WEBVTT - Will Parker Anderson Talks Publishing 0:00:02.320 --> 0:00:06.520 And so a mantra I think good nonfiction writers adopt 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:09.639 is make it about them. Make it about your readers. 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:15.160 Make it about serving them and forefronting their needs, their dreams, 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:18.600 their hopes, their fears. And if you do that, a 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:21.200 concept is going to resonate a lot more. 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:27.080 Welcome to the Habit podcast conversations with writers about writing. 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:31.639 I'm Jonathan Rogers. Your host, Will Parker Anderson, is a 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.560 senior editor at Waterbrook Multnomah, a division of random House publishing. 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:39.160 He's also the proprietor of a Substack called Writer's Circle, 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:41.480 in which he provides tips on the writing craft and 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:45.360 seeks to demystify the publishing industry. In this episode, Will 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:49.519 and I talk about the three legs of publishing platform, content, 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:53.479 and concept. Will Parker Anderson, I'm so glad to have 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:55.760 you on The Habit podcast. Thanks for being here. 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:58.560 Yeah, thanks for having me, I appreciate it. 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:01.860 Yeah. Um, as I was telling you right before we 0:01:01.860 --> 0:01:06.820 started recording, I have typically made it a practice not 0:01:06.819 --> 0:01:09.980 to talk about publishing on the Habit podcast. But, you know, 0:01:09.980 --> 0:01:11.580 I was looking at your Substack and saw some of 0:01:11.580 --> 0:01:13.780 the interesting things you had to say about publishing and decided, 0:01:14.060 --> 0:01:17.819 let's do publishing, let's talk about publishing. So, uh, editing 0:01:17.819 --> 0:01:22.140 and publishing, uh, you are an editor at, um, Waterbrook. 0:01:23.020 --> 0:01:25.020 That's right. Waterbrook and Multnomah. Yeah. 0:01:25.060 --> 0:01:28.060 Yeah. And you've just recently started a or maybe I 0:01:28.060 --> 0:01:31.819 should say, restarted a Substack, uh, called The Writer's Circle. 0:01:31.860 --> 0:01:32.780 Tell me about that. 0:01:34.180 --> 0:01:37.140 Absolutely. So in my day job, you know, I'm working 0:01:37.140 --> 0:01:41.260 with authors who mainly come to us through agents. And 0:01:41.260 --> 0:01:47.020 so they normally have established audiences and platforms. What's missing 0:01:47.020 --> 0:01:50.020 from my day job is getting to develop other writers 0:01:50.020 --> 0:01:55.540 and honestly, just rub elbows with other writers, something I love. Uh, people, 0:01:55.540 --> 0:01:58.540 when you're an editor, you know, people tend to approach 0:01:58.540 --> 0:02:01.520 you and have questions about how does this work? And 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:05.720 even yesterday I got a text from a friend saying, hey, 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:07.920 can you read my friend's book? That happens a lot. 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:09.799 So I just wanted to create a space that was 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:14.960 safe where there's no cool kids, there's no inside crowd. 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:17.480 Elite inner circle. That's this is why I call it 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.799 the writer's circle. But rather than who's in, who's out, 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:23.919 which is what publishing often feels like the writer's circle 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:26.480 is intended to be. Hey, let's huddle up. Let's get 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:29.760 in a circle and let's just talk about what we love, 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:33.880 which is writing. And so that that's what, you know, 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:36.680 it was born out of. And then also to sort 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.880 of demystify publishing, because it really is a hard nut 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:43.520 to crack for most of us. And so just offering 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:47.120 whatever I can to give people that next step or 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:50.760 that one encouragement that they need to keep going because 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.639 it is a long obedience in the same direction as 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:56.520 they say to publish your work. It's no joke. 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:01.570 Yeah, Well, let's start with the the matter of what 0:03:01.570 --> 0:03:02.690 editors are looking for. 0:03:04.570 --> 0:03:08.450 Sure. Yeah, that's a loaded question. I can really speak 0:03:08.450 --> 0:03:11.250 to the lane that I'm in, which is quite narrow, 0:03:11.290 --> 0:03:16.530 which is Christian adult non-fiction. Okay, so a bunch of 0:03:16.530 --> 0:03:18.730 listeners are already thinking, all right, well, I'm going to 0:03:18.730 --> 0:03:22.010 turn this off, but no, there's a lot of principles 0:03:22.010 --> 0:03:27.450 that carry across genres. So for you fiction people, uh, 0:03:27.810 --> 0:03:31.329 those folks who write children's books, a lot of this 0:03:31.330 --> 0:03:35.770 applies to them. But yeah, there's really three things that 0:03:36.010 --> 0:03:39.170 publishers are looking for. You'll hear this repeated in publishing 0:03:39.170 --> 0:03:42.930 rooms all over the place. And, uh, we describe it 0:03:42.930 --> 0:03:46.250 as a three legged table. And I think that concrete 0:03:46.250 --> 0:03:50.369 image is quite helpful. So for your writing to stand 0:03:50.610 --> 0:03:52.490 and for it to get out into the world, you 0:03:52.490 --> 0:03:56.490 really need these three legs of the table sturdy, or 0:03:56.490 --> 0:03:58.830 at least two of them sturdy. Maybe one can be 0:03:58.830 --> 0:04:01.670 a little shorter, you know, a slight wobble. But yeah, 0:04:01.670 --> 0:04:04.750 and the three are number one. I'll start with the 0:04:04.750 --> 0:04:08.590 dreaded word, which is, uh, platform. And and that's such 0:04:08.590 --> 0:04:14.390 a dirty word among true creatives. And trust me, I 0:04:14.550 --> 0:04:20.110 share that disdain, uh, for the social media, you know, 0:04:20.150 --> 0:04:25.470 put yourself. Be loud. Um, become this personality. Uh, a 0:04:25.510 --> 0:04:28.630 lot of us who are writers, we express ourselves on 0:04:28.630 --> 0:04:31.150 the page, and we're not interested in setting up a 0:04:31.150 --> 0:04:34.470 tripod and an iPhone and recording a reel that has 0:04:34.470 --> 0:04:39.030 zero appeal to us. Yeah, but publishing has just vastly 0:04:39.029 --> 0:04:44.790 changed with the advent of social media. And so where 0:04:44.830 --> 0:04:49.590 maybe 15, 20 years ago, a publisher really held most 0:04:49.589 --> 0:04:53.989 of the responsibility for platforming a writer. You could be 0:04:53.990 --> 0:04:57.010 a quote unquote no name Same writer, but if you 0:04:57.050 --> 0:05:00.570 were gifted and a publisher took your project on, you 0:05:00.570 --> 0:05:04.409 could find yourself in Barnes and Noble, placed right next 0:05:04.410 --> 0:05:07.210 to a best selling author who had sold millions of copies. 