S1: The only thing durable enough is actually beauty and goodness
S1: and song. These things are so durable. Even though they
S1: look flimsy to us, they feel like almost an escape
S1: escapism or. But they're really not. They really are a
S1: testimony in a way, to bear witness to reality and
S1: to not just to bear witness, but to actually participate
S1: in it, to actually engage with what is real.
S2: Welcome to the habit podcast conversations with writers about writing.
S2: I'm Jonathan Rogers, your host. This episode is brought to
S2: you by the Habit Writer development cohorts. I've taught a
S2: lot of writers over the last three decades, and here's
S2: a recurring theme if you're a writer, it can be
S2: hard to believe that readers need what you can bring.
S2: But your voice, your point of view, your combination of
S2: interest and insight those are exactly what the world needs
S2: from you. I put together the Habit Writer Development Cohorts,
S2: a six week writing intensive to help writers like you
S2: recover your voice, build sustainable habits, and produce work that
S2: sounds exactly like you. From May 19th through June 27th,
S2: you'll write alongside a small group of fellow writers with structure, coaching,
S2: and support every step of the way. Find out more
S2: and apply for a spot at the habit. Matthew Clark
S2: is my guest on this week's episode. Matthew is a
S2: singer songwriter, a storyteller, and a free spirit. He drives
S2: around America in a van he calls Vandolph, taking his
S2: music and his stories and his wisdom to audiences across
S2: the country. For the last six years, he's been working
S2: on a project he calls The Well Trilogy. Three albums
S2: of 11 songs, each accompanied by a collection of 11
S2: essays inspired by those songs written by friends of Matthew.
S2: The latest installment, where the River goes, comes out this week.
S2: In this episode, Matthew and I talk about aligning with reality,
S2: overcoming despair and the love that outlives every kind of death.
S2: Matthew Clark, what a pleasure it is to have you
S2: back again on The Habit podcast.
S1: Good to be here. Thanks for having me.
S2: Um, excited about the new third volume of The Well trilogy. Um,
S2: tell me about give us a. I know you've talked
S2: this in a previous episode, but give us the overview
S2: of the well trilogy and the and the music that
S2: goes with it. Yeah. Tell us about this whole project.
S1: Yeah. It's, um, it's been something I've been working on
S1: since 2019, and I had a bunch of songs, like
S1: just a pile of scraps of songs, and they seemed
S1: to kind of naturally want to gather in three conversations.
S1: And so I thought, well, maybe three albums. One conversation
S1: seemed to be about, uh, meeting. Meeting. Jesus and and
S1: what are the obstacles or the fears that get in
S1: the way of that? And then that ended up being
S1: kind of framed around the woman at the, well, here's
S1: this woman who has no imagination for how God could
S1: possibly meet her in a hopeful or good way. Yeah,
S1: she gets a big surprise, and she has all these
S1: obstacles to that meeting. She doesn't want to face God. Um,
S1: but the face of God ends up being Jesus's face.
S1: And it's a smiling face. The light of the face
S1: of God has been turned towards her. And so that
S1: album is called Only the Lover Sings. And as we'll
S1: talk about, it's framed also in a lot around Joseph
S1: Peeper's stuff. Um, he even stole the title. Yeah. Uh,
S1: and then the middle album is about faith keeping. It's
S1: kind of centered around the Psalm 137. You know, here
S1: we are by the rivers of Babylon. In our slave
S1: drivers are just humiliating us, saying, why don't you sing
S1: those songs about that home you're never going to see again?
S1: How do we decide to keep singing what is true
S1: and hold on to what is true? How do we
S1: keep this feast in the midst of misery and suffering?
S1: And then the last album, this one that's coming out now, is, uh,
S1: is about the final return of that face. We met
S1: by the well that seemed to disappear in the middle volume,
S1: and now has come back fully and completely unveiled at
S1: the last apocalypse. You know, this great unveiling and revealing
S1: of the face of Jesus to the whole cosmos and
S1: how everything is made new by that. And the sort
S1: of image for that is this river, Ezekiel's river, that
S1: begins as this little trickle from the becomes this massive
S1: thing that, uh, in Ezekiel is told everything will live
S1: where the river goes. And the river is kind of
S1: Jesus's face, making all things new. But each album has
S1: a book that goes with it. I thought, I really
S1: miss liner notes. I thought it'd be fun to just
S1: have some gigantic liner notes.
