S1: You know how conversation is. It's the most wonderful thing.
S1: It's unscripted, it's spontaneous, it's stream of consciousness. So I've
S1: spent a lot of my life in conversation just chasing
S1: rabbits down trails. And there's always laughter at some point.
S1: I mean, I won't say that's the purpose of a
S1: good conversation, but it sure is an ingredient of a
S1: good conversation, right?
S2: Welcome to the Habit podcast conversations with writers about writing.
S2: I'm Jonathan Rogers, your host. This episode is brought to
S2: you by the Habit Writer development cohorts. I've taught a
S2: lot of writers over the last three decades, and here's
S2: a recurring theme if you're a writer, it can be
S2: hard to believe that readers need what you can bring.
S2: But your voice, your point of view, your combination of
S2: interests and insights well, those are exactly what the world
S2: needs from you. I put together the Habit Writer Development Cohorts,
S2: a six week writing intensive to help writers like you
S2: recover your voice, build sustainable habits and produce work that
S2: sounds exactly like you. From May 19th through June 27th,
S2: you'll write alongside a small group of fellow writers with structure, coaching,
S2: and support every step of the way. Find out more
S2: and apply for a spot at the habitat. Speaking of voice,
S2: my guest for this episode has one of the most
S2: distinctive voices of any writer I know. Alan Levi is
S2: a songwriter, a memoirist, a fiction writer, and whatever genre
S2: or medium he works in, he always sounds like the
S2: person you're about to hear in the following conversation. Alan
S2: Levi always sounds like Alan Levi. His most recent book,
S2: a novel called Theo of Golden, is enjoying tremendous success.
S2: Alan remains humble, but his friends are mighty proud of him.
S2: Alan Levi, it's always a pleasure to talk to you,
S2: and I'm so glad to have you on The Habit podcast.
S1: Thank you. It's always a pleasure for me. Good to
S1: see you again, Jonathan.
S2: It's been so fun to see Theo of Golden taking
S2: off all over the place. Um, I keep hearing from people, uh,
S2: from various walks of life, uh, mentioning it, not having
S2: any idea. I know who you are or have any
S2: connection to you, and they just say, hey, you know
S2: this book Theo of Golden? And I said, I sure do,
S2: and it's really funny.
S1: Well, I love that. Yeah, it's been a great it's
S1: been a pleasant surprise. Shock might be a better word.
S1: As you and I discussed when the book first came out.
S1: It was it was just an experiment on my part
S1: initially to see if I could sit still long enough
S1: to write a long piece of fiction, and I'd had
S1: no intentions of publishing it. Um, so the fact that
S1: it ever saw the light of day is something of
S1: a surprise. But the response has been extremely encouraging. Gracious, shocking. Yeah, well.
S2: The reason I called you to ask to to talk is,
S2: I mean, we can certainly talk about Theory of Gold.
S2: We've done that in another episode. But I've been thinking
S2: a lot about voice lately. Uh, you know, I'm about
S2: to start a new cohort for writers and and helping
S2: writers see their what their voice is to to trust
S2: their their voice, to lean into it, to realize that
S2: learning to ventriloquize somebody else's voice is never going to
S2: get them where they need to be, right? Um, you
S2: you come to mind when I think of somebody who
S2: has a distinct voice your nonfiction, your fiction, your music,
S2: your conversation, just as a person. It all sounds like
S2: the same person. And I wanted to hear if you
S2: had anything to say about that.
S1: Well thank you. I'll take that as a great compliment, because.
S2: It's a compliment.
S1: Well, I know you do. Thank you. Uh, and the
S1: reason that I say thank you is I know of
S1: my own tendency to want to be other people. As
S1: a musician, I struggled with that a lot. There were musicians,
S1: singer songwriters who I really loved. I listened to the
S1: music a lot. It's interesting, over the 20 plus years
S1: that I did music full time, I got to the
S1: point that I rarely listened to any other music. I
S1: just because the tendency, uh, given my own broken places, uh,
S1: was to think, okay, I need to be like David Wilcox.
S1: I like that tuning. I like the way he does this.
