S1: I learned that my identity is not in what what
S1: happens with what comes out at the end of my pen,
S1: but is actually in my ability to sit back and
S1: listen to it. And if I just follow that, if
S1: I could just not forget to do that, you know,
S1: because it's so easy to forget to do that, I think.
S2: Welcome to the Habit podcast conversations with writers about Writing.
S2: I'm Jonathan Rogers, your host, Judith McQuoid, lives in Belfast,
S2: Northern Ireland, the hometown of C.S. Lewis, or Jax as
S2: he was known when he lived there. Inspired by Belfast,
S2: her love of Lewis and her own family. History. Judith
S2: wrote a middle grade novel about young Jax Lewis and
S2: an imagined friendship with a boy from a very different background.
S2: It's a book about creativity, friendship, and the ways we
S2: can give one another a little more courage and a
S2: little more hope. It was my pleasure to talk to
S2: Judith McQuoid about her new novel, giant. Judith McQuoid, I'm
S2: so glad to have you on The Habit podcast. Thanks
S2: for being here.
S1: Thanks for having me, Jonathan.
S2: Um, so your new book is giant.
S1: That's right.
S2: Tell me about it.
S1: Yeah. So, um, it's set in Belfast in the years
S1: 1908 to 1910. And it's about two boys growing up
S1: in Belfast, um, who were kind of thrown together. Um,
S1: Davey is a shipyard boy. Uh, so from a working
S1: class background, um, um, it's the story of his imagined
S1: friendship with the young C.S. Lewis, who back then and
S1: actually still now in Belfast, is was known as Jack's. Um.
S2: I still call him Jack's.
S1: They do? Yeah. They will correct you if you call
S1: him Jack. They will correct you and say, no, no,
S1: he's Jack's.
S2: Really?
S1: Yeah.
S2: So, um, you've you've been in Belfast most of your life.
S2: Is that fair to say?
S1: Uh, no, probably not actually. Um, we lived in Northern
S1: Ireland till I was seven, and then we moved to
S1: the States for seven years, and then we moved to England. Um,
S1: I came back here to go to university, um, but
S1: then moved back to England, and we only permanently moved
S1: back to Northern Ireland in 2011.
S2: Oh, okay. All right. So have you noticed a difference in, um,
S2: I mean, I've heard that that people in the UK
S2: aren't as interested in C.S. Lewis as Americans. Right. Have
S2: you noticed an increased interest in C.S. Lewis in in
S2: Belfast in the since you've been there?
S1: Yeah. Yeah. There was um. So what date would that
S1: have been? There was an anniversary, probably of his birth. Uh,
S1: that was. Well, that would have been In 1998. So
S1: since about 1998, there has been a little bit of
S1: an increase, um, in interest. Uh, still not enough, I
S1: would say. Um, I think it was Seamus Heaney who said,
S1: like in the 1980s or the 1990s. He said it was,
S1: you know, a revelation to him at that time that
S1: Lewis was even Irish. Yeah. Um, so so it's still
S1: not as big a deal as I would like it
S1: to be.
S2: Yeah. Well, let's talk about that, because, um, most of
S2: us think of Lewis as a as a Oxford, you know, Oxford. Cambridge.
S2: You know, he had that, that plummy accent. Um, and
S2: you in this book, uh, spent a lot of time
S2: thinking about, um, the extent to which Ireland, Northern Ireland
S2: shaped his imagination. And tell me about that. I mean,
S2: how did I how well, the floor is open.
S1: Uh, okay.
S2: However you want to talk about that, I'd love to
S2: hear you talk about it.
S1: Yeah. I mean, I think, um, Lewis himself never considered
S1: himself as English. He always thought of himself as Irish. Um,
S1: and I think other people saw him as Irish as well. Obviously,
S1: Oxford was a massive part of his life. Oxford and
S1: Cambridge were huge parts of his life, and he loved Oxford. Um,
S1: there's a quote from Lewis where he said that, that
S1: I think he was talking to another Irishman and, um,
S1: he said that his idea of heaven would be Oxford, um,
S1: in County Down, um, which was one of his favorite, uh,
S1: areas here. But, um, I think it had a, a huge.
