S1: And so a mantra I think good nonfiction writers adopt
S1: is make it about them. Make it about your readers.
S1: Make it about serving them and forefronting their needs, their dreams,
S1: their hopes, their fears. And if you do that, a
S1: concept is going to resonate a lot more.
S2: Welcome to the Habit podcast conversations with writers about writing.
S2: I'm Jonathan Rogers. Your host, Will Parker Anderson, is a
S2: senior editor at Waterbrook Multnomah, a division of random House publishing.
S2: He's also the proprietor of a Substack called Writer's Circle,
S2: in which he provides tips on the writing craft and
S2: seeks to demystify the publishing industry. In this episode, Will
S2: and I talk about the three legs of publishing platform, content,
S2: and concept. Will Parker Anderson, I'm so glad to have
S2: you on The Habit podcast. Thanks for being here.
S1: Yeah, thanks for having me, I appreciate it.
S2: Yeah. Um, as I was telling you right before we
S2: started recording, I have typically made it a practice not
S2: to talk about publishing on the Habit podcast. But, you know,
S2: I was looking at your Substack and saw some of
S2: the interesting things you had to say about publishing and decided,
S2: let's do publishing, let's talk about publishing. So, uh, editing
S2: and publishing, uh, you are an editor at, um, Waterbrook.
S1: That's right. Waterbrook and Multnomah. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. And you've just recently started a or maybe I
S2: should say, restarted a Substack, uh, called The Writer's Circle.
S2: Tell me about that.
S1: Absolutely. So in my day job, you know, I'm working
S1: with authors who mainly come to us through agents. And
S1: so they normally have established audiences and platforms. What's missing
S1: from my day job is getting to develop other writers
S1: and honestly, just rub elbows with other writers, something I love. Uh, people,
S1: when you're an editor, you know, people tend to approach
S1: you and have questions about how does this work? And
S1: even yesterday I got a text from a friend saying, hey,
S1: can you read my friend's book? That happens a lot.
S1: So I just wanted to create a space that was
S1: safe where there's no cool kids, there's no inside crowd.
S1: Elite inner circle. That's this is why I call it
S1: the writer's circle. But rather than who's in, who's out,
S1: which is what publishing often feels like the writer's circle
S1: is intended to be. Hey, let's huddle up. Let's get
S1: in a circle and let's just talk about what we love,
S1: which is writing. And so that that's what, you know,
S1: it was born out of. And then also to sort
S1: of demystify publishing, because it really is a hard nut
S1: to crack for most of us. And so just offering
S1: whatever I can to give people that next step or
S1: that one encouragement that they need to keep going because
S1: it is a long obedience in the same direction as
S1: they say to publish your work. It's no joke.
S2: Yeah, Well, let's start with the the matter of what
S2: editors are looking for.
S1: Sure. Yeah, that's a loaded question. I can really speak
S1: to the lane that I'm in, which is quite narrow,
S1: which is Christian adult non-fiction. Okay, so a bunch of
S1: listeners are already thinking, all right, well, I'm going to
S1: turn this off, but no, there's a lot of principles
S1: that carry across genres. So for you fiction people, uh,
S1: those folks who write children's books, a lot of this
S1: applies to them. But yeah, there's really three things that
S1: publishers are looking for. You'll hear this repeated in publishing
S1: rooms all over the place. And, uh, we describe it
S1: as a three legged table. And I think that concrete
S1: image is quite helpful. So for your writing to stand
S1: and for it to get out into the world, you
S1: really need these three legs of the table sturdy, or
S1: at least two of them sturdy. Maybe one can be
S1: a little shorter, you know, a slight wobble. But yeah,
S1: and the three are number one. I'll start with the
S1: dreaded word, which is, uh, platform. And and that's such
S1: a dirty word among true creatives. And trust me, I
S1: share that disdain, uh, for the social media, you know,
S1: put yourself. Be loud. Um, become this personality. Uh, a
S1: lot of us who are writers, we express ourselves on
S1: the page, and we're not interested in setting up a
S1: tripod and an iPhone and recording a reel that has
S1: zero appeal to us. Yeah, but publishing has just vastly
S1: changed with the advent of social media. And so where
S1: maybe 15, 20 years ago, a publisher really held most
S1: of the responsibility for platforming a writer. You could be
S1: a quote unquote no name Same writer, but if you
S1: were gifted and a publisher took your project on, you
S1: could find yourself in Barnes and Noble, placed right next
S1: to a best selling author who had sold millions of copies.
S1: And here you are, newly on the scene. So that
S1: kind of discoverability, it just doesn't work that way anymore
S1: because of largely social media. So when I say platform,
S1: it doesn't have to be social media, but we're just
S1: looking to see are people listening to what you have
S1: to say? And specifically on the topic or the idea
S1: that you're pitching to us. And so have you sort
S1: of created momentum around your ideas. And that could be
S1: social media, or it could be something like Substack. It
S1: could be, uh, a community that you're a part of,
S1: like the rabbit room, um, where there's lots of people
S1: accessing your writing. It can look a number of ways,
S1: but generally speaking, we're just looking to see if a
S1: writer has garnered some kind of a following, um, because
S1: at the end of the day. Oh, go ahead.
