WEBVTT - Allen Levi is a Good Talker. 0:00:02.160 --> 0:00:04.600 You know how conversation is. It's the most wonderful thing. 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:09.120 It's unscripted, it's spontaneous, it's stream of consciousness. So I've 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:11.480 spent a lot of my life in conversation just chasing 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:16.520 rabbits down trails. And there's always laughter at some point. 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:18.639 I mean, I won't say that's the purpose of a 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:22.000 good conversation, but it sure is an ingredient of a 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:23.600 good conversation, right? 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:29.520 Welcome to the Habit podcast conversations with writers about writing. 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:33.839 I'm Jonathan Rogers, your host. This episode is brought to 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:36.879 you by the Habit Writer development cohorts. I've taught a 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:39.200 lot of writers over the last three decades, and here's 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:41.839 a recurring theme if you're a writer, it can be 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:44.320 hard to believe that readers need what you can bring. 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:47.479 But your voice, your point of view, your combination of 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.480 interests and insights well, those are exactly what the world 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:54.640 needs from you. I put together the Habit Writer Development Cohorts, 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:57.720 a six week writing intensive to help writers like you 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:01.820 recover your voice, build sustainable habits and produce work that 0:01:01.820 --> 0:01:06.300 sounds exactly like you. From May 19th through June 27th, 0:01:06.340 --> 0:01:10.420 you'll write alongside a small group of fellow writers with structure, coaching, 0:01:10.420 --> 0:01:13.459 and support every step of the way. Find out more 0:01:13.459 --> 0:01:19.660 and apply for a spot at the habitat. Speaking of voice, 0:01:19.660 --> 0:01:21.660 my guest for this episode has one of the most 0:01:21.660 --> 0:01:25.340 distinctive voices of any writer I know. Alan Levi is 0:01:25.340 --> 0:01:29.860 a songwriter, a memoirist, a fiction writer, and whatever genre 0:01:29.860 --> 0:01:32.220 or medium he works in, he always sounds like the 0:01:32.220 --> 0:01:35.500 person you're about to hear in the following conversation. Alan 0:01:35.500 --> 0:01:39.500 Levi always sounds like Alan Levi. His most recent book, 0:01:39.700 --> 0:01:43.740 a novel called Theo of Golden, is enjoying tremendous success. 0:01:44.380 --> 0:01:47.540 Alan remains humble, but his friends are mighty proud of him. 0:01:50.700 --> 0:01:53.540 Alan Levi, it's always a pleasure to talk to you, 0:01:53.540 --> 0:01:55.940 and I'm so glad to have you on The Habit podcast. 0:01:56.380 --> 0:01:58.380 Thank you. It's always a pleasure for me. Good to 0:01:58.380 --> 0:01:59.420 see you again, Jonathan. 0:01:59.420 --> 0:02:03.330 It's been so fun to see Theo of Golden taking 0:02:03.330 --> 0:02:08.050 off all over the place. Um, I keep hearing from people, uh, 0:02:08.530 --> 0:02:11.570 from various walks of life, uh, mentioning it, not having 0:02:11.570 --> 0:02:14.250 any idea. I know who you are or have any 0:02:14.250 --> 0:02:16.250 connection to you, and they just say, hey, you know 0:02:16.290 --> 0:02:18.530 this book Theo of Golden? And I said, I sure do, 0:02:18.530 --> 0:02:19.490 and it's really funny. 0:02:21.130 --> 0:02:23.450 Well, I love that. Yeah, it's been a great it's 0:02:23.450 --> 0:02:27.769 been a pleasant surprise. Shock might be a better word. 0:02:28.490 --> 0:02:30.850 As you and I discussed when the book first came out. 0:02:30.850 --> 0:02:33.329 It was it was just an experiment on my part 0:02:33.370 --> 0:02:35.770 initially to see if I could sit still long enough 0:02:35.770 --> 0:02:38.730 to write a long piece of fiction, and I'd had 0:02:38.730 --> 0:02:42.650 no intentions of publishing it. Um, so the fact that 0:02:42.810 --> 0:02:44.770 it ever saw the light of day is something of 0:02:44.770 --> 0:02:53.649 a surprise. But the response has been extremely encouraging. Gracious, shocking. Yeah, well. 0:02:54.930 --> 0:02:58.730 The reason I called you to ask to to talk is, 0:02:58.770 --> 0:03:00.470 I mean, we can certainly talk about Theory of Gold. 0:03:00.470 --> 0:03:04.190 We've done that in another episode. But I've been thinking 0:03:04.190 --> 0:03:07.030 a lot about voice lately. Uh, you know, I'm about 0:03:07.030 --> 0:03:09.790 to start a new cohort for writers and and helping 0:03:09.790 --> 0:03:13.950 writers see their what their voice is to to trust 0:03:13.950 --> 0:03:17.310 their their voice, to lean into it, to realize that 0:03:18.350 --> 0:03:21.190 learning to ventriloquize somebody else's voice is never going to 0:03:21.230 --> 0:03:26.470 get them where they need to be, right? Um, you 0:03:26.710 --> 0:03:29.310 you come to mind when I think of somebody who 0:03:29.310 --> 0:03:35.830 has a distinct voice your nonfiction, your fiction, your music, 0:03:36.150 --> 0:03:39.670 your conversation, just as a person. It all sounds like 0:03:39.670 --> 0:03:43.670 the same person. And I wanted to hear if you 0:03:43.670 --> 0:03:44.990 had anything to say about that. 0:03:45.430 --> 0:03:48.870 Well thank you. I'll take that as a great compliment, because. 0:03:49.070 --> 0:03:49.670 It's a compliment. 0:03:49.710 --> 0:03:52.830 Well, I know you do. Thank you. Uh, and the 0:03:52.830 --> 0:03:54.710 reason that I say thank you is I know of 0:03:54.710 --> 0:03:58.350 my own tendency to want to be other people. As 0:03:58.350 --> 0:04:01.930 a musician, I struggled with that a lot. There were musicians, 0:04:01.930 --> 0:04:04.090 singer songwriters who I really loved. I listened to the 0:04:04.090 --> 0:04:07.170 music a lot. It's interesting, over the 20 plus years 0:04:07.170 --> 0:04:10.250 that I did music full time, I got to the 0:04:10.250 --> 0:04:13.370 point that I rarely listened to any other music. I 0:04:13.410 --> 0:04:19.929 just because the tendency, uh, given my own broken places, uh, 0:04:19.970 --> 0:04:22.450 was to think, okay, I need to be like David Wilcox. 