0:05:07.210 --> 0:05:09.970 And here you are, newly on the scene. So that 0:05:09.970 --> 0:05:13.169 kind of discoverability, it just doesn't work that way anymore 0:05:13.170 --> 0:05:17.490 because of largely social media. So when I say platform, 0:05:17.890 --> 0:05:20.089 it doesn't have to be social media, but we're just 0:05:20.089 --> 0:05:23.210 looking to see are people listening to what you have 0:05:23.210 --> 0:05:27.770 to say? And specifically on the topic or the idea 0:05:27.770 --> 0:05:32.410 that you're pitching to us. And so have you sort 0:05:32.410 --> 0:05:36.210 of created momentum around your ideas. And that could be 0:05:36.210 --> 0:05:39.690 social media, or it could be something like Substack. It 0:05:39.690 --> 0:05:43.089 could be, uh, a community that you're a part of, 0:05:43.089 --> 0:05:47.049 like the rabbit room, um, where there's lots of people 0:05:47.050 --> 0:05:49.490 accessing your writing. It can look a number of ways, 0:05:49.490 --> 0:05:53.770 but generally speaking, we're just looking to see if a 0:05:53.810 --> 0:05:57.750 writer has garnered some kind of a following, um, because 0:05:57.790 --> 0:05:59.310 at the end of the day. Oh, go ahead. 0:05:59.430 --> 0:06:01.070 I was going to say, is it a rude question 0:06:01.070 --> 0:06:02.549 to ask when you say some kind of a following? 0:06:02.589 --> 0:06:07.670 Are you talking hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands? Can you 0:06:07.670 --> 0:06:08.870 even put it in those terms? 0:06:09.589 --> 0:06:11.710 Yeah, that's the question people want to know. Is there 0:06:11.710 --> 0:06:15.670 a sort of a set metric that if I hit this, yeah, 0:06:15.710 --> 0:06:18.630 I'll get a book deal, and I have good news 0:06:18.630 --> 0:06:20.270 and bad news. I'll start with the bad news. No, 0:06:20.270 --> 0:06:22.870 there's no magic number. And we would love that kind 0:06:22.870 --> 0:06:27.510 of clarity and formula. But what's cool, I think what's 0:06:27.510 --> 0:06:32.150 encouraging is that I've seen book proposals where the author 0:06:32.150 --> 0:06:36.310 had hundreds of thousands of followers and we did not 0:06:36.350 --> 0:06:41.390 offer a contract. And then just recently, I was able 0:06:41.390 --> 0:06:48.510 to acquire this amazing project. The author had maybe 300 followers. And, 0:06:48.950 --> 0:06:51.950 you know, those are numbers. Most people would hear and think, okay, 0:06:51.950 --> 0:06:55.050 I could probably pull that off. Yeah, right. And the 0:06:55.050 --> 0:06:58.330 reason why it worked was his topic was it just 0:06:58.330 --> 0:07:02.089 tapped into something that a lot of people love, which 0:07:02.089 --> 0:07:05.450 is birding of all things. And so he was a 0:07:05.450 --> 0:07:09.169 fantastic writer. I can't give away too much because we 0:07:09.170 --> 0:07:12.570 haven't announced it, but I'll just say this person has 0:07:12.570 --> 0:07:16.730 some loose rabbit room affiliation, which is fun. And, um, 0:07:17.130 --> 0:07:19.530 you know, even the, uh, the artist we're bringing on 0:07:19.530 --> 0:07:23.650 has some connections, so. But that said, yes, there's no 0:07:23.690 --> 0:07:27.890 magic number, but we definitely are looking to see that 0:07:27.890 --> 0:07:30.210 people are coming to you for whatever it is that 0:07:30.210 --> 0:07:33.250 you're writing. So in this case, this author had started 0:07:33.250 --> 0:07:38.010 a website completely devoted to birding through a Christian lens. 0:07:38.490 --> 0:07:41.890 And we just love that. So that's the first leg 0:07:41.890 --> 0:07:45.250 of the table. The other two, I'm sorry. 0:07:46.050 --> 0:07:47.330 Before you move on to the to the other two 0:07:47.330 --> 0:07:49.010 legs of the table, I got a few more questions 0:07:49.010 --> 0:07:52.490 about platform. Like I said, we've we've got six years 0:07:52.490 --> 0:07:56.190 of of, uh, of of questions not asked about platform 0:07:56.190 --> 0:08:00.030 in this podcast. So you have to answer all of them. Um, the. 0:08:02.310 --> 0:08:08.710 Has how has Substack changed? I mean like two years 0:08:08.710 --> 0:08:12.270 ago platform it felt like, oh, we're talking about social media. 0:08:12.270 --> 0:08:15.590 And now it's now there's Substack seems to me something 0:08:15.590 --> 0:08:21.230 that's that's much more that writers are much more enthusiastic 0:08:21.270 --> 0:08:25.510 about than, as you said, reels or or I know 0:08:25.510 --> 0:08:26.790 I can't even think of the other ones are called 0:08:26.830 --> 0:08:29.990 TikTok and that kind of stuff. Yeah. Tell me about that. 0:08:30.030 --> 0:08:32.910 I mean, how how was that changed the way editors 0:08:32.910 --> 0:08:35.709 think about platform or has it. 0:08:37.230 --> 0:08:41.390 Yeah. Great question. I don't know that it's significantly changed 0:08:41.390 --> 0:08:45.270 the way publishers look at it or not. Um, and 0:08:45.309 --> 0:08:48.710 I'm newer to Substack. I'm a couple months in myself. 0:08:48.710 --> 0:08:53.560 But yeah, Substack definitely is geared more toward writers, but 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:57.480 I'm actually part of a Substack mastermind because I just 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:00.280 wanted to learn myself. What is this platform all about? 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:03.480 And the leader of that mastermind has said Substack. Actually, 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:06.679 they don't even view themselves as catering to writers, which 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:10.560 I found interesting, really intriguing. I would have said that's 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:14.720 absolutely what they're about, but they're actually their mission is 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:19.160 to help people earn an income based on their content 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:23.160 and whatever form that takes. And so they're introducing video 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:25.720 now and a lot of other things. And I'm hearing 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:27.760 the cries of lament from a lot of people who 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:29.520 have been on the platform like, oh, great, this is 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:33.040 going to look just like Instagram now or Facebook or something. 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:35.439 I think it's too early to tell, but from what 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:40.320 I've seen, there's definitely an appetite for longer form writing 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:44.400 on Substack, and it doesn't have that same doom scroll 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:48.880 depressive vibe of some of the other platforms. And I 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:53.220 really appreciate that. It's highly it's more interactive than even 0:09:53.220 --> 0:09:57.340 an email newsletter. And so one thing this is relevant, 0:09:57.340 --> 0:10:01.220 I think, that publishers look for is engagement. You can 0:10:01.220 --> 0:10:02.860 have all the followers in the world, but if no 0:10:02.860 --> 0:10:08.500 one's really consuming or interacting with your content, something's probably 0:10:08.500 --> 0:10:11.860 amiss there. You want to start a conversation with your writing. 0:10:11.860 --> 0:10:14.900 And so Substack has there's nothing like it that I 0:10:14.940 --> 0:10:19.179 found in terms of shareability. People can spread your ideas 0:10:19.179 --> 0:10:24.300 for you getting to interact through comments, direct messages, things 0:10:24.300 --> 0:10:27.100 like that. I think the platform is really well built 0:10:27.100 --> 0:10:31.260 to build community around ideas, which is exciting. 0:10:31.580 --> 0:10:35.700 Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, one thing that that seems to 0:10:35.700 --> 0:10:40.260 me is maybe different about Substack as compared to some 0:10:40.260 --> 0:10:46.459 of the other social media platforms, is that a thousand 0:10:46.460 --> 0:10:52.319 followers on Facebook and a thousand followers on Substack to me, 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:55.600 feel like two. Two very different things. You know, who 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:58.760 knows if if you're thousand people on on Facebook are 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.920 going to see what you have posted on Facebook. It 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.959 depends on some algorithms that I don't that nobody understands. 