S2: I was going to say, is it a rude question
S2: to ask when you say some kind of a following?
S2: Are you talking hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands? Can you
S2: even put it in those terms?
S1: Yeah, that's the question people want to know. Is there
S1: a sort of a set metric that if I hit this, yeah,
S1: I'll get a book deal, and I have good news
S1: and bad news. I'll start with the bad news. No,
S1: there's no magic number. And we would love that kind
S1: of clarity and formula. But what's cool, I think what's
S1: encouraging is that I've seen book proposals where the author
S1: had hundreds of thousands of followers and we did not
S1: offer a contract. And then just recently, I was able
S1: to acquire this amazing project. The author had maybe 300 followers. And,
S1: you know, those are numbers. Most people would hear and think, okay,
S1: I could probably pull that off. Yeah, right. And the
S1: reason why it worked was his topic was it just
S1: tapped into something that a lot of people love, which
S1: is birding of all things. And so he was a
S1: fantastic writer. I can't give away too much because we
S1: haven't announced it, but I'll just say this person has
S1: some loose rabbit room affiliation, which is fun. And, um,
S1: you know, even the, uh, the artist we're bringing on
S1: has some connections, so. But that said, yes, there's no
S1: magic number, but we definitely are looking to see that
S1: people are coming to you for whatever it is that
S1: you're writing. So in this case, this author had started
S1: a website completely devoted to birding through a Christian lens.
S1: And we just love that. So that's the first leg
S1: of the table. The other two, I'm sorry.
S2: Before you move on to the to the other two
S2: legs of the table, I got a few more questions
S2: about platform. Like I said, we've we've got six years
S2: of of, uh, of of questions not asked about platform
S2: in this podcast. So you have to answer all of them. Um, the.
S2: Has how has Substack changed? I mean like two years
S2: ago platform it felt like, oh, we're talking about social media.
S2: And now it's now there's Substack seems to me something
S2: that's that's much more that writers are much more enthusiastic
S2: about than, as you said, reels or or I know
S2: I can't even think of the other ones are called
S2: TikTok and that kind of stuff. Yeah. Tell me about that.
S2: I mean, how how was that changed the way editors
S2: think about platform or has it.
S1: Yeah. Great question. I don't know that it's significantly changed
S1: the way publishers look at it or not. Um, and
S1: I'm newer to Substack. I'm a couple months in myself.
S1: But yeah, Substack definitely is geared more toward writers, but
S1: I'm actually part of a Substack mastermind because I just
S1: wanted to learn myself. What is this platform all about?
S1: And the leader of that mastermind has said Substack. Actually,
S1: they don't even view themselves as catering to writers, which
S1: I found interesting, really intriguing. I would have said that's
S1: absolutely what they're about, but they're actually their mission is
S1: to help people earn an income based on their content
S1: and whatever form that takes. And so they're introducing video
S1: now and a lot of other things. And I'm hearing
S1: the cries of lament from a lot of people who
S1: have been on the platform like, oh, great, this is
S1: going to look just like Instagram now or Facebook or something.
S1: I think it's too early to tell, but from what
S1: I've seen, there's definitely an appetite for longer form writing
S1: on Substack, and it doesn't have that same doom scroll
S1: depressive vibe of some of the other platforms. And I
S1: really appreciate that. It's highly it's more interactive than even
S1: an email newsletter. And so one thing this is relevant,
S1: I think, that publishers look for is engagement. You can
S1: have all the followers in the world, but if no
S1: one's really consuming or interacting with your content, something's probably
S1: amiss there. You want to start a conversation with your writing.
S1: And so Substack has there's nothing like it that I
S1: found in terms of shareability. People can spread your ideas
S1: for you getting to interact through comments, direct messages, things
S1: like that. I think the platform is really well built
S1: to build community around ideas, which is exciting.
S2: Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, one thing that that seems to
S2: me is maybe different about Substack as compared to some
S2: of the other social media platforms, is that a thousand
S2: followers on Facebook and a thousand followers on Substack to me,
S2: feel like two. Two very different things. You know, who
S2: knows if if you're thousand people on on Facebook are
S2: going to see what you have posted on Facebook. It
S2: depends on some algorithms that I don't that nobody understands.
S2: And on something like Substack, you can actually see, oh, 40%
S2: of my readers open this email. You know, and so, uh,
S2: it it just feels like a to me. It feels
S2: like a the metrics feel different.
S1: Absolutely. Yeah. One of the most powerful tools any writer
S1: can have at their disposal today is an email address. Yeah.
