S1: All right, team, shall we? Shall we begin? We we
S1: need to wait for a couple more people, but we
S1: can have like a pre a pre session mini conversation
S1: as other people arrive. Uh, so I'll give a better
S1: introduction than this. But my name is Andy Patton and
S1: I'm going to talk. Thanks, Guy. I'm going to talk
S1: about what is a Christian game. So in the before
S1: the lecture proper starts, I'm going to pose that question
S1: to you. What is a Christian game? You chose to
S1: be here for a reason.
S2: It's a game that's going to heaven.
S1: The game that's going to heaven. Yeah. But the catch
S1: is you never know if your game is going to
S1: heaven or not.
S2: Schrodinger never know. There's no certainty.
S1: What was Nintendo Bible games back in the day? Nintendo
S1: Bible games. They had those. Oh, yeah.
S3: You were Noah and you had to, like, uh, carry
S3: the sheep back to the ark. There was one in
S3: the spirit that was basically Zelda, but with hymns and
S3: spiritual warfare.
S1: That's right. Somebody got paid a lot of money for
S1: that game.
S3: The spirit. And then the things would either go to
S3: heaven or go down to hell. That was awesome.
S1: Wow. Okay.
S4: Wonderful RPG. That was like the fruits of the spirits.
S4: Were the character attributes for you? Like the Christian dad
S4: or whatever?
S1: Yeah. Okay.
S3: Weirdest one had nothing to do with Christ. It was
S3: like you're saving the space ticket. But before that, it
S3: was like a Bible verse. Yes.
S1: Okay. So we're introducing some good concepts here.
S2: We're done.
S1: You guys are ready to give the lecture. I mean.
S3: That's.
S1: Yes.
S4: I don't know, but what I'd like to see is
S4: if a game could be a liturgy.
S1: If a game can be liturgy.
S4: Of it from beginning to end. If you give some
S4: truth about Christ could be illustrated and could grow.
S1: Mhm.
S4: Is that a possibility.
S1: We could explore that. Yeah we can explore that. So
S1: I'm just going to synthesize or summarize some of the
S1: themes I'm hearing here. So Christian content like Noah's Ark
S1: or a Bible verse, um, or fit in something about Christ, uh,
S1: that would make it more a Christian game that that is.
S3: I mean, I don't think that's good. I just think
S3: that's what I would think of as a Christian game. Yeah.
S1: I'm just.
S3: Kidding.
S1: I'm just kidding.
S4: I didn't mean it like as a veneer of Christian concept,
S4: you know, like.
S1: Yeah. Yeah.
S4: I just really meant, like, in the mechanics.
S1: Yes. Well, there's a whole conversation in game design about, uh,
S1: the didactic element of a game. And how do you
S1: integrate a message you're trying to convey? And should that be,
S1: should that be on the surface? Should it be mentioned
S1: at all, or is it a better game if you're
S1: trying to convey a message, but it is so deeply
S1: embedded that people are enjoying the experience and getting the message,
S1: but they don't know that they're getting the message. All
S1: that is, all that is good stuff to think about.
S1: Any other thoughts? What is a Christian game?
S3: I don't think it.
S5: Has something to do with the gameplay itself. Um, you know, uh,
S5: what is the experience like? Is the experience one that, uh, is, uh,
S5: Christ honoring? Right? Is it addicting?
S1: Is it addicting?
S3: Is it.
S5: You know, those types of things I think are also important.
S1: Um, so you said something to do with the experience
S1: when you're playing this game. What kind of an experience
S1: are you being drawn into? Is it Christ honoring?
S5: What is the fruit of the experience?
S1: Yeah. What does the experience produce in you after you
S1: play the game?
S5: The experience is telling you.
S1: Yeah, this this. That's a great comment. I used to
S1: be a lab worker. And if you're if you're not
S1: familiar with La Brea, it's a place it's like a
S1: Christian retreat center. And people stop doing their normal lives
S1: and they come live at La Brea for 3 to
S1: 3 to 9 to 12 months. And we would have
S1: conversations about things every day. Uh, so I would I
S1: still am a La Brea worker a little bit. I,
S1: I felt something labreche rise up in me when you
S1: said Christ honoring. I'm going to take that and, like,
S1: have a whole discussion about what does that even mean?
S1: How do you honor Christ, let alone how do you
S1: do it in a game? But I'm not a library
S1: worker anymore. I'm a rabbit room lecturer today. Okay, let's
S1: start the actual lecture now. Uh, I'm Andy Patton, and
S1: I work for the rabbit room. And before I worked
S1: for the rabbit room, I worked for La Brea in England,
S1: and before I did that, I lived in Chicago and
S1: started a game company there at the same time as
S1: I started seminary. So there were some there were. This
S1: question or the topic at hand is what is a
S1: Christian game? That was really bubbling around in my in
S1: my head during the years of seminary, because I was
S1: trying to get companies to pay me to entertain them
S1: with games and was, you know, by night and by
S1: day I was reading, reading theology and writing theology papers.
S1: So this this lecture was my capstone at the end
S1: of seminary. So looking at what what is a Christian game?
S1: Is there is there a a framework that we can
S1: apply to any game and assess it? Christianly. What does
S1: that word christianly even mean? That's going to mean a
S1: lot of things to different people. Is that even a
S1: word that we can apply to things. And when we
S1: apply that to things, what are we assuming? What are
S1: we taking for granted? How deep does that have to go?
S1: Can there be someone brought up the idea of a
S1: Noah's Ark Nintendo game? I'm sure that was a huge
S1: seller right up there with with Mario. If it is
S1: dealing with Christian language or Christian stories or Christian imagery,
S1: is it a Christian game? Can there be games like
S1: that that are un-Christian? Again, whatever that means. Can there
S1: be Christian games that have no level of reference to
S1: the Bible? No scripture quotations? They're not. They're not touching
S1: something that would be easily recognizable to Christians from something
S1: they might experience in church. I'm going to take a
S1: crack at some of those questions, but really, what I'm
S1: going to do in the next 45 minutes to an
S1: hour is present. A framework that you can use to
S1: think through these questions on your own. So that's that's
S1: where we're going. And that's just a bit about who
S1: I am. So my my definition of what is a
S1: Christian or what is a Christian thing. I'll just say
S1: that at the outset, because in a room this size
S1: we will there will be many different understandings of that.
S1: So I'm laying my cards on the table. I think
S1: if something is Christian, it is something that helps us
S1: be more human in the real, whatever reality is. So
S1: and there's some assumptions in that definition. One of the
S1: assumptions is God is reality. And God has created everything
S1: and has spoken into the world in such a way
S1: as to be understood. And one of the things that
S1: he did in creating was to create his image bearers people.
S1: We bear his image and that's a whole different discussion.
S1: We'll get into it a little bit. Yet that image
S1: is marred in us and creation is is marred. It
S1: wasn't only the first two chapters of Genesis. The third
S1: and following chapters happened also. So there was a fall.
S1: So everything is a bit twisted. And the question of
S1: the hour is can games help with the untwisting? And
S1: I'm going to say, if the answer is yes, then
S1: in that sense it is Christian. So that's that's my thesis.
S1: There's going to be a lot of theology here. So
S1: buckle up. We have not one door but two in
S1: case you need to use them. Uh, but first we're
S1: going to do a little game design theory. I want
S1: to introduce one concept called the Magic Circle. um. Johann
S1: Wiesinger is considered by some to be the father of
S1: game design studies, and he he he wrote a book
S1: called Homo Ludens. And here I'm going to read a
S1: quote from Homo Ludens introducing the concept of the magic circle.
S1: And then we'll be dealing with this concept throughout our discussion.
S1: So here is here's the quote. And it didn't print
S1: very well. So I'm going to use refer to my
S1: notes here. This is from Homo Ludens. All play moves
S1: and has it's being within a playground. The magic circle
S1: forbidden spots isolated hedged round hallowed within which special rules obtain.
S1: All are temporary worlds within the ordinary world. Dedicated to
S1: the performance of an act apart. So that's pretty wordy,
S1: but it's. He's saying something very A significant when it
S1: comes to defining what a game is and what happens
S1: inside of a game. So I'll read it again. All
S1: play moves and has its being Bible reference. There must
S1: be a Christian quote within a playground. The magic circle.
