S1: I think I write out of freedom now. Instead of
S1: an ambition to earn something, knowing that it is something
S1: that he's commissioned me to do, almost. That gives me
S1: a different sense from me trying to earn validity through
S1: the eyes of others, or through a bestseller list, or, um,
S1: or others praise in some way. Linking it with the
S1: Homeward Ache, I think, has helped me realize that writing
S1: is also something that is not going to end with death.
S1: All of these things that I might have a a
S1: wistfulness about not being able to finish well, there is
S1: an eternity coming where that creation mandate doesn't go away.
S2: Welcome to the habit podcast conversations with writers about writing.
S2: I'm Jonathan Rogers, your host, and this is an episode
S2: from The Habit archives. Amy Beckley has written that in
S2: every place her life has taken her from the Blue
S2: Ridge Mountains of her early childhood to the teeming streets
S2: of Seoul, Korea, to the old wood paneled libraries of
S2: the University of Virginia, to the Rocky Mountains, where she
S2: now lives. And now I'm quoting her. There have always
S2: been hints of beauty and great knocks of mercy that
S2: have called me from beyond my surroundings, always speaking of
S2: a king and friend and father whose presence is truly home.
S2: That sense of longing, those clues that maybe we were
S2: made for a different world, make their way out in everything.
S2: Amy writes, and especially in her book, That Homeward Ache
S2: How Our yearning for the Life to come spurs on
S2: our life today. In this episode, Amy and I talk
S2: about homeward longing, the idea of Zen, and the importance
S2: of writing in community. Amy Beckley, I'm so glad to
S2: have you back on The Habit podcast. I'm really excited
S2: about your new book, This Homeward Ache. Um, and I'm
S2: looking forward to talking to you about the book and
S2: about this whole idea of the homeward Ache and Sehnsucht.
S2: If I'm saying that word right.
S1: Yeah. Thank you for having me on. I'm so excited
S1: to be talking about it on this podcast, because I
S1: think there are a lot of listeners who will know
S1: and resonate with that long.
S2: Yeah, a lot of, uh, like minded people. Yeah. So
S2: tell me about your history with Homeward Longing or Homeward Ache.
S1: Mhm. Um, well, as far back as I can remember,
S1: I think one of the first instances, um, encounters I
S1: had really with that longing, um, one of them involves
S1: a meadow that I lived near when I was nine
S1: years old. And I remember, um, walking up the hill
S1: and seeing, I mean, it was, you know, kind of
S1: probably just one of the many meadows that you can
S1: see dotted all over the Blue Ridge Mountains. And, um,
S1: but there was something about the quality of being there
S1: and what I was seeing and the atmosphere that I
S1: was in that cut me to the heart. Really? And, um.
S1: And so, years later, uh, when I ran across C.S.
S1: Lewis's description of Zane and of, um, his own encounters
S1: with that kind of longing, that's the memory that surfaced
S1: for me. Mhm. Um, and so I still look back
S1: on that first experience as being probably one of the
S1: most impactful ones. Um, yeah.
S2: Yeah. Um, and I guess we, we kind of jumped
S2: right in. Maybe we should have, uh, backed up. Maybe
S2: we can back up now. Um, what you're calling homeward ache, uh,
S2: or or homeward longing. Lewis called. Well, Lewis didn't invent
S2: that word, of course, but. But he used the word Sehnsucht.
S2: I always have trouble pronouncing that word, but, um. Um.
S2: And so, um, so the meadow was your connection to
S2: your your first memory of of that kind of, um,
S2: that longing, that that ache that is better than the
S2: relief from the ache.
S1: Yes. Yeah.
S2: Um, do you have a definition of of at the
S2: tip of your tongue here?
S1: Well, I've heard it described as, um, a longing for
S1: a place that you can't return to, a longing for
S1: a place that you may have never even been to. Um.
S1: And I like that. I think, um, Louis only uses
S1: the word xainza, which he took from German romanticism. Um,
S1: I think it's only used once in surprised by Joy.
S1: But he also, he calls it by other names like
S1: Inconsolable Longing. And, um, it's for me, it was really
S1: in his stories that I got the sense of what
S1: he was trying to get at and what he was describing. Um,
S1: but that's, I think generally the, definition that's given for.
S2: Yeah. Yeah. Um, what's the the argument from desire. So-called
S2: argument from desire from, uh, I guess mere Christianity where
S2: where Lewis says, you know, all our desires point to
S2: something that something that fulfill, you know, you're thirsty because
S2: there's such thing as water and you're hungry because there's
S2: such thing as food, right? And if you long for
S2: something that that isn't on Earth, maybe that means you're
S2: made for something besides Earth, right?
S1: Exactly.
S2: Yeah.
S1: Yeah.
