WEBVTT - Amy Baik Lee Has a Homeward Ache (from the Archives) 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:06.120 I think I write out of freedom now. Instead of 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.720 an ambition to earn something, knowing that it is something 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:12.600 that he's commissioned me to do, almost. That gives me 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:16.599 a different sense from me trying to earn validity through 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:20.080 the eyes of others, or through a bestseller list, or, um, 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:23.400 or others praise in some way. Linking it with the 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:27.920 Homeward Ache, I think, has helped me realize that writing 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:30.800 is also something that is not going to end with death. 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:33.479 All of these things that I might have a a 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:37.640 wistfulness about not being able to finish well, there is 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:42.120 an eternity coming where that creation mandate doesn't go away. 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:47.960 Welcome to the habit podcast conversations with writers about writing. 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:51.279 I'm Jonathan Rogers, your host, and this is an episode 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:55.520 from The Habit archives. Amy Beckley has written that in 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:57.880 every place her life has taken her from the Blue 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:01.000 Ridge Mountains of her early childhood to the teeming streets 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:04.280 of Seoul, Korea, to the old wood paneled libraries of 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:06.960 the University of Virginia, to the Rocky Mountains, where she 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:10.120 now lives. And now I'm quoting her. There have always 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:12.720 been hints of beauty and great knocks of mercy that 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:16.040 have called me from beyond my surroundings, always speaking of 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:19.760 a king and friend and father whose presence is truly home. 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:23.520 That sense of longing, those clues that maybe we were 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:26.839 made for a different world, make their way out in everything. 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.840 Amy writes, and especially in her book, That Homeward Ache 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:33.600 How Our yearning for the Life to come spurs on 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:37.000 our life today. In this episode, Amy and I talk 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:41.000 about homeward longing, the idea of Zen, and the importance 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:46.640 of writing in community. Amy Beckley, I'm so glad to 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:49.840 have you back on The Habit podcast. I'm really excited 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:54.640 about your new book, This Homeward Ache. Um, and I'm 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.320 looking forward to talking to you about the book and 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:01.040 about this whole idea of the homeward Ache and Sehnsucht. 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:02.320 If I'm saying that word right. 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.120 Yeah. Thank you for having me on. I'm so excited 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:07.320 to be talking about it on this podcast, because I 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:09.880 think there are a lot of listeners who will know 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:11.200 and resonate with that long. 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:15.400 Yeah, a lot of, uh, like minded people. Yeah. So 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:20.079 tell me about your history with Homeward Longing or Homeward Ache. 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:25.119 Mhm. Um, well, as far back as I can remember, 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:29.040 I think one of the first instances, um, encounters I 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.320 had really with that longing, um, one of them involves 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:35.000 a meadow that I lived near when I was nine 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:39.320 years old. And I remember, um, walking up the hill 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:43.080 and seeing, I mean, it was, you know, kind of 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:45.440 probably just one of the many meadows that you can 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:48.320 see dotted all over the Blue Ridge Mountains. And, um, 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:52.919 but there was something about the quality of being there 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:55.000 and what I was seeing and the atmosphere that I 0:02:55.000 --> 0:03:00.359 was in that cut me to the heart. Really? And, um. 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:05.560 And so, years later, uh, when I ran across C.S. 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:11.760 Lewis's description of Zane and of, um, his own encounters 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:15.560 with that kind of longing, that's the memory that surfaced 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:19.919 for me. Mhm. Um, and so I still look back 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:23.840 on that first experience as being probably one of the 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:29.760 most impactful ones. Um, yeah. 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:33.600 Yeah. Um, and I guess we, we kind of jumped 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.600 right in. Maybe we should have, uh, backed up. Maybe 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:41.640 we can back up now. Um, what you're calling homeward ache, uh, 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:46.560 or or homeward longing. Lewis called. Well, Lewis didn't invent 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.680 that word, of course, but. But he used the word Sehnsucht. 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:53.360 I always have trouble pronouncing that word, but, um. Um. 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:59.040 And so, um, so the meadow was your connection to 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:02.680 your your first memory of of that kind of, um, 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:07.040 that longing, that that ache that is better than the 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:09.120 relief from the ache. 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:11.360 Yes. Yeah. 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:16.040 Um, do you have a definition of of at the 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:17.000 tip of your tongue here? 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:20.640 Well, I've heard it described as, um, a longing for 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:23.840 a place that you can't return to, a longing for 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:27.480 a place that you may have never even been to. Um. 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:30.800 And I like that. I think, um, Louis only uses 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:35.040 the word xainza, which he took from German romanticism. Um, 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:38.520 I think it's only used once in surprised by Joy. 