S1: Whether they're regrets or failures or inadequacies or those limitations
S1: that I wish weren't there. They're still there, right? But
S1: there is a truer thing, which is that the Holy
S1: Spirit is at work doing marvelous things through a guy
S1: even like me. And what can I do but say, Lord,
S1: thank you for that. Show me the next thing.
S2: Welcome to the Habit podcast conversations with writers about writing.
S2: I'm Jonathan Rogers, your host, and a midsummer Night's Dream. Theseus,
S2: that paragon of left brain thinking, remarks that the seething
S2: brains of poets like those of lovers and lunatics, apprehend
S2: more than cool reason ever comprehends. He means it as
S2: a criticism. But the poets I know would agree with him.
S2: They spend their days reaching out toward things that cool
S2: reason will never comprehend. As hamlet told Horatio, there are
S2: more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of
S2: in your philosophy. The poet Robert Cording says that we
S2: live in a world that is untranslatable and unexplainable, but
S2: still intelligible. I don't know any better reason to write
S2: or to read poetry. Ben Halpern is a lover of poetry,
S2: for reasons that will become apparent in the following discussion.
S2: On assignment from the Rabbit room, Ben sat down to
S2: interview a few poets to pick their seething brains, as
S2: Theseus would have it. He liked it so much he
S2: interviewed a few more, then a few more, and when
S2: he had interviewed 17 poets, he collected those interviews into
S2: a book called An Axe for the Frozen Sea. Conversations
S2: with poets about what matters most. It's a fascinating look
S2: into the minds and hearts of poets who work out
S2: of gratitude, out of abundance, sometimes out of grief, never
S2: out of grievance. I always love talking to Ben Philpott,
S2: and I think you're going to enjoy listening in on
S2: our conversation. Ben, I'm so happy to have you on
S2: the Habit podcast again to talk about an axe for
S2: the frozen sea.
S1: I'm so glad to be back, Jonathan. I am a
S1: huge fan of everything, the habit and everything. Jonathan Rogers.
S1: You're doing great work.
S2: Well. Thank you. Uh, I really love that. An axe
S2: for the frozen sea. These interviews are so good. Um,
S2: how about you talk about, uh, where this book came from?
S2: What it is. What's this book about? And why did
S2: you put it together?
S1: Yeah, well, I'm glad you really like it. Um, to
S1: tell the truth, Jonathan, I'm the most unlikeliest candidate to
S1: write this book ever. Uh, when I was growing up,
S1: I thought poetry was something for teachers to prank kids
S1: with so I could fail every quiz. And I thought
S1: poets were just trying to sound obscure and out of
S1: touch with reality. They just never really crossed the bridge
S1: for me. So as a teenage boy, I if you
S1: told me, look, someday you're going to spend your 40s
S1: talking to poets and even writing poetry. I would have
S1: just run for The Hills Called you a liar and
S1: other filthy names. But, um, here I am. And so
S1: the journey to that is its own story. But really,
S1: I give full credit to the rabbit room. You know,
S1: they had this idea. What if. What if someone interviewed
S1: poets for the Substack and asked me if I would
S1: be interested, and I said, sure, I'd love to do that.
S1: And then found three poets in my area. So Scott Cairns,
S1: Misha Willette and Lucy Shaw over in Seattle and drove
S1: over there and said, well, let's just take a crack
S1: at this thing. And I was probably in the second interview.
S1: So moved by the first one and so deeply enriched
S1: by it and then having it happen, the second interview
S1: that I thought, these are really, really special and it's
S1: not really because of me. Honestly, I feel like I'm
S1: swept up in something much bigger than me. It's really
S1: the gift of being in the presence of really thoughtful, um,
S1: perceptive and gifted people and then just asking the right
S1: question at the right time. So this book, I think
S1: we were probably halfway through. There are 17 poets, and
S1: we were halfway through it when Rabbit Room and I
S1: agreed that this this was a really worth putting into
S1: a book at some point. And I'm just absolutely gobsmacked
S1: that I'm the one with the name on the front,
S1: because this isn't really my book. It's it's all these really,
S1: really incredible people, and I'm just lucky to have been
S1: in their presence, honestly.