S1: I'm going to. And you can hear a lot of
S1: his influence in my music. Sure. Uh, I want to
S1: be Andrew Peterson. I want to be Bebo Norman. I
S1: want to be James Taylor, that kind of thing. And
S1: so the the thought, uh, your observation that I might
S1: have a voice that is distinctly my own tells me
S1: maybe I've made a little progress against that temptation. I
S1: read a lot, and I'm not a good reader. I
S1: don't remember much of what I read. I don't read analytically.
S1: I don't read so that I can quote passages from
S1: other people. I read books to be changed. And I
S1: feel like that happens even when I don't, uh, don't
S1: don't pick up much that I can share with other people. Um,
S1: but Wendell Berry would be a good example of someone
S1: who I read and I think, gosh, I wish I
S1: could write like that. And his voice sounds a bit
S1: familiar to me. Yeah, he's a rural man. Yeah, he
S1: he grew up, as he said, around good talkers. I
S1: have had that same good fortune. Yeah. And, and when
S1: I read him, I think, gosh, I'm going to try
S1: to imitate Mr. Wendell Berry. Well, that is a fool's errand.
S1: And I think in, in the course of, you know,
S1: just writing blogs over the years, writing songs, I just
S1: realized that the pretense, if nobody else notices, it is
S1: very obvious to me I'm trying to be someone else.
S1: And as as I've written really just two books at
S1: this point, uh, a memoir called The Last Sweet Mile,
S1: about the last year that I lived with my brother
S1: before he passed away. And then, uh, Theo of Golden.
S1: I just realized it's too hard to try to imitate somebody,
S1: and it's too self-defeating. It's no fun. And so I,
S1: you know, I, I don't know that I write in
S1: my own voice intentionally. It's just the only voice I've got. Yeah.
S1: And so, so and.
S2: Yeah.
S1: And it's.
S2: Well. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.
S1: No, no. Go ahead, go ahead.
S2: I would just say, when you say it's the only
S2: voice you got, I, I yes, I, I understand that
S2: that's not. But the problem is you've got to get
S2: to a point where you're willing to say that that
S2: one voice I've got, that's what I have to give
S2: to the world.
S1: Yeah.
S2: And, you know, you don't you don't have Wendell Berry
S2: to give to the world. Wendell Berry has what Wendell
S2: Berry can give, and you've got what you can give.
S1: That's all.
S2: And that's all the world needs from you, by the way,
S2: is what you can give.
S1: Yeah.
S2: And nobody's mad at you. That you. that you can't be,
S2: you know. Lucy Shaw or Stephen King, they they do
S2: what they do, and you do what you do.
S1: Yeah. Or Jonathan Rogers, you know, I think I've had the,
S1: what would I say, the ambiguous good fortune of of
S1: having no one to work with me. Mhm. Uh, there
S1: are lots and lots and lots of times you and
S1: I have talked about this before, that I have wished
S1: that I could float something that I'm writing by someone
S1: who writes. Yeah. Up in Nashville, y'all are. Y'all are
S1: just swimming in a pool of talent. Uh, in Hamilton, Georgia.
S1: It's real hard to come by. There are talented people here,
S1: believe me. And those good talkers have a talent of
S1: their own. That is. That is enviable. But I think
S1: the fact that I've had to work by myself has, uh,
S1: it may have shielded me from being too much influenced
S1: by outside voices, you know, because, believe me, if somebody
S1: were to read what I'm writing and say you need
S1: to do ABC, I would probably say, okay, you know,
S1: I don't. I'll do ABC and I don't know that
S1: that wouldn't corrupt the voice that I'm trying to write in,
S1: which is my own. Uh, there have been times when
S1: people have read things and and they will, um, you know,
S1: they will offer a suggestion. And I realize that's probably correct,
S1: but that's not the way I. I see that sentence,
S1: that thought, that phrase give you a real simple example. Um,
S1: when I was writing The Last Sweet Mile about my brother, uh,
S1: there was a section of the book about my brother's laughter.
S1: People ask me what I miss about him. Most of all.