S2: And it is interesting the way, uh. And you've already
S2: touched on this for you. It was this meadow which
S2: was like, there are probably a dozen other meadows like
S2: that that you've seen in your life that didn't have
S2: the same effect on you. Mhm. That didn't feel like
S2: this little, this little, you know, tear in the, in
S2: the veil that, that pointed you to eternity. Um, and
S2: when I talked to people, when I hear people talk
S2: about their experiences of this Aik. Um, it's not because
S2: I mean, even even with Louis, it's, you know, a
S2: flowering currant bush, which he makes no claim is the
S2: greatest flowering currant bush in the history of the world.
S2: It's just the one that happened to to have an
S2: effect on him and that little, you know, moss garden
S2: in a in a biscuit tin. Right. Again, nothing all
S2: that special. Yeah. But for some reason it it made
S2: him long for something, um, something bigger.
S1: Yeah. Yeah. It's like something that comes and greets you
S1: instead of, um, something being. I mean, I know that
S1: there's an argument to be made for thin places, and
S1: I think there are special places where a lot of
S1: people can encounter that longing in that particular spot. But
S1: I guess one of the major premises that my book
S1: is running on is that it's not something that we
S1: conjure up, um, even by visiting a special site. It's
S1: something that comes and meets us often when we are
S1: not looking for it.
S2: Yeah, yeah. Um, goodness, truth and beauty. Um, when it
S2: comes to goodness, when it comes to to truth, both
S2: of those things that those are things that we pursue.
S2: But beauty is something that you you almost don't have any.
S2: You know, it it feels like grace because it comes
S2: to you on sort. Yeah. And it's and certainly you
S2: can seek you can seek beauty. But some of the
S2: most memorable moments of an encounter with beauty are times that,
S2: that you weren't looking for it.
S1: Yes, I would agree. Yeah.
S2: Um, okay. Well, you you say in your introduction there
S2: are lots of books and articles about Zen. Mhm. Um,
S2: and you say you're taking a different approach. What's different
S2: about your approach? Um, from other other books and, and
S2: thinkers uh, on this subject?
S1: Yeah. Um, I would say the way that it's different
S1: is it's Is almost exclusively, um, narrative nonfiction essays that
S1: are drawn from personal stories and I. It was a
S1: lane that I predefined for myself, and so I had
S1: to keep within those, uh, lines as I was writing
S1: the manuscript. Um, and I was very tempted to step
S1: outside of them sometimes, but it doesn't, um, I wanted,
S1: I wanted a book to tell a personal story because,
S1: I mean, on at the most basic level, it was
S1: because this is the only story I have to tell.
S1: And it I had felt that in reading books about
S1: this longing before, um, that the thing that I most
S1: longed for was to hear from somebody else who had
S1: experienced it and not just hear about their experience, but
S1: hear how they were living with it, you know, and
S1: that they hadn't just dismissed it or pushed it under
S1: the rug. And so this book definitely doesn't have, um,
S1: there's no statistics, um, or historical surveys. I'm not looking
S1: at a cultural group. It's not a Bible study. Um,
S1: it really is just, uh, the story of an ordinary life.
S1: Learning to live with that longing.
S2: Yeah. All right. We've talked about the meadow. Um, what
S2: are the other ways that this homeward ache has made
S2: a difference in, in your life? Or have you have
S2: experienced it? How has it changed the way you parent or, uh,
S2: or live in community with friends or go to church or.
S1: Yeah. Yeah, that's I would say that's the whole story
S1: of part two. That's what all the essays are trying
S1: to describe that effect. Um, I would say it was
S1: the journey of walking through and exploring what the ache was,
S1: where it came from, why it was significant, and why
S1: it wasn't just, uh, a trail of breadcrumbs that was
S1: meant to lead me to the truth of Christ as
S1: Savior and be discarded with. Um, but something about that
S1: journey itself was transformative. And I think there's a quality
S1: to the inconsolable longing, to homeward longing that can teach
S1: you to have clearer eyes for eternity and for the
S1: kingdom of God here in a way that, um. A
S1: lot of other cerebral exercises can't, I think and I
S1: think that's why, um, I think that's why some of
S1: these interviews are actually difficult for me to do because, um,
S1: Lewis talked about, um, that he felt almost bashful talking
S1: about it, that he, he, you know, he was very
S1: conscious of treading on tender ground as he was broaching
S1: this subject for his readers, because it's such a tender thing.
S1: It's a personal experience. And if you've had it, if
S1: you if you remember your encounters with it. Um, those
S1: are things that we hold very close in our hearts,
S1: I think, and that are very dear to us. And, um,
S1: but to take that attitude and to take that stance
S1: to living and to look at parenting, to look at
S1: writing all of these things, um, I guess that is
S1: what I wanted to look at. And so I guess
S1: I'm basically saying I tried to answer that in part two,
S1: or at least begin to.
S2: Yeah, yeah, you should. Um, I'm sure you have more
S2: of these interviews coming up. You should ask your interlocutors
S2: to tell their stories of when they experienced how they've experienced.
S1: Yeah, I would love to hear that. That's been one
S1: of the best parts. Yes.
