WEBVTT - Judith McQuoid on CS Lewis's Irish Childhood 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:06.800 I learned that my identity is not in what what 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:09.000 happens with what comes out at the end of my pen, 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:13.360 but is actually in my ability to sit back and 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:17.799 listen to it. And if I just follow that, if 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:22.160 I could just not forget to do that, you know, 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:25.480 because it's so easy to forget to do that, I think. 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:30.920 Welcome to the Habit podcast conversations with writers about Writing. 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:35.720 I'm Jonathan Rogers, your host, Judith McQuoid, lives in Belfast, 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:39.239 Northern Ireland, the hometown of C.S. Lewis, or Jax as 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:42.479 he was known when he lived there. Inspired by Belfast, 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:45.400 her love of Lewis and her own family. History. Judith 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:47.919 wrote a middle grade novel about young Jax Lewis and 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:50.839 an imagined friendship with a boy from a very different background. 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:54.080 It's a book about creativity, friendship, and the ways we 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:55.960 can give one another a little more courage and a 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:58.520 little more hope. It was my pleasure to talk to 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:04.070 Judith McQuoid about her new novel, giant. Judith McQuoid, I'm 0:01:04.069 --> 0:01:05.750 so glad to have you on The Habit podcast. Thanks 0:01:05.750 --> 0:01:06.510 for being here. 0:01:07.069 --> 0:01:08.230 Thanks for having me, Jonathan. 0:01:08.950 --> 0:01:12.430 Um, so your new book is giant. 0:01:13.470 --> 0:01:13.870 That's right. 0:01:13.910 --> 0:01:14.670 Tell me about it. 0:01:16.150 --> 0:01:19.910 Yeah. So, um, it's set in Belfast in the years 0:01:19.950 --> 0:01:25.950 1908 to 1910. And it's about two boys growing up 0:01:25.950 --> 0:01:29.950 in Belfast, um, who were kind of thrown together. Um, 0:01:29.990 --> 0:01:32.670 Davey is a shipyard boy. Uh, so from a working 0:01:32.670 --> 0:01:36.750 class background, um, um, it's the story of his imagined 0:01:36.750 --> 0:01:40.069 friendship with the young C.S. Lewis, who back then and 0:01:40.150 --> 0:01:45.590 actually still now in Belfast, is was known as Jack's. Um. 0:01:46.830 --> 0:01:48.590 I still call him Jack's. 0:01:48.870 --> 0:01:51.710 They do? Yeah. They will correct you if you call 0:01:51.710 --> 0:01:54.710 him Jack. They will correct you and say, no, no, 0:01:54.870 --> 0:01:55.870 he's Jack's. 0:01:55.910 --> 0:01:56.470 Really? 0:01:56.820 --> 0:01:57.340 Yeah. 0:01:57.580 --> 0:02:01.220 So, um, you've you've been in Belfast most of your life. 0:02:01.220 --> 0:02:02.340 Is that fair to say? 0:02:03.540 --> 0:02:08.019 Uh, no, probably not actually. Um, we lived in Northern 0:02:08.020 --> 0:02:10.140 Ireland till I was seven, and then we moved to 0:02:10.180 --> 0:02:14.420 the States for seven years, and then we moved to England. Um, 0:02:14.460 --> 0:02:18.380 I came back here to go to university, um, but 0:02:18.380 --> 0:02:22.020 then moved back to England, and we only permanently moved 0:02:22.020 --> 0:02:24.220 back to Northern Ireland in 2011. 0:02:24.419 --> 0:02:29.139 Oh, okay. All right. So have you noticed a difference in, um, 0:02:29.380 --> 0:02:32.579 I mean, I've heard that that people in the UK 0:02:32.620 --> 0:02:37.060 aren't as interested in C.S. Lewis as Americans. Right. Have 0:02:37.060 --> 0:02:40.220 you noticed an increased interest in C.S. Lewis in in 0:02:40.260 --> 0:02:42.900 Belfast in the since you've been there? 0:02:42.940 --> 0:02:48.139 Yeah. Yeah. There was um. So what date would that 0:02:48.139 --> 0:02:53.299 have been? There was an anniversary, probably of his birth. Uh, 0:02:53.300 --> 0:02:55.930 that was. Well, that would have been In 1998. So 0:02:55.970 --> 0:02:58.730 since about 1998, there has been a little bit of 0:02:58.730 --> 0:03:03.010 an increase, um, in interest. Uh, still not enough, I 0:03:03.010 --> 0:03:07.090 would say. Um, I think it was Seamus Heaney who said, 0:03:07.130 --> 0:03:10.329 like in the 1980s or the 1990s. He said it was, 0:03:11.450 --> 0:03:13.930 you know, a revelation to him at that time that 0:03:13.970 --> 0:03:18.010 Lewis was even Irish. Yeah. Um, so so it's still 0:03:18.050 --> 0:03:19.970 not as big a deal as I would like it 0:03:19.970 --> 0:03:20.530 to be. 0:03:20.570 --> 0:03:23.610 Yeah. Well, let's talk about that, because, um, most of 0:03:23.610 --> 0:03:29.410 us think of Lewis as a as a Oxford, you know, Oxford. Cambridge. 0:03:29.450 --> 0:03:34.450 You know, he had that, that plummy accent. Um, and 0:03:35.330 --> 0:03:39.090 you in this book, uh, spent a lot of time 0:03:39.090 --> 0:03:42.810 thinking about, um, the extent to which Ireland, Northern Ireland 0:03:42.850 --> 0:03:46.330 shaped his imagination. And tell me about that. I mean, 0:03:46.370 --> 0:03:49.250 how did I how well, the floor is open. 0:03:49.250 --> 0:03:50.250 Uh, okay. 0:03:50.410 --> 0:03:51.730 However you want to talk about that, I'd love to 0:03:51.730 --> 0:03:52.530 hear you talk about it. 0:03:52.530 --> 0:03:57.000 Yeah. I mean, I think, um, Lewis himself never considered 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:00.560 himself as English. He always thought of himself as Irish. Um, 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:04.920 and I think other people saw him as Irish as well. Obviously, 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:07.560 Oxford was a massive part of his life. Oxford and 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:12.520 Cambridge were huge parts of his life, and he loved Oxford. Um, 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:14.680 there's a quote from Lewis where he said that, that 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:18.279 I think he was talking to another Irishman and, um, 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:22.360 he said that his idea of heaven would be Oxford, um, 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:26.640 in County Down, um, which was one of his favorite, uh, 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:31.719 areas here. But, um, I think it had a, a huge. 