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:40.640 But he also, he calls it by other names like 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:44.159 Inconsolable Longing. And, um, it's for me, it was really 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:46.240 in his stories that I got the sense of what 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:49.839 he was trying to get at and what he was describing. Um, 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:55.160 but that's, I think generally the, definition that's given for. 0:04:55.200 --> 0:05:01.400 Yeah. Yeah. Um, what's the the argument from desire. So-called 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.680 argument from desire from, uh, I guess mere Christianity where 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:07.680 where Lewis says, you know, all our desires point to 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:10.440 something that something that fulfill, you know, you're thirsty because 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:12.120 there's such thing as water and you're hungry because there's 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:15.760 such thing as food, right? And if you long for 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:19.559 something that that isn't on Earth, maybe that means you're 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:21.839 made for something besides Earth, right? 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:22.640 Exactly. 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:23.279 Yeah. 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:23.680 Yeah. 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:27.119 And it is interesting the way, uh. And you've already 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.360 touched on this for you. It was this meadow which 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:32.039 was like, there are probably a dozen other meadows like 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.280 that that you've seen in your life that didn't have 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:38.480 the same effect on you. Mhm. That didn't feel like 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:41.960 this little, this little, you know, tear in the, in 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:45.800 the veil that, that pointed you to eternity. Um, and 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:47.440 when I talked to people, when I hear people talk 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:54.280 about their experiences of this Aik. Um, it's not because 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.000 I mean, even even with Louis, it's, you know, a 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.320 flowering currant bush, which he makes no claim is the 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:01.320 greatest flowering currant bush in the history of the world. 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:03.880 It's just the one that happened to to have an 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:08.600 effect on him and that little, you know, moss garden 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:12.000 in a in a biscuit tin. Right. Again, nothing all 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:15.039 that special. Yeah. But for some reason it it made 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:18.000 him long for something, um, something bigger. 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:23.160 Yeah. Yeah. It's like something that comes and greets you 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:27.680 instead of, um, something being. I mean, I know that 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:30.040 there's an argument to be made for thin places, and 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:31.800 I think there are special places where a lot of 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:35.480 people can encounter that longing in that particular spot. But 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.599 I guess one of the major premises that my book 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:41.400 is running on is that it's not something that we 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:45.160 conjure up, um, even by visiting a special site. It's 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:49.200 something that comes and meets us often when we are 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:50.320 not looking for it. 0:06:50.390 --> 0:06:55.990 Yeah, yeah. Um, goodness, truth and beauty. Um, when it 0:06:55.990 --> 0:06:58.469 comes to goodness, when it comes to to truth, both 0:06:58.470 --> 0:07:00.830 of those things that those are things that we pursue. 0:07:01.670 --> 0:07:05.710 But beauty is something that you you almost don't have any. 0:07:05.990 --> 0:07:08.550 You know, it it feels like grace because it comes 0:07:08.550 --> 0:07:13.350 to you on sort. Yeah. And it's and certainly you 0:07:13.350 --> 0:07:15.950 can seek you can seek beauty. But some of the 0:07:15.950 --> 0:07:19.390 most memorable moments of an encounter with beauty are times that, 0:07:19.390 --> 0:07:20.550 that you weren't looking for it. 0:07:20.790 --> 0:07:23.550 Yes, I would agree. Yeah. 0:07:24.470 --> 0:07:28.470 Um, okay. Well, you you say in your introduction there 0:07:28.470 --> 0:07:32.350 are lots of books and articles about Zen. Mhm. Um, 0:07:33.070 --> 0:07:35.870 and you say you're taking a different approach. What's different 0:07:35.870 --> 0:07:41.309 about your approach? Um, from other other books and, and 0:07:41.310 --> 0:07:43.670 thinkers uh, on this subject? 0:07:43.710 --> 0:07:47.830 Yeah. Um, I would say the way that it's different 0:07:47.870 --> 0:07:52.550 is it's Is almost exclusively, um, narrative nonfiction essays that 0:07:52.550 --> 0:07:55.710 are drawn from personal stories and I. It was a 0:07:55.710 --> 0:07:58.190 lane that I predefined for myself, and so I had 0:07:58.190 --> 0:08:01.590 to keep within those, uh, lines as I was writing 0:08:01.590 --> 0:08:04.790 the manuscript. Um, and I was very tempted to step 0:08:04.790 --> 0:08:08.270 outside of them sometimes, but it doesn't, um, I wanted, 0:08:08.950 --> 0:08:12.630 I wanted a book to tell a personal story because, 0:08:12.670 --> 0:08:15.590 I mean, on at the most basic level, it was 0:08:15.590 --> 0:08:17.790 because this is the only story I have to tell. 0:08:18.630 --> 0:08:26.429 And it I had felt that in reading books about 0:08:26.430 --> 0:08:30.070 this longing before, um, that the thing that I most 0:08:30.070 --> 0:08:32.589 longed for was to hear from somebody else who had 0:08:32.630 --> 0:08:36.270 experienced it and not just hear about their experience, but 0:08:36.309 --> 0:08:39.030 hear how they were living with it, you know, and 0:08:39.030 --> 0:08:41.470 that they hadn't just dismissed it or pushed it under 0:08:41.470 --> 0:08:45.670 the rug. And so this book definitely doesn't have, um, 0:08:45.950 --> 0:08:50.550 there's no statistics, um, or historical surveys. I'm not looking 0:08:50.550 --> 0:08:53.470 at a cultural group. It's not a Bible study. Um, 0:08:53.510 --> 0:08:57.390 it really is just, uh, the story of an ordinary life. 0:08:57.390 --> 0:08:59.110 Learning to live with that longing. 