WEBVTT - What Is a Christian Game? 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:03.560 All right, team, shall we? Shall we begin? We we 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:06.800 need to wait for a couple more people, but we 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:12.600 can have like a pre a pre session mini conversation 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:17.160 as other people arrive. Uh, so I'll give a better 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:19.840 introduction than this. But my name is Andy Patton and 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:22.320 I'm going to talk. Thanks, Guy. I'm going to talk 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:26.200 about what is a Christian game. So in the before 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:29.240 the lecture proper starts, I'm going to pose that question 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:34.640 to you. What is a Christian game? You chose to 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:36.080 be here for a reason. 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:37.479 It's a game that's going to heaven. 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:41.080 The game that's going to heaven. Yeah. But the catch 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:43.320 is you never know if your game is going to 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:44.040 heaven or not. 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:46.480 Schrodinger never know. There's no certainty. 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:50.360 What was Nintendo Bible games back in the day? Nintendo 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:52.240 Bible games. They had those. Oh, yeah. 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:54.760 You were Noah and you had to, like, uh, carry 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:57.040 the sheep back to the ark. There was one in 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:00.510 the spirit that was basically Zelda, but with hymns and 0:01:00.550 --> 0:01:01.270 spiritual warfare. 0:01:01.270 --> 0:01:03.350 That's right. Somebody got paid a lot of money for 0:01:03.350 --> 0:01:03.710 that game. 0:01:03.910 --> 0:01:05.510 The spirit. And then the things would either go to 0:01:05.550 --> 0:01:07.630 heaven or go down to hell. That was awesome. 0:01:07.990 --> 0:01:09.310 Wow. Okay. 0:01:09.350 --> 0:01:13.110 Wonderful RPG. That was like the fruits of the spirits. 0:01:13.110 --> 0:01:16.789 Were the character attributes for you? Like the Christian dad 0:01:16.830 --> 0:01:17.470 or whatever? 0:01:17.709 --> 0:01:18.950 Yeah. Okay. 0:01:19.030 --> 0:01:21.510 Weirdest one had nothing to do with Christ. It was 0:01:21.510 --> 0:01:24.750 like you're saving the space ticket. But before that, it 0:01:24.750 --> 0:01:26.830 was like a Bible verse. Yes. 0:01:27.310 --> 0:01:30.990 Okay. So we're introducing some good concepts here. 0:01:32.270 --> 0:01:32.830 We're done. 0:01:33.430 --> 0:01:35.350 You guys are ready to give the lecture. I mean. 0:01:35.350 --> 0:01:35.709 That's. 0:01:36.470 --> 0:01:37.030 Yes. 0:01:37.910 --> 0:01:39.870 I don't know, but what I'd like to see is 0:01:39.870 --> 0:01:41.310 if a game could be a liturgy. 0:01:41.709 --> 0:01:43.350 If a game can be liturgy. 0:01:43.510 --> 0:01:46.750 Of it from beginning to end. If you give some 0:01:46.790 --> 0:01:50.590 truth about Christ could be illustrated and could grow. 0:01:50.910 --> 0:01:51.310 Mhm. 0:01:51.750 --> 0:01:52.870 Is that a possibility. 0:01:53.630 --> 0:01:57.340 We could explore that. Yeah we can explore that. So 0:01:58.220 --> 0:02:00.940 I'm just going to synthesize or summarize some of the 0:02:00.940 --> 0:02:06.100 themes I'm hearing here. So Christian content like Noah's Ark 0:02:06.340 --> 0:02:11.980 or a Bible verse, um, or fit in something about Christ, uh, 0:02:11.980 --> 0:02:15.540 that would make it more a Christian game that that is. 0:02:17.139 --> 0:02:18.820 I mean, I don't think that's good. I just think 0:02:18.820 --> 0:02:21.340 that's what I would think of as a Christian game. Yeah. 0:02:22.260 --> 0:02:22.579 I'm just. 0:02:22.580 --> 0:02:23.020 Kidding. 0:02:23.380 --> 0:02:24.220 I'm just kidding. 0:02:26.020 --> 0:02:28.380 I didn't mean it like as a veneer of Christian concept, 0:02:28.419 --> 0:02:28.740 you know, like. 0:02:29.260 --> 0:02:29.860 Yeah. Yeah. 0:02:30.060 --> 0:02:32.900 I just really meant, like, in the mechanics. 0:02:32.940 --> 0:02:38.940 Yes. Well, there's a whole conversation in game design about, uh, 0:02:39.100 --> 0:02:42.220 the didactic element of a game. And how do you 0:02:42.220 --> 0:02:47.340 integrate a message you're trying to convey? And should that be, 0:02:47.380 --> 0:02:50.619 should that be on the surface? Should it be mentioned 0:02:50.620 --> 0:02:52.940 at all, or is it a better game if you're 0:02:52.940 --> 0:02:56.690 trying to convey a message, but it is so deeply 0:02:56.690 --> 0:02:59.970 embedded that people are enjoying the experience and getting the message, 0:02:59.970 --> 0:03:04.450 but they don't know that they're getting the message. All 0:03:04.490 --> 0:03:06.850 that is, all that is good stuff to think about. 0:03:07.250 --> 0:03:09.730 Any other thoughts? What is a Christian game? 0:03:10.169 --> 0:03:10.810 I don't think it. 0:03:10.810 --> 0:03:16.730 Has something to do with the gameplay itself. Um, you know, uh, 0:03:17.169 --> 0:03:23.330 what is the experience like? Is the experience one that, uh, is, uh, 0:03:24.530 --> 0:03:27.809 Christ honoring? Right? Is it addicting? 0:03:28.490 --> 0:03:29.570 Is it addicting? 0:03:30.090 --> 0:03:30.650 Is it. 0:03:31.530 --> 0:03:33.850 You know, those types of things I think are also important. 0:03:33.930 --> 0:03:37.730 Um, so you said something to do with the experience 0:03:37.730 --> 0:03:40.690 when you're playing this game. What kind of an experience 0:03:40.730 --> 0:03:44.330 are you being drawn into? Is it Christ honoring? 0:03:45.650 --> 0:03:47.850 What is the fruit of the experience? 0:03:48.370 --> 0:03:52.330 Yeah. What does the experience produce in you after you 0:03:52.330 --> 0:03:53.170 play the game? 0:03:53.330 --> 0:03:54.800 The experience is telling you. 0:03:56.480 --> 0:04:00.320 Yeah, this this. That's a great comment. I used to 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:03.280 be a lab worker. And if you're if you're not 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:06.040 familiar with La Brea, it's a place it's like a 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:10.320 Christian retreat center. And people stop doing their normal lives 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:12.810 and they come live at La Brea for 3 to 0:04:12.810 --> 0:04:16.080 3 to 9 to 12 months. And we would have 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:22.039 conversations about things every day. Uh, so I would I 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:24.600 still am a La Brea worker a little bit. I, 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:28.080 I felt something labreche rise up in me when you 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:30.760 said Christ honoring. I'm going to take that and, like, 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:33.240 have a whole discussion about what does that even mean? 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:35.680 How do you honor Christ, let alone how do you 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:38.800 do it in a game? But I'm not a library 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:43.440 worker anymore. I'm a rabbit room lecturer today. Okay, let's 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:49.039 start the actual lecture now. Uh, I'm Andy Patton, and 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:51.039 I work for the rabbit room. And before I worked 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:53.669 for the rabbit room, I worked for La Brea in England, 0:04:53.910 --> 0:04:57.430 and before I did that, I lived in Chicago and 0:04:57.470 --> 0:05:00.190 started a game company there at the same time as 0:05:00.190 --> 0:05:03.830 I started seminary. So there were some there were. This 0:05:03.830 --> 0:05:06.349 question or the topic at hand is what is a 0:05:06.350 --> 0:05:10.270 Christian game? That was really bubbling around in my in 0:05:10.270 --> 0:05:13.190 my head during the years of seminary, because I was 0:05:13.550 --> 0:05:16.990 trying to get companies to pay me to entertain them 0:05:16.990 --> 0:05:20.190 with games and was, you know, by night and by 0:05:20.190 --> 0:05:23.470 day I was reading, reading theology and writing theology papers. 0:05:24.150 --> 0:05:28.150 So this this lecture was my capstone at the end 0:05:28.150 --> 0:05:32.429 of seminary. So looking at what what is a Christian game? 0:05:33.230 --> 0:05:36.190 Is there is there a a framework that we can 0:05:36.190 --> 0:05:41.990 apply to any game and assess it? Christianly. What does 0:05:42.589 --> 0:05:45.950 that word christianly even mean? That's going to mean a 0:05:45.950 --> 0:05:49.670 lot of things to different people. Is that even a 0:05:49.670 --> 0:05:52.660 word that we can apply to things. And when we 0:05:52.660 --> 0:05:57.100 apply that to things, what are we assuming? What are 0:05:57.100 --> 0:06:00.940 we taking for granted? How deep does that have to go? 0:06:01.500 --> 0:06:05.140 Can there be someone brought up the idea of a 0:06:05.180 --> 0:06:08.300 Noah's Ark Nintendo game? I'm sure that was a huge 0:06:08.339 --> 0:06:14.060 seller right up there with with Mario. If it is 0:06:14.060 --> 0:06:17.980 dealing with Christian language or Christian stories or Christian imagery, 0:06:17.980 --> 0:06:21.060 is it a Christian game? Can there be games like 0:06:21.060 --> 0:06:25.860 that that are un-Christian? Again, whatever that means. Can there 0:06:25.900 --> 0:06:33.340 be Christian games that have no level of reference to 0:06:33.339 --> 0:06:37.540 the Bible? No scripture quotations? They're not. They're not touching 0:06:37.540 --> 0:06:42.140 something that would be easily recognizable to Christians from something 0:06:42.140 --> 0:06:46.860 they might experience in church. I'm going to take a 0:06:46.860 --> 0:06:49.210 crack at some of those questions, but really, what I'm 0:06:49.210 --> 0:06:51.290 going to do in the next 45 minutes to an 0:06:51.290 --> 0:06:54.969 hour is present. A framework that you can use to 0:06:55.010 --> 0:06:58.289 think through these questions on your own. So that's that's 0:06:58.290 --> 0:07:01.130 where we're going. And that's just a bit about who 0:07:01.130 --> 0:07:07.730 I am. So my my definition of what is a 0:07:07.730 --> 0:07:12.170 Christian or what is a Christian thing. I'll just say 0:07:12.170 --> 0:07:14.770 that at the outset, because in a room this size 0:07:14.770 --> 0:07:18.090 we will there will be many different understandings of that. 0:07:18.090 --> 0:07:21.490 So I'm laying my cards on the table. I think 0:07:21.690 --> 0:07:26.530 if something is Christian, it is something that helps us 0:07:26.570 --> 0:07:31.370 be more human in the real, whatever reality is. So 0:07:31.410 --> 0:07:34.650 and there's some assumptions in that definition. One of the 0:07:34.650 --> 0:07:39.210 assumptions is God is reality. And God has created everything 0:07:39.370 --> 0:07:42.610 and has spoken into the world in such a way 0:07:42.610 --> 0:07:45.570 as to be understood. And one of the things that 0:07:45.570 --> 0:07:50.320 he did in creating was to create his image bearers people. 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:54.040 We bear his image and that's a whole different discussion. 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:57.760 We'll get into it a little bit. Yet that image 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:03.040 is marred in us and creation is is marred. It 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:06.400 wasn't only the first two chapters of Genesis. The third 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:09.640 and following chapters happened also. So there was a fall. 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:15.640 So everything is a bit twisted. And the question of 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:19.480 the hour is can games help with the untwisting? And 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:21.800 I'm going to say, if the answer is yes, then 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:25.880 in that sense it is Christian. So that's that's my thesis. 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:31.000 There's going to be a lot of theology here. So 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.439 buckle up. We have not one door but two in 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.760 case you need to use them. Uh, but first we're 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.360 going to do a little game design theory. I want 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:47.710 to introduce one concept called the Magic Circle. um. Johann 0:08:47.710 --> 0:08:51.230 Wiesinger is considered by some to be the father of 0:08:51.270 --> 0:08:54.910 game design studies, and he he he wrote a book 0:08:54.910 --> 0:08:57.510 called Homo Ludens. And here I'm going to read a 0:08:57.510 --> 0:09:01.790 quote from Homo Ludens introducing the concept of the magic circle. 