S1: That's it. His humor, his laughter, the way that he
S1: could pull laughter out of me. But I was telling
S1: a story in it, and it was about snakes. And
S1: how we love to talk about snakes down here. If
S1: you're ever in a, you know, a meat and three
S1: down here and the conversation starts to wither. All you
S1: have to do is mention a snake and it lights
S1: up real quick. Well, I was telling a story about
S1: a snake, and at some point in that I was
S1: talking about how I work in the woods by myself,
S1: which I do very, very regularly, and especially in summertime.
S1: Every stick looks like a snake. And so it's nerve
S1: wracking to be in the woods by myself, knowing that
S1: these serpents are out there and in. In the story,
S1: I made the statement that it's amazing how many days
S1: have been I don't know how I said it, uh,
S1: interrupted by a plain old piece of tree wood. Okay.
S1: You know that because you got country in you. Yeah.
S1: But someone read that and say, well, why do you
S1: say tree? Why do you say tree? Wood. Why don't
S1: you just say wood? I mean, if it's from. If
S1: it's wood, it's from a tree. And I said, well,
S1: that's how we say it. Yeah. Tree wood is how
S1: we say it. And that's now in a moment of weakness,
S1: I might have said, well, yeah, that's kind of stupid.
S1: It's redundant. Let me take that out. Yeah, but that's
S1: very authentic to this area, and that's very authentic to
S1: a lunch conversation that I would have with anybody down here. Yeah.
S1: So so maybe I've been blessed by living in a desert.
S1: You know, where I don't have people who interrupt too
S1: much the flow of what I'm doing. Having said that,
S1: I need somebody like that. And I'm working on a
S1: book now. A sequel to Theo. And I've been talking
S1: with my niece, and I said, we have got to
S1: have somebody who really knows what they're doing. Look at
S1: this before I put it out, if I put it
S1: out at all. Um, but but I think up to
S1: this point, I have been well served by the fact
S1: that the only voice in my head when I'm writing
S1: is my voice. Yeah. And you know what I've seen?
S2: Yeah. I tell you what, you know, I, I grew
S2: up among good talkers, too.
S1: Sure.
S2: And I, um, went, you know, went to Vanderbilt, got
S2: a PhD in, uh, British literature. And that was a
S2: good experience and I learned a lot. But to become
S2: the writer I wanted to be, I had to unlearn
S2: a lot of that and settle back in and realize
S2: that I learned a lot of what I need to
S2: know to be a storyteller, you know, not at Vanderbilt,
S2: but at the at the table with the people. I
S2: you know, I had some just some raconteurs, you know,
S2: in my, in my world that really made it, uh,
S2: to lean into what I had grown up doing all
S2: the time.
S1: Right.
S2: Was really transformative for me. Tell me about your good
S2: talkers in your in your world.
S1: Yeah. Yes. I mean, uh, I mean, from the start,
S1: I mean, from the cradle. My dad is a forester.
S1: Uh huh. Uh, and so he owned a sawmill, a
S1: couple of sawmills. He owned, uh, logging trucks and all
S1: of that sort of thing. So it was a very
S1: blue collar world. You know, grease on the shirt, dirt
S1: under the fingernails kind of thing. I worked at his
S1: sawmill one summer. I worked with the Pope Wooding crew
S1: one summer. I think he made me take those jobs
S1: so I would study hard when I went to school.
S1: And it worked pretty good. But, you know, all during
S1: the day when you shut everything down to either sharpen
S1: the saws or have lunch or fix something that's broken,
S1: you just start talking and. And it's country talk. The
S1: grammar is not right. Uh, the syntax is a word
S1: that would never cross the minds of most of the
S1: guys that I grew up with. Uh, and then my
S1: friends down in Columbus, Georgia, which is a real to me,
S1: a real city, uh, even they, uh, had enough country
S1: still in them because they, their dads had similar sorts
S1: of jobs. A lot of them. Yeah. Um, you know,
S1: you know how conversation is. It's the most wonderful thing.
S1: It's unscripted, it's spontaneous, it's stream of consciousness. So I've
S1: spent a lot of my life in conversation, just chasing
S1: rabbits down trails, and there's always laughter at some point.
S1: I mean, I won't say that's the purpose of a
S1: good conversation, but it sure is an ingredient of a
S1: good conversation, right?
S2: I is it possible that it's the purpose?
S1: I think I think.