0:04:22.930 --> 0:04:24.810 I like that tuning. I like the way he does this. 0:04:24.810 --> 0:04:27.010 I'm going to. And you can hear a lot of 0:04:27.010 --> 0:04:29.570 his influence in my music. Sure. Uh, I want to 0:04:29.570 --> 0:04:31.849 be Andrew Peterson. I want to be Bebo Norman. I 0:04:31.850 --> 0:04:34.770 want to be James Taylor, that kind of thing. And 0:04:34.770 --> 0:04:39.170 so the the thought, uh, your observation that I might 0:04:39.170 --> 0:04:42.570 have a voice that is distinctly my own tells me 0:04:42.570 --> 0:04:45.810 maybe I've made a little progress against that temptation. I 0:04:45.810 --> 0:04:49.450 read a lot, and I'm not a good reader. I 0:04:49.450 --> 0:04:52.810 don't remember much of what I read. I don't read analytically. 0:04:52.810 --> 0:04:56.330 I don't read so that I can quote passages from 0:04:56.330 --> 0:04:59.750 other people. I read books to be changed. And I 0:04:59.750 --> 0:05:03.869 feel like that happens even when I don't, uh, don't 0:05:03.870 --> 0:05:07.070 don't pick up much that I can share with other people. Um, 0:05:08.070 --> 0:05:10.270 but Wendell Berry would be a good example of someone 0:05:10.270 --> 0:05:11.950 who I read and I think, gosh, I wish I 0:05:11.950 --> 0:05:14.630 could write like that. And his voice sounds a bit 0:05:14.630 --> 0:05:19.390 familiar to me. Yeah, he's a rural man. Yeah, he 0:05:19.430 --> 0:05:22.870 he grew up, as he said, around good talkers. I 0:05:22.910 --> 0:05:26.390 have had that same good fortune. Yeah. And, and when 0:05:26.390 --> 0:05:28.029 I read him, I think, gosh, I'm going to try 0:05:28.029 --> 0:05:31.430 to imitate Mr. Wendell Berry. Well, that is a fool's errand. 0:05:32.870 --> 0:05:34.750 And I think in, in the course of, you know, 0:05:34.790 --> 0:05:38.469 just writing blogs over the years, writing songs, I just 0:05:38.470 --> 0:05:42.790 realized that the pretense, if nobody else notices, it is 0:05:42.790 --> 0:05:45.589 very obvious to me I'm trying to be someone else. 0:05:46.150 --> 0:05:49.950 And as as I've written really just two books at 0:05:49.950 --> 0:05:53.510 this point, uh, a memoir called The Last Sweet Mile, 0:05:53.510 --> 0:05:56.150 about the last year that I lived with my brother 0:05:56.150 --> 0:05:59.700 before he passed away. And then, uh, Theo of Golden. 0:06:00.500 --> 0:06:03.700 I just realized it's too hard to try to imitate somebody, 0:06:04.220 --> 0:06:09.540 and it's too self-defeating. It's no fun. And so I, 0:06:09.580 --> 0:06:12.140 you know, I, I don't know that I write in 0:06:12.140 --> 0:06:15.380 my own voice intentionally. It's just the only voice I've got. Yeah. 0:06:15.420 --> 0:06:17.140 And so, so and. 0:06:17.180 --> 0:06:17.380 Yeah. 0:06:17.380 --> 0:06:17.860 And it's. 0:06:18.339 --> 0:06:19.860 Well. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. 0:06:19.900 --> 0:06:20.740 No, no. Go ahead, go ahead. 0:06:20.779 --> 0:06:24.099 I would just say, when you say it's the only 0:06:24.100 --> 0:06:32.380 voice you got, I, I yes, I, I understand that 0:06:33.140 --> 0:06:36.700 that's not. But the problem is you've got to get 0:06:36.700 --> 0:06:38.820 to a point where you're willing to say that that 0:06:38.820 --> 0:06:40.940 one voice I've got, that's what I have to give 0:06:40.940 --> 0:06:41.580 to the world. 0:06:41.860 --> 0:06:42.340 Yeah. 0:06:42.660 --> 0:06:46.779 And, you know, you don't you don't have Wendell Berry 0:06:46.779 --> 0:06:48.460 to give to the world. Wendell Berry has what Wendell 0:06:48.460 --> 0:06:50.500 Berry can give, and you've got what you can give. 0:06:50.540 --> 0:06:51.059 That's all. 0:06:51.060 --> 0:06:53.339 And that's all the world needs from you, by the way, 0:06:53.380 --> 0:06:54.500 is what you can give. 0:06:54.820 --> 0:06:55.260 Yeah. 0:06:55.300 --> 0:06:59.880 And nobody's mad at you. That you. that you can't be, 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:04.280 you know. Lucy Shaw or Stephen King, they they do 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:05.799 what they do, and you do what you do. 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:09.480 Yeah. Or Jonathan Rogers, you know, I think I've had the, 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:14.680 what would I say, the ambiguous good fortune of of 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.960 having no one to work with me. Mhm. Uh, there 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:19.960 are lots and lots and lots of times you and 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:21.960 I have talked about this before, that I have wished 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:24.840 that I could float something that I'm writing by someone 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:29.000 who writes. Yeah. Up in Nashville, y'all are. Y'all are 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:33.200 just swimming in a pool of talent. Uh, in Hamilton, Georgia. 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.720 It's real hard to come by. There are talented people here, 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:40.320 believe me. And those good talkers have a talent of 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:43.960 their own. That is. That is enviable. But I think 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:48.080 the fact that I've had to work by myself has, uh, 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:52.160 it may have shielded me from being too much influenced 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:57.040 by outside voices, you know, because, believe me, if somebody 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.580 were to read what I'm writing and say you need 0:07:59.580 --> 0:08:02.540 to do ABC, I would probably say, okay, you know, 0:08:02.540 --> 0:08:05.980 I don't. I'll do ABC and I don't know that 0:08:05.980 --> 0:08:08.860 that wouldn't corrupt the voice that I'm trying to write in, 0:08:08.860 --> 0:08:11.580 which is my own. Uh, there have been times when 0:08:11.580 --> 0:08:15.940 people have read things and and they will, um, you know, 0:08:15.940 --> 0:08:19.500 they will offer a suggestion. And I realize that's probably correct, 0:08:20.700 --> 0:08:24.220 but that's not the way I. I see that sentence, 0:08:24.220 --> 0:08:28.940 that thought, that phrase give you a real simple example. Um, 0:08:29.860 --> 0:08:33.740 when I was writing The Last Sweet Mile about my brother, uh, 0:08:33.740 --> 0:08:37.340 there was a section of the book about my brother's laughter. 