's exactly right. But the interesting thing is, 0:40:54.820 --> 0:40:58.060 the artist doesn't necessarily know what those demands will be. 0:40:59.540 --> 0:41:00.060 If you sort of. 0:41:00.100 --> 0:41:00.660 Mean they. 0:41:00.660 --> 0:41:05.660 Can't, they can't articulate in advance where it's going to 0:41:06.130 --> 0:41:09.850 Provoke or impinge. It might they might have a pretty 0:41:09.850 --> 0:41:14.490 good idea, because let's say they're trying to expose materialistic 0:41:14.489 --> 0:41:19.690 lifestyles that are just vacuous and, and, and empty are hollow. 0:41:20.530 --> 0:41:23.410 And so they're presenting a contrast to that, perhaps. But 0:41:24.370 --> 0:41:28.170 they don't necessarily think, okay, so people who have a vacuous, 0:41:28.170 --> 0:41:31.250 materialistic lifestyle are going to be challenged whenever they use 0:41:31.250 --> 0:41:34.049 a credit card at Walmart or whatever. I don't know, 0:41:34.090 --> 0:41:38.089 whatever it is, they haven't got a kind of template 0:41:38.090 --> 0:41:41.450 or a flow diagram for what's going to happen. They 0:41:41.450 --> 0:41:45.850 don't know. And sometimes and you and you know, so 0:41:45.850 --> 0:41:48.290 how often do you hear, say, a novelist at a 0:41:48.290 --> 0:41:51.089 book signing or whatever, and somebody who loves their work 0:41:51.090 --> 0:41:53.130 comes and talks to them and they say, you know, 0:41:53.170 --> 0:41:55.450 I saw this in that book of yours. And and 0:41:55.450 --> 0:41:58.130 it really changed my life and it helped me. Uh, 0:41:58.410 --> 0:42:01.450 and the novelist says, gosh, I'd never thought of that before. 0:42:01.810 --> 0:42:02.730 Yeah, yeah. 0:42:02.770 --> 0:42:05.669 And for the novelist, that's really exciting. It's is not 0:42:05.710 --> 0:42:08.390 illegitimate at all. It's. Yeah, that really makes sense. I 0:42:08.390 --> 0:42:11.190 wasn't thinking of that. But now you mention it. Yeah. Um, 0:42:11.230 --> 0:42:14.350 or I saw an interview with Steven Spielberg quite recently 0:42:14.350 --> 0:42:18.350 with a BBC guy who just said, um, just asked 0:42:18.350 --> 0:42:22.390 him a fairly inane question at one level about how 0:42:22.390 --> 0:42:25.469 his films were very often trying to deal with the 0:42:25.469 --> 0:42:29.950 conflict in his parents marriage, and it just stopped him 0:42:29.950 --> 0:42:30.910 in his tracks. 0:42:31.469 --> 0:42:31.830 Yeah. 0:42:32.350 --> 0:42:35.469 And tears were welling up. He said, you're right. 0:42:35.830 --> 0:42:35.989 Yeah. 0:42:35.989 --> 0:42:38.589 It was an incredibly moving thing to watch because he 0:42:38.590 --> 0:42:41.390 wasn't ready for it. And but pointed out, you think, yeah, 0:42:41.390 --> 0:42:42.989 that is exactly what's going on. 0:42:43.030 --> 0:42:43.430 Yeah. 0:42:43.590 --> 0:42:45.189 I think a part of part of the reason that's 0:42:45.190 --> 0:42:49.190 true is that the world is metaphorical, and metaphor works 0:42:49.190 --> 0:42:51.669 in literature because it's the way the world works. 0:42:51.670 --> 0:42:52.190 Right. 0:42:52.670 --> 0:43:03.430 And, um, and so the artist who's making metaphor doesn't 0:43:03.430 --> 0:43:09.380 have a. Monopoly on that metaphor that he or she. 0:43:09.380 --> 0:43:10.060 Made, right? 0:43:10.460 --> 0:43:14.299 They're only drawing on connections in the world that the 0:43:14.300 --> 0:43:17.100 reader has access to those connections as well. 0:43:18.060 --> 0:43:22.420 And, and therefore can have, you know, a word is, 0:43:22.460 --> 0:43:27.740 is multivalence. It's got many different layers of meaning simultaneously. 0:43:27.739 --> 0:43:30.020 It's not it's not a zero sum. 0:43:30.540 --> 0:43:30.739 Yeah. 0:43:30.780 --> 0:43:36.100 So, um, there are legitimate interpretations that can sit side 0:43:36.100 --> 0:43:37.980 by side at the same time. And actually when you 0:43:37.980 --> 0:43:41.299 start spotting them, even in the Bible, they're all over 0:43:41.300 --> 0:43:44.980 the place. So there are places where you cannot say 0:43:44.980 --> 0:43:46.740 this verse means just one thing. 