S2: Yeah, the most elaborate liner notes that have ever been composed.
S1: Yeah. If you're going to do something, just just overdo it.
S2: Yeah, yeah. So each book is 11 essays, plus an
S2: introductory and a sort of an intro and an outro
S2: from you.
S1: That's right. Um, so I asked some writers that I
S1: liked and, um, if they would pick a song from
S1: that album and not analyze it or critique the song,
S1: they didn't even have to mention the song if they
S1: didn't want to, but just enter into a conversation with
S1: that song and write a personal narrative essay. And those
S1: make up the chapters. Yeah. Drone outro stuff.
S2: So 32 different writers you recruited 33. Counting you.
S1: Mhm. I even recruited myself.
S2: Wow.
S1: I know it was a moonshot.
S2: It just. It's just now occurring to me. Is the
S2: reason you wrote one of those essays yourself is because
S2: I didn't get mine turned in.
S1: Yeah. That's your fault.
S2: Okay. Awesome. Sorry about that.
S1: That's okay.
S2: Well, something you said a minute ago. Maybe. Maybe a
S2: good place for us to to jump off. That is. Now,
S2: I can't remember how you phrased it, but you're talking
S2: about the new heavens and the new earth, and you
S2: didn't put it this way. But it's the way I
S2: like to talk about. It is in the new heavens
S2: and the new earth. The only thing that's left is
S2: that which is real.
S1: Right? Yeah.
S2: You know, but before that point, we're always trying to
S2: sort out what's real. What's not real. We have so
S2: many different ways of us dealing with reality or choosing
S2: not to deal with reality being Turned aside from reality,
S2: constantly trying to get ourselves reoriented to reality. But the
S2: day is coming when reality is all. All that will
S2: be left. You know, which is another way of, you know,
S2: you put it in terms of, um, you know, all
S2: that's left is life. You know, all the varieties of death, uh,
S2: will be gone.
S1: Right? A thousand species of death.
S2: Watch what you say.
S1: So a phrase that kind of. You know how as
S1: you think or write or process, certain things will will
S1: condense down into a phrase, a memorable phrase. And a
S1: thousand species of death. Was. Was that for me? Thinking of, well,
S1: what are all there's obviously our literal death at the
S1: end of our life. And that's a that's the last enemy.
S1: Paul says, but we also experience throughout our life all
S1: kinds of little deaths, all kinds of things that are
S1: not actually what God dreamt of for this world. They're
S1: intrusions and they're things. Uh, so, um, all of that
S1: will be removed. And that's also that idea of, um,
S1: this is this is part of why judgment is actually
S1: a positive thing, because judgment means that, um, this fusion
S1: of the good and the bad and the light and
S1: the dark, all these things that that we have a
S1: very hard time separating out or telling the difference. Like
S1: you're you were just saying they get confused. Um, they
S1: get fused together. And so the wheat and the tares
S1: are growing in the same field, and, and the, the
S1: angels say, no, don't pull up. Don't don't try to
S1: sort it out because you won't be able to. Um,
S1: and we don't have the blueprints for the original plan.
S1: And now this thing is in ruins and we can't
S1: rebuild it ourselves. But God is the only one who
S1: ever saw it before it began to fall apart. So
S1: he's the only one who can actually, um, sort out
S1: that confused state that we live in. And that means
S1: that when he comes to judge, he will clarify all
S1: of that. He can actually tell the difference. And he can, um,
S1: tell what's a tear and what's not, you know, and
S1: he can, um, he's the only one who can cure
S1: our confusion. And the opposite of confusion I'm thinking of
S1: as holiness. It's purity. And so one day, all that
S1: is death that's mixed in with our lives will be
S1: removed completely. And so this is a cause for joy.
S1: Judgment is something you actually want in that sense.