S2: I mean, I mean, the one of the ways that,
S2: you know, that a thing is important is that it
S2: it's not a means towards something else. Right? If it's
S2: if it's an end in itself, like if you say
S2: laughter is the best medicine, you suddenly turned laughter into
S2: something less than what it really is.
S1: Amen. Good, good.
S2: Because. Because that same laughter. Yeah. That that it's a
S2: means toward good health or whatever.
S1: Right, right, right.
S2: Uh, I mean, it's it's an okay thing to say.
S2: I it didn't really hurt my feelings. People say laughter
S2: is the best medicine, but I think it's it's a
S2: that joy. That's a clue. It's a it's the beginnings
S2: of what we're made for in the first place and
S2: what we're headed toward.
S1: Yeah, I love that. That's a great thought. Yeah. The
S1: idea that, you know, we we and I would say
S1: laughter almost in quotation marks, laughter as representative of a life,
S1: of flourishing, of joy. I was reading this morning in
S1: Proverbs eight, kind of the the Proverbs version of the
S1: creation story, where wisdom says, I was there from the
S1: very start. I was there before anything was made. But
S1: a little farther down in the passage, uh, wisdom says,
S1: I rejoiced at everything that was. I delighted in it.
S1: And to me that that includes laughter. I mean, I
S1: can almost see wisdom personified as this voice that laughs
S1: when God made the cockatoo, or the bird, or the
S1: dogwood tree or anything like that. And conversation, I think,
S1: is like that. C.S. Lewis writes, as you know, about
S1: happiness as an end. He says that if we aim
S1: for happiness, we probably won't get there. If we make
S1: that our goal, we just live our lives in such
S1: a way that happiness is the fruit of it. And
S1: I think that conversation maybe works that way, that we
S1: we converse with people who we're comfortable with, who speak
S1: in their own voices and invariably, laughter in that broad sense, uh,
S1: is the result of it. It may be maybe not
S1: an out loud burst of laughter, but there's joy, there's delight,
S1: there's pleasure in it, and there's connection. I mean, you know,
S1: these these people that I've worked with who are the
S1: good talkers over the years? Um, you know, it really
S1: it creates a bond between people that we can have
S1: a conversation, be honest, laugh at the same things, disagree
S1: about things. I had lunch yesterday with, uh, with two
S1: good friends of mine. One is, uh, he's a justice
S1: with the Georgia Court of Appeals, and the other is
S1: a former law partner. And so they're pretty bright guys.
S1: But even there, they we started lunch, and I hadn't
S1: seen these fellows in a while. And one of them
S1: started sharing a story. And, uh, about five minutes later,
S1: when he finished the story, I said, you know, this
S1: has brought to mind how much I miss lawyers because
S1: they're such good storytellers. Yeah, and the ones that really
S1: do it well, I mean, they are the most wonderful conversationalists.
S1: And they're working with cases, human conflict, you know. But
S1: so good talkers doesn't necessarily mean that they're blue collar
S1: or that they're, you know, ordinary common folk. There's some very,
S1: very educated people who still got a lot of that
S1: in themselves. The good lawyers do.
S2: Yeah. Yeah. So, Alan, all this is making me think
S2: about a time I was in graduate school at Vanderbilt.
S2: And you know how graduate school goes. Very theoretical. Um,
S2: came home to Warner Robins, Georgia, for Easter and was
S2: at a was at a Easter egg hunt. And there
S2: were kids swirling around doing their Easter egg thing, and
S2: there was a knot of men standing around telling stories
S2: about dogs they had known and tractors and things like that.
S1: Mhm.
S2: And I stood outside the group and I had, you know,
S2: some thought like, ah, well, this is how, um, you know,
S2: narrative is how people make meaning, you know, some sort
S2: of theoretical thought. And then I then I immediately thought, well,
S2: this is, this is silly for me to stand outside
S2: the group and think, I understand what these men are
S2: doing more than they understand themselves. Yeah. What they're doing.
S1: Yeah.
S2: And, uh, I think I mentioned this earlier, so much
S2: of of my learning how to do the work of
S2: a writer, uh, has been avoiding the temptation to to
S2: get critical distance and and learning how to to lean
S2: back in.