S1: Forbidden spots, isolated, hedged, round, hallowed within which special rules obtain.
S1: All are temporary worlds within the ordinary world. Dedicated to
S1: the performance of an act apart. So let's just let's
S1: just break that down a little bit. Uh, the the
S1: magic circle. He says the all play happens within a
S1: magic circle, and it's like a it's like a bubble.
S1: It's like a bubble into another dimension. And special rules
S1: happen inside this bubble. And the the magic circle has
S1: three dimensions. There's spatial, social and temporal. So spatial. Just
S1: think about monopoly. Monopoly happens at a table. So that's
S1: its spatial dimension. It's somewhat limited. You've got the board there.
S1: You're interacting with things. It is social. You're playing with
S1: three to 3 to 6 people who are increasingly having
S1: a terrible time. It's temporal. It takes you slog through
S1: several hours during during the course of a game of
S1: monopoly so that there there are those are the the boundaries,
S1: the dimensions of the magic circle. And different games play
S1: with those dimensions in different ways. So you could have
S1: a game that's the size of a postage stamp or
S1: the size of the whole world. You can have a
S1: game that takes three hours or it never ends. You
S1: can have a game that's you play alone or you
S1: play with 6 million people. So all of that, the
S1: magic circle can be very it's it's very variable depending
S1: on what game you're playing. Another point about the magic
S1: circle is it's separated. There's a boundary, you can step
S1: inside that boundary and you're in. He says different rules apply.
S1: So the the magic circle has a start and a
S1: stop most of the time. I'm I'm now in the
S1: game and I step back, step up from the table
S1: to take a phone call. And I'm not playing the
S1: game anymore. So what is magic about the magic circle?
S1: This is where it gets interesting. Inside the magic circle.
S1: New rules, he says new rules obtained within which special
S1: rules obtain. So it's it's like when you go to
S1: another culture, you get on the plane in Atlanta, get
S1: off in Paris, and you are in a world where
S1: new rules obtain things that you could do before you
S1: got on the plane. You can no longer do appropriately
S1: after you get on the plane. Playing a game is
S1: like that. It's a temporary world that changes the meaning
S1: of things. So my favorite example of this is the
S1: game twister. So normally if I put my foot near
S1: your face that you would be insulted, you would pull back.
S1: There's a rule we all feel. And with that rule,
S1: we feel it at a deep level. I'm offended. And
S1: your foot stinks. But when you play the game of twister,
S1: that is why you play the game. It's funny. So
S1: something that is offensive becomes funny. And we all, we
S1: all came to this mat with colored dots on it
S1: so we could put our stinky feet in one another's faces.
S1: And if you get offended by that, you are breaking
S1: the rules of the game and you should. If something
S1: goes wrong, the game becomes a little broken. Um, or
S1: think about Cards Against Humanity. Anyone ever played Cards Against Humanity?
S1: So it's uncomfortable. It's a game. It's like apples to apples.
S1: You are the only one who raised your hand. That's amazing. Okay.
S1: Cards against humanity. Because not many of you raised your hands.
S1: Pairs things with other things. And Apples to Apples is
S1: a game you could play with your kids that does
S1: the same thing. Cards Against Humanity you could not play
S1: with your kids to varying degrees. So it takes these
S1: things that these norms that we all know and we all,
S1: most of the time abide by about what you can
S1: joke about and what you can't joke about. And inside
S1: the magic circle, you can joke about them. Grandpa's ashes,
S1: the Holocaust, you know, different ethnicities. It's all very uncomfortable.
S1: I don't like to play the game. I think I
S1: think the game uses the magic circle against people. So
S1: you can. You're having fun doing something that you probably
S1: should not be having fun with. But it is interesting.
S1: The power of the magic circle. You can make these
S1: jokes that would be painfully awkward. And inside the magic circle,
S1: that very awkwardness is kind of transmuted into humor, and
S1: if it wasn't awkward, it would not be funny. And
S1: Cards Against Humanity would not have made the millions that
S1: that it has made its creators. Um, so there, there,
S1: there's the magic circle. When we step into the world
S1: of games, we are stepping into another world. And it is.
S1: It's crossing that barrier is is very powerful because you
S1: can use games to make people do things that they
S1: wouldn't otherwise do, like joke about grandpa's ashes. And so
S1: as a game designer, there's a there's a real responsibility there.
S1: And there's a real power because you are a world builder.
S1: You can make people, you can control people. You can
S1: make them do things that they wouldn't, they wouldn't otherwise do.
S1: And maybe they don't even know that they're being controlled.
S1: So there's a real responsibility, and there's a real, um,
S1: for a person who is a Christian and a game maker,
S1: there's a whole there's a whole level of thinking that
S1: needs to happen. So for the remainder of what I
S1: have to say, I'm just going to, um, offer a
S1: collection of concepts that can be assembled into a framework
S1: that can help you think through this stuff. So here
S1: are the concepts. Games are created things. Games are expressions
S1: of dominion. Games are intensifications of reality. They're vehicles of
S1: humanization or dehumanization. They are mirrors that show us ourselves.
S1: And they can be masks which can. Create healing. They
S1: can be healing masks. So let's jump in. Games is
S1: created things. And this is where the theology comes. Did
S1: God make games? What do you think? Yes. Yes. Okay.
S1: Did God make tag? Yes, yes, God made tag. He
S1: chiseled out the rules in the Ten Commandments.
S6: He made the ability to do it, though, and he
S6: gave us the brain to enjoy it and think about it.
S1: Yeah. Yeah, that's that's my next point. Well done. He
S1: gave us the ability to do it. Yes. He created
S1: the potentiality for the game of tag to exist. Yeah.
S1: So there's a sense in which often I've been in
S1: conversations in church settings about Eden and the world, the
S1: word perfect is thrown around. Eden was perfect. Genesis one
S1: and two God plops his image bearers down in this garden,
S1: this quote unquote perfect garden. But clearly it was not
S1: perfect because the story doesn't end there. It is good
S1: in the language of the story. It is. It is
S1: good and very good. But it is not finished. So
S1: God made his, made a good creation, and then plopped
S1: his image bearers inside it and gave them the dignity
S1: of agency so humans can really cause things to happen.
S1: And the part of what it means to be an
S1: image bearer of God is to sub create, which is
S1: a word that this audience will be very familiar with.
S1: Tolkien made it up so we can't make something from nothing,
S1: but we can make something from something. And actually, that was.
S1: That's the whole idea. Um, there is a there's a
S1: latent potential in God's creation. It wasn't perfect in the
S1: sense of being finished, but it was perfect in the
S1: sense of we had. We humanity, as God's image bearers,
S1: had everything we needed, needed to continue to spread the
S1: flourishing of the garden, so to speak. But that's not
S1: what happens. Actually, the opposite happens in Genesis three happens
S1: to fall. God's image bearers turn away from him, and
S1: instead of spreading the peace and flourishing of the garden
S1: throughout the created order, they spread disaster. So Genesis four, uh,
S1: all the disaster begins to gather to a greatness leading
S1: up to the Tower of Babel. This is. We're just
S1: doing some Bible stuff where everyone is gathering their disaster
S1: together into this monumental pillar to what they can achieve.
S1: So that was supposed to be a gathering of the
S1: flourishing that God had built latently into creation, and instead
S1: they gathered together to dominate. And the story of Genesis
S1: four to Genesis 11 is one of increasing mayhem and
S1: and God intervening to stop the disaster, stop the spread
S1: of the disaster. Um, so let's just think about think
S1: about cities. Were we supposed to make cities? The first
S1: appearance of cities you get is in Genesis four. So
S1: people are drawing together and things get really ugly and
S1: really nasty. And the thoughts of humanity are always bad
S1: all the time. This terrible phrase. So we went from
S1: a garden of flourishing and peace to a city of
S1: disaster that would set up a. Seem to set up
S1: a dichotomy where gardens are good and cities are bad,
S1: and cities are what happens after the fall. However, if
S1: you skip to the end of the Bible, you get
S1: a redeemed garden city that God calls the New Jerusalem
S1: and calls his home and his throne. So it's it's
S1: a very evocative and dense picture of this city that
S1: looks like a garden. So God had something he made
S1: and something fallen. Humanity made, and it's redeemed and becomes
S1: the ultimate expression of what? God and humanity. What beauty
S1: can be made. So I would put stick games somewhere
S1: in that trajectory so that we are supposed to make,
S1: and we're supposed to make in such a way that
S1: it increases the flourishing of the garden, brings, draws the
S1: flourishing of the garden into time and space now. And
S1: games games are games are in there somewhere. So that's
S1: that's I remember I said framework. So this is an
S1: idea I've plopped into your heads and now you can
S1: think about, um, okay what is does this game do
S1: this or does this. If your game designer here does
S1: this idea have for a game? How does how does
S1: that function? Uh, me as a as an image bearer
S1: of God called to bring order and flourishing to creation.