S2: I understand that right. I feel like in this capacity
S2: as a podcaster. Interviewer. You're just teeing people up to
S2: to do great things. And so, um, I feel the
S2: same way about my name being on the podcast because
S2: it's the it's the the guests who do all the work.
S1: So yeah, but it's it's such a beautifully humble place
S1: to stay. Um, there were times in the interviews, you'll,
S1: you'll you'll appreciate this when the interview with Li-young Lee
S1: was so multiple ones like like this, where I just
S1: felt so small in the best way possible. I just
S1: couldn't believe that I was that God had orchestrated things
S1: such that little old me happened to be the one.
S1: When all of these things are happening to these poets
S1: and and deep, deep conversations that I just couldn't believe it.
S1: I felt so small that I wanted to stay that
S1: small the rest of my life. It was that kind
S1: of small. Not like a deprecation where you're like, well,
S1: who am I? I have that Up funny, but it's
S1: really the kind of small that makes you feel like, okay, Lord,
S1: do this as much as possible. Use. If you're going
S1: to use me in this way, it's the the loaves
S1: and fish kind of moment where, you know, we don't
S1: know that kid's name.
S3: But yeah.
S1: I can imagine being that kid and saying, well, it's
S1: what I got. I don't know what you can do
S1: with this. And then to watch that unfold. Yeah. My goodness,
S1: that little boy had to have just been amazed, right?
S3: It took a certain.
S2: Amount of, um, naivete to hand over those fish, you know,
S2: and it took a certain amount of, uh, being out
S2: of touch with the status quo.
S1: That's right. Well, and just the willingness to say, this
S1: is what I got, it's it's, um, you know, we
S1: want to be more than we actually are. So there's
S1: this temptation to grandstand a little bit and say, well,
S1: you know, I've got this thing. It's pretty great. But
S1: when you've got just this little lunch pail and you go,
S1: that's all I God, man. Jonathan. That's how I feel
S1: a lot. And I just feel blessed that God would
S1: multiply those loaves and fish. It's incredible.
S2: Yeah. One thing I think about sometimes is the idea of,
S2: you know, one definition of the habit of a habit
S2: is the way a, a plant is inclined to grow.
S2: You know, a vine habit or a bush habit or
S2: a I can't remember. The other habits are. But anyway,
S2: you know, that habit is a limitation, but it's also
S2: a form into which it can grow into itself. And um,
S2: and so as you're talking about feeling small and, and,
S2: and offering what you have to offer, that kind of
S2: feels like, you know, you acknowledging that, that whatever limits
S2: you have are not failures, they're just your limits. And
S2: and thank goodness for limits that give you an idea of,
S2: of what you have to contribute.
S1: Yeah. No. Amen to that. I, I don't remember who
S1: the French writer was, but they say he's the French
S1: equivalent of, Um, one of your favorites? Flannery O'Connor. Mauriac. Mauriac.
S1: He said, I don't I never picked my my color palette.
S1: It it's just who I am. Yeah. And I couldn't
S1: write something else. Even tried. Yeah. So those limitations, accepting
S1: the fact that I'm not Tolkien, uh, growing up in
S1: with such an adoration for Tolkien and Lewis and all
S1: these others and then, you know, working in the classical
S1: Christian school movement for the last 25 years, it's easy
S1: to start thinking, well, all the great works are, you know,
S1: long gone, all the great artists are long gone. And
S1: one of my hopes for this book is for people
S1: to realize, know that there's great work happening right now, really,
S1: really incredible work. And all you have to do is, um,
S1: recognize and this does take maybe a lifetime, but gradually
S1: accept those limitations. This is who I am and this
S1: is the these are the stories God has given me
S1: to steward. But this is less about the writing. Life
S1: is less about putting your name on the book, um,
S1: or getting some kind of recognition. And it's more about
S1: stewarding the stories and the gifts that God has given
S1: to you. I would even say there's a great pressure
S1: to find your voice, which I think is a bit
S1: of a it's misleading. It takes people down, I think,
S1: a wrong road, because then they try to find some
S1: great voice. Well, your voice just comes when you've written
S1: 1000 hours worth of writing, right? And often it starts
S1: by simply imitating the people you go, I wish I
S1: sounded more like so Lucy Shaw, for example. I remember
S1: reading her 20 years ago and thinking, my goodness, she's
S1: so she's so good and so thoughtful. But her prose
S1: was so inviting, so hospitable that I remember back then
S1: having no seed of an idea that I would ever
S1: write someday, thinking if I ever wrote someday, I want
S1: to sound like Lucy Shaw. Yeah. And that's all it is, right?