S2: Yeah. So you mentioned that the we we aren't able
S2: to rebuild the ruins because we don't have the blueprint. Um,
S2: what does that mean for a songwriter? A writer? Are
S2: you not trying to rebuild some ruins in your. I mean,
S2: your your book to me reads like a a rebuilding
S2: of something ruined. Am I am I misunderstanding that?
S1: No, it doesn't mean that. Well, we could talk about
S1: paper or, um. And the idea of the knowability that
S1: God is making himself known. And so we're not in
S1: a state where we have zero access to reality. Um,
S1: we would be if God were not, uh, self disclosing God,
S1: not a communicating God, but he is a communicating God.
S1: And so that means, um, that he is putting us
S1: back into contact with reality and with, you know, that blueprint,
S1: so to speak. And even further than that, Jesus himself
S1: has come. The blueprint has come and become flesh and
S1: dwelt among us so that we could, um, you know,
S1: like John writes in first, John, this is the one
S1: we've seen and touched and heard. That's who we're talking about.
S1: And so we have fellowship again with, with this God who, um,
S1: who gives us now access to what his original dream
S1: for the world was.
S2: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's also worth, uh, noting as
S2: as you note, um, that that we were desired and
S2: loved into being the the universe exists. The universe was thought.
S2: And so as we think we have access, you say
S2: God is a communicating God. And one of the ways
S2: he communicates himself is just in the created order. You
S2: know that that we can think about the world because
S2: it was thought to. Yeah, I know you're. Since you're
S2: a peeper reader. Um, you know, that's an idea that
S2: people didn't invent. Of course. Uh, that he's borrowing from Aquinas.
S2: But but. And I don't know where Aquinas got it,
S2: but but the, um. But the idea that we have
S2: access to reality because reality is thought shaped, you know, literally.
S1: Right. Yeah.
S2: That seems really relevant to what you're doing in these songs,
S2: in these in these books that you're writing for this project.
S1: Yeah, I. I liked listening to your I forget what
S1: the number of the episode was, but that you suggested
S1: to me. Um, and it started with Taylor Linhart's, uh,
S1: that phrase love himself dreamed you up, you know?
S2: Yeah.
S1: And. Right. If that's true, then that means. That means
S1: that that there is a natural, um, relatability of reality.
S1: We we have been made to know it. Yeah. We're
S1: designed to be able to enter into it and know it.
S1: And that was always, you know, that was always the quote, predestination.
S1: The destination was always for us to be with and
S1: to be like Jesus. And that destination got derailed in
S1: a lot of ways. But God has made it possible
S1: for that train to get back on the track, or
S1: for that pilgrim to find the the lost trail again
S1: and wind up at the the joy that was always
S1: meant to be set before us, you know.
S2: Yeah.
S1: And that that's actually normal. Yeah. What God is returning us.
S1: What we've experienced to is a normalized Abnormality.
S2: Yeah.
S1: What is normal is actually to be able to commune
S1: with God to know him. Mhm.
S2: Yeah. Well I, I love the way uh, you put
S2: it early in the introduction to, to this latest book, uh,
S2: you and I and the whole cosmos have been desired
S2: and loved into being. Um, and then you, I don't
S2: know if I'm paraphrasing or quoting here. Our maker, the
S2: greatest of dreamers, is is preparing a place for us
S2: just as we're being prepared for it. Um, but, boy,
S2: the idea that we are, uh, desired and loved into being. Um.
S2: I don't even. That's not a question. That's just, uh,
S2: something to marvel at. Yeah.
S1: It is. It's. And a lot of this trilogy is
S1: about being surprised. Yeah. A lot of it is about. Wow,
S1: I did not. That's not what I thought was going
S1: on with the world That's not what I thought God
S1: was like. Or in, you know, for me, in the
S1: first book, only the lover Sings, one of the big
S1: ideas is in the reasons. It's the reason it's framed
S1: around the. The woman at the well in John chapter
S1: four is that this woman's imagination for good? Uh, is
S1: so depleted, it's so damaged, and so she can't imagine
S1: that God could meet her, or that these things that
S1: we've been talking about could be true about her or
S1: the world. Um, because of her experience. And I think
S1: of the imagination as a sort of wall in your
S1: mind where you hang pictures, you hang images. And when
S1: you want to know what's possible for your life, you
S1: go and you look at that wall and you say,
S1: you know, okay, a dog is approaching me. What's on
S1: my wall of images? Oh, I've got a lot of
S1: pictures of being bit by dogs, so it's not a
S1: good idea for me to be around a dog or
S1: for this woman. You know, men are not it's not
S1: a great idea to be around a man or God.