S1: Number two games as expressions of dominion. So here's a
S1: Old Testament question. What is the first temple? What is
S1: the first temple? Think about it for a second. This
S1: is audience participation. I have an idea in mind, but
S1: it's no shame if you don't say it.
S6: Like first God's first temple or like Tower of Babel. Okay.
S6: Garden of Eden.
S1: Say that again.
S3: The Ark.
S1: The Ark of the covenant. The Garden of Eden. It's
S1: harder to go far, too far back behind the Garden
S1: of Eden. What makes you say that?
S4: Well.
S1: I'd say that's an unconventional answer. Probably.
S2: Yeah, well.
S6: I heard this lecture once where they were talking about
S6: how the story of Genesis or the story of creation
S6: mirrors the building of a temple. And then the final
S6: thing you put in a temple is the image of
S6: the god. And the final thing that's put in creation
S6: is human beings in the image of God.
S1: That was the answer I was looking for. The Garden of.
S2: Eden.
S1: The Garden of Eden? Yes. The Garden of Eden. Yeah. Most.
S1: The first official temple. Stone temple is the temple, which
S1: of course is preceded by the tabernacle during the wandering years.
S1: But farther back, if you look at the way the
S1: garden in Eden is described, it looks the tabernacle looks
S1: like it. And then the temple looks like it. It's
S1: got three tiers. It's got progressive holiness. As you extend
S1: away from the tree of life, the image of God
S1: is in it. And then you get to the moment
S1: in the history of the Old Testament when the actual
S1: temple is being built, like the stone temple, and it's
S1: got jungle carvings all over it. And so it's got
S1: all these things that a people who have been shaped
S1: culturally by the stories of Genesis will recognize as, oh,
S1: this is this is Eden. It was supposed to be
S1: like coming back into Eden. Why did I start there?
S1: So in Genesis, God says, God gives them what some
S1: would call the creation mandate, be fruitful and multiply and
S1: spread the peace that I've given you throughout all of creation.
S1: And like I said, that that isn't how it works.
S1: But that was the idea that the thing that's happening
S1: here will spread throughout, throughout all of creation, in increasing circles. Um,
S1: so the, the idea of having dominion. So this I'm
S1: talking about games as expressions of dominion, having dominion be
S1: fruitful and multiply, have dominion over creation. That doesn't mean
S1: have babies and dig mines like exercising domination. But it's
S1: more along the lines, as I've come to think of it,
S1: as like the the Dominion that a gardener has over
S1: a garden, that I'm using my agency and the ability
S1: to cause things to happen to, to order and structure
S1: this little piece of the kingdom in such a way
S1: that it flourishes as a good gardener. Um, and that
S1: is always, in a sense, the call of humanity. Even today, uh,
S1: we don't live in a time of history where part
S1: of worshiping God is going to a temple in Jerusalem. However,
S1: the the trajectory of what God's image bearers are supposed
S1: to take part in around them is still the same.
S1: So it's this increasing flourishing and ordering and promotion of
S1: the good that God gave the world in your place. Um,
S1: the mechanics of redemption are always to move outward from
S1: God's people, establishing order from chaos, pushing back the effects
S1: of the fall to to one degree or another. Never completely,
S1: but pushing back the effects of the fall. Living in
S1: a new way in which different norms, special rules obtain
S1: to create sacred spaces hedged in and hallowed, uh, that
S1: are always expanding outward. So I'm lining what I'm saying
S1: here about the call of God with what I was
S1: saying about what a game is. So to create this circle,
S1: this magic circle. And when you step inside, different rules
S1: obtain in some ways that's a that's a game designer's
S1: take on the kingdom of God. So that when I
S1: come here, when I come to this place or around
S1: this person, I'm entering, I'm passing through the barrier of
S1: a magic circle where this this might happen out there,
S1: but it doesn't happen in here. So this is a
S1: new kingdom in which special rules obtain. And the call
S1: of the game maker and of the game player is
S1: to is to do in miniature what the call of
S1: humanity is to do on the macro scale and what
S1: God does, taking the stuff of creation and forming it
S1: in such a way that the a circle is created
S1: in which people enter and experience what life would be
S1: like under the Lordship of Christ to one degree or another.
S1: What is what is the Lordship of Christ? What does
S1: it mean to be Christ honoring? Uh, that's that's again,
S1: a whole different discussion. This is a framework. Can it
S1: does it need to have a Bible verse? Can is
S1: it permitted to have a Bible verse? I don't know.
S1: Depends on the game. Okay, games can make us more human.
S1: So we've talked about games as created things. God made
S1: this in a sense, or made the potentiality for it
S1: to exist. Expressions of dominion. How we games fit into
S1: our work. What does it mean to be human? And
S1: can games make us more human? Going back to my
S1: definition in the beginning, that a Christian game is something
S1: that makes us more human in a reality that is
S1: more real. What does it mean to be human in Genesis?
S1: You get in the beginning of Genesis, you get a
S1: complicated picture, and there's not a propositional definition of what
S1: it means to be human, but it is a dense, poetic.
S1: Truth ball. And you can look at that and be
S1: shaped by it. And a picture of what it means
S1: to be human emerges. So there are some this is
S1: going to be an audience participation again, According to Genesis
S1: one and two. And if you are not familiar with
S1: the Bible, or even not a Christian in this room,
S1: I'm sorry. I am not slowing down more. I'm kind
S1: of digging from a seminary paper and trying to apply
S1: it in a way that's understandable. But if I'm saying
S1: the Temple and Eden and all that stuff and it's
S1: just like, what the heck is that? I apologize. Please
S1: talk to me afterward. I can go over anything you want. Um,
S1: but in Genesis, for those of you who are familiar
S1: with the first two chapters, you get a picture. What
S1: is it like? What is it like to be human
S1: in Genesis one and two? I'm going to start some
S1: answers and then turn it over to you. They are social.
S1: It's not good for man to be alone. Adam was
S1: not always alone. What else?
S2: There's an agency and authority in, like, naming the animals. Awesome.
S1: Yes. God invites Adam to name the animals. God brings
S1: the animals to them to see what they are named.
S1: Adam gives them a name and then that is what
S1: they are named. It's like almost painfully detailing. This is real.
S1: This this Adam is causing things to happen. So there's
S1: a there's a work dimension. Um, he's not sunbathing all
S1: the time.
S5: There's some order.
S1: Order? Yes, it's very ordered. Yeah. The picture there is.
S1: They are. They're not inhabiting chaos. They're inhabiting a garden.
S1: There's rules. There's. There's things that they can get to
S1: satisfy their needs. Yeah, it's an ordered place. What else?
S4: People who enjoy things.
S1: Enjoy things. Where are you getting that?
S4: Um. Well, because.
S6: God.
S4: Gave them, um, the fruit of any tree except the
S4: tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He said, look,
S4: you can have all of this, And I guess the
S4: implication is that there wouldn't be this wide variety if
S4: it wasn't there to be enjoyed.
S1: Um, and they're beautiful.
S6: And.
S4: They're and they're.
S6: Beautiful.
S1: They're beautiful and presumably delicious. Yeah. And God pronounces the
S1: things he makes good. Yes. There's that word Tov. That
S1: is a deep and rich goodness. What else?
S3: There's boundaries.
S1: Boundaries? Yeah. Do this. Don't do that. Mhm.
S3: So you.
S5: Can get kicked.
S3: Out of.
S1: It. Yes. There are boundaries and there they end up
S1: being exiled and they don't get to come back.
S4: Consequences for.