0:09:02.230 --> 0:09:06.189 And then we'll be dealing with this concept throughout our discussion. 0:09:06.870 --> 0:09:09.910 So here is here's the quote. And it didn't print 0:09:09.910 --> 0:09:12.069 very well. So I'm going to use refer to my 0:09:12.070 --> 0:09:19.069 notes here. This is from Homo Ludens. All play moves 0:09:19.070 --> 0:09:23.630 and has it's being within a playground. The magic circle 0:09:24.350 --> 0:09:31.110 forbidden spots isolated hedged round hallowed within which special rules obtain. 0:09:31.510 --> 0:09:35.470 All are temporary worlds within the ordinary world. Dedicated to 0:09:35.470 --> 0:09:39.349 the performance of an act apart. So that's pretty wordy, 0:09:39.710 --> 0:09:43.340 but it's. He's saying something very A significant when it 0:09:43.340 --> 0:09:46.420 comes to defining what a game is and what happens 0:09:46.420 --> 0:09:49.540 inside of a game. So I'll read it again. All 0:09:49.540 --> 0:09:53.820 play moves and has its being Bible reference. There must 0:09:53.820 --> 0:09:58.900 be a Christian quote within a playground. The magic circle. 0:09:59.620 --> 0:10:06.380 Forbidden spots, isolated, hedged, round, hallowed within which special rules obtain. 0:10:06.740 --> 0:10:11.219 All are temporary worlds within the ordinary world. Dedicated to 0:10:11.220 --> 0:10:17.100 the performance of an act apart. So let's just let's 0:10:17.100 --> 0:10:21.740 just break that down a little bit. Uh, the the 0:10:21.740 --> 0:10:25.780 magic circle. He says the all play happens within a 0:10:25.780 --> 0:10:27.980 magic circle, and it's like a it's like a bubble. 0:10:27.980 --> 0:10:31.140 It's like a bubble into another dimension. And special rules 0:10:31.140 --> 0:10:34.780 happen inside this bubble. And the the magic circle has 0:10:34.780 --> 0:10:38.900 three dimensions. There's spatial, social and temporal. So spatial. Just 0:10:38.900 --> 0:10:42.569 think about monopoly. Monopoly happens at a table. So that's 0:10:42.570 --> 0:10:46.410 its spatial dimension. It's somewhat limited. You've got the board there. 0:10:46.410 --> 0:10:50.970 You're interacting with things. It is social. You're playing with 0:10:51.809 --> 0:10:54.610 three to 3 to 6 people who are increasingly having 0:10:54.610 --> 0:11:00.130 a terrible time. It's temporal. It takes you slog through 0:11:00.130 --> 0:11:02.929 several hours during during the course of a game of 0:11:02.929 --> 0:11:06.770 monopoly so that there there are those are the the boundaries, 0:11:06.770 --> 0:11:09.770 the dimensions of the magic circle. And different games play 0:11:09.770 --> 0:11:12.610 with those dimensions in different ways. So you could have 0:11:12.610 --> 0:11:15.209 a game that's the size of a postage stamp or 0:11:15.210 --> 0:11:17.650 the size of the whole world. You can have a 0:11:17.650 --> 0:11:20.290 game that takes three hours or it never ends. You 0:11:20.290 --> 0:11:23.089 can have a game that's you play alone or you 0:11:23.090 --> 0:11:27.810 play with 6 million people. So all of that, the 0:11:27.809 --> 0:11:31.970 magic circle can be very it's it's very variable depending 0:11:31.970 --> 0:11:35.410 on what game you're playing. Another point about the magic 0:11:35.410 --> 0:11:40.200 circle is it's separated. There's a boundary, you can step 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:44.600 inside that boundary and you're in. He says different rules apply. 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:47.800 So the the magic circle has a start and a 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.600 stop most of the time. I'm I'm now in the 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.120 game and I step back, step up from the table 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:54.679 to take a phone call. And I'm not playing the 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:59.960 game anymore. So what is magic about the magic circle? 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:04.760 This is where it gets interesting. Inside the magic circle. 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.800 New rules, he says new rules obtained within which special 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:12.440 rules obtain. So it's it's like when you go to 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:16.760 another culture, you get on the plane in Atlanta, get 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.400 off in Paris, and you are in a world where 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.480 new rules obtain things that you could do before you 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:24.960 got on the plane. You can no longer do appropriately 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.160 after you get on the plane. Playing a game is 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:31.959 like that. It's a temporary world that changes the meaning 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:34.120 of things. So my favorite example of this is the 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:38.150 game twister. So normally if I put my foot near 0:12:38.150 --> 0:12:42.030 your face that you would be insulted, you would pull back. 0:12:43.230 --> 0:12:46.070 There's a rule we all feel. And with that rule, 0:12:46.070 --> 0:12:49.550 we feel it at a deep level. I'm offended. And 0:12:49.550 --> 0:12:52.950 your foot stinks. But when you play the game of twister, 0:12:52.950 --> 0:12:55.990 that is why you play the game. It's funny. So 0:12:55.990 --> 0:12:59.430 something that is offensive becomes funny. And we all, we 0:12:59.429 --> 0:13:01.829 all came to this mat with colored dots on it 0:13:01.830 --> 0:13:04.429 so we could put our stinky feet in one another's faces. 0:13:05.190 --> 0:13:07.709 And if you get offended by that, you are breaking 0:13:07.710 --> 0:13:10.870 the rules of the game and you should. If something 0:13:10.870 --> 0:13:15.189 goes wrong, the game becomes a little broken. Um, or 0:13:15.230 --> 0:13:18.550 think about Cards Against Humanity. Anyone ever played Cards Against Humanity? 0:13:19.830 --> 0:13:23.910 So it's uncomfortable. It's a game. It's like apples to apples. 0:13:24.309 --> 0:13:27.630 You are the only one who raised your hand. That's amazing. Okay. 0:13:27.670 --> 0:13:30.589 Cards against humanity. Because not many of you raised your hands. 0:13:31.030 --> 0:13:35.900 Pairs things with other things. And Apples to Apples is 0:13:35.940 --> 0:13:37.820 a game you could play with your kids that does 0:13:37.820 --> 0:13:40.339 the same thing. Cards Against Humanity you could not play 0:13:40.340 --> 0:13:44.060 with your kids to varying degrees. So it takes these 0:13:44.059 --> 0:13:46.700 things that these norms that we all know and we all, 0:13:47.220 --> 0:13:49.260 most of the time abide by about what you can 0:13:49.260 --> 0:13:52.420 joke about and what you can't joke about. And inside 0:13:52.420 --> 0:13:55.859 the magic circle, you can joke about them. Grandpa's ashes, 0:13:56.300 --> 0:14:02.100 the Holocaust, you know, different ethnicities. It's all very uncomfortable. 0:14:02.140 --> 0:14:05.819 I don't like to play the game. I think I 0:14:05.820 --> 0:14:09.620 think the game uses the magic circle against people. So 0:14:09.620 --> 0:14:13.260 you can. You're having fun doing something that you probably 0:14:13.260 --> 0:14:19.060 should not be having fun with. But it is interesting. 0:14:19.060 --> 0:14:21.380 The power of the magic circle. You can make these 0:14:21.380 --> 0:14:26.300 jokes that would be painfully awkward. And inside the magic circle, 0:14:26.500 --> 0:14:30.700 that very awkwardness is kind of transmuted into humor, and 0:14:30.700 --> 0:14:33.610 if it wasn't awkward, it would not be funny. And 0:14:33.610 --> 0:14:36.530 Cards Against Humanity would not have made the millions that 0:14:36.850 --> 0:14:41.570 that it has made its creators. Um, so there, there, 0:14:41.610 --> 0:14:44.610 there's the magic circle. When we step into the world 0:14:44.610 --> 0:14:48.250 of games, we are stepping into another world. And it is. 0:14:48.250 --> 0:14:51.850 It's crossing that barrier is is very powerful because you 0:14:51.850 --> 0:14:53.690 can use games to make people do things that they 0:14:53.690 --> 0:14:57.850 wouldn't otherwise do, like joke about grandpa's ashes. And so 0:14:58.090 --> 0:15:01.050 as a game designer, there's a there's a real responsibility there. 0:15:01.490 --> 0:15:04.530 And there's a real power because you are a world builder. 0:15:05.010 --> 0:15:08.570 You can make people, you can control people. You can 0:15:08.570 --> 0:15:11.050 make them do things that they wouldn't, they wouldn't otherwise do. 0:15:11.050 --> 0:15:13.290 And maybe they don't even know that they're being controlled. 0:15:13.290 --> 0:15:16.770 So there's a real responsibility, and there's a real, um, 0:15:16.930 --> 0:15:20.210 for a person who is a Christian and a game maker, 0:15:20.450 --> 0:15:23.570 there's a whole there's a whole level of thinking that 0:15:23.570 --> 0:15:27.010 needs to happen. So for the remainder of what I 0:15:27.010 --> 0:15:30.450 have to say, I'm just going to, um, offer a 0:15:30.450 --> 0:15:34.800 collection of concepts that can be assembled into a framework 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:38.080 that can help you think through this stuff. So here 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:42.520 are the concepts. Games are created things. Games are expressions 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:48.040 of dominion. Games are intensifications of reality. They're vehicles of 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:53.240 humanization or dehumanization. They are mirrors that show us ourselves. 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:59.440 And they can be masks which can. Create healing. They 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:04.240 can be healing masks. So let's jump in. Games is 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:08.880 created things. And this is where the theology comes. Did 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:14.800 God make games? What do you think? Yes. Yes. Okay. 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:21.080 Did God make tag? Yes, yes, God made tag. He 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:23.960 chiseled out the rules in the Ten Commandments. 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.200 He made the ability to do it, though, and he 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:29.320 gave us the brain to enjoy it and think about it. 0:16:29.390 --> 0:16:33.870 Yeah. Yeah, that's that's my next point. Well done. He 0:16:33.870 --> 0:16:36.190 gave us the ability to do it. Yes. He created 0:16:36.190 --> 0:16:39.950 the potentiality for the game of tag to exist. Yeah. 0:16:40.310 --> 0:16:46.070 So there's a sense in which often I've been in 0:16:46.070 --> 0:16:49.830 conversations in church settings about Eden and the world, the 0:16:49.870 --> 0:16:53.350 word perfect is thrown around. Eden was perfect. Genesis one 0:16:53.350 --> 0:16:57.550 and two God plops his image bearers down in this garden, 0:16:57.590 --> 0:17:00.510 this quote unquote perfect garden. But clearly it was not 0:17:00.510 --> 0:17:05.429 perfect because the story doesn't end there. It is good 0:17:05.710 --> 0:17:07.629 in the language of the story. It is. It is 0:17:07.630 --> 0:17:11.870 good and very good. But it is not finished. So 0:17:11.869 --> 0:17:16.189 God made his, made a good creation, and then plopped 0:17:16.190 --> 0:17:19.710 his image bearers inside it and gave them the dignity 0:17:19.710 --> 0:17:23.470 of agency so humans can really cause things to happen. 0:17:23.830 --> 0:17:25.590 And the part of what it means to be an 0:17:25.590 --> 0:17:28.700 image bearer of God is to sub create, which is 0:17:28.740 --> 0:17:31.780 a word that this audience will be very familiar with. 0:17:32.260 --> 0:17:35.860 Tolkien made it up so we can't make something from nothing, 0:17:35.859 --> 0:17:39.100 but we can make something from something. And actually, that was. 0:17:39.140 --> 0:17:44.739 That's the whole idea. Um, there is a there's a 0:17:44.740 --> 0:17:48.820 latent potential in God's creation. It wasn't perfect in the 0:17:48.820 --> 0:17:52.980 sense of being finished, but it was perfect in the 0:17:52.980 --> 0:17:57.139 sense of we had. We humanity, as God's image bearers, 0:17:57.140 --> 0:18:01.540 had everything we needed, needed to continue to spread the 0:18:01.540 --> 0:18:04.060 flourishing of the garden, so to speak. But that's not 0:18:04.060 --> 0:18:09.220 what happens. Actually, the opposite happens in Genesis three happens 0:18:09.220 --> 0:18:13.780 to fall. God's image bearers turn away from him, and 0:18:13.780 --> 0:18:16.939 instead of spreading the peace and flourishing of the garden 0:18:16.940 --> 0:18:22.100 throughout the created order, they spread disaster. So Genesis four, uh, 0:18:22.540 --> 0:18:25.340 all the disaster begins to gather to a greatness leading 0:18:25.340 --> 0:18:27.770 up to the Tower of Babel. This is. We're just 0:18:27.770 --> 0:18:31.369 doing some Bible stuff where everyone is gathering their disaster 0:18:31.369 --> 0:18:36.090 together into this monumental pillar to what they can achieve. 