0:08:38.059 --> 0:08:39.900 People ask me what I miss about him. Most of all. 0:08:39.900 --> 0:08:42.500 That's it. His humor, his laughter, the way that he 0:08:42.500 --> 0:08:45.420 could pull laughter out of me. But I was telling 0:08:45.420 --> 0:08:51.140 a story in it, and it was about snakes. And 0:08:51.140 --> 0:08:53.740 how we love to talk about snakes down here. If 0:08:53.780 --> 0:08:56.500 you're ever in a, you know, a meat and three 0:08:56.540 --> 0:09:00.929 down here and the conversation starts to wither. All you 0:09:00.929 --> 0:09:03.450 have to do is mention a snake and it lights 0:09:03.450 --> 0:09:05.530 up real quick. Well, I was telling a story about 0:09:05.530 --> 0:09:08.370 a snake, and at some point in that I was 0:09:08.370 --> 0:09:11.250 talking about how I work in the woods by myself, 0:09:11.250 --> 0:09:15.569 which I do very, very regularly, and especially in summertime. 0:09:16.330 --> 0:09:20.450 Every stick looks like a snake. And so it's nerve 0:09:20.490 --> 0:09:23.410 wracking to be in the woods by myself, knowing that 0:09:23.410 --> 0:09:27.010 these serpents are out there and in. In the story, 0:09:27.010 --> 0:09:30.570 I made the statement that it's amazing how many days 0:09:30.610 --> 0:09:33.370 have been I don't know how I said it, uh, 0:09:33.410 --> 0:09:37.970 interrupted by a plain old piece of tree wood. Okay. 0:09:38.210 --> 0:09:41.250 You know that because you got country in you. Yeah. 0:09:41.290 --> 0:09:42.770 But someone read that and say, well, why do you 0:09:42.770 --> 0:09:45.010 say tree? Why do you say tree? Wood. Why don't 0:09:45.010 --> 0:09:47.449 you just say wood? I mean, if it's from. If 0:09:47.450 --> 0:09:50.089 it's wood, it's from a tree. And I said, well, 0:09:50.090 --> 0:09:52.410 that's how we say it. Yeah. Tree wood is how 0:09:52.410 --> 0:09:56.090 we say it. And that's now in a moment of weakness, 0:09:56.090 --> 0:09:57.949 I might have said, well, yeah, that's kind of stupid. 0:09:57.950 --> 0:10:01.150 It's redundant. Let me take that out. Yeah, but that's 0:10:01.150 --> 0:10:04.310 very authentic to this area, and that's very authentic to 0:10:04.550 --> 0:10:09.110 a lunch conversation that I would have with anybody down here. Yeah. 0:10:09.150 --> 0:10:12.709 So so maybe I've been blessed by living in a desert. 0:10:13.270 --> 0:10:16.270 You know, where I don't have people who interrupt too 0:10:16.270 --> 0:10:18.910 much the flow of what I'm doing. Having said that, 0:10:20.030 --> 0:10:22.950 I need somebody like that. And I'm working on a 0:10:22.950 --> 0:10:25.429 book now. A sequel to Theo. And I've been talking 0:10:25.429 --> 0:10:27.910 with my niece, and I said, we have got to 0:10:27.910 --> 0:10:29.870 have somebody who really knows what they're doing. Look at 0:10:29.870 --> 0:10:31.910 this before I put it out, if I put it 0:10:31.910 --> 0:10:34.950 out at all. Um, but but I think up to 0:10:34.990 --> 0:10:38.349 this point, I have been well served by the fact 0:10:38.510 --> 0:10:40.709 that the only voice in my head when I'm writing 0:10:40.710 --> 0:10:43.189 is my voice. Yeah. And you know what I've seen? 0:10:43.630 --> 0:10:46.230 Yeah. I tell you what, you know, I, I grew 0:10:46.230 --> 0:10:47.790 up among good talkers, too. 0:10:47.830 --> 0:10:48.350 Sure. 0:10:48.390 --> 0:10:52.309 And I, um, went, you know, went to Vanderbilt, got 0:10:52.309 --> 0:10:57.130 a PhD in, uh, British literature. And that was a 0:10:57.130 --> 0:11:01.250 good experience and I learned a lot. But to become 0:11:01.250 --> 0:11:02.610 the writer I wanted to be, I had to unlearn 0:11:02.610 --> 0:11:06.729 a lot of that and settle back in and realize 0:11:06.730 --> 0:11:09.610 that I learned a lot of what I need to 0:11:09.650 --> 0:11:13.170 know to be a storyteller, you know, not at Vanderbilt, 0:11:13.530 --> 0:11:18.250 but at the at the table with the people. I 0:11:18.290 --> 0:11:22.690 you know, I had some just some raconteurs, you know, 0:11:22.730 --> 0:11:26.490 in my, in my world that really made it, uh, 0:11:27.490 --> 0:11:32.530 to lean into what I had grown up doing all 0:11:32.530 --> 0:11:33.290 the time. 0:11:33.530 --> 0:11:34.130 Right. 0:11:34.170 --> 0:11:37.010 Was really transformative for me. Tell me about your good 0:11:37.010 --> 0:11:40.650 talkers in your in your world. 0:11:40.690 --> 0:11:44.970 Yeah. Yes. I mean, uh, I mean, from the start, 0:11:45.170 --> 0:11:48.130 I mean, from the cradle. My dad is a forester. 0:11:48.610 --> 0:11:51.370 Uh huh. Uh, and so he owned a sawmill, a 0:11:51.370 --> 0:11:56.310 couple of sawmills. He owned, uh, logging trucks and all 0:11:56.350 --> 0:11:59.230 of that sort of thing. So it was a very 0:11:59.230 --> 0:12:02.270 blue collar world. You know, grease on the shirt, dirt 0:12:02.309 --> 0:12:04.430 under the fingernails kind of thing. I worked at his 0:12:04.429 --> 0:12:06.990 sawmill one summer. I worked with the Pope Wooding crew 0:12:07.030 --> 0:12:09.550 one summer. I think he made me take those jobs 0:12:09.550 --> 0:12:11.510 so I would study hard when I went to school. 0:12:11.910 --> 0:12:15.309 And it worked pretty good. But, you know, all during 0:12:15.309 --> 0:12:17.510 the day when you shut everything down to either sharpen 0:12:17.510 --> 0:12:20.910 the saws or have lunch or fix something that's broken, 0:12:21.309 --> 0:12:25.830 you just start talking and. And it's country talk. The 0:12:25.830 --> 0:12:29.670 grammar is not right. Uh, the syntax is a word 0:12:29.670 --> 0:12:31.830 that would never cross the minds of most of the 0:12:31.830 --> 0:12:34.150 guys that I grew up with. Uh, and then my 0:12:34.150 --> 0:12:36.750 friends down in Columbus, Georgia, which is a real to me, 0:12:36.750 --> 0:12:40.829 a real city, uh, even they, uh, had enough country 0:12:40.870 --> 0:12:43.750 still in them because they, their dads had similar sorts 0:12:43.750 --> 0:12:46.790 of jobs. A lot of them. Yeah. Um, you know, 0:12:47.190 --> 0:12:49.550 you know how conversation is. It's the most wonderful thing. 0:12:49.550 --> 0:12:54.110 It's unscripted, it's spontaneous, it's stream of consciousness. So I've 0:12:54.110 --> 0:12:56.580 spent a lot of my life in conversation, just chasing 0:12:56.580 --> 0:13:01.580 rabbits down trails, and there's always laughter at some point. 0:13:01.620 --> 0:13:03.700 I mean, I won't say that's the purpose of a 0:13:03.700 --> 0:13:07.020 good conversation, but it sure is an ingredient of a 0:13:07.020 --> 0:13:08.740 good conversation, right? 0:13:08.780 --> 0:13:12.500 I is it possible that it's the purpose? 0:13:12.780 --> 0:13:14.420 I think I think. 