0:43:46.860 --> 0:43:47.340 Yeah. 0:43:47.739 --> 0:43:51.819 Um, John's gospel does that all the time. Um, but 0:43:51.820 --> 0:43:53.419 then here we come back to what we were talking 0:43:53.420 --> 0:43:55.339 about at the beginning, when we're talking about metaphor, you see, 0:43:55.380 --> 0:43:58.740 of course, if you're going to live in an imminent 0:43:58.739 --> 0:44:05.080 world inside the sealed house Mhm. Any time you begin, 0:44:05.080 --> 0:44:09.600 you even try to imagine, let alone describe outside the 0:44:09.600 --> 0:44:12.600 front door, it's going to have to be in relation 0:44:12.600 --> 0:44:16.239 to your experience from inside the house. So you're going 0:44:16.239 --> 0:44:17.960 to have to say I know you know the experience 0:44:17.960 --> 0:44:22.160 of being in the kitchen. Well there's something kitcheny out 0:44:22.160 --> 0:44:26.839 there but you. But if you're in the house, you 0:44:26.880 --> 0:44:29.440 have you have to deal with that. And that's exactly 0:44:29.440 --> 0:44:31.800 the same when it comes to issues of transcendence. All 0:44:31.840 --> 0:44:36.279 our language to describe God and eternity and stuff. They 0:44:36.280 --> 0:44:39.080 are imminent words. They have to be. They can't be 0:44:39.080 --> 0:44:43.759 anything else. And Jesus, by becoming human, becomes imminent himself 0:44:44.440 --> 0:44:47.399 in order to communicate to us, because otherwise it would 0:44:47.400 --> 0:44:50.200 just explode our brains. We wouldn't know what it meant, 0:44:50.239 --> 0:44:53.040 let alone be able to hear it. So the whole 0:44:53.239 --> 0:44:57.120 at one level, the entire gospel is metaphor. But many 0:44:57.120 --> 0:44:58.759 people hear that and they think, oh, he's saying it's 0:44:58.760 --> 0:45:00.919 not true. Quite the reverse. 0:45:00.920 --> 0:45:00.990 Us. 0:45:01.750 --> 0:45:03.989 It's more true than you can possibly imagine. 0:45:06.150 --> 0:45:08.989 Love it. Okay, I'm going to change the subject. 0:45:09.430 --> 0:45:12.469 Whoa. Okay. Yeah. I want to hear about your. 0:45:12.469 --> 0:45:14.190 I want I want you to tell me a little 0:45:14.230 --> 0:45:16.950 bit about your podcast. 0:45:17.230 --> 0:45:17.950 Oh, yeah. 0:45:17.989 --> 0:45:20.630 Triptych. Triptych. Conversations. I have that right. 0:45:20.989 --> 0:45:21.870 Yeah. Triptych. 0:45:21.870 --> 0:45:26.790 Triptych. Conversations. Um, so it's been something that's been sort 0:45:26.790 --> 0:45:29.430 of brewing in my mind for about a year. Um, 0:45:29.630 --> 0:45:32.350 and it does, you know, kind of flow out of 0:45:32.350 --> 0:45:37.390 this stuff. Um, taking seriously the fact that people make 0:45:37.390 --> 0:45:41.110 really amazing things out there, and we want to work 0:45:41.110 --> 0:45:43.710 out what they're seeing that we haven't seen. And, um, 0:45:43.750 --> 0:45:46.790 do they help us understand our lives better? Um, and 0:45:46.790 --> 0:45:50.790 my experience even before I became a Christian is that 0:45:50.830 --> 0:45:52.910 the arts do that. And that's why I'm a total 0:45:53.590 --> 0:45:56.190 sort of culture vulture. Really. I can't get enough of it. 0:45:56.190 --> 0:46:00.779 But I was just thinking, you know, we are all human. 0:46:00.780 --> 0:46:05.180 So we whoever's making things, we have that fundamental thing 0:46:05.180 --> 0:46:09.660 in common and they might live on the other side 0:46:09.660 --> 0:46:12.259 of the world, use a different language, have all kinds 0:46:12.260 --> 0:46:14.580 of different experiences from me. But if they're making something 0:46:14.580 --> 0:46:17.180 within this world, then there's going to be a connection somewhere. 0:46:17.900 --> 0:46:19.620 And so I was thinking, well, what would happen if 0:46:19.620 --> 0:46:26.540 you take three completely different artworks in different styles, different genres? 0:46:26.540 --> 0:46:30.180 So there could be a song, a painting, a novel 0:46:30.380 --> 0:46:33.420 from different centuries or different places or whatever. Let's throw 0:46:33.460 --> 0:46:37.340 the three completely separate random things together and say, okay, 0:46:38.300 --> 0:46:41.739 let's think about these three things. Is there anything that 0:46:41.739 --> 0:46:44.140 connects them other than that they're made by people? 