0:08:59.429 --> 0:09:02.709 Yeah. All right. We've talked about the meadow. Um, what 0:09:02.710 --> 0:09:07.589 are the other ways that this homeward ache has made 0:09:07.590 --> 0:09:10.230 a difference in, in your life? Or have you have 0:09:10.270 --> 0:09:15.590 experienced it? How has it changed the way you parent or, uh, 0:09:15.590 --> 0:09:19.430 or live in community with friends or go to church or. 0:09:19.910 --> 0:09:24.910 Yeah. Yeah, that's I would say that's the whole story 0:09:24.910 --> 0:09:27.310 of part two. That's what all the essays are trying 0:09:27.309 --> 0:09:30.630 to describe that effect. Um, I would say it was 0:09:30.630 --> 0:09:35.790 the journey of walking through and exploring what the ache was, 0:09:35.790 --> 0:09:38.189 where it came from, why it was significant, and why 0:09:38.190 --> 0:09:41.110 it wasn't just, uh, a trail of breadcrumbs that was 0:09:41.110 --> 0:09:43.150 meant to lead me to the truth of Christ as 0:09:43.150 --> 0:09:48.390 Savior and be discarded with. Um, but something about that 0:09:48.390 --> 0:09:54.870 journey itself was transformative. And I think there's a quality 0:09:54.870 --> 0:10:01.670 to the inconsolable longing, to homeward longing that can teach 0:10:01.670 --> 0:10:05.310 you to have clearer eyes for eternity and for the 0:10:05.309 --> 0:10:13.510 kingdom of God here in a way that, um. A 0:10:13.510 --> 0:10:16.790 lot of other cerebral exercises can't, I think and I 0:10:16.790 --> 0:10:19.310 think that's why, um, I think that's why some of 0:10:19.309 --> 0:10:22.470 these interviews are actually difficult for me to do because, um, 0:10:23.110 --> 0:10:27.390 Lewis talked about, um, that he felt almost bashful talking 0:10:27.390 --> 0:10:30.550 about it, that he, he, you know, he was very 0:10:30.550 --> 0:10:34.709 conscious of treading on tender ground as he was broaching 0:10:34.710 --> 0:10:38.270 this subject for his readers, because it's such a tender thing. 0:10:38.309 --> 0:10:41.150 It's a personal experience. And if you've had it, if 0:10:41.190 --> 0:10:47.470 you if you remember your encounters with it. Um, those 0:10:47.470 --> 0:10:50.350 are things that we hold very close in our hearts, 0:10:50.350 --> 0:10:53.390 I think, and that are very dear to us. And, um, 0:10:53.429 --> 0:10:56.110 but to take that attitude and to take that stance 0:10:56.110 --> 0:10:58.949 to living and to look at parenting, to look at 0:10:58.950 --> 0:11:02.070 writing all of these things, um, I guess that is 0:11:02.070 --> 0:11:04.030 what I wanted to look at. And so I guess 0:11:04.030 --> 0:11:06.950 I'm basically saying I tried to answer that in part two, 0:11:07.630 --> 0:11:08.830 or at least begin to. 0:11:09.190 --> 0:11:12.950 Yeah, yeah, you should. Um, I'm sure you have more 0:11:12.950 --> 0:11:16.510 of these interviews coming up. You should ask your interlocutors 0:11:16.510 --> 0:11:19.390 to tell their stories of when they experienced how they've experienced. 0:11:19.670 --> 0:11:22.829 Yeah, I would love to hear that. That's been one 0:11:22.830 --> 0:11:24.150 of the best parts. Yes. 0:11:25.590 --> 0:11:28.429 Um, you say that this the this homeward ache is 0:11:28.429 --> 0:11:33.070 an ache that's worth carrying. Um. Why why is it 0:11:33.070 --> 0:11:37.470 worth carrying? Because one way to handle it is to 0:11:37.510 --> 0:11:43.190 ignore it and to be embarrassed that you're. That you 0:11:43.190 --> 0:11:46.750 were so sentimental or or whatever. 0:11:47.350 --> 0:11:50.110 Oh, sentimental is such a good word, because that was 0:11:50.110 --> 0:11:52.670 one of my prayers that I, as I was writing 0:11:52.670 --> 0:11:55.790 this book, I was praying, I think, continually that, um, 0:11:56.070 --> 0:12:00.390 I wouldn't fall off the edge into sentimentalism or that 0:12:00.390 --> 0:12:03.030 it would strike. It's bound to strike somebody out there 0:12:03.030 --> 0:12:07.670 as that anyway. But, um, I think the ache is 0:12:07.670 --> 0:12:13.030 worth carrying because of what it does when you when 0:12:13.030 --> 0:12:20.750 you hold it, you're holding an open stance to. Receiving 0:12:20.750 --> 0:12:25.990 more instances of it, of, um, of being in a 0:12:25.990 --> 0:12:29.550 vulnerable place and to walk through life with that kind 0:12:29.550 --> 0:12:35.630 of vulnerability, um, I think gives us a better foundation 0:12:35.630 --> 0:12:38.150 from which to love. Really? 0:12:38.830 --> 0:12:39.190 Yeah. 0:12:39.630 --> 0:12:40.150 Yeah. 0:12:42.190 --> 0:12:47.630 Um, and it's, it feels like, though it's also an 0:12:47.630 --> 0:12:51.470 ache that that contains a promise. Right? You you feel 0:12:51.470 --> 0:12:54.630 this ache because there's something, you know, it's not just 0:12:54.630 --> 0:12:57.030 your imagination that there's something or it's not just wishful 0:12:57.030 --> 0:13:01.590 thinking that there's that there's more to this world than 0:13:01.590 --> 0:13:02.270 meets the eye. 0:13:02.590 --> 0:13:03.070 Yeah. 0:13:03.350 --> 0:13:10.230 Um, and, um, and they're here and they're in in 0:13:10.230 --> 0:13:15.390 your book, you you talk about re-enchantment. Um, don't you 0:13:15.429 --> 0:13:16.069 have that right? 0:13:16.110 --> 0:13:19.469 I do, yes. The attitude of wonder. Yeah. 0:13:19.510 --> 0:13:21.309 I just had a moment of, you know, I read 0:13:21.309 --> 0:13:23.110 another book. This this. I was reading a different book 0:13:23.110 --> 0:13:24.710 this morning. I was afraid I was it was getting 0:13:24.710 --> 0:13:30.949 it wrong. Uh, yeah. Um, but the. Well, we can 0:13:30.950 --> 0:13:32.750 call it. We can call it Re-enchantment. You can also 0:13:32.750 --> 0:13:37.110 call it disenchantment because the world enchants us to. Yes, 0:13:37.150 --> 0:13:40.070 the status quo enchants us and says this is the 0:13:40.070 --> 0:13:42.070 only world there is. And it's like the, you know, 0:13:42.110 --> 0:13:46.230 the silver chair, the the, uh, the green, the green lady, 0:13:46.429 --> 0:13:49.630 you know, saying, this is all. This is all there is. 0:13:49.670 --> 0:13:52.990 And for 23 hours. Yeah. Um, Prince William believes it. 0:13:52.990 --> 0:13:54.870 And then for one hour, he knows it's not true. 0:13:55.150 --> 0:13:55.630 Yeah. 0:13:56.870 --> 0:14:07.910 Um. The. Okay. Um. I want to I want to 0:14:07.910 --> 0:14:12.589 read a a moment that I, that I love from 0:14:12.590 --> 0:14:15.630 your book. I guess the polite thing would be to 0:14:15.630 --> 0:14:16.790 let you read it, but I've got it right here 0:14:16.790 --> 0:14:17.830 in front of me, so I'm going to read it 0:14:17.830 --> 0:14:18.390 my own self. 0:14:18.550 --> 0:14:18.870 Go right. 0:14:18.870 --> 0:14:19.230 Ahead. 0:14:19.230 --> 0:14:22.190 You say one day soon our longing will heal in 0:14:22.190 --> 0:14:24.590 the most curious way, and we will find that it 0:14:24.590 --> 0:14:27.350 was not a wound that marred our earthly existence, but 0:14:27.350 --> 0:14:30.030 a cleft through which the fullness of our coming joy shone. 0:14:31.950 --> 0:14:33.830 I love it. Do you have any more to say 0:14:33.830 --> 0:14:34.470 about that? 0:14:37.670 --> 0:14:40.110 Just how gracious of God that that is true. I 0:14:40.110 --> 0:14:42.310 think that's absolutely linked to what you were saying just 0:14:42.310 --> 0:14:44.590 now about the ache being linked to a promise. 0:14:45.030 --> 0:14:45.390 Yeah. 0:14:45.510 --> 0:14:51.070 Uh. And how. What a depressing thing it would be 0:14:51.070 --> 0:14:53.230 if it weren't linked to a promise to have an 0:14:53.230 --> 0:14:57.190 ache that was just terminal. Um, and I think that's 0:14:57.190 --> 0:15:00.030 part of the reason why I wrote the book, especially 0:15:00.030 --> 0:15:02.430 part one, because there are people who feel the ache 0:15:02.430 --> 0:15:05.230 but don't know where it's coming from. Don't dare to 0:15:05.270 --> 0:15:07.470 think that. And they don't dare to think that it's 0:15:07.470 --> 0:15:11.950 tied to something that could be coming. Um, we were 0:15:12.390 --> 0:15:15.470 we were actually at Disney World, um, earlier this year. 0:15:15.470 --> 0:15:17.350 It was a trip that we had saved for for 0:15:17.350 --> 0:15:21.070 a long time. But, um, I think maybe having had 0:15:21.070 --> 0:15:25.830 all of those years of anticipation, I was really odd 0:15:25.870 --> 0:15:28.950 to be there, in a way. Um, I was trying 0:15:28.990 --> 0:15:31.510 I was standing there trying to understand why, you know, 0:15:31.790 --> 0:15:35.190 some believers I know love going to Disney World. They 0:15:35.190 --> 0:15:37.030 make a habit of it. Um, and then we were 0:15:37.030 --> 0:15:39.390 there also to just the best part of it for 0:15:39.390 --> 0:15:41.390 me was watching our kids, seeing it through the eyes 0:15:41.390 --> 0:15:43.870 of our kids. And you get this sense of wonder 0:15:43.870 --> 0:15:49.030 and joy and marveling at things. But, um, it was 0:15:49.030 --> 0:15:52.750 just a it was almost a surreal experience of you're 0:15:52.750 --> 0:15:56.430 in this utopia where people are actively trying to host 0:15:56.430 --> 0:16:00.270 this