S1: And so that's going to give her a sense of
S1: what's likely or possible. And then she goes to the well.
S1: And by the end of that conversation, um, what happens?
S1: She goes, uh, this is an interesting thing. Something happens
S1: that is not actually we're not actually told. And in writing,
S1: you know, you've taught this before, like show don't tell
S1: or a lot of movie makers say, show us, don't
S1: tell us. And we're not told what she sees on
S1: the face of Jesus. We're only shown what happens because
S1: of what she saw. And judging by what happens that
S1: she goes with all this joy and begins knocking on
S1: all the doors of the people she'd been avoiding all
S1: this time, because she's too embarrassed to be around them. Uh,
S1: judging by that response, what do you think she saw
S1: on the face of Jesus? It couldn't have been discussed.
S1: It couldn't have been a frown, right?
S2: Yeah.
S1: So this is a huge surprise. And so to be
S1: to find out that God loves you and has come
S1: to bring the the smile of God to you to
S1: turn his face toward you with delight. Um, to find
S1: out that you were loved, into being dreamt of, desired
S1: into reality. That's an unbelievable surprise. Um.
S2: Yeah. That's where story lives, right? That unexpected. The thing
S2: that you couldn't have predicted. And then after it happens,
S2: it's obvious. And you don't know why you didn't guess
S2: it in the first place.
S1: And it makes sense of everything that came before in
S1: a new way. You get that sort of, uh, that
S1: backfilling of meaning, you know?
S2: Yeah. Yeah. Um. You you say that, um, the lover
S2: sings two songs simultaneously, and one is a song of lament,
S2: and the other is the song that says his love
S2: endures forever.
S1: Mhm.
S2: Tell me about that.
S1: Yeah, I think that. I think that we're we're waiting. Right.
S1: We're in this waiting period. Um, and we're saying, oh God,
S1: how long is it going to take you to pull
S1: all this off? All this, all this great stuff you've promised,
S1: like we believe it and and we're longing for it
S1: to come true at the same time. And we're in
S1: this circumstance where it doesn't look true or feel true
S1: most of the time. Um, We're bombarded with all kinds
S1: of contradictory information and noise, and we're just trying to
S1: cling to this thing. And and we see our own hearts,
S1: we see inside our own selves. And that's hard to face.
S1: And we're tired of being sinful. We're tired of being tired.
S2: Mhm.
S1: And so we're lamenting and we're saying, oh Lord, you've
S1: said some really wonderful things. Uh, and, and so lament
S1: and love. Uh what's that. Um, is it that Herbert poem?
S1: All my life I will both lament and love.
S2: I don't know that poem.
S1: Is it? It's just a line that is hung out
S1: in my brain. But I'm trying to place it. I
S1: think it's a Herbert poem. It might be the. I
S1: can't remember, but he talks about lament and love. Mhm.
S1: I will lament and love my whole life. Um, because
S1: I believe in you. And I'm also. I'm also just
S1: carrying this longing, you know. Mhm.
S2: Yeah. Yeah.
S1: But both are faithful like that. That's the sense in
S1: which lament is a faithful complaint.
S2: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Well you, you talk about the idea
S2: that um a phrase that struck me from your, from
S2: your introductory essay was uh, the many deaths that love
S2: has outlasted.
S1: Yeah.
S2: Um, which, you know, again speaks to the, the comic
S2: nature of reality. Um, that, that there, there are all
S2: these little deaths and they're, they're painful and they are
S2: they're true. Right. They're not false. I mean, it's just
S2: that there's something truer, that there's a love that outlasts
S2: all that death. Uh, all those all those losses, all
S2: those humiliations. And, um, and again, I think you're you're
S2: hitting it. You're getting at something very important for storytelling that, um,
S2: even that sentence, the many deaths that love is outlasted,
S2: that singing those two songs simultaneously. The the lament and
S2: and the the song. His love endures forever.