0:46:44.540 --> 0:46:45.140 Mhm. 0:46:45.260 --> 0:46:49.859 Um, and see what happens. And so hence triptych. Um, 0:46:49.860 --> 0:46:52.899 because the idea of a triptych in medieval painting was 0:46:52.940 --> 0:46:55.620 a sort of three paneled artwork that it's a bit 0:46:55.620 --> 0:46:56.899 like a strip cartoon. 0:46:57.100 --> 0:46:57.620 Mhm. 0:46:57.660 --> 0:47:01.279 But you see these on, you know, medieval altarpieces and stuff, 0:47:01.280 --> 0:47:04.560 and they tell the story of the gospel or whatever. Um, 0:47:04.719 --> 0:47:09.719 and you're meant to read them as a group. Let's 0:47:09.719 --> 0:47:11.640 see if we can do that with really random things. 0:47:11.640 --> 0:47:13.359 And it literally is random. We try to be as 0:47:13.360 --> 0:47:16.839 random as possible. So, um, the fifth episode is coming 0:47:16.840 --> 0:47:19.200 out in the next, uh, ten days or so, and 0:47:19.239 --> 0:47:20.520 we're having a lot of fun. 0:47:21.080 --> 0:47:24.120 So it's you and Sophie Billingsley and Joel Bayne. 0:47:24.480 --> 0:47:25.160 That's right. 0:47:25.400 --> 0:47:26.360 Sophie killing Lee. 0:47:26.680 --> 0:47:27.399 Um, Joel. 0:47:27.440 --> 0:47:27.760 Bayne. 0:47:27.800 --> 0:47:28.240 Yeah. 0:47:28.800 --> 0:47:32.200 And he is an artist in somewhere in the UK. 0:47:32.239 --> 0:47:32.640 A visual. 0:47:32.640 --> 0:47:33.120 Artist? Yes. 0:47:33.120 --> 0:47:35.920 He's actually about an hour from where we live. Um, 0:47:36.080 --> 0:47:40.680 and Joel is a pastor in Jamaica, um, in Kingston. 0:47:40.680 --> 0:47:43.200 And I met him years ago. I was doing some 0:47:43.719 --> 0:47:46.239 teaching in Jamaica, and he came to one of the 0:47:46.239 --> 0:47:48.640 things I was doing, and we kept in touch. Um, 0:47:48.640 --> 0:47:50.319 and I've done 1 or 2 things at his church 0:47:50.320 --> 0:47:52.799 in Kingston, um, in the last few years. 0:47:52.840 --> 0:47:53.200 Well, it's. 0:47:53.200 --> 0:47:55.839 Really fun to hear you all talking about the, the 0:47:55.840 --> 0:47:59.069 artwork together, the, the various kinds of art. We all 0:47:59.070 --> 0:48:02.630 have a great chemistry with one another. And, um, anyway, 0:48:02.630 --> 0:48:04.950 I just I love what you're doing with triptych. 0:48:04.950 --> 0:48:05.390 Thank you very. 0:48:05.390 --> 0:48:07.230 Much. Well, we're having we're having a lot of fun. I, 0:48:07.670 --> 0:48:09.710 I look forward to it a lot. And and the 0:48:09.710 --> 0:48:13.149 interesting thing is, um, so what we do is we 0:48:13.150 --> 0:48:16.430 take each of the three things and discuss them in turn. 0:48:16.469 --> 0:48:18.989 So each of us has one that we bring to 0:48:19.030 --> 0:48:22.630 the table. And we worked on, although we've all, um, 0:48:22.670 --> 0:48:25.270 spent some time in those things beforehand. And then we 0:48:25.270 --> 0:48:28.710 come to the final segment, which is the convergence. And 0:48:29.190 --> 0:48:32.750 we absolutely do not plan that. Um, we don't know 0:48:32.750 --> 0:48:36.910 where it's going to go. Um, and it's quite nerve wracking. 0:48:36.910 --> 0:48:39.029 When we recorded the first couple, we thought, well, we'll 0:48:39.030 --> 0:48:41.589 do this and just see if it works. Otherwise we'll 0:48:41.590 --> 0:48:43.509 have to be a bit more intentional and plan it. 0:48:43.790 --> 0:48:45.910 But actually we've not needed to. It's been a lot 0:48:45.910 --> 0:48:47.989 of fun and we and we really did not know 0:48:47.989 --> 0:48:49.950 where things were going to end up each time. So 0:48:50.469 --> 0:48:52.029 there's a bit of jeopardy for us there. I think 0:48:52.030 --> 0:48:53.630 it probably keeps us on the edge of the seat. 0:48:54.030 --> 0:48:54.430 Yeah. 0:48:55.510 --> 0:48:58.569 All right. Well, Mark thanks. It's always great to talk 0:48:58.570 --> 0:49:01.330 to you. And so glad we got to do this together. 0:49:01.330 --> 0:49:02.290 Thank you so much for having me. 0:49:02.290 --> 0:49:02.810 It's great. 0:49:06.010 --> 0:49:08.930 The Habit Podcast is brought to you by The Rabbit Room, 0:49:08.930 --> 0:49:12.689 where art nourishes community, and community nourishes art. You can 0:49:12.690 --> 0:49:16.049 support their work including this podcast, by becoming a member. 0:49:16.290 --> 0:49:22.130 Visit COVID-19. 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