S1: So I imitated her in some of my early work
S1: and thought, how would Lucy say this? Yeah. Now she's
S1: in this beautiful book, and I got to talk to
S1: Lucy Shaw. How did that happen?
S2: What are the characteristics of prose? Or for that matter,
S2: poetry that you find hospitable?
S1: Well, I wish I had some great definition for that.
S1: A hospitable place to me is a place where I
S1: want to stay. What I don't mean by a hospitable,
S1: by a hospitable place, is a place that's simply safe
S1: or beautiful or easy. Because you put me in a
S1: hospitable place with people who I love. And they can
S1: they can tell me where I'm wrong. They can. They
S1: can point my flaws, and I'll accept them much easier
S1: because it's a hospitable place. So I think some of
S1: that is the art of world making some of that.
S1: But I think the majority of that is a heart posture.
S1: It starts with the poet or the author having a
S1: posture of hospitality and saying, I want to make this
S1: place welcoming, you know, the Italian word for stanza. This
S1: came up in Angelo Donald's, um, interview. In the book
S1: we talk about the Italian word for stanza means little room.
S2: Really?
S1: Yeah. I didn't know that until I'd read an article
S1: right before our interview. And I thought, well, Angela's work is,
S1: you know, these all these poets write very different styles.
S1: Some of them are very sonnet focused. Some of them
S1: are a little more loose, but but they're all very,
S1: very intentional about their work. And for each one of them,
S1: I can say I picked them because I found their
S1: work to be hospitable in some form. I wanted to
S1: stay in the poem as long as possible. And this
S1: is true of fiction too. The works I love the most,
S1: even if they're not a place I would like to
S1: go because there's so much heartache. Yeah, there's still a
S1: tone about it that makes me want to stay. And
S1: I think that begins with the author and the poet.
S1: I don't think it starts with saying, how do I
S1: make this place beautiful? First, it's a hard posture. Yeah.
S1: So there's a book. When I went to Kentucky two
S1: years ago called Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara Jonathan in
S1: that book, I read that on one flight back. I
S1: picked it up at a bookstore there in Kentucky and
S1: read it all the way home. And I was not,
S1: you know, he's talking about, um, the story of how
S1: he went from wanting to build a restaurant to making
S1: one of the best restaurants in the world, which I
S1: would think means, you know, here are expensive, expensive plates
S1: and you've got everything's high end, right? Everything's got to
S1: be elegant. And the end result of this is he
S1: learned that you just have to love people and actually
S1: genuinely love them. And his restaurant is known for the
S1: way that they anticipate your need, love you and make
S1: you walk away going, gosh, I wish this night would
S1: never end. So if I I'm not going to ever,
S1: you know, make a restaurant like that. But in my
S1: own home, I want to have a tone where people
S1: want to stay, right? They just want to be there
S1: and they feel as comfortable as possible. And some of
S1: that requires really a real attention to the details. So yes.
S1: Should I have laundry on the on the kitchen island?
S1: Probably not. Right. But um, so if I were to
S1: take this for your Listeners, the writing that we do,
S1: all of the little details that we tend to forget
S1: matter like commas, grammar, the cover, the even the font size,
S1: all of those details that a publisher should care about.
S1: Those things are they matter. They you know, I love
S1: what rabbit room does the the work they put out
S1: an axe for the frozen sea feels. Yeah. Hospitable. Before
S1: you even open it. Yeah. And all of the attention
S1: to detail matters. But really, it's a hard posture, I think.
S2: Yeah, I love it. Well, okay. A theme that kept
S2: coming up in your interviews that I thought might be
S2: fun to talk about is the idea of Abundance Overflow.
S2: Scott Cairns. Yeah. Yeah.