0:18:36.530 --> 0:18:39.649 So that was supposed to be a gathering of the 0:18:39.650 --> 0:18:45.490 flourishing that God had built latently into creation, and instead 0:18:45.490 --> 0:18:50.170 they gathered together to dominate. And the story of Genesis 0:18:50.170 --> 0:18:53.570 four to Genesis 11 is one of increasing mayhem and 0:18:53.609 --> 0:18:58.730 and God intervening to stop the disaster, stop the spread 0:18:58.730 --> 0:19:04.690 of the disaster. Um, so let's just think about think 0:19:04.690 --> 0:19:09.210 about cities. Were we supposed to make cities? The first 0:19:09.210 --> 0:19:12.410 appearance of cities you get is in Genesis four. So 0:19:12.410 --> 0:19:15.570 people are drawing together and things get really ugly and 0:19:15.570 --> 0:19:18.450 really nasty. And the thoughts of humanity are always bad 0:19:18.450 --> 0:19:22.210 all the time. This terrible phrase. So we went from 0:19:22.210 --> 0:19:25.080 a garden of flourishing and peace to a city of 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:28.040 disaster that would set up a. Seem to set up 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:31.040 a dichotomy where gardens are good and cities are bad, 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:33.439 and cities are what happens after the fall. However, if 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:35.840 you skip to the end of the Bible, you get 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:39.600 a redeemed garden city that God calls the New Jerusalem 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:43.120 and calls his home and his throne. So it's it's 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:46.600 a very evocative and dense picture of this city that 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:50.320 looks like a garden. So God had something he made 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:55.680 and something fallen. Humanity made, and it's redeemed and becomes 0:19:55.680 --> 0:20:00.440 the ultimate expression of what? God and humanity. What beauty 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:04.840 can be made. So I would put stick games somewhere 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.680 in that trajectory so that we are supposed to make, 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.160 and we're supposed to make in such a way that 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:16.879 it increases the flourishing of the garden, brings, draws the 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:21.440 flourishing of the garden into time and space now. And 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.830 games games are games are in there somewhere. So that's 0:20:24.869 --> 0:20:28.149 that's I remember I said framework. So this is an 0:20:28.150 --> 0:20:30.910 idea I've plopped into your heads and now you can 0:20:30.950 --> 0:20:35.430 think about, um, okay what is does this game do 0:20:35.430 --> 0:20:37.590 this or does this. If your game designer here does 0:20:37.590 --> 0:20:40.190 this idea have for a game? How does how does 0:20:40.190 --> 0:20:45.030 that function? Uh, me as a as an image bearer 0:20:45.030 --> 0:20:48.870 of God called to bring order and flourishing to creation. 0:20:50.109 --> 0:20:55.109 Number two games as expressions of dominion. So here's a 0:20:55.630 --> 0:21:01.270 Old Testament question. What is the first temple? What is 0:21:01.270 --> 0:21:04.790 the first temple? Think about it for a second. This 0:21:04.790 --> 0:21:09.230 is audience participation. I have an idea in mind, but 0:21:09.270 --> 0:21:10.950 it's no shame if you don't say it. 0:21:11.470 --> 0:21:17.390 Like first God's first temple or like Tower of Babel. Okay. 0:21:19.350 --> 0:21:20.189 Garden of Eden. 0:21:22.540 --> 0:21:23.220 Say that again. 0:21:23.260 --> 0:21:23.700 The Ark. 0:21:23.900 --> 0:21:27.300 The Ark of the covenant. The Garden of Eden. It's 0:21:27.300 --> 0:21:30.260 harder to go far, too far back behind the Garden 0:21:30.300 --> 0:21:32.780 of Eden. What makes you say that? 0:21:34.340 --> 0:21:34.780 Well. 0:21:35.500 --> 0:21:38.060 I'd say that's an unconventional answer. Probably. 0:21:38.460 --> 0:21:39.220 Yeah, well. 0:21:39.420 --> 0:21:42.060 I heard this lecture once where they were talking about 0:21:42.060 --> 0:21:45.460 how the story of Genesis or the story of creation 0:21:45.460 --> 0:21:47.340 mirrors the building of a temple. And then the final 0:21:47.340 --> 0:21:49.260 thing you put in a temple is the image of 0:21:49.260 --> 0:21:51.419 the god. And the final thing that's put in creation 0:21:51.420 --> 0:21:53.380 is human beings in the image of God. 0:21:54.859 --> 0:21:57.139 That was the answer I was looking for. The Garden of. 0:21:57.140 --> 0:21:57.460 Eden. 0:21:58.300 --> 0:22:01.660 The Garden of Eden? Yes. The Garden of Eden. Yeah. Most. 0:22:01.700 --> 0:22:05.660 The first official temple. Stone temple is the temple, which 0:22:05.700 --> 0:22:09.140 of course is preceded by the tabernacle during the wandering years. 0:22:09.540 --> 0:22:12.420 But farther back, if you look at the way the 0:22:12.420 --> 0:22:16.820 garden in Eden is described, it looks the tabernacle looks 0:22:16.820 --> 0:22:19.690 like it. And then the temple looks like it. It's 0:22:19.690 --> 0:22:23.369 got three tiers. It's got progressive holiness. As you extend 0:22:23.369 --> 0:22:26.930 away from the tree of life, the image of God 0:22:26.930 --> 0:22:31.370 is in it. And then you get to the moment 0:22:31.369 --> 0:22:33.490 in the history of the Old Testament when the actual 0:22:33.490 --> 0:22:36.170 temple is being built, like the stone temple, and it's 0:22:36.170 --> 0:22:39.210 got jungle carvings all over it. And so it's got 0:22:39.210 --> 0:22:42.490 all these things that a people who have been shaped 0:22:42.490 --> 0:22:48.369 culturally by the stories of Genesis will recognize as, oh, 0:22:48.410 --> 0:22:49.969 this is this is Eden. It was supposed to be 0:22:49.970 --> 0:22:54.250 like coming back into Eden. Why did I start there? 0:22:54.530 --> 0:22:58.850 So in Genesis, God says, God gives them what some 0:22:58.850 --> 0:23:02.050 would call the creation mandate, be fruitful and multiply and 0:23:02.050 --> 0:23:05.210 spread the peace that I've given you throughout all of creation. 0:23:05.210 --> 0:23:08.129 And like I said, that that isn't how it works. 0:23:08.130 --> 0:23:11.689 But that was the idea that the thing that's happening 0:23:11.690 --> 0:23:18.719 here will spread throughout, throughout all of creation, in increasing circles. Um, 0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:23.120 so the, the idea of having dominion. So this I'm 0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:26.479 talking about games as expressions of dominion, having dominion be 0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:30.040 fruitful and multiply, have dominion over creation. That doesn't mean 0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:34.359 have babies and dig mines like exercising domination. But it's 0:23:34.359 --> 0:23:36.760 more along the lines, as I've come to think of it, 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:39.520 as like the the Dominion that a gardener has over 0:23:39.560 --> 0:23:43.439 a garden, that I'm using my agency and the ability 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:46.360 to cause things to happen to, to order and structure 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:49.359 this little piece of the kingdom in such a way 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:55.160 that it flourishes as a good gardener. Um, and that 0:23:55.160 --> 0:24:01.800 is always, in a sense, the call of humanity. Even today, uh, 0:24:01.800 --> 0:24:04.600 we don't live in a time of history where part 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:11.240 of worshiping God is going to a temple in Jerusalem. However, 0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:15.950 the the trajectory of what God's image bearers are supposed 0:24:15.950 --> 0:24:19.390 to take part in around them is still the same. 0:24:19.390 --> 0:24:25.030 So it's this increasing flourishing and ordering and promotion of 0:24:25.510 --> 0:24:32.149 the good that God gave the world in your place. Um, 0:24:32.470 --> 0:24:36.270 the mechanics of redemption are always to move outward from 0:24:36.270 --> 0:24:41.030 God's people, establishing order from chaos, pushing back the effects 0:24:41.030 --> 0:24:45.030 of the fall to to one degree or another. Never completely, 0:24:45.030 --> 0:24:47.830 but pushing back the effects of the fall. Living in 0:24:47.830 --> 0:24:51.790 a new way in which different norms, special rules obtain 0:24:52.350 --> 0:24:58.630 to create sacred spaces hedged in and hallowed, uh, that 0:24:58.630 --> 0:25:01.470 are always expanding outward. So I'm lining what I'm saying 0:25:01.470 --> 0:25:05.070 here about the call of God with what I was 0:25:05.070 --> 0:25:08.550 saying about what a game is. So to create this circle, 0:25:08.590 --> 0:25:11.149 this magic circle. And when you step inside, different rules 0:25:11.150 --> 0:25:14.180 obtain in some ways that's a that's a game designer's 0:25:14.180 --> 0:25:16.780 take on the kingdom of God. So that when I 0:25:16.820 --> 0:25:19.500 come here, when I come to this place or around 0:25:19.500 --> 0:25:22.979 this person, I'm entering, I'm passing through the barrier of 0:25:22.980 --> 0:25:26.419 a magic circle where this this might happen out there, 0:25:26.420 --> 0:25:28.540 but it doesn't happen in here. So this is a 0:25:28.540 --> 0:25:32.740 new kingdom in which special rules obtain. And the call 0:25:32.740 --> 0:25:34.820 of the game maker and of the game player is 0:25:34.820 --> 0:25:39.020 to is to do in miniature what the call of 0:25:39.020 --> 0:25:42.660 humanity is to do on the macro scale and what 0:25:42.700 --> 0:25:47.020 God does, taking the stuff of creation and forming it 0:25:47.020 --> 0:25:52.140 in such a way that the a circle is created 0:25:52.420 --> 0:25:55.739 in which people enter and experience what life would be 0:25:55.740 --> 0:25:59.260 like under the Lordship of Christ to one degree or another. 0:26:00.020 --> 0:26:02.020 What is what is the Lordship of Christ? What does 0:26:02.020 --> 0:26:05.140 it mean to be Christ honoring? Uh, that's that's again, 0:26:05.140 --> 0:26:07.580 a whole different discussion. This is a framework. Can it 0:26:07.619 --> 0:26:09.820 does it need to have a Bible verse? Can is 0:26:09.820 --> 0:26:13.010 it permitted to have a Bible verse? I don't know. 0:26:13.050 --> 0:26:18.330 Depends on the game. Okay, games can make us more human. 0:26:18.330 --> 0:26:21.010 So we've talked about games as created things. God made 0:26:21.010 --> 0:26:22.969 this in a sense, or made the potentiality for it 0:26:22.970 --> 0:26:27.250 to exist. Expressions of dominion. How we games fit into 0:26:27.250 --> 0:26:30.650 our work. What does it mean to be human? And 0:26:30.650 --> 0:26:33.730 can games make us more human? Going back to my 0:26:33.730 --> 0:26:37.010 definition in the beginning, that a Christian game is something 0:26:37.010 --> 0:26:41.210 that makes us more human in a reality that is 0:26:41.210 --> 0:26:45.490 more real. What does it mean to be human in Genesis? 0:26:45.530 --> 0:26:47.449 You get in the beginning of Genesis, you get a 0:26:47.450 --> 0:26:51.290 complicated picture, and there's not a propositional definition of what 0:26:51.290 --> 0:26:55.450 it means to be human, but it is a dense, poetic. 0:26:57.490 --> 0:27:00.489 Truth ball. And you can look at that and be 0:27:00.490 --> 0:27:03.010 shaped by it. And a picture of what it means 0:27:03.010 --> 0:27:07.290 to be human emerges. So there are some this is 0:27:07.290 --> 0:27:10.479 going to be an audience participation again, According to Genesis 0:27:10.520 --> 0:27:15.160 one and two. And if you are not familiar with 0:27:15.160 --> 0:27:18.119 the Bible, or even not a Christian in this room, 0:27:18.400 --> 0:27:22.920 I'm sorry. I am not slowing down more. I'm kind 0:27:22.920 --> 0:27:27.600 of digging from a seminary paper and trying to apply 0:27:27.600 --> 0:27:30.240 it in a way that's understandable. But if I'm saying 0:27:30.240 --> 0:27:32.919 the Temple and Eden and all that stuff and it's 0:27:32.920 --> 0:27:36.120 just like, what the heck is that? I apologize. Please 0:27:36.119 --> 0:27:40.320 talk to me afterward. I can go over anything you want. Um, 0:27:40.320 --> 0:27:42.640 but in Genesis, for those of you who are familiar 0:27:42.640 --> 0:27:46.000 with the first two chapters, you get a picture. What 0:27:46.000 --> 0:27:48.920 is it like? What is it like to be human 0:27:48.920 --> 0:27:53.440 in Genesis one and two? I'm going to start some 0:27:53.440 --> 0:27:56.679 answers and then turn it over to you. They are social. 0:27:57.240 --> 0:28:00.160 It's not good for man to be alone. Adam was 0:28:00.160 --> 0:28:02.360 not always alone. What else? 0:28:04.119 --> 0:28:07.070 There's an agency and authority in, like, naming the animals. Awesome. 0:28:07.109 --> 0:28:11.470 Yes. God invites Adam to name the animals. God brings 0:28:11.470 --> 0:28:14.030 the animals to them to see what they are named. 0:28:14.070 --> 0:28:16.869 Adam gives them a name and then that is what 0:28:16.869 --> 0:28:21.190 they are named. It's like almost painfully detailing. This is real. 0:28:21.230 --> 0:28:24.470 This this Adam is causing things to happen. So there's 0:28:24.510 --> 0:28:28.670 a there's a work dimension. Um, he's not sunbathing all 0:28:28.670 --> 0:28:29.230 the time. 0:28:29.950 --> 0:28:30.990 There's some order. 0:28:31.350 --> 0:28:36.270 Order? Yes, it's very ordered. Yeah. The picture there is. 0:28:36.310 --> 0:28:40.750 They are. They're not inhabiting chaos. They're inhabiting a garden. 