0:13:14.700 --> 0:13:19.260 I mean, I mean, the one of the ways that, 0:13:19.260 --> 0:13:21.660 you know, that a thing is important is that it 0:13:21.740 --> 0:13:25.340 it's not a means towards something else. Right? If it's 0:13:25.380 --> 0:13:27.660 if it's an end in itself, like if you say 0:13:27.700 --> 0:13:31.260 laughter is the best medicine, you suddenly turned laughter into 0:13:31.300 --> 0:13:33.100 something less than what it really is. 0:13:33.140 --> 0:13:33.900 Amen. Good, good. 0:13:33.940 --> 0:13:37.140 Because. Because that same laughter. Yeah. That that it's a 0:13:37.140 --> 0:13:38.939 means toward good health or whatever. 0:13:38.980 --> 0:13:40.020 Right, right, right. 0:13:40.059 --> 0:13:41.700 Uh, I mean, it's it's an okay thing to say. 0:13:41.700 --> 0:13:43.460 I it didn't really hurt my feelings. People say laughter 0:13:43.460 --> 0:13:45.900 is the best medicine, but I think it's it's a 0:13:46.740 --> 0:13:51.740 that joy. That's a clue. It's a it's the beginnings 0:13:51.740 --> 0:13:53.980 of what we're made for in the first place and 0:13:53.980 --> 0:13:55.040 what we're headed toward. 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:58.160 Yeah, I love that. That's a great thought. Yeah. The 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:00.760 idea that, you know, we we and I would say 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:04.520 laughter almost in quotation marks, laughter as representative of a life, 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.320 of flourishing, of joy. I was reading this morning in 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:11.440 Proverbs eight, kind of the the Proverbs version of the 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:15.120 creation story, where wisdom says, I was there from the 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:18.680 very start. I was there before anything was made. But 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:22.239 a little farther down in the passage, uh, wisdom says, 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.440 I rejoiced at everything that was. I delighted in it. 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:30.080 And to me that that includes laughter. I mean, I 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:33.400 can almost see wisdom personified as this voice that laughs 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:37.520 when God made the cockatoo, or the bird, or the 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:40.760 dogwood tree or anything like that. And conversation, I think, 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:43.400 is like that. C.S. Lewis writes, as you know, about 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.320 happiness as an end. He says that if we aim 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:49.360 for happiness, we probably won't get there. If we make 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:51.440 that our goal, we just live our lives in such 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:53.920 a way that happiness is the fruit of it. And 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.860 I think that conversation maybe works that way, that we 0:14:56.900 --> 0:15:00.380 we converse with people who we're comfortable with, who speak 0:15:00.380 --> 0:15:05.900 in their own voices and invariably, laughter in that broad sense, uh, 0:15:06.420 --> 0:15:08.820 is the result of it. It may be maybe not 0:15:08.820 --> 0:15:12.220 an out loud burst of laughter, but there's joy, there's delight, 0:15:12.260 --> 0:15:15.300 there's pleasure in it, and there's connection. I mean, you know, 0:15:15.340 --> 0:15:17.700 these these people that I've worked with who are the 0:15:17.700 --> 0:15:21.740 good talkers over the years? Um, you know, it really 0:15:21.780 --> 0:15:24.380 it creates a bond between people that we can have 0:15:24.380 --> 0:15:27.500 a conversation, be honest, laugh at the same things, disagree 0:15:27.500 --> 0:15:31.180 about things. I had lunch yesterday with, uh, with two 0:15:31.180 --> 0:15:34.100 good friends of mine. One is, uh, he's a justice 0:15:34.100 --> 0:15:36.620 with the Georgia Court of Appeals, and the other is 0:15:36.620 --> 0:15:40.260 a former law partner. And so they're pretty bright guys. 0:15:41.060 --> 0:15:44.180 But even there, they we started lunch, and I hadn't 0:15:44.180 --> 0:15:46.060 seen these fellows in a while. And one of them 0:15:46.340 --> 0:15:50.300 started sharing a story. And, uh, about five minutes later, 0:15:50.300 --> 0:15:52.100 when he finished the story, I said, you know, this 0:15:52.100 --> 0:15:55.330 has brought to mind how much I miss lawyers because 0:15:55.330 --> 0:15:58.410 they're such good storytellers. Yeah, and the ones that really 0:15:58.410 --> 0:16:01.770 do it well, I mean, they are the most wonderful conversationalists. 0:16:02.090 --> 0:16:05.650 And they're working with cases, human conflict, you know. But 0:16:06.730 --> 0:16:10.210 so good talkers doesn't necessarily mean that they're blue collar 0:16:10.730 --> 0:16:15.330 or that they're, you know, ordinary common folk. There's some very, 0:16:15.330 --> 0:16:19.290 very educated people who still got a lot of that 0:16:19.330 --> 0:16:21.010 in themselves. The good lawyers do. 0:16:21.410 --> 0:16:24.010 Yeah. Yeah. So, Alan, all this is making me think 0:16:24.010 --> 0:16:26.370 about a time I was in graduate school at Vanderbilt. 0:16:26.370 --> 0:16:30.130 And you know how graduate school goes. Very theoretical. Um, 0:16:30.250 --> 0:16:34.730 came home to Warner Robins, Georgia, for Easter and was 0:16:34.730 --> 0:16:39.250 at a was at a Easter egg hunt. And there 0:16:39.250 --> 0:16:42.450 were kids swirling around doing their Easter egg thing, and 0:16:42.450 --> 0:16:45.770 there was a knot of men standing around telling stories 0:16:45.770 --> 0:16:48.730 about dogs they had known and tractors and things like that. 0:16:48.890 --> 0:16:49.530 Mhm. 0:16:49.570 --> 0:16:54.470 And I stood outside the group and I had, you know, 0:16:54.510 --> 0:16:57.950 some thought like, ah, well, this is how, um, you know, 0:16:58.110 --> 0:17:00.550 narrative is how people make meaning, you know, some sort 0:17:00.590 --> 0:17:04.190 of theoretical thought. And then I then I immediately thought, well, 0:17:04.190 --> 0:17:07.350 this is, this is silly for me to stand outside 0:17:07.350 --> 0:17:10.550 the group and think, I understand what these men are 0:17:10.550 --> 0:17:14.110 doing more than they understand themselves. Yeah. What they're doing. 