S1: And he didn't he, he left here when he was
S1: very young, but he kept coming back here when he
S1: was in school. He was back here for every school holiday. Um,
S1: when he was an adult. Um, he was back here
S1: at least once a year. Um, throughout his life, right
S1: up until he died. Um, and I think particularly for
S1: me particularly, um, when I read the Narnia stories. Um,
S1: I now read them looking for places and things and
S1: events that are Northern Irish, and I think they are
S1: peppered with, um, references to Ulster. And I don't know
S1: if he was. I think some of that must have
S1: been conscious. I think some of it was probably subconscious. Um,
S1: but it's, it's, it's really interesting as a Northern Irish
S1: person now, I live in back in Northern Ireland, particularly, um,
S1: to read Narnia and just just to have those little
S1: things pop up at you and think, oh my goodness,
S1: that is, I know what that is.
S2: What are some examples?
S1: Um, so one of the most obvious examples, um, is caraval. Um, so, um,
S1: Lewis and his holidays with his mum. Uh, uh, one
S1: of the places that they went to quite a bit
S1: was the north coast of Ireland, and there are a
S1: couple of places on the north coast of Ireland that
S1: clearly influenced, um, the idea of caravel. So, um, Dunluce
S1: Castle is one of my favorite places on the planet,
S1: and I have loved that place since I was tiny. Um, it's, um,
S1: an incredible ruin of a castle from the 1600s. And
S1: that is still standing there on the edge of a cliff.
S1: The kitchen at one point, I think, in the Victorian
S1: times fell into the water. Um, and it's just incredibly atmospheric. Um,
S1: and when you read, um, Prince Caspian, particularly when the, uh,
S1: four siblings, uh, come on, car by rail, but they
S1: don't realise what it is because it's in ruin. It's so, um,
S1: Dunluce Castle, the other place that I think probably did, um,
S1: influence Lewis's imagination is, um, Downhill Demesne, which is not
S1: far from Duluth. Um, a little bit further west. Um, now,
S1: at the time when Lewis was a child, um, Downhill
S1: Demesne actually would have been occupied. It wasn't in ruin,
S1: but it is ruin now. Um, and throughout his life,
S1: Lewis probably noticed, probably witnessed that decline of of that
S1: particular house, which again, is a big sort of manor
S1: house on a near a cliff edge. Um, so.
S2: So you're drawing a parallel between that and parallel also?
S1: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think I think, uh, both
S1: of those probably influenced his, his imagination. Yeah.
S2: Tell me about his, um, he had a, uh, a nursemaid, uh,
S2: I think. Tell me about her.
S1: Yeah. Lizzie? Yeah. Lizzie was from Donegal. Um. And seems
S1: to have been very well versed in Irish fairy tales.
S1: Irish folktales? Um, so she was telling him those folktales
S1: from when he was very young. Um, she went on
S1: holiday with them to Castle Rock, which is at the
S1: north coast, um, and took them to Downhill Demesne, this
S1: old house that fell into ruin. Um, and I, I
S1: and lots of other people think that she did have
S1: and those stories did have a big impact on him
S1: as a child. Um.
S2: Does she appear in, in, uh, your book giant?
S1: He doesn't know she was earlier. Aha. Um, yeah. She
S1: was she was quite young when. When Lizzie was part
S1: of their household.
S2: Yeah. Well, tell me about, uh, where where this book
S2: your book came from. I mean, the what made you
S2: decide to be fun, to write a story about juvenile jacks. Louis.
S1: Yeah. So I grew up with my dad was, um,
S1: pretty obsessed with C.S. Lewis. I think his interest started
S1: during the war with his, um, talk radio talks. Um,
S1: but then, um.
S2: Wow. So your dad remembers the the radio talks that
S2: became mere Christianity?
S1: Yeah.
S2: Yeah.