0:28:40.750 --> 0:28:45.790 There's rules. There's. There's things that they can get to 0:28:45.830 --> 0:28:49.310 satisfy their needs. Yeah, it's an ordered place. What else? 0:28:49.630 --> 0:28:51.110 People who enjoy things. 0:28:51.390 --> 0:28:53.750 Enjoy things. Where are you getting that? 0:28:54.310 --> 0:28:55.430 Um. Well, because. 0:28:55.470 --> 0:28:56.030 God. 0:28:56.590 --> 0:29:01.510 Gave them, um, the fruit of any tree except the 0:29:01.510 --> 0:29:03.590 tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He said, look, 0:29:03.630 --> 0:29:06.580 you can have all of this, And I guess the 0:29:06.580 --> 0:29:09.020 implication is that there wouldn't be this wide variety if 0:29:09.020 --> 0:29:10.780 it wasn't there to be enjoyed. 0:29:11.620 --> 0:29:13.220 Um, and they're beautiful. 0:29:13.260 --> 0:29:13.380 And. 0:29:13.380 --> 0:29:13.900 They're and they're. 0:29:13.900 --> 0:29:14.460 Beautiful. 0:29:14.780 --> 0:29:18.820 They're beautiful and presumably delicious. Yeah. And God pronounces the 0:29:18.820 --> 0:29:23.060 things he makes good. Yes. There's that word Tov. That 0:29:23.060 --> 0:29:26.740 is a deep and rich goodness. What else? 0:29:26.780 --> 0:29:27.700 There's boundaries. 0:29:27.820 --> 0:29:32.500 Boundaries? Yeah. Do this. Don't do that. Mhm. 0:29:32.660 --> 0:29:33.020 So you. 0:29:33.020 --> 0:29:33.540 Can get kicked. 0:29:33.540 --> 0:29:33.900 Out of. 0:29:33.900 --> 0:29:36.420 It. Yes. There are boundaries and there they end up 0:29:36.420 --> 0:29:38.540 being exiled and they don't get to come back. 0:29:38.700 --> 0:29:39.660 Consequences for. 0:29:39.660 --> 0:29:40.100 Breaking. 0:29:40.100 --> 0:29:40.820 Boundaries. 0:29:40.860 --> 0:29:43.700 Yeah. Part of being human means to exist in a 0:29:43.740 --> 0:29:45.860 moral dimension. 0:29:46.740 --> 0:29:49.780 So living. I mean, uh, what comes to mind is 0:29:49.780 --> 0:29:52.020 the idea that it wasn't meant for them to just 0:29:52.020 --> 0:29:54.660 be there, and then it just exists as it is 0:29:54.660 --> 0:29:57.020 for all eternity. It was meant for something to happen. 0:29:57.060 --> 0:30:00.340 There were raw materials, and they were to contribute, and 0:30:00.340 --> 0:30:01.620 something was to come out of it. 0:30:01.660 --> 0:30:04.290 I think so, yeah. That's that. That needle is not 0:30:04.290 --> 0:30:07.450 threaded so explicitly in the narrative, but I think that's 0:30:07.450 --> 0:30:10.530 what the rivers mean. Actually, the rivers that go down 0:30:10.970 --> 0:30:14.130 into these other kingdoms, the Piece of Eden was supposed 0:30:14.130 --> 0:30:18.130 to spread, spread there. And instead the fall happens and 0:30:18.130 --> 0:30:21.330 the disaster spreads there. And those four places correspond to 0:30:21.370 --> 0:30:27.410 the four big enemies of the Old Testament Assyria, Egypt, Canaan, Babylon. Yes, 0:30:27.410 --> 0:30:29.370 but that's not what was supposed to happen. 0:30:29.410 --> 0:30:34.530 Presumably the wilderness, which is like the first chapter of Genesis, 0:30:34.570 --> 0:30:37.570 is all about separation, separating the waters above from the 0:30:37.570 --> 0:30:39.330 waters below, the land from the sea. And then you 0:30:39.330 --> 0:30:42.530 get to the garden and it's like, continue that. You've 0:30:42.530 --> 0:30:44.050 got a garden here, which is like a very like 0:30:44.050 --> 0:30:46.330 you've got your separate plants garden now. It's not a 0:30:46.330 --> 0:30:50.570 big mess. This is my garden. And, uh, it's not 0:30:50.570 --> 0:30:52.250 the wilderness, right? So it's the rest of the world 0:30:52.250 --> 0:30:55.050 is presumably wilderness. Then you've got a mission now to 0:30:55.090 --> 0:30:56.570 take that further than Eden. 0:30:57.050 --> 0:31:01.370 Yeah. In Genesis one, the the opening scene. The curtain 0:31:01.370 --> 0:31:05.880 rises on a chaotic ocean, a sea where nothing is 0:31:06.000 --> 0:31:10.320 distinguished from anything else. And that's tapping back into the 0:31:10.320 --> 0:31:14.880 the ancient Mesopotamian mind. I would argue, and then God 0:31:14.880 --> 0:31:18.320 separates the water and causes the land to rise, and 0:31:18.320 --> 0:31:20.520 then does things to the land. So he's pushing back 0:31:20.560 --> 0:31:23.040 the chaos and creating an ordered space. And then he 0:31:23.040 --> 0:31:25.600 plants trees and people there. 0:31:26.200 --> 0:31:31.600 I think also, I'm sorry that maybe it's implicit, but 0:31:31.600 --> 0:31:35.040 maybe I think it's worth mentioning that, uh, obviously God 0:31:35.040 --> 0:31:38.680 was there and, uh, and that he enjoyed it himself. 0:31:39.040 --> 0:31:43.040 The design of it, uh, which was collaborative and, um, 0:31:43.280 --> 0:31:46.640 but that he was central and that it all declared 0:31:46.640 --> 0:31:47.320 his glory. 0:31:47.360 --> 0:31:50.800 Yeah. God was there. Um hmm. So there was a 0:31:51.480 --> 0:31:55.680 what we might call a spiritual dimension. Uh, but back then, 0:31:55.680 --> 0:31:59.160 it doesn't seem that the spiritual. It's easy for us 0:31:59.160 --> 0:32:03.830 to think about, like natural, supernatural, physical, spiritual, then those 0:32:03.830 --> 0:32:06.470 things seem to be much more closely entwined. You have 0:32:06.910 --> 0:32:09.510 God walking with his creations in the cool of the day. 0:32:09.510 --> 0:32:12.950 You have this other spiritual being, the serpent, coming in, 0:32:13.110 --> 0:32:14.990 and they talk and they, you know, it seems to 0:32:14.990 --> 0:32:18.270 be this free exchange which is different than what happens 0:32:18.270 --> 0:32:22.630 after the fall. The the two realms are separated. Okay. 0:32:22.670 --> 0:32:24.350 Last thing, two last two things. 0:32:24.390 --> 0:32:26.270 It may have already been mentioned or part of something else, 0:32:26.270 --> 0:32:28.670 but I think part of the order is that there's 0:32:28.710 --> 0:32:32.190 also communication. So it's not just order of where like 0:32:32.190 --> 0:32:34.710 spatially speaking, but like going back to the three, there's 0:32:34.710 --> 0:32:38.510 a social order of how communication goes between God and 0:32:38.510 --> 0:32:41.150 his creation. And even in Genesis two and the making 0:32:41.150 --> 0:32:43.670 of Eve, the story seems to imply this sort of 0:32:43.670 --> 0:32:47.630 unfolding of truth through communication and finding out what is 0:32:47.630 --> 0:32:50.470 the true and better thing through Adam naming all the animals. 0:32:50.510 --> 0:32:51.870 And then there's yeah. 0:32:52.150 --> 0:32:57.990 Yeah, there's language, communication, a sequence of events, there's development, 0:32:58.740 --> 0:33:02.260 The ancient Greco-Roman mind just thought of eternity as static. 0:33:02.580 --> 0:33:06.100 And then in comes the Hebrew mind, which is we 0:33:06.140 --> 0:33:10.020 are going somewhere. History is array. Okay last comment. 0:33:10.420 --> 0:33:12.739 I really enjoyed the contrast between the two and the 0:33:12.740 --> 0:33:16.540 perspectives on what makes a story. So Genesis one is 0:33:16.540 --> 0:33:18.740 a very tidy story. It has a beginning, it has 0:33:18.740 --> 0:33:22.820 an end, it has progression throughout. And Genesis two jumps 0:33:22.820 --> 0:33:26.060 right into there's people. We don't know where they came from. 0:33:27.220 --> 0:33:30.620 They're here. And there's not really an end per se, 0:33:30.620 --> 0:33:33.140 because it's sort of like it's a mess. Hope it 0:33:33.140 --> 0:33:33.700 works out. 0:33:34.100 --> 0:33:35.820 Um, and then you get the rest of the Bible. 0:33:35.860 --> 0:33:39.860 Yeah. And it's, it's a really good perspective on like, 0:33:40.020 --> 0:33:43.540 even the if somebody views it as a complete set 0:33:43.580 --> 0:33:46.300 to somebody else, it's a story of chaos. 0:33:46.700 --> 0:33:49.740 Yeah. What is the relationship between Genesis one and two? 0:33:51.460 --> 0:33:54.900 I think part of that answer is the Hebrew poetics 0:33:55.060 --> 0:33:59.090 and the way repetition plays and Hebrew poetics. So they 0:33:59.090 --> 0:34:01.969 get to make these contrasting stories, which are very different, 0:34:01.970 --> 0:34:04.610 as you're pointing out. But they they form like two 0:34:04.650 --> 0:34:09.290 sides of an inkblot. They're parallel and similar. Okay. Let's 0:34:09.650 --> 0:34:12.810 thank you for participating. Uh, I have a list of 0:34:12.810 --> 0:34:16.930 11 things which don't exhaust the the answer to the question, 0:34:16.930 --> 0:34:20.410 what does it mean to be human but social, relational, irrational. 0:34:20.450 --> 0:34:23.890 They can use their minds. They're embodied. They're not spirits 0:34:23.890 --> 0:34:27.770 floating around. They have a physical place to live. Spiritual, moral. 0:34:28.330 --> 0:34:32.210 It can cause things to happen. They're limited and they're dependent. 0:34:32.210 --> 0:34:34.890 They have needs. And those needs need to get satisfied. 0:34:35.570 --> 0:34:41.610 They are. They build, they work. They create language and temporal. 0:34:41.810 --> 0:34:45.210 So they exist in time. They do not exist outside 0:34:45.210 --> 0:34:49.170 of time. They experience duration and sequence. Some things happen 0:34:49.170 --> 0:34:54.210 before other things. Well, that was fun. Hopefully that was fun. 0:34:54.320 --> 0:34:58.359 Let's get back to games. Um, Genesis one, two and 0:34:58.360 --> 0:35:04.600 three give a very rich, robust what what the seminarians 0:35:04.600 --> 0:35:07.560 would call anthropology. What does it mean to be a human? 0:35:07.560 --> 0:35:12.000 This is it. Why? Why is everything so good, inescapably 0:35:12.000 --> 0:35:17.520 good and rich and abundant and broken and marred and fallen? 0:35:17.680 --> 0:35:21.960 Genesis one, two and three offer a story about that, 0:35:22.640 --> 0:35:24.680 and that's a story we can use to make sense 0:35:24.680 --> 0:35:28.840 of the world, however, so that that's a snapshot of 0:35:28.840 --> 0:35:31.360 what it means to be human. I would argue that 0:35:31.400 --> 0:35:35.880 in in this side of the worlds, both goodness and brokenness, 0:35:36.520 --> 0:35:41.319 we experience our humanness as something that ebbs and flows 0:35:41.960 --> 0:35:46.120 so it can dwindle. We can be dehumanized. It can 0:35:46.160 --> 0:35:49.440 grow and become richer and stronger and more robust. And 0:35:49.440 --> 0:35:54.509 that happens in each of those Characteristics differently. So you 0:35:54.510 --> 0:35:56.710 can have a work, a job that you go to 0:35:56.710 --> 0:35:59.190 every day and you just sit in a cubicle and 0:35:59.190 --> 0:36:03.750 experience the the humanization of the body that modernity is 0:36:03.750 --> 0:36:07.430 good to good at making. And your mind is completely 0:36:07.430 --> 0:36:10.350 engaged as you click around on your computer and work 0:36:10.350 --> 0:36:12.830 in the digital world. So both of those things happen 0:36:12.830 --> 0:36:15.430 at the same time. So there's kind of a dehumanization 0:36:15.630 --> 0:36:20.910 and a, um, and a moment when your rationality is 0:36:20.910 --> 0:36:25.950 being very engaged. So it's, it's it's a complicated picture. 0:36:25.950 --> 0:36:27.790 What does all this have to do with games? Games 0:36:27.790 --> 0:36:30.189 can do the same thing. They can dehumanize you and 0:36:30.190 --> 0:36:34.150 rehumanize you. I used to play a game called Zombies Run. 0:36:34.670 --> 0:36:36.670 Has anyone played zombies run? 0:36:37.670 --> 0:36:38.270 I think so. 0:36:38.310 --> 0:36:40.270 You should check it out because it is a lot 0:36:40.310 --> 0:36:43.670 of fun. It's a running, it's an exergame. It's a 0:36:43.670 --> 0:36:47.670 running app, and you pop your earbuds in and start 0:36:47.670 --> 0:36:50.590 the game, and it selects your playlist and you listen 0:36:50.590 --> 0:36:53.980 to a song in between songs. Zombies chase you and 0:36:53.980 --> 0:36:56.580 there's a whole narrative. It's pretty good. It's pretty good writing. 0:36:56.580 --> 0:36:58.660 It's a good story. And you can turn on zombie 0:36:58.660 --> 0:37:01.779 sprint mode. Yeah, download it right now. There's no shame 0:37:01.780 --> 0:37:05.780 in the game. If you click Zombie Sprint mode on 0:37:06.100 --> 0:37:09.220 when those zombies come, you got to get moving and 0:37:09.260 --> 0:37:12.020 the sound of the growling gets louder if you're not 0:37:12.020 --> 0:37:14.819 running fast enough. I did it, I did it my 0:37:14.820 --> 0:37:17.580 first time and injured myself because it was so motivating. 0:37:18.860 --> 0:37:21.259 So it is impossible to forget that you have a 0:37:21.260 --> 0:37:24.980 body when you are playing zombies. Run! And for me, 0:37:25.020 --> 0:37:28.980 I've never been much of an outdoor exercise guy. This 0:37:28.980 --> 0:37:31.740 I needed a game to get me out moving my body. 0:37:32.860 --> 0:37:35.420 My wife has this picture of me hunched over a 0:37:35.420 --> 0:37:38.259 computer and it's become this. Like I'm just curled up 0:37:38.260 --> 0:37:40.460 on the floor, hunched over a computer. The picture of 0:37:40.460 --> 0:37:43.420 modern man. And that if I apply no effort to 0:37:43.460 --> 0:37:46.980 my life, that is who I become. Zombies run was 0:37:46.980 --> 0:37:50.570 good for me. It humanized me in a way. Um, 0:37:50.610 --> 0:37:55.130 let's see another example. The University of Chicago Scavenger Hunt 0:37:55.130 --> 0:37:59.770 has a very famous, uh, in game design circles scavenger 0:37:59.810 --> 0:38:03.330 hunt yearly. And people come from all over the place 0:38:03.330 --> 0:38:07.210 and try to get as many of these crazy goals 0:38:07.250 --> 0:38:09.969 knocked out during a fixed period of time as they can. 0:38:09.969 --> 0:38:12.290 And the winning team is the one that gets the 0:38:12.290 --> 0:38:16.450 most points by finding or doing things. And some of 0:38:16.450 --> 0:38:18.450 them are easy to do and find. Some of them 0:38:18.450 --> 0:38:22.450 are like ride an elephant through campus. Get a picture 0:38:22.450 --> 0:38:25.970 of yourself at the North Pole. Create a nuclear reaction. 