0:17:14.350 --> 0:17:14.750 Yeah. 0:17:15.190 --> 0:17:18.470 And, uh, I think I mentioned this earlier, so much 0:17:18.470 --> 0:17:22.590 of of my learning how to do the work of 0:17:22.590 --> 0:17:27.790 a writer, uh, has been avoiding the temptation to to 0:17:28.109 --> 0:17:34.910 get critical distance and and learning how to to lean 0:17:34.910 --> 0:17:35.629 back in. 0:17:36.070 --> 0:17:39.389 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's an interesting point, isn't it, 0:17:39.390 --> 0:17:42.470 that we can become so academic or so absorbed in 0:17:42.750 --> 0:17:46.109 methodology and things of that sort, that sort that we 0:17:46.109 --> 0:17:48.830 forget the spirit of the work that we're doing and 0:17:48.830 --> 0:17:52.710 maybe the conversation that we're invited to be a part of, uh, 0:17:52.770 --> 0:17:55.210 You know, you and I began this conversation without really 0:17:55.210 --> 0:17:59.730 defining what a writer's voice is. Um. 0:18:00.210 --> 0:18:02.330 And I think it did. We. 0:18:02.450 --> 0:18:05.530 Yeah. And and I'm not even sure, honestly, uh, that 0:18:05.530 --> 0:18:07.850 I could attach a definition to it other than to 0:18:07.890 --> 0:18:10.690 liken it to the the spoken voice. I mean, we 0:18:10.690 --> 0:18:14.010 all sound different. Yeah. But but I do think that 0:18:14.010 --> 0:18:17.530 voice is more than just our manner of delivery. Uh, 0:18:17.530 --> 0:18:20.130 the way that we construct sentences, that sort of thing. 0:18:20.130 --> 0:18:22.850 I do think that there is a spirit with which 0:18:22.850 --> 0:18:26.410 we communicate that that contributes or maybe largely defines what 0:18:26.410 --> 0:18:29.250 the speaker's voice is. I'll tell you a criticism that 0:18:29.250 --> 0:18:32.010 I've gotten over the years as a songwriter. And and 0:18:32.010 --> 0:18:36.970 now even as a novice writer of fiction. Uh, I 0:18:37.010 --> 0:18:39.090 will I will hearken back to a conversation that I 0:18:39.090 --> 0:18:41.370 had years ago with a friend who was very knowledgeable 0:18:41.369 --> 0:18:44.970 about the the music industry and whatnot. Uh, was not 0:18:44.970 --> 0:18:48.290 a believer. Uh, and he was very clear about that. 0:18:48.290 --> 0:18:51.810 But he said, man, you've got a lot of talent 0:18:51.810 --> 0:18:55.669 as a songwriter. Uh, and you could probably really make 0:18:55.670 --> 0:19:01.430 something of yourself, but you're just so unrealistic in your songwriting. 0:19:01.430 --> 0:19:04.430 And what he was saying was, you have got too 0:19:04.590 --> 0:19:09.230 much hope in your songs. And so I kind of 0:19:09.270 --> 0:19:14.070 took the criticism as a positive. Yeah. Because I think 0:19:14.070 --> 0:19:17.230 that the spirit with which I hope I write, and 0:19:17.230 --> 0:19:18.790 I think that this might be true for all of 0:19:18.790 --> 0:19:22.230 us as followers of Christ, uh, we are bound by 0:19:22.230 --> 0:19:24.830 some bookends, uh, one being the great command that we 0:19:24.830 --> 0:19:27.350 love God and love our neighbors as ourselves, and the 0:19:27.350 --> 0:19:29.990 other that we are trying to declare something to the world. 0:19:30.510 --> 0:19:34.070 And for me, hope is a component of that. So 0:19:34.070 --> 0:19:37.590 one of our favorite writers, you and me both Flannery O'Connor, uh, 0:19:37.590 --> 0:19:41.430 observed one time that that to make us aware, us 0:19:41.430 --> 0:19:45.390 being the reading public, aware of just how broken we are. Uh, 0:19:45.390 --> 0:19:48.750 she said, I have to write these drastic storylines with 0:19:48.750 --> 0:19:55.139 grotesque characters and these really atrocious, uh, atrocious narratives. You know, 0:19:55.660 --> 0:19:59.340 I think that the at the opposite end of the spectrum, 0:19:59.340 --> 0:20:04.300 sometimes we have to write almost drastically, in a positive sense, 0:20:04.580 --> 0:20:07.740 to affirm the potential that we're capable of. And so 0:20:07.740 --> 0:20:10.020 I've had, uh, not many, but I've had a couple 0:20:10.060 --> 0:20:12.100 of folks who've said your story about the old man 0:20:12.100 --> 0:20:15.980 from Portugal, Theo is way too positive. It's not realistic. 0:20:15.980 --> 0:20:19.340 It could never happen in the world. And I would 0:20:19.340 --> 0:20:22.020 push back against that. I don't think that it's incredible. 0:20:22.020 --> 0:20:25.420 And I know people who who are pretty much like 0:20:25.420 --> 0:20:28.420 the old man from Portugal, my brother now deceased, being 0:20:28.420 --> 0:20:31.900 one of them. Um, but, uh, but I think that 0:20:31.900 --> 0:20:34.940 there is to be a spirit in the writer's voice. 0:20:34.940 --> 0:20:38.139 If the writer is a follower of Christ, uh, that 0:20:38.140 --> 0:20:41.380 ought to be distinct. It should be honest. It can 0:20:41.380 --> 0:20:45.219 be severe, it can be critical. It can be everything that, uh, 0:20:45.220 --> 0:20:48.580 that any other writer's voice has. Um, but it has 0:20:48.580 --> 0:20:51.719 that plus what the gospel brings to us, which is 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:54.240 hope and a belief that, uh, that there is goodness 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:56.240 in the world. And there is a good story that 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:57.480 we get to be a part of. 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:01.679 Yeah, yeah. When I said earlier that that you're everything 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:04.720 that I know of, of your work, whatever genre still 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:08.080 feels like Alan Levi. That's really what I'm talking about. 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:11.920 Even more than, you know, diction or. Yeah. Sentence structure 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:14.760 or whatever. It's it's it it always sounds like, uh, 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:15.919 it always sounds like you. 