S2: Um, you say that this the this homeward ache is
S2: an ache that's worth carrying. Um. Why why is it
S2: worth carrying? Because one way to handle it is to
S2: ignore it and to be embarrassed that you're. That you
S2: were so sentimental or or whatever.
S1: Oh, sentimental is such a good word, because that was
S1: one of my prayers that I, as I was writing
S1: this book, I was praying, I think, continually that, um,
S1: I wouldn't fall off the edge into sentimentalism or that
S1: it would strike. It's bound to strike somebody out there
S1: as that anyway. But, um, I think the ache is
S1: worth carrying because of what it does when you when
S1: you hold it, you're holding an open stance to. Receiving
S1: more instances of it, of, um, of being in a
S1: vulnerable place and to walk through life with that kind
S1: of vulnerability, um, I think gives us a better foundation
S1: from which to love. Really?
S2: Yeah.
S1: Yeah.
S2: Um, and it's, it feels like, though it's also an
S2: ache that that contains a promise. Right? You you feel
S2: this ache because there's something, you know, it's not just
S2: your imagination that there's something or it's not just wishful
S2: thinking that there's that there's more to this world than
S2: meets the eye.
S1: Yeah.
S2: Um, and, um, and they're here and they're in in
S2: your book, you you talk about re-enchantment. Um, don't you
S2: have that right?
S3: I do, yes. The attitude of wonder. Yeah.
S2: I just had a moment of, you know, I read
S2: another book. This this. I was reading a different book
S2: this morning. I was afraid I was it was getting
S2: it wrong. Uh, yeah. Um, but the. Well, we can
S2: call it. We can call it Re-enchantment. You can also
S2: call it disenchantment because the world enchants us to. Yes,
S2: the status quo enchants us and says this is the
S2: only world there is. And it's like the, you know,
S2: the silver chair, the the, uh, the green, the green lady,
S2: you know, saying, this is all. This is all there is.
S2: And for 23 hours. Yeah. Um, Prince William believes it.
S2: And then for one hour, he knows it's not true.
S3: Yeah.
S2: Um. The. Okay. Um. I want to I want to
S2: read a a moment that I, that I love from
S2: your book. I guess the polite thing would be to
S2: let you read it, but I've got it right here
S2: in front of me, so I'm going to read it
S2: my own self.
S1: Go right.
S3: Ahead.
S2: You say one day soon our longing will heal in
S2: the most curious way, and we will find that it
S2: was not a wound that marred our earthly existence, but
S2: a cleft through which the fullness of our coming joy shone.
S2: I love it. Do you have any more to say
S2: about that?
S1: Just how gracious of God that that is true. I
S1: think that's absolutely linked to what you were saying just
S1: now about the ache being linked to a promise.
S3: Yeah.
S1: Uh. And how. What a depressing thing it would be
S1: if it weren't linked to a promise to have an
S1: ache that was just terminal. Um, and I think that's
S1: part of the reason why I wrote the book, especially
S1: part one, because there are people who feel the ache
S1: but don't know where it's coming from. Don't dare to
S1: think that. And they don't dare to think that it's
S1: tied to something that could be coming. Um, we were
S1: we were actually at Disney World, um, earlier this year.
S1: It was a trip that we had saved for for
S1: a long time. But, um, I think maybe having had
S1: all of those years of anticipation, I was really odd
S1: to be there, in a way. Um, I was trying
S1: I was standing there trying to understand why, you know,
S1: some believers I know love going to Disney World. They
S1: make a habit of it. Um, and then we were
S1: there also to just the best part of it for
S1: me was watching our kids, seeing it through the eyes
S1: of our kids. And you get this sense of wonder
S1: and joy and marveling at things. But, um, it was
S1: just a it was almost a surreal experience of you're
S1: in this utopia where people are actively trying to host
S1: this experience for you and draw you into a world
S1: where you don't have to worry about daily things for
S1: a while. And, um, and you're part of the magic
S1: and you're part of a story that, you know, hundreds
S1: of other people around you are familiar with. Um, but
S1: it was just a little bit jarring for me because
S1: I remember thinking like, what if? In some ways, maybe
S1: this is the closest that some people are going to
S1: ever get to the experience of the New Jerusalem. And
S1: so something about that thought and holding it together with
S1: the reality of God's promises, I haven't exactly, you know,
S1: spun out all of the definition and the meaning of that.
S1: But I just remember trying to hold both those truths
S1: and finding it sad but also hopeful at the same time,
S1: because the fact that we have an appetite to be
S1: a part of such a story and such a world, um,
S1: or such worlds, I think, signals that we definitely have
S1: that longing in all of us. Anyway, it was really long. Yeah,
S1: that makes sense.
S3: Um.
S2: I'll tell you what. What I love about Disney World.