0:38:26.489 --> 0:38:30.529 And so teams do them and they get points. So 0:38:30.570 --> 0:38:34.969 it's this intense exercising of both the social dimension of 0:38:34.969 --> 0:38:36.969 what it means to be human, and the rational dimension. 0:38:37.570 --> 0:38:39.810 People sit around a dorm room, figure out how can 0:38:39.810 --> 0:38:42.530 we make a nuclear reaction. And that one was done. 0:38:43.090 --> 0:38:44.850 Interesting and terrifyingly enough. 0:38:46.050 --> 0:38:47.440 Is everyone okay after that? 0:38:47.480 --> 0:38:53.760 Yeah. Chicago remains so. Games. Games can rehumanize and dehumanize us. 0:38:57.239 --> 0:39:09.200 I'll check my schedule here. Since this is Hutch, let's 0:39:09.200 --> 0:39:12.160 talk about what Tolkien might have to say about this question. 0:39:13.040 --> 0:39:15.520 The next point is games are not an escape from 0:39:15.520 --> 0:39:17.480 the real, or they don't have to be, but they 0:39:17.480 --> 0:39:22.240 can be an intensification of the real. Tolkien wrote an 0:39:22.560 --> 0:39:25.759 essay called On Fairy-stories, and he lays out a very 0:39:25.760 --> 0:39:29.880 helpful concept that gives us a mirror, an image into 0:39:30.040 --> 0:39:33.080 a glance, into how he thought about his own fantasy. 0:39:33.440 --> 0:39:36.680 And he introduced the primary world and the secondary world. 0:39:36.840 --> 0:39:39.920 So the primary world is our world. The secondary world 0:39:39.920 --> 0:39:44.920 is Lord of the rings, which has a has a 0:39:45.030 --> 0:39:50.110 lot of overlap to our world, uh, but is clearly 0:39:50.110 --> 0:39:54.590 not the same world. And so Tolkien was a fantasist 0:39:54.590 --> 0:39:59.590 in the sense that he promoted escape into the secondary world. 0:39:59.590 --> 0:40:04.029 And a lot of people have found solace there that 0:40:04.030 --> 0:40:07.669 they get to bring back into the primary world. So 0:40:07.670 --> 0:40:10.630 this fantasy and games can get a bad rap here 0:40:10.989 --> 0:40:14.550 if they are painted as only an escape. And often 0:40:14.550 --> 0:40:19.390 fantasy and games can be that I'm just unplugging from 0:40:19.390 --> 0:40:22.310 reality and reading Lord of the rings again, or playing 0:40:22.310 --> 0:40:27.550 World of Warcraft. Um, but the criticism here is that 0:40:28.070 --> 0:40:32.589 we we need to live in a real world, and 0:40:32.590 --> 0:40:38.150 the primary world is not it yet is that distinction. 0:40:38.550 --> 0:40:40.549 Are you tracking with that distinction? So we need to 0:40:40.550 --> 0:40:44.420 live in reality, the primary world that we all know, 0:40:44.460 --> 0:40:46.739 in which we live and move and have our being, 0:40:46.739 --> 0:40:49.940 is not it? Because it is. It is. Our reality 0:40:49.940 --> 0:40:53.700 is already distorted. The primary world is distorted. So Tolkien's 0:40:53.700 --> 0:40:56.980 argument is we can actually go into the secondary world 0:40:56.980 --> 0:41:00.060 and imagine a different way of living. And when you're 0:41:00.060 --> 0:41:03.140 talking about games, you can actually experience a different way 0:41:03.140 --> 0:41:07.500 of living that is untwisted and and from which the 0:41:07.500 --> 0:41:10.140 fall has been pushed back in a way that the 0:41:10.140 --> 0:41:15.060 primary world is distorted, and then you can experience that 0:41:15.060 --> 0:41:17.219 change inside of it and bring something back into the 0:41:17.219 --> 0:41:21.740 primary world. Here's a C.S. Lewis quote. Spells are used 0:41:21.739 --> 0:41:26.060 for breaking enchantments as well as for inducing them. And 0:41:26.060 --> 0:41:28.299 you and I have need of the strongest spell that 0:41:28.300 --> 0:41:31.020 can be found to wake us from the evil enchantment 0:41:31.020 --> 0:41:33.220 of worldliness that has been laid upon us for nearly 0:41:33.219 --> 0:41:37.819 a hundred years. So he's saying that we need benevolent 0:41:37.820 --> 0:41:42.690 distortions of reality because we actually don't live in reality yet. 0:41:42.730 --> 0:41:45.410 We live in a, we live in a a broken 0:41:45.410 --> 0:41:50.930 image and games or or fantasy in this example can 0:41:51.890 --> 0:41:55.450 restore the image in a way that is that you 0:41:55.450 --> 0:42:00.250 can bring back. So I've got a couple examples there. 0:42:00.250 --> 0:42:03.130 I'm going to skip them for the sake of time. 0:42:03.130 --> 0:42:05.489 I think I've made my point there. The paradox. There's 0:42:05.530 --> 0:42:08.370 a paradox of entering the secondary world of the game 0:42:08.370 --> 0:42:12.970 can become a deeper entry into actual reality that heals 0:42:12.969 --> 0:42:17.090 and fixes and accompanies you back to the primary world. 0:42:18.570 --> 0:42:26.890 Next point games as healing masks. There's a phrase I 0:42:26.930 --> 0:42:30.489 came across somewhere beta living. So games can be a 0:42:30.489 --> 0:42:34.610 kind of beta living where you get to try something out, 0:42:34.610 --> 0:42:40.359 you get to experience something. A friend of mine. It's 0:42:40.360 --> 0:42:44.360 a game designer, and he worked in Chicago with kids 0:42:44.360 --> 0:42:47.920 that didn't have a good place to go after school. 0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:52.120 So they'd come to Nick's classroom and he would try 0:42:52.120 --> 0:42:54.359 to entertain them and give them something better than what 0:42:54.360 --> 0:42:57.280 they'd get with that time if they were just let loose. 0:42:58.480 --> 0:43:00.560 So Nick was a game designer, so he made a game, 0:43:01.160 --> 0:43:04.880 and it was a role playing game like Dungeons and Dragons. 0:43:04.880 --> 0:43:09.040 But this was a the theme was basically the movie alien. 0:43:09.520 --> 0:43:11.680 So the kid, there was five kids in his class 0:43:12.239 --> 0:43:14.719 and he was like trying to get them involved in 0:43:14.719 --> 0:43:18.359 this kind of nerdy thing. And four of them were 0:43:18.360 --> 0:43:24.080 really excited. So they all pretended to be astronauts in 0:43:24.080 --> 0:43:28.440 the spaceship in which an alien was loose. It's basically, uh, 0:43:29.400 --> 0:43:32.520 the myth of myth of the Minotaur. So there's a monster. 0:43:32.560 --> 0:43:34.560 You are in a labyrinth. How are you going to 0:43:34.560 --> 0:43:38.509 survive that? So Nick designed a game in which all 0:43:38.550 --> 0:43:41.069 that was turned into game mechanics. But one of the 0:43:41.070 --> 0:43:43.710 kids just he was too cool for school, did not 0:43:43.710 --> 0:43:47.630 like it, but he had to be there. So he 0:43:47.670 --> 0:43:49.670 he would just sit in the corner and heckle them 0:43:50.430 --> 0:43:57.589 and do his best to use all the pressures of that. 0:43:57.590 --> 0:44:00.950 Young children have to break down the experience that they 0:44:00.950 --> 0:44:06.470 were having. And so Nick started to realize that something meta, 0:44:06.510 --> 0:44:09.390 there's a meta thing happening right here. So here are 0:44:09.390 --> 0:44:13.589 four students trapped in a room. One of them is 0:44:13.590 --> 0:44:17.310 trying to destroy the good thing that is happening. And 0:44:17.310 --> 0:44:20.029 so he invited the kid in the corner who is 0:44:20.030 --> 0:44:21.790 trying to break it all down to be the alien. 0:44:22.230 --> 0:44:26.149 And he loved it. And finally he the game kind 0:44:26.150 --> 0:44:27.910 of reached out and grabbed him and say, if this 0:44:27.910 --> 0:44:30.069 is how you want to play, we've got a place 0:44:30.070 --> 0:44:33.910 for you. So it there are all these, you can 0:44:33.950 --> 0:44:36.259 kind of step back and see these five kids. There 0:44:36.300 --> 0:44:40.180 are obviously lots of boundaries and barriers between them that 0:44:40.180 --> 0:44:43.500 four of them could overcome, and one of them could not. He, 0:44:44.020 --> 0:44:47.820 his humanity and the relationship between the five children was 0:44:48.260 --> 0:44:51.460 being was distorted. So the game reached out and made 0:44:51.460 --> 0:44:54.500 a place for him. And inside that he could kind 0:44:54.500 --> 0:44:56.580 of put on. This is the game as a as 0:44:56.580 --> 0:44:58.780 a healing mask. You put on the mask of the game, 0:44:58.780 --> 0:45:02.419 which in this example looked like an alien, and he 0:45:02.420 --> 0:45:05.540 played with the other four kids and then they they experienced, 0:45:05.540 --> 0:45:08.739 much to their surprise, a relationship started to develop and 0:45:08.739 --> 0:45:11.420 the game was over and everybody took off their mask 0:45:11.420 --> 0:45:14.700 and they were friends. So there's this this sense in 0:45:14.700 --> 0:45:19.420 which games can, when you enter the magic circle in 0:45:19.420 --> 0:45:22.580 which different rules apply, you, you, you leave a bit 0:45:22.580 --> 0:45:25.860 of something you're able to you can you leave something 0:45:25.860 --> 0:45:28.460 outside the game and then move into the magic circle 0:45:28.500 --> 0:45:32.020 and certain if a game has been designed? Well, if 0:45:32.020 --> 0:45:37.609 the conditions are right, you can experience something inside that 0:45:37.610 --> 0:45:42.210 is that is very humanizing. So there's another story. I 0:45:42.250 --> 0:45:43.650 said in the beginning that I used to be a 0:45:43.650 --> 0:45:48.010 lab worker. And again, that's just a it's a Christian 0:45:48.010 --> 0:45:51.730 residential study centre. And this one was in England. And 0:45:51.730 --> 0:45:54.130 there's lots of tea. Tea at 11 and 430. So 0:45:54.130 --> 0:45:57.089 everything stops for half an hour. We have tea. And 0:45:57.130 --> 0:46:01.810 a volleyball is a feature of tea time. So I 0:46:01.810 --> 0:46:07.850 was playing volleyball once and had this ridiculously overwrought fall. 0:46:08.570 --> 0:46:11.930 It was a fall that just kept happening somehow. And 0:46:12.130 --> 0:46:15.210 I was kind of going back, looking up lots of momentum, 0:46:15.210 --> 0:46:19.370 and then fell backwards and kept on falling. And 30 0:46:19.370 --> 0:46:23.930 people saw it happen. So that was that was a 0:46:23.969 --> 0:46:27.609 it was happening inside a game. I put on the 0:46:27.610 --> 0:46:30.810 mask of I'm now volleyball player. And in the, in 0:46:30.810 --> 0:46:35.120 the something happened to me inside the game, which destroyed 0:46:35.120 --> 0:46:38.840 all this carefully crafted dignity that I try to conduct 0:46:38.840 --> 0:46:42.400 myself with outside of the game. And I was totally humiliated. 0:46:42.960 --> 0:46:45.520 And I was just getting, you know, everybody was so 0:46:45.520 --> 0:46:48.719 nice about it. They were like, ah, bad luck. Good try. 0:46:48.960 --> 0:46:51.640 It was not bad luck. It was not a good try. 0:46:52.640 --> 0:46:56.320 I was just bad. My my inner badness at volleyball 0:46:56.320 --> 0:47:00.680 was exposed and put on display. But we're all just playing. 0:47:00.719 --> 0:47:02.919 We were all wearing the mask of volleyball and and 0:47:02.920 --> 0:47:05.759 that's what that's what volleyball does to you. Some people 0:47:05.760 --> 0:47:08.719 who came through were really good at it. Some people 0:47:08.719 --> 0:47:11.000 were really not good at it, but it was the 0:47:11.000 --> 0:47:14.239 rules of that game. That particular instance of volleyball are 0:47:14.239 --> 0:47:19.800 very safe. So everybody just embarrasses themselves and and it's okay. 0:47:20.800 --> 0:47:23.320 And I point that out under the heading of games 0:47:23.320 --> 0:47:28.359 as healing masks because healing healing is something you can 0:47:28.360 --> 0:47:30.750 read a book, a self-help book, and try to overcome 0:47:30.750 --> 0:47:33.709 your problems. But healing is most potent when it's something 0:47:33.710 --> 0:47:39.230 that is experienced. So games can facilitate the experience of healing. 0:47:39.870 --> 0:47:43.990 And in reality, when I fell, I was actually embarrassed. 0:47:44.270 --> 0:47:47.510 There was a in the primary world, I was embarrassed. 0:47:47.510 --> 0:47:50.390 My face. My face turned red. But when I stood 0:47:50.390 --> 0:47:52.870 up and everybody was saying, you know, good try. Bad 0:47:52.870 --> 0:47:56.549 luck clapping, laughing, I was still safe. So because the 0:47:56.550 --> 0:47:59.549 game was happening, I was both embarrassed and still safe. 0:48:00.070 --> 0:48:03.629 And that's that's a healing experience. So if you do 0:48:03.630 --> 0:48:07.390 that enough something, you can take something back to the 0:48:07.390 --> 0:48:14.029 primary world. All right. Last do we want to do the. 0:48:16.830 --> 0:48:18.390 I'm going to zoom through this last one so we 0:48:18.390 --> 0:48:23.110 can have time for discussion. Games as mirrors. Many people 0:48:23.110 --> 0:48:28.540 won't play games because just as they intensify aspects of 0:48:28.820 --> 0:48:31.060 good aspects of reality and what it means to be human. 