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.720 Thank you. I will take that as a compliment. I 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:22.360 you know, I think I think the danger is that, uh, 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:25.280 at some point, if the voice becomes entirely predictable or 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:28.679 if it becomes too monochromatic or too narrow. Uh, I 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:31.800 would hate to be a writer that is so intent 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:35.640 on on propping up the goodness of life that I'm 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:39.680 dishonest about the broken parts. And I've been pleasantly surprised 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:42.320 with the Theo book that one of the chapters and 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:45.000 it was it was added literally 2 or 3 days 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:48.360 before I finished the last manuscript. It's a short chapter 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:52.140 about sadness and, um, a lot of people who have 0:21:52.140 --> 0:21:54.700 read the book have commented that that I felt like 0:21:54.700 --> 0:21:57.820 I had permission, after reading that chapter to be sad 0:21:58.220 --> 0:22:00.380 and to acknowledge that there is this part deep down 0:22:00.380 --> 0:22:02.619 inside me. As much as I want to be hopeful 0:22:02.900 --> 0:22:05.620 and positive about the world and life as we know it, 0:22:05.619 --> 0:22:08.179 that just feels like it. I can't go there. But 0:22:08.180 --> 0:22:10.500 but this old man saying sadness is a part of 0:22:10.500 --> 0:22:13.260 life that we all have to wrestle to the mat. Um, 0:22:13.619 --> 0:22:15.820 it it opened a door for them. And so I 0:22:15.820 --> 0:22:17.780 would hope that, you know. And I know you you 0:22:17.780 --> 0:22:20.340 would feel the same way. Uh, any good writer, I think, would. 0:22:20.380 --> 0:22:22.420 We want to be honest. We want to be credible 0:22:22.420 --> 0:22:26.540 if we're writing realistic fiction and and we we want 0:22:26.540 --> 0:22:29.300 to say, yeah, the world is broken, but. Yeah. And 0:22:29.300 --> 0:22:31.699 then on the other side of the. But, you know, we, we, 0:22:31.980 --> 0:22:34.340 we try to, to put life as we know it 0:22:34.500 --> 0:22:35.540 in focus. 0:22:36.300 --> 0:22:39.580 Well, I think, uh, it's, I find it helpful to 0:22:39.580 --> 0:22:42.180 think in terms of there's things that are true about 0:22:42.180 --> 0:22:43.820 the world, and there are things that are truer. 0:22:44.380 --> 0:22:45.780 Yeah. Well said. 0:22:45.820 --> 0:22:51.530 You know, and so all and I think maybe that's 0:22:51.530 --> 0:22:56.490 maybe that's the, the the difference. I don't I hesitate 0:22:56.490 --> 0:23:01.129 to speak in too broad generalities. But you know, I, 0:23:02.490 --> 0:23:08.570 I read writers from all sorts of, you know, faith positions. 0:23:08.609 --> 0:23:09.129 Right? 0:23:09.290 --> 0:23:15.090 Um, and from all over the place, people say things 0:23:15.090 --> 0:23:16.369 that are true about the world. 0:23:16.609 --> 0:23:16.929 Yeah. 0:23:16.970 --> 0:23:20.050 Right. And helpful and useful. And I also think that 0:23:20.650 --> 0:23:22.330 many times when I read those, I think, yeah, but 0:23:22.330 --> 0:23:23.610 there's something truer than that. 0:23:23.690 --> 0:23:24.210 Yeah. 0:23:24.250 --> 0:23:27.370 And I would like, as a writer, I would like 0:23:27.369 --> 0:23:31.210 to live in the, the parts that I believe are truer. 0:23:31.609 --> 0:23:32.090 Yeah. 0:23:32.130 --> 0:23:35.489 But that doesn't discount, um, I mean, that's, that's the 0:23:35.490 --> 0:23:37.850 nature of the gospel is is there are. 0:23:38.330 --> 0:23:38.970 Amen. 0:23:40.210 --> 0:23:43.330 There's some there's some, uh, news that's not so great. 0:23:43.650 --> 0:23:43.970 Yeah. 0:23:44.010 --> 0:23:45.370 That's right. Within the good news. 0:23:45.609 --> 0:23:47.890 It's interesting. When I had that conversation with the musician 0:23:47.890 --> 0:23:51.510 friend years and years ago. I don't remember if I 0:23:51.510 --> 0:23:56.150 actually told him this, but I sure thought it. Um, yes. 0:23:56.150 --> 0:23:59.310 Maybe the perspective that I bring to the songwriting that 0:23:59.310 --> 0:24:03.109 I do is unrealistically positive, but I believe in the 0:24:03.150 --> 0:24:06.390 God of the prophets, and you would really not want 0:24:06.390 --> 0:24:10.109 me to write the truth and the, the the strong 0:24:10.109 --> 0:24:12.470 language of the of the prophets. You would see how 0:24:12.510 --> 0:24:16.030 wide my perspective or a believer's perspective is of life, 0:24:16.390 --> 0:24:21.070 that we're in a in a real dilemma. And, and 0:24:21.070 --> 0:24:23.469 I've written some, you know, some things that were darker. Uh, 0:24:23.470 --> 0:24:26.629 but I don't, I don't I hope I will never, um, 0:24:26.950 --> 0:24:30.030 fall into the temptation of writing something dark for the 0:24:30.470 --> 0:24:32.190 sake of being thought serious. 0:24:32.670 --> 0:24:33.070 Hmm. 0:24:33.270 --> 0:24:35.030 I read this interesting book. I may have mentioned this 0:24:35.030 --> 0:24:38.510 to you before. It's by David Halverson called the 50s. Okay. 0:24:38.550 --> 0:24:40.390 And it's a it's about the decade of the 50s, 0:24:40.390 --> 0:24:42.830 and it's a fascinating read. And you, you kind of 0:24:42.869 --> 0:24:46.390 get the, the, uh, the sense that everything that we're 0:24:46.390 --> 0:24:49.470 dealing with today in the culture at large had its 0:24:49.609 --> 0:24:52.050 roots back in the 50s after the Second World War. 0:24:52.130 --> 0:24:54.409 Just so much happened during that decade. But one of 0:24:54.410 --> 0:24:57.210 the things that was mentioned is that Elvis Presley was 0:24:57.210 --> 0:24:59.690 one of the, uh, he was one of the signature 0:24:59.690 --> 0:25:03.570 characters of that decade. Uh, and just the way that 0:25:03.570 --> 0:25:08.729 music changed, race relations changed in some ways. Uh, but 0:25:08.730 --> 0:25:11.050 one of the things about Elvis Presley that he learned 0:25:11.050 --> 0:25:13.010 early on in his career was, if you want to 0:25:13.010 --> 0:25:18.410 be taken seriously, do not smile. And so and and really, 0:25:18.450 --> 0:25:20.290 I mean, you know, he had kind of a snarky 0:25:20.330 --> 0:25:22.210 sort of smile. And every now and then he would 0:25:22.210 --> 0:25:27.649 let loose with it. But but he realized, okay, James Dean, uh, 0:25:27.690 --> 0:25:31.570 Marlon Brando, these tough guys, they're the ones that are 0:25:31.570 --> 0:25:35.970 getting the attention. And I think sometimes that maybe as creatives, 0:25:36.010 --> 0:25:40.850 whether we're writing or painting or whatever, uh, we, we're 0:25:40.850 --> 0:25:44.850 tempted to create that persona about ourselves, whether it's whether 0:25:44.850 --> 0:25:48.410 it's true or not. And, um, and I hope that 0:25:48.450 --> 0:25:50.989 I hope I never fall into that myself, because it 0:25:50.990 --> 0:25:53.390 would be to abandon a hope about which I am 0:25:53.990 --> 0:25:58.110 hopelessly hopeful. I just believe. I believe in it desperately. 