S1: Talking about the little boy at the end on the
S1: front porch. Yeah. One of my. I have so many
S1: favorite moments in this. Um, every interview had its own
S1: surprise for me that I thought, oh, this is just
S1: I don't want to ever forget it. Scott was at
S1: the very end when he, um, we were talking about
S1: his poem idiot Psalm two. Um, let me turn to
S1: it here. Okay, so this is the last stanza of
S1: idiot Psalm two. He says, make me to awaken daily
S1: with a willingness to roll out readily, accompanied by grateful smirk,
S1: a giddy joy, the idiot's undying expectation. Despite the evidence.
S1: I wrote that down years ago in my journal. I
S1: told Scott that has been in my journal, and I
S1: look to it pretty regularly because the evidence, the evidence
S1: is abundant, that life is hard and the world is broken,
S1: and there's so much loss and so much to grieve.
S1: But if I spend all my time on that side
S1: of the ledger, then I won't actually fill up the
S1: other side, which is God's abundant blessings which smoke, smoke
S1: the other side of the ledger. And if I practice
S1: the gratitude on this side, then it puts perspective on
S1: the other side of the ledger. So I brought that
S1: up to him and he said, look, Ben, I'm just
S1: I wrote that poem for me, which is a common
S1: theme with all these poets. They're not really writing for
S1: an audience. They're writing for themselves. Yeah. Uh, he said,
S1: I remember being a little boy and we were. It
S1: was winter night, snow on the ground, and the family
S1: had to pack up. It was dark out, but being little,
S1: there's not much to pack. Yeah, he said. I went
S1: out on the front step and he said, I remember
S1: the crunch of the snow beneath my feet and he
S1: looked up in the sky was crystalline winter, you know,
S1: stars are so close you can almost touch them. And
S1: he can see his breath in the air. He said
S1: out loud, I love life. And, uh, he said, I
S1: just want to hold on to that. The older I get,
S1: the harder it gets to hold on to that. Well,
S1: that's so true, right? The older we get, it's easier
S1: to get bitter and remember all the hard things. But
S1: hanging on to that little boy inside of us. That
S1: little girl that just loved life. Boy, that's a full
S1: time job. Yeah, but that's part of the abundance. That's
S1: the overflow of the heart. And that little boy was
S1: standing in the overflow of God's abundant blessing. Right. And
S1: just acknowledging I love life.
S2: Just that phrase. Despite the evidence. I think all writers
S2: need to have that.
S1: Amen.
S2: Written.
S1: Yeah, it's not actually the you know, we tend to think, well,
S1: the reality is the world's broken. Well, that's true on
S1: the one hand. Right. There's a lot of things that,
S1: you know, Flannery O'Connor going back to one of our
S1: mutual favorites. She she shines a full on blast light
S1: on the reality of the brokenness of the human spirit,
S1: of the human being. But there is a break with
S1: reality when we forget what God's actually at work doing.
S2: Yeah, that's true. And there's something a lot truer than
S2: the brokenness.
S1: That's right.
S2: I appreciate so many of these poets talked about. A
S2: lot of times it was in terms of gratitude, but
S2: getting in touch with what was truer than this evidence
S2: that we detect with our senses that things are pretty
S2: jacked up around here.
S1: That's right. Yeah. You know, I think of Marilyn Nelson's
S1: interview at the very end of her interview, and this
S1: is a woman who's gone through so much sorrow, right? And, um,
S1: not just personal sorrow, but cultural, societal upheaval. Um, and
S1: at the end of her interview, she shared a story
S1: about crossing the street when she was a teenage girl.
S1: This little black teenage girl walking across the street and
S1: here comes this white man across the way. So this
S1: is in a time of a lot of societal upheaval, race, upheaval. And, um,
S1: the man's walking straight. They're going to pretty much bump
S1: into each other. And right when he gets to her,
S1: he looks her right in the eye and says, you
S1: are beautiful. And then he just kept walking. Well, Marilyn's
S1: never forgotten that moment, right? And which of us? None
S1: of us would. How many of us need that even
S1: to this day? The affirmation that you are a great
S1: idea that God had. And I'm lucky to just pass
S1: you on the street. Right? All these shining faces. I
S1: just wish I could hold on to that more often. Um,
S1: those are those little moments that God gives us if
S1: we have eyes to see them. and we need to
S1: actually cultivate those eyes that help us to see the
S1: truer thing. Right? Because I wake up and I look
S1: in the mirror and I go, wow, you're still here.