0:48:31.060 --> 0:48:33.980 They also can intensify bad aspects of what it means 0:48:33.980 --> 0:48:37.340 to be human and reality. So we've all got experiences 0:48:37.340 --> 0:48:42.500 about competitiveness turned sour, or anger or loss of perspective 0:48:42.500 --> 0:48:45.779 or cheating. I want to win so bad I'm going 0:48:45.780 --> 0:48:49.100 to cheat to win this game. Now gloating in victory 0:48:49.100 --> 0:48:52.180 or the the the real sting of loss when you 0:48:52.180 --> 0:48:55.900 lose this, you know, made up contest, you're just in 0:48:55.900 --> 0:48:59.420 the magic circle. Nothing here really is real in that sense. 0:48:59.420 --> 0:49:03.420 But it it does hurt or something does go wrong. 0:49:03.420 --> 0:49:06.740 Boasting and people can brag about their performance in games. 0:49:07.100 --> 0:49:14.620 Isolation games can very much intensify isolation that we can 0:49:14.620 --> 0:49:17.980 labor under. So a dehumanizing aspect of our relational, the 0:49:17.980 --> 0:49:20.460 relational dimension of what it means to be human. Put 0:49:20.460 --> 0:49:22.740 in the terms of the rest of the lecture isolation. 0:49:23.780 --> 0:49:27.330 I haven't talked much about video games Because though though 0:49:27.330 --> 0:49:30.130 I love them, that is a very different lecture. Um, 0:49:30.690 --> 0:49:34.210 I think they're much more of a mixed bag when you, 0:49:34.250 --> 0:49:36.650 when you play a video game more likely to be addicting, 0:49:36.650 --> 0:49:39.609 more likely to be isolating, hardcore gamers will have lots 0:49:39.610 --> 0:49:43.530 of examples to shout me down here, but yet I'm 0:49:43.530 --> 0:49:49.210 still right. Uh, cultural idols games can intensify our cultural idols. 0:49:49.210 --> 0:49:53.650 Think of the gladiatorial games. There was this idol. We 0:49:54.090 --> 0:49:58.690 enough greco-romans could be gathered to one place to see 0:49:58.730 --> 0:50:04.170 people hurt each other. Um. Think about the exaltation of 0:50:04.170 --> 0:50:08.489 star athletes in our in our culture. We are already 0:50:08.690 --> 0:50:14.210 salivating for the things, uh, that every culture wants things 0:50:14.210 --> 0:50:18.890 inappropriately and that culture's games offer them those things in 0:50:18.890 --> 0:50:24.770 a predictable and controlled manner. Um, the idols of the heart. Uh, 0:50:24.840 --> 0:50:27.879 There's ramifications for people's identity when games go wrong. I 0:50:27.920 --> 0:50:32.319 am my victory or I am my loss addiction. As 0:50:32.320 --> 0:50:36.120 someone said, people have played more World of Warcraft than 0:50:36.120 --> 0:50:38.080 the amount of time that humans have been alive on 0:50:38.080 --> 0:50:44.120 this Earth. If you log man hours, 6,000,000 hours. And this. 0:50:44.160 --> 0:50:47.080 I found that stat a couple years ago. I'm sure 0:50:47.080 --> 0:50:51.080 it's much more people have let their children starve because 0:50:51.080 --> 0:50:57.319 they wanted to play World of Warcraft. That's that has happened. Uh, 0:50:57.320 --> 0:51:00.080 so there's. Yeah, there's all kinds of reasons not to 0:51:00.120 --> 0:51:05.439 play games. Um, that that is not this lecture, but 0:51:05.440 --> 0:51:08.000 I wanted to just respond to that idea that, well, 0:51:08.000 --> 0:51:11.439 when I play games, everything goes wrong. I get angry. Uh, 0:51:11.440 --> 0:51:14.879 my family has a shouting, a shouting match. What? What 0:51:14.880 --> 0:51:17.400 is good about that? How can that be turned around 0:51:17.440 --> 0:51:22.560 into a good thing? A friend and I recently were 0:51:22.560 --> 0:51:26.230 talking about the movie Cinderella man, Russell Crowe. He's a 0:51:26.230 --> 0:51:31.310 boxer in the in the depression. And his wife at 0:51:31.310 --> 0:51:33.670 one point in the movie, his wife saying like, why 0:51:33.710 --> 0:51:35.790 do you do this? You know, we've got you know, 0:51:35.790 --> 0:51:37.310 we have so much struggle. We're in the middle of 0:51:37.310 --> 0:51:39.069 the depression. Why are you fighting? And he says, at 0:51:39.070 --> 0:51:42.390 least in the ring, I can see what I'm fighting against. 0:51:42.430 --> 0:51:45.509 Whereas he goes home and everybody is suffering under the depression. 0:51:48.230 --> 0:51:50.350 Games can be like that. They can take they can 0:51:50.350 --> 0:51:53.750 take a thing, and then they can very clearly and 0:51:53.750 --> 0:51:56.709 painfully expose to you something that is broken about yourself 0:51:57.150 --> 0:52:01.070 or about reality or about the people who you love. 0:52:01.670 --> 0:52:04.270 And that is that's a reason many people have to 0:52:04.310 --> 0:52:06.509 step away from playing games. I know lots of people 0:52:06.510 --> 0:52:08.549 that just say, I don't like games because I can't 0:52:08.550 --> 0:52:11.549 handle what happens, but I would want to I would 0:52:11.550 --> 0:52:16.750 want to accept that and gently push a bit on that. 0:52:17.430 --> 0:52:21.620 If you have a problem with anger, it's expressing itself 0:52:21.660 --> 0:52:24.259 in your life, whether you know it or not. If 0:52:24.300 --> 0:52:26.860 you play a game and you can't, you're not happy 0:52:26.860 --> 0:52:31.540 with the angry person you become. That's not. There are 0:52:31.540 --> 0:52:34.219 some ways you can consider that experience that cast it 0:52:34.219 --> 0:52:36.660 in the light of an achievement. Something has been achieved here, 0:52:36.780 --> 0:52:39.700 I have this, I have entered this experience and it 0:52:39.700 --> 0:52:43.339 has shown me something true about myself. Some learning that 0:52:43.340 --> 0:52:46.180 I have to do or something about something my community 0:52:46.180 --> 0:52:49.899 can't handle. We can't handle this, the conflict that we're 0:52:49.900 --> 0:52:55.220 experiencing here. So that's just my my apology for even 0:52:55.260 --> 0:52:59.060 though even though games can intensify parts of the fault, you, 0:52:59.100 --> 0:53:01.219 at least when you play a game, you can you 0:53:01.219 --> 0:53:04.580 can see who you're fighting. Fighting against. They make things 0:53:04.580 --> 0:53:09.219 that are difficult to see. Very visible, painfully visible. That's 0:53:09.219 --> 0:53:12.540 all I have to say. Let's have some Q&A. What 0:53:12.540 --> 0:53:15.460 are you thinking about? I've offered a framework and applied 0:53:15.460 --> 0:53:18.580 it to some games, but there's lots more we could say. 0:53:19.930 --> 0:53:23.770 I would be curious to hear maybe. 0:53:23.770 --> 0:53:23.890 The. 0:53:23.890 --> 0:53:24.810 Positive note one. 0:53:24.810 --> 0:53:26.609 But I'm actually more curious about negative one. What did 0:53:26.610 --> 0:53:28.689 you consider and say a board game? Would you be 0:53:28.730 --> 0:53:29.130 to be a. 0:53:29.170 --> 0:53:30.810 Dehumanizing game. 0:53:30.810 --> 0:53:32.450 Mechanic? De-humanizing game. 0:53:32.450 --> 0:53:32.969 Design? 0:53:34.370 --> 0:53:36.730 We talked. So the question is what? What is a 0:53:36.770 --> 0:53:39.850 I had a lot of examples of rehumanizing games. What 0:53:39.850 --> 0:53:43.810 is a dehumanizing game that we were talking about, Cards 0:53:43.810 --> 0:53:47.810 Against Humanity. I think it's dehumanizing. I think it takes 0:53:47.810 --> 0:53:51.370 these things, which should be there's an inherent dignity to 0:53:51.370 --> 0:53:54.810 the human person, and that doesn't mean we can't have 0:53:54.810 --> 0:53:59.009 fun and laugh about things. And actually, that's in my 0:53:59.010 --> 0:54:03.049 closest relationships. If I can achieve a point where I 0:54:03.050 --> 0:54:06.009 can laugh about my quirks and foibles with my friends 0:54:06.010 --> 0:54:09.089 and it's still safe, that's a that's a good thing. 0:54:09.130 --> 0:54:12.050 That's a that's a healthy place. It can be Cards 0:54:12.050 --> 0:54:16.009 Against Humanity. I think it abuses the power of the 0:54:16.010 --> 0:54:22.879 magic circle in such a way that we. Were laughing, 0:54:23.360 --> 0:54:29.319 but it's not safe. I've played it with African American friends, 0:54:29.480 --> 0:54:32.480 and I've been forced to try to make jokes about 0:54:32.480 --> 0:54:39.480 their blackness, and that's really uncomfortable. And I thought when 0:54:39.480 --> 0:54:41.040 that happened, the last time I played, I thought, I 0:54:41.040 --> 0:54:43.319 just can't I just can't play this. I don't know 0:54:43.320 --> 0:54:45.120 how this is going to land with you. You know, 0:54:45.160 --> 0:54:48.160 this is not happening in the context of relationship. This 0:54:48.160 --> 0:54:51.239 is this is something I, I felt that I would use. 0:54:51.440 --> 0:54:54.879 Use the magic circle to perpetrate something against my friends 0:54:55.640 --> 0:54:58.239 and that the game was forcing that. And I didn't 0:54:58.239 --> 0:55:02.600 want to do that. That's an example that comes to mind. 0:55:02.719 --> 0:55:07.120 I'd have to think more about that question. I suppose 0:55:07.120 --> 0:55:10.200 the example of video games that I hinted at a 0:55:10.200 --> 0:55:13.480 little bit more. I have spent so many hundreds of 0:55:13.480 --> 0:55:17.350 hours playing video games Names and they are so fun 0:55:18.230 --> 0:55:20.069 and I probably could have done better things with my 0:55:20.070 --> 0:55:24.070 college experience. That being said, a lot of my friendships 0:55:24.070 --> 0:55:28.070 in college were built around video games. So it's it's complicated. 0:55:28.110 --> 0:55:30.430 I hopefully one of the things that I'm conveying is 0:55:31.070 --> 0:55:33.750 this framework lets you say yes to these things and 0:55:33.750 --> 0:55:36.790 no to those things, and understand why this is. Yes, 0:55:36.790 --> 0:55:39.029 and this is a no. Do you want to push 0:55:39.030 --> 0:55:39.750 back on that at all? 0:55:39.790 --> 0:55:42.430 No, no, I actually I was going to give an 0:55:43.270 --> 0:55:46.390 example that I was thinking of for board games, um, 0:55:47.070 --> 0:55:51.510 like in college, at one point we played Settlers of Catan. 0:55:51.510 --> 0:55:52.830 It was a big thing. It was a lot of fun. 0:55:52.830 --> 0:55:56.549 And at a certain point, though, and this is kind 0:55:56.550 --> 0:55:58.830 of I don't know if this is necessarily a thing 0:55:58.830 --> 0:56:00.469 of a game design or more like you were talking 0:56:00.469 --> 0:56:03.830 about exposing the heart, but there is two friends who 0:56:03.830 --> 0:56:07.469 decided that I was good at the game, which I 0:56:07.469 --> 0:56:09.750 was so-so, but whatever they decided was good against gaming 0:56:09.750 --> 0:56:11.469 and would gang up on me from the very start 0:56:11.469 --> 0:56:15.500 before I had any advantage. And so I. this happened 0:56:15.500 --> 0:56:18.580 twice games and in the second game I decided to make. 0:56:18.620 --> 0:56:22.060 There's four people. The other person thus ruining both of 0:56:22.060 --> 0:56:24.060 those other two games as they decided to ruin mine. 0:56:24.460 --> 0:56:26.460 And we didn't play another game until there was a Catan. 0:56:26.980 --> 0:56:29.779 And so I think it's interesting to me what you 0:56:29.780 --> 0:56:31.779 brought up. Like, I don't know if that's a I've 0:56:31.780 --> 0:56:35.460 heard similar experiences of other people playing this game because 0:56:35.460 --> 0:56:37.420 of the trading. I don't know if that's like a 0:56:37.420 --> 0:56:40.819 feature of it that exposes these hard things, or if 0:56:40.820 --> 0:56:44.140 the mechanics of the game being so cutthroat mean that 0:56:44.140 --> 0:56:46.620 you just kind of naturally gang up on people because 0:56:46.620 --> 0:56:48.180 the game mechanics, I don't know, I was just trying 0:56:48.180 --> 0:56:50.020 to puzzle that one through. 0:56:50.260 --> 0:56:53.220 I do that strategy all the time. Love it. That 0:56:53.219 --> 0:56:57.500 that person's good. Let's stop him. Yeah. Yes, but it 0:56:57.500 --> 0:57:00.860 can be very frustrating. Yeah. I think that's an example 0:57:00.860 --> 0:57:05.419 of how the magic circle is a porous boundary. It's not. 0:57:05.460 --> 0:57:08.020 It's not an iron curtain. You bring who you are 0:57:08.060 --> 0:57:11.540 into the game and you bring dynamics that were in 0:57:11.540 --> 0:57:13.930 play before the game started. Into the game as well. 0:57:15.489 --> 0:57:17.530 I was going to say someone. Somebody did that to 0:57:17.530 --> 0:57:19.650 me inside and it was like my wife. It was 0:57:19.650 --> 0:57:22.410 all my family. And like, I'm the youngest and it's 0:57:22.410 --> 0:57:25.050 my brothers and I'm going to beat them, right? So 0:57:25.090 --> 0:57:27.650 I beat them. I was about to win and my 0:57:27.650 --> 0:57:30.370 wife was like, haha! And made my drew were married 0:57:30.410 --> 0:57:32.490 yet made my sister in law win, who hates playing 0:57:32.490 --> 0:57:35.290 games with us. And I was so mad. And then 0:57:35.290 --> 0:57:38.850 I was like, oh crap like that convicted me because 0:57:38.850 --> 0:57:41.250 I was totally all about beating my brother. That's the 0:57:41.250 --> 0:57:43.250 only reason. Like I was not bringing a good thing 0:57:43.250 --> 0:57:45.330 into the game. It's a really good point. 0:57:45.370 --> 0:57:45.890 Yeah. 0:57:47.330 --> 0:57:49.210 As I do have a question, but I want to 0:57:49.250 --> 0:57:53.330 a Cards Against Humanity report. Um, so the times we 0:57:53.330 --> 0:57:56.130 played it, it's been the exact opposite experience to where. 