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:33.640 And he didn't he, he left here when he was 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:35.960 very young, but he kept coming back here when he 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:39.640 was in school. He was back here for every school holiday. Um, 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:42.559 when he was an adult. Um, he was back here 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:46.640 at least once a year. Um, throughout his life, right 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:50.800 up until he died. Um, and I think particularly for 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:57.230 me particularly, um, when I read the Narnia stories. Um, 0:04:57.230 --> 0:05:02.550 I now read them looking for places and things and 0:05:02.550 --> 0:05:05.870 events that are Northern Irish, and I think they are 0:05:05.910 --> 0:05:13.150 peppered with, um, references to Ulster. And I don't know 0:05:13.190 --> 0:05:15.350 if he was. I think some of that must have 0:05:15.350 --> 0:05:19.030 been conscious. I think some of it was probably subconscious. Um, 0:05:19.029 --> 0:05:21.950 but it's, it's, it's really interesting as a Northern Irish 0:05:21.950 --> 0:05:26.150 person now, I live in back in Northern Ireland, particularly, um, 0:05:26.190 --> 0:05:28.790 to read Narnia and just just to have those little 0:05:28.790 --> 0:05:30.990 things pop up at you and think, oh my goodness, 0:05:31.029 --> 0:05:32.670 that is, I know what that is. 0:05:32.870 --> 0:05:33.870 What are some examples? 0:05:34.910 --> 0:05:43.390 Um, so one of the most obvious examples, um, is caraval. Um, so, um, 0:05:44.150 --> 0:05:48.750 Lewis and his holidays with his mum. Uh, uh, one 0:05:48.750 --> 0:05:50.180 of the places that they went to quite a bit 0:05:50.180 --> 0:05:52.020 was the north coast of Ireland, and there are a 0:05:52.020 --> 0:05:54.620 couple of places on the north coast of Ireland that 0:05:55.180 --> 0:06:02.420 clearly influenced, um, the idea of caravel. So, um, Dunluce 0:06:02.420 --> 0:06:05.020 Castle is one of my favorite places on the planet, 0:06:05.020 --> 0:06:11.460 and I have loved that place since I was tiny. Um, it's, um, 0:06:12.300 --> 0:06:17.020 an incredible ruin of a castle from the 1600s. And 0:06:17.020 --> 0:06:19.539 that is still standing there on the edge of a cliff. 0:06:19.580 --> 0:06:21.820 The kitchen at one point, I think, in the Victorian 0:06:21.820 --> 0:06:29.059 times fell into the water. Um, and it's just incredibly atmospheric. Um, 0:06:29.100 --> 0:06:34.020 and when you read, um, Prince Caspian, particularly when the, uh, 0:06:34.020 --> 0:06:37.900 four siblings, uh, come on, car by rail, but they 0:06:37.900 --> 0:06:43.180 don't realise what it is because it's in ruin. It's so, um, 0:06:43.860 --> 0:06:50.010 Dunluce Castle, the other place that I think probably did, um, 0:06:50.410 --> 0:06:56.529 influence Lewis's imagination is, um, Downhill Demesne, which is not 0:06:56.529 --> 0:07:02.050 far from Duluth. Um, a little bit further west. Um, now, 0:07:02.089 --> 0:07:06.049 at the time when Lewis was a child, um, Downhill 0:07:06.050 --> 0:07:08.490 Demesne actually would have been occupied. It wasn't in ruin, 0:07:08.690 --> 0:07:14.090 but it is ruin now. Um, and throughout his life, 0:07:14.130 --> 0:07:18.810 Lewis probably noticed, probably witnessed that decline of of that 0:07:18.810 --> 0:07:22.330 particular house, which again, is a big sort of manor 0:07:22.330 --> 0:07:26.010 house on a near a cliff edge. Um, so. 0:07:26.210 --> 0:07:29.650 So you're drawing a parallel between that and parallel also? 0:07:29.730 --> 0:07:33.490 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think I think, uh, both 0:07:33.490 --> 0:07:37.210 of those probably influenced his, his imagination. Yeah. 0:07:37.330 --> 0:07:43.050 Tell me about his, um, he had a, uh, a nursemaid, uh, 0:07:43.810 --> 0:07:45.130 I think. Tell me about her. 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:49.400 Yeah. Lizzie? Yeah. Lizzie was from Donegal. Um. And seems 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.520 to have been very well versed in Irish fairy tales. 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:57.120 Irish folktales? Um, so she was telling him those folktales 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:01.920 from when he was very young. Um, she went on 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:04.280 holiday with them to Castle Rock, which is at the 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.640 north coast, um, and took them to Downhill Demesne, this 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:12.720 old house that fell into ruin. Um, and I, I 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:15.960 and lots of other people think that she did have 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:19.760 and those stories did have a big impact on him 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:21.320 as a child. Um. 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:24.920 Does she appear in, in, uh, your book giant? 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:30.240 He doesn't know she was earlier. Aha. Um, yeah. She 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:33.760 was she was quite young when. When Lizzie was part 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:34.679 of their household. 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:38.679 Yeah. Well, tell me about, uh, where where this book 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:42.040 your book came from. I mean, the what made you 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:47.430 decide to be fun, to write a story about juvenile jacks. Louis. 0:08:48.870 --> 0:08:52.230 Yeah. So I grew up with my dad was, um, 0:08:52.270 --> 0:08:57.110 pretty obsessed with C.S. Lewis. I think his interest started 0:08:57.110 --> 0:09:02.310 during the war with his, um, talk radio talks. Um, 0:09:03.070 --> 0:09:04.430 but then, um. 0:09:04.830 --> 0:09:07.709 Wow. So your dad remembers the the radio talks that 0:09:07.710 --> 0:09:09.190 became mere Christianity? 