S1: Because number one, you know, we're not manipulating people on
S1: Substack into giving us their email they've chosen to. And
S1: they know that they will now receive your writing in
S1: their inbox, which is already crowded. Um, but they're they're
S1: desiring to give you their attention. And that is very significant.
S1: So you're right. Substacks it's a different mentality. When you
S1: subscribe to someone on Substack, you're expecting their content now
S1: to be delivered to you, whereas on another platform, really
S1: all you're agreeing to when you subscribe or follow someone is.
S1: I might peruse your feed once a year for 10s,
S1: and that's about it. So that's a huge distinguisher. I'm
S1: glad you brought that up, because what you can do
S1: is you can use that email list to not just
S1: share your posts, but as you have other things materializing,
S1: maybe you have a new project or a book that's
S1: coming out that you're self-publishing or whatever it is, and
S1: you can keep your audience in the loop. So Substack
S1: is not as sophisticated as some of the email subscription
S1: services like ConvertKit, right, or Beehive or MailChimp. So there's
S1: no optimizing, you know, or automating emails or things like that.
S1: But it's got enough tools that you can do a
S1: lot more, which is nice. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. All right. Well, thanks. I just wanted to. To
S2: slow you down. Just a minute. Now you can move on.
S2: Feel free to second leg of your three legged stool
S2: or table.
S1: Yeah. We're going to build this thing by the end.
S1: We'll have it complete. Yes. So probably the most obvious
S1: one I'll do this one second. So if the first
S1: leg is platform, the second is content. And that really
S1: refers to the quality of writing itself. And that may
S1: seem overly obvious, but if I peel back the curtain
S1: as an editor, I'll just tell you you'd be surprised
S1: at the state of some of the manuscripts that come
S1: to us. Um, both. Yeah. Level of writing and the
S1: organization of the manuscript. And this is not bagging on
S1: any author that I've worked with, but it's very difficult
S1: to write a book. And so, you know, because there's
S1: so much Preoccupation with platform and numbers of followers today.
S1: Writing can subtly slip to the back burner for a
S1: lot of people. Or you have influencers who will get
S1: book deals but who have never written really a word
S1: in their life. They've just talked to a camera, and
S1: that is a very new reality. So, um, every publisher
S1: is different. But yeah, at Waterbrook, we're certainly looking for
S1: those that are gifted writers. They have a fresh way
S1: of saying things. Uh, you know, they're a lot of
S1: writers are striving for total originality, something that's never been
S1: said before. And in the nonfiction world, that's really a
S1: fool's errand. You know, as Ecclesiastes says, there's nothing new
S1: under the sun. And so whenever a writer says, well,
S1: no one's ever written about this before, what I immediately
S1: think is, well, you just haven't done your homework, because
S1: probably tons of people have and they've probably done it
S1: really well. But what's amazing about modern publishing is that,
S1: you know, God raises up voices to say old truths
S1: in new ways. And he's also given you, as a writer,
S1: a unique experiences, perspectives. And he will use all of that, uh,
S1: to take your book and reach readers in this time in,
S1: you know, these, these places. And I find that quite beautiful.
S1: But yeah, we're looking for writers who know how to write.
S1: I mean, as elementary as that sounds. And people who
S1: have that gift, uh, as an editor, I'm, of course,
S1: evaluating how much work is this going to like? Is
S1: this going to be a delightful labor of love as
S1: I edit this, or am I going to have to?
S1: Is it going to be ten times the work because
S1: this writer hasn't mastered their craft yet? So we're definitely
S1: looking at that. And I think a community like the
S1: Rabbit Room, anytime I dip my toe into this community,
S1: I read an article or I listen to a lecture
S1: or something, I just feel like I get a fire
S1: hose of thoughtful, stretching, um, inspiring, challenging content. And so
S1: this is the type of place in a sort of superficial,
S1: you know, five second scrolling world if you really want
S1: to absorb, if you really want to grow, uh, go
S1: to Hutch, you know, listen to the podcast. And I'm
S1: preaching to the choir here, but, um, it's yeah, it's
S1: quite refreshing what this community has going on. And I
S1: would encourage people to spend as much time in these
S1: kind of communities and less time trying to, you know,
S1: shoot a viral reel. Uh, and again, for listeners who
S1: like being on camera and they're great oral communicators, that's awesome.
S1: Not downplaying that. But, uh, But in terms of craft,
S1: which is what we're talking about in writing. Yeah, definitely.
S1: Just spend as much time as you can with those
S1: who are better than you and who can speak into
S1: your writing.
S2: So yeah, well, one thing you pointed out that had
S2: never really I'd never really put it together. Uh, but
S2: this is in one of your, you know, Substack posts, letters. Um,
S2: you pointed out that that, uh, platform building and growing
S2: in craft don't have to be two different things, right?
S2: When you commit to a regular newsletter, for instance, that is, yes,
S2: a way to build a platform. And at the same time,
S2: it's it's the kind of thing that is building your
S2: craft in a way that shooting another Instagram reel doesn't. Yeah.