S6: Breaking.
S4: Boundaries.
S1: Yeah. Part of being human means to exist in a
S1: moral dimension.
S5: So living. I mean, uh, what comes to mind is
S5: the idea that it wasn't meant for them to just
S5: be there, and then it just exists as it is
S5: for all eternity. It was meant for something to happen.
S5: There were raw materials, and they were to contribute, and
S5: something was to come out of it.
S1: I think so, yeah. That's that. That needle is not
S1: threaded so explicitly in the narrative, but I think that's
S1: what the rivers mean. Actually, the rivers that go down
S1: into these other kingdoms, the Piece of Eden was supposed
S1: to spread, spread there. And instead the fall happens and
S1: the disaster spreads there. And those four places correspond to
S1: the four big enemies of the Old Testament Assyria, Egypt, Canaan, Babylon. Yes,
S1: but that's not what was supposed to happen.
S2: Presumably the wilderness, which is like the first chapter of Genesis,
S2: is all about separation, separating the waters above from the
S2: waters below, the land from the sea. And then you
S2: get to the garden and it's like, continue that. You've
S2: got a garden here, which is like a very like
S2: you've got your separate plants garden now. It's not a
S2: big mess. This is my garden. And, uh, it's not
S2: the wilderness, right? So it's the rest of the world
S2: is presumably wilderness. Then you've got a mission now to
S2: take that further than Eden.
S1: Yeah. In Genesis one, the the opening scene. The curtain
S1: rises on a chaotic ocean, a sea where nothing is
S1: distinguished from anything else. And that's tapping back into the
S1: the ancient Mesopotamian mind. I would argue, and then God
S1: separates the water and causes the land to rise, and
S1: then does things to the land. So he's pushing back
S1: the chaos and creating an ordered space. And then he
S1: plants trees and people there.
S5: I think also, I'm sorry that maybe it's implicit, but
S5: maybe I think it's worth mentioning that, uh, obviously God
S5: was there and, uh, and that he enjoyed it himself.
S5: The design of it, uh, which was collaborative and, um,
S5: but that he was central and that it all declared
S5: his glory.
S1: Yeah. God was there. Um hmm. So there was a
S1: what we might call a spiritual dimension. Uh, but back then,
S1: it doesn't seem that the spiritual. It's easy for us
S1: to think about, like natural, supernatural, physical, spiritual, then those
S1: things seem to be much more closely entwined. You have
S1: God walking with his creations in the cool of the day.
S1: You have this other spiritual being, the serpent, coming in,
S1: and they talk and they, you know, it seems to
S1: be this free exchange which is different than what happens
S1: after the fall. The the two realms are separated. Okay.
S1: Last thing, two last two things.
S7: It may have already been mentioned or part of something else,
S7: but I think part of the order is that there's
S7: also communication. So it's not just order of where like
S7: spatially speaking, but like going back to the three, there's
S7: a social order of how communication goes between God and
S7: his creation. And even in Genesis two and the making
S7: of Eve, the story seems to imply this sort of
S7: unfolding of truth through communication and finding out what is
S7: the true and better thing through Adam naming all the animals.
S7: And then there's yeah.
S1: Yeah, there's language, communication, a sequence of events, there's development,
S1: The ancient Greco-Roman mind just thought of eternity as static.
S1: And then in comes the Hebrew mind, which is we
S1: are going somewhere. History is array. Okay last comment.
S4: I really enjoyed the contrast between the two and the
S4: perspectives on what makes a story. So Genesis one is
S4: a very tidy story. It has a beginning, it has
S4: an end, it has progression throughout. And Genesis two jumps
S4: right into there's people. We don't know where they came from.
S4: They're here. And there's not really an end per se,
S4: because it's sort of like it's a mess. Hope it
S4: works out.
S1: Um, and then you get the rest of the Bible.
S4: Yeah. And it's, it's a really good perspective on like,
S4: even the if somebody views it as a complete set
S4: to somebody else, it's a story of chaos.
S1: Yeah. What is the relationship between Genesis one and two?
S1: I think part of that answer is the Hebrew poetics
S1: and the way repetition plays and Hebrew poetics. So they
S1: get to make these contrasting stories, which are very different,
S1: as you're pointing out. But they they form like two
S1: sides of an inkblot. They're parallel and similar. Okay. Let's
S1: thank you for participating. Uh, I have a list of
S1: 11 things which don't exhaust the the answer to the question,
S1: what does it mean to be human but social, relational, irrational.
S1: They can use their minds. They're embodied. They're not spirits
S1: floating around. They have a physical place to live. Spiritual, moral.
S1: It can cause things to happen. They're limited and they're dependent.
S1: They have needs. And those needs need to get satisfied.
S1: They are. They build, they work. They create language and temporal.
S1: So they exist in time. They do not exist outside
S1: of time. They experience duration and sequence. Some things happen
S1: before other things. Well, that was fun. Hopefully that was fun.
S1: Let's get back to games. Um, Genesis one, two and
S1: three give a very rich, robust what what the seminarians
S1: would call anthropology. What does it mean to be a human?
S1: This is it. Why? Why is everything so good, inescapably
S1: good and rich and abundant and broken and marred and fallen?
S1: Genesis one, two and three offer a story about that,
S1: and that's a story we can use to make sense
S1: of the world, however, so that that's a snapshot of
S1: what it means to be human. I would argue that
S1: in in this side of the worlds, both goodness and brokenness,
S1: we experience our humanness as something that ebbs and flows
S1: so it can dwindle. We can be dehumanized. It can
S1: grow and become richer and stronger and more robust. And
S1: that happens in each of those Characteristics differently. So you
S1: can have a work, a job that you go to
S1: every day and you just sit in a cubicle and
S1: experience the the humanization of the body that modernity is
S1: good to good at making. And your mind is completely
S1: engaged as you click around on your computer and work
S1: in the digital world. So both of those things happen
S1: at the same time. So there's kind of a dehumanization
S1: and a, um, and a moment when your rationality is
S1: being very engaged. So it's, it's it's a complicated picture.
S1: What does all this have to do with games? Games
S1: can do the same thing. They can dehumanize you and
S1: rehumanize you. I used to play a game called Zombies Run.
S1: Has anyone played zombies run?
S3: I think so.
S1: You should check it out because it is a lot
S1: of fun. It's a running, it's an exergame. It's a
S1: running app, and you pop your earbuds in and start
S1: the game, and it selects your playlist and you listen
S1: to a song in between songs. Zombies chase you and
S1: there's a whole narrative. It's pretty good. It's pretty good writing.
S1: It's a good story. And you can turn on zombie
S1: sprint mode. Yeah, download it right now. There's no shame
S1: in the game. If you click Zombie Sprint mode on
S1: when those zombies come, you got to get moving and
S1: the sound of the growling gets louder if you're not
S1: running fast enough. I did it, I did it my
S1: first time and injured myself because it was so motivating.
S1: So it is impossible to forget that you have a
S1: body when you are playing zombies. Run! And for me,
S1: I've never been much of an outdoor exercise guy. This
S1: I needed a game to get me out moving my body.
S1: My wife has this picture of me hunched over a
S1: computer and it's become this. Like I'm just curled up
S1: on the floor, hunched over a computer. The picture of
S1: modern man. And that if I apply no effort to
S1: my life, that is who I become. Zombies run was
S1: good for me. It humanized me in a way. Um,
S1: let's see another example. The University of Chicago Scavenger Hunt
S1: has a very famous, uh, in game design circles scavenger
S1: hunt yearly. And people come from all over the place
S1: and try to get as many of these crazy goals
S1: knocked out during a fixed period of time as they can.
S1: And the winning team is the one that gets the
S1: most points by finding or doing things. And some of
S1: them are easy to do and find. Some of them
S1: are like ride an elephant through campus. Get a picture
S1: of yourself at the North Pole. Create a nuclear reaction.
S1: And so teams do them and they get points. So
S1: it's this intense exercising of both the social dimension of
S1: what it means to be human, and the rational dimension.
S1: People sit around a dorm room, figure out how can
S1: we make a nuclear reaction. And that one was done.
S1: Interesting and terrifyingly enough.
S2: Is everyone okay after that?
S1: Yeah. Chicago remains so. Games. Games can rehumanize and dehumanize us.