0:09:09.390 --> 0:09:09.910 Yeah. 0:09:10.230 --> 0:09:10.670 Yeah. 0:09:11.070 --> 0:09:13.710 Yeah. So he heard those on the radio during the war, 0:09:13.750 --> 0:09:17.069 and Belfast was very badly affected by the war. After London, 0:09:17.309 --> 0:09:23.190 it was the most bombed city. Really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 0:09:23.429 --> 0:09:25.270 And not a lot of people know that. Yeah. 0:09:25.350 --> 0:09:26.910 No, that's that's the first I've heard of that I 0:09:26.910 --> 0:09:28.710 guess because of all the shipyards there. 0:09:28.750 --> 0:09:35.230 Yes, yes. Yeah. Um, so, um, when we moved to 0:09:35.270 --> 0:09:41.150 America during that time, my dad, uh, was reading me 0:09:41.150 --> 0:09:44.220 May the Narnia books at night as bedtime stories. 0:09:44.340 --> 0:09:47.620 My first exposure to Narnia books was in the United 0:09:47.620 --> 0:09:49.020 States instead of over there. 0:09:49.420 --> 0:09:56.380 Yeah. In Amarillo, Texas. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, um. And 0:09:56.380 --> 0:09:58.500 he was a performer, you know, he was he was 0:09:58.540 --> 0:10:02.540 a a methodist minister. He was very good in the pulpit. Um, 0:10:02.860 --> 0:10:05.780 but he was also a comedian, you know, and, um, 0:10:05.940 --> 0:10:09.939 he loved performing, and, um, he would do all the voices, 0:10:09.980 --> 0:10:14.780 and he was, you know, it was quite the experience. Um, um, and, uh, 0:10:15.059 --> 0:10:18.220 but sometimes when he closed the book and he was 0:10:18.220 --> 0:10:19.740 about to turn off the light, he would turn around 0:10:19.740 --> 0:10:21.300 and say to me, don't you forget he was a 0:10:21.300 --> 0:10:26.380 Belfast boy. Um, and that my dad was Belfast boy. 0:10:26.420 --> 0:10:31.180 My dad was born Belfast. Um, and I think that 0:10:31.179 --> 0:10:34.340 got in my head. And I thinking back now, I 0:10:34.340 --> 0:10:40.970 think my dad was only really realising Lewis's Irishness at 0:10:41.010 --> 0:10:44.410 that point in his life. Obviously, he knew that. He 0:10:44.450 --> 0:10:47.650 knew that Lewis was Irish, but I think he was 0:10:48.610 --> 0:10:50.850 the copy of surprised by Joy that I have that 0:10:50.850 --> 0:10:53.690 belonged to my dad is an American copy. So I 0:10:53.690 --> 0:10:57.770 think that he was kind of delving into Lewis's biography 0:10:57.809 --> 0:10:59.929 at about the same time as he was reading minority. 0:11:00.570 --> 0:11:05.609 So when my dad passed away, I felt the need 0:11:05.610 --> 0:11:09.250 for story to console myself. So I started looking into 0:11:09.250 --> 0:11:12.209 my dad's family history, which I'd never really done. But 0:11:12.210 --> 0:11:15.530 I was also looking at Lewis's time in Ireland. And 0:11:15.530 --> 0:11:20.450 then it suddenly dawned on me that. My grandfather, my 0:11:20.450 --> 0:11:23.610 dad's dad, who I'd never known, and C.S. Lewis had 0:11:23.610 --> 0:11:25.610 been born in the same part of Belfast at about 0:11:25.610 --> 0:11:29.490 the same time. Wow. And that just went off like 0:11:29.530 --> 0:11:32.809 a firework in my head. Like I got out a 0:11:32.809 --> 0:11:35.850 map and I was looking to see how far away 0:11:35.850 --> 0:11:38.920 the two boys were. And, you know, there they were just, 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.200 you know, within walking distance of each other. Um, so 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:43.560 that's where it started. 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:47.320 So Davey, the the friend of Jackson in the novel, um, 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:51.319 is his situation in any way similar to your grandfather's situation? 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.480 Um, in some ways, yes. There's probably more fiction in 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:58.360 David's part of the story than there is in Jack's. Um, 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:01.400 because I don't know a lot about my grandfather. I 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:04.679 don't know a lot about his childhood. Um, but I 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:07.560 know that he lived in the shipyard area of Belfast, 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:12.760 but somehow managed to avoid working in the shipyard. Um, so, um, 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.480 there are some, some bits and pieces in there that 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:18.880 are that are gleaned from his life. 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:23.760 Yeah, yeah. Uh, Lewis's grandfather was kind of a higher 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:25.680 up in the in one of the shipyards. Is that right? 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:28.640 He had a he owned a shipyard? Yes, he. 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:28.800 Owned. 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:34.840 A shipyard. Yeah, he owned, uh, Lewis, um, McIlwaine and Lewis. Lewis. Uh, 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:37.910 it was known as the Way Shipyard and then Harland 0:12:37.910 --> 0:12:41.510 and Wolff, which built Titanic. Um, it was known as 0:12:41.510 --> 0:12:43.390 the Big Shipyard. Um. 0:12:43.910 --> 0:12:45.830 Oh, you said the wee the wee shipyard? 0:12:46.070 --> 0:12:46.590 Yeah. 0:12:46.950 --> 0:12:53.390 Okay. Yeah. Um. Uh, well, Judith, as as I have 0:12:53.830 --> 0:12:59.430 thought about your research, um, and your your book, especially here, 0:12:59.429 --> 0:13:02.350 that that your first exposure to Narnia was in Amarillo, Texas, 0:13:02.350 --> 0:13:06.350 which is so funny to me. Um, a theme that's 0:13:06.350 --> 0:13:13.110 sort of emerging is displacement. You know, you got exposed 0:13:13.110 --> 0:13:18.230 to this Belfast boy when you went far away from Belfast. Um, 0:13:18.270 --> 0:13:23.430 I the thought of Lewis displaced from this sort of 0:13:23.470 --> 0:13:28.110 magical place. He grew up. And, I mean, of course, 0:13:28.150 --> 0:13:31.270 Oxford is plenty magical itself, but it was not his home. Yeah. 0:13:31.670 --> 0:13:38.620 And and his thinking back to the Irish folk tales, 0:13:38.620 --> 0:13:45.819 the Irish landscapes. There's something about that displacement that seems significant. Um, 0:13:46.820 --> 0:13:51.260 tell me about that. Did you. Um, we were talking before. 