S2: So I appreciated that.
S1: No, absolutely. In fact, since launching my Substack, I needed
S1: a breather. So I had written a newsletter every year
S1: or every week, I mean, for the last year and
S1: a half. So I had a lot of content to
S1: pull from, and as I went to post some of
S1: those older ones, I'd open it up, I'd start reading,
S1: and I'd think, this isn't that great. And and I've
S1: written my whole life. So it's not that that I
S1: just started writing, but still I was like, this is
S1: I could do so much better. And so I'd edit
S1: and I'd change, and maybe that's the editor in me,
S1: but I think it yeah, just that discipline and that
S1: rhythm of writing, writing, writing, writing it does pay off,
S1: but it's silent and subtle, like the growth of a child,
S1: where you have to make those tick marks on a
S1: door frame.
S2: Yeah, right.
S1: You don't see them growing day to day. But as
S1: you have these metrics or these milestones, you can look
S1: back and see it. And so absolutely, in fact, I
S1: would liken it to the, the single person who really
S1: wants to meet their soulmate, so to speak. And the
S1: more you focus on it and obsess over it, uh,
S1: the worse of a person to go on a date
S1: with you will become. Yeah, right. You kind of just
S1: got to live your life. And, um, and I would
S1: say so as writers just right. And that platform that
S1: you want so badly. It may come. It may not. Yeah. Um,
S1: but if you're consistently putting content out there, that is
S1: the best that you can create and you're putting your
S1: whole heart into it, that's much more important than having
S1: a strategy. The strategy part, it matters. Having, you know,
S1: for instance, a a content calendar or something that you
S1: follow or just a number of posts you want to
S1: do each month, those are great goals, but people can
S1: get so lost and so discouraged. And the anonymity of
S1: the algorithm feeling lost in the rush that they neglect
S1: what really matters, which is their craft, and people will
S1: find good content. I believe, you know, uh, the cream
S1: eventually rises to the top, and it doesn't mean you
S1: don't put any effort into platform, but it certainly means
S1: you put effort into your writing?
S2: Well, I, I have found it. You know, I guess
S2: in 2018, I said I'm going to deliver a newsletter
S2: every week, which at the time I thought was kind
S2: of crazy because it was really hard for me. I
S2: was having a hard time hitting deadlines as it was.
S2: And then to commit to a weekly deadline. Uh, but
S2: it's been so good for me, for one thing, to
S2: have people expecting something. Yes. People who might be disappointed.
S2: I mean, I don't know if they would be, but
S2: I think they might be disappointed if they didn't get
S2: something from me on a Tuesday morning after they've been
S2: expecting it every Tuesday morning since, you know, for a
S2: long time. And, um, and as you said, just that act.
S2: It's meant so much to me as a writer, um,
S2: in a lot of different ways. Uh, there's the only strategy.
S2: The only plan was, I'm going to do this every week.
S2: And then over the course of that, you sort of discover, oh,
S2: here's what I need to be writing about. Here's what
S2: people respond to. Um, and, and you just get better
S2: at it as time goes on. And I think that
S2: that commitment to say I'm going to do something that
S2: people will expect and will be hopefully disappointed if I
S2: don't do it. Yes, I think that's that's a pretty
S2: important principle for platform building. That doesn't feel like the
S2: selling of one's soul.
S1: Absolutely. Yeah. I think the best advice on building platform
S1: that I've heard is do things that are life giving
S1: to you, not things that make your soul feel like
S1: you're trying to, you know, manipulate it into some mold.
S1: And so I'm the same way, Jonathan. Writing weekly has
S1: been amazing accountability, but it's so rewarding just to be
S1: able to share something every week and to to know
S1: that maybe in some way it's it's helping or inspiring
S1: someone and, uh, otherwise I think I can really build
S1: up writing in my mind like it's an event. It's
S1: this thing that I'm going to do when I finally
S1: can get away from home. I got three young kids,
S1: so it's like I'm going to rent a cabin somewhere
S1: at some time, and it's all so ethereal that it
S1: never actually happens. And so the reality, what it looks
S1: like is, okay, I'm writing every week. I got to
S1: get this done. So sometimes it's 11 p.m. I wrote
S1: one newsletter literally in the air this year, um, sitting
S1: in the bed with an IV like, it's you just
S1: you got to get it done. It's. Yeah, for me.
S2: So you don't rent a cabin every week to write your, uh,
S2: your thing?
S1: I wish, I wish, but no. Nope. It's what, in
S1: the those nooks and crannies. And I'm not super disciplined either.