experience for you and draw you into a world 0:16:00.270 --> 0:16:03.110 where you don't have to worry about daily things for 0:16:03.110 --> 0:16:05.270 a while. And, um, and you're part of the magic 0:16:05.270 --> 0:16:07.550 and you're part of a story that, you know, hundreds 0:16:07.550 --> 0:16:11.070 of other people around you are familiar with. Um, but 0:16:11.110 --> 0:16:13.190 it was just a little bit jarring for me because 0:16:13.190 --> 0:16:20.670 I remember thinking like, what if? In some ways, maybe 0:16:20.670 --> 0:16:22.630 this is the closest that some people are going to 0:16:22.670 --> 0:16:25.590 ever get to the experience of the New Jerusalem. And 0:16:25.590 --> 0:16:30.270 so something about that thought and holding it together with 0:16:30.350 --> 0:16:35.270 the reality of God's promises, I haven't exactly, you know, 0:16:35.310 --> 0:16:41.110 spun out all of the definition and the meaning of that. 0:16:41.110 --> 0:16:43.950 But I just remember trying to hold both those truths 0:16:43.950 --> 0:16:47.910 and finding it sad but also hopeful at the same time, 0:16:47.910 --> 0:16:50.790 because the fact that we have an appetite to be 0:16:50.790 --> 0:16:53.910 a part of such a story and such a world, um, 0:16:54.070 --> 0:16:57.510 or such worlds, I think, signals that we definitely have 0:16:57.510 --> 0:17:00.990 that longing in all of us. Anyway, it was really long. Yeah, 0:17:01.230 --> 0:17:01.990 that makes sense. 0:17:02.190 --> 0:17:02.790 Um. 0:17:03.670 --> 0:17:05.830 I'll tell you what. What I love about Disney World. 0:17:05.869 --> 0:17:09.510 I've been once, uh, as an adult, I was just 0:17:09.510 --> 0:17:14.389 so amazed at how much the people who made the 0:17:14.390 --> 0:17:16.990 place seem to love what they were doing, and. And 0:17:16.990 --> 0:17:22.190 that in itself is meaningful. Um, and, um, I mean, 0:17:22.230 --> 0:17:26.110 even even the, um, you know, when you're waiting in 0:17:26.109 --> 0:17:28.669 line for the roller coaster about the Himalaya, you know, 0:17:28.670 --> 0:17:33.660 the Himalayan monster, the Yeti thing, there's this museum of 0:17:33.700 --> 0:17:36.900 of Yeti culture that's completely made up while you're waiting 0:17:36.900 --> 0:17:40.859 in line and those kind of details. Um, and that 0:17:40.859 --> 0:17:47.540 kind of hospitality, um, really, um, made me. I was 0:17:47.540 --> 0:17:49.659 so impressed. But we are off the we are off 0:17:49.660 --> 0:17:51.780 the subject. I don't know how that relates to the 0:17:51.780 --> 0:17:54.940 new heavens and the new earth. Um, but I'm looking 0:17:54.940 --> 0:17:56.699 forward to your next book in which you sort all 0:17:56.700 --> 0:17:57.220 this out. 0:17:58.180 --> 0:17:59.060 Sounds great. 0:18:00.619 --> 0:18:05.979 Uh, let's talk about George MacDonald. Uh, who, uh, also, uh, 0:18:05.980 --> 0:18:08.140 doesn't play as big a role as C.S. Lewis in 0:18:08.140 --> 0:18:11.260 your book, but he plays a he plays a role. Um, 0:18:12.340 --> 0:18:16.020 and you quote him on the wise imagination. 0:18:16.340 --> 0:18:16.820 Mhm. 0:18:17.980 --> 0:18:21.580 And I love this, uh, I love this insight, which 0:18:21.580 --> 0:18:24.020 now I don't remember if you're quoting MacDonald or if 0:18:24.020 --> 0:18:26.980 you're just paraphrasing, but it's not the things that we 0:18:26.980 --> 0:18:32.260 see most clearly that influence us most powerfully. Um, Um, yes. 0:18:32.540 --> 0:18:37.500 And I don't that that feels like a really important insight. 0:18:38.340 --> 0:18:41.700 And then I don't know what the next step in 0:18:41.859 --> 0:18:45.340 making sense of that is, you know, in other words, 0:18:45.660 --> 0:18:47.740 if the things if it's not the things we understand 0:18:47.740 --> 0:18:52.860 most clearly that influence us most powerfully, do we then 0:18:52.859 --> 0:18:56.580 stop trying to understand things clearly? Um, I mean, and 0:18:56.580 --> 0:18:59.379 I'm kind of asking when I was as I was 0:18:59.380 --> 0:19:01.260 composing this question, my first thing was, what are the 0:19:01.580 --> 0:19:05.500 what are the practical applications of. Well, that's that's not 0:19:05.540 --> 0:19:07.900 in the spirit of the observation that to go looking 0:19:07.900 --> 0:19:13.860 for practical applications to, to this very impractical but true observation. 0:19:14.500 --> 0:19:19.220 Yeah. So you're asking what the implications are for us. 0:19:20.020 --> 0:19:22.659 Yeah. Or what does this have to do with, um, 0:19:23.900 --> 0:19:26.700 the idea that that it's not the things we understand 0:19:26.700 --> 0:19:29.340 most clearly that impact us most powerfully. 0:19:29.580 --> 0:19:30.139 Um, Mhm. 0:19:31.100 --> 0:19:35.219 Our influence is most powerfully. How does that does that 0:19:36.220 --> 0:19:42.020 change anything about the way we think about writing storytelling? Um. 0:19:42.420 --> 0:19:43.380 I think so. 0:19:43.900 --> 0:19:47.500 Yeah. Um, well, he's saying that it's not the things 0:19:47.500 --> 0:19:51.740 we see most clearly. Right. Um, that influence us most powerfully. 0:19:51.740 --> 0:19:56.139 And so, um, I think as writers, as people who 0:19:56.140 --> 0:19:59.700 are trying to tell the stories that we're living, um, 0:20:01.380 --> 0:20:03.100 it I think it reminds us that the essence of 0:20:03.100 --> 0:20:05.260 what we're trying to convey in writing is never the 0:20:05.260 --> 0:20:08.619 static image itself. So as good as we can get 0:20:08.619 --> 0:20:11.660 at describing our surroundings or doing all those writerly things 0:20:11.700 --> 0:20:14.820 like keeping notebooks with details and using our five senses 0:20:14.820 --> 0:20:17.540 and all of that, that's important. But ultimately, when you 0:20:17.580 --> 0:20:21.179 are trying to convey something, be it through a essay 0:20:21.180 --> 0:20:27.500 or story or poem or whatever, um, we're trying to 0:20:27.540 --> 0:20:31.660 convey something that is at the core of our experience, 0:20:32.580 --> 0:20:35.380 and those are things that are informed by things that 0:20:35.380 --> 0:20:38.540 are not seen, like the the things that we have felt, 0:20:38.540 --> 0:20:40.300 the things that we have lived through, the grief and 0:20:40.300 --> 0:20:44.900 the sorrow, the lament, the joy, um, the underlying truths 0:20:44.900 --> 0:20:47.260 that we believe to be at work in the world, 0:20:47.820 --> 0:20:51.179 all of those things. I mean, it's really a marvel 0:20:51.180 --> 0:20:55.500 that when you read a book, you you can parse it, 0:20:55.500 --> 0:21:00.420 but you're not just reading simple details. You're actually taking 0:21:00.420 --> 0:21:03.020 in a whole way of looking at the world. Right? 0:21:03.060 --> 0:21:08.020 So I think when we consider how we're influenced and 0:21:08.020 --> 0:21:12.140 what we're taking in, um, it is absolutely a lot 0:21:12.140 --> 0:21:17.620 of unseen, the unseen things that color our experience, that 0:21:17.619 --> 0:21:19.859 inform it, that form the basis of most of it. 0:21:20.140 --> 0:21:20.660 Um hmm. 0:21:20.859 --> 0:21:23.859 Did I misquote MacDonald when I said the things that, 0:21:24.220 --> 0:21:27.380 uh oh, I did misquote him. I've seen some things 0:21:27.380 --> 0:21:29.540 we don't understand. Yeah, things. 0:21:31.100 --> 0:21:32.740 But I think that could be true too. 0:21:32.859 --> 0:21:35.780 Yeah. The things that we don't always comprehend. 0:21:35.980 --> 0:21:36.660 Yeah. 0:21:36.780 --> 0:21:39.020 So sometimes we have to work it out on paper too. 0:21:39.140 --> 0:21:41.179 Sometimes we don't get to the end of figuring it out. 0:21:41.580 --> 0:21:42.139 Mhm. 0:21:42.540 --> 0:21:43.020 Yeah. 0:21:43.260 --> 0:21:50.700 Um. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then you know, McDonald's formulation 0:21:51.140 --> 0:21:55.340 in the same, you know, on the same page I think. Um, 0:21:55.380 --> 0:21:58.620 speaking of the outward world as a passing vision of 0:21:58.619 --> 0:22:00.100 the persistent. True. 0:22:00.740 --> 0:22:01.380 Yeah. 0:22:01.700 --> 0:22:07.780 Um, and that, that confidence that that which is ultimately 0:22:07.780 --> 0:22:13.540 true and persistently true, um, makes itself known in the 0:22:14.060 --> 0:22:16.900 in the the visible world. 