0:13:51.700 --> 0:13:54.820 Before we started recording about the idea that how often 0:13:55.380 --> 0:14:00.500 writers are, um, they're writing about where they grew up. 0:14:00.980 --> 0:14:03.380 Not while they're there, but when they've left. 0:14:03.860 --> 0:14:08.699 Mhm. Yeah. And I think that idea of displacement is 0:14:08.700 --> 0:14:11.740 very much part of our history as a race. You know, 0:14:12.300 --> 0:14:15.020 that the Irish have emigrated all over the world for 0:14:15.020 --> 0:14:19.180 various reasons. And I think sometimes the Irish feel more 0:14:19.220 --> 0:14:21.780 Irish when they leave Ireland. Do you know, they cling 0:14:21.820 --> 0:14:25.180 to their Irishness? Um, and I think that was the 0:14:25.180 --> 0:14:31.810 case for Louis. Um. You know, he loved Irish literature. 0:14:31.850 --> 0:14:37.690 He loved W.B. Yeats in particular. Um, and I, I 0:14:37.890 --> 0:14:44.250 think he, um, he really clung to Irishness as an identity. Um. 0:14:46.290 --> 0:14:50.330 I certainly when we were living in Texas, which was 0:14:50.330 --> 0:14:53.930 so different from where we had come from, um, the 0:14:53.930 --> 0:14:57.690 culture shock was, uh, you know, profound for all five 0:14:57.690 --> 0:15:05.570 of us. Um, I think those stories, which now I 0:15:05.570 --> 0:15:09.570 realize are so Irish, I think those Narnia stories were 0:15:09.570 --> 0:15:12.370 comforting to me because they reminded me of home, you know, 0:15:12.410 --> 0:15:16.210 as well as as other writers like L.M. Montgomery. Um. 0:15:18.450 --> 0:15:20.890 You know, I was looking for stories that reminded me 0:15:20.890 --> 0:15:23.490 of home, but I think I think if you look 0:15:23.490 --> 0:15:25.650 at the biography of a lot of writers, a lot 0:15:25.650 --> 0:15:30.560 of writers are displaced and a lot of them, Um, 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:33.360 that displacement kind of kicks you out of your own 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:38.000 culture and forces you to have to sit back and 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:42.760 watch and learn, uh, a bit more, maybe, than if 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:46.520 you were feeling comfortable in your own culture, I think. 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:50.120 Yeah, yeah, I know I'm always writing little stories about 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.520 Warner Robins, Georgia, where I grew up, and I've wondered 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.480 before if I were living there, would I feel the 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:57.920 need to write it down? And just it would just 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:01.520 kind of be every day if I still lived there. 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.600 Although the sort of you could say that we're all 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:09.480 as adults, we're always displaced from the world of our childhood. Right? 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:10.320 Yeah. 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:13.120 Um, but but I don't think I would write as 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:17.280 many stories about middle Georgia if I were still there. 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:20.560 Mhm. Yeah. It makes you consider your own roots differently, 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:20.920 I think. 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:27.480 Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it's you remarked that Irish people 0:16:27.590 --> 0:16:30.710 feeling more Irish when they are away from Ireland. You know, 0:16:30.750 --> 0:16:35.310 I know when I'm saying Washington, D.C. or or visiting 0:16:35.310 --> 0:16:37.230 New York City, I run into somebody from the South. 0:16:37.270 --> 0:16:40.190 That's let's talk. And I think about people from the 0:16:40.190 --> 0:16:41.550 South all the time. Why do I want to talk 0:16:41.590 --> 0:16:42.030 to them? 0:16:42.190 --> 0:16:46.230 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And Lewis in Oxford. Lewis was always 0:16:46.230 --> 0:16:49.070 looking for Irish people. Yeah. You know, he was always 0:16:49.070 --> 0:16:54.430 seeking out Irish people. Um, Coghill I think was one 0:16:54.430 --> 0:16:56.910 of the inklings and he was he was from County Cork, 0:16:56.950 --> 0:16:59.790 I think. Yeah. Um, so he was always really happy 0:16:59.790 --> 0:17:01.270 to find an Irishman in Oxford. 0:17:01.550 --> 0:17:05.669 Yeah. Uh, Judith, you have been working. How long have 0:17:05.670 --> 0:17:07.150 you been working on this book? 0:17:09.430 --> 0:17:10.830 Uh, ten years. 0:17:10.869 --> 0:17:11.629 Ten years? 0:17:11.910 --> 0:17:16.629 Yeah. Yeah, but it has had many different forms. So 0:17:17.270 --> 0:17:19.389 when I started writing it, I was writing it as 0:17:19.390 --> 0:17:23.030 a screenplay. But it turns out I don't know how 0:17:23.030 --> 0:17:27.580 to write screenplays. So then, um, then I decided to 0:17:27.580 --> 0:17:29.459 go back to what I had a vague idea about. 0:17:29.460 --> 0:17:31.500 So I started writing it as a story. 0:17:32.020 --> 0:17:34.900 Yeah. Was it. Did you always know it was a novel, 0:17:34.900 --> 0:17:37.139 or did you start it as a short story? 0:17:37.820 --> 0:17:41.980 No. I always knew it was going to be a novel. Yeah. Yeah. 0:17:42.700 --> 0:17:44.100 I don't know how to write short stories. 0:17:45.460 --> 0:17:48.820 By the way. Uh, why is this book called giant? 0:17:50.500 --> 0:17:55.500 Yeah. Um, it wasn't originally. Originally, it was called Deviant Jack's. 0:17:55.900 --> 0:17:59.380 And then my publisher asked me to think about different names. 0:17:59.740 --> 0:18:03.300 So we kind of semi settled on the giant of Belfast, 0:18:03.300 --> 0:18:07.660 but then we thought that was maybe too geographically tied. Um, 0:18:07.700 --> 0:18:10.859 so I like the fact that it's just called giant. 