S2: I've been once, uh, as an adult, I was just
S2: so amazed at how much the people who made the
S2: place seem to love what they were doing, and. And
S2: that in itself is meaningful. Um, and, um, I mean,
S2: even even the, um, you know, when you're waiting in
S2: line for the roller coaster about the Himalaya, you know,
S2: the Himalayan monster, the Yeti thing, there's this museum of
S2: of Yeti culture that's completely made up while you're waiting
S2: in line and those kind of details. Um, and that
S2: kind of hospitality, um, really, um, made me. I was
S2: so impressed. But we are off the we are off
S2: the subject. I don't know how that relates to the
S2: new heavens and the new earth. Um, but I'm looking
S2: forward to your next book in which you sort all
S2: this out.
S3: Sounds great.
S2: Uh, let's talk about George MacDonald. Uh, who, uh, also, uh,
S2: doesn't play as big a role as C.S. Lewis in
S2: your book, but he plays a he plays a role. Um,
S2: and you quote him on the wise imagination.
S3: Mhm.
S2: And I love this, uh, I love this insight, which
S2: now I don't remember if you're quoting MacDonald or if
S2: you're just paraphrasing, but it's not the things that we
S2: see most clearly that influence us most powerfully. Um, Um, yes.
S2: And I don't that that feels like a really important insight.
S2: And then I don't know what the next step in
S2: making sense of that is, you know, in other words,
S2: if the things if it's not the things we understand
S2: most clearly that influence us most powerfully, do we then
S2: stop trying to understand things clearly? Um, I mean, and
S2: I'm kind of asking when I was as I was
S2: composing this question, my first thing was, what are the
S2: what are the practical applications of. Well, that's that's not
S2: in the spirit of the observation that to go looking
S2: for practical applications to, to this very impractical but true observation.
S1: Yeah. So you're asking what the implications are for us.
S2: Yeah. Or what does this have to do with, um,
S2: the idea that that it's not the things we understand
S2: most clearly that impact us most powerfully.
S3: Um, Mhm.
S2: Our influence is most powerfully. How does that does that
S2: change anything about the way we think about writing storytelling? Um.
S3: I think so.
S1: Yeah. Um, well, he's saying that it's not the things
S1: we see most clearly. Right. Um, that influence us most powerfully.
S1: And so, um, I think as writers, as people who
S1: are trying to tell the stories that we're living, um,
S1: it I think it reminds us that the essence of
S1: what we're trying to convey in writing is never the
S1: static image itself. So as good as we can get
S1: at describing our surroundings or doing all those writerly things
S1: like keeping notebooks with details and using our five senses
S1: and all of that, that's important. But ultimately, when you
S1: are trying to convey something, be it through a essay
S1: or story or poem or whatever, um, we're trying to
S1: convey something that is at the core of our experience,
S1: and those are things that are informed by things that
S1: are not seen, like the the things that we have felt,
S1: the things that we have lived through, the grief and
S1: the sorrow, the lament, the joy, um, the underlying truths
S1: that we believe to be at work in the world,
S1: all of those things. I mean, it's really a marvel
S1: that when you read a book, you you can parse it,
S1: but you're not just reading simple details. You're actually taking
S1: in a whole way of looking at the world. Right?
S1: So I think when we consider how we're influenced and
S1: what we're taking in, um, it is absolutely a lot
S1: of unseen, the unseen things that color our experience, that
S1: inform it, that form the basis of most of it.
S3: Um hmm.
S2: Did I misquote MacDonald when I said the things that,
S2: uh oh, I did misquote him. I've seen some things
S2: we don't understand. Yeah, things.
S3: But I think that could be true too.
S2: Yeah. The things that we don't always comprehend.
S3: Yeah.
S1: So sometimes we have to work it out on paper too.
S1: Sometimes we don't get to the end of figuring it out.
S2: Mhm.
S3: Yeah.
S2: Um. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then you know, McDonald's formulation
S2: in the same, you know, on the same page I think. Um,
S2: speaking of the outward world as a passing vision of
S2: the persistent. True.
S3: Yeah.
S2: Um, and that, that confidence that that which is ultimately
S2: true and persistently true, um, makes itself known in the
S2: in the the visible world.
S3: Yeah.
S2: Not perhaps completely. You know, we don't know those things
S2: completely through the visible world. Um, Um, but, um. But
S2: I love that language. A passing vision of the persistent. True.
S3: I do too.
S2: And a truth, as you said. Uh, in your in
S2: your book, in that essay. It's that's not something we're
S2: conjuring up in our, in our brains. The persistent true
S2: is is not something we made.
S3: Yes.
S2: Um.
S3: Yes.
S1: That turns it all into an adventure, doesn't it? A
S1: juggling act.