S1: Yeah. So he heard those on the radio during the war,
S1: and Belfast was very badly affected by the war. After London,
S1: it was the most bombed city. Really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
S1: And not a lot of people know that. Yeah.
S2: No, that's that's the first I've heard of that I
S2: guess because of all the shipyards there.
S1: Yes, yes. Yeah. Um, so, um, when we moved to
S1: America during that time, my dad, uh, was reading me
S1: May the Narnia books at night as bedtime stories.
S2: My first exposure to Narnia books was in the United
S2: States instead of over there.
S1: Yeah. In Amarillo, Texas. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, um. And
S1: he was a performer, you know, he was he was
S1: a a methodist minister. He was very good in the pulpit. Um,
S1: but he was also a comedian, you know, and, um,
S1: he loved performing, and, um, he would do all the voices,
S1: and he was, you know, it was quite the experience. Um, um, and, uh,
S1: but sometimes when he closed the book and he was
S1: about to turn off the light, he would turn around
S1: and say to me, don't you forget he was a
S1: Belfast boy. Um, and that my dad was Belfast boy.
S1: My dad was born Belfast. Um, and I think that
S1: got in my head. And I thinking back now, I
S1: think my dad was only really realising Lewis's Irishness at
S1: that point in his life. Obviously, he knew that. He
S1: knew that Lewis was Irish, but I think he was
S1: the copy of surprised by Joy that I have that
S1: belonged to my dad is an American copy. So I
S1: think that he was kind of delving into Lewis's biography
S1: at about the same time as he was reading minority.
S1: So when my dad passed away, I felt the need
S1: for story to console myself. So I started looking into
S1: my dad's family history, which I'd never really done. But
S1: I was also looking at Lewis's time in Ireland. And
S1: then it suddenly dawned on me that. My grandfather, my
S1: dad's dad, who I'd never known, and C.S. Lewis had
S1: been born in the same part of Belfast at about
S1: the same time. Wow. And that just went off like
S1: a firework in my head. Like I got out a
S1: map and I was looking to see how far away
S1: the two boys were. And, you know, there they were just,
S1: you know, within walking distance of each other. Um, so
S1: that's where it started.
S2: So Davey, the the friend of Jackson in the novel, um,
S2: is his situation in any way similar to your grandfather's situation?
S1: Um, in some ways, yes. There's probably more fiction in
S1: David's part of the story than there is in Jack's. Um,
S1: because I don't know a lot about my grandfather. I
S1: don't know a lot about his childhood. Um, but I
S1: know that he lived in the shipyard area of Belfast,
S1: but somehow managed to avoid working in the shipyard. Um, so, um,
S1: there are some, some bits and pieces in there that
S1: are that are gleaned from his life.
S2: Yeah, yeah. Uh, Lewis's grandfather was kind of a higher
S2: up in the in one of the shipyards. Is that right?
S1: He had a he owned a shipyard? Yes, he.
S2: Owned.
S1: A shipyard. Yeah, he owned, uh, Lewis, um, McIlwaine and Lewis. Lewis. Uh,
S1: it was known as the Way Shipyard and then Harland
S1: and Wolff, which built Titanic. Um, it was known as
S1: the Big Shipyard. Um.
S2: Oh, you said the wee the wee shipyard?
S1: Yeah.
S2: Okay. Yeah. Um. Uh, well, Judith, as as I have
S2: thought about your research, um, and your your book, especially here,
S2: that that your first exposure to Narnia was in Amarillo, Texas,
S2: which is so funny to me. Um, a theme that's
S2: sort of emerging is displacement. You know, you got exposed
S2: to this Belfast boy when you went far away from Belfast. Um,
S2: I the thought of Lewis displaced from this sort of
S2: magical place. He grew up. And, I mean, of course,
S2: Oxford is plenty magical itself, but it was not his home. Yeah.
S2: And and his thinking back to the Irish folk tales,
S2: the Irish landscapes. There's something about that displacement that seems significant. Um,
S2: tell me about that. Did you. Um, we were talking before.
S2: Before we started recording about the idea that how often
S2: writers are, um, they're writing about where they grew up.