0:57:56.170 --> 0:57:57.970 So I'm a pastor of a church. A bunch of 0:57:57.970 --> 0:58:00.930 people in our church play it, and our church is 0:58:00.930 --> 0:58:03.210 made up of people who aren't Christians. Like, they're they're 0:58:03.210 --> 0:58:07.050 new and they're a this is awesome. Like, this pastor 0:58:07.050 --> 0:58:09.970 isn't horrible, but you get to things where you go, 0:58:10.160 --> 0:58:12.040 I won't, I can't say this, I won't say it. 0:58:12.320 --> 0:58:15.360 And then it opened up beautiful conversation like, oh, you 0:58:15.360 --> 0:58:18.360 wouldn't say that. This is wrong, man. And like, oh, cool. Like, 0:58:18.400 --> 0:58:21.600 let's talk about that. Uh, so I guess that breaks 0:58:21.600 --> 0:58:24.840 the rule of the game, but it is fun. And 0:58:24.840 --> 0:58:27.360 you get to see like, oh, that's a line for you. Oh, 0:58:27.360 --> 0:58:29.439 but this isn't a line for me. But this one's 0:58:29.440 --> 0:58:31.800 a line for you. It was really interesting to see 0:58:32.120 --> 0:58:35.440 what people's lines were, where, you know, race is pretty 0:58:35.440 --> 0:58:37.480 much everyone's line. But there's some other things like, oh, 0:58:37.520 --> 0:58:39.680 I'm interested that you would joke about that, but you 0:58:39.680 --> 0:58:43.680 wouldn't joke about this one. So with that said, isn't 0:58:43.680 --> 0:58:48.280 it all based on is it relative to perspective and 0:58:48.560 --> 0:58:50.080 audience and people playing? 0:58:50.320 --> 0:58:52.480 Yeah. I wouldn't want to make a blanket condemnation of 0:58:52.480 --> 0:58:55.600 Cards Against Humanity. It's a great game. Uh. 0:58:56.360 --> 0:58:57.560 Once you play it once, it's boring. 0:58:58.200 --> 0:58:59.600 Yeah, I suppose so. 0:58:59.640 --> 0:59:01.200 Only thing that sucks about the game is. 0:59:02.280 --> 0:59:05.640 I've made this joke before. Yeah, yeah. No, it it 0:59:06.000 --> 0:59:09.750 it was only dehumanizing. It would not have been items 0:59:09.750 --> 0:59:13.310 one through five on Amazon's toys and games for so long, people. 0:59:13.510 --> 0:59:17.350 People are having fun and I'm sure there's so many 0:59:17.390 --> 0:59:20.070 thousands of stories just like that. One of good and 0:59:20.070 --> 0:59:23.310 beneficial conversations that have come about as a result of 0:59:24.030 --> 0:59:29.510 dealing with these unspeakable things. And I think knowing the 0:59:29.510 --> 0:59:33.230 creators of that game, that is one of the things 0:59:33.230 --> 0:59:35.910 that they think that is a gift that has been 0:59:35.910 --> 0:59:38.670 built into the game, that there's all these things we 0:59:38.670 --> 0:59:41.070 can't talk about unless you play this game and you 0:59:41.070 --> 0:59:43.550 will talk about them, which is not bad. That can 0:59:43.550 --> 0:59:48.270 be quite good. It isn't automatically good, but it certainly 0:59:48.270 --> 0:59:51.710 can be. Sorry, you're next after that. 0:59:52.870 --> 0:59:55.430 Um, so I was curious to hear your thoughts about 0:59:55.710 --> 0:59:58.470 as I was thinking through, it was just really great thoughts. 0:59:58.470 --> 1:00:01.670 So thank you. I love the the organization of kind 1:00:01.670 --> 1:00:04.030 of logic behind all these different things. So I'm thinking 1:00:04.030 --> 1:00:06.540 about a lot of the Genesis one through three focus 1:00:06.540 --> 1:00:09.700 as sort of this, because I'm starting to see that 1:00:09.740 --> 1:00:11.980 if I can summarize the argument, it's less of what 1:00:11.980 --> 1:00:14.420 is a Christian gain, but okay, the existence of an 1:00:14.420 --> 1:00:17.420 idea of a game like this magic circle is inherently 1:00:17.420 --> 1:00:19.780 Christian because it goes back to the Christian God and 1:00:19.780 --> 1:00:23.380 how the world came to be, and this kind of thing. So, um, 1:00:23.580 --> 1:00:26.140 what's interesting to me to press into, though, is that 1:00:26.140 --> 1:00:30.620 it seems like you have, uh, Genesis two, like development, 1:00:30.860 --> 1:00:33.420 like there's a I wouldn't even necessarily say a problem 1:00:33.420 --> 1:00:35.660 because I'll use that as another word. But like, you know, 1:00:35.980 --> 1:00:38.100 Adam's looking for a helpmate, and you see the story 1:00:38.100 --> 1:00:40.660 of how that develops. Right? But he's not exiled for 1:00:40.660 --> 1:00:42.260 not being able to find that helpmate on his own. 1:00:42.300 --> 1:00:46.460 God helps him. Genesis three there's a problem, and the 1:00:46.580 --> 1:00:49.580 wrong solution is chosen, as it were, in this consequences. 1:00:50.220 --> 1:00:54.020 But then even beyond that, to a certain degree, you 1:00:54.020 --> 1:00:58.620 get to enable there's competition and there's additional sort of 1:00:58.660 --> 1:01:04.970 boundary and consequences that come from that. So development, problem solving, competition. 1:01:04.970 --> 1:01:07.130 How do you see those things as it relates to 1:01:07.330 --> 1:01:10.570 like what makes a game have sort of a Christian value? 1:01:10.770 --> 1:01:12.170 Because it seems like there's a way to have all 1:01:12.210 --> 1:01:13.930 those three things in a Christian game. But it seems 1:01:13.930 --> 1:01:16.290 like as it develops in the first chapters of Genesis, 1:01:16.850 --> 1:01:20.210 there's kind of an increasing sinfulness. Yeah, but I'm just 1:01:20.210 --> 1:01:21.810 wondering what you think about that. 1:01:21.850 --> 1:01:26.050 Yeah. I don't fully understand your question. So I'm going 1:01:26.090 --> 1:01:28.050 to say something and you can tell me if I 1:01:28.090 --> 1:01:29.290 am headed in the right direction. 1:01:29.410 --> 1:01:31.570 Good at asking questions that don't make sense. 1:01:31.930 --> 1:01:37.970 Aren't we all? Um, so you're asking, like given given 1:01:37.970 --> 1:01:42.410 how the fall can express itself in many different ways, 1:01:42.410 --> 1:01:48.290 like competition. You have Cain and Abel, murderous competition. What? 1:01:48.850 --> 1:01:52.770 What gives a game Christian value or redemptive value, if 1:01:53.010 --> 1:01:58.570 it also consists of things that are ways that the 1:01:58.570 --> 1:02:01.450 fall can express themselves, like competition? Yeah. 1:02:02.170 --> 1:02:03.880 I think Yeah, maybe that's a better way to put it, 1:02:03.880 --> 1:02:06.240 is because I don't think either of us would say 1:02:06.280 --> 1:02:08.760 competition is inherently sinful and bad for a lot. Anything 1:02:08.760 --> 1:02:10.360 that has to do with that. Otherwise, we wouldn't be 1:02:10.360 --> 1:02:11.200 talking about games. 1:02:11.240 --> 1:02:14.640 Otherwise the Olympics wouldn't be sinful, right? 1:02:14.800 --> 1:02:17.440 So, but I do see a relationship between development all 1:02:17.440 --> 1:02:19.480 the way to competition. So how do you where do 1:02:19.480 --> 1:02:22.840 you wrestle along that spectrum when it comes to games? 1:02:23.040 --> 1:02:28.800 How they deal with that, that tension of, you know, 1:02:29.280 --> 1:02:31.520 I'm not I don't think playing a game where someone's 1:02:31.520 --> 1:02:34.680 life should be ended based on how they do. 1:02:34.720 --> 1:02:34.959 Squid. 1:02:34.960 --> 1:02:36.560 Game development, right? That's not a great. 1:02:36.600 --> 1:02:38.680 Yeah, we can say no one should do Squid Game. 1:02:38.840 --> 1:02:41.000 There you go. Yeah, there we go. So yeah, that's 1:02:41.320 --> 1:02:43.920 that's what I'm asking. Help us see maybe that spectrum 1:02:43.920 --> 1:02:46.280 and where what are some, like, waypoints along the way 1:02:46.280 --> 1:02:47.680 that might show us. Oh, we might be getting too 1:02:47.680 --> 1:02:50.680 far into this game. It's really just about competition. And 1:02:50.680 --> 1:02:53.080 that's not a very good thing to. Well, maybe it's 1:02:53.080 --> 1:02:55.520 just development and there's no problem solving. So just because 1:02:55.520 --> 1:02:58.440 Noah's Ark, isn't it? But there's no consequences for what 1:02:58.440 --> 1:03:00.720 I do. This is just a bad game. Does that make. 1:03:01.150 --> 1:03:05.870 Sense? I think so. I think getting into this question, 1:03:07.390 --> 1:03:10.630 I structured the framework as I did so that it 1:03:10.630 --> 1:03:13.990 would have a goal that what is a Christian game? 1:03:13.990 --> 1:03:15.950 It is a game that makes us more human in 1:03:15.950 --> 1:03:18.990 a reality that's more real. And both of those God 1:03:18.990 --> 1:03:21.670 is a hidden player in how we define those things. 1:03:22.630 --> 1:03:24.830 So I think it was Solzhenitsyn that said that the 1:03:24.830 --> 1:03:27.710 line between good and evil doesn't run through, you know, 1:03:27.750 --> 1:03:29.990 your good and your bad, but actually straight through the 1:03:29.990 --> 1:03:33.470 middle of everything. So there can be good competitiveness and 1:03:33.470 --> 1:03:38.350 evil competitiveness. So what I'm trying to do here is 1:03:38.350 --> 1:03:43.030 offer a framework that we can assess a game or 1:03:43.110 --> 1:03:45.310 a feature of a game, or a moment that you're 1:03:45.310 --> 1:03:49.190 having inside a game with a more complex chart, a 1:03:49.190 --> 1:03:53.870 more complex path to that goal of being more human. Obviously, 1:03:53.910 --> 1:03:57.310 Cain and Abel, what Cain did to Abel was very dehumanizing. 1:03:57.710 --> 1:04:03.900 It was competitive. and he murdered his brother. That's dehumanizing. And. 1:04:03.940 --> 1:04:09.939 And he accepted terms of unreality and and and then 1:04:09.940 --> 1:04:14.020 made those terms real so that in, in this framework 1:04:14.060 --> 1:04:16.420 that would say we'd be able to say, no, that's bad. 1:04:17.220 --> 1:04:22.220 But competitiveness itself remains untainted by that because there is 1:04:22.220 --> 1:04:25.820 a good competitiveness. I've said that, and I'm still not 1:04:25.820 --> 1:04:29.180 sure I've answered your question. You're using the word development. 1:04:30.940 --> 1:04:32.700 We can leave it there or you can push back. 1:04:34.100 --> 1:04:36.380 Well, I feel like I'm taking up a lot of time. 1:04:36.660 --> 1:04:39.180 I think I think what I'm trying to maybe figure out, 1:04:39.180 --> 1:04:42.340 and you're helping me nail down into the question is, um, 1:04:42.980 --> 1:04:47.419 is where what is the genesis of healthy competition? Because 1:04:47.420 --> 1:04:50.020 I think it's there, but I'm trying to find it 1:04:50.020 --> 1:04:53.220 as I work through development, problem solving, competition, if that 1:04:53.220 --> 1:04:56.460 makes sense. I'm trying to find it in, in in 1:04:56.500 --> 1:04:59.570 these frameworks that you've drawn. Drawn out here, I think 1:04:59.570 --> 1:05:03.650 it's there. I just I'm, I'm struggling to have to 1:05:03.890 --> 1:05:04.450 think through that. 1:05:05.050 --> 1:05:07.330 Yeah. Well we can you can leave. It is a 1:05:07.330 --> 1:05:10.490 really long conference, so we can just keep talking. We've 1:05:10.490 --> 1:05:11.610 got a couple days left. 1:05:11.610 --> 1:05:12.130 That's right. 1:05:12.450 --> 1:05:13.890 Okay. I'm gonna go over here. 1:05:13.930 --> 1:05:14.370 Yes. 1:05:14.570 --> 1:05:15.090 Um. 1:05:15.730 --> 1:05:17.410 I have a question about video games, so I wanted 1:05:17.410 --> 1:05:20.490 to first acknowledge their mixed bag. I totally get that. Um, 1:05:20.490 --> 1:05:22.450 but I was curious if you had any examples of 1:05:22.450 --> 1:05:27.330 where a video game that you've seen has made, uh, 1:05:27.450 --> 1:05:30.730 something more human and a reality that isn't the reality 1:05:30.770 --> 1:05:34.370 where it's been humanizing either for you or for, you know, 1:05:34.410 --> 1:05:35.730 it could be a personal thing. It could be a 1:05:35.730 --> 1:05:38.770 game that is dehumanizing to other people. But do you expect. 1:05:39.250 --> 1:05:45.130 But as long as I win, I'm feeling good. Video games. Well, again, 1:05:45.130 --> 1:05:48.690 I guess the, um, what it means to be human 1:05:48.690 --> 1:05:52.850 is is very complicated and diverse, and video games can 1:05:52.850 --> 1:05:57.160 humanize just using the terms that I've set out, humanize 1:05:57.160 --> 1:06:01.160 one aspect and dehumanize another aspect. Like when you're talking 1:06:01.200 --> 1:06:03.520 and this is maybe dating myself, but missed the game. 1:06:03.520 --> 1:06:07.560 Missed comes to mind. Puzzle. Puzzle solving. I loved it. 1:06:08.280 --> 1:06:11.120 Not a surprise given what I would go on later 1:06:11.120 --> 1:06:14.000 to do. And even that the game we're playing at 1:06:14.000 --> 1:06:20.120 the conference, solving puzzles, that is. It's so good for 1:06:20.120 --> 1:06:23.280 your brain and it's so fun and really hard ones 1:06:23.280 --> 1:06:26.720 that take, you know, hundreds of people to solve. I 1:06:26.720 --> 1:06:33.080 think they're so good for being human. Um, video games 1:06:33.080 --> 1:06:37.920 are so rough on many other aspects of humanity. Let 1:06:37.920 --> 1:06:43.360 me think. Smartphones have given us have blurred the question 1:06:43.400 --> 1:06:46.080 a bit, because you don't have to sit in front 1:06:46.080 --> 1:06:48.640 of a TV with a controller anymore. You can go 1:06:48.640 --> 1:06:51.000 out and go for a run and listen to zombies 1:06:51.000 --> 1:06:53.830 try to chase you, or you can play Pokemon Go 1:06:55.150 --> 1:06:58.470 with lots of other people, and the game makes you 1:06:58.470 --> 1:07:01.550 go to certain places and meet the people and play 1:07:01.550 --> 1:07:04.830 with them. And it happens all overlaid on the fabric 1:07:04.830 --> 1:07:08.270 of a neighborhood, and you find the game strengthens something. 1:07:08.270 --> 1:07:11.390 The neighborhood needs to be strong. So that's a maybe 1:07:11.390 --> 1:07:12.390 that's an example. 1:07:13.390 --> 1:07:15.510 Andy, can I offer something to that question? 