S1: Some of your listeners probably are. And they can lock
S1: in that two hour writing session each week. For me,
S1: it's sporadic, you know, it's midday, it's early morning, it's
S1: late at night. It's just whenever I can. And so, yeah,
S1: whatever works, you know, as long as you get it done. And, um, I,
S1: I feel really proud, as I'm sure you do, that
S1: I've been consistent and haven't missed a single newsletter. And
S1: so even though the process has been messy to get
S1: those out, I haven't missed one. And that's just a
S1: great that's something every writer, I think would love to
S1: look back on and be able to say, yeah, even
S1: though not every week was maybe my best work, I did.
S1: I gave my best. But life happened. But I I'm
S1: committed to this thing and and here we are. So.
S2: Well, I'm going to say one more one more thing about, uh,
S2: delivering something every week. And that is it helps. It
S2: has helped me let go of some of the preciousness
S2: of believing, like it's the the amount of time I
S2: spend on it and the amount of, of care I,
S2: I give. I mean, beyond a certain threshold. It doesn't
S2: seem to be related directly to how to how well
S2: people respond to it. It's something that I've just sort
S2: of like in the in the 11th hour just said, okay,
S2: I got to get something out. Here it is. It's
S2: been really instructive to me to see how often that's
S2: what people respond to. Um, and it's helped me let
S2: go of some, some things and some need to be,
S2: I mean, a certain amount of I'm not the kind
S2: of perfectionist that some people are, but but what little
S2: perfectionism I have had has gotten kind of gotten beaten
S2: out of me by, well, I say beaten up in
S2: some way. Just, yes, you know, beaten out of me
S2: because Tuesdays, Tuesdays just keep on coming. Yeah. But also
S2: in a much gentler way, just letting go of some
S2: things by saying, oh, this is not a function of,
S2: you know, of of how hard I work on this necessarily. Um,
S2: you know, I always say only God can make a
S2: tomato like you. You've got some work to grow. Tomatoes.
S2: There's some things I've got to do. But ultimately, it's
S2: God's job to make the tomato. I can weed, I can,
S2: I can plant.
S1: Yeah, yeah. That's that's so true. Another thing it's done
S1: for me writing consistently has been because I feel that
S1: pressure to make it the best I can. It's actually
S1: driven me toward other people for their feedback. And, you know,
S1: you sort of have that internal pebble in your shoe
S1: as a writer where you just know something's off. But
S1: but a lot of times it's on Friday evening and
S1: I send mine out Saturday mornings. So I'll go to
S1: my wife and I'll either read it aloud to her
S1: or I'll have her read it. And she's we think
S1: very differently and that's quite helpful. So, you know, she'll say,
S1: oh yeah, that doesn't make sense. Or I think your
S1: tone there, I know what you you mean or intend,
S1: but I think you should maybe dial that back or
S1: maybe turn up the volume and be a little bit
S1: more bold, get off the fence or whatever. And man,
S1: that has been so helpful. Whereas to your point, when
S1: you view your writing as too precious, sometimes you hoard
S1: it to yourself and you don't let other people in.
S1: And that's not good for your writing either. So that'd
S1: be one other thing as we're talking that came to
S1: mind as I've shared my writing more than ever, I
S1: don't mean by publishing it, I mean by welcoming others
S1: into edit. And that's been another good muscle to develop
S1: creatively is not being afraid of what others have to say.
S2: So that's good. All right. We better keep moving. Third
S2: leg of the stool or the. That's right.
S1: Yes. And I already touched on this I think. But
S1: so you have the first leg is platform, the second
S1: is content. And then the third is your concept. And
S1: that's where I think we were getting into this idea
S1: that you don't have to put the pressure on your
S1: shoulders of a totally original, never seen before idea. And
S1: this goes for fiction writers, too, you know, sort of
S1: latent in your own storytelling and the worlds maybe that
S1: you create somewhere in there. Um, you're regurgitating, uh, those
S1: fiction writers that you love, even if it's just the
S1: techniques they use, the beat of the dialogue, um, the,
S1: the way of jumping into the action, whatever it is,
S1: all of that's flowing out. And that's not something we
S1: should shy away from or apologize for. We all stand
S1: on the shoulders of the literature that has come before,
S1: and I think it's actually a way of showing respect
S1: to those that have, uh, nourished our craft. So when
S1: I say publishers are looking for a fresh concept, really
S1: what that means, certainly in the nonfiction world is we're
S1: not looking as much to see. Is this writer telling
S1: us about themself or are they talking about a topic?