S2: Yeah. That's good. Okay. I want to spend a little
S2: time talking about your chapter on writing, because a lot
S2: of people listen to this podcast are writers, and you
S2: have some great, um, great insights. Uh, there in that chapter, um,
S2: you talk about the idea that as when you're in
S2: graduate school and you the way you grew as a writer,
S2: there was not by getting more eloquent, but by Getting
S2: better at thinking clearly. And I think it's really important
S2: for writers to get out of the mindset that what
S2: we're looking for is better words, or that we're looking
S2: for words first. We're not looking for words first. We're
S2: looking to see and to understand and to, um, as
S2: you said, to think. To think clearly. Yeah. Um, and
S2: by the way, I'm glad to know that you got
S2: better at writing in an in an English graduate program.
S2: Not everybody does.
S1: I have to, yes.
S2: Um, so. Yeah. Thinking, thinking clearly. Um, um, understanding. Having
S2: a vision of the world that you can then put
S2: into words. And obviously we need skills at putting things
S2: into words. Um, and I don't think you were Pooh
S2: poohing that, that skill, but I think it's really helpful
S2: to put that skill where it belongs, which is not a,
S2: you know, and I and as the ultimate goal of
S2: a writer, which is a strange thing to say.
S1: It is, isn't it? Um, yeah. I don't know that
S1: I ever had the dream of being an eloquent writer
S1: in grad school. You know, a lot of it was survival. Um,
S1: and finding your place in the academy or figuring out, uh,
S1: so much of. When I look back on college now,
S1: I realize that so much of it was learning the
S1: language of the different subjects that I was in.
S2: Yeah.
S1: So when it came to English and going to grad school. Yeah. The, um,
S1: the thing that I really gained from that time was
S1: how to think and realizing that good writing a lot
S1: of times comes down not to the individual words and
S1: their patchwork, but the ideas and the framework of the
S1: ideas and how you're organizing them and pacing them and
S1: presenting them. And, um, it's, you know, especially when you're
S1: writing papers and you're trying to make a persuasive argument,
S1: it's almost more important that you are a clear communicator
S1: than that you are impressing the socks off of whoever's reading.
S1: You know your advisor. There may be nobody else but
S1: whoever's reading your thesis or dissertation. Um, and I, I'm
S1: really grateful for that time. I knew that I. That
S1: was kind of my test testing ground for whether or
S1: not I wanted to go on, um, to a PhD program.
S1: But I'm even having stopped at the Ma level, I'm
S1: really grateful that that's the education that I got.
S2: Yeah. Well, our, our, um, uh, the way we learn
S2: how to write in an academic setting, which is where
S2: we all pretty much learn how to write. Yeah. The the, um,
S2: the carrots and sticks are arranged in such a way
S2: that that I'm always writing for myself for what I
S2: can get out of this experience, whether you know, what
S2: I can gain, whether that's being moved on to the
S2: next grade or getting a promotion or, you know, impressing somebody, um,
S2: it's really hard to learn to think in terms of
S2: loving your reader. Write in an academic setting and then
S2: when you get out of academic setting, there's not much
S2: else that matters than how I can serve. Serve readers
S2: and introduce them to things that are important to me.
S1: Mhm. Yeah. I would say though, that in grad school
S1: I learned some of the act of hospitality you.
S2: Did.
S1: Of writing, but that was more even, that was more
S1: for am I getting my point across so that I
S1: can get what I need to out of this assignment?
S1: The actual learning to love the reader, including the readers
S1: of this book, I think, came quite a bit later
S1: for me. Um, because there's also a difference between, um,
S1: hospitality for the sake of being received. Well, um, and hospitality,
S1: because you are investing in the life of somebody that
S1: you may have never even met. But. Yeah, um, but
S1: whom you want to encourage or who you want to
S1: encourage through your words.
S2: Yeah, yeah, I don't, I don't, uh, if you were
S2: to learn that sort of thing in graduate school, you
S2: would be a miracle on two legs. Yeah, it's just
S2: not a setting where that where the rewards are set
S2: up for that. Um, okay, so in your essay on writing,
S2: you talk about a, a recent change in your perspective
S2: on what it means to be a writer. Um, I'd
S2: love to hear you talk about that. Now, you said
S2: this happened in January of this year. Do you mean 2023,
S2: or did you write this another year?
S1: No. I was writing from the viewpoint of, uh, the
S1: story that I tell at the beginning of that chapter.
S1: So it was actually 2017.
S2: Gotcha. Okay, good. I was I was thinking, wow, you've
S2: really made a lot of progress here.
S4: And yes, I'd be impressed too.
S2: Um, okay, I that makes sense. Um, and you said
S2: you You ask the Lord what you should do.
S1: Yeah.
S2: And then what happened?
S1: Yeah. I'll back up a little bit on that. Um.
S1: In 20. So I graduated from grad school in 20,
S1: in 2009. We moved to Colorado in 2010. And I
S1: think amid the whole, you know, upheaval of everything that
S1: we had known and the stripping away of community and
S1: learning the ropes of new motherhood, um, I had started blogging.