1:07:15.550 --> 1:07:15.950 Yeah. 1:07:16.190 --> 1:07:21.070 Um, I play a lot of weird indie video games. Um, 1:07:21.070 --> 1:07:25.510 and I have found that there's a lot of indie 1:07:25.510 --> 1:07:32.790 games can offer humanizing experiences, um, especially when they have 1:07:32.790 --> 1:07:36.550 the puzzle solving. There's games like, um, braid is the 1:07:36.830 --> 1:07:43.510 the classic in the beautiful and super hard. Yes. It's beautiful. Yeah. Um, 1:07:43.510 --> 1:07:48.750 braid or Fez. Um, but games that, um, that have these, 1:07:48.790 --> 1:07:51.820 these that have puzzle solving and encourage, encouraged. You know, 1:07:51.860 --> 1:07:54.340 he felt this in mind, but also have good things 1:07:54.340 --> 1:07:57.180 to say, not necessarily in a didactic way, but you 1:07:57.220 --> 1:08:01.980 walk away and you're thinking about it and thinking about, okay, 1:08:02.020 --> 1:08:06.020 so this might take away from this game is making 1:08:06.020 --> 1:08:08.780 me think through what it means to be more human 1:08:08.780 --> 1:08:15.820 in this reality. Um, especially games that are beautiful aesthetically 1:08:15.820 --> 1:08:20.260 as well, like games that are, again, Braid or Fez, 1:08:20.380 --> 1:08:27.700 games that are artistic or creative encourage you to create. Yeah. Um, 1:08:27.860 --> 1:08:32.420 within their particular magic circle. Um, I would throw that 1:08:32.420 --> 1:08:35.820 out as examples of video games that humanize. Yeah. 1:08:35.860 --> 1:08:39.900 Or that dragon cancer. If you've come across that game, a, uh, 1:08:39.939 --> 1:08:45.100 a father made a game conveying the experience of experiencing 1:08:45.100 --> 1:08:47.820 his one year old son die of cancer. So in 1:08:47.820 --> 1:08:50.729 in the game, he kind of took that experience and 1:08:50.729 --> 1:08:55.130 expressed it in a video game in a way that's beautiful, 1:08:55.130 --> 1:08:57.370 but also very difficult. 1:08:58.370 --> 1:09:01.170 I have a few perspectives to add to that too. 1:09:01.250 --> 1:09:03.330 That's okay. And then I also have a question for you. 1:09:03.370 --> 1:09:06.530 Yeah. So I am involved in a group called Love 1:09:06.530 --> 1:09:08.650 by Nerd. And like one of their big things is 1:09:08.650 --> 1:09:12.210 like community building. Like they have like they're building up 1:09:12.210 --> 1:09:16.809 community thing, things like Destiny and Halo and like, among us. 1:09:16.850 --> 1:09:20.129 There was a group that was getting together regularly for that. Um, 1:09:20.530 --> 1:09:24.490 you know, I one of the. So there, you know, 1:09:24.530 --> 1:09:26.729 or like, you can play you know, you're listing off 1:09:26.729 --> 1:09:29.010 indie games and puzzle solving, but there's a lot of 1:09:29.010 --> 1:09:31.250 things where it's like, okay, you can look at some 1:09:31.290 --> 1:09:35.330 of the like Triple-A games like Mass Effect and like 1:09:35.370 --> 1:09:38.570 thinking through all the choices. And, you know, there's a 1:09:38.570 --> 1:09:41.370 lot of complex moral decisions that you're making through the 1:09:41.370 --> 1:09:43.849 storytelling that in some ways I think are, you know, 1:09:44.490 --> 1:09:47.370 it's similar to like my comparison is I don't watch TV. 1:09:47.370 --> 1:09:51.679 I play video games, you know? So, um, one thing, 1:09:51.720 --> 1:09:53.920 like one framework that I'm like, I literally heard this 1:09:53.920 --> 1:09:56.160 a month ago, so I'm still thinking about it. It's 1:09:56.160 --> 1:10:00.000 still very fresh in my mind. Um, but in for 1:10:00.040 --> 1:10:03.240 like in some in a field unrelated to recovery, someone 1:10:03.240 --> 1:10:07.599 was talking or unrelated to gaming, um, about recovery, someone 1:10:07.600 --> 1:10:11.960 was talking about the difference between self-care and coping. Self-care 1:10:11.960 --> 1:10:14.920 tends to be life giving actually helps you build connection 1:10:14.920 --> 1:10:18.559 with people, helps you come back feeling refreshed. Coping tends 1:10:18.560 --> 1:10:22.040 to be much more of a self selfish, inward, that 1:10:22.040 --> 1:10:24.160 sort of thing. And so I think that's probably for 1:10:24.160 --> 1:10:28.599 video games. Honestly, any single video game can be great 1:10:28.600 --> 1:10:31.800 for one person and terribly addictive for a different person. 1:10:31.840 --> 1:10:36.839 Like I think like probably 85% of video games fall within, like, 1:10:37.479 --> 1:10:40.240 you know, anyone, you know, it's going to be like that. 1:10:40.240 --> 1:10:43.200 And so it's really is this giving you life? Is 1:10:43.200 --> 1:10:47.950 this helping you be prepared for interactions with people. You 1:10:47.950 --> 1:10:50.830 know that you interact like people that you actually see. 1:10:50.870 --> 1:10:53.990 Not that. Or are you like, are you the college 1:10:53.990 --> 1:10:56.590 student who's failing because you're spending all of your time 1:10:56.590 --> 1:10:59.870 in World of Warcraft? You know, I think that's probably 1:10:59.870 --> 1:11:05.510 the differentiator. Um, so again, self care versus coping is 1:11:05.510 --> 1:11:08.990 something that I tend to, you know, I'm wrestling with. Okay. 1:11:09.030 --> 1:11:11.110 How much am I falling into more of the coping 1:11:11.150 --> 1:11:14.110 side with my own video game habits. Um, so I 1:11:14.110 --> 1:11:18.509 think those were my perspectives on that. Um, or are you. 1:11:18.550 --> 1:11:20.269 Or are you, like, for me, if I can interrupt 1:11:20.270 --> 1:11:22.710 you for a second? Lisa. Um. It's okay. We know 1:11:22.710 --> 1:11:26.790 each other, but, um, like or, you know, to your 1:11:26.790 --> 1:11:31.030 own point. Um, are you forming relationships with people in 1:11:31.030 --> 1:11:33.950 World of Warcraft that have a good influence on your 1:11:33.950 --> 1:11:36.950 life and make you a better person and therefore, you know, 1:11:36.990 --> 1:11:38.269 humanizing you? Yeah. Okay. 1:11:38.870 --> 1:11:41.790 Yeah. I mean, so it's it's about finding the balance 1:11:42.110 --> 1:11:45.580 because I'm very much an online community. It's definitely still community, 1:11:45.860 --> 1:11:47.660 but you can't do it for like, you can't lose 1:11:47.660 --> 1:11:51.540 your job over that sort of thing. Um, so the do. 1:11:51.540 --> 1:11:53.179 You have a question? And then there was one other 1:11:53.180 --> 1:11:55.820 question here. And we're going to move toward wrapping up, 1:11:56.340 --> 1:11:58.460 because it's hot in this room and we're there's more 1:11:58.979 --> 1:11:59.540 to be had. 1:12:00.060 --> 1:12:03.460 Um, the question that I had was, um, how like 1:12:03.500 --> 1:12:06.580 not being familiar with the games that you've actually designed. Like, 1:12:06.620 --> 1:12:08.660 can you kind of talk through, like how some of 1:12:08.660 --> 1:12:11.380 this has ended, like this framework has influenced your own 1:12:11.380 --> 1:12:12.140 game design? 1:12:12.180 --> 1:12:15.939 Sure. Um, yeah. So how how has this framework influenced 1:12:15.939 --> 1:12:19.900 my own game design? Um, I. So, like I said, 1:12:19.900 --> 1:12:22.580 I had a game business in Chicago, and people would, 1:12:22.580 --> 1:12:25.620 companies would hire me to make something of their Christmas 1:12:25.620 --> 1:12:30.420 party or their, you know, social team building outing thing. Uh, 1:12:30.420 --> 1:12:34.340 so I was limited by that. All the games that 1:12:34.340 --> 1:12:36.380 I've made came out of that and then out of 1:12:36.380 --> 1:12:40.540 experiences at La Brea. So just people, I had people 1:12:40.979 --> 1:12:45.050 in rooms instead of on screens or on on the internet. 1:12:46.010 --> 1:12:49.450 So yeah, all of this came in. It was all 1:12:49.450 --> 1:12:51.929 in play when I was making games for them. So 1:12:51.970 --> 1:12:55.770 thinking about can I is it okay as a Christian? 1:12:56.490 --> 1:13:00.090 Can I make people lie to each other? Is that okay? 1:13:00.130 --> 1:13:03.210 How do I think about that? So the magic circle 1:13:03.250 --> 1:13:07.090 helps with that, that actually in the game the symbols change. 1:13:07.490 --> 1:13:09.490 And so we can lie to each other and we're 1:13:09.490 --> 1:13:12.330 still safe. We can step out and tell one another 1:13:12.330 --> 1:13:15.170 the truth. And then having an idea of what it 1:13:15.170 --> 1:13:19.410 means to be a human. Because like I said earlier, 1:13:19.770 --> 1:13:22.290 I had a real power over people I could make. 1:13:22.490 --> 1:13:25.610 I could humiliate people, make them humiliate each other. So 1:13:25.610 --> 1:13:28.090 there was some guardrails there about, oh, this is what 1:13:28.090 --> 1:13:33.050 it means to be human. And sadly, the companies that 1:13:33.050 --> 1:13:36.169 paid me the most to take control of their vent 1:13:36.450 --> 1:13:40.840 were also companies that paid a lot to have open 1:13:40.840 --> 1:13:43.719 bars at their event. So I would know, like, okay, 1:13:43.720 --> 1:13:46.520 these people are going to be drunk and I'm going 1:13:46.640 --> 1:13:49.679 to that's the raw material I have to work with 1:13:49.720 --> 1:13:53.559 and I can how do I create, keep them safe 1:13:54.360 --> 1:13:57.960 and also not encourage them to do things that they 1:13:57.960 --> 1:14:01.400 would not that they will be uncomfortable with later on. 1:14:02.040 --> 1:14:05.640 So yeah, it was all it was in the background, um, 1:14:06.000 --> 1:14:09.880 in the design process, mostly around the boundaries. And then 1:14:09.880 --> 1:14:12.840 at the end of the day, as a criteria for 1:14:12.840 --> 1:14:15.519 whether or not how I feel about the game that 1:14:15.520 --> 1:14:17.960 I've made for people and the experience that they've had, 1:14:18.640 --> 1:14:23.519 even if they're upset at me or laughing, laughing with 1:14:23.520 --> 1:14:26.000 their friends and talking about how how great a time 1:14:26.000 --> 1:14:31.639 they had. Does that answer your question? Yeah. Keeping people 1:14:31.640 --> 1:14:35.559 safe was that was a big part of it. My 1:14:35.560 --> 1:14:39.030 thesis was how to make safe, pervasive games from a 1:14:39.030 --> 1:14:42.990 Christian perspective because people go crazy when they play games. 1:14:43.550 --> 1:14:45.990 I was thinking about, so I was hiding all those 1:14:46.510 --> 1:14:50.470 puzzles at this conference, and it brought me back to 1:14:50.510 --> 1:14:55.269 my Chicago days because I, I experienced firsthand how intense 1:14:55.270 --> 1:14:58.790 people can get, and I didn't. All those puzzles, the 1:14:58.790 --> 1:15:02.190 hiding places are so lame because I didn't want you 1:15:02.710 --> 1:15:06.830 to realize, oh, they're hidden in things and then take 1:15:06.830 --> 1:15:10.189 everything apart because some of you would do that. So 1:15:10.189 --> 1:15:14.429 I just taped them to the wall. So thinking through 1:15:14.550 --> 1:15:18.470 how what are people like and, and how powerful is 1:15:18.470 --> 1:15:20.110 a game and what are they like in, in the 1:15:20.110 --> 1:15:22.950 games and trying to keep them safe. Okay. What you 1:15:22.950 --> 1:15:24.710 had one and then we're going to be done. 1:15:25.350 --> 1:15:28.070 Uh, I was in the conversation ebbed and flowed, and 1:15:28.070 --> 1:15:29.950 I didn't pay attention to all the details. So I'm 1:15:29.950 --> 1:15:33.549 sorry if this is already said. Um, one of the very, 1:15:33.550 --> 1:15:37.820 very positive things that we have experienced with online gameplay 1:15:37.820 --> 1:15:42.460 is the real humanizing of and validation of people that 1:15:42.460 --> 1:15:45.740 don't always get it in real life. Mhm. Um, and 1:15:45.740 --> 1:15:48.940 because it doesn't have to be co-located, it can happen 1:15:48.979 --> 1:15:53.420 in an exceptionally safe way, um, where that person doesn't 1:15:53.420 --> 1:15:56.300 necessarily need to see us or interact with us the 1:15:56.300 --> 1:15:59.780 next day. So if they work out something online that 1:15:59.780 --> 1:16:03.259 they're embarrassed about, they know that we're still there for them. 1:16:03.660 --> 1:16:05.580 Days later, when they're ready to come back. 1:16:07.500 --> 1:16:11.540 Yeah. I yeah, all that is fair game. Uh, video 1:16:11.540 --> 1:16:16.059 games can be very humanizing. And I think some of 1:16:16.100 --> 1:16:18.660 the things you're, I'm just trying to think through your 1:16:18.700 --> 1:16:21.900 example on the framework, through the lens of the framework 1:16:21.900 --> 1:16:26.780 that I've laid out. Um, there is a, a dehumanization 1:16:26.780 --> 1:16:30.820 that people might labour under in the primary world that 1:16:30.820 --> 1:16:33.059 they can be free of in the secondary world. And 1:16:33.060 --> 1:16:36.130 that's actually part of the goodness and beauty of that 1:16:36.130 --> 1:16:41.650 digital community. Eliot T.S. Eliot said humankind cannot bear very 1:16:41.650 --> 1:16:46.650 much reality. Which is such a wonderful thought. And so 1:16:46.650 --> 1:16:50.929 there is a there is a reduction of reality. It's 1:16:50.930 --> 1:16:56.009 thinner online in many ways. Even, like if I'm friends 1:16:56.010 --> 1:16:58.970 with you. But I've never met you. That's a reduction 1:16:58.970 --> 1:17:02.010 of what friendship is. And in in its most robust form. 1:17:02.250 --> 1:17:04.890 But sometimes that can be a doorway into a deeper 1:17:04.890 --> 1:17:09.490 humanization because humankind cannot bear very much reality. Actually, reality 1:17:09.490 --> 1:17:10.889 being what it is, if we were in the same room, 1:17:10.890 --> 1:17:13.929 we probably wouldn't like each other or something. But we 1:17:13.930 --> 1:17:16.210 met online, and we built something online that we can 1:17:16.210 --> 1:17:19.330 bring into the same room. Yeah. Oh, that is fair game. 1:17:21.250 --> 1:17:23.929 I see people moving in the hall, so we're going 1:17:23.930 --> 1:17:27.090 to draw a dotted line here. Thank you very much everybody.