S1: Mhm. Yeah. And that that is that's one of the
S1: beautiful witnesses of, of Scripture in the way that God
S1: has supplied the story, you know, is that you've got,
S1: you've got all this, these terrible things happening and you've
S1: got this God who is so reliable through the whole,
S1: you know, that's the strand that goes through it is, uh,
S1: the thread that goes through it is this sort of, uh,
S1: indestructible faithfulness. And you see all these reasons for it
S1: to fall apart and for this thing to just be like, okay,
S1: there's no way this is going to recover. And then
S1: it does, you know, and, and, um, and then the
S1: most poignant one, uh, literally is, is the cross, um,
S1: you see. Okay, okay, this is it. There's no way
S1: you're coming back from this one. Um, and this is
S1: the place where, you know, there are a lot of
S1: different ways you can think of the cross. And I'm
S1: not saying this is the one way to think of it,
S1: but something that I've been thinking about has been, um.
S1: That for a long time I thought of the cross
S1: as a place where God is saying, see, look what
S1: you made me do. Kind of like. It's kind of
S1: like rubbing your nose in it, right?
S2: Yeah.
S1: And but that's begun to change over the last few
S1: years working on these books. And now I'm thinking of
S1: the cross as God saying, this is how bad it
S1: really is in the sense of someone who is identifying
S1: with how with your suffering. Mhm. He's saying I understand
S1: how what it's like to be you. It's this bad
S1: isn't it. It really is. But you know what. Even
S1: in this place I'm glad to be here. Even here.
S1: Like even in this naked, humiliating, painful, miserable place. It
S1: it can't get any worse. Like even here. I want
S1: to be with you. And somebody said that at the
S1: scene of the crucifixion, there is only one person who
S1: actually wants to be there. Hmm. Wow. Another surprise, you know?
S2: Yeah, yeah. Um. Gladness. You know, you just spoke of
S2: the cross in terms of gladness. He was glad to
S2: be there. Um, gladness is the great surprise. Um. And despair.
S2: Let's talk about despair.
S1: Um.
S2: Resignation.
S1: Resignation? Yeah.
S2: Um. These are both. Is it fair to to. And
S2: this may not be fair at all, but we'll throw
S2: it out there. We'll talk about it. Okay. Uh, are
S2: those positions of overconfidence, despair and resignation?
S1: This.
S2: I know how this is going to end. Therefore, I'm
S2: bracing myself. It's it's. I think it's unkind to call
S2: that overconfident especially, you know, so I don't I don't mean,
S2: but there's a sense of they're in despair. If I
S2: if I'm in despair, I am confident that I know
S2: how this thing's going to end. My imagination has not
S2: allowed for, um, uh, a good ending here.
S1: Right.
S2: Um.
S1: Yeah. Well, I love tokens. Come in on this. Well,
S1: in Lord of the rings, Gandalf says he talks about, um,
S1: that we're really not allowed to despair, because that means
S1: that we're. We're assuming that we know all possible ends. Mhm.
S1: All the ways that this could possibly turn out. And
S1: we've seen them all and we know them all and
S1: therefore and we know that they're all bad. Mhm. We've
S1: come to this conclusion. So I think that and he
S1: says we don't know that even the very wise cannot
S1: see all ends. Right.
S2: I don't know if it's I don't know if Tolkien
S2: says this or if this somebody was talking about talking.
S2: But despair is not just a sin. It's a mistake.
S2: That's right. It is a mistaken sense of what the
S2: possibilities are.
S1: That's right. So but I think what happens is you
S1: do get to a place where you feel like, you
S1: know what? What's possible. Um, and you don't. There's always
S1: a room to be surprised by God because he is
S1: doing surprising things. Um, and, gosh, there are a lot
S1: of things I'm thinking of, but, um, one of the,
S1: one of the phrases I use in the book, this
S1: last book is the idea of a foregone conclusion.
S2: Mhm.