S2: Not while they're there, but when they've left.
S1: Mhm. Yeah. And I think that idea of displacement is
S1: very much part of our history as a race. You know,
S1: that the Irish have emigrated all over the world for
S1: various reasons. And I think sometimes the Irish feel more
S1: Irish when they leave Ireland. Do you know, they cling
S1: to their Irishness? Um, and I think that was the
S1: case for Louis. Um. You know, he loved Irish literature.
S1: He loved W.B. Yeats in particular. Um, and I, I
S1: think he, um, he really clung to Irishness as an identity. Um.
S1: I certainly when we were living in Texas, which was
S1: so different from where we had come from, um, the
S1: culture shock was, uh, you know, profound for all five
S1: of us. Um, I think those stories, which now I
S1: realize are so Irish, I think those Narnia stories were
S1: comforting to me because they reminded me of home, you know,
S1: as well as as other writers like L.M. Montgomery. Um.
S1: You know, I was looking for stories that reminded me
S1: of home, but I think I think if you look
S1: at the biography of a lot of writers, a lot
S1: of writers are displaced and a lot of them, Um,
S1: that displacement kind of kicks you out of your own
S1: culture and forces you to have to sit back and
S1: watch and learn, uh, a bit more, maybe, than if
S1: you were feeling comfortable in your own culture, I think.
S2: Yeah, yeah, I know I'm always writing little stories about
S2: Warner Robins, Georgia, where I grew up, and I've wondered
S2: before if I were living there, would I feel the
S2: need to write it down? And just it would just
S2: kind of be every day if I still lived there.
S2: Although the sort of you could say that we're all
S2: as adults, we're always displaced from the world of our childhood. Right?
S1: Yeah.
S2: Um, but but I don't think I would write as
S2: many stories about middle Georgia if I were still there.
S1: Mhm. Yeah. It makes you consider your own roots differently,
S1: I think.
S2: Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it's you remarked that Irish people
S2: feeling more Irish when they are away from Ireland. You know,
S2: I know when I'm saying Washington, D.C. or or visiting
S2: New York City, I run into somebody from the South.
S2: That's let's talk. And I think about people from the
S2: South all the time. Why do I want to talk
S2: to them?
S1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And Lewis in Oxford. Lewis was always
S1: looking for Irish people. Yeah. You know, he was always
S1: seeking out Irish people. Um, Coghill I think was one
S1: of the inklings and he was he was from County Cork,
S1: I think. Yeah. Um, so he was always really happy
S1: to find an Irishman in Oxford.
S2: Yeah. Uh, Judith, you have been working. How long have
S2: you been working on this book?
S1: Uh, ten years.
S2: Ten years?
S1: Yeah. Yeah, but it has had many different forms. So
S1: when I started writing it, I was writing it as
S1: a screenplay. But it turns out I don't know how
S1: to write screenplays. So then, um, then I decided to
S1: go back to what I had a vague idea about.
S1: So I started writing it as a story.
S2: Yeah. Was it. Did you always know it was a novel,
S2: or did you start it as a short story?
S1: No. I always knew it was going to be a novel. Yeah. Yeah.
S1: I don't know how to write short stories.
S2: By the way. Uh, why is this book called giant?
S1: Yeah. Um, it wasn't originally. Originally, it was called Deviant Jack's.
S1: And then my publisher asked me to think about different names.
S1: So we kind of semi settled on the giant of Belfast,
S1: but then we thought that was maybe too geographically tied. Um,
S1: so I like the fact that it's just called giant.
S1: It could of course refer to C.S. Lewis himself. Um,
S1: there are lots of giants in Irish mythology, um, which
S1: come up in the story, um, and the shipyard in
S1: Belfast is also associated with giants. Um because of what
S1: they they create is is so giant. So yeah, there's
S1: there's a few different reasons. Yeah.
S2: Um, and, uh, tell me about these. You mentioned that
S2: it's about a friendship between these two boys. Um, um,
S2: but there's also this sort of. I don't know if
S2: you call it, would you call it magical realism? But
S2: what would you call this, this element of.