0:18:10.859 --> 0:18:14.580 It could of course refer to C.S. Lewis himself. Um, 0:18:15.220 --> 0:18:19.220 there are lots of giants in Irish mythology, um, which 0:18:19.220 --> 0:18:24.210 come up in the story, um, and the shipyard in 0:18:24.210 --> 0:18:29.490 Belfast is also associated with giants. Um because of what 0:18:29.490 --> 0:18:32.810 they they create is is so giant. So yeah, there's 0:18:32.930 --> 0:18:34.930 there's a few different reasons. Yeah. 0:18:35.530 --> 0:18:41.129 Um, and, uh, tell me about these. You mentioned that 0:18:41.130 --> 0:18:45.210 it's about a friendship between these two boys. Um, um, 0:18:45.250 --> 0:18:47.250 but there's also this sort of. I don't know if 0:18:47.250 --> 0:18:49.330 you call it, would you call it magical realism? But 0:18:49.330 --> 0:18:51.330 what would you call this, this element of. 0:18:53.369 --> 0:18:56.649 Yeah, that's an interesting question. Yeah. I think it steps 0:18:56.650 --> 0:19:03.050 right up to the edge of magical realism, I think. Uh, so, um, 0:19:04.250 --> 0:19:06.209 one of the major, one of the major changes that 0:19:06.210 --> 0:19:09.090 happened to this book along the way is came as 0:19:09.090 --> 0:19:12.970 a result of a workshop with you inhabit and three 0:19:12.970 --> 0:19:15.409 other members of the habit. Um, and one of the 0:19:15.410 --> 0:19:17.570 things you said about it was, you don't need those 0:19:17.890 --> 0:19:20.369 magical creatures in there, because originally it did have a 0:19:20.369 --> 0:19:24.560 lot of fantastical creatures in it. And after about a 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:29.920 week when I'd recovered from you saying that. I sat 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.440 down to look at it, and I. I mean, I 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:35.280 thought it was going to take me months to remove 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:41.360 that layer of fantastical creatures, and it took me. It 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:44.720 only took me weeks. They kind of clicked off the 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:48.639 rest of the manuscript, really. It was weird. Um, and 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:51.200 I was able to rewrite it and replace a lot 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.439 of those fantastical creatures got replaced with the books that 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:57.760 Jax and Davy are reading together. Uh, the Jax, the 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:01.680 books that C.S. Lewis actually read when he was a child. Um, 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:10.840 so they kind of, uh, imagine us using those books 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:14.639 as sort of a springboard for their imaginations, but it's 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:18.280 it never steps over the line into magical realism, I 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:20.300 don't think, but just right up to the edge. 0:20:20.340 --> 0:20:24.699 Yeah, yeah. And, uh, you know which books Lewis read from? 0:20:24.740 --> 0:20:26.980 Just reading. Surprised by Joy. Where do you know? How 0:20:26.980 --> 0:20:28.100 do you know what books he read? 0:20:28.540 --> 0:20:35.580 Yeah. Um, from his letters and from surprised by Joy. Yeah. So, um. Beatrice. Sorry. 0:20:35.580 --> 0:20:40.980 Beatrix Potter was, um, a big favourite. Um, he loved 0:20:40.980 --> 0:20:46.300 Mark Twain. Mark Twain's a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's court. Uh, 0:20:46.300 --> 0:20:49.420 he says that was his first introduction to King Arthur. 0:20:49.460 --> 0:20:56.100 Would you believe it? Really? Yeah. Um, yeah. Um, Jonathan Swift, obviously, 0:20:56.140 --> 0:20:58.460 Gulliver's Travels is a big influence, and that's the other 0:20:58.460 --> 0:21:00.780 reason why it's called giant, because there's a mountain that 0:21:00.780 --> 0:21:05.460 looms over Belfast, um, that is supposed to have inspired 0:21:05.500 --> 0:21:08.899 Gulliver's Travels whenever Jonathan Swift spent some time here. 0:21:09.380 --> 0:21:12.340 Is, uh. Is it a giant in repose? 0:21:12.859 --> 0:21:13.419 Yes. 0:21:13.540 --> 0:21:14.020 Yeah. 0:21:14.540 --> 0:21:14.980 Yeah. 0:21:15.300 --> 0:21:18.250 I think there's a there's a mountain that's described as 0:21:18.250 --> 0:21:20.410 a giant in repose and silver chair, isn't there? 0:21:22.050 --> 0:21:24.050 You could be right about that. I don't actually know. 0:21:24.090 --> 0:21:25.770 That's another thing. I need to look at that. 0:21:27.770 --> 0:21:31.850 Um, yeah. Um, that's fun to think about. Him being 0:21:31.850 --> 0:21:34.369 influenced by Mark Twain and or at least that he 0:21:34.369 --> 0:21:37.130 read Mark Twain. Yeah. And I always like to point 0:21:37.130 --> 0:21:42.730 out that Beatrix Potter was, um, influenced by, um, Uncle Remus, 0:21:42.770 --> 0:21:44.490 you know, the the the really? 0:21:44.770 --> 0:21:45.330 Really. 0:21:45.369 --> 0:21:49.650 Yeah. She, she read those and loved the, the pictures. Now, 0:21:49.650 --> 0:21:51.130 I can't remember the name of the illustrator who did 0:21:51.130 --> 0:21:55.570 those pictures of Br'er Rabbit and and Br'er Fox. Oh, wow. And, um. 0:21:55.770 --> 0:22:00.650 And so she's she's so you think of what could 0:22:00.650 --> 0:22:04.770 be more, more British Beatrix Potter. But it's fun to 0:22:04.770 --> 0:22:09.970 think that that she practiced. She did some illustrations of 0:22:10.010 --> 0:22:10.889 Br'er Rabbit. 0:22:11.369 --> 0:22:12.010 No way. 0:22:12.410 --> 0:22:15.960 Before she, you know, decided to to make her rabbit 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:19.080 a little English rabbit. 0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:21.960 I did not know that I love that, I absolutely 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:25.240 love that. I've spent a 3 or 4 years ago, 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:29.040 we spent some time, uh, we spent a week, um, 0:22:29.160 --> 0:22:35.160 very near where Beatrix Potter lived, um, swimming in a lake. And, um, 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:37.920 was hanging out at her college. Um, yeah. And that's 0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:39.560 a million miles away from Br'er Rabbit. 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:43.640 Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And of course, Br'er Rabbit was, uh, 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:46.720 the next county over from, uh, Flannery O'Connor. Uh, of. 0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:47.720 Course. Yeah. 0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:51.960 So I think now we found out that Flannery O'Connor 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:53.240 influenced C.S. Lewis. 0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:57.000 Yeah, yeah, we knew we'd get there. 