S1: This is a foregone conclusion. And the woman at the well,
S1: me and my life at different times I have come
S1: to a place where I, I've felt like it's a
S1: foregone conclusion that nothing good can happen. Which means I've
S1: come to a conclusion, even if it's a mistake or
S1: a false one. And the problem with that is that
S1: it's masquerading as a type of confidence or authority.
S2: Or wisdom.
S1: Or wisdom. And so I can be really cynical or
S1: negative or sarcastic, and it can, because I've come to
S1: that foregone conclusion, um, I've ruled out hope or surprise
S1: which which from the outside, you looking in on my
S1: life that may look like authority. I can speak of that.
S1: And it can come across as, wow, this guy really
S1: has wisdom or authority. He knows.
S2: He knows how the world works.
S1: We should all despair. We should all give up right now,
S1: you know? And to say like. But actually he's wrong. He's.
S1: It's not that he actually knows all the possible ends
S1: and they're all bad. It's just, um, come to a
S1: conclusion about what's possible.
S2: Yeah. And a kind of self-protection, which, again, it's it's
S2: it is actually pretty understandable for a lot of people.
S2: I mean, the woman at the. Well, I completely understand
S2: why she felt resigned, possibly despairing.
S1: Yes. Yes. Um, a lot of room for compassion. Because
S1: it is it is in some ways very reasonable, given,
S1: you know, your experience, perhaps.
S2: Yeah.
S1: Um, but there's always you have to leave room for, uh,
S1: for variables you couldn't account for, you know?
S2: Yeah. Well, to change the topic a little bit, there's
S2: a line from one of your songs. Now, I can't
S2: remember which song it is. I think it's the first
S2: one on the new record.
S1: The title track of the first album. I think only.
S2: Oh, we're going back. That's right. This is from the
S2: first of the three albums. Tell me if I'm getting
S2: this right. You've never met a liar on the lie
S2: that they put forth, right? You get that right.
S1: Mhm.
S2: What does that mean?
S1: So the idea I was taking this from Pieper too.
S1: He talks about that. We are, we are creatures that
S1: are made for beholding to be, to see and to
S1: be seen. And that God sees us and knows us
S1: and we've been loved into being like we talked about.
S1: And so our the right posture for us is to
S1: return that gaze, is to look back into the face
S1: that has sort of looked us into being. And but
S1: that's really scary because we have a damaged imagination. We
S1: have a hard time expecting anything good. If we look
S1: in that face, we expect disgust and condemnation. And so
S1: we do all kinds of things to avoid making eye contact,
S1: to protect ourselves. And, um, one of those things is.
S1: But which means that we're not participating in reality insofar
S1: as I, uh, construct these facades that that sort of
S1: extend out in front of me to protect me. And
S1: I don't tell the truth, and I don't face myself.
S1: It means I don't have a face. It means instead
S1: of a face, I have a facade, which is sort
S1: of a force field out in front of me. So, like,
S1: if you meet me, you don't meet me. You meet
S1: the facade, you meet the that isn't actually me. Because
S1: the thing that is actually me is so tender and vulnerable,
S1: and I'm afraid for anybody to see it. And so
S1: I protect that behind a false self, which means I
S1: can't be touched, means I'm not actually available to the relationship.
S1: I'm not really participating in reality. So you've never met
S1: a liar. You've only met the lie that they put
S1: out in front of them. And there ain't no soul
S1: more lonely until you tell the truth. You can't be touched.
S1: And the idea of the the lover. Only the lover sings.
S1: Only the lover gets the surprising new love song. That
S1: they go knocking on all the doors in the neighborhood.
S1: Because only the one who has. Who takes that risk
S1: to let the facade down. To sort of drop the
S1: old clay jar by the well, um, and, and stop
S1: playing all these games and stop evading and, um, only
S1: that person has the opportunity to see and be surprised
S1: by the face of God I keep running from reality
S1: because I'm so afraid of it. And, um, then I'm
S1: just going to stay where I am, going to stay
S1: stuck and untouchable and safe. It's kind of like that
S1: Lewis quote about the, you know, you can protect yourself,
S1: but the only place where you're really safe from the
S1: pains of love is hell.
S2: Yeah.
S1: You know. Yeah, you can stay there, but, um, there's
S1: a high, high cost. But the reward is so wonderful.