S1: Those are often, I think, reductionistic ways of describing what
S1: a book is. So if an author, if their only
S1: goal is like, well, I want to tell my story,
S1: or if their only goal is, well, I want to
S1: talk about this topic, that that's not actually a mission
S1: that can be cathartic to tell your story, and your
S1: story matters immensely. It's it's valuable as one created in
S1: God's image, and it may even bless people. But the
S1: minute you talk about not just writing something, but wanting
S1: to get paid to write it, and publishers having to
S1: pay to produce it and ship it to thousands of
S1: people suddenly now, um, a marketing angle. And this, this
S1: is going to sound slimy at first, but a marketing
S1: angle comes into play where now the question is, will
S1: people actually want to read this? And that is not
S1: an evil question. Uh, or a question that steamrolls, you know, creativity. Um,
S1: certainly the idea of will an audience come to this
S1: can be approached in a poorly. But at the heart
S1: of it, what we are looking for is, does this
S1: book address a felt need? Does it name an ache
S1: that readers feel? Does it unearth or articulate a problem
S1: that they experience, but they haven't quite been able to
S1: put language to it? But this book is their aha
S1: moment where they realize, oh yes, that's me. I need
S1: help here, I need direction, I need encouragement, I need
S1: guidance and a paradigm shift that's helpful when you're forming
S1: your concept. Is this, um, writers sometimes make the mistake
S1: of placing themselves as the hero of the story instead
S1: of making themselves the guide. And some will have heard
S1: this before. But rather than saying, you know, I have
S1: all the answers, listen to me, I'm the expert. And
S1: of course, as writers, we hope to come with knowledge
S1: and expertise, but instead it's to say to focus on
S1: the reader, to look them in the eye and say, okay,
S1: I know that you feel this, you struggle with this,
S1: or you have this problem. Um, let me come alongside
S1: you and let's walk this journey together. And, you know,
S1: I've learned a couple things. Maybe through success, maybe through failure.
S1: But I'm going to share some things along the way.
S1: But let's walk side by side down this path. That tone,
S1: I think, really resonates with readers a lot. And you
S1: can still share your expertise. You can still tell your story,
S1: you can still address your topic, but it's framed in
S1: a different way that puts the reader first. Um, and
S1: so a mantra I think good nonfiction writers adopt is
S1: make it about them, make it about your readers, make
S1: it about serving them and forefronting their needs, their dreams,
S1: their hopes, their fears. And if you do that, a
S1: concept is going to resonate a lot more, and it's
S1: going to help you with the pacing of telling your story. And, uh, even,
S1: you know, in a memoir, I think this can be
S1: done really well. Where the bulk of memoirs is focused
S1: on the author, it's focused on their experiences. But whether
S1: implicitly or explicitly, they're giving the reader. Insights about their
S1: own lives. Again, they're expressing these inner desires and hopes
S1: that maybe the reader has never recognized in themselves, never
S1: been able to put words to. And so, yeah, that's
S1: the third leg. So.
S2: So by by concept, could you just give me a
S2: one sentence definition of what you mean when you say concept.
S1: Absolutely. I mean, very basically it's, um, what are you
S1: talking about and how will it help readers?
S2: Okay.
S1: And some would only give that first clause, you know. Yeah.
S1: What is this book about? Yeah. But including in your concept,
S1: how will it help readers, uh, looking through that lens? Specifically,
S1: I think is a great shift that writers can make.
S2: Yeah. I mean, you're talking about memoir. Sometimes I have
S2: to when I work with writers who've who've written memoir,
S2: we have to talk about the difference between autobiography and memoir.
S2: You know, for if you're Bono, everything you say is
S2: interesting because people are interested in it. Right. And so
S2: Bono says, I like I like to twist my Oreos apart.
S2: People say, whoa, Bono's is like me. He likes to
S2: twist his Oreos apart. And if Bono met the Pope,
S2: it's like, wow, Bono met the Pope. That's so interesting.
S2: You know who? Who knew? Yeah, but if you like
S2: to twist your ears apart. I'm not that interested, to
S2: tell you the truth. Sorry. But you know, it's just
S2: the truth. And, um. But the question then is, you know.
S2: Sometimes writers of of memoir don't quite get that. They
S2: think because it's something that happened to them, it was
S2: interesting to them. It'd be interesting to a reader. Yeah.
S2: Whereas as you said, the question is always, what does
S2: this mean? You know what? What does this mean to
S2: the reader? And um, and so your, your, your trip
S2: to the, to the ER recently, you know that, uh,
S2: I'm not I'm sorry you went to the ER, but
S2: you know, my question is what does this have, you know,
S2: what does this have to do with me.
S1: Yeah, exactly.
S2: Yeah.
S1: Yeah.
S2: One of the challenges, by the way, of of, uh,
S2: anytime anybody writes memoir related to medical questions is the
S2: fact that I was sick is one of the most
S2: important things that's ever happened to me. But if you're
S2: not the person who was sick, it's like, well, everybody
S2: gets sick. So what else do we have to say
S2: about that?
S1: So yeah, that's great. I had a colleague. She's this
S1: wonderful person and veteran editor. She did a deep dive
S1: into memoirs because they don't sell. Um, you know, this
S1: is through the publishing lens now. Yeah. And that's not
S1: to say memoirs aren't worth writing, but they're really tough
S1: to sell. And so she just. Yeah. Did a deep dive.
S1: And one of the things that emerged, one of the
S1: critiques of the memoir genre is that, um, exactly what
S1: you mentioned, a lot of people who are sick, they'll
S1: write about it. And so you you have all these
S1: cancer stories, you have all these, you know, tragedy stories.