0:22:17.380 --> 0:22:17.900 Yeah. 0:22:17.940 --> 0:22:22.940 Not perhaps completely. You know, we don't know those things 0:22:22.940 --> 0:22:27.739 completely through the visible world. Um, Um, but, um. But 0:22:27.740 --> 0:22:30.580 I love that language. A passing vision of the persistent. True. 0:22:30.740 --> 0:22:31.540 I do too. 0:22:32.619 --> 0:22:36.220 And a truth, as you said. Uh, in your in 0:22:36.220 --> 0:22:40.820 your book, in that essay. It's that's not something we're 0:22:40.820 --> 0:22:44.179 conjuring up in our, in our brains. The persistent true 0:22:44.180 --> 0:22:46.380 is is not something we made. 0:22:46.660 --> 0:22:47.180 Yes. 0:22:47.180 --> 0:22:47.460 Um. 0:22:48.820 --> 0:22:49.220 Yes. 0:22:49.220 --> 0:22:51.940 That turns it all into an adventure, doesn't it? A 0:22:52.820 --> 0:22:53.820 juggling act. 0:22:54.780 --> 0:22:59.780 Yeah. That's good. Okay. I want to spend a little 0:22:59.780 --> 0:23:03.820 time talking about your chapter on writing, because a lot 0:23:03.820 --> 0:23:06.660 of people listen to this podcast are writers, and you 0:23:06.660 --> 0:23:12.980 have some great, um, great insights. Uh, there in that chapter, um, 0:23:13.580 --> 0:23:17.340 you talk about the idea that as when you're in 0:23:17.340 --> 0:23:20.060 graduate school and you the way you grew as a writer, 0:23:20.060 --> 0:23:24.700 there was not by getting more eloquent, but by Getting 0:23:24.980 --> 0:23:28.619 better at thinking clearly. And I think it's really important 0:23:28.619 --> 0:23:32.020 for writers to get out of the mindset that what 0:23:32.020 --> 0:23:36.180 we're looking for is better words, or that we're looking 0:23:36.180 --> 0:23:39.940 for words first. We're not looking for words first. We're 0:23:39.940 --> 0:23:43.979 looking to see and to understand and to, um, as 0:23:43.980 --> 0:23:47.179 you said, to think. To think clearly. Yeah. Um, and 0:23:47.180 --> 0:23:48.939 by the way, I'm glad to know that you got 0:23:48.940 --> 0:23:51.620 better at writing in an in an English graduate program. 0:23:51.619 --> 0:23:52.660 Not everybody does. 0:23:53.540 --> 0:23:54.940 I have to, yes. 0:23:57.940 --> 0:24:06.300 Um, so. Yeah. Thinking, thinking clearly. Um, um, understanding. Having 0:24:06.300 --> 0:24:09.660 a vision of the world that you can then put 0:24:09.660 --> 0:24:12.140 into words. And obviously we need skills at putting things 0:24:12.140 --> 0:24:15.180 into words. Um, and I don't think you were Pooh 0:24:15.180 --> 0:24:17.899 poohing that, that skill, but I think it's really helpful 0:24:17.900 --> 0:24:21.740 to put that skill where it belongs, which is not a, 0:24:21.980 --> 0:24:25.220 you know, and I and as the ultimate goal of 0:24:25.220 --> 0:24:27.500 a writer, which is a strange thing to say. 0:24:28.220 --> 0:24:32.700 It is, isn't it? Um, yeah. I don't know that 0:24:32.700 --> 0:24:35.379 I ever had the dream of being an eloquent writer 0:24:35.380 --> 0:24:39.020 in grad school. You know, a lot of it was survival. Um, 0:24:39.260 --> 0:24:42.700 and finding your place in the academy or figuring out, uh, 0:24:42.700 --> 0:24:44.820 so much of. When I look back on college now, 0:24:44.820 --> 0:24:46.619 I realize that so much of it was learning the 0:24:46.619 --> 0:24:49.340 language of the different subjects that I was in. 0:24:49.540 --> 0:24:50.020 Yeah. 0:24:50.060 --> 0:24:54.580 So when it came to English and going to grad school. Yeah. The, um, 0:24:54.940 --> 0:24:57.060 the thing that I really gained from that time was 0:24:57.060 --> 0:25:00.740 how to think and realizing that good writing a lot 0:25:00.780 --> 0:25:03.980 of times comes down not to the individual words and 0:25:03.980 --> 0:25:07.100 their patchwork, but the ideas and the framework of the 0:25:07.100 --> 0:25:09.699 ideas and how you're organizing them and pacing them and 0:25:09.700 --> 0:25:14.100 presenting them. And, um, it's, you know, especially when you're 0:25:14.100 --> 0:25:17.300 writing papers and you're trying to make a persuasive argument, 0:25:17.300 --> 0:25:20.740 it's almost more important that you are a clear communicator 0:25:20.780 --> 0:25:23.899 than that you are impressing the socks off of whoever's reading. 0:25:23.940 --> 0:25:27.020 You know your advisor. There may be nobody else but 0:25:28.420 --> 0:25:32.460 whoever's reading your thesis or dissertation. Um, and I, I'm 0:25:32.460 --> 0:25:35.620 really grateful for that time. I knew that I. That 0:25:35.619 --> 0:25:38.500 was kind of my test testing ground for whether or 0:25:38.500 --> 0:25:41.820 not I wanted to go on, um, to a PhD program. 0:25:41.820 --> 0:25:44.900 But I'm even having stopped at the Ma level, I'm 0:25:44.900 --> 0:25:47.540 really grateful that that's the education that I got. 0:25:47.580 --> 0:25:53.300 Yeah. Well, our, our, um, uh, the way we learn 0:25:53.300 --> 0:25:55.220 how to write in an academic setting, which is where 0:25:55.220 --> 0:25:58.940 we all pretty much learn how to write. Yeah. The the, um, 0:25:59.820 --> 0:26:02.180 the carrots and sticks are arranged in such a way 0:26:02.180 --> 0:26:06.580 that that I'm always writing for myself for what I 0:26:06.580 --> 0:26:08.500 can get out of this experience, whether you know, what 0:26:08.500 --> 0:26:11.060 I can gain, whether that's being moved on to the 0:26:11.060 --> 0:26:17.660 next grade or getting a promotion or, you know, impressing somebody, um, 0:26:17.900 --> 0:26:20.459 it's really hard to learn to think in terms of 0:26:20.460 --> 0:26:23.659 loving your reader. Write in an academic setting and then 0:26:23.660 --> 0:26:25.580 when you get out of academic setting, there's not much 0:26:25.580 --> 0:26:29.420 else that matters than how I can serve. Serve readers 0:26:29.420 --> 0:26:33.060 and introduce them to things that are important to me. 0:26:33.980 --> 0:26:38.740 Mhm. Yeah. I would say though, that in grad school 0:26:38.980 --> 0:26:42.620 I learned some of the act of hospitality you. 0:26:42.619 --> 0:26:42.979 Did. 0:26:43.420 --> 0:26:45.780 Of writing, but that was more even, that was more 0:26:45.780 --> 0:26:47.860 for am I getting my point across so that I 0:26:47.859 --> 0:26:51.100 can get what I need to out of this assignment? 0:26:51.100 --> 0:26:54.540 The actual learning to love the reader, including the readers 0:26:54.540 --> 0:26:56.659 of this book, I think, came quite a bit later 0:26:56.660 --> 0:27:00.540 for me. Um, because there's also a difference between, um, 0:27:00.580 --> 0:27:05.460 hospitality for the sake of being received. Well, um, and hospitality, 0:27:05.580 --> 0:27:09.859 because you are investing in the life of somebody that 0:27:09.859 --> 0:27:12.940 you may have never even met. But. Yeah, um, but 0:27:12.980 --> 0:27:15.179 whom you want to encourage or who you want to 0:27:15.220 --> 0:27:16.459 encourage through your words. 0:27:16.460 --> 0:27:19.940 Yeah, yeah, I don't, I don't, uh, if you were 0:27:19.940 --> 0:27:23.379 to learn that sort of thing in graduate school, you 0:27:23.380 --> 0:27:27.380 would be a miracle on two legs. Yeah, it's just 0:27:27.380 --> 0:27:31.060 not a setting where that where the rewards are set 0:27:31.100 --> 0:27:39.260 up for that. Um, okay, so in your essay on writing, 0:27:40.020 --> 0:27:44.780 you talk about a, a recent change in your perspective 0:27:44.780 --> 0:27:49.139 on what it means to be a writer. Um, I'd 0:27:49.140 --> 0:27:50.780 love to hear you talk about that. Now, you said 0:27:50.780 --> 0:27:53.260 this happened in January of this year. Do you mean 2023, 0:27:53.300 --> 0:27:54.740 or did you write this another year? 0:27:54.900 --> 0:27:57.140 No. I was writing from the viewpoint of, uh, the 0:27:57.140 --> 0:27:59.979 story that I tell at the beginning of that chapter. 0:27:59.980 --> 0:28:01.580 So it was actually 2017. 0:28:01.619 --> 0:28:05.220 Gotcha. Okay, good. I was I was thinking, wow, you've 0:28:05.220 --> 0:28:06.540 really made a lot of progress here. 0:28:06.540 --> 0:28:08.540 And yes, I'd be impressed too. 0:28:10.660 --> 0:28:16.300 Um, okay, I that makes sense. Um, and you said 0:28:16.300 --> 0:28:18.820 you You ask the Lord what you should do. 0:28:19.260 --> 0:28:19.780 Yeah. 0:28:19.980 --> 0:28:20.980 And then what happened? 