S1: This is as best as I can remember it. Um,
S1: I had started blogging just to. I don't know that
S1: I was trying to get words out. I think I
S1: was just trying to make something. Um, and then, you know,
S1: there was a little online Christian women blogging world out
S1: there at the time. Um, and those were mostly for
S1: helping me to reorient my perspective from day to day,
S1: you know, because they can all blur together. Um, but
S1: I think it was when I ran across the rabbit
S1: room A few years later that I it just it
S1: was an epiphany. It was, um, it was really something
S1: to see that there were people writing entire essays and
S1: articles on works of art that they loved, and trying
S1: to figure out why and what, um, the beautiful things
S1: were about those works of art. Um, and so then
S1: I started writing longer form essays, but I always did
S1: it as someone who was kind of sneaking away from
S1: daily life to do those things, you know, like if
S1: I left, if I was leaving some household chores done, um,
S1: there would always be that faint hum of guilt underneath
S1: it all. And I didn't know exactly what I was
S1: doing with those essays and whether I would submit them
S1: or stories. Um, so so the January of 2017, um,
S1: I sat down and I, I, I felt the freedom
S1: at that point to ask the Lord, listen, am I
S1: really am I really wasting my time? Should I, you know,
S1: should I get my head on straight and go back
S1: to work? Um. And so I left it open, ended
S1: to him. And I really think that was the first
S1: time that I could have asked it that way, without
S1: wishing that he would answer in one direction or the other. Anyway,
S1: so I asked that question and then, um, I think
S1: the way that I talk about it in the book
S1: was that it? The answer came in little pieces at
S1: a time, and it did surprise me because it wasn't. Yes,
S1: get back to work, be a mother, be a wife, um,
S1: or whatever all of that entails. Um, and it wasn't. Well,
S1: you have a shining gift. You should go and use that.
S1: It was really just. It just came down to a
S1: very plain answer of, do you know what I've made
S1: you to do? Do be a part of the kingdom,
S1: be a part of the body of Christ. And, um,
S1: and when it came down to it, I, I realized
S1: that writing was maybe one of those few things that
S1: I had to offer that could be of any use
S1: at all to somebody else. Um, and so that was
S1: kind of a realistic answer, I thought. Or, um, a
S1: middle ground. Good, solid answer for me. So, um, when
S1: that came, I decided to I think that gave me
S1: the freedom to start treating it as more of a, um,
S1: a charge that I had and something that I could
S1: be faithful with in doing.
S2: Mhm.
S1: Yeah.
S2: But you also say it wasn't a lofty charge. Your
S2: sense of occasion was not a lofty charge, but rather
S2: like a little garden allotment.
S1: Yes. I want to say that that's a phrase that
S1: I got from you. Um, maybe I wanted to have
S1: it newsletters or.
S2: That's something I've talked about before. So yes, it definitely
S2: caught my attention.
S4: Uh, yeah. So I loved I loved that image.
S1: Um, yeah. And I think it's so true that you
S1: have an allotment plot and you can invest the time
S1: and the energy to make it flourish. Um, and dream
S1: about what you can bring out of it for others.
S2: Yeah, I love it. Um, and it's it's that's a
S2: freeing way to think about it. I mean, this whole
S2: this whole chapter, there are lots of ways that you
S2: talk about writing in that chapter that I feel like
S2: that that chapter, that essay, um, I mean, that essay is, is,
S2: you know, worth the whole book. I mean.
S1: Wow.
S2: I, I love the whole book, but but that I
S2: think that essay is so helpful, um, in the ways
S2: that you reframe, you know, I mean. Creative work, you know,
S2: and what it means to within the kingdom to do
S2: creative work. I mean, things like, um, when you said, um, uh,
S2: you know, I'm now you paraphrase this a minute ago,
S2: but I'm, I think I have, as a member of
S2: the body of Christ, Your first calling is to live
S2: and breathe and be, and your writing grows out of that,
S2: out of your being, not out of your, um, whatever else,
S2: wherever else it might grow out of. And I do
S2: think a lot of times, uh, writers think it's their
S2: job to ventriloquize to learn to sound like somebody else
S2: and to have, you know, to have a different kind
S2: of ideas than the ones they normally have.
S4: Yeah.
S2: Um, because how could my ideas be worth that much
S2: to anybody else? Because who am I to have big
S2: ideas and and I appreciate your what you're saying here.
S2: I big or small, they're my ideas. And somebody might
S2: need them.
S1: Yeah. Yeah. I love the way that you phrased that
S1: to ventriloquize something. Yeah. And there's a difference. I think
S1: there's a balance or there's, I guess the flip side
S1: of how you can look at that, that you want
S1: your writing to continually. You want to be good at it.
S1: You want to get better at the the art aspect,
S1: the skill aspect of it. And a lot of times
S1: that does entail research and becoming a better thinker or
S1: a better communicator. But yes, to feel the pressure to
S1: be somebody that you're not, I think is ultimately it's
S1: it fizzles out eventually, but it also detracts from the
S1: the story that you have been given to tell, which is,
S1: I think, for every person much more momentous than they
S1: often think it is.