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:10.520 And on something like Substack, you can actually see, oh, 40% 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:16.680 of my readers open this email. You know, and so, uh, 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:18.960 it it just feels like a to me. It feels 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:21.200 like a the metrics feel different. 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:26.440 Absolutely. Yeah. One of the most powerful tools any writer 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:31.000 can have at their disposal today is an email address. Yeah. 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:34.920 Because number one, you know, we're not manipulating people on 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:38.839 Substack into giving us their email they've chosen to. And 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:41.600 they know that they will now receive your writing in 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:45.600 their inbox, which is already crowded. Um, but they're they're 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:50.580 desiring to give you their attention. And that is very significant. 0:11:50.580 --> 0:11:53.579 So you're right. Substacks it's a different mentality. When you 0:11:53.580 --> 0:11:57.420 subscribe to someone on Substack, you're expecting their content now 0:11:57.420 --> 0:12:01.380 to be delivered to you, whereas on another platform, really 0:12:01.380 --> 0:12:04.820 all you're agreeing to when you subscribe or follow someone is. 0:12:05.140 --> 0:12:09.780 I might peruse your feed once a year for 10s, 0:12:09.780 --> 0:12:13.300 and that's about it. So that's a huge distinguisher. I'm 0:12:13.300 --> 0:12:16.220 glad you brought that up, because what you can do 0:12:16.820 --> 0:12:20.420 is you can use that email list to not just 0:12:20.420 --> 0:12:23.780 share your posts, but as you have other things materializing, 0:12:23.780 --> 0:12:26.140 maybe you have a new project or a book that's 0:12:26.140 --> 0:12:29.580 coming out that you're self-publishing or whatever it is, and 0:12:29.580 --> 0:12:32.939 you can keep your audience in the loop. So Substack 0:12:32.940 --> 0:12:37.100 is not as sophisticated as some of the email subscription 0:12:37.100 --> 0:12:42.860 services like ConvertKit, right, or Beehive or MailChimp. So there's 0:12:42.860 --> 0:12:47.700 no optimizing, you know, or automating emails or things like that. 0:12:47.700 --> 0:12:51.560 But it's got enough tools that you can do a 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:53.800 lot more, which is nice. Yeah. 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:56.560 Yeah. All right. Well, thanks. I just wanted to. To 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:58.320 slow you down. Just a minute. Now you can move on. 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:02.280 Feel free to second leg of your three legged stool 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:02.800 or table. 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:04.680 Yeah. We're going to build this thing by the end. 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:09.160 We'll have it complete. Yes. So probably the most obvious 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:11.360 one I'll do this one second. So if the first 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:15.160 leg is platform, the second is content. And that really 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:19.440 refers to the quality of writing itself. And that may 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:23.600 seem overly obvious, but if I peel back the curtain 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.480 as an editor, I'll just tell you you'd be surprised 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:30.319 at the state of some of the manuscripts that come 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:35.480 to us. Um, both. Yeah. Level of writing and the 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:39.240 organization of the manuscript. And this is not bagging on 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:43.120 any author that I've worked with, but it's very difficult 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:47.000 to write a book. And so, you know, because there's 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:51.500 so much Preoccupation with platform and numbers of followers today. 0:13:52.059 --> 0:13:56.180 Writing can subtly slip to the back burner for a 0:13:56.179 --> 0:13:59.380 lot of people. Or you have influencers who will get 0:13:59.380 --> 0:14:02.340 book deals but who have never written really a word 0:14:02.340 --> 0:14:05.500 in their life. They've just talked to a camera, and 0:14:05.500 --> 0:14:09.860 that is a very new reality. So, um, every publisher 0:14:09.860 --> 0:14:13.939 is different. But yeah, at Waterbrook, we're certainly looking for 0:14:13.940 --> 0:14:18.340 those that are gifted writers. They have a fresh way 0:14:18.340 --> 0:14:23.220 of saying things. Uh, you know, they're a lot of 0:14:23.220 --> 0:14:27.540 writers are striving for total originality, something that's never been 0:14:27.540 --> 0:14:31.780 said before. And in the nonfiction world, that's really a 0:14:31.820 --> 0:14:36.500 fool's errand. You know, as Ecclesiastes says, there's nothing new 0:14:36.540 --> 0:14:40.940 under the sun. And so whenever a writer says, well, 0:14:40.940 --> 0:14:44.740 no one's ever written about this before, what I immediately 0:14:44.740 --> 0:14:47.460 think is, well, you just haven't done your homework, because 0:14:48.230 --> 0:14:51.510 probably tons of people have and they've probably done it 0:14:51.510 --> 0:14:56.190 really well. But what's amazing about modern publishing is that, 0:14:56.230 --> 0:15:01.030 you know, God raises up voices to say old truths 0:15:01.030 --> 0:15:06.190 in new ways. And he's also given you, as a writer, 0:15:06.470 --> 0:15:12.150 a unique experiences, perspectives. And he will use all of that, uh, 0:15:12.230 --> 0:15:17.790 to take your book and reach readers in this time in, 0:15:17.830 --> 0:15:20.750 you know, these, these places. And I find that quite beautiful. 0:15:21.630 --> 0:15:24.910 But yeah, we're looking for writers who know how to write. 0:15:24.950 --> 0:15:28.070 I mean, as elementary as that sounds. And people who 0:15:28.070 --> 0:15:32.110 have that gift, uh, as an editor, I'm, of course, 0:15:32.150 --> 0:15:35.110 evaluating how much work is this going to like? Is 0:15:35.110 --> 0:15:38.590 this going to be a delightful labor of love as 0:15:38.590 --> 0:15:41.430 I edit this, or am I going to have to? 0:15:41.510 --> 0:15:43.870 Is it going to be ten times the work because 0:15:43.870 --> 0:15:47.330 this writer hasn't mastered their craft yet? So we're definitely 0:15:47.330 --> 0:15:49.810 looking at that. And I think a community like the 0:15:49.810 --> 0:15:54.410 Rabbit Room, anytime I dip my toe into this community, 0:15:54.450 --> 0:15:56.570 I read an article or I listen to a lecture 0:15:56.570 --> 0:15:59.890 or something, I just feel like I get a fire 0:15:59.890 --> 0:16:07.210 hose of thoughtful, stretching, um, inspiring, challenging content. And so 0:16:07.370 --> 0:16:10.730 this is the type of place in a sort of superficial, 0:16:11.810 --> 0:16:14.530 you know, five second scrolling world if you really want 0:16:14.570 --> 0:16:18.770 to absorb, if you really want to grow, uh, go 0:16:18.770 --> 0:16:22.250 to Hutch, you know, listen to the podcast. And I'm 0:16:22.250 --> 0:16:25.330 preaching to the choir here, but, um, it's yeah, it's 0:16:25.330 --> 0:16:29.250 quite refreshing what this community has going on. And I 0:16:29.250 --> 0:16:32.210 would encourage people to spend as much time in these 0:16:32.250 --> 0:16:36.610 kind of communities and less time trying to, you know, 0:16:36.650 --> 0:16:40.370 shoot a viral reel. Uh, and again, for listeners who 0:16:40.370 --> 0:16:43.410 like being on camera and they're great oral communicators, that's awesome. 