0:22:57.160 --> 0:22:58.080 We'd get there eventually. 0:22:58.080 --> 0:22:59.439 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:06.040 Um, okay, now, would you mind telling the story of, 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:10.200 of the, the arduous journey of this book to publication? 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:15.350 Yeah. So it's been a bit of a roller coaster. Really? Um, 0:23:16.270 --> 0:23:21.830 so I thought my book was ready, um, sort of 0:23:21.869 --> 0:23:26.830 2019 time. So I sent it out to a publisher. Um, 0:23:27.270 --> 0:23:30.670 and the first one said, yes, um, first one. So 0:23:30.710 --> 0:23:36.910 the first one. Yeah. So, um, early 20. No, early 2021. 0:23:36.910 --> 0:23:40.390 That was, um, I signed a contract. Um, they said 0:23:40.390 --> 0:23:43.470 it would take about two years, as it normally does. Um, 0:23:43.990 --> 0:23:47.350 so we were kind of working on it, but not, 0:23:47.350 --> 0:23:53.190 not not a lot. Um, and then a few couple 0:23:53.230 --> 0:23:57.470 of months before it was due to be published, they 0:23:57.510 --> 0:24:02.310 emailed me and said that because of their financial situation, 0:24:02.310 --> 0:24:06.149 they weren't going to be able to publish it anymore. Um, 0:24:06.150 --> 0:24:11.350 so I was back to square one, really. Um, so 0:24:11.350 --> 0:24:16.859 I went from being Debbie writer back to housewife. In 0:24:16.859 --> 0:24:21.420 the course of reading an email, which was yeah, it 0:24:21.420 --> 0:24:28.139 taught me a lot about identity and, um. What you 0:24:28.180 --> 0:24:34.740 rest in, um, but it was good for me. I 0:24:35.180 --> 0:24:38.859 picked myself up off the ground, and I got myself 0:24:38.859 --> 0:24:46.140 an agent. Um. And, um, he started sending it out. 0:24:46.140 --> 0:24:50.820 And then eventually, about a year later, um, my Irish 0:24:50.820 --> 0:24:57.060 publisher opened for submissions for two weeks. Um, we got 0:24:57.060 --> 0:25:00.139 it in. Um, they said they loved it. So I've 0:25:00.180 --> 0:25:06.580 ended up with this wonderful, small but mighty Irish publisher. 0:25:06.619 --> 0:25:10.649 I think this is the first time anything about Lewis 0:25:10.650 --> 0:25:12.609 has been published in the Republic of Ireland. 0:25:13.090 --> 0:25:13.530 Wow. 0:25:14.369 --> 0:25:20.530 Um. And back in 1917, Lewis was writing to his 0:25:20.530 --> 0:25:26.050 Belfast friend Arthur, and he said that he would love 0:25:26.210 --> 0:25:29.930 for his stuff to be published in Dublin. Um, which 0:25:29.930 --> 0:25:33.530 never happened, obviously. Um, so yeah, it's interesting. 0:25:33.770 --> 0:25:37.290 So your publishing house is in Dublin? Yes. The Republic 0:25:37.290 --> 0:25:41.130 of Ireland. Not not Northern Ireland. Yeah. Um, are there 0:25:41.130 --> 0:25:43.889 publishers in in Belfast in Northern Ireland? 0:25:45.090 --> 0:25:49.930 Um, there are small publishers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:25:50.650 --> 0:25:54.210 Yeah. Um, well, I'd love to tell me more about 0:25:55.210 --> 0:25:58.730 what you learned about identity from getting your book dropped. 0:25:59.410 --> 0:26:10.560 Uh, yeah. So that day, the email day. Um, I, 0:26:11.200 --> 0:26:13.920 I don't know what I was doing in the morning, but, um, 0:26:14.160 --> 0:26:17.639 I really felt that I should go out in the garden. 0:26:17.640 --> 0:26:19.520 We had a tent. I think we were having a 0:26:19.520 --> 0:26:23.640 heat wave. Sometimes it's easier because we have. We don't 0:26:23.640 --> 0:26:27.359 have aircon. Right? So we, um. Sometimes it's easier to 0:26:27.400 --> 0:26:32.200 sleep outside than it is inside, um, when it's really hot. Um, 0:26:32.400 --> 0:26:34.320 so we had a tent outside in the garden, and 0:26:34.320 --> 0:26:37.720 I just felt that I should go outside and just 0:26:37.720 --> 0:26:42.240 sit in the tent. And as I entered the tent, 0:26:42.240 --> 0:26:47.760 I just felt the presence of God really, really powerfully. Um, 0:26:47.800 --> 0:26:52.200 and I just felt like everything was going to be okay, 0:26:52.400 --> 0:26:56.959 even though I thought everything was okay. And then later on, 0:26:56.960 --> 0:27:00.440 it was later on that evening when I got the email, um, 0:27:00.480 --> 0:27:02.600 from the publisher to say they weren't going to be 0:27:02.600 --> 0:27:05.320 able to do it. And I immediately connected that to 0:27:05.359 --> 0:27:09.550 what had happened earlier on in the day in the garden. Um, 0:27:10.350 --> 0:27:13.790 so I just I had this really funny reaction to 0:27:13.830 --> 0:27:18.350 that email where I was upset, but also, oh, hang on, 0:27:18.390 --> 0:27:21.350 this is this is an adventure that I'm on. This 0:27:21.350 --> 0:27:26.510 is like I am letting go of something I thought was. 0:27:30.470 --> 0:27:33.590 Set in place for me. I, I'm letting I've, I 0:27:33.750 --> 0:27:35.230 have to let go of that and I have to 0:27:35.270 --> 0:27:40.550 not hold on to that. Um, and in the process 0:27:40.550 --> 0:27:43.590 of getting it out to other publishers, you know, that 0:27:43.590 --> 0:27:49.629 whole whirlwind of submissions, um, you learn that if you 0:27:49.630 --> 0:27:55.950 don't get it published, it's okay. You know, that actually, 0:27:56.470 --> 0:28:01.910 you learn to listen. I think I learned I really 0:28:01.910 --> 0:28:05.260 impatient by nature Guitar, and I have learned through that 0:28:05.260 --> 0:28:09.740 whole experience the wonders of waiting on the Lord. Um, 0:28:10.020 --> 0:28:14.660 of just saying I am inadequate and insufficient for this. 0:28:15.660 --> 0:28:19.020 And I will lay this down if you want me to. 0:28:19.460 --> 0:28:25.020 But actually, every single time I offered to lay it down, 0:28:25.020 --> 0:28:27.060 he told me to pick it back up again, like, 0:28:27.100 --> 0:28:32.139 every single time. Um, so it's I think I learned 0:28:32.140 --> 0:28:36.580 that my identity is not in what, what happens with 0:28:36.580 --> 0:28:38.260 what comes out at the end of my pen, but 0:28:38.300 --> 0:28:43.100 is actually in my ability to sit back and listen 0:28:43.140 --> 0:28:46.900 and to wait. And if I just follow that, if 0:28:46.900 --> 0:28:53.020 I could just not forget to do that, you know? Yeah. Um, 0:28:53.860 --> 0:28:56.459 because it's so easy to forget to do that, I think. 