S2: Yeah.
S4: Yeah.
S2: What? Momentous or not, it's just what you've got.
S4: Yes.
S2: When you. When you get out beyond. When you start,
S2: you know, leaning out too far over your skis. You're
S2: from Colorado. You understand these.
S4: Things. I don't ski, but. Yeah. I can.
S1: Imagine.
S2: The, um. But you end up only giving people something
S2: that that they could have gotten for themselves. If it's
S2: not coming from you anyway, then, you know, and you
S2: had to go elsewhere to borrow it to give. They
S2: could have borrowed it to. I. Your your limitations really
S2: do provide you with some clues as to what you
S2: have to give to the world. They're not just a
S2: I mean, and you talk about this, um, in a
S2: slightly different way when you you talk about getting rejoicing
S2: in the fact that it's not your job to write
S2: about every topic or to write in every genre. You've
S2: got your your things that are that are you you, um,
S2: learn to sing the song that God put in your mouth.
S4: Yeah.
S2: Um, yeah. That's what that's that's that's from the Psalms.
S4: Yes it is.
S2: Which you, you know, you you quote. I'm not, I'm not.
S2: I'm quoting you. Quoting the Psalms is what's going on.
S4: Yes. That's good. Yeah.
S2: Um. But I love it.
S4: Yeah.
S2: That's learning to sing. The song that God put in
S2: your mouth is a remarkable way to think about what
S2: what this work is.
S4: Yes.
S1: And it I think it really just shows the remarkableness
S1: of our God to that he he could have had
S1: the song come from anywhere else. He could have just
S1: had it sung or just exist in itself. But the
S1: fact that he brings us alongside him and that we
S1: were made to participate in that, and that there's a
S1: mystery of there's an interchange and a growth that happens
S1: as we do so. Uh, it's so exhilarating to think
S1: about and so good of him to give us that participation,
S1: I think.
S2: Yeah.
S4: Yeah.
S2: Yes. I want to talk briefly, and we're running out
S2: of time. I've still got lots of things on my
S2: list that we're not going to get to. But, uh,
S2: speaking of ways you reframe, I love the way you
S2: when you talk about your involvement in a community of writers,
S2: you know, at the the Anselm Society, through cultivating through
S2: the rabbit Room and I don't know how else. What's
S2: your other you know, communities of of writers are. But
S2: I love the way you talk about, um, asking for feedback. Um,
S2: let me find this here. You say, um, it's not
S2: to to ask others for their feedback is not ask
S2: them to find all the faults in your world in
S2: your words, but ask them to help you make those
S2: words as clear and well expressed as possible. And, um,
S2: I think that's a really helpful way for people who
S2: are concerned about being in a writer's group or or
S2: opening up, giving a a draft that's not a final draft. Uh,
S2: that's a vulnerable thing to do. And if you're thinking
S2: what I'm doing here is asking people to tell me
S2: everything that's wrong with what I've done.
S4: Yeah.
S2: No wonder people don't want to do that. It doesn't
S2: sound fun to me either.
S4: Yeah.
S2: Um, but if it's. Here's some people who are willing
S2: to help me. Um. speak my speaking my voice a
S2: little bit better. Yeah. And say what it is that
S2: I have to say a little bit better.
S4: Yeah.
S1: That has been the gift of being in communities like this.
S1: And I've been so interested to see how the dynamic
S1: of that feedback changes over years. I can still remember
S1: at the very beginning of the Anselm Arts Guild, um,
S1: or soon after I had come into it, at least
S1: reading a piece aloud and getting feedback on it. Um,
S1: and we had, you know, just just met. We had
S1: all just become acquainted with each other. And, um, that
S1: feedback is very different from the feedback I get nowadays
S1: when I talk to colleagues in the same community. And, um,
S1: I think it's not just that we're asking for feedback
S1: to be, uh, about whether or not we're, um, expressing
S1: the words clearly enough, but it's also a request to
S1: be known.
S4: Own.
S1: Like when you're in community with peers, when they know
S1: where you are coming from and they know what your
S1: aspirations are. Um, I remember that one of the questions
S1: that we asked, uh, in a guild meeting was, um,
S1: what is your dream of your, um, magnum opus? If
S1: you had to describe your magnum opus, what would it be?
S1: And those answers were so illuminating to me. I carried
S1: them with me today. So when I'm giving feedback to somebody,
S1: it may not be that they're working on their magnum opus,
S1: but I know where their heart is. I know where
S1: the hope, the hope that they hold for the audience
S1: that they want to reach. And that changes the feedback
S1: that I give. And also knowing their voices and growing
S1: used to them over time. Uh, it makes me give
S1: different feedback from, you know, feedback that I would give
S1: to a stranger. Some things become less important than others,
S1: and some things become more important.
S4: So.
S1: Um, that has been a gift to be a part of.
S2: Yeah. How did you answer that question?
S1: The magnum opus?