S1: Yeah, that's an interesting question. Yeah. I think it steps
S1: right up to the edge of magical realism, I think. Uh, so, um,
S1: one of the major, one of the major changes that
S1: happened to this book along the way is came as
S1: a result of a workshop with you inhabit and three
S1: other members of the habit. Um, and one of the
S1: things you said about it was, you don't need those
S1: magical creatures in there, because originally it did have a
S1: lot of fantastical creatures in it. And after about a
S1: week when I'd recovered from you saying that. I sat
S1: down to look at it, and I. I mean, I
S1: thought it was going to take me months to remove
S1: that layer of fantastical creatures, and it took me. It
S1: only took me weeks. They kind of clicked off the
S1: rest of the manuscript, really. It was weird. Um, and
S1: I was able to rewrite it and replace a lot
S1: of those fantastical creatures got replaced with the books that
S1: Jax and Davy are reading together. Uh, the Jax, the
S1: books that C.S. Lewis actually read when he was a child. Um,
S1: so they kind of, uh, imagine us using those books
S1: as sort of a springboard for their imaginations, but it's
S1: it never steps over the line into magical realism, I
S1: don't think, but just right up to the edge.
S2: Yeah, yeah. And, uh, you know which books Lewis read from?
S2: Just reading. Surprised by Joy. Where do you know? How
S2: do you know what books he read?
S1: Yeah. Um, from his letters and from surprised by Joy. Yeah. So, um. Beatrice. Sorry.
S1: Beatrix Potter was, um, a big favourite. Um, he loved
S1: Mark Twain. Mark Twain's a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's court. Uh,
S1: he says that was his first introduction to King Arthur.
S1: Would you believe it? Really? Yeah. Um, yeah. Um, Jonathan Swift, obviously,
S1: Gulliver's Travels is a big influence, and that's the other
S1: reason why it's called giant, because there's a mountain that
S1: looms over Belfast, um, that is supposed to have inspired
S1: Gulliver's Travels whenever Jonathan Swift spent some time here.
S2: Is, uh. Is it a giant in repose?
S1: Yes.
S2: Yeah.
S1: Yeah.
S2: I think there's a there's a mountain that's described as
S2: a giant in repose and silver chair, isn't there?
S1: You could be right about that. I don't actually know.
S1: That's another thing. I need to look at that.
S2: Um, yeah. Um, that's fun to think about. Him being
S2: influenced by Mark Twain and or at least that he
S2: read Mark Twain. Yeah. And I always like to point
S2: out that Beatrix Potter was, um, influenced by, um, Uncle Remus,
S2: you know, the the the really?
S1: Really.
S2: Yeah. She, she read those and loved the, the pictures. Now,
S2: I can't remember the name of the illustrator who did
S2: those pictures of Br'er Rabbit and and Br'er Fox. Oh, wow. And, um.
S2: And so she's she's so you think of what could
S2: be more, more British Beatrix Potter. But it's fun to
S2: think that that she practiced. She did some illustrations of
S2: Br'er Rabbit.
S1: No way.
S2: Before she, you know, decided to to make her rabbit
S2: a little English rabbit.
S1: I did not know that I love that, I absolutely
S1: love that. I've spent a 3 or 4 years ago,
S1: we spent some time, uh, we spent a week, um,
S1: very near where Beatrix Potter lived, um, swimming in a lake. And, um,
S1: was hanging out at her college. Um, yeah. And that's
S1: a million miles away from Br'er Rabbit.
S2: Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And of course, Br'er Rabbit was, uh,
S2: the next county over from, uh, Flannery O'Connor. Uh, of.
S1: Course. Yeah.
S2: So I think now we found out that Flannery O'Connor
S2: influenced C.S. Lewis.
S1: Yeah, yeah, we knew we'd get there.
S2: We'd get there eventually.
S1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S2: Um, okay, now, would you mind telling the story of,
S2: of the, the arduous journey of this book to publication?