S1: And it's not that they don't matter. It's just, yeah,
S1: it's very difficult to write a good book that's going
S1: to draw in readers about those things. And, um, that's tough.
S1: That's a tough pill to swallow because as you said,
S1: these experiences, I mean, they are earth shattering. They they
S1: shape us. Often God does a lot of work in
S1: our lives through them. You know, I have cancer that
S1: has touched my family in some very significant ways. And
S1: but yes, it's having that awareness, that reader awareness of
S1: what's truly going to help them. And so that's something
S1: we all have to wrestle with.
S2: Yeah. Well, before we run out of time, I do
S2: want to ask you about an idea that you wrote
S2: about on your Substack recently, and that is the difference
S2: between writing out of your wounds and writing out of scars. Mhm.
S2: Because I think, I mean, since we're, since we're talking
S2: about medical issues, um.
S1: Open it up.
S2: Uh, let's, uh, tell me about that idea as people again.
S2: I think a lot of people listen to this podcast
S2: are interested in writing memoir. Um, so let's talk about
S2: scars versus wounds.
S1: Absolutely. Well, I'll tell a quick story. I had a
S1: friend who was a pastor at a church and the
S1: church just blew up. The senior pastor, who was not
S1: my friend, had had fallen into quite a lot of trouble.
S1: I had made some pretty terrible decisions and quickly was
S1: taken out of leadership because of how the situation was handled.
S1: My friend felt he needed to resign out of integrity,
S1: so he just it was a whirlwind. Didn't see any
S1: of it coming. Uh, nothing. He hadn't caused any of
S1: it directly, but still, the fallout affected him. And so
S1: a publisher approached him and said, because this church was
S1: large and nationally known, they said, can you write a
S1: book about your experiences? Sort of an inside take on
S1: everything that's happened. And, uh, he was so disoriented. He
S1: said yes, very quickly, wrote the book, turned it in. Uh,
S1: it was essentially his family's income at the time because
S1: he had lost his job. And then it came time
S1: to start, you know, the marketing process and really rolling
S1: the book out to release it. And he felt this
S1: conviction within. I can't publish this. Uh, it's so raw.
S1: It's going to increase the hurt that people feel, the
S1: sense of betrayal they feel from what's happened. So he
S1: calls his publisher and he says, hey, I can't publish this.
S1: And they're furious. Like, really at this point after all
S1: of this? So they tell him, the only way we're
S1: going to let you out of this contract is if
S1: you pay back all of the advance, and that's it.
S1: So my friend knew it would drain his family's savings account.
S1: He has no contingency plan, but he ultimately pulls the book,
S1: and he pays back every penny of the advance, and
S1: he eats that. And, uh, I just I love that
S1: story because of not only his integrity, but he had
S1: the wherewithal to realize that. And the way he put
S1: it was as he read through the book, knowing this
S1: was about to be released, he said it read more
S1: like an angry diary entry than even a thoughtful critique.
S1: Write some books. There's a place for that of calling
S1: out the injustice, of contending for victims, things like that.
S1: But he realized this was not that. This was something else.
S1: And how do we distinguish between just an angry rant
S1: in a prophetic critique and the words that one of
S1: my colleagues used that I just immediately latched on to
S1: and have used is the problem arises when writers write
S1: out of the wound, not the scar. So that distinction,
S1: that distinction between wounds and scars I find super helpful.
S1: A a wound is still bleeding. It's fresh. And you know,
S1: the objection to all of this is, well, why are
S1: you censoring your emotion? You should pour that rage onto paper.
S1: You should not apologize. You should just get it out there.
S1: But that's why I find the image of a wound
S1: so helpful. And this is a little gross, but it
S1: makes the point. When someone has a gushing, leaking wound,
S1: you don't want to be anywhere near that. If you're
S1: a medical professional, you have gloves on a mask. You're
S1: protecting yourself from that. So yes, you can bleed onto
S1: the page, but and that's honest and raw. But it's
S1: quite unsettling as a reader to encounter that. Yeah. And
S1: so going back to the memoir example, uh, one of
S1: my colleagues was talking about this memoir that that she
S1: was editing, and this person's mother had passed away through
S1: a long, hard battle with some disease. And he just
S1: went into extreme detail about the tubes and bodily fluids
S1: and just far more than the reader needed to know,
S1: and was actually saying less about who his mother was
S1: then just the terrible, terrible situation she was in. And
S1: so that's an example that for a writer, it can
S1: feel cathartic. It can feel freeing to get that all
S1: onto the page. But it was still too fresh. Yeah.
S1: So the difference between a wound and a scar, the
S1: main one is time. Yeah.
S2: Well, as you said, I mean, write whatever you need
S2: to write for yourself. That doesn't mean it's it's for
S2: everybody else. And write out your wounds into your journal
S2: for sure.