S1: It's just. It's hard to imagine.
S2: Yeah. It reminds me of something you said in in
S2: this book that you can't grieve a false reality.
S1: Yeah.
S2: Um, until you face the griefs in your life, you can't,
S2: you know, you can't grieve them. Um. And. The hard
S2: realities in our life, it's tempting to avoid them. And
S2: it's tempting to because a false reality may be more manageable.
S2: We may incline toward them, but we can't really grieve
S2: them if we if we only put the force field
S2: out there.
S1: Right. And the only thing that I, in my experience
S1: and I write about this in the book and sing
S1: about it in the songs, is that nothing will give
S1: us the strength to be able to face those things
S1: that are so terrifying or painful. Unless we have someone
S1: with us, someone who's glad to be with us, who
S1: we know that we're sort of held. Um, so the
S1: idea of turning toward the face of Jesus, that's where
S1: you find out, like these two things happen at the
S1: same time. You find out, oh, I'm held in this beloved,
S1: this gaze of Belovedness. And so I've got now I've
S1: got the support I need to be able, in the
S1: face of Jesus, to be able to turn and face
S1: myself and face the things that I couldn't look at
S1: before because they were too scary, but because I know
S1: I'm loved and held. Um, in that beholding, I can
S1: look at that stuff and and together it can begin
S1: to change, begin to heal. And those painful things can
S1: be met by that same gaze. And again, that goes
S1: back to what's happening at the cross. I think that's
S1: some of what's going on. Um.
S2: Can we bring some of this back to, um, specifically
S2: how this relates the way you do creative work?
S1: Sure. Um.
S2: This the. Okay, so maybe we can start with the
S2: idea that knowing that you are, uh, delighted in that,
S2: that you were created out of delight. Um, how does
S2: that mean? I like the way you say. We must
S2: keep the feast of song going in the world. Yeah, um,
S2: that seems relevant. That that feels like a a a
S2: connection between the wisdom that you're talking about with regard
S2: to the way we our identity and the way we
S2: do creative work. Um, so keeping the feast of Song
S2: going in the world, because that's ultimately what's real and
S2: what's true, right? We we are moving toward a wedding feast.
S1: Yes.
S2: That's the foregone conclusion. Nobody ever says, you know, nobody
S2: ever uses the phrase foregone conclusions as a foregone conclusion.
S2: I'm going to be happy, I guess, you know. Do
S2: people ever use a foregone conclusion in positive ways?
S1: No, I think it's almost a negative, you know? Uh,
S1: but no, that that is part of the idea of
S1: the dream of God is that God has always been
S1: dreaming of this particular beautiful destination. You know, the whole
S1: world is going to wind up at a wedding feast,
S1: and that's wonderful. That's what it was built for.
S2: And death. And all his friends are not invited to
S2: the wedding feast.
S1: No, they don't get to come. They would. They would
S1: wreck it. But also because, uh, there's a George MacDonald
S1: quote I put at the end of, um, the, the epilogue,
S1: I think, says all that is not God is death.
S1: And so death doesn't get to come to the party
S1: of life. Uh, but yeah, we're but we're keeping that
S1: feast in this in the mean time. Mhm. Um, and
S1: that's kind of part of the idea of the, this
S1: middle book is you learned this song, this beautiful, beautiful
S1: song of Belovedness by the well in Samaria. What a
S1: big surprise. You didn't expect that. Okay. But it didn't
S1: magically fix everything.
S2: Yeah.
S1: It didn't magically make all of your suffering and grief
S1: go away. In fact, sometimes, sometimes when you get the
S1: support you need, little griefs start coming out of the
S1: woodwork because you couldn't deal with them yet. But now
S1: you can. And so sometimes things actually get worse when
S1: you get the help and the love and the holding
S1: that you need. Um, but in the second book, you've
S1: got this album, you got this idea of being by
S1: the rivers of Babylon, and now I've got to choose
S1: between which tree am I going to abide in the
S1: family tree of evil or the family tree of God?
S1: And here I am by this river. I'm being mocked. Um. I'm.
S1: I'm an exile. I'm not where I want to be.