0:28:21.660 --> 0:28:24.540 Yeah. I'll back up a little bit on that. Um. 0:28:24.700 --> 0:28:30.260 In 20. So I graduated from grad school in 20, 0:28:30.300 --> 0:28:34.939 in 2009. We moved to Colorado in 2010. And I 0:28:34.940 --> 0:28:38.180 think amid the whole, you know, upheaval of everything that 0:28:38.180 --> 0:28:40.420 we had known and the stripping away of community and 0:28:40.420 --> 0:28:44.580 learning the ropes of new motherhood, um, I had started blogging. 0:28:45.500 --> 0:28:47.540 This is as best as I can remember it. Um, 0:28:47.540 --> 0:28:51.020 I had started blogging just to. I don't know that 0:28:51.020 --> 0:28:52.300 I was trying to get words out. I think I 0:28:52.300 --> 0:28:56.420 was just trying to make something. Um, and then, you know, 0:28:56.460 --> 0:29:01.300 there was a little online Christian women blogging world out 0:29:01.300 --> 0:29:04.940 there at the time. Um, and those were mostly for 0:29:04.940 --> 0:29:09.100 helping me to reorient my perspective from day to day, 0:29:09.460 --> 0:29:12.300 you know, because they can all blur together. Um, but 0:29:12.300 --> 0:29:14.620 I think it was when I ran across the rabbit 0:29:14.660 --> 0:29:20.060 room A few years later that I it just it 0:29:20.060 --> 0:29:24.140 was an epiphany. It was, um, it was really something 0:29:24.180 --> 0:29:27.220 to see that there were people writing entire essays and 0:29:27.220 --> 0:29:30.140 articles on works of art that they loved, and trying 0:29:30.140 --> 0:29:33.940 to figure out why and what, um, the beautiful things 0:29:33.940 --> 0:29:38.180 were about those works of art. Um, and so then 0:29:38.180 --> 0:29:42.140 I started writing longer form essays, but I always did 0:29:42.140 --> 0:29:44.580 it as someone who was kind of sneaking away from 0:29:44.580 --> 0:29:48.140 daily life to do those things, you know, like if 0:29:48.140 --> 0:29:51.420 I left, if I was leaving some household chores done, um, 0:29:51.460 --> 0:29:55.180 there would always be that faint hum of guilt underneath 0:29:55.220 --> 0:29:57.420 it all. And I didn't know exactly what I was 0:29:57.420 --> 0:29:59.740 doing with those essays and whether I would submit them 0:29:59.940 --> 0:30:06.180 or stories. Um, so so the January of 2017, um, 0:30:06.340 --> 0:30:10.340 I sat down and I, I, I felt the freedom 0:30:10.340 --> 0:30:13.100 at that point to ask the Lord, listen, am I 0:30:13.100 --> 0:30:16.610 really am I really wasting my time? Should I, you know, 0:30:17.570 --> 0:30:19.090 should I get my head on straight and go back 0:30:19.090 --> 0:30:24.650 to work? Um. And so I left it open, ended 0:30:24.650 --> 0:30:27.290 to him. And I really think that was the first 0:30:27.450 --> 0:30:31.010 time that I could have asked it that way, without 0:30:31.010 --> 0:30:34.290 wishing that he would answer in one direction or the other. Anyway, 0:30:34.290 --> 0:30:37.490 so I asked that question and then, um, I think 0:30:37.490 --> 0:30:39.170 the way that I talk about it in the book 0:30:39.170 --> 0:30:43.810 was that it? The answer came in little pieces at 0:30:43.810 --> 0:30:47.890 a time, and it did surprise me because it wasn't. Yes, 0:30:47.890 --> 0:30:50.850 get back to work, be a mother, be a wife, um, 0:30:51.010 --> 0:30:55.090 or whatever all of that entails. Um, and it wasn't. Well, 0:30:55.090 --> 0:30:57.570 you have a shining gift. You should go and use that. 0:30:57.610 --> 0:30:59.729 It was really just. It just came down to a 0:30:59.730 --> 0:31:05.090 very plain answer of, do you know what I've made 0:31:05.090 --> 0:31:07.730 you to do? Do be a part of the kingdom, 0:31:08.090 --> 0:31:10.450 be a part of the body of Christ. And, um, 0:31:10.810 --> 0:31:12.450 and when it came down to it, I, I realized 0:31:12.450 --> 0:31:14.890 that writing was maybe one of those few things that 0:31:14.890 --> 0:31:16.930 I had to offer that could be of any use 0:31:16.930 --> 0:31:20.490 at all to somebody else. Um, and so that was 0:31:20.490 --> 0:31:25.730 kind of a realistic answer, I thought. Or, um, a 0:31:25.770 --> 0:31:30.850 middle ground. Good, solid answer for me. So, um, when 0:31:30.850 --> 0:31:35.090 that came, I decided to I think that gave me 0:31:35.090 --> 0:31:38.690 the freedom to start treating it as more of a, um, 0:31:39.410 --> 0:31:41.650 a charge that I had and something that I could 0:31:41.650 --> 0:31:43.370 be faithful with in doing. 0:31:44.250 --> 0:31:44.730 Mhm. 0:31:45.050 --> 0:31:45.450 Yeah. 0:31:45.490 --> 0:31:48.770 But you also say it wasn't a lofty charge. Your 0:31:48.810 --> 0:31:51.050 sense of occasion was not a lofty charge, but rather 0:31:51.890 --> 0:31:53.450 like a little garden allotment. 0:31:53.930 --> 0:31:56.770 Yes. I want to say that that's a phrase that 0:31:56.770 --> 0:31:59.370 I got from you. Um, maybe I wanted to have 0:31:59.370 --> 0:32:00.370 it newsletters or. 0:32:00.650 --> 0:32:04.050 That's something I've talked about before. So yes, it definitely 0:32:04.050 --> 0:32:05.010 caught my attention. 0:32:05.130 --> 0:32:08.209 Uh, yeah. So I loved I loved that image. 0:32:08.490 --> 0:32:11.650 Um, yeah. And I think it's so true that you 0:32:11.650 --> 0:32:15.330 have an allotment plot and you can invest the time 0:32:15.330 --> 0:32:18.410 and the energy to make it flourish. Um, and dream 0:32:18.410 --> 0:32:20.610 about what you can bring out of it for others. 0:32:20.850 --> 0:32:25.330 Yeah, I love it. Um, and it's it's that's a 0:32:25.330 --> 0:32:27.810 freeing way to think about it. I mean, this whole 0:32:28.050 --> 0:32:30.050 this whole chapter, there are lots of ways that you 0:32:30.050 --> 0:32:32.170 talk about writing in that chapter that I feel like 0:32:32.170 --> 0:32:37.090 that that chapter, that essay, um, I mean, that essay is, is, 0:32:37.410 --> 0:32:40.290 you know, worth the whole book. I mean. 0:32:40.330 --> 0:32:40.770 Wow. 0:32:41.090 --> 0:32:43.370 I, I love the whole book, but but that I 0:32:43.370 --> 0:32:47.090 think that essay is so helpful, um, in the ways 0:32:47.090 --> 0:32:53.610 that you reframe, you know, I mean. Creative work, you know, 0:32:53.970 --> 0:32:56.530 and what it means to within the kingdom to do 0:32:56.570 --> 0:33:02.530 creative work. I mean, things like, um, when you said, um, uh, 0:33:02.530 --> 0:33:05.290 you know, I'm now you paraphrase this a minute ago, 0:33:05.290 --> 0:33:07.770 but I'm, I think I have, as a member of 0:33:07.770 --> 0:33:10.810 the body of Christ, Your first calling is to live 0:33:10.810 --> 0:33:14.690 and breathe and be, and your writing grows out of that, 0:33:14.690 --> 0:33:20.290 out of your being, not out of your, um, whatever else, 0:33:20.290 --> 0:33:22.770 wherever else it might grow out of. And I do 0:33:22.770 --> 0:33:25.970 think a lot of times, uh, writers think it's their 0:33:25.970 --> 0:33:29.250 job to ventriloquize to learn to sound like somebody else 0:33:29.770 --> 0:33:32.370 and to have, you know, to have a different kind 0:33:32.370 --> 0:33:34.730 of ideas than the ones they normally have. 0:33:34.970 --> 0:33:35.370 Yeah. 0:33:35.410 --> 0:33:38.290 Um, because how could my ideas be worth that much 0:33:38.850 --> 0:33:41.730 to anybody else? Because who am I to have big 0:33:41.730 --> 0:33:45.450 ideas and and I appreciate your what you're saying here. 0:33:45.450 --> 0:33:49.370 I big or small, they're my ideas. And somebody might 0:33:49.370 --> 0:33:49.850 need them. 0:33:50.410 --> 0:33:53.650 Yeah. Yeah. I love the way that you phrased that 0:33:53.650 --> 0:33:58.210 to ventriloquize something. Yeah. And there's a difference. I think 0:33:58.210 --> 0:34:01.890 there's a balance or there's, I guess the flip side 0:34:01.930 --> 0:34:03.450 of how you can look at that, that you want 0:34:03.450 --> 0:34:06.690 your writing to continually. You want to be good at it. 0:34:06.690 --> 0:34:10.410 You want to get better at the the art aspect, 0:34:10.450 --> 0:34:12.610 the skill aspect of it. And a lot of times 0:34:12.610 --> 0:34:16.410 that does entail research and becoming a better thinker or 0:34:17.050 --> 0:34:20.529 a better communicator. But yes, to feel the pressure to 0:34:20.530 --> 0:34:24.890 be somebody that you're not, I think is ultimately it's 0:34:25.050 --> 0:34:28.770 it fizzles out eventually, but it also detracts from the 0:34:28.969 --> 0:34:31.330 the story that you have been given to tell, which is, 0:34:32.210 --> 0:34:35.410 I think, for every person much more momentous than they 0:34:35.570 --> 0:34:36.450 often think it is. 0:34:36.930 --> 0:34:37.410 Yeah. 0:34:37.810 --> 0:34:38.130 Yeah. 0:34:38.250 --> 0:34:40.330 What? Momentous or not, it's just what you've got. 0:34:40.530 --> 0:34:40.890 Yes. 0:34:41.090 --> 0:34:43.970 When you. When you get out beyond. When you start, 0:34:44.010 --> 0:34:46.049 you know, leaning out too far over your skis. You're 0:34:46.050 --> 0:34:47.330 from Colorado. You understand these. 