0:16:43.850 --> 0:16:46.950 Not downplaying that. But, uh, But in terms of craft, 0:16:46.950 --> 0:16:49.870 which is what we're talking about in writing. Yeah, definitely. 0:16:50.230 --> 0:16:52.230 Just spend as much time as you can with those 0:16:52.230 --> 0:16:53.990 who are better than you and who can speak into 0:16:53.990 --> 0:16:54.510 your writing. 0:16:54.510 --> 0:16:57.670 So yeah, well, one thing you pointed out that had 0:16:57.670 --> 0:17:00.430 never really I'd never really put it together. Uh, but 0:17:00.430 --> 0:17:06.190 this is in one of your, you know, Substack posts, letters. Um, 0:17:06.590 --> 0:17:12.390 you pointed out that that, uh, platform building and growing 0:17:12.430 --> 0:17:15.430 in craft don't have to be two different things, right? 0:17:15.470 --> 0:17:21.470 When you commit to a regular newsletter, for instance, that is, yes, 0:17:21.470 --> 0:17:24.909 a way to build a platform. And at the same time, 0:17:24.950 --> 0:17:26.670 it's it's the kind of thing that is building your 0:17:26.670 --> 0:17:32.510 craft in a way that shooting another Instagram reel doesn't. Yeah. 0:17:32.510 --> 0:17:33.590 So I appreciated that. 0:17:34.430 --> 0:17:38.189 No, absolutely. In fact, since launching my Substack, I needed 0:17:38.190 --> 0:17:41.270 a breather. So I had written a newsletter every year 0:17:41.590 --> 0:17:43.629 or every week, I mean, for the last year and 0:17:43.630 --> 0:17:45.490 a half. So I had a lot of content to 0:17:45.530 --> 0:17:47.449 pull from, and as I went to post some of 0:17:47.450 --> 0:17:50.250 those older ones, I'd open it up, I'd start reading, 0:17:50.250 --> 0:17:54.850 and I'd think, this isn't that great. And and I've 0:17:54.850 --> 0:17:57.050 written my whole life. So it's not that that I 0:17:57.050 --> 0:17:59.970 just started writing, but still I was like, this is 0:17:59.970 --> 0:18:01.890 I could do so much better. And so I'd edit 0:18:01.890 --> 0:18:03.649 and I'd change, and maybe that's the editor in me, 0:18:03.650 --> 0:18:05.970 but I think it yeah, just that discipline and that 0:18:05.970 --> 0:18:09.770 rhythm of writing, writing, writing, writing it does pay off, 0:18:09.850 --> 0:18:13.250 but it's silent and subtle, like the growth of a child, 0:18:13.250 --> 0:18:14.929 where you have to make those tick marks on a 0:18:14.930 --> 0:18:15.730 door frame. 0:18:15.930 --> 0:18:16.410 Yeah, right. 0:18:16.450 --> 0:18:19.210 You don't see them growing day to day. But as 0:18:19.210 --> 0:18:21.530 you have these metrics or these milestones, you can look 0:18:21.530 --> 0:18:25.650 back and see it. And so absolutely, in fact, I 0:18:25.650 --> 0:18:28.370 would liken it to the, the single person who really 0:18:28.369 --> 0:18:31.930 wants to meet their soulmate, so to speak. And the 0:18:31.930 --> 0:18:35.169 more you focus on it and obsess over it, uh, 0:18:35.250 --> 0:18:37.170 the worse of a person to go on a date 0:18:37.170 --> 0:18:39.730 with you will become. Yeah, right. You kind of just 0:18:39.730 --> 0:18:42.570 got to live your life. And, um, and I would 0:18:42.570 --> 0:18:47.070 say so as writers just right. And that platform that 0:18:47.070 --> 0:18:51.230 you want so badly. It may come. It may not. Yeah. Um, 0:18:51.270 --> 0:18:54.550 but if you're consistently putting content out there, that is 0:18:54.550 --> 0:18:58.230 the best that you can create and you're putting your 0:18:58.230 --> 0:19:01.429 whole heart into it, that's much more important than having 0:19:01.430 --> 0:19:05.910 a strategy. The strategy part, it matters. Having, you know, 0:19:05.950 --> 0:19:10.510 for instance, a a content calendar or something that you 0:19:10.510 --> 0:19:13.990 follow or just a number of posts you want to 0:19:13.990 --> 0:19:18.030 do each month, those are great goals, but people can 0:19:18.030 --> 0:19:23.790 get so lost and so discouraged. And the anonymity of 0:19:23.790 --> 0:19:28.470 the algorithm feeling lost in the rush that they neglect 0:19:28.470 --> 0:19:31.390 what really matters, which is their craft, and people will 0:19:31.390 --> 0:19:36.350 find good content. I believe, you know, uh, the cream 0:19:36.390 --> 0:19:38.629 eventually rises to the top, and it doesn't mean you 0:19:38.630 --> 0:19:42.189 don't put any effort into platform, but it certainly means 0:19:42.390 --> 0:19:44.610 you put effort into your writing? 0:19:45.290 --> 0:19:49.090 Well, I, I have found it. You know, I guess 0:19:49.090 --> 0:19:53.130 in 2018, I said I'm going to deliver a newsletter 0:19:53.130 --> 0:19:56.570 every week, which at the time I thought was kind 0:19:56.609 --> 0:19:58.250 of crazy because it was really hard for me. I 0:19:58.250 --> 0:19:59.930 was having a hard time hitting deadlines as it was. 0:19:59.970 --> 0:20:02.689 And then to commit to a weekly deadline. Uh, but 0:20:02.690 --> 0:20:05.690 it's been so good for me, for one thing, to 0:20:05.730 --> 0:20:09.930 have people expecting something. Yes. People who might be disappointed. 0:20:09.970 --> 0:20:11.409 I mean, I don't know if they would be, but 0:20:11.410 --> 0:20:13.129 I think they might be disappointed if they didn't get 0:20:13.130 --> 0:20:15.250 something from me on a Tuesday morning after they've been 0:20:15.290 --> 0:20:18.369 expecting it every Tuesday morning since, you know, for a 0:20:18.369 --> 0:20:22.969 long time. And, um, and as you said, just that act. 0:20:23.530 --> 0:20:27.010 It's meant so much to me as a writer, um, 0:20:27.330 --> 0:20:31.570 in a lot of different ways. Uh, there's the only strategy. 0:20:31.570 --> 0:20:33.690 The only plan was, I'm going to do this every week. 0:20:33.810 --> 0:20:36.290 And then over the course of that, you sort of discover, oh, 0:20:36.290 --> 0:20:37.810 here's what I need to be writing about. Here's what 0:20:37.810 --> 0:20:41.530 people respond to. Um, and, and you just get better 0:20:41.530 --> 0:20:45.139 at it as time goes on. And I think that 0:20:45.180 --> 0:20:48.100 that commitment to say I'm going to do something that 0:20:48.100 --> 0:20:52.619 people will expect and will be hopefully disappointed if I 0:20:52.619 --> 0:20:57.020 don't do it. Yes, I think that's that's a pretty 0:20:57.460 --> 0:21:02.619 important principle for platform building. That doesn't feel like the 0:21:02.619 --> 0:21:03.660 selling of one's soul. 0:21:04.700 --> 0:21:08.580 Absolutely. Yeah. I think the best advice on building platform 0:21:08.580 --> 0:21:11.500 that I've heard is do things that are life giving 0:21:11.540 --> 0:21:14.900 to you, not things that make your soul feel like 0:21:14.900 --> 0:21:19.619 you're trying to, you know, manipulate it into some mold. 0:21:19.940 --> 0:21:24.820 And so I'm the same way, Jonathan. Writing weekly has 0:21:24.820 --> 0:21:29.260 been amazing accountability, but it's so rewarding just to be 0:21:29.300 --> 0:21:34.340 able to share something every week and to to know 0:21:34.340 --> 0:21:37.820 that maybe in some way it's it's helping or inspiring 0:21:37.820 --> 0:21:42.399 someone and, uh, otherwise I think I can really build 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:45.320 up writing in my mind like it's an event. It's 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:48.000 this thing that I'm going to do when I finally 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:50.840 can get away from home. I got three young kids, 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:54.639 so it's like I'm going to rent a cabin somewhere 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.000 at some time, and it's all so ethereal that it 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.879 never actually happens. And so the reality, what it looks 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:04.639 like is, okay, I'm writing every week. I got to 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:07.920 get this done. So sometimes it's 11 p.m. I wrote 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:12.719 one newsletter literally in the air this year, um, sitting 0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:15.160 in the bed with an IV like, it's you just 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:17.560 you got to get it done. It's. Yeah, for me. 