0:28:57.820 --> 0:29:03.930 Yeah. When you talk about waiting, Um, to what extent 0:29:03.970 --> 0:29:08.330 is that relevant to the actual creative process, and to 0:29:08.330 --> 0:29:10.530 what extent are you just talking about the sort of 0:29:11.610 --> 0:29:14.490 I mean, obviously with regard to publishing and things like that, 0:29:14.490 --> 0:29:17.450 I see how that applies. Maybe that's what you're talking about, 0:29:17.450 --> 0:29:22.250 but are you talking about the actual work of writing also? 0:29:23.690 --> 0:29:29.690 Yeah, I think I probably am. Um. Not just writing, 0:29:29.690 --> 0:29:34.970 but also editing. I find, um, maybe even more so 0:29:34.970 --> 0:29:40.410 in the editing process. So it's things like, I really 0:29:40.730 --> 0:29:43.530 wanted the two boys in the story to go and 0:29:43.530 --> 0:29:47.930 see an early film together, um, like a silent film, 0:29:48.170 --> 0:29:53.090 and I, um. I really wanted them to go and 0:29:53.090 --> 0:29:57.650 see a George Melies movie. So I started looking at, um, 0:29:57.810 --> 0:30:00.640 George Melies movies, and then I discovered that he made 0:30:00.640 --> 0:30:06.880 a movie of. Gulliver's Travels and Gulliver's Travels was already 0:30:06.880 --> 0:30:09.520 in there, and I just thought that. But it felt 0:30:09.520 --> 0:30:13.920 like that just landed in my lap. You know, um, 0:30:13.960 --> 0:30:17.960 during the editing process, that it. It's like a wedding, 0:30:17.960 --> 0:30:21.479 but then also a discovering kind of thing. And I 0:30:21.480 --> 0:30:27.160 suppose that waiting there is something about finding treasure that 0:30:27.160 --> 0:30:33.959 is like waiting as well. Do you know? Um. 0:30:35.240 --> 0:30:35.640 Tell me. 0:30:35.640 --> 0:30:40.040 About that. I find the writing process is a discovery. 0:30:40.040 --> 0:30:46.360 Process feels more like discovery to me than creating. Um, 0:30:47.480 --> 0:30:52.280 it feels more like the more I just put pen 0:30:52.280 --> 0:30:59.830 to paper. The more that I am pushing on doorways, 0:30:59.830 --> 0:31:05.390 the more that things are given to me. And that 0:31:05.390 --> 0:31:14.230 it's sometimes that sometimes that is out of my own imagination. Okay. 0:31:14.270 --> 0:31:17.750 My my own experiences, you know, you can see that 0:31:18.110 --> 0:31:21.110 in there, but there are also things in there. Sometimes 0:31:21.110 --> 0:31:23.910 I read that story back and I think, well, where 0:31:23.910 --> 0:31:26.990 did I how did I get to that? You know, 0:31:27.390 --> 0:31:30.910 and I, I think some of those things I was given. 0:31:31.470 --> 0:31:38.150 Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Um the I'm actually going to be 0:31:38.150 --> 0:31:42.590 talking to somebody in later this morning in another podcast. Mhm. 0:31:42.790 --> 0:31:46.390 Um I ran across an idea in a book by 0:31:46.430 --> 0:31:52.590 Warren Kinghorn. Um who he pointed out that for Plato 0:31:53.150 --> 0:31:58.020 an idea was something outside you And so if I 0:31:58.020 --> 0:32:01.060 have an idea, it's really that something in, in my 0:32:01.060 --> 0:32:06.860 mind is conforming itself to a reality that's out, that's outside. 0:32:06.860 --> 0:32:10.460 And since, you know, the enlightenment or whatever, we've come 0:32:10.460 --> 0:32:12.180 to think of an idea as something that happens inside 0:32:12.180 --> 0:32:13.340 your head, right? 0:32:13.380 --> 0:32:13.620 Yeah. 0:32:13.660 --> 0:32:15.580 And I think it's, you know, I think what you're 0:32:15.580 --> 0:32:18.260 talking about there may be relevant to that, you know, 0:32:18.300 --> 0:32:21.020 that you of course, there's something going on inside your 0:32:21.020 --> 0:32:24.620 head when you have these ideas. Um, but maybe it's 0:32:24.620 --> 0:32:26.900 not just going on inside your head. Mhm. 0:32:27.180 --> 0:32:31.020 Yeah. Yeah. And I think I love this idea of 0:32:31.020 --> 0:32:35.020 the coding of story as well that, you know, we, 0:32:36.140 --> 0:32:39.940 we absorb our culture and we absorb all those stories 0:32:39.940 --> 0:32:44.020 that we read and we absorb all our experiences. And 0:32:44.020 --> 0:32:46.460 then when we write all of that pours out of 0:32:46.460 --> 0:32:52.700 us somehow, you know? Um, a family member has recently 0:32:52.700 --> 0:32:58.210 read Giant. And I said, I said, I said, how 0:32:58.210 --> 0:33:02.890 much of our family like the the my childhood family, 0:33:03.210 --> 0:33:06.210 how much it feels like that. And I had I 0:33:06.210 --> 0:33:10.130 had no idea that it would feel like that, you know. 0:33:11.210 --> 0:33:19.209 Yeah. I wonder, um. When you speak of the all 0:33:19.210 --> 0:33:24.730 your cultural influences going into that cauldron. Um, I don't 0:33:24.730 --> 0:33:26.810 mean this isn't a this isn't a question. I don't 0:33:26.810 --> 0:33:27.850 I don't know what it is, but maybe you have 0:33:27.850 --> 0:33:31.810 something to say about it. Your your cultural experience just 0:33:31.810 --> 0:33:36.209 from being across the ocean from me. You know, we 0:33:36.210 --> 0:33:38.450 have a lot. There's plenty of overlap in our cultural experience. 0:33:38.450 --> 0:33:41.130 We've had a lot of books and that kind of thing. Um, 0:33:41.330 --> 0:33:45.770 but I wonder I wonder how that what that means, 0:33:46.130 --> 0:33:50.969 how that makes its way out into what you've written. Because, um, 0:33:51.730 --> 0:33:54.280 I love that insight that your family member said that 0:33:54.280 --> 0:33:56.640 this feels like you're. Of course it does. What else 0:33:56.640 --> 0:33:59.080 could it? What else are you going to write? 0:33:59.840 --> 0:34:05.040 Yeah. Yeah. And I think I think it's it's sometimes 0:34:05.040 --> 0:34:11.399 it's tiny things, isn't it? I think as writers. We 0:34:11.400 --> 0:34:14.720 get really fruitful when we focus on tiny things. 0:34:14.920 --> 0:34:15.960 Oh, tell me about that. 0:34:16.560 --> 0:34:21.960 Um, so I, I spend a good chunk of my 0:34:21.960 --> 0:34:27.000 morning did it this morning walking the family and with 0:34:27.000 --> 0:34:34.919 my collie dog. Um. There is some sort of connection 0:34:34.920 --> 0:34:44.040 between how much attention I pay to, um. What stage 0:34:44.239 --> 0:34:49.360 the cow parsley is at. Yeah. How green the grass is. Yeah. 0:34:49.440 --> 0:34:55.510 Where the oak leaves are at. And my creative productivity. 0:34:55.550 --> 0:34:57.509 Later on in the day, there is some sort of 0:34:57.550 --> 0:35:04.950 connection between that focus on small, beautiful things and my creativity. 