0:34:47.330 --> 0:34:53.169 Things. I don't ski, but. Yeah. I can. 0:34:53.170 --> 0:34:53.850 Imagine. 0:34:54.050 --> 0:34:58.850 The, um. But you end up only giving people something 0:34:58.890 --> 0:35:01.810 that that they could have gotten for themselves. If it's 0:35:01.810 --> 0:35:04.290 not coming from you anyway, then, you know, and you 0:35:04.290 --> 0:35:08.930 had to go elsewhere to borrow it to give. They 0:35:08.930 --> 0:35:15.130 could have borrowed it to. I. Your your limitations really 0:35:15.130 --> 0:35:17.770 do provide you with some clues as to what you 0:35:17.770 --> 0:35:20.730 have to give to the world. They're not just a 0:35:21.489 --> 0:35:25.130 I mean, and you talk about this, um, in a 0:35:25.130 --> 0:35:30.130 slightly different way when you you talk about getting rejoicing 0:35:30.130 --> 0:35:32.290 in the fact that it's not your job to write 0:35:32.290 --> 0:35:36.089 about every topic or to write in every genre. You've 0:35:36.090 --> 0:35:39.730 got your your things that are that are you you, um, 0:35:40.410 --> 0:35:43.010 learn to sing the song that God put in your mouth. 0:35:43.489 --> 0:35:44.129 Yeah. 0:35:44.330 --> 0:35:49.890 Um, yeah. That's what that's that's that's from the Psalms. 0:35:50.210 --> 0:35:51.410 Yes it is. 0:35:51.450 --> 0:35:55.810 Which you, you know, you you quote. I'm not, I'm not. 0:35:55.930 --> 0:35:57.969 I'm quoting you. Quoting the Psalms is what's going on. 0:35:58.650 --> 0:35:59.850 Yes. That's good. Yeah. 0:35:59.890 --> 0:36:00.890 Um. But I love it. 0:36:01.610 --> 0:36:02.090 Yeah. 0:36:02.130 --> 0:36:04.049 That's learning to sing. The song that God put in 0:36:04.050 --> 0:36:08.210 your mouth is a remarkable way to think about what 0:36:08.210 --> 0:36:09.250 what this work is. 0:36:09.690 --> 0:36:10.210 Yes. 0:36:10.250 --> 0:36:13.370 And it I think it really just shows the remarkableness 0:36:13.370 --> 0:36:15.850 of our God to that he he could have had 0:36:15.850 --> 0:36:18.890 the song come from anywhere else. He could have just 0:36:18.930 --> 0:36:21.930 had it sung or just exist in itself. But the 0:36:21.930 --> 0:36:24.009 fact that he brings us alongside him and that we 0:36:24.010 --> 0:36:26.810 were made to participate in that, and that there's a 0:36:26.810 --> 0:36:30.489 mystery of there's an interchange and a growth that happens 0:36:30.489 --> 0:36:34.210 as we do so. Uh, it's so exhilarating to think 0:36:34.210 --> 0:36:37.730 about and so good of him to give us that participation, 0:36:37.730 --> 0:36:38.290 I think. 0:36:38.690 --> 0:36:39.170 Yeah. 0:36:39.610 --> 0:36:39.850 Yeah. 0:36:39.850 --> 0:36:44.250 Yes. I want to talk briefly, and we're running out 0:36:44.250 --> 0:36:46.690 of time. I've still got lots of things on my 0:36:46.690 --> 0:36:49.130 list that we're not going to get to. But, uh, 0:36:50.450 --> 0:36:52.970 speaking of ways you reframe, I love the way you 0:36:53.330 --> 0:36:57.650 when you talk about your involvement in a community of writers, 0:36:57.730 --> 0:37:01.930 you know, at the the Anselm Society, through cultivating through 0:37:01.930 --> 0:37:05.570 the rabbit Room and I don't know how else. What's 0:37:05.570 --> 0:37:09.049 your other you know, communities of of writers are. But 0:37:09.050 --> 0:37:15.090 I love the way you talk about, um, asking for feedback. Um, 0:37:15.130 --> 0:37:19.489 let me find this here. You say, um, it's not 0:37:19.489 --> 0:37:23.930 to to ask others for their feedback is not ask 0:37:23.930 --> 0:37:26.009 them to find all the faults in your world in 0:37:26.010 --> 0:37:27.609 your words, but ask them to help you make those 0:37:27.610 --> 0:37:32.490 words as clear and well expressed as possible. And, um, 0:37:33.090 --> 0:37:35.370 I think that's a really helpful way for people who 0:37:35.370 --> 0:37:38.770 are concerned about being in a writer's group or or 0:37:39.090 --> 0:37:43.410 opening up, giving a a draft that's not a final draft. Uh, 0:37:43.410 --> 0:37:46.410 that's a vulnerable thing to do. And if you're thinking 0:37:46.410 --> 0:37:48.969 what I'm doing here is asking people to tell me 0:37:48.969 --> 0:37:50.610 everything that's wrong with what I've done. 0:37:50.969 --> 0:37:51.410 Yeah. 0:37:52.370 --> 0:37:54.850 No wonder people don't want to do that. It doesn't 0:37:54.850 --> 0:37:55.930 sound fun to me either. 0:37:56.130 --> 0:37:56.690 Yeah. 0:37:56.810 --> 0:37:59.610 Um, but if it's. Here's some people who are willing 0:37:59.650 --> 0:38:05.210 to help me. Um. speak my speaking my voice a 0:38:05.210 --> 0:38:07.489 little bit better. Yeah. And say what it is that 0:38:07.489 --> 0:38:08.810 I have to say a little bit better. 0:38:09.130 --> 0:38:09.570 Yeah. 0:38:10.410 --> 0:38:12.969 That has been the gift of being in communities like this. 0:38:13.010 --> 0:38:16.170 And I've been so interested to see how the dynamic 0:38:16.170 --> 0:38:19.650 of that feedback changes over years. I can still remember 0:38:19.650 --> 0:38:23.010 at the very beginning of the Anselm Arts Guild, um, 0:38:23.850 --> 0:38:26.250 or soon after I had come into it, at least 0:38:26.610 --> 0:38:30.930 reading a piece aloud and getting feedback on it. Um, 0:38:30.969 --> 0:38:34.489 and we had, you know, just just met. We had 0:38:34.489 --> 0:38:38.530 all just become acquainted with each other. And, um, that 0:38:38.530 --> 0:38:42.450 feedback is very different from the feedback I get nowadays 0:38:42.450 --> 0:38:46.090 when I talk to colleagues in the same community. And, um, 0:38:46.210 --> 0:38:49.210 I think it's not just that we're asking for feedback 0:38:49.210 --> 0:38:55.010 to be, uh, about whether or not we're, um, expressing 0:38:55.130 --> 0:38:58.890 the words clearly enough, but it's also a request to 0:38:58.890 --> 0:38:59.610 be known. 0:38:59.610 --> 0:38:59.690 Own. 0:39:00.370 --> 0:39:03.170 Like when you're in community with peers, when they know 0:39:03.170 --> 0:39:05.810 where you are coming from and they know what your 0:39:05.810 --> 0:39:08.970 aspirations are. Um, I remember that one of the questions 0:39:08.969 --> 0:39:11.490 that we asked, uh, in a guild meeting was, um, 0:39:11.690 --> 0:39:14.650 what is your dream of your, um, magnum opus? If 0:39:14.650 --> 0:39:17.250 you had to describe your magnum opus, what would it be? 0:39:17.489 --> 0:39:20.370 And those answers were so illuminating to me. I carried 0:39:20.410 --> 0:39:23.649 them with me today. So when I'm giving feedback to somebody, 0:39:23.969 --> 0:39:26.090 it may not be that they're working on their magnum opus, 0:39:26.090 --> 0:39:27.970 but I know where their heart is. I know where 0:39:28.450 --> 0:39:32.330 the hope, the hope that they hold for the audience 0:39:32.330 --> 0:39:34.850 that they want to reach. And that changes the feedback 0:39:34.850 --> 0:39:41.330 that I give. And also knowing their voices and growing 0:39:41.370 --> 0:39:44.489 used to them over time. Uh, it makes me give 0:39:44.530 --> 0:39:47.890 different feedback from, you know, feedback that I would give 0:39:47.890 --> 0:39:51.170 to a stranger. Some things become less important than others, 0:39:51.170 --> 0:39:52.690 and some things become more important. 0:39:52.690 --> 0:39:53.130 So. 0:39:53.650 --> 0:39:55.690 Um, that has been a gift to be a part of. 0:39:55.890 --> 0:39:57.810 Yeah. How did you answer that question? 0:39:59.489 --> 0:40:00.330 The magnum opus? 0:40:00.930 --> 0:40:01.210 Yeah. 0:40:03.010 --> 0:40:08.890 I don't remember right now. Um, I may have said 0:40:08.890 --> 0:40:13.250 something about it was probably linked to this. Um, I 0:40:13.250 --> 0:40:16.810 don't know if it my. I think a long held 0:40:16.810 --> 0:40:20.210 dream that I've had has been to write a nonfiction 0:40:20.890 --> 0:40:25.129 book about this longing and then a fiction book that 0:40:25.170 --> 0:40:28.690 evokes it. So it doesn't address it directly, but it 0:40:29.530 --> 0:40:35.770 I think my aspiration has always been to. Write something 0:40:35.770 --> 0:40:40.489 that will hearten and encourage somebody else. The way that 0:40:40.489 --> 0:40:42.650 I've been impacted by Lewis or Tolkien. 