S1: I'll check my schedule here. Since this is Hutch, let's
S1: talk about what Tolkien might have to say about this question.
S1: The next point is games are not an escape from
S1: the real, or they don't have to be, but they
S1: can be an intensification of the real. Tolkien wrote an
S1: essay called On Fairy-stories, and he lays out a very
S1: helpful concept that gives us a mirror, an image into
S1: a glance, into how he thought about his own fantasy.
S1: And he introduced the primary world and the secondary world.
S1: So the primary world is our world. The secondary world
S1: is Lord of the rings, which has a has a
S1: lot of overlap to our world, uh, but is clearly
S1: not the same world. And so Tolkien was a fantasist
S1: in the sense that he promoted escape into the secondary world.
S1: And a lot of people have found solace there that
S1: they get to bring back into the primary world. So
S1: this fantasy and games can get a bad rap here
S1: if they are painted as only an escape. And often
S1: fantasy and games can be that I'm just unplugging from
S1: reality and reading Lord of the rings again, or playing
S1: World of Warcraft. Um, but the criticism here is that
S1: we we need to live in a real world, and
S1: the primary world is not it yet is that distinction.
S1: Are you tracking with that distinction? So we need to
S1: live in reality, the primary world that we all know,
S1: in which we live and move and have our being,
S1: is not it? Because it is. It is. Our reality
S1: is already distorted. The primary world is distorted. So Tolkien's
S1: argument is we can actually go into the secondary world
S1: and imagine a different way of living. And when you're
S1: talking about games, you can actually experience a different way
S1: of living that is untwisted and and from which the
S1: fall has been pushed back in a way that the
S1: primary world is distorted, and then you can experience that
S1: change inside of it and bring something back into the
S1: primary world. Here's a C.S. Lewis quote. Spells are used
S1: for breaking enchantments as well as for inducing them. And
S1: you and I have need of the strongest spell that
S1: can be found to wake us from the evil enchantment
S1: of worldliness that has been laid upon us for nearly
S1: a hundred years. So he's saying that we need benevolent
S1: distortions of reality because we actually don't live in reality yet.
S1: We live in a, we live in a a broken
S1: image and games or or fantasy in this example can
S1: restore the image in a way that is that you
S1: can bring back. So I've got a couple examples there.
S1: I'm going to skip them for the sake of time.
S1: I think I've made my point there. The paradox. There's
S1: a paradox of entering the secondary world of the game
S1: can become a deeper entry into actual reality that heals
S1: and fixes and accompanies you back to the primary world.
S1: Next point games as healing masks. There's a phrase I
S1: came across somewhere beta living. So games can be a
S1: kind of beta living where you get to try something out,
S1: you get to experience something. A friend of mine. It's
S1: a game designer, and he worked in Chicago with kids
S1: that didn't have a good place to go after school.
S1: So they'd come to Nick's classroom and he would try
S1: to entertain them and give them something better than what
S1: they'd get with that time if they were just let loose.
S1: So Nick was a game designer, so he made a game,
S1: and it was a role playing game like Dungeons and Dragons.
S1: But this was a the theme was basically the movie alien.
S1: So the kid, there was five kids in his class
S1: and he was like trying to get them involved in
S1: this kind of nerdy thing. And four of them were
S1: really excited. So they all pretended to be astronauts in
S1: the spaceship in which an alien was loose. It's basically, uh,
S1: the myth of myth of the Minotaur. So there's a monster.
S1: You are in a labyrinth. How are you going to
S1: survive that? So Nick designed a game in which all
S1: that was turned into game mechanics. But one of the
S1: kids just he was too cool for school, did not
S1: like it, but he had to be there. So he
S1: he would just sit in the corner and heckle them
S1: and do his best to use all the pressures of that.
S1: Young children have to break down the experience that they
S1: were having. And so Nick started to realize that something meta,
S1: there's a meta thing happening right here. So here are
S1: four students trapped in a room. One of them is
S1: trying to destroy the good thing that is happening. And
S1: so he invited the kid in the corner who is
S1: trying to break it all down to be the alien.
S1: And he loved it. And finally he the game kind
S1: of reached out and grabbed him and say, if this
S1: is how you want to play, we've got a place
S1: for you. So it there are all these, you can
S1: kind of step back and see these five kids. There
S1: are obviously lots of boundaries and barriers between them that
S1: four of them could overcome, and one of them could not. He,
S1: his humanity and the relationship between the five children was
S1: being was distorted. So the game reached out and made
S1: a place for him. And inside that he could kind
S1: of put on. This is the game as a as
S1: a healing mask. You put on the mask of the game,
S1: which in this example looked like an alien, and he
S1: played with the other four kids and then they they experienced,
S1: much to their surprise, a relationship started to develop and
S1: the game was over and everybody took off their mask
S1: and they were friends. So there's this this sense in
S1: which games can, when you enter the magic circle in
S1: which different rules apply, you, you, you leave a bit
S1: of something you're able to you can you leave something
S1: outside the game and then move into the magic circle
S1: and certain if a game has been designed? Well, if
S1: the conditions are right, you can experience something inside that
S1: is that is very humanizing. So there's another story. I
S1: said in the beginning that I used to be a
S1: lab worker. And again, that's just a it's a Christian
S1: residential study centre. And this one was in England. And
S1: there's lots of tea. Tea at 11 and 430. So
S1: everything stops for half an hour. We have tea. And
S1: a volleyball is a feature of tea time. So I
S1: was playing volleyball once and had this ridiculously overwrought fall.
S1: It was a fall that just kept happening somehow. And
S1: I was kind of going back, looking up lots of momentum,
S1: and then fell backwards and kept on falling. And 30
S1: people saw it happen. So that was that was a
S1: it was happening inside a game. I put on the
S1: mask of I'm now volleyball player. And in the, in
S1: the something happened to me inside the game, which destroyed
S1: all this carefully crafted dignity that I try to conduct
S1: myself with outside of the game. And I was totally humiliated.
S1: And I was just getting, you know, everybody was so
S1: nice about it. They were like, ah, bad luck. Good try.
S1: It was not bad luck. It was not a good try.
S1: I was just bad. My my inner badness at volleyball
S1: was exposed and put on display. But we're all just playing.
S1: We were all wearing the mask of volleyball and and
S1: that's what that's what volleyball does to you. Some people
S1: who came through were really good at it. Some people
S1: were really not good at it, but it was the
S1: rules of that game. That particular instance of volleyball are
S1: very safe. So everybody just embarrasses themselves and and it's okay.
S1: And I point that out under the heading of games
S1: as healing masks because healing healing is something you can
S1: read a book, a self-help book, and try to overcome
S1: your problems. But healing is most potent when it's something
S1: that is experienced. So games can facilitate the experience of healing.
S1: And in reality, when I fell, I was actually embarrassed.
S1: There was a in the primary world, I was embarrassed.
S1: My face. My face turned red. But when I stood
S1: up and everybody was saying, you know, good try. Bad
S1: luck clapping, laughing, I was still safe. So because the
S1: game was happening, I was both embarrassed and still safe.
S1: And that's that's a healing experience. So if you do
S1: that enough something, you can take something back to the
S1: primary world. All right. Last do we want to do the.
S1: I'm going to zoom through this last one so we
S1: can have time for discussion. Games as mirrors. Many people
S1: won't play games because just as they intensify aspects of
S1: good aspects of reality and what it means to be human.
S1: They also can intensify bad aspects of what it means
S1: to be human and reality. So we've all got experiences
S1: about competitiveness turned sour, or anger or loss of perspective
S1: or cheating. I want to win so bad I'm going
S1: to cheat to win this game. Now gloating in victory
S1: or the the the real sting of loss when you
S1: lose this, you know, made up contest, you're just in
S1: the magic circle. Nothing here really is real in that sense.
S1: But it it does hurt or something does go wrong.
S1: Boasting and people can brag about their performance in games.
S1: Isolation games can very much intensify isolation that we can
S1: labor under. So a dehumanizing aspect of our relational, the
S1: relational dimension of what it means to be human. Put
S1: in the terms of the rest of the lecture isolation.