S1: And I'm really tempted to hang up my harp on
S1: the poplar and quit singing because I feel like an
S1: idiot singing. I feel stupid singing these songs. And then
S1: I look around me, and the songs don't match anything.
S1: In my experience, I'm not getting a lot of support
S1: from my, you know, and and so they almost give
S1: up in Psalm 137 they say, yeah, this is this
S1: is stupid. We're never going to see him again. That
S1: good foregone conclusion has been wiped out. And um, and
S1: then they say, no, no, no, we can't do that.
S1: We've got to keep singing these songs. And part of
S1: the idea is, is also this, um, and this is
S1: kind of the epilogue to the middle book talks about
S1: keeping a feast in the midst of your enemies, and
S1: that's that. Psalm 23. He has set a table for
S1: me where, like in the most comfortable, wonderful place. No,
S1: like right in the middle of enemy territory. And part
S1: of the idea is, is that we are being, um.
S1: We're being invited to sit at this table and bear
S1: witness to reality. Yeah. The thing that is ultimately an
S1: absolutely true. And to do that in a context that
S1: that contradicts it, to say something beautiful, where in this
S1: thing where all the diction is contra, it is all
S1: against that, right?
S2: Yeah.
S1: And to and the hope is that somebody might say
S1: somebody's imagination might be supplied with a new image of
S1: how life could be, and they might come and join
S1: us at the table. So we keep it for the
S1: sake of the world and for our own sake. Therefore,
S1: let us keep this feast. Let's maintain this feast. And
S1: it's a feast of song. And Peter talks about you
S1: can't have a wedding feast without the arts. The arts
S1: are kind of the fundamentally festive element of of reality
S1: and personhood. And so part of that is like song
S1: is very connected for him. Well, and the arts overall
S1: are very connected to like this is one of the
S1: ways we keep a feast in the world is that
S1: we make songs, and we make paintings, and we make food,
S1: and we make dances and dresses and, you know, all
S1: of these things.
S2: Um, and those things are not just a relief from
S2: the fundamental sorrow of the world. They are a they're
S2: a pointer to reality that the sorrow is not ultimate.
S1: Right?
S2: It's real. The sorrow is here. The lament is here.
S2: And here's something that's that's truer than that.
S1: Here's something that will outlast all of those deaths. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S1: This thing will end up being the only thing strong
S1: enough to endure. The only thing durable enough is actually
S1: beauty and goodness and song. These things are so durable.
S1: Even though they look flimsy to us, they feel like
S1: almost an escape escapism or. Um, but they're really not.
S1: They really are a testimony in a way, to bear
S1: witness to reality and to not just to bear witness,
S1: but to actually participate in it, to actually engage with
S1: what is real.
S2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man, that's so good. Matthew, you
S2: want to go dig in my garden and write a story? Um.
S1: You should. That's part of my practice. Like I need
S1: to make this stuff.
S2: Yeah.
S1: So that I can, um. I mean, I hope that
S1: it bears witness to other people and become something in
S1: the world. Like a little table that people can come
S1: sit at. A little habitat where they can come and
S1: meet Jesus and be surprised. Yeah. And it's also a
S1: thing that personally, I need to do so that I don't,
S1: you know, fly off into nowhere and give up.
S2: Yeah. Okay. So you've been on this project since 2019.
S2: What are you going to do with yourself now?
S1: Yeah, I think I probably should rest a little bit
S1: and not immediately pick up another project. But I've got
S1: a little word document of about 10 or 15 ideas
S1: of things I want to work on. But I want
S1: to tour. I want to travel around and promote it
S1: and get to go out and and be in a
S1: room with real people and sing these songs and, and
S1: have conversations face to face. So I'm excited to get
S1: to do that. Um, this fall, I know for sure.
S1: Maybe even some this summer.
S2: Is there an easy way for people to connect with
S2: you who want to host you?
S1: Yeah, sure. My website is Matthew Clark. Net and Instagram
S1: at Matthew Clark Net. People can message me there or
S1: email me from my website.
S2: Right on. All right. Thank you Matthew. It's been so
S2: good to spend some time with you.
S1: I always enjoy getting to hang out and talk. Thanks.
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