0:25:58.109 --> 0:26:01.070 And I think the world wants to have hope. Uh, 0:26:01.070 --> 0:26:03.150 and write accordingly. 0:26:03.670 --> 0:26:07.750 Yeah, I love it. Hey. Real quick. I don't usually, uh, 0:26:07.750 --> 0:26:14.190 ask about sort of, uh, publishing business things, but can 0:26:14.190 --> 0:26:17.230 you tell me last time we talked about it, really? 0:26:17.270 --> 0:26:19.270 Probably less than a year ago, we had an episode 0:26:19.270 --> 0:26:21.430 about Theo of Gold, and then it was just making 0:26:21.430 --> 0:26:24.229 its way into the world. And in the meantime, it 0:26:24.230 --> 0:26:26.990 is just. I hear about it all over the place. 0:26:27.230 --> 0:26:27.510 Yeah. 0:26:27.550 --> 0:26:31.669 People are reading this book and this book. The self-published book. 0:26:31.710 --> 0:26:34.669 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how did it how did that happen? 0:26:34.710 --> 0:26:35.669 About what happened? 0:26:36.030 --> 0:26:40.350 Yeah. Um, it has been a a very pleasant surprise, 0:26:40.350 --> 0:26:44.869 to put it mildly. Um, so, as you know, I 0:26:44.910 --> 0:26:49.060 finished the manuscript. Had no intentions of publishing it. Some friends, Uh, 0:26:49.060 --> 0:26:51.340 it got their hands on it. I was glad to 0:26:51.380 --> 0:26:53.100 let them read it. There are people who I trust, 0:26:53.100 --> 0:26:55.180 and I knew they would give me an honest assessment 0:26:55.180 --> 0:26:56.859 of it. They said, we want you to do something 0:26:56.859 --> 0:27:00.260 with this. We think you should. And so I said, okay, I'll, 0:27:00.300 --> 0:27:04.540 I'll give it a go. You know, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Um, 0:27:04.700 --> 0:27:07.220 but I knew I did not and never have, like 0:27:07.220 --> 0:27:09.380 the marketing part of any of the creative work I've 0:27:09.380 --> 0:27:12.220 ever done. Uh, I was a dismal failure at that 0:27:12.220 --> 0:27:16.260 as a musician. Um, but this time around, uh, I 0:27:16.300 --> 0:27:18.380 happen to be talking with a niece of mine who 0:27:18.380 --> 0:27:22.220 I adore. Uh, she was out in the marketplace. She's married, 0:27:22.260 --> 0:27:24.780 has three little children. She wanted a job that would 0:27:24.780 --> 0:27:28.540 allow her to stay at home. She had internet skills. 0:27:28.700 --> 0:27:32.140 She understands social media. She believes in me a lot 0:27:32.140 --> 0:27:34.939 more than I believe in myself. And she believed in 0:27:34.940 --> 0:27:37.900 the book. And so we worked out an arrangement that 0:27:37.900 --> 0:27:41.100 she would work for me and we and still we 0:27:41.100 --> 0:27:44.139 are the entire enterprise. But let me just let me 0:27:44.140 --> 0:27:46.660 just I may have mentioned this already. Did I talk 0:27:46.660 --> 0:27:49.680 about my friend Cubby Kobe Culbertson, who, uh, suggested. 0:27:49.680 --> 0:27:50.560 While we were recording. 0:27:50.920 --> 0:27:58.240 Okay, so, um, I hired Aaron. She oversaw the, uh, 0:27:58.240 --> 0:28:01.919 the graphic design. We we just did a crowdsourcing, um, 0:28:02.119 --> 0:28:04.840 you know, pitch, uh, and we found, I think the 0:28:04.840 --> 0:28:08.399 artist is from Romania. Uh, we had basically designed the 0:28:08.400 --> 0:28:11.120 cover and the layout ourselves. But anyway, Aaron took care 0:28:11.119 --> 0:28:13.680 of all of that. We got, uh, we finally got 0:28:13.680 --> 0:28:18.520 the final product. And, uh, in the dedication to the book, uh, 0:28:18.520 --> 0:28:21.040 references made to a friend of mine, Cubby Culbertson, who 0:28:21.040 --> 0:28:24.600 was this really wonderful entrepreneur up in Columbia, South Carolina. 0:28:25.040 --> 0:28:27.280 And it said something along the lines that I dedicate 0:28:27.280 --> 0:28:30.880 this book to cubby, uh, out of respect for our 0:28:30.880 --> 0:28:34.200 long friendship. And just as a small reminder that you 0:28:34.200 --> 0:28:36.320 promised if I dedicated it to you, you would buy 0:28:36.320 --> 0:28:40.160 100 copies. Okay. It was meant as a joke. Yeah, well, 0:28:40.200 --> 0:28:43.160 cubby said, hey, I'm I'm I'm all in. I do 0:28:43.160 --> 0:28:45.479 want to have 100 copies of the book, but I 0:28:45.480 --> 0:28:49.980 don't want the the books myself. He said, Aaron, my niece, uh, 0:28:50.260 --> 0:28:53.260 I would like you to find 100 book clubs and 0:28:53.260 --> 0:28:55.620 send a copy to 100 book clubs and see if 0:28:55.620 --> 0:28:57.700 you could get them interested in reading the book. Well, 0:28:57.740 --> 0:28:59.980 Aaron discovered there are lots of book clubs. It's hard 0:28:59.980 --> 0:29:01.900 to figure out who the leader of the pack is 0:29:01.900 --> 0:29:04.460 for most of them, but she sent these 100 books 0:29:04.460 --> 0:29:09.620 out and book clubs started. Uh, they started to take 0:29:09.660 --> 0:29:12.459 a shine to the book, and and you know how 0:29:12.460 --> 0:29:15.420 that works. I mean, somebody in Birmingham, Alabama, has a 0:29:15.420 --> 0:29:17.860 friend in Austin, Texas, has a friend in San Francisco, 0:29:17.900 --> 0:29:19.820 has a friend in Saint Paul, has a friend in 0:29:19.820 --> 0:29:22.700 Portland kind of thing. And the book just it started 0:29:22.700 --> 0:29:25.660 going to lots of places via book clubs. Uh, we 0:29:25.660 --> 0:29:28.980 also had a small database, uh, harkening back to my 0:29:28.980 --> 0:29:34.420 musician days. And those people have always been so gracious, uh, 0:29:34.420 --> 0:29:36.860 to the work that I've done. And it's, it's a 0:29:36.860 --> 0:29:41.100 microscopic group of people, but they are so, so valiant, uh, 0:29:41.100 --> 0:29:43.380 for the work that that I've been blessed to do. 0:29:43.420 --> 0:29:46.980 And so, you know that, and then just nothing but 0:29:46.980 --> 0:29:50.450 the goodness of God and and providence. Uh, the book 0:29:50.450 --> 0:29:52.970 has kind of taken off and and, Jonathan, it has 0:29:52.970 --> 0:29:55.850 been a shock, uh, to us. And I will say 0:29:55.850 --> 0:29:57.610 this because I know that a lot of people who 0:29:57.610 --> 0:30:02.370 listen to this are probably aspiring writers or aspiring artists 0:30:02.370 --> 0:30:06.290 of one way or another. Um, and we don't like 0:30:06.290 --> 0:30:08.850 to talk about the marketing or the business end of 0:30:08.850 --> 0:30:10.850 what we do, but rarely do I go to a 0:30:10.850 --> 0:30:14.170 conference where we talk about the esoterics of creativity or 0:30:14.170 --> 0:30:17.290 theology of creativity. And I know in that room there 0:30:17.290 --> 0:30:19.170 