S1: I haven't talked much about video games Because though though
S1: I love them, that is a very different lecture. Um,
S1: I think they're much more of a mixed bag when you,
S1: when you play a video game more likely to be addicting,
S1: more likely to be isolating, hardcore gamers will have lots
S1: of examples to shout me down here, but yet I'm
S1: still right. Uh, cultural idols games can intensify our cultural idols.
S1: Think of the gladiatorial games. There was this idol. We
S1: enough greco-romans could be gathered to one place to see
S1: people hurt each other. Um. Think about the exaltation of
S1: star athletes in our in our culture. We are already
S1: salivating for the things, uh, that every culture wants things
S1: inappropriately and that culture's games offer them those things in
S1: a predictable and controlled manner. Um, the idols of the heart. Uh,
S1: There's ramifications for people's identity when games go wrong. I
S1: am my victory or I am my loss addiction. As
S1: someone said, people have played more World of Warcraft than
S1: the amount of time that humans have been alive on
S1: this Earth. If you log man hours, 6,000,000 hours. And this.
S1: I found that stat a couple years ago. I'm sure
S1: it's much more people have let their children starve because
S1: they wanted to play World of Warcraft. That's that has happened. Uh,
S1: so there's. Yeah, there's all kinds of reasons not to
S1: play games. Um, that that is not this lecture, but
S1: I wanted to just respond to that idea that, well,
S1: when I play games, everything goes wrong. I get angry. Uh,
S1: my family has a shouting, a shouting match. What? What
S1: is good about that? How can that be turned around
S1: into a good thing? A friend and I recently were
S1: talking about the movie Cinderella man, Russell Crowe. He's a
S1: boxer in the in the depression. And his wife at
S1: one point in the movie, his wife saying like, why
S1: do you do this? You know, we've got you know,
S1: we have so much struggle. We're in the middle of
S1: the depression. Why are you fighting? And he says, at
S1: least in the ring, I can see what I'm fighting against.
S1: Whereas he goes home and everybody is suffering under the depression.
S1: Games can be like that. They can take they can
S1: take a thing, and then they can very clearly and
S1: painfully expose to you something that is broken about yourself
S1: or about reality or about the people who you love.
S1: And that is that's a reason many people have to
S1: step away from playing games. I know lots of people
S1: that just say, I don't like games because I can't
S1: handle what happens, but I would want to I would
S1: want to accept that and gently push a bit on that.
S1: If you have a problem with anger, it's expressing itself
S1: in your life, whether you know it or not. If
S1: you play a game and you can't, you're not happy
S1: with the angry person you become. That's not. There are
S1: some ways you can consider that experience that cast it
S1: in the light of an achievement. Something has been achieved here,
S1: I have this, I have entered this experience and it
S1: has shown me something true about myself. Some learning that
S1: I have to do or something about something my community
S1: can't handle. We can't handle this, the conflict that we're
S1: experiencing here. So that's just my my apology for even
S1: though even though games can intensify parts of the fault, you,
S1: at least when you play a game, you can you
S1: can see who you're fighting. Fighting against. They make things
S1: that are difficult to see. Very visible, painfully visible. That's
S1: all I have to say. Let's have some Q&A. What
S1: are you thinking about? I've offered a framework and applied
S1: it to some games, but there's lots more we could say.
S3: I would be curious to hear maybe.
S7: The.
S5: Positive note one.
S3: But I'm actually more curious about negative one. What did
S3: you consider and say a board game? Would you be
S3: to be a.
S7: Dehumanizing game.
S3: Mechanic? De-humanizing game.
S7: Design?
S1: We talked. So the question is what? What is a
S1: I had a lot of examples of rehumanizing games. What
S1: is a dehumanizing game that we were talking about, Cards
S1: Against Humanity. I think it's dehumanizing. I think it takes
S1: these things, which should be there's an inherent dignity to
S1: the human person, and that doesn't mean we can't have
S1: fun and laugh about things. And actually, that's in my
S1: closest relationships. If I can achieve a point where I
S1: can laugh about my quirks and foibles with my friends
S1: and it's still safe, that's a that's a good thing.
S1: That's a that's a healthy place. It can be Cards
S1: Against Humanity. I think it abuses the power of the
S1: magic circle in such a way that we. Were laughing,
S1: but it's not safe. I've played it with African American friends,
S1: and I've been forced to try to make jokes about
S1: their blackness, and that's really uncomfortable. And I thought when
S1: that happened, the last time I played, I thought, I
S1: just can't I just can't play this. I don't know
S1: how this is going to land with you. You know,
S1: this is not happening in the context of relationship. This
S1: is this is something I, I felt that I would use.
S1: Use the magic circle to perpetrate something against my friends
S1: and that the game was forcing that. And I didn't
S1: want to do that. That's an example that comes to mind.
S1: I'd have to think more about that question. I suppose
S1: the example of video games that I hinted at a
S1: little bit more. I have spent so many hundreds of
S1: hours playing video games Names and they are so fun
S1: and I probably could have done better things with my
S1: college experience. That being said, a lot of my friendships
S1: in college were built around video games. So it's it's complicated.
S1: I hopefully one of the things that I'm conveying is
S1: this framework lets you say yes to these things and
S1: no to those things, and understand why this is. Yes,
S1: and this is a no. Do you want to push
S1: back on that at all?
S3: No, no, I actually I was going to give an
S3: example that I was thinking of for board games, um,
S3: like in college, at one point we played Settlers of Catan.
S3: It was a big thing. It was a lot of fun.
S3: And at a certain point, though, and this is kind
S3: of I don't know if this is necessarily a thing
S3: of a game design or more like you were talking
S3: about exposing the heart, but there is two friends who
S3: decided that I was good at the game, which I
S3: was so-so, but whatever they decided was good against gaming
S3: and would gang up on me from the very start
S3: before I had any advantage. And so I. this happened
S3: twice games and in the second game I decided to make.
S3: There's four people. The other person thus ruining both of
S3: those other two games as they decided to ruin mine.
S3: And we didn't play another game until there was a Catan.
S3: And so I think it's interesting to me what you
S3: brought up. Like, I don't know if that's a I've
S3: heard similar experiences of other people playing this game because
S3: of the trading. I don't know if that's like a
S3: feature of it that exposes these hard things, or if
S3: the mechanics of the game being so cutthroat mean that
S3: you just kind of naturally gang up on people because
S3: the game mechanics, I don't know, I was just trying
S3: to puzzle that one through.
S1: I do that strategy all the time. Love it. That
S1: that person's good. Let's stop him. Yeah. Yes, but it
S1: can be very frustrating. Yeah. I think that's an example
S1: of how the magic circle is a porous boundary. It's not.
S1: It's not an iron curtain. You bring who you are
S1: into the game and you bring dynamics that were in
S1: play before the game started. Into the game as well.
S2: I was going to say someone. Somebody did that to
S2: me inside and it was like my wife. It was
S2: all my family. And like, I'm the youngest and it's
S2: my brothers and I'm going to beat them, right? So
S2: I beat them. I was about to win and my
S2: wife was like, haha! And made my drew were married
S2: yet made my sister in law win, who hates playing
S2: games with us. And I was so mad. And then
S2: I was like, oh crap like that convicted me because
S2: I was totally all about beating my brother. That's the
S2: only reason. Like I was not bringing a good thing
S2: into the game. It's a really good point.
S1: Yeah.
S3: As I do have a question, but I want to
S3: a Cards Against Humanity report. Um, so the times we
S3: played it, it's been the exact opposite experience to where.
S3: So I'm a pastor of a church. A bunch of
S3: people in our church play it, and our church is
S3: made up of people who aren't Christians. Like, they're they're
S3: new and they're a this is awesome. Like, this pastor
S3: isn't horrible, but you get to things where you go,
S3: I won't, I can't say this, I won't say it.
S3: And then it opened up beautiful conversation like, oh, you
S3: wouldn't say that. This is wrong, man. And like, oh, cool. Like,
S3: let's talk about that. Uh, so I guess that breaks
S3: the rule of the game, but it is fun. And
S3: you get to see like, oh, that's a line for you. Oh,
S3: but this isn't a line for me. But this one's
S3: a line for you. It was really interesting to see
S3: what people's lines were, where, you know, race is pretty
S3: much everyone's line. But there's some other things like, oh,
S3: I'm interested that you would joke about that, but you
S3: wouldn't joke about this one. So with that said, isn't
S3: it all based on is it relative to perspective and
S3: audience and people playing?