S1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's an interesting point, isn't it,
S1: that we can become so academic or so absorbed in
S1: methodology and things of that sort, that sort that we
S1: forget the spirit of the work that we're doing and
S1: maybe the conversation that we're invited to be a part of, uh,
S1: You know, you and I began this conversation without really
S1: defining what a writer's voice is. Um.
S2: And I think it did. We.
S1: Yeah. And and I'm not even sure, honestly, uh, that
S1: I could attach a definition to it other than to
S1: liken it to the the spoken voice. I mean, we
S1: all sound different. Yeah. But but I do think that
S1: voice is more than just our manner of delivery. Uh,
S1: the way that we construct sentences, that sort of thing.
S1: I do think that there is a spirit with which
S1: we communicate that that contributes or maybe largely defines what
S1: the speaker's voice is. I'll tell you a criticism that
S1: I've gotten over the years as a songwriter. And and
S1: now even as a novice writer of fiction. Uh, I
S1: will I will hearken back to a conversation that I
S1: had years ago with a friend who was very knowledgeable
S1: about the the music industry and whatnot. Uh, was not
S1: a believer. Uh, and he was very clear about that.
S1: But he said, man, you've got a lot of talent
S1: as a songwriter. Uh, and you could probably really make
S1: something of yourself, but you're just so unrealistic in your songwriting.
S1: And what he was saying was, you have got too
S1: much hope in your songs. And so I kind of
S1: took the criticism as a positive. Yeah. Because I think
S1: that the spirit with which I hope I write, and
S1: I think that this might be true for all of
S1: us as followers of Christ, uh, we are bound by
S1: some bookends, uh, one being the great command that we
S1: love God and love our neighbors as ourselves, and the
S1: other that we are trying to declare something to the world.
S1: And for me, hope is a component of that. So
S1: one of our favorite writers, you and me both Flannery O'Connor, uh,
S1: observed one time that that to make us aware, us
S1: being the reading public, aware of just how broken we are. Uh,
S1: she said, I have to write these drastic storylines with
S1: grotesque characters and these really atrocious, uh, atrocious narratives. You know,
S1: I think that the at the opposite end of the spectrum,
S1: sometimes we have to write almost drastically, in a positive sense,
S1: to affirm the potential that we're capable of. And so
S1: I've had, uh, not many, but I've had a couple
S1: of folks who've said your story about the old man
S1: from Portugal, Theo is way too positive. It's not realistic.
S1: It could never happen in the world. And I would
S1: push back against that. I don't think that it's incredible.
S1: And I know people who who are pretty much like
S1: the old man from Portugal, my brother now deceased, being
S1: one of them. Um, but, uh, but I think that
S1: there is to be a spirit in the writer's voice.
S1: If the writer is a follower of Christ, uh, that
S1: ought to be distinct. It should be honest. It can
S1: be severe, it can be critical. It can be everything that, uh,
S1: that any other writer's voice has. Um, but it has
S1: that plus what the gospel brings to us, which is
S1: hope and a belief that, uh, that there is goodness
S1: in the world. And there is a good story that
S1: we get to be a part of.
S2: Yeah, yeah. When I said earlier that that you're everything
S2: that I know of, of your work, whatever genre still
S2: feels like Alan Levi. That's really what I'm talking about.
S2: Even more than, you know, diction or. Yeah. Sentence structure
S2: or whatever. It's it's it it always sounds like, uh,
S2: it always sounds like you.
S1: Thank you. I will take that as a compliment. I
S1: you know, I think I think the danger is that, uh,
S1: at some point, if the voice becomes entirely predictable or
S1: if it becomes too monochromatic or too narrow. Uh, I
S1: would hate to be a writer that is so intent
S1: on on propping up the goodness of life that I'm
S1: dishonest about the broken parts. And I've been pleasantly surprised
S1: with the Theo book that one of the chapters and
S1: it was it was added literally 2 or 3 days
S1: before I finished the last manuscript. It's a short chapter
S1: about sadness and, um, a lot of people who have
S1: read the book have commented that that I felt like
S1: I had permission, after reading that chapter to be sad
S1: and to acknowledge that there is this part deep down
S1: inside me. As much as I want to be hopeful
S1: and positive about the world and life as we know it,
S1: that just feels like it. I can't go there. But
S1: but this old man saying sadness is a part of
S1: life that we all have to wrestle to the mat. Um,
S1: it it opened a door for them. And so I
S1: would hope that, you know. And I know you you
S1: would feel the same way. Uh, any good writer, I think, would.