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:20.160 So you don't rent a cabin every week to write your, uh, 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:20.879 your thing? 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:25.480 I wish, I wish, but no. Nope. It's what, in 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:29.240 the those nooks and crannies. And I'm not super disciplined either. 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:32.240 Some of your listeners probably are. And they can lock 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:36.360 in that two hour writing session each week. For me, 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:40.160 it's sporadic, you know, it's midday, it's early morning, it's 0:22:40.300 --> 0:22:43.859 late at night. It's just whenever I can. And so, yeah, 0:22:43.859 --> 0:22:48.580 whatever works, you know, as long as you get it done. And, um, I, 0:22:48.980 --> 0:22:51.619 I feel really proud, as I'm sure you do, that 0:22:51.619 --> 0:22:57.540 I've been consistent and haven't missed a single newsletter. And 0:22:57.900 --> 0:23:01.620 so even though the process has been messy to get 0:23:01.619 --> 0:23:05.100 those out, I haven't missed one. And that's just a 0:23:05.100 --> 0:23:08.020 great that's something every writer, I think would love to 0:23:08.060 --> 0:23:11.380 look back on and be able to say, yeah, even 0:23:11.420 --> 0:23:14.180 though not every week was maybe my best work, I did. 0:23:14.220 --> 0:23:17.380 I gave my best. But life happened. But I I'm 0:23:17.380 --> 0:23:20.060 committed to this thing and and here we are. So. 0:23:20.460 --> 0:23:23.020 Well, I'm going to say one more one more thing about, uh, 0:23:23.020 --> 0:23:27.419 delivering something every week. And that is it helps. It 0:23:27.420 --> 0:23:29.820 has helped me let go of some of the preciousness 0:23:31.020 --> 0:23:35.460 of believing, like it's the the amount of time I 0:23:35.460 --> 0:23:38.180 spend on it and the amount of, of care I, 0:23:38.380 --> 0:23:42.399 I give. I mean, beyond a certain threshold. It doesn't 0:23:42.400 --> 0:23:46.760 seem to be related directly to how to how well 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:49.560 people respond to it. It's something that I've just sort 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:52.440 of like in the in the 11th hour just said, okay, 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:55.040 I got to get something out. Here it is. It's 0:23:55.040 --> 0:23:58.280 been really instructive to me to see how often that's 0:23:58.280 --> 0:24:02.960 what people respond to. Um, and it's helped me let 0:24:02.960 --> 0:24:05.920 go of some, some things and some need to be, 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:09.160 I mean, a certain amount of I'm not the kind 0:24:09.160 --> 0:24:11.240 of perfectionist that some people are, but but what little 0:24:11.240 --> 0:24:15.000 perfectionism I have had has gotten kind of gotten beaten 0:24:15.000 --> 0:24:18.840 out of me by, well, I say beaten up in 0:24:18.840 --> 0:24:21.159 some way. Just, yes, you know, beaten out of me 0:24:21.160 --> 0:24:25.800 because Tuesdays, Tuesdays just keep on coming. Yeah. But also 0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:28.560 in a much gentler way, just letting go of some 0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:31.639 things by saying, oh, this is not a function of, 0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:35.960 you know, of of how hard I work on this necessarily. Um, 0:24:36.480 --> 0:24:38.399 you know, I always say only God can make a 0:24:38.500 --> 0:24:41.500 tomato like you. You've got some work to grow. Tomatoes. 0:24:41.500 --> 0:24:44.260 There's some things I've got to do. But ultimately, it's 0:24:44.260 --> 0:24:47.300 God's job to make the tomato. I can weed, I can, 0:24:47.300 --> 0:24:48.219 I can plant. 0:24:48.820 --> 0:24:52.580 Yeah, yeah. That's that's so true. Another thing it's done 0:24:52.580 --> 0:24:56.740 for me writing consistently has been because I feel that 0:24:56.740 --> 0:24:59.899 pressure to make it the best I can. It's actually 0:24:59.900 --> 0:25:04.139 driven me toward other people for their feedback. And, you know, 0:25:04.180 --> 0:25:06.980 you sort of have that internal pebble in your shoe 0:25:06.980 --> 0:25:10.380 as a writer where you just know something's off. But 0:25:10.700 --> 0:25:13.379 but a lot of times it's on Friday evening and 0:25:13.380 --> 0:25:16.139 I send mine out Saturday mornings. So I'll go to 0:25:16.140 --> 0:25:18.780 my wife and I'll either read it aloud to her 0:25:19.180 --> 0:25:21.980 or I'll have her read it. And she's we think 0:25:21.980 --> 0:25:25.740 very differently and that's quite helpful. So, you know, she'll say, 0:25:26.100 --> 0:25:29.100 oh yeah, that doesn't make sense. Or I think your 0:25:29.100 --> 0:25:31.700 tone there, I know what you you mean or intend, 0:25:31.700 --> 0:25:34.140 but I think you should maybe dial that back or 0:25:34.140 --> 0:25:35.899 maybe turn up the volume and be a little bit 0:25:35.900 --> 0:25:39.000 more bold, get off the fence or whatever. And man, 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:42.359 that has been so helpful. Whereas to your point, when 0:25:42.359 --> 0:25:46.280 you view your writing as too precious, sometimes you hoard 0:25:46.280 --> 0:25:50.360 it to yourself and you don't let other people in. 0:25:50.400 --> 0:25:52.960 And that's not good for your writing either. So that'd 0:25:52.960 --> 0:25:55.040 be one other thing as we're talking that came to 0:25:55.080 --> 0:25:58.280 mind as I've shared my writing more than ever, I 0:25:58.280 --> 0:26:02.119 don't mean by publishing it, I mean by welcoming others 0:26:02.119 --> 0:26:07.280 into edit. And that's been another good muscle to develop 0:26:07.280 --> 0:26:10.280 creatively is not being afraid of what others have to say. 0:26:10.480 --> 0:26:14.720 So that's good. All right. We better keep moving. Third 0:26:14.720 --> 0:26:16.720 leg of the stool or the. That's right. 0:26:17.040 --> 0:26:19.920 Yes. And I already touched on this I think. But 0:26:19.920 --> 0:26:22.200 so you have the first leg is platform, the second 0:26:22.200 --> 0:26:26.719 is content. And then the third is your concept. And 0:26:26.720 --> 0:26:30.640 that's where I think we were getting into this idea 0:26:30.760 --> 0:26:34.240 that you don't have to put the pressure on your 0:26:34.240 --> 0:26:40.090 shoulders of a totally original, never seen before idea. And 0:26:40.090 --> 0:26:43.610 this goes for fiction writers, too, you know, sort of 0:26:43.650 --> 0:26:48.410 latent in your own storytelling and the worlds maybe that 0:26:48.410 --> 0:26:54.690 you create somewhere in there. Um, you're regurgitating, uh, those 0:26:54.690 --> 0:26:57.690 fiction writers that you love, even if it's just the 0:26:57.690 --> 0:27:01.890 techniques they use, the beat of the dialogue, um, the, 0:27:02.650 --> 0:27:05.929 the way of jumping into the action, whatever it is, 0:27:06.730 --> 0:27:09.649 all of that's flowing out. And that's not something we 0:27:09.650 --> 0:27:13.090 should shy away from or apologize for. We all stand 0:27:13.090 --> 0:27:16.690 on the shoulders of the literature that has come before, 0:27:16.890 --> 0:27:19.450 and I think it's actually a way of showing respect 0:27:19.450 --> 0:27:24.850 to those that have, uh, nourished our craft. So when 0:27:24.850 --> 0:27:29.810 I say publishers are looking for a fresh concept, really 0:27:29.810 --> 0:27:34.690 what that means, certainly in the nonfiction world is we're 0:27:34.690 --> 0:27:37.110 not looking as much to see. Is this writer telling 0:27:37.109 --> 0:27:42.030 us about themself or are they talking about a topic? 