S4: Yeah.
S1: I don't remember right now. Um, I may have said
S1: something about it was probably linked to this. Um, I
S1: don't know if it my. I think a long held
S1: dream that I've had has been to write a nonfiction
S1: book about this longing and then a fiction book that
S1: evokes it. So it doesn't address it directly, but it
S1: I think my aspiration has always been to. Write something
S1: that will hearten and encourage somebody else. The way that
S1: I've been impacted by Lewis or Tolkien.
S4: Um.
S1: And favorite stories that have stuck with me over time.
S1: So it was probably something like that.
S2: Yeah.
S4: Yeah.
S2: Um, okay. I, I want to ask, uh, I think
S2: this is going to be the last big question.
S4: All right.
S2: You say I'm a different storyteller than the one I
S2: would would be if I had not stopped to ask
S2: my Lord what he thought.
S4: Mhm.
S2: How are you different?
S1: I think I write out of freedom now instead of.
S1: An ambition to earn something.
S4: Mhm.
S1: And um I think in the book I talk about
S1: or that chapter, I talk about how um asking him
S1: just um, knowing that it is something that he's commissioned
S1: me to do almost. That gives me a different sense
S1: from me trying to earn validity through the eyes of others,
S1: or through a bestseller list or, um, or others praise
S1: in some way. And, um, it's helped me, like we
S1: were talking about, realize that I'm working alongside others. Like
S1: I think C.S. Lewis in an essay talks about how,
S1: you know, we have writers have their work and a
S1: charwoman doing her work and a writer doing his work.
S1: They're both doing it to the glory of God. Like,
S1: it's it's a it's work. Um, but also, um, linking
S1: it with the homeward ache, I think has helped me
S1: realize that writing is also something that is not going
S1: to end with death. All of these things that I
S1: might have a a wistfulness about not being able to finish. Well,
S1: there is an eternity coming where that creation mandate doesn't
S1: go away.
S4: Yeah.
S1: I'm so thankful for that. And I think most of all,
S1: I think it's just been that question enabled me to
S1: to open my arms to him in a sense and
S1: to say like, well, obviously this is not something I'm
S1: doing alone and you're here. Um, and how do I
S1: walk this with you? And that has been, I think, just.
S4: Are.
S1: An amazing step by step journey of watching him provide
S1: when I was absolutely out of ideas or, um, the
S1: ability to be coherent about anything. Um, and even I
S1: see the the mercy even these days even this week
S1: with the with the book coming out soon. Um, you know,
S1: things are topsy turvy and I've got a sick family,
S1: but I see the mercy in it. I feel like
S1: I can't dismiss, uh, the circumstantial things where I'm seeing him. Um,
S1: remind me that it's not a road, that I'm walking
S1: alone or a burden that I have to carry or,
S1: you know, or a gift that I hoard to myself.
S1: This experience of walking with him or writing. So anyway, yeah,
S1: all of that. I'm so glad that I asked that question,
S1: you know, and to go back to, um, the pattern
S1: that I see throughout the book, maybe it wasn't a
S1: question that was solely born of me. Maybe too was
S1: part of the guidance.
S4: Yeah, yeah.
S2: All right. Let me let me ask my typical last question,
S2: because I know you've answered this. You answered this last
S2: time you're here. But they may have changed. So who
S2: are the writers who are making you want to write
S2: these days?
S4: Um.
S1: I probably I don't remember what I answered before. Um,
S1: but I think something that has become dear to me
S1: recently is reading the letters of the writers that I,
S1: that I admire. So it's it's not just the works,
S1: the writers who have produced these works, but the writers
S1: who and who they were behind the curtain. So Louis
S1: writing to children and Tolkien writing to his publisher and
S1: his friends and talking about, um, the things that have
S1: surprised him along the way. I've really loved revisiting those stories.
S4: Yeah.
S1: And then, um, there are I have so many living
S1: authors these days. Um, some of whom have become good
S1: friends who really inspired me, like, um, trust a pain
S1: in the cultivating project. And, um, Matthew Cyr, they've they've
S1: both had pieces that caught my attention, I think, because
S1: they were writing about their fathers and Trusta was writing
S1: about the kindness of God. Did her father, who rejected Christ,
S1: finally see the kindness of God in the end? And
S1: then you've got Matthew Sears piece about loading his father's
S1: ashes into a shotgun and, um, and making that be
S1: his tribute to him. Um, there's just something about the
S1: way that they tell those stories and the way that
S1: they plumb the depths of, um, their own sorrow that
S1: I'm so grateful for.
S4: Yeah.
S2: Yeah, yeah. I love it when when people answer this
S2: question with people that they know.
S4: Oh, great. I'm glad.
S2: All right, well, Amy Lee, Amy Buckley, thank you so
S2: much for being here. It's always a pleasure to talk.
S2: Hope we can talk again soon.
S4: That would be great.
S1: Thank you so.
S4: Much.
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