S1: And all of the things that, you know, whether they're
S1: regrets or failures or inadequacies or those limitations that I
S1: wish weren't there, they're still there, right? But there is
S1: a truer thing, which is that the Holy Spirit is
S1: at work doing marvelous things through a guy even like
S1: me and I. What can I do but say, Lord,
S1: thank you for that, but show me the next thing.
S2: Mhm. Yeah. The poets you talk to are people who
S2: have practiced paying attention to those things. Yeah. Your subtitle
S2: is conversations with poets about what matters most. It's not
S2: just conversations about technique or or craft. These are conversations
S2: that reveal that the craft and the technique is a
S2: means toward abundant life. Toward. Toward a fuller, fuller life.
S2: Anything happen in these conversations to to change the way
S2: you think about everything.
S1: That's every single one of the conversations. Yeah. I'm finding
S1: in interviews that it's really hard to actually answer that
S1: question because I want I feel like I'm cheating when
S1: I say, well, every single one. So I do need
S1: to pick, but it's hard to pick. And people who
S1: read the book are already acknowledging that each one has
S1: its unique thing that meant the most to them. But
S1: you know, on one level there is only one important.
S1: You know, if we were to take the subtitle and say,
S1: conversations with poets about what matters most, what matters most
S1: is Jesus Christ. But what I love about these, these
S1: conversations is that Jesus Christ went into every corner of
S1: of their experience and of their thought and of their craft.
S1: So he's not simply The Savior, Jesus Christ. He's the
S1: one who's changing everything, right? So what I tried to
S1: do with each of these conversations is read and watch
S1: all of their interviews, which with some of them is
S1: staggering because they've they've got 100 plus, um, so that
S1: I could ask them a question, at least a handful
S1: of questions they hadn't been asked before. And that's how
S1: I felt like I could honour them best. Yeah. And
S1: then try to figure out by reading their work and
S1: listening to the interviews, what are the things that matter
S1: most to them? So by example, you know, Robert courting
S1: lost his son and he wrote an entire book of
S1: poetry about that. I don't know many. Yeah, it's not
S1: like I know everything out there. But for somebody to
S1: be willing to sit in that space of grief long
S1: enough to write that many poems This takes an incredible
S1: amount of courage and strength of heart to stay there.
S1: Most of us would rather talk about anything else. Yeah,
S1: so I knew that that's the topic I wanted to
S1: talk about, but I wasn't sure he wanted to talk about.
S1: And what a heartfelt joy to sit with him in
S1: that space together and remember his son, and talk about
S1: the way grief shapes us and how he worked the craft,
S1: how the craft and his experience overlapped. Um, Dana Gioia
S1: for as another example, Dana Gioia is every every interview
S1: is going to talk about his cultural analysis or the
S1: essays he's written about poetry and his work in the
S1: white House. And, you know, all of those things are
S1: are an incredible gift to the rest of us. But
S1: I noticed that in all of his interviews, very rarely
S1: did a did his property come up his his acreage,
S1: and whenever it did, it was for basically a sentence
S1: or two. And I heard or read a, a different
S1: kind of Dana Gioia. And it seemed to me that
S1: this was a missed opportunity for these interviewers. They were
S1: so dead set on their own questions that they weren't
S1: actually listening to the thing that moved him most. So
S1: it was a little risky for me to say, I
S1: know that what I should be asking you about is
S1: all of this great, all these great accomplishments and your
S1: thoughts on the current state of poetry and but are
S1: you okay if we talk about your acreage? And he
S1: was so lit up by that that it confirmed this
S1: really did shape him. He said his acreage has had
S1: an outsized influence on his life, and nobody really knows
S1: that because they think it's all this other stuff? But
S1: what really moves Dana Gioia is that acreage. And I
S1: think each of these interviews has that kind of humanizing
S1: deep spot where we were able to touch on something
S1: that really mattered to them most. And that's why I
S1: chose that subtitle. It just felt like it covered the
S1: heart of each of these conversations.