0:35:04.950 --> 0:35:12.470 And I don't understand. But it's as if, um, that 0:35:12.469 --> 0:35:17.390 focus on the small and the beautiful creates fertility somehow 0:35:17.790 --> 0:35:21.230 in my imagination. Yeah. And it also connects me to 0:35:21.270 --> 0:35:24.109 my childhood. Because those those that Lee and I walk 0:35:24.110 --> 0:35:26.230 in the morning is the same sort of lanes I 0:35:26.230 --> 0:35:29.750 walked when I was a kid. And it connects me 0:35:29.910 --> 0:35:32.350 back to my childhood. And I think the same thing 0:35:32.350 --> 0:35:35.029 was happening with Lewis. You know, I think he was 0:35:35.030 --> 0:35:38.030 writing out of the leaf mold of his mind. Um, 0:35:38.070 --> 0:35:43.710 out of all of those Irish and English experiences, um, 0:35:45.110 --> 0:35:46.750 to create something beautiful. 0:35:48.340 --> 0:35:52.819 I'm interested in thinking about. What's the relevance of the 0:35:52.820 --> 0:35:56.460 fact that it's the same lane every day that you're walking? 0:35:56.620 --> 0:35:59.620 You know, that's that's where you get to start noticing 0:35:59.620 --> 0:36:04.340 the small things. Yeah. Um, and, you know, when you 0:36:04.900 --> 0:36:09.140 when you go on tour, you know, when you, when 0:36:09.140 --> 0:36:11.940 you're a tourist, you're noticing the big, you know, there's the, 0:36:12.660 --> 0:36:17.700 there's the pyramid and there's. Yeah, Big Ben, you know, and, and, uh, 0:36:17.700 --> 0:36:20.020 and when you walk the same lane every day and 0:36:20.020 --> 0:36:23.540 there's nothing big to notice anymore that you haven't noticed before, 0:36:23.580 --> 0:36:25.260 you start noticing the little things. 0:36:25.660 --> 0:36:29.660 Yeah, absolutely. And that that I noticed that process in 0:36:29.660 --> 0:36:34.020 me actually during lockdown because as a family, we were 0:36:34.020 --> 0:36:37.140 walking the same lanes because there was nothing else to do. Um, 0:36:37.140 --> 0:36:41.180 because we were, you know, we were geographically confined. We 0:36:41.180 --> 0:36:45.980 weren't allowed to leave the village or whatever. Um, but 0:36:46.450 --> 0:36:48.969 suddenly we knew at what time of the year the 0:36:48.969 --> 0:36:53.050 cow parsley comes in bloom. And when the speedwell flowers 0:36:53.050 --> 0:36:57.850 come in bloom. And we were brought back to that 0:36:57.850 --> 0:37:04.490 simplicity of of nature and of seasons and of growth 0:37:05.090 --> 0:37:10.129 and of slowness. Um. Uh. That was a it was 0:37:10.130 --> 0:37:11.530 a beautiful thing, I think. 0:37:11.810 --> 0:37:12.210 Yeah. 0:37:12.410 --> 0:37:16.050 Yeah. I had the same experience here. I started noticing, 0:37:16.489 --> 0:37:17.810 you know, which kind of birds. 0:37:18.330 --> 0:37:18.730 Yeah. 0:37:18.770 --> 0:37:19.290 Live here? 0:37:19.810 --> 0:37:21.050 Yeah. Yeah. 0:37:22.130 --> 0:37:27.330 All right. Well, um. That's so good. Thank you. Judith. 0:37:27.450 --> 0:37:30.250 I want to hear from you. Hopefully you're ready for 0:37:30.250 --> 0:37:32.370 this question. Who are the writers that make you want 0:37:32.370 --> 0:37:32.850 to write? 0:37:35.170 --> 0:37:38.170 So I could say Lewis and Tolkien, but actually, I 0:37:38.210 --> 0:37:39.730 find them quite intimidating. 0:37:39.890 --> 0:37:41.250 Mhm. Yeah. 0:37:41.410 --> 0:37:44.360 And if I spent too long thinking about the wonders 0:37:44.360 --> 0:37:48.160 of their work, then I probably never would work. Would write. Um, 0:37:48.200 --> 0:37:51.879 so I'm going to say Ellen Montgomery, because she was 0:37:51.880 --> 0:37:54.040 a massive influence on me as a child as well. 0:37:54.600 --> 0:37:57.319 And she reminded me of home, and she feels much 0:37:57.320 --> 0:38:01.640 more attainable. Um, and I'm actually going to say, also, 0:38:01.640 --> 0:38:05.479 I don't read much nonfiction, but I love anything that 0:38:05.480 --> 0:38:11.480 Katherine Rundell writes about writing. Um, so her tiny little book, uh, 0:38:11.520 --> 0:38:14.600 called Why You Should Write Children's, Why You Should Read 0:38:14.640 --> 0:38:17.719 Children's Fiction book, even though you are so old and 0:38:17.719 --> 0:38:21.280 wise is just fantastic. 0:38:21.320 --> 0:38:21.640 Okay. 0:38:21.680 --> 0:38:28.680 Absolutely brilliant. Um, just makes me want to write as 0:38:28.680 --> 0:38:30.240 many hours in a day as I can. 0:38:31.160 --> 0:38:34.440 Is Katherine Rundell the one who wrote the the John 0:38:34.440 --> 0:38:35.440 Donne book? 0:38:37.200 --> 0:38:40.480 Yes, I think she is. Yeah. She's an Oxford scholar. 0:38:40.920 --> 0:38:41.320 Um. 0:38:41.680 --> 0:38:43.670 Yeah, but she also writes children's fiction. 0:38:44.350 --> 0:38:47.350 Okay. Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah. 0:38:47.390 --> 0:38:48.870 All right. I'm glad you mentioned her. 0:38:49.230 --> 0:38:51.750 No, she's. She's amazing on children's fiction. 0:38:51.950 --> 0:38:52.509 Okay. 0:38:52.790 --> 0:38:55.310 Give me real just a couple of things from that 0:38:55.310 --> 0:38:57.270 book that got you excited. 0:38:58.150 --> 0:39:02.270 Um, that children's fiction is is about things like wonder 0:39:02.310 --> 0:39:06.790 and awe that aren't always in adult fiction. 0:39:07.110 --> 0:39:07.470 Mhm. 0:39:08.070 --> 0:39:13.390 Um, and that they are about children's fiction is about, um, 0:39:14.590 --> 0:39:19.910 empathy and about experiencing the world. Um, not only do 0:39:19.910 --> 0:39:24.509 you get to experience somebody else's world, you know, either 0:39:24.510 --> 0:39:29.070 geographically or, you know, a fantastical landscape, but you're also 0:39:29.070 --> 0:39:31.230 experiencing them and their life. 0:39:31.430 --> 0:39:31.790 Mhm. 0:39:31.790 --> 0:39:36.950 Yeah. Um, and it just is. So, um, mind expanding, uh, 0:39:36.989 --> 0:39:38.030 to be able to do that. 0:39:40.140 --> 0:39:44.060 Well, Judith McQuoid, I'm so excited about this book coming out, 0:39:44.420 --> 0:39:48.259 and congratulations. And I hope a whole bunch of people 0:39:48.260 --> 0:39:48.739 read it. 0:39:49.780 --> 0:39:50.620 Thanks, Jonathan. 0:39:53.500 --> 0:39:56.460 The habit Podcast is brought to you by the Rabbit Room, 0:39:56.460 --> 0:40:00.140 where art nourishes community, and community nourishes art. You can 0:40:00.140 --> 0:40:03.540 support their work including this podcast, by becoming a member. 0:40:03.780 --> 0:40:09.620 Visit COVID-19. Special thanks as well to Taylor Leonard for 0:40:09.620 --> 0:40:12.180 letting us use her song diamonds as the theme music 0:40:12.180 --> 0:40:15.180 for The Habit podcast. You can learn more about Taylor 0:40:15.180 --> 0:40:20.140 and follow her work at Taylor Dirt.com The Habit. 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