are a lot of people who are asking the question 0:30:19.170 --> 0:30:21.610 to themselves, yeah, I get all of this, but how 0:30:21.610 --> 0:30:25.090 do I make a living doing this? And so, yes, uh, 0:30:25.090 --> 0:30:28.810 traditional publishers are still around. It's hard to get to them, 0:30:28.810 --> 0:30:31.010 especially if you don't have an agent. I've never had 0:30:31.010 --> 0:30:34.850 an agent. Uh, but Amazon, for all the ugly things 0:30:34.850 --> 0:30:38.450 that can be said about it, uh, has somewhat democratized 0:30:38.450 --> 0:30:42.210 the marketplace. Um, and so Aaron and I said, okay, 0:30:42.210 --> 0:30:46.010 we will let Amazon basically handle the distribution of the 0:30:46.010 --> 0:30:49.350 book and its print on demand, which means we don't 0:30:49.350 --> 0:30:51.830 have to keep any inventory. We do keep a handful 0:30:51.830 --> 0:30:54.510 of books at my website and sell a few there, 0:30:54.710 --> 0:30:59.150 but Amazon, as you know, sells 85 to 90% of 90% 0:30:59.150 --> 0:31:02.310 of the books in America. And so that's the big store. 0:31:02.910 --> 0:31:07.950 And it has proven, uh, you know, really workable for, uh, 0:31:08.070 --> 0:31:10.710 for myself. Now, tomorrow, the book, of course, could fall 0:31:10.710 --> 0:31:13.430 off the cliff and we will have had our, our 0:31:13.470 --> 0:31:15.670 glorious moment. But it's it has really been fun. 0:31:15.710 --> 0:31:16.950 You'll be down there with the rest of us if 0:31:16.950 --> 0:31:17.270 it falls. 0:31:17.310 --> 0:31:19.670 There you go. There you go. With a more wholesome company. 0:31:19.910 --> 0:31:21.150 You know, at some point. 0:31:21.150 --> 0:31:21.910 We all, we all. 0:31:21.910 --> 0:31:24.430 Take that dive off the cliff. But but so far, 0:31:24.470 --> 0:31:26.989 it's it's, uh, it's been really good. And and one 0:31:26.990 --> 0:31:29.390 of the things that has really blessed and encouraged us 0:31:29.390 --> 0:31:34.110 is that, um, people buy by the box. We we 0:31:34.150 --> 0:31:36.150 get as many orders for boxes as we do for 0:31:36.150 --> 0:31:38.830 individual copies of the book. And then those people, these 0:31:38.830 --> 0:31:42.070 goodwill ambassadors, some of whom we know and most of 0:31:42.070 --> 0:31:45.150 whom we don't, uh, they spread the book out and 0:31:45.150 --> 0:31:47.650 it's just like a, a feather pillow that had been 0:31:47.650 --> 0:31:49.970 broken open? We don't know where the feathers are landing. 0:31:50.130 --> 0:31:54.370 Yeah, well, the the, um, the people who I hear 0:31:54.370 --> 0:31:59.850 about the book from the people. So I mentioned earlier 0:31:59.850 --> 0:32:02.570 before we started recording that I have people who don't 0:32:02.570 --> 0:32:05.850 have any idea that I know you. Yeah. Just mention, hey, 0:32:05.850 --> 0:32:09.010 there's this book my we love and it's and it's 0:32:09.250 --> 0:32:12.290 every time it's it's book clubs. Yeah. Right. My book 0:32:12.290 --> 0:32:13.290 club is doing this. 0:32:13.330 --> 0:32:15.810 Yeah. I had no idea there were so many. Uh, 0:32:15.810 --> 0:32:19.530 and I've never, I've, I've never belonged to one myself. Um, 0:32:19.770 --> 0:32:22.290 and most of them tend to be female. Um, I 0:32:22.290 --> 0:32:25.250 think I've done one. One guys book club. I've done 0:32:25.250 --> 0:32:28.810 some mixed clubs. And what we really enjoy doing. Uh, 0:32:28.810 --> 0:32:30.610 not that I've done many of them just because I 0:32:30.610 --> 0:32:33.490 want to focus on writing, but rather than doing one 0:32:33.490 --> 0:32:36.530 book club, unless it's a zoom event, if I go 0:32:36.530 --> 0:32:38.700 somewhere to speak, we try to get like 10 or 0:32:38.700 --> 0:32:41.730 20 book clubs together, and then you've got a room 0:32:41.730 --> 0:32:45.690 full of people and you know it. Just if I'm 0:32:45.690 --> 0:32:48.710 going to leave home, I want to have a, you know. Yeah, 0:32:48.750 --> 0:32:50.670 I want to make the best use of my time possible. 0:32:51.030 --> 0:32:52.790 But we're getting a lot of invitations. I wish I 0:32:52.790 --> 0:32:54.950 could do every one of them. Uh, if for no 0:32:54.950 --> 0:32:58.310 other reason than I just love to thank people for 0:32:58.310 --> 0:33:01.030 the kindness that they've shown to us. Uh, and now 0:33:01.030 --> 0:33:03.910 that I'm in a little bit of a break from 0:33:03.910 --> 0:33:06.910 first or, or the most recent draft to where I'll. 0:33:06.910 --> 0:33:09.469 I'll pick up in probably a few weeks, but we're 0:33:09.470 --> 0:33:12.510 going to try to do some during this spell. And, um, 0:33:13.110 --> 0:33:15.590 but if I do not happen to get to your 0:33:15.590 --> 0:33:18.870 book club, whoever you are out there and you've read it, 0:33:18.870 --> 0:33:22.230 God bless you. And I cannot thank you enough for, um, 0:33:22.350 --> 0:33:24.830 affirming the work that we've done. And keep up the 0:33:24.830 --> 0:33:25.470 good work. 0:33:26.630 --> 0:33:28.670 Well, I hope you'll keep up the good work. Thanks 0:33:28.670 --> 0:33:31.430 so much for being here. I just love what you do. And, uh, 0:33:31.430 --> 0:33:33.910 I've been so thrilled to see this book taken off. 0:33:34.150 --> 0:33:36.070 Thank you. Jonathan, I appreciate what you do. I know 0:33:36.070 --> 0:33:38.590 that you take the time to wrestle big ideas to 0:33:38.630 --> 0:33:41.230 the mat for the rest of us. Uh, I love 0:33:41.230 --> 0:33:44.790 your newsletter. Uh, I buy a lot of books on 0:33:44.790 --> 0:33:47.340 the strength of your recommendation. So there are authors who 0:33:47.340 --> 0:33:50.140 are indebted to you. You keep up the good work. Thanks. 0:33:50.180 --> 0:33:56.900 Alright, thanks. The habit Podcast is brought to you by 0:33:56.900 --> 0:34:01.100 the Rabbit Room, where art nourishes community and community nourishes art. 0:34:01.340 --> 0:34:04.420 You can support their work including this podcast, by becoming 0:34:04.420 --> 0:34:10.620 a member. Visit COVID-19. Special thanks as well to Taylor 0:34:10.620 --> 0:34:13.140 Leonard for letting us use her song diamonds as the 0:34:13.140 --> 0:34:16.020 theme music for The Habit podcast. You can learn more 0:34:16.020 --> 0:34:20.859 about Taylor and follow her work at Taylor Art.com. The 0:34:20.860 --> 0:34:24.300 Habit Membership is a library of resources for writers by me, 0:34:24.300 --> 0:34:27.540 Jonathan Rogers. More importantly, the habit is a hub of 0:34:27.540 --> 0:34:30.700 community where like minded writers gather to discuss their work 0:34:30.700 --> 0:34:33.500 and give each other a little more courage. Find out 0:34:33.500 --> 0:34:35.420 more at the Habit Co.