S2: Yeah. To return to Robert Korting for a minute, I
S2: didn't know Robert Korting until I read his interview here,
S2: and it was just amazing to know that a man
S2: who lost his son, you know, can say something like,
S2: like this at the heart of life is the choice
S2: to embrace God's work, even at great personal cost. My
S2: work as a poet, my relationships, my daily decisions depend
S2: upon embracing the God who makes and will always make
S2: as an overflow of love.
S1: And yeah, Jonathan, that that was both convicting and motivating
S1: at the same time, because We live in a world
S1: that is so rife with conflict that it's almost our
S1: only mode of operation, and we don't know how to
S1: actually create out of an overload or out of an
S1: overflow of love. But yes, God made all of this
S1: out of an overflow of love. We're sitting in the
S1: in the overflow of that. Yeah, great. Great blessing. And
S1: if that's true, then what am I doing? It was
S1: Li-young Lee who said that many poets, and especially American poets,
S1: he feels, start from a place of grievance rather than grief. Robert.
S1: Courting started with grief. Yeah. Grief actually is a is
S1: a in some respects a gift, I think, from the Lord.
S1: A way to handle the brokenness that is just part
S1: of reality. But grievance stifles creativity and grievance warps the
S1: end product. I think that what Robert has done has
S1: given us a great gift, which is himself in grief
S1: and grievance. Yeah, he is not coming to God. And, uh,
S1: saying this is a break from who you are as God.
S1: He's saying even the loss of my son as broken
S1: and heart wrenching as that is, even that is making
S1: something new. God is always in the act of of
S1: renewing and making something more life, not less life, and
S1: even loss like that. When we stand in, it feels
S1: like the floor has gone out from under us. God's
S1: actually doing something beautiful. Years ago, somebody told me, um,
S1: when I was going through my own health crisis, he said, Ben,
S1: I think you might be despising the chrysalis.
S2: Huh?
S1: That has stuck with me all these years. Don't despise
S1: the chrysalis. If you open the chrysalis where transformation is happening,
S1: you'll just find goo. There's nothing admirable about it. And
S1: in fact, if you try to let the butterfly out early,
S1: it's not strong enough to actually become this beautiful thing
S1: that we go, wow, isn't that lovely? So even the chrysalis,
S1: even that is God doing something out of an overflow
S1: of love? Yeah, I wish, I hope to hang on
S1: to that as a as a writer. And I think
S1: that most artists really need to fight for that. It's
S1: not something that will come naturally, because every single moment
S1: of every single day, we're barraged with the opposite.
S2: Yeah. Something else that that Robert Cording said, um, that
S2: I'm still chewing on. And I'd love to hear you.
S2: You comment on it. Um. He says we live in
S2: a world that is untranslatable, unexplainable, but intelligible. When he.
S2: When I read that, I thought, that's where poets live,
S2: where the world is unexplainable, untranslatable. And yet they go
S2: in there anyway, and they give us something that's intelligible.
S2: And that's also why I feel like my resistance to
S2: that makes me feel like the writing of poetry feels
S2: to me like something beyond what I can do. And
S2: I think maybe it's because I want a clarity and
S2: a clarification that says, I'll translate something for you, and
S2: if I can't translate it, I'll do something else. You know,
S2: I'll watch TV.
S1: Yeah, yeah. No, I totally get that. I mean, you're
S1: appealing to the little the teenage boy in me there especially. But,
S1: you know, one of the things I asked Robert about
S1: was regarding that specific line. He's not actually saying that
S1: there's no place for science or mathematics or all of
S1: the things that make this world measurable and understandable and predictable.
S1: All of those things are very, very beautiful to him.
S1: But but they have their their limiting threshold. They won't
S1: be able to actually take us over the lip into
S1: the spiritual realm. They help us understand what God God's
S1: fingerprint here, but there are limits to those things. And
S1: I agree, poets sit in that spot. It's a very
S1: uncomfortable spot to sit in where things are unintelligible. And
S1: I would say grief of all things, is probably, at
S1: least for Ben Pulpit, one of the least intelligible things
S1: for me.
S2: Sorry to be technical, but they said it is intelligible.
S2: It's not translatable and not explainable, but it is intelligible.
S1: That's right. But what I'm saying is what it feels
S1: like to me, and I sit in that space. He's
S1: confirming that it is intelligible, and poets create a kind
S1: of intelligibility to it. But even what I feel does
S1: not feel intelligible. When I'm in that space of grief.