0:27:42.310 --> 0:27:46.910 Those are often, I think, reductionistic ways of describing what 0:27:46.910 --> 0:27:49.150 a book is. So if an author, if their only 0:27:49.150 --> 0:27:50.830 goal is like, well, I want to tell my story, 0:27:51.510 --> 0:27:53.990 or if their only goal is, well, I want to 0:27:53.990 --> 0:27:56.869 talk about this topic, that that's not actually a mission 0:27:57.750 --> 0:28:01.030 that can be cathartic to tell your story, and your 0:28:01.030 --> 0:28:05.109 story matters immensely. It's it's valuable as one created in 0:28:05.109 --> 0:28:08.230 God's image, and it may even bless people. But the 0:28:08.230 --> 0:28:12.149 minute you talk about not just writing something, but wanting 0:28:12.190 --> 0:28:15.270 to get paid to write it, and publishers having to 0:28:15.310 --> 0:28:17.669 pay to produce it and ship it to thousands of 0:28:17.670 --> 0:28:22.909 people suddenly now, um, a marketing angle. And this, this 0:28:22.910 --> 0:28:26.190 is going to sound slimy at first, but a marketing 0:28:26.230 --> 0:28:29.390 angle comes into play where now the question is, will 0:28:29.430 --> 0:28:32.830 people actually want to read this? And that is not 0:28:32.830 --> 0:28:39.810 an evil question. Uh, or a question that steamrolls, you know, creativity. Um, 0:28:39.930 --> 0:28:45.330 certainly the idea of will an audience come to this 0:28:45.330 --> 0:28:50.610 can be approached in a poorly. But at the heart 0:28:50.610 --> 0:28:53.090 of it, what we are looking for is, does this 0:28:53.090 --> 0:28:57.170 book address a felt need? Does it name an ache 0:28:57.810 --> 0:29:02.930 that readers feel? Does it unearth or articulate a problem 0:29:03.210 --> 0:29:06.050 that they experience, but they haven't quite been able to 0:29:06.090 --> 0:29:09.810 put language to it? But this book is their aha 0:29:09.850 --> 0:29:14.290 moment where they realize, oh yes, that's me. I need 0:29:14.330 --> 0:29:17.530 help here, I need direction, I need encouragement, I need 0:29:17.570 --> 0:29:21.570 guidance and a paradigm shift that's helpful when you're forming 0:29:21.570 --> 0:29:26.450 your concept. Is this, um, writers sometimes make the mistake 0:29:26.450 --> 0:29:30.610 of placing themselves as the hero of the story instead 0:29:30.610 --> 0:29:33.290 of making themselves the guide. And some will have heard 0:29:33.290 --> 0:29:37.510 this before. But rather than saying, you know, I have 0:29:37.510 --> 0:29:40.430 all the answers, listen to me, I'm the expert. And 0:29:40.470 --> 0:29:42.830 of course, as writers, we hope to come with knowledge 0:29:42.830 --> 0:29:47.190 and expertise, but instead it's to say to focus on 0:29:47.190 --> 0:29:50.110 the reader, to look them in the eye and say, okay, 0:29:50.150 --> 0:29:52.470 I know that you feel this, you struggle with this, 0:29:52.470 --> 0:29:55.950 or you have this problem. Um, let me come alongside 0:29:55.950 --> 0:29:59.790 you and let's walk this journey together. And, you know, 0:29:59.830 --> 0:30:03.190 I've learned a couple things. Maybe through success, maybe through failure. 0:30:03.310 --> 0:30:05.150 But I'm going to share some things along the way. 0:30:05.150 --> 0:30:09.709 But let's walk side by side down this path. That tone, 0:30:09.830 --> 0:30:13.830 I think, really resonates with readers a lot. And you 0:30:13.830 --> 0:30:18.230 can still share your expertise. You can still tell your story, 0:30:18.230 --> 0:30:21.870 you can still address your topic, but it's framed in 0:30:21.870 --> 0:30:25.550 a different way that puts the reader first. Um, and 0:30:25.550 --> 0:30:29.830 so a mantra I think good nonfiction writers adopt is 0:30:29.830 --> 0:30:32.950 make it about them, make it about your readers, make 0:30:32.950 --> 0:30:38.330 it about serving them and forefronting their needs, their dreams, 0:30:38.330 --> 0:30:41.770 their hopes, their fears. And if you do that, a 0:30:41.770 --> 0:30:45.810 concept is going to resonate a lot more, and it's 0:30:45.810 --> 0:30:50.530 going to help you with the pacing of telling your story. And, uh, even, 0:30:50.570 --> 0:30:52.729 you know, in a memoir, I think this can be 0:30:52.730 --> 0:30:56.930 done really well. Where the bulk of memoirs is focused 0:30:56.930 --> 0:31:01.330 on the author, it's focused on their experiences. But whether 0:31:01.370 --> 0:31:10.170 implicitly or explicitly, they're giving the reader. Insights about their 0:31:10.170 --> 0:31:16.770 own lives. Again, they're expressing these inner desires and hopes 0:31:16.770 --> 0:31:21.010 that maybe the reader has never recognized in themselves, never 0:31:21.010 --> 0:31:24.090 been able to put words to. And so, yeah, that's 0:31:24.090 --> 0:31:25.450 the third leg. So. 0:31:26.090 --> 0:31:29.610 So by by concept, could you just give me a 0:31:29.650 --> 0:31:32.310 one sentence definition of what you mean when you say concept. 0:31:33.150 --> 0:31:39.150 Absolutely. I mean, very basically it's, um, what are you 0:31:39.150 --> 0:31:42.110 talking about and how will it help readers? 0:31:42.150 --> 0:31:42.630 Okay. 0:31:42.830 --> 0:31:47.070 And some would only give that first clause, you know. Yeah. 0:31:47.110 --> 0:31:50.750 What is this book about? Yeah. But including in your concept, 0:31:50.790 --> 0:31:54.870 how will it help readers, uh, looking through that lens? Specifically, 0:31:55.350 --> 0:31:58.670 I think is a great shift that writers can make. 0:31:59.150 --> 0:32:02.230 Yeah. I mean, you're talking about memoir. Sometimes I have 0:32:02.230 --> 0:32:05.550 to when I work with writers who've who've written memoir, 0:32:05.550 --> 0:32:07.830 we have to talk about the difference between autobiography and memoir. 0:32:08.390 --> 0:32:11.830 You know, for if you're Bono, everything you say is 0:32:11.830 --> 0:32:15.150 interesting because people are interested in it. Right. And so 0:32:15.190 --> 0:32:18.510 Bono says, I like I like to twist my Oreos apart. 0:32:19.590 --> 0:32:21.750 People say, whoa, Bono's is like me. He likes to 0:32:21.750 --> 0:32:25.030 twist his Oreos apart. And if Bono met the Pope, 0:32:25.030 --> 0:32:27.590 it's like, wow, Bono met the Pope. That's so interesting. 0:32:27.630 --> 0:32:30.990 You know who? Who knew? Yeah, but if you like 0:32:30.990 --> 0:32:33.360 to twist your ears apart. I'm not that interested, to 0:32:33.360 --> 0:32:36.120 tell you the truth. Sorry. But you know, it's just 0:32:36.120 --> 0:32:40.400 the truth. And, um. But the question then is, you know. 0:32:42.440 --> 0:32:47.720 Sometimes writers of of memoir don't quite get that. They 0:32:47.720 --> 0:32:49.360 think because it's something that happened to them, it was 0:32:49.360 --> 0:32:51.720 interesting to them. It'd be interesting to a reader. Yeah. 0:32:51.720 --> 0:32:53.720 Whereas as you said, the question is always, what does 0:32:53.720 --> 0:32:56.719 this mean? You know what? What does this mean to 0:32:56.760 --> 0:33:01.360 the reader? And um, and so your, your, your trip 0:33:01.360 --> 0:33:06.080 to the, to the ER recently, you know that, uh, 0:33:07.520 --> 0:33:10.640 I'm not I'm sorry you went to the ER, but 0:33:10.680 --> 0:33:12.840 you know, my question is what does this have, you know, 0:33:12.880 --> 0:33:14.160 what does this have to do with me. 0:33:14.920 --> 0:33:15.920 Yeah, exactly. 0:33:16.040 --> 0:33:16.440 Yeah. 0:33:16.760 --> 0:33:17.240 Yeah. 0:33:17.840 --> 0:33:20.160 One of the challenges, by the way, of of, uh, 0:33:20.360 --> 0:33:25.160 anytime anybody writes memoir related to medical questions is the 0:33:25.160 --> 0:33:26.360 fact that I was sick is one of the most 0:33:26.360 --> 0:33:28.920 important things that's ever happened to me. But if you're 0:33:28.920 --> 0:33:31.660 not the person who was sick, it's like, well, everybody 0:33:31.660 --> 0:33:33.620 gets sick. So what else do we have to say 0:33:33.620 --> 0:33:34.459 about that? 0:33:34.500 --> 0:33:38.300 So yeah, that's great. I had a colleague. She's this 0:33:38.660 --> 0:33:42.100 wonderful person and veteran editor. She did a deep dive 0:33:42.100 --> 0:33:45.900 into memoirs because they don't sell. Um, you know, this 0:33:45.900 --> 0:33:48.580 is through the publishing lens now. Yeah. And that's not 0:33:48.580 --> 0:33:51.500 to say memoirs aren't worth writing, but they're really tough 0:33:51.500 --> 0:33:54.540 to sell. And so she just. Yeah. Did a deep dive. 0:33:54.540 --> 0:33:57.100 And one of the things that emerged, one of the 0:33:57.100 --> 0:34:01.580 critiques of the memoir genre is that, um, exactly what 0:34:01.580 --> 0:34:04.260 you mentioned, a lot of people who are sick, they'll 0:34:04.260 --> 0:34:06.780 write about it. And so you you have all these 0:34:06.780 --> 0:34:10.180 cancer stories, you have all these, you know, tragedy stories. 