S1: Yeah. I wouldn't want to make a blanket condemnation of
S1: Cards Against Humanity. It's a great game. Uh.
S3: Once you play it once, it's boring.
S1: Yeah, I suppose so.
S3: Only thing that sucks about the game is.
S1: I've made this joke before. Yeah, yeah. No, it it
S1: it was only dehumanizing. It would not have been items
S1: one through five on Amazon's toys and games for so long, people.
S1: People are having fun and I'm sure there's so many
S1: thousands of stories just like that. One of good and
S1: beneficial conversations that have come about as a result of
S1: dealing with these unspeakable things. And I think knowing the
S1: creators of that game, that is one of the things
S1: that they think that is a gift that has been
S1: built into the game, that there's all these things we
S1: can't talk about unless you play this game and you
S1: will talk about them, which is not bad. That can
S1: be quite good. It isn't automatically good, but it certainly
S1: can be. Sorry, you're next after that.
S3: Um, so I was curious to hear your thoughts about
S3: as I was thinking through, it was just really great thoughts.
S3: So thank you. I love the the organization of kind
S3: of logic behind all these different things. So I'm thinking
S3: about a lot of the Genesis one through three focus
S3: as sort of this, because I'm starting to see that
S3: if I can summarize the argument, it's less of what
S3: is a Christian gain, but okay, the existence of an
S3: idea of a game like this magic circle is inherently
S3: Christian because it goes back to the Christian God and
S3: how the world came to be, and this kind of thing. So, um,
S3: what's interesting to me to press into, though, is that
S3: it seems like you have, uh, Genesis two, like development,
S3: like there's a I wouldn't even necessarily say a problem
S3: because I'll use that as another word. But like, you know,
S3: Adam's looking for a helpmate, and you see the story
S3: of how that develops. Right? But he's not exiled for
S3: not being able to find that helpmate on his own.
S3: God helps him. Genesis three there's a problem, and the
S3: wrong solution is chosen, as it were, in this consequences.
S3: But then even beyond that, to a certain degree, you
S3: get to enable there's competition and there's additional sort of
S3: boundary and consequences that come from that. So development, problem solving, competition.
S3: How do you see those things as it relates to
S3: like what makes a game have sort of a Christian value?
S3: Because it seems like there's a way to have all
S3: those three things in a Christian game. But it seems
S3: like as it develops in the first chapters of Genesis,
S3: there's kind of an increasing sinfulness. Yeah, but I'm just
S3: wondering what you think about that.
S1: Yeah. I don't fully understand your question. So I'm going
S1: to say something and you can tell me if I
S1: am headed in the right direction.
S3: Good at asking questions that don't make sense.
S1: Aren't we all? Um, so you're asking, like given given
S1: how the fall can express itself in many different ways,
S1: like competition. You have Cain and Abel, murderous competition. What?
S1: What gives a game Christian value or redemptive value, if
S1: it also consists of things that are ways that the
S1: fall can express themselves, like competition? Yeah.
S3: I think Yeah, maybe that's a better way to put it,
S3: is because I don't think either of us would say
S3: competition is inherently sinful and bad for a lot. Anything
S3: that has to do with that. Otherwise, we wouldn't be
S3: talking about games.
S1: Otherwise the Olympics wouldn't be sinful, right?
S3: So, but I do see a relationship between development all
S3: the way to competition. So how do you where do
S3: you wrestle along that spectrum when it comes to games?
S3: How they deal with that, that tension of, you know,
S3: I'm not I don't think playing a game where someone's
S3: life should be ended based on how they do.
S1: Squid.
S3: Game development, right? That's not a great.
S1: Yeah, we can say no one should do Squid Game.
S3: There you go. Yeah, there we go. So yeah, that's
S3: that's what I'm asking. Help us see maybe that spectrum
S3: and where what are some, like, waypoints along the way
S3: that might show us. Oh, we might be getting too
S3: far into this game. It's really just about competition. And
S3: that's not a very good thing to. Well, maybe it's
S3: just development and there's no problem solving. So just because
S3: Noah's Ark, isn't it? But there's no consequences for what
S3: I do. This is just a bad game. Does that make.
S1: Sense? I think so. I think getting into this question,
S1: I structured the framework as I did so that it
S1: would have a goal that what is a Christian game?
S1: It is a game that makes us more human in
S1: a reality that's more real. And both of those God
S1: is a hidden player in how we define those things.
S1: So I think it was Solzhenitsyn that said that the
S1: line between good and evil doesn't run through, you know,
S1: your good and your bad, but actually straight through the
S1: middle of everything. So there can be good competitiveness and
S1: evil competitiveness. So what I'm trying to do here is
S1: offer a framework that we can assess a game or
S1: a feature of a game, or a moment that you're
S1: having inside a game with a more complex chart, a
S1: more complex path to that goal of being more human. Obviously,
S1: Cain and Abel, what Cain did to Abel was very dehumanizing.
S1: It was competitive. and he murdered his brother. That's dehumanizing. And.
S1: And he accepted terms of unreality and and and then
S1: made those terms real so that in, in this framework
S1: that would say we'd be able to say, no, that's bad.
S1: But competitiveness itself remains untainted by that because there is
S1: a good competitiveness. I've said that, and I'm still not
S1: sure I've answered your question. You're using the word development.
S1: We can leave it there or you can push back.
S3: Well, I feel like I'm taking up a lot of time.
S3: I think I think what I'm trying to maybe figure out,
S3: and you're helping me nail down into the question is, um,
S3: is where what is the genesis of healthy competition? Because
S3: I think it's there, but I'm trying to find it
S3: as I work through development, problem solving, competition, if that
S3: makes sense. I'm trying to find it in, in in
S3: these frameworks that you've drawn. Drawn out here, I think
S3: it's there. I just I'm, I'm struggling to have to
S3: think through that.
S1: Yeah. Well we can you can leave. It is a
S1: really long conference, so we can just keep talking. We've
S1: got a couple days left.
S3: That's right.
S1: Okay. I'm gonna go over here.
S4: Yes.
S3: Um.
S8: I have a question about video games, so I wanted
S8: to first acknowledge their mixed bag. I totally get that. Um,
S8: but I was curious if you had any examples of
S8: where a video game that you've seen has made, uh,
S8: something more human and a reality that isn't the reality
S8: where it's been humanizing either for you or for, you know,
S8: it could be a personal thing. It could be a
S8: game that is dehumanizing to other people. But do you expect.
S1: But as long as I win, I'm feeling good. Video games. Well, again,
S1: I guess the, um, what it means to be human
S1: is is very complicated and diverse, and video games can
S1: humanize just using the terms that I've set out, humanize
S1: one aspect and dehumanize another aspect. Like when you're talking
S1: and this is maybe dating myself, but missed the game.
S1: Missed comes to mind. Puzzle. Puzzle solving. I loved it.
S1: Not a surprise given what I would go on later
S1: to do. And even that the game we're playing at
S1: the conference, solving puzzles, that is. It's so good for
S1: your brain and it's so fun and really hard ones
S1: that take, you know, hundreds of people to solve. I
S1: think they're so good for being human. Um, video games
S1: are so rough on many other aspects of humanity. Let
S1: me think. Smartphones have given us have blurred the question
S1: a bit, because you don't have to sit in front
S1: of a TV with a controller anymore. You can go
S1: out and go for a run and listen to zombies
S1: try to chase you, or you can play Pokemon Go
S1: with lots of other people, and the game makes you
S1: go to certain places and meet the people and play
S1: with them. And it happens all overlaid on the fabric
S1: of a neighborhood, and you find the game strengthens something.
S1: The neighborhood needs to be strong. So that's a maybe
S1: that's an example.
S4: Andy, can I offer something to that question?
S1: Yeah.