S1: We want to be honest. We want to be credible
S1: if we're writing realistic fiction and and we we want
S1: to say, yeah, the world is broken, but. Yeah. And
S1: then on the other side of the. But, you know, we, we,
S1: we try to, to put life as we know it
S1: in focus.
S2: Well, I think, uh, it's, I find it helpful to
S2: think in terms of there's things that are true about
S2: the world, and there are things that are truer.
S1: Yeah. Well said.
S2: You know, and so all and I think maybe that's
S2: maybe that's the, the the difference. I don't I hesitate
S2: to speak in too broad generalities. But you know, I,
S2: I read writers from all sorts of, you know, faith positions.
S1: Right?
S2: Um, and from all over the place, people say things
S2: that are true about the world.
S1: Yeah.
S2: Right. And helpful and useful. And I also think that
S2: many times when I read those, I think, yeah, but
S2: there's something truer than that.
S1: Yeah.
S2: And I would like, as a writer, I would like
S2: to live in the, the parts that I believe are truer.
S1: Yeah.
S2: But that doesn't discount, um, I mean, that's, that's the
S2: nature of the gospel is is there are.
S1: Amen.
S2: There's some there's some, uh, news that's not so great.
S1: Yeah.
S2: That's right. Within the good news.
S1: It's interesting. When I had that conversation with the musician
S1: friend years and years ago. I don't remember if I
S1: actually told him this, but I sure thought it. Um, yes.
S1: Maybe the perspective that I bring to the songwriting that
S1: I do is unrealistically positive, but I believe in the
S1: God of the prophets, and you would really not want
S1: me to write the truth and the, the the strong
S1: language of the of the prophets. You would see how
S1: wide my perspective or a believer's perspective is of life,
S1: that we're in a in a real dilemma. And, and
S1: I've written some, you know, some things that were darker. Uh,
S1: but I don't, I don't I hope I will never, um,
S1: fall into the temptation of writing something dark for the
S1: sake of being thought serious.
S2: Hmm.
S1: I read this interesting book. I may have mentioned this
S1: to you before. It's by David Halverson called the 50s. Okay.
S1: And it's a it's about the decade of the 50s,
S1: and it's a fascinating read. And you, you kind of
S1: get the, the, uh, the sense that everything that we're
S1: dealing with today in the culture at large had its
S1: roots back in the 50s after the Second World War.
S1: Just so much happened during that decade. But one of
S1: the things that was mentioned is that Elvis Presley was
S1: one of the, uh, he was one of the signature
S1: characters of that decade. Uh, and just the way that
S1: music changed, race relations changed in some ways. Uh, but
S1: one of the things about Elvis Presley that he learned
S1: early on in his career was, if you want to
S1: be taken seriously, do not smile. And so and and really,
S1: I mean, you know, he had kind of a snarky
S1: sort of smile. And every now and then he would
S1: let loose with it. But but he realized, okay, James Dean, uh,
S1: Marlon Brando, these tough guys, they're the ones that are
S1: getting the attention. And I think sometimes that maybe as creatives,
S1: whether we're writing or painting or whatever, uh, we, we're
S1: tempted to create that persona about ourselves, whether it's whether
S1: it's true or not. And, um, and I hope that
S1: I hope I never fall into that myself, because it
S1: would be to abandon a hope about which I am
S1: hopelessly hopeful. I just believe. I believe in it desperately.
S1: And I think the world wants to have hope. Uh,
S1: and write accordingly.
S2: Yeah, I love it. Hey. Real quick. I don't usually, uh,
S2: ask about sort of, uh, publishing business things, but can
S2: you tell me last time we talked about it, really?
S2: Probably less than a year ago, we had an episode
S2: about Theo of Gold, and then it was just making
S2: its way into the world. And in the meantime, it
S2: is just. I hear about it all over the place.