S1: Yeah. So it's been a bit of a roller coaster. Really? Um,
S1: so I thought my book was ready, um, sort of
S1: 2019 time. So I sent it out to a publisher. Um,
S1: and the first one said, yes, um, first one. So
S1: the first one. Yeah. So, um, early 20. No, early 2021.
S1: That was, um, I signed a contract. Um, they said
S1: it would take about two years, as it normally does. Um,
S1: so we were kind of working on it, but not,
S1: not not a lot. Um, and then a few couple
S1: of months before it was due to be published, they
S1: emailed me and said that because of their financial situation,
S1: they weren't going to be able to publish it anymore. Um,
S1: so I was back to square one, really. Um, so
S1: I went from being Debbie writer back to housewife. In
S1: the course of reading an email, which was yeah, it
S1: taught me a lot about identity and, um. What you
S1: rest in, um, but it was good for me. I
S1: picked myself up off the ground, and I got myself
S1: an agent. Um. And, um, he started sending it out.
S1: And then eventually, about a year later, um, my Irish
S1: publisher opened for submissions for two weeks. Um, we got
S1: it in. Um, they said they loved it. So I've
S1: ended up with this wonderful, small but mighty Irish publisher.
S1: I think this is the first time anything about Lewis
S1: has been published in the Republic of Ireland.
S2: Wow.
S1: Um. And back in 1917, Lewis was writing to his
S1: Belfast friend Arthur, and he said that he would love
S1: for his stuff to be published in Dublin. Um, which
S1: never happened, obviously. Um, so yeah, it's interesting.
S2: So your publishing house is in Dublin? Yes. The Republic
S2: of Ireland. Not not Northern Ireland. Yeah. Um, are there
S2: publishers in in Belfast in Northern Ireland?
S1: Um, there are small publishers. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S2: Yeah. Um, well, I'd love to tell me more about
S2: what you learned about identity from getting your book dropped.
S1: Uh, yeah. So that day, the email day. Um, I,
S1: I don't know what I was doing in the morning, but, um,
S1: I really felt that I should go out in the garden.
S1: We had a tent. I think we were having a
S1: heat wave. Sometimes it's easier because we have. We don't
S1: have aircon. Right? So we, um. Sometimes it's easier to
S1: sleep outside than it is inside, um, when it's really hot. Um,
S1: so we had a tent outside in the garden, and
S1: I just felt that I should go outside and just
S1: sit in the tent. And as I entered the tent,
S1: I just felt the presence of God really, really powerfully. Um,
S1: and I just felt like everything was going to be okay,
S1: even though I thought everything was okay. And then later on,
S1: it was later on that evening when I got the email, um,
S1: from the publisher to say they weren't going to be
S1: able to do it. And I immediately connected that to
S1: what had happened earlier on in the day in the garden. Um,
S1: so I just I had this really funny reaction to
S1: that email where I was upset, but also, oh, hang on,
S1: this is this is an adventure that I'm on. This
S1: is like I am letting go of something I thought was.
S1: Set in place for me. I, I'm letting I've, I
S1: have to let go of that and I have to
S1: not hold on to that. Um, and in the process
S1: of getting it out to other publishers, you know, that
S1: whole whirlwind of submissions, um, you learn that if you
S1: don't get it published, it's okay. You know, that actually,
S1: you learn to listen. I think I learned I really
S1: impatient by nature Guitar, and I have learned through that
S1: whole experience the wonders of waiting on the Lord. Um,
S1: of just saying I am inadequate and insufficient for this.
S1: And I will lay this down if you want me to.
S1: But actually, every single time I offered to lay it down,
S1: he told me to pick it back up again, like,
S1: every single time. Um, so it's I think I learned
S1: that my identity is not in what, what happens with
S1: what comes out at the end of my pen, but
S1: is actually in my ability to sit back and listen
S1: and to wait. And if I just follow that, if
S1: I could just not forget to do that, you know? Yeah. Um,
S1: because it's so easy to forget to do that, I think.