S4: Um, I play a lot of weird indie video games. Um,
S4: and I have found that there's a lot of indie
S4: games can offer humanizing experiences, um, especially when they have
S4: the puzzle solving. There's games like, um, braid is the
S4: the classic in the beautiful and super hard. Yes. It's beautiful. Yeah. Um,
S4: braid or Fez. Um, but games that, um, that have these,
S4: these that have puzzle solving and encourage, encouraged. You know,
S4: he felt this in mind, but also have good things
S4: to say, not necessarily in a didactic way, but you
S4: walk away and you're thinking about it and thinking about, okay,
S4: so this might take away from this game is making
S4: me think through what it means to be more human
S4: in this reality. Um, especially games that are beautiful aesthetically
S4: as well, like games that are, again, Braid or Fez,
S4: games that are artistic or creative encourage you to create. Yeah. Um,
S4: within their particular magic circle. Um, I would throw that
S4: out as examples of video games that humanize. Yeah.
S1: Or that dragon cancer. If you've come across that game, a, uh,
S1: a father made a game conveying the experience of experiencing
S1: his one year old son die of cancer. So in
S1: in the game, he kind of took that experience and
S1: expressed it in a video game in a way that's beautiful,
S1: but also very difficult.
S4: I have a few perspectives to add to that too.
S4: That's okay. And then I also have a question for you.
S9: Yeah. So I am involved in a group called Love
S9: by Nerd. And like one of their big things is
S9: like community building. Like they have like they're building up
S9: community thing, things like Destiny and Halo and like, among us.
S9: There was a group that was getting together regularly for that. Um,
S9: you know, I one of the. So there, you know,
S9: or like, you can play you know, you're listing off
S9: indie games and puzzle solving, but there's a lot of
S9: things where it's like, okay, you can look at some
S9: of the like Triple-A games like Mass Effect and like
S9: thinking through all the choices. And, you know, there's a
S9: lot of complex moral decisions that you're making through the
S9: storytelling that in some ways I think are, you know,
S9: it's similar to like my comparison is I don't watch TV.
S9: I play video games, you know? So, um, one thing,
S9: like one framework that I'm like, I literally heard this
S9: a month ago, so I'm still thinking about it. It's
S9: still very fresh in my mind. Um, but in for
S9: like in some in a field unrelated to recovery, someone
S9: was talking or unrelated to gaming, um, about recovery, someone
S9: was talking about the difference between self-care and coping. Self-care
S9: tends to be life giving actually helps you build connection
S9: with people, helps you come back feeling refreshed. Coping tends
S9: to be much more of a self selfish, inward, that
S9: sort of thing. And so I think that's probably for
S9: video games. Honestly, any single video game can be great
S9: for one person and terribly addictive for a different person.
S9: Like I think like probably 85% of video games fall within, like,
S9: you know, anyone, you know, it's going to be like that.
S9: And so it's really is this giving you life? Is
S9: this helping you be prepared for interactions with people. You
S9: know that you interact like people that you actually see.
S9: Not that. Or are you like, are you the college
S9: student who's failing because you're spending all of your time
S9: in World of Warcraft? You know, I think that's probably
S9: the differentiator. Um, so again, self care versus coping is
S9: something that I tend to, you know, I'm wrestling with. Okay.
S9: How much am I falling into more of the coping
S9: side with my own video game habits. Um, so I
S9: think those were my perspectives on that. Um, or are you.
S4: Or are you, like, for me, if I can interrupt
S4: you for a second? Lisa. Um. It's okay. We know
S4: each other, but, um, like or, you know, to your
S4: own point. Um, are you forming relationships with people in
S4: World of Warcraft that have a good influence on your
S4: life and make you a better person and therefore, you know,
S4: humanizing you? Yeah. Okay.
S9: Yeah. I mean, so it's it's about finding the balance
S9: because I'm very much an online community. It's definitely still community,
S9: but you can't do it for like, you can't lose
S9: your job over that sort of thing. Um, so the do.
S1: You have a question? And then there was one other
S1: question here. And we're going to move toward wrapping up,
S1: because it's hot in this room and we're there's more
S1: to be had.
S9: Um, the question that I had was, um, how like
S9: not being familiar with the games that you've actually designed. Like,
S9: can you kind of talk through, like how some of
S9: this has ended, like this framework has influenced your own
S9: game design?
S1: Sure. Um, yeah. So how how has this framework influenced
S1: my own game design? Um, I. So, like I said,
S1: I had a game business in Chicago, and people would,
S1: companies would hire me to make something of their Christmas
S1: party or their, you know, social team building outing thing. Uh,
S1: so I was limited by that. All the games that
S1: I've made came out of that and then out of
S1: experiences at La Brea. So just people, I had people
S1: in rooms instead of on screens or on on the internet.
S1: So yeah, all of this came in. It was all
S1: in play when I was making games for them. So
S1: thinking about can I is it okay as a Christian?
S1: Can I make people lie to each other? Is that okay?
S1: How do I think about that? So the magic circle
S1: helps with that, that actually in the game the symbols change.
S1: And so we can lie to each other and we're
S1: still safe. We can step out and tell one another
S1: the truth. And then having an idea of what it
S1: means to be a human. Because like I said earlier,
S1: I had a real power over people I could make.
S1: I could humiliate people, make them humiliate each other. So
S1: there was some guardrails there about, oh, this is what
S1: it means to be human. And sadly, the companies that
S1: paid me the most to take control of their vent
S1: were also companies that paid a lot to have open
S1: bars at their event. So I would know, like, okay,
S1: these people are going to be drunk and I'm going
S1: to that's the raw material I have to work with
S1: and I can how do I create, keep them safe
S1: and also not encourage them to do things that they
S1: would not that they will be uncomfortable with later on.
S1: So yeah, it was all it was in the background, um,
S1: in the design process, mostly around the boundaries. And then
S1: at the end of the day, as a criteria for
S1: whether or not how I feel about the game that
S1: I've made for people and the experience that they've had,
S1: even if they're upset at me or laughing, laughing with
S1: their friends and talking about how how great a time
S1: they had. Does that answer your question? Yeah. Keeping people
S1: safe was that was a big part of it. My
S1: thesis was how to make safe, pervasive games from a
S1: Christian perspective because people go crazy when they play games.
S1: I was thinking about, so I was hiding all those
S1: puzzles at this conference, and it brought me back to
S1: my Chicago days because I, I experienced firsthand how intense
S1: people can get, and I didn't. All those puzzles, the
S1: hiding places are so lame because I didn't want you
S1: to realize, oh, they're hidden in things and then take
S1: everything apart because some of you would do that. So
S1: I just taped them to the wall. So thinking through
S1: how what are people like and, and how powerful is
S1: a game and what are they like in, in the
S1: games and trying to keep them safe. Okay. What you
S1: had one and then we're going to be done.
S4: Uh, I was in the conversation ebbed and flowed, and
S4: I didn't pay attention to all the details. So I'm
S4: sorry if this is already said. Um, one of the very,
S4: very positive things that we have experienced with online gameplay
S4: is the real humanizing of and validation of people that
S4: don't always get it in real life. Mhm. Um, and
S4: because it doesn't have to be co-located, it can happen
S4: in an exceptionally safe way, um, where that person doesn't
S4: necessarily need to see us or interact with us the
S4: next day. So if they work out something online that
S4: they're embarrassed about, they know that we're still there for them.
S4: Days later, when they're ready to come back.
S1: Yeah. I yeah, all that is fair game. Uh, video
S1: games can be very humanizing. And I think some of
S1: the things you're, I'm just trying to think through your
S1: example on the framework, through the lens of the framework
S1: that I've laid out. Um, there is a, a dehumanization
S1: that people might labour under in the primary world that
S1: they can be free of in the secondary world. And
S1: that's actually part of the goodness and beauty of that
S1: digital community. Eliot T.S. Eliot said humankind cannot bear very
S1: much reality. Which is such a wonderful thought. And so
S1: there is a there is a reduction of reality. It's
S1: thinner online in many ways. Even, like if I'm friends
S1: with you. But I've never met you. That's a reduction
S1: of what friendship is. And in in its most robust form.
S1: But sometimes that can be a doorway into a deeper
S1: humanization because humankind cannot bear very much reality. Actually, reality
S1: being what it is, if we were in the same room,
S1: we probably wouldn't like each other or something. But we
S1: met online, and we built something online that we can
S1: bring into the same room. Yeah. Oh, that is fair game.
S1: I see people moving in the hall, so we're going
S1: to draw a dotted line here. Thank you very much everybody.