S1: Yeah.
S2: People are reading this book and this book. The self-published book.
S1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how did it how did that happen?
S2: About what happened?
S1: Yeah. Um, it has been a a very pleasant surprise,
S1: to put it mildly. Um, so, as you know, I
S1: finished the manuscript. Had no intentions of publishing it. Some friends, Uh,
S1: it got their hands on it. I was glad to
S1: let them read it. There are people who I trust,
S1: and I knew they would give me an honest assessment
S1: of it. They said, we want you to do something
S1: with this. We think you should. And so I said, okay, I'll,
S1: I'll give it a go. You know, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Um,
S1: but I knew I did not and never have, like
S1: the marketing part of any of the creative work I've
S1: ever done. Uh, I was a dismal failure at that
S1: as a musician. Um, but this time around, uh, I
S1: happen to be talking with a niece of mine who
S1: I adore. Uh, she was out in the marketplace. She's married,
S1: has three little children. She wanted a job that would
S1: allow her to stay at home. She had internet skills.
S1: She understands social media. She believes in me a lot
S1: more than I believe in myself. And she believed in
S1: the book. And so we worked out an arrangement that
S1: she would work for me and we and still we
S1: are the entire enterprise. But let me just let me
S1: just I may have mentioned this already. Did I talk
S1: about my friend Cubby Kobe Culbertson, who, uh, suggested.
S2: While we were recording.
S1: Okay, so, um, I hired Aaron. She oversaw the, uh,
S1: the graphic design. We we just did a crowdsourcing, um,
S1: you know, pitch, uh, and we found, I think the
S1: artist is from Romania. Uh, we had basically designed the
S1: cover and the layout ourselves. But anyway, Aaron took care
S1: of all of that. We got, uh, we finally got
S1: the final product. And, uh, in the dedication to the book, uh,
S1: references made to a friend of mine, Cubby Culbertson, who
S1: was this really wonderful entrepreneur up in Columbia, South Carolina.
S1: And it said something along the lines that I dedicate
S1: this book to cubby, uh, out of respect for our
S1: long friendship. And just as a small reminder that you
S1: promised if I dedicated it to you, you would buy
S1: 100 copies. Okay. It was meant as a joke. Yeah, well,
S1: cubby said, hey, I'm I'm I'm all in. I do
S1: want to have 100 copies of the book, but I
S1: don't want the the books myself. He said, Aaron, my niece, uh,
S1: I would like you to find 100 book clubs and
S1: send a copy to 100 book clubs and see if
S1: you could get them interested in reading the book. Well,
S1: Aaron discovered there are lots of book clubs. It's hard
S1: to figure out who the leader of the pack is
S1: for most of them, but she sent these 100 books
S1: out and book clubs started. Uh, they started to take
S1: a shine to the book, and and you know how
S1: that works. I mean, somebody in Birmingham, Alabama, has a
S1: friend in Austin, Texas, has a friend in San Francisco,
S1: has a friend in Saint Paul, has a friend in
S1: Portland kind of thing. And the book just it started
S1: going to lots of places via book clubs. Uh, we
S1: also had a small database, uh, harkening back to my
S1: musician days. And those people have always been so gracious, uh,
S1: to the work that I've done. And it's, it's a
S1: microscopic group of people, but they are so, so valiant, uh,
S1: for the work that that I've been blessed to do.
S1: And so, you know that, and then just nothing but
S1: the goodness of God and and providence. Uh, the book
S1: has kind of taken off and and, Jonathan, it has
S1: been a shock, uh, to us. And I will say
S1: this because I know that a lot of people who
S1: listen to this are probably aspiring writers or aspiring artists
S1: of one way or another. Um, and we don't like
S1: to talk about the marketing or the business end of
S1: what we do, but rarely do I go to a
S1: conference where we talk about the esoterics of creativity or
S1: theology of creativity. And I know in that room there
S1: are a lot of people who are asking the question
S1: to themselves, yeah, I get all of this, but how
S1: do I make a living doing this? And so, yes, uh,
S1: traditional publishers are still around. It's hard to get to them,
S1: especially if you don't have an agent. I've never had
S1: an agent. Uh, but Amazon, for all the ugly things
S1: that can be said about it, uh, has somewhat democratized
S1: the marketplace. Um, and so Aaron and I said, okay,
S1: we will let Amazon basically handle the distribution of the
S1: book and its print on demand, which means we don't
S1: have to keep any inventory. We do keep a handful
S1: of books at my website and sell a few there,
S1: but Amazon, as you know, sells 85 to 90% of 90%
S1: of the books in America. And so that's the big store.