0:40:42.730 --> 0:40:43.450 Um. 0:40:43.489 --> 0:40:46.490 And favorite stories that have stuck with me over time. 0:40:46.890 --> 0:40:48.450 So it was probably something like that. 0:40:48.489 --> 0:40:48.890 Yeah. 0:40:49.250 --> 0:40:49.610 Yeah. 0:40:50.730 --> 0:40:54.609 Um, okay. I, I want to ask, uh, I think 0:40:54.610 --> 0:40:56.930 this is going to be the last big question. 0:40:57.360 --> 0:40:57.840 All right. 0:40:58.360 --> 0:41:00.440 You say I'm a different storyteller than the one I 0:41:00.440 --> 0:41:02.760 would would be if I had not stopped to ask 0:41:02.760 --> 0:41:04.040 my Lord what he thought. 0:41:04.480 --> 0:41:05.000 Mhm. 0:41:06.080 --> 0:41:06.960 How are you different? 0:41:13.520 --> 0:41:17.360 I think I write out of freedom now instead of. 0:41:19.760 --> 0:41:21.680 An ambition to earn something. 0:41:21.800 --> 0:41:22.240 Mhm. 0:41:23.280 --> 0:41:26.560 And um I think in the book I talk about 0:41:26.560 --> 0:41:31.399 or that chapter, I talk about how um asking him 0:41:31.400 --> 0:41:35.640 just um, knowing that it is something that he's commissioned 0:41:35.640 --> 0:41:38.240 me to do almost. That gives me a different sense 0:41:38.239 --> 0:41:42.360 from me trying to earn validity through the eyes of others, 0:41:42.360 --> 0:41:46.080 or through a bestseller list or, um, or others praise 0:41:46.080 --> 0:41:49.520 in some way. And, um, it's helped me, like we 0:41:49.520 --> 0:41:53.239 were talking about, realize that I'm working alongside others. Like 0:41:53.239 --> 0:41:56.080 I think C.S. Lewis in an essay talks about how, 0:41:56.120 --> 0:41:58.120 you know, we have writers have their work and a 0:41:58.160 --> 0:42:01.320 charwoman doing her work and a writer doing his work. 0:42:01.560 --> 0:42:03.719 They're both doing it to the glory of God. Like, 0:42:03.800 --> 0:42:10.920 it's it's a it's work. Um, but also, um, linking 0:42:10.920 --> 0:42:14.640 it with the homeward ache, I think has helped me 0:42:14.640 --> 0:42:17.960 realize that writing is also something that is not going 0:42:18.000 --> 0:42:20.279 to end with death. All of these things that I 0:42:20.280 --> 0:42:24.799 might have a a wistfulness about not being able to finish. Well, 0:42:24.960 --> 0:42:29.720 there is an eternity coming where that creation mandate doesn't 0:42:29.719 --> 0:42:30.280 go away. 0:42:30.600 --> 0:42:30.880 Yeah. 0:42:31.200 --> 0:42:34.960 I'm so thankful for that. And I think most of all, 0:42:34.960 --> 0:42:38.920 I think it's just been that question enabled me to 0:42:40.840 --> 0:42:43.160 to open my arms to him in a sense and 0:42:43.160 --> 0:42:46.160 to say like, well, obviously this is not something I'm 0:42:46.160 --> 0:42:49.560 doing alone and you're here. Um, and how do I 0:42:49.560 --> 0:42:52.520 walk this with you? And that has been, I think, just. 0:42:53.480 --> 0:42:53.760 Are. 0:42:54.360 --> 0:42:58.160 An amazing step by step journey of watching him provide 0:42:58.160 --> 0:43:02.200 when I was absolutely out of ideas or, um, the 0:43:02.200 --> 0:43:07.560 ability to be coherent about anything. Um, and even I 0:43:07.560 --> 0:43:11.040 see the the mercy even these days even this week 0:43:11.040 --> 0:43:14.520 with the with the book coming out soon. Um, you know, 0:43:14.560 --> 0:43:16.600 things are topsy turvy and I've got a sick family, 0:43:16.600 --> 0:43:19.040 but I see the mercy in it. I feel like 0:43:19.040 --> 0:43:23.800 I can't dismiss, uh, the circumstantial things where I'm seeing him. Um, 0:43:25.200 --> 0:43:27.800 remind me that it's not a road, that I'm walking 0:43:27.800 --> 0:43:30.240 alone or a burden that I have to carry or, 0:43:30.480 --> 0:43:34.880 you know, or a gift that I hoard to myself. 0:43:34.880 --> 0:43:40.680 This experience of walking with him or writing. So anyway, yeah, 0:43:40.719 --> 0:43:43.839 all of that. I'm so glad that I asked that question, 0:43:44.360 --> 0:43:49.680 you know, and to go back to, um, the pattern 0:43:49.680 --> 0:43:53.120 that I see throughout the book, maybe it wasn't a 0:43:53.120 --> 0:43:56.600 question that was solely born of me. Maybe too was 0:43:56.600 --> 0:43:57.600 part of the guidance. 0:43:57.840 --> 0:43:59.040 Yeah, yeah. 0:44:00.400 --> 0:44:04.160 All right. Let me let me ask my typical last question, 0:44:04.160 --> 0:44:07.359 because I know you've answered this. You answered this last 0:44:07.360 --> 0:44:09.799 time you're here. But they may have changed. So who 0:44:09.840 --> 0:44:11.640 are the writers who are making you want to write 0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:12.320 these days? 0:44:15.320 --> 0:44:15.880 Um. 0:44:17.880 --> 0:44:20.879 I probably I don't remember what I answered before. Um, 0:44:20.880 --> 0:44:23.719 but I think something that has become dear to me 0:44:23.760 --> 0:44:27.080 recently is reading the letters of the writers that I, 0:44:27.080 --> 0:44:30.560 that I admire. So it's it's not just the works, 0:44:30.600 --> 0:44:33.160 the writers who have produced these works, but the writers 0:44:33.160 --> 0:44:36.160 who and who they were behind the curtain. So Louis 0:44:36.160 --> 0:44:39.839 writing to children and Tolkien writing to his publisher and 0:44:39.840 --> 0:44:43.000 his friends and talking about, um, the things that have 0:44:43.000 --> 0:44:47.760 surprised him along the way. I've really loved revisiting those stories. 0:44:48.160 --> 0:44:48.279 Yeah. 0:44:48.280 --> 0:44:51.960 And then, um, there are I have so many living 0:44:51.960 --> 0:44:55.480 authors these days. Um, some of whom have become good 0:44:55.480 --> 0:44:58.800 friends who really inspired me, like, um, trust a pain 0:44:58.800 --> 0:45:03.759 in the cultivating project. And, um, Matthew Cyr, they've they've 0:45:03.760 --> 0:45:06.200 both had pieces that caught my attention, I think, because 0:45:06.200 --> 0:45:09.640 they were writing about their fathers and Trusta was writing 0:45:09.640 --> 0:45:14.840 about the kindness of God. Did her father, who rejected Christ, 0:45:15.080 --> 0:45:17.160 finally see the kindness of God in the end? And 0:45:17.160 --> 0:45:19.960 then you've got Matthew Sears piece about loading his father's 0:45:20.000 --> 0:45:23.279 ashes into a shotgun and, um, and making that be 0:45:23.280 --> 0:45:26.279 his tribute to him. Um, there's just something about the 0:45:26.280 --> 0:45:28.200 way that they tell those stories and the way that 0:45:28.200 --> 0:45:32.360 they plumb the depths of, um, their own sorrow that 0:45:33.320 --> 0:45:34.600 I'm so grateful for. 0:45:34.840 --> 0:45:35.280 Yeah. 0:45:35.640 --> 0:45:39.760 Yeah, yeah. I love it when when people answer this 0:45:39.760 --> 0:45:41.600 question with people that they know. 0:45:42.360 --> 0:45:44.000 Oh, great. I'm glad. 0:45:44.640 --> 0:45:47.359 All right, well, Amy Lee, Amy Buckley, thank you so 0:45:47.360 --> 0:45:50.239 much for being here. It's always a pleasure to talk. 0:45:50.280 --> 0:45:51.400 Hope we can talk again soon. 0:45:51.640 --> 0:45:52.359 That would be great. 0:45:52.360 --> 0:45:52.839 Thank you so. 0:45:52.840 --> 0:45:53.320 Much. 0:45:58.520 --> 0:46:01.440 The Habit Podcast is brought to you by the Rabbit Room, 0:46:01.440 --> 0:46:05.200 where art nourishes community, and community nourishes art. You can 0:46:05.200 --> 0:46:08.560 support their work including this podcast, by becoming a member. 0:46:08.800 --> 0:46:14.640 Visit COVID-19. Special thanks as well to Taylor Leonard for 0:46:14.640 --> 0:46:17.200 letting us use her song diamonds as the theme music 0:46:17.200 --> 0:46:20.200 for The Habit podcast. You can learn more about Taylor 0:46:20.200 --> 0:46:25.120 and follow her work at Taylor Comm. The Habit Membership 0:46:25.120 --> 0:46:28.960 is a library of resources for writers by me, Jonathan Rogers. 0:46:29.280 --> 0:46:31.719 More importantly, the habit is a hub of community where 0:46:31.760 --> 0:46:34.520 like minded writers gather to discuss their work and give 0:46:34.520 --> 0:46:37.600 each other a little more courage. Find out more at 0:46:37.640 --> 0:46:38.920 the Habit Co.