0:34:10.420 --> 0:34:13.300 And it's not that they don't matter. It's just, yeah, 0:34:13.300 --> 0:34:16.859 it's very difficult to write a good book that's going 0:34:16.900 --> 0:34:21.500 to draw in readers about those things. And, um, that's tough. 0:34:21.540 --> 0:34:24.380 That's a tough pill to swallow because as you said, 0:34:24.380 --> 0:34:28.899 these experiences, I mean, they are earth shattering. They they 0:34:28.900 --> 0:34:31.879 shape us. Often God does a lot of work in 0:34:31.880 --> 0:34:35.239 our lives through them. You know, I have cancer that 0:34:35.239 --> 0:34:38.280 has touched my family in some very significant ways. And 0:34:38.880 --> 0:34:42.560 but yes, it's having that awareness, that reader awareness of 0:34:43.320 --> 0:34:46.120 what's truly going to help them. And so that's something 0:34:46.120 --> 0:34:47.320 we all have to wrestle with. 0:34:47.520 --> 0:34:50.080 Yeah. Well, before we run out of time, I do 0:34:50.080 --> 0:34:52.560 want to ask you about an idea that you wrote 0:34:52.560 --> 0:34:55.320 about on your Substack recently, and that is the difference 0:34:55.320 --> 0:34:59.520 between writing out of your wounds and writing out of scars. Mhm. 0:34:59.560 --> 0:35:01.359 Because I think, I mean, since we're, since we're talking 0:35:01.360 --> 0:35:03.200 about medical issues, um. 0:35:04.640 --> 0:35:05.279 Open it up. 0:35:05.920 --> 0:35:12.200 Uh, let's, uh, tell me about that idea as people again. 0:35:13.160 --> 0:35:14.760 I think a lot of people listen to this podcast 0:35:14.760 --> 0:35:18.279 are interested in writing memoir. Um, so let's talk about 0:35:18.280 --> 0:35:19.680 scars versus wounds. 0:35:21.120 --> 0:35:24.160 Absolutely. Well, I'll tell a quick story. I had a 0:35:24.160 --> 0:35:29.460 friend who was a pastor at a church and the 0:35:29.460 --> 0:35:32.219 church just blew up. The senior pastor, who was not 0:35:32.219 --> 0:35:35.540 my friend, had had fallen into quite a lot of trouble. 0:35:36.020 --> 0:35:40.780 I had made some pretty terrible decisions and quickly was 0:35:40.780 --> 0:35:45.100 taken out of leadership because of how the situation was handled. 0:35:45.100 --> 0:35:48.540 My friend felt he needed to resign out of integrity, 0:35:49.020 --> 0:35:51.379 so he just it was a whirlwind. Didn't see any 0:35:51.380 --> 0:35:54.900 of it coming. Uh, nothing. He hadn't caused any of 0:35:54.900 --> 0:35:57.980 it directly, but still, the fallout affected him. And so 0:35:58.140 --> 0:36:02.340 a publisher approached him and said, because this church was 0:36:02.460 --> 0:36:05.980 large and nationally known, they said, can you write a 0:36:05.980 --> 0:36:10.140 book about your experiences? Sort of an inside take on 0:36:10.140 --> 0:36:13.940 everything that's happened. And, uh, he was so disoriented. He 0:36:13.940 --> 0:36:19.380 said yes, very quickly, wrote the book, turned it in. Uh, 0:36:19.739 --> 0:36:22.780 it was essentially his family's income at the time because 0:36:22.780 --> 0:36:26.580 he had lost his job. And then it came time 0:36:26.580 --> 0:36:30.640 to start, you know, the marketing process and really rolling 0:36:30.640 --> 0:36:34.480 the book out to release it. And he felt this 0:36:34.480 --> 0:36:39.240 conviction within. I can't publish this. Uh, it's so raw. 0:36:39.440 --> 0:36:43.480 It's going to increase the hurt that people feel, the 0:36:43.480 --> 0:36:46.520 sense of betrayal they feel from what's happened. So he 0:36:46.520 --> 0:36:49.760 calls his publisher and he says, hey, I can't publish this. 0:36:50.440 --> 0:36:54.520 And they're furious. Like, really at this point after all 0:36:54.520 --> 0:36:57.680 of this? So they tell him, the only way we're 0:36:57.680 --> 0:36:59.160 going to let you out of this contract is if 0:36:59.200 --> 0:37:02.959 you pay back all of the advance, and that's it. 0:37:03.000 --> 0:37:07.880 So my friend knew it would drain his family's savings account. 0:37:07.920 --> 0:37:12.480 He has no contingency plan, but he ultimately pulls the book, 0:37:12.520 --> 0:37:15.359 and he pays back every penny of the advance, and 0:37:15.360 --> 0:37:19.600 he eats that. And, uh, I just I love that 0:37:19.600 --> 0:37:23.640 story because of not only his integrity, but he had 0:37:23.640 --> 0:37:26.480 the wherewithal to realize that. And the way he put 0:37:26.480 --> 0:37:28.739 it was as he read through the book, knowing this 0:37:28.739 --> 0:37:30.899 was about to be released, he said it read more 0:37:30.900 --> 0:37:35.660 like an angry diary entry than even a thoughtful critique. 0:37:35.700 --> 0:37:38.340 Write some books. There's a place for that of calling 0:37:38.340 --> 0:37:43.820 out the injustice, of contending for victims, things like that. 0:37:44.420 --> 0:37:46.780 But he realized this was not that. This was something else. 0:37:46.820 --> 0:37:51.859 And how do we distinguish between just an angry rant 0:37:52.340 --> 0:37:57.420 in a prophetic critique and the words that one of 0:37:57.420 --> 0:38:00.540 my colleagues used that I just immediately latched on to 0:38:00.580 --> 0:38:05.020 and have used is the problem arises when writers write 0:38:05.060 --> 0:38:09.260 out of the wound, not the scar. So that distinction, 0:38:09.300 --> 0:38:13.580 that distinction between wounds and scars I find super helpful. 0:38:13.620 --> 0:38:20.060 A a wound is still bleeding. It's fresh. And you know, 0:38:20.100 --> 0:38:23.020 the objection to all of this is, well, why are 0:38:23.020 --> 0:38:27.910 you censoring your emotion? You should pour that rage onto paper. 0:38:27.910 --> 0:38:31.030 You should not apologize. You should just get it out there. 0:38:31.870 --> 0:38:33.709 But that's why I find the image of a wound 0:38:33.710 --> 0:38:36.310 so helpful. And this is a little gross, but it 0:38:36.310 --> 0:38:40.070 makes the point. When someone has a gushing, leaking wound, 0:38:40.070 --> 0:38:42.469 you don't want to be anywhere near that. If you're 0:38:42.469 --> 0:38:46.430 a medical professional, you have gloves on a mask. You're 0:38:46.430 --> 0:38:49.709 protecting yourself from that. So yes, you can bleed onto 0:38:49.710 --> 0:38:52.910 the page, but and that's honest and raw. But it's 0:38:52.910 --> 0:38:56.790 quite unsettling as a reader to encounter that. Yeah. And 0:38:56.790 --> 0:38:59.670 so going back to the memoir example, uh, one of 0:38:59.670 --> 0:39:02.989 my colleagues was talking about this memoir that that she 0:39:02.989 --> 0:39:05.910 was editing, and this person's mother had passed away through 0:39:05.910 --> 0:39:10.149 a long, hard battle with some disease. And he just 0:39:10.150 --> 0:39:16.430 went into extreme detail about the tubes and bodily fluids 0:39:16.430 --> 0:39:19.870 and just far more than the reader needed to know, 0:39:20.550 --> 0:39:24.430 and was actually saying less about who his mother was 0:39:24.850 --> 0:39:29.810 then just the terrible, terrible situation she was in. And 0:39:29.810 --> 0:39:33.410 so that's an example that for a writer, it can 0:39:33.410 --> 0:39:35.890 feel cathartic. It can feel freeing to get that all 0:39:35.890 --> 0:39:40.410 onto the page. But it was still too fresh. Yeah. 0:39:40.450 --> 0:39:44.089 So the difference between a wound and a scar, the 0:39:44.090 --> 0:39:46.010 main one is time. Yeah. 0:39:46.890 --> 0:39:49.529 Well, as you said, I mean, write whatever you need 0:39:49.530 --> 0:39:52.930 to write for yourself. That doesn't mean it's it's for 0:39:52.930 --> 0:39:56.330 everybody else. And write out your wounds into your journal 0:39:56.330 --> 0:39:56.890 for sure. 0:39:57.290 --> 0:40:00.770 Yes. Yeah. There's a place where those wounds can live 0:40:01.170 --> 0:40:04.810 and help you process. In fact, maybe my friend would 0:40:04.810 --> 0:40:07.530 look at that first book draft he wrote and tending 0:40:07.570 --> 0:40:10.770 originally to publish it. But maybe that was a stepping 0:40:10.770 --> 0:40:15.129 stone on the journey toward writing something that would be 0:40:15.130 --> 0:40:18.250 more helpful to the general public. And that's what he 0:40:18.250 --> 0:40:22.210 ended up doing. So he published a second book a 0:40:22.210 --> 0:40:28.469 few years later after much counseling and time and healing 0:40:28.469 --> 0:40:32.670 and conversations and as much reconciliation as could be attained 0:40:32.670 --> 0:40:37.310 in that time frame, and he wrote a beautiful, I think, 0:40:37.310 --> 0:40:44.750 memoir about what he experienced. But that sharp edge, uh, is, 0:40:45.390 --> 0:40:48.469 is there in some ways, but it just reads differently 0:40:48.469 --> 0:40:52.030 because his wound had time to heal into a scar. 0:40:52.070 --> 0:40:56.310 And here's why I love this analogy. Scars. They're not pretty. 