S1: And it has proven, uh, you know, really workable for, uh,
S1: for myself. Now, tomorrow, the book, of course, could fall
S1: off the cliff and we will have had our, our
S1: glorious moment. But it's it has really been fun.
S2: You'll be down there with the rest of us if
S2: it falls.
S3: There you go. There you go. With a more wholesome company.
S1: You know, at some point.
S3: We all, we all.
S1: Take that dive off the cliff. But but so far,
S1: it's it's, uh, it's been really good. And and one
S1: of the things that has really blessed and encouraged us
S1: is that, um, people buy by the box. We we
S1: get as many orders for boxes as we do for
S1: individual copies of the book. And then those people, these
S1: goodwill ambassadors, some of whom we know and most of
S1: whom we don't, uh, they spread the book out and
S1: it's just like a, a feather pillow that had been
S1: broken open? We don't know where the feathers are landing.
S2: Yeah, well, the the, um, the people who I hear
S2: about the book from the people. So I mentioned earlier
S2: before we started recording that I have people who don't
S2: have any idea that I know you. Yeah. Just mention, hey,
S2: there's this book my we love and it's and it's
S2: every time it's it's book clubs. Yeah. Right. My book
S2: club is doing this.
S1: Yeah. I had no idea there were so many. Uh,
S1: and I've never, I've, I've never belonged to one myself. Um,
S1: and most of them tend to be female. Um, I
S1: think I've done one. One guys book club. I've done
S1: some mixed clubs. And what we really enjoy doing. Uh,
S1: not that I've done many of them just because I
S1: want to focus on writing, but rather than doing one
S1: book club, unless it's a zoom event, if I go
S1: somewhere to speak, we try to get like 10 or
S1: 20 book clubs together, and then you've got a room
S1: full of people and you know it. Just if I'm
S1: going to leave home, I want to have a, you know. Yeah,
S1: I want to make the best use of my time possible.
S1: But we're getting a lot of invitations. I wish I
S1: could do every one of them. Uh, if for no
S1: other reason than I just love to thank people for
S1: the kindness that they've shown to us. Uh, and now
S1: that I'm in a little bit of a break from
S1: first or, or the most recent draft to where I'll.
S1: I'll pick up in probably a few weeks, but we're
S1: going to try to do some during this spell. And, um,
S1: but if I do not happen to get to your
S1: book club, whoever you are out there and you've read it,
S1: God bless you. And I cannot thank you enough for, um,
S1: affirming the work that we've done. And keep up the
S1: good work.
S2: Well, I hope you'll keep up the good work. Thanks
S2: so much for being here. I just love what you do. And, uh,
S2: I've been so thrilled to see this book taken off.
S1: Thank you. Jonathan, I appreciate what you do. I know
S1: that you take the time to wrestle big ideas to
S1: the mat for the rest of us. Uh, I love
S1: your newsletter. Uh, I buy a lot of books on
S1: the strength of your recommendation. So there are authors who
S1: are indebted to you. You keep up the good work. Thanks.
S2: Alright, thanks. The habit Podcast is brought to you by
S2: the Rabbit Room, where art nourishes community and community nourishes art.
S2: You can support their work including this podcast, by becoming
S2: a member. Visit COVID-19. Special thanks as well to Taylor
S2: Leonard for letting us use her song diamonds as the
S2: theme music for The Habit podcast. You can learn more
S2: about Taylor and follow her work at Taylor Art.com. The
S2: Habit Membership is a library of resources for writers by me,
S2: Jonathan Rogers. More importantly, the habit is a hub of
S2: community where like minded writers gather to discuss their work
S2: and give each other a little more courage. Find out
S2: more at the Habit Co.