S2: Yeah. When you talk about waiting, Um, to what extent
S2: is that relevant to the actual creative process, and to
S2: what extent are you just talking about the sort of
S2: I mean, obviously with regard to publishing and things like that,
S2: I see how that applies. Maybe that's what you're talking about,
S2: but are you talking about the actual work of writing also?
S1: Yeah, I think I probably am. Um. Not just writing,
S1: but also editing. I find, um, maybe even more so
S1: in the editing process. So it's things like, I really
S1: wanted the two boys in the story to go and
S1: see an early film together, um, like a silent film,
S1: and I, um. I really wanted them to go and
S1: see a George Melies movie. So I started looking at, um,
S1: George Melies movies, and then I discovered that he made
S1: a movie of. Gulliver's Travels and Gulliver's Travels was already
S1: in there, and I just thought that. But it felt
S1: like that just landed in my lap. You know, um,
S1: during the editing process, that it. It's like a wedding,
S1: but then also a discovering kind of thing. And I
S1: suppose that waiting there is something about finding treasure that
S1: is like waiting as well. Do you know? Um.
S2: Tell me.
S1: About that. I find the writing process is a discovery.
S1: Process feels more like discovery to me than creating. Um,
S1: it feels more like the more I just put pen
S1: to paper. The more that I am pushing on doorways,
S1: the more that things are given to me. And that
S1: it's sometimes that sometimes that is out of my own imagination. Okay.
S1: My my own experiences, you know, you can see that
S1: in there, but there are also things in there. Sometimes
S1: I read that story back and I think, well, where
S1: did I how did I get to that? You know,
S1: and I, I think some of those things I was given.
S2: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Um the I'm actually going to be
S2: talking to somebody in later this morning in another podcast. Mhm.
S2: Um I ran across an idea in a book by
S2: Warren Kinghorn. Um who he pointed out that for Plato
S2: an idea was something outside you And so if I
S2: have an idea, it's really that something in, in my
S2: mind is conforming itself to a reality that's out, that's outside.
S2: And since, you know, the enlightenment or whatever, we've come
S2: to think of an idea as something that happens inside
S2: your head, right?
S1: Yeah.
S2: And I think it's, you know, I think what you're
S2: talking about there may be relevant to that, you know,
S2: that you of course, there's something going on inside your
S2: head when you have these ideas. Um, but maybe it's
S2: not just going on inside your head. Mhm.
S1: Yeah. Yeah. And I think I love this idea of
S1: the coding of story as well that, you know, we,
S1: we absorb our culture and we absorb all those stories
S1: that we read and we absorb all our experiences. And
S1: then when we write all of that pours out of
S1: us somehow, you know? Um, a family member has recently
S1: read Giant. And I said, I said, I said, how
S1: much of our family like the the my childhood family,
S1: how much it feels like that. And I had I
S1: had no idea that it would feel like that, you know.
S2: Yeah. I wonder, um. When you speak of the all
S2: your cultural influences going into that cauldron. Um, I don't
S2: mean this isn't a this isn't a question. I don't
S2: I don't know what it is, but maybe you have
S2: something to say about it. Your your cultural experience just
S2: from being across the ocean from me. You know, we
S2: have a lot. There's plenty of overlap in our cultural experience.
S2: We've had a lot of books and that kind of thing. Um,
S2: but I wonder I wonder how that what that means,
S2: how that makes its way out into what you've written. Because, um,
S2: I love that insight that your family member said that
S2: this feels like you're. Of course it does. What else
S2: could it? What else are you going to write?
S1: Yeah. Yeah. And I think I think it's it's sometimes
S1: it's tiny things, isn't it? I think as writers. We
S1: get really fruitful when we focus on tiny things.
S3: Oh, tell me about that.
S1: Um, so I, I spend a good chunk of my
S1: morning did it this morning walking the family and with
S1: my collie dog. Um. There is some sort of connection
S1: between how much attention I pay to, um. What stage
S1: the cow parsley is at. Yeah. How green the grass is. Yeah.
S1: Where the oak leaves are at. And my creative productivity.
S1: Later on in the day, there is some sort of
S1: connection between that focus on small, beautiful things and my creativity.