0:40:57.030 --> 0:40:59.590 So we're not talking about tying up your pain with 0:40:59.590 --> 0:41:05.270 a bow, or airbrushing your experience, or downplaying the injustice. 0:41:05.630 --> 0:41:08.469 What we're talking about is being able to describe it 0:41:08.469 --> 0:41:12.509 in a way that people can receive. And so Steve 0:41:12.830 --> 0:41:15.750 delves into this is the my friend who wrote the book. 0:41:15.870 --> 0:41:19.950 He delves into some of the most hurtful things that 0:41:19.950 --> 0:41:24.009 were said. He goes there and he tells those stories. um, 0:41:24.170 --> 0:41:29.450 with grace and truth. But again, it's not leaking anymore. 0:41:29.450 --> 0:41:33.210 And it's it's, uh, it's helpful, actually, to hear some 0:41:33.210 --> 0:41:36.250 of those behind the scenes stories and then to hear 0:41:36.250 --> 0:41:40.529 him reflect on what God has taught him through them 0:41:40.530 --> 0:41:44.330 and his own sin. That sort of has become more 0:41:44.330 --> 0:41:47.290 clear in the rear view as well. So it's just 0:41:47.330 --> 0:41:50.690 there's a big difference between wounds and scars. Yeah. 0:41:51.130 --> 0:41:52.930 Great. Thanks. Well, well, we better wrap this thing up, 0:41:52.930 --> 0:41:56.129 but I want to ask you my customary last question. Sure. 0:41:56.130 --> 0:41:57.850 And that is, who are the writers who make you 0:41:57.850 --> 0:41:58.810 want to write? Well. 0:42:00.250 --> 0:42:04.370 That's one of the hardest questions for me, because it 0:42:04.410 --> 0:42:06.690 feels like I should just give you a list of 0:42:06.690 --> 0:42:11.690 50 names. But yeah, a couple folks that come to mind. 0:42:12.010 --> 0:42:14.450 One has been on the show, uh, Leif Enger. 0:42:14.890 --> 0:42:15.489 Um. 0:42:15.890 --> 0:42:22.090 So on the fiction side, his descriptions. Yeah. His dialogue. 0:42:23.310 --> 0:42:27.190 Just a master of the craft. Yeah. And when I 0:42:27.190 --> 0:42:29.790 read him, I'm just filled with envy, if I'm honest. 0:42:29.950 --> 0:42:32.629 It's just. How in the world do you do that 0:42:32.630 --> 0:42:36.029 on the page? And so I. I love his writing. 0:42:36.270 --> 0:42:37.030 Yeah, I do too. 0:42:37.550 --> 0:42:40.190 Another person would be Andy Crouch. 0:42:40.510 --> 0:42:40.910 Um. 0:42:41.630 --> 0:42:45.149 So as someone who has mixed feelings on technology and 0:42:45.150 --> 0:42:49.509 its impact on our lives, Andy's words cast a really 0:42:49.510 --> 0:42:54.510 beautiful vision. I think, of why we're here as Christians, 0:42:54.590 --> 0:42:59.550 what we're called to, and how to live lives of flourishing. Uh, 0:42:59.550 --> 0:43:03.750 I'd have to mention Eugene Peterson for the way he 0:43:03.750 --> 0:43:06.230 can do exactly what we're talking about. He just has 0:43:06.230 --> 0:43:10.110 this knack of naming the ache we feel and bringing 0:43:10.150 --> 0:43:15.710 truth and comfort. Uh, here's one that might surprise people. 0:43:15.710 --> 0:43:19.870 And I doubt anyone's mentioned there's a writer named Eddie Schlesner. 0:43:20.230 --> 0:43:21.890 Okay, I don't know. Eddie Schlesner. 0:43:22.250 --> 0:43:24.370 He is actually a copywriter. 0:43:24.770 --> 0:43:25.090 Huh. 0:43:25.610 --> 0:43:30.570 But he thinks deeply and writes stunningly about the human experience. 0:43:30.570 --> 0:43:34.009 So when people hear copywriter, they might think, oh, jeez, great, 0:43:34.010 --> 0:43:40.330 a marketing mind. But man, he is a thought leader 0:43:40.330 --> 0:43:44.890 for writers. And his book, Very Good Copy, which is 0:43:44.890 --> 0:43:48.609 tailored to copywriters, is really about how to capture the 0:43:48.610 --> 0:43:51.290 human experience in your writing. 0:43:51.290 --> 0:43:52.450 So, okay. 0:43:52.489 --> 0:43:57.050 I can't recommend his newsletter more highly. It's called very 0:43:57.050 --> 0:44:03.330 Good Copy. And maybe lastly, I'm I'm embarrassed to say, 0:44:03.330 --> 0:44:08.370 but I'm just starting to really dip into Wendell Berry. Oh, and. 0:44:08.690 --> 0:44:10.410 Um, good for you. You got a lot to look 0:44:10.410 --> 0:44:10.970 forward to. 0:44:11.370 --> 0:44:14.370 Uh, that's what everyone tells me. And and I, uh, 0:44:14.370 --> 0:44:18.170 I'm already captured by what I'm reading. Um, but I'm 0:44:18.170 --> 0:44:22.300 reading his book, Standing by Words. which is a collection 0:44:22.300 --> 0:44:26.980 of essays. And so I'm hopping on that train finally. Yeah, 0:44:27.020 --> 0:44:30.940 those are a few I have not yet. No, no. 0:44:30.980 --> 0:44:32.339 So good. You're going to love it. 0:44:32.820 --> 0:44:34.940 Yeah, I can't wait. Do you have a recommendation where 0:44:34.940 --> 0:44:35.740 I should start? 0:44:36.020 --> 0:44:41.060 Well, uh, a couple possibilities. One is to start with 0:44:41.060 --> 0:44:44.580 his short stories. That distant land is a great a 0:44:44.580 --> 0:44:47.140 great way to start. Um, but if you want to 0:44:47.140 --> 0:44:51.140 start with a novel, you know, it's Jaber Crowe. Is 0:44:51.180 --> 0:44:54.660 is Jaber Crowe and Hannah Colter are the the two 0:44:54.700 --> 0:44:58.580 that people usually start with. And, um, those are both 0:44:58.580 --> 0:45:02.420 just fantastic novels. I mean, it's all great, but. 0:45:02.900 --> 0:45:05.700 Yeah. Yeah. That's great. My wife just read Jaber Crowe 0:45:05.700 --> 0:45:06.859 and really enjoyed it. 0:45:06.860 --> 0:45:09.700 So yeah, it's I hope she's not going to open 0:45:09.700 --> 0:45:11.340 a barber shop. Um. 0:45:12.219 --> 0:45:13.219 I think we're safe. 0:45:13.260 --> 0:45:15.779 Yeah. Okay. Well, there's there's, uh, somebody in here in 0:45:15.780 --> 0:45:17.900 Nashville who, uh. Yeah. Opened a barber shop after he 0:45:17.900 --> 0:45:21.480 read Jaber Crowe, so that's fantastic. Yeah. All right, Will 0:45:21.480 --> 0:45:23.200 Parker Anderson, thanks so much for being here. It's been 0:45:23.200 --> 0:45:23.720 a pleasure. 0:45:24.400 --> 0:45:26.840 Yeah. Thank you Jonathan, I appreciate the work you do. 0:45:26.880 --> 0:45:28.520 And thanks for having me on. 0:45:28.760 --> 0:45:33.279 Thanks. The habit podcast is brought to you by the 0:45:33.280 --> 0:45:37.360 Rabbit Room, where art nourishes community, and community nourishes art. 0:45:37.600 --> 0:45:40.640 You can support their work including this podcast, by becoming 0:45:40.640 --> 0:45:46.920 a member. Visit COVID-19. Special thanks as well to Taylor 0:45:46.920 --> 0:45:49.400 Leonard for letting us use her song diamonds as the 0:45:49.400 --> 0:45:52.279 theme music for The Habit podcast. You can learn more 0:45:52.280 --> 0:45:57.120 about Taylor and follow her work at Taylor Comm. The 0:45:57.120 --> 0:46:00.520 Habit Membership is a library of resources for writers by me, 0:46:00.520 --> 0:46:03.759 Jonathan Rogers. More importantly, the habit is a hub of 0:46:03.760 --> 0:46:06.920 community where like minded writers gather to discuss their work 0:46:06.920 --> 0:46:09.759 and give each other a little more courage. Find out 0:46:09.760 --> 0:46:10.920 more at the habit.