S1: Yes. Yeah. There's a place where those wounds can live
S1: and help you process. In fact, maybe my friend would
S1: look at that first book draft he wrote and tending
S1: originally to publish it. But maybe that was a stepping
S1: stone on the journey toward writing something that would be
S1: more helpful to the general public. And that's what he
S1: ended up doing. So he published a second book a
S1: few years later after much counseling and time and healing
S1: and conversations and as much reconciliation as could be attained
S1: in that time frame, and he wrote a beautiful, I think,
S1: memoir about what he experienced. But that sharp edge, uh, is,
S1: is there in some ways, but it just reads differently
S1: because his wound had time to heal into a scar.
S1: And here's why I love this analogy. Scars. They're not pretty.
S1: So we're not talking about tying up your pain with
S1: a bow, or airbrushing your experience, or downplaying the injustice.
S1: What we're talking about is being able to describe it
S1: in a way that people can receive. And so Steve
S1: delves into this is the my friend who wrote the book.
S1: He delves into some of the most hurtful things that
S1: were said. He goes there and he tells those stories. um,
S1: with grace and truth. But again, it's not leaking anymore.
S1: And it's it's, uh, it's helpful, actually, to hear some
S1: of those behind the scenes stories and then to hear
S1: him reflect on what God has taught him through them
S1: and his own sin. That sort of has become more
S1: clear in the rear view as well. So it's just
S1: there's a big difference between wounds and scars. Yeah.
S2: Great. Thanks. Well, well, we better wrap this thing up,
S2: but I want to ask you my customary last question. Sure.
S2: And that is, who are the writers who make you
S2: want to write? Well.
S1: That's one of the hardest questions for me, because it
S1: feels like I should just give you a list of
S1: 50 names. But yeah, a couple folks that come to mind.
S1: One has been on the show, uh, Leif Enger.
S2: Um.
S1: So on the fiction side, his descriptions. Yeah. His dialogue.
S1: Just a master of the craft. Yeah. And when I
S1: read him, I'm just filled with envy, if I'm honest.
S1: It's just. How in the world do you do that
S1: on the page? And so I. I love his writing.
S2: Yeah, I do too.
S1: Another person would be Andy Crouch.
S2: Um.
S1: So as someone who has mixed feelings on technology and
S1: its impact on our lives, Andy's words cast a really
S1: beautiful vision. I think, of why we're here as Christians,
S1: what we're called to, and how to live lives of flourishing. Uh,
S1: I'd have to mention Eugene Peterson for the way he
S1: can do exactly what we're talking about. He just has
S1: this knack of naming the ache we feel and bringing
S1: truth and comfort. Uh, here's one that might surprise people.
S1: And I doubt anyone's mentioned there's a writer named Eddie Schlesner.
S2: Okay, I don't know. Eddie Schlesner.
S1: He is actually a copywriter.
S2: Huh.
S1: But he thinks deeply and writes stunningly about the human experience.
S1: So when people hear copywriter, they might think, oh, jeez, great,
S1: a marketing mind. But man, he is a thought leader
S1: for writers. And his book, Very Good Copy, which is
S1: tailored to copywriters, is really about how to capture the
S1: human experience in your writing.
S2: So, okay.
S1: I can't recommend his newsletter more highly. It's called very
S1: Good Copy. And maybe lastly, I'm I'm embarrassed to say,
S1: but I'm just starting to really dip into Wendell Berry. Oh, and.
S2: Um, good for you. You got a lot to look
S2: forward to.
S1: Uh, that's what everyone tells me. And and I, uh,
S1: I'm already captured by what I'm reading. Um, but I'm
S1: reading his book, Standing by Words. which is a collection
S1: of essays. And so I'm hopping on that train finally. Yeah,
S1: those are a few I have not yet. No, no.
S2: So good. You're going to love it.
S1: Yeah, I can't wait. Do you have a recommendation where
S1: I should start?
S2: Well, uh, a couple possibilities. One is to start with
S2: his short stories. That distant land is a great a
S2: great way to start. Um, but if you want to
S2: start with a novel, you know, it's Jaber Crowe. Is
S2: is Jaber Crowe and Hannah Colter are the the two
S2: that people usually start with. And, um, those are both
S2: just fantastic novels. I mean, it's all great, but.
S1: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. My wife just read Jaber Crowe
S1: and really enjoyed it.
S2: So yeah, it's I hope she's not going to open
S2: a barber shop. Um.
S1: I think we're safe.
S2: Yeah. Okay. Well, there's there's, uh, somebody in here in
S2: Nashville who, uh. Yeah. Opened a barber shop after he
S2: read Jaber Crowe, so that's fantastic. Yeah. All right, Will
S2: Parker Anderson, thanks so much for being here. It's been
S2: a pleasure.
S1: Yeah. Thank you Jonathan, I appreciate the work you do.
S1: And thanks for having me on.
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