S1: And I don't understand. But it's as if, um, that
S1: focus on the small and the beautiful creates fertility somehow
S1: in my imagination. Yeah. And it also connects me to
S1: my childhood. Because those those that Lee and I walk
S1: in the morning is the same sort of lanes I
S1: walked when I was a kid. And it connects me
S1: back to my childhood. And I think the same thing
S1: was happening with Lewis. You know, I think he was
S1: writing out of the leaf mold of his mind. Um,
S1: out of all of those Irish and English experiences, um,
S1: to create something beautiful.
S2: I'm interested in thinking about. What's the relevance of the
S2: fact that it's the same lane every day that you're walking?
S2: You know, that's that's where you get to start noticing
S2: the small things. Yeah. Um, and, you know, when you
S2: when you go on tour, you know, when you, when
S2: you're a tourist, you're noticing the big, you know, there's the,
S2: there's the pyramid and there's. Yeah, Big Ben, you know, and, and, uh,
S2: and when you walk the same lane every day and
S2: there's nothing big to notice anymore that you haven't noticed before,
S2: you start noticing the little things.
S1: Yeah, absolutely. And that that I noticed that process in
S1: me actually during lockdown because as a family, we were
S1: walking the same lanes because there was nothing else to do. Um,
S1: because we were, you know, we were geographically confined. We
S1: weren't allowed to leave the village or whatever. Um, but
S1: suddenly we knew at what time of the year the
S1: cow parsley comes in bloom. And when the speedwell flowers
S1: come in bloom. And we were brought back to that
S1: simplicity of of nature and of seasons and of growth
S1: and of slowness. Um. Uh. That was a it was
S1: a beautiful thing, I think.
S3: Yeah.
S2: Yeah. I had the same experience here. I started noticing,
S2: you know, which kind of birds.
S3: Yeah.
S2: Live here?
S3: Yeah. Yeah.
S2: All right. Well, um. That's so good. Thank you. Judith.
S2: I want to hear from you. Hopefully you're ready for
S2: this question. Who are the writers that make you want
S2: to write?
S1: So I could say Lewis and Tolkien, but actually, I
S1: find them quite intimidating.
S3: Mhm. Yeah.
S1: And if I spent too long thinking about the wonders
S1: of their work, then I probably never would work. Would write. Um,
S1: so I'm going to say Ellen Montgomery, because she was
S1: a massive influence on me as a child as well.
S1: And she reminded me of home, and she feels much
S1: more attainable. Um, and I'm actually going to say, also,
S1: I don't read much nonfiction, but I love anything that
S1: Katherine Rundell writes about writing. Um, so her tiny little book, uh,
S1: called Why You Should Write Children's, Why You Should Read
S1: Children's Fiction book, even though you are so old and
S1: wise is just fantastic.
S3: Okay.
S1: Absolutely brilliant. Um, just makes me want to write as
S1: many hours in a day as I can.
S2: Is Katherine Rundell the one who wrote the the John
S2: Donne book?
S1: Yes, I think she is. Yeah. She's an Oxford scholar.
S3: Um.
S1: Yeah, but she also writes children's fiction.
S3: Okay. Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah.
S2: All right. I'm glad you mentioned her.
S1: No, she's. She's amazing on children's fiction.
S3: Okay.
S2: Give me real just a couple of things from that
S2: book that got you excited.
S1: Um, that children's fiction is is about things like wonder
S1: and awe that aren't always in adult fiction.
S3: Mhm.
S1: Um, and that they are about children's fiction is about, um,
S1: empathy and about experiencing the world. Um, not only do
S1: you get to experience somebody else's world, you know, either
S1: geographically or, you know, a fantastical landscape, but you're also
S1: experiencing them and their life.
S3: Mhm.
S1: Yeah. Um, and it just is. So, um, mind expanding, uh,
S1: to be able to do that.
S2: Well, Judith McQuoid, I'm so excited about this book coming out,
S2: and congratulations. And I hope a whole bunch of people
S2: read it.
S1: Thanks, Jonathan.
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