S1: I don't know how to articulate that. So when Li-young Lee,
S1: one of my favorite of his lines, when he says
S1: that a poet. People who read poetry have read about
S1: the burning bush, but poets have to sit in the
S1: burning bush and tell us about it. You know, on
S1: one level, what a heavy calling, right? And Lee young
S1: will say this. You know, if he's sitting here with me,
S1: he'll say what he said in the interview, which is
S1: it's a very lonely place to be out here. He said,
S1: it's very lonely out here. Well, where is out here?
S1: Lee Young. Out here. Where I have to write this work.
S1: I'm sitting alone with God. And that's sitting alone in
S1: the boat with God. Even the disciples, when the waves
S1: are tossing. Even when Jesus calms the waves. It's actually
S1: scarier when you're sitting alone and you know you're sitting
S1: in the presence of God. Then when the waves are
S1: really pretty crushing. So I think Robert Cording is touching
S1: on the fact that that a poet's job is to
S1: take this space of our experience, which feels beyond our
S1: ability to put words to them and says, I'm going
S1: to make an attempt to put words to them. One
S1: of my favorite moments in that interview is when he says,
S1: every attempt at writing is actually a guaranteed failure, because
S1: you just won't actually put it down the way you
S1: mean to. Rich Mullins, one of his songs, he says,
S1: I'm hearing this song that I've heard in somewhere in
S1: my childhood. I've been chasing that my whole life. Right? Yeah.
S1: So I think that that attempt is such a worthy attempt,
S1: and one of my hopes with this book is that
S1: it would maybe remove the austerity called poets and poetry
S1: and make it what it was meant to be. You know, Shelley,
S1: Percy Shelley said that, um, that poet poetry is in
S1: our nature, in our nature. That means that everybody waking
S1: up into the world is a poet, because God is
S1: the first poet. So. And if Christ is the word
S1: made flesh, and we're made in God's image, then all
S1: of us, even those of us who don't, um, feel
S1: like we're quite at these poets level. We're all poets.
S1: So I think I'm hoping that it encourages people to
S1: just pick up a pen, because there's something wonderful about
S1: poetry that I don't know is true of any other
S1: kind of writing. But when you read poetry, there's a
S1: part of you that's that feels compelled to write a
S1: line of poetry.
S2: Yeah.
S1: And it's a generative art, so I love that about poetry.
S1: And I want people to feel that absolute freedom to go,
S1: you know, it's just my attempt, but it's your loaves
S1: and fish. So let's take what God gives you and
S1: steward it to the best of your abilities.
S2: Oh, thanks for that, Ben, I love it. Uh, I
S2: usually end with the question, who are the poets? Who
S2: are the writers? Make you want to write? I don't know,
S2: it seems almost not fair to ask you that question
S2: at this point.
S1: I think we've answered that.
S2: Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. And I don't have an alternative
S2: question either. Do you have a what's what's an interesting
S2: alternative to, to that question, Ben, that you would like
S2: to answer.
S1: What is the place, Jonathan, that makes you want to write?
S1: What's the place? One of the themes in this, in
S1: these interviews is playfulness. And whether it's Kentucky or whether
S1: it's California, each of these poets is accepting the limitation
S1: of place and actually embracing it and saying, this is
S1: where I am, this is where I'm from. And for me,
S1: I come from rural Africa. Dad was a missionary doctor,
S1: and I'm still that little boy who runs clay paths
S1: deep down in my heart. And so any place right
S1: here in the in the beautiful northwest out here that
S1: is quiet and has a lot of trees. Man, that
S1: I'm at home right there. But there are people who've
S1: who have never had that experience, who grew up in
S1: the city and love the city. Yeah. That's your place, right?
S1: That's your place. Right from that place. Embrace that place.
S1: And God loves to just multiply that because it's going
S1: to sound like you. If I try to sound like
S1: a guy who grew up in the city, best of luck.
S1: It's not going to work. But I can sound like
S1: me and I'm going to embrace it.
S2: Great. All right, Ben Philpott, thanks so much for being here.
S2: This has been such a it's always such a pleasure
S2: to talk to you. And this is no exception.
S1: I'm glad I love time with you, Jonathan.
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