WEBVTT - Matthew Clark on the Love that Outlives Death 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:07.080 The only thing durable enough is actually beauty and goodness 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:11.600 and song. These things are so durable. Even though they 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:15.240 look flimsy to us, they feel like almost an escape 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:19.120 escapism or. But they're really not. They really are a 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:23.119 testimony in a way, to bear witness to reality and 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.920 to not just to bear witness, but to actually participate 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:30.480 in it, to actually engage with what is real. 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:36.040 Welcome to the habit podcast conversations with writers about writing. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:40.320 I'm Jonathan Rogers, your host. This episode is brought to 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:43.360 you by the Habit Writer development cohorts. I've taught a 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:45.880 lot of writers over the last three decades, and here's 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:48.519 a recurring theme if you're a writer, it can be 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:50.960 hard to believe that readers need what you can bring. 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:54.400 But your voice, your point of view, your combination of 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:57.400 interest and insight those are exactly what the world needs 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:01.470 from you. I put together the Habit Writer Development Cohorts, 0:01:01.510 --> 0:01:04.230 a six week writing intensive to help writers like you 0:01:04.230 --> 0:01:08.190 recover your voice, build sustainable habits, and produce work that 0:01:08.190 --> 0:01:12.150 sounds exactly like you. From May 19th through June 27th, 0:01:12.150 --> 0:01:16.030 you'll write alongside a small group of fellow writers with structure, coaching, 0:01:16.030 --> 0:01:18.750 and support every step of the way. Find out more 0:01:18.750 --> 0:01:24.590 and apply for a spot at the habit. Matthew Clark 0:01:24.590 --> 0:01:27.470 is my guest on this week's episode. Matthew is a 0:01:27.470 --> 0:01:31.550 singer songwriter, a storyteller, and a free spirit. He drives 0:01:31.550 --> 0:01:34.869 around America in a van he calls Vandolph, taking his 0:01:34.870 --> 0:01:37.910 music and his stories and his wisdom to audiences across 0:01:37.910 --> 0:01:40.750 the country. For the last six years, he's been working 0:01:40.750 --> 0:01:44.190 on a project he calls The Well Trilogy. Three albums 0:01:44.190 --> 0:01:47.470 of 11 songs, each accompanied by a collection of 11 0:01:47.470 --> 0:01:51.230 essays inspired by those songs written by friends of Matthew. 0:01:51.990 --> 0:01:55.390 The latest installment, where the River goes, comes out this week. 0:01:56.150 --> 0:01:59.510 In this episode, Matthew and I talk about aligning with reality, 0:01:59.670 --> 0:02:03.750 overcoming despair and the love that outlives every kind of death. 0:02:06.030 --> 0:02:08.590 Matthew Clark, what a pleasure it is to have you 0:02:08.590 --> 0:02:10.630 back again on The Habit podcast. 0:02:11.389 --> 0:02:12.790 Good to be here. Thanks for having me. 0:02:13.070 --> 0:02:19.630 Um, excited about the new third volume of The Well trilogy. Um, 0:02:20.190 --> 0:02:22.910 tell me about give us a. I know you've talked 0:02:22.910 --> 0:02:25.510 this in a previous episode, but give us the overview 0:02:25.510 --> 0:02:28.910 of the well trilogy and the and the music that 0:02:28.910 --> 0:02:31.430 goes with it. Yeah. Tell us about this whole project. 0:02:32.150 --> 0:02:35.109 Yeah. It's, um, it's been something I've been working on 0:02:35.110 --> 0:02:40.510 since 2019, and I had a bunch of songs, like 0:02:40.510 --> 0:02:43.830 just a pile of scraps of songs, and they seemed 0:02:43.830 --> 0:02:47.070 to kind of naturally want to gather in three conversations. 0:02:47.669 --> 0:02:51.430 And so I thought, well, maybe three albums. One conversation 0:02:51.430 --> 0:02:57.780 seemed to be about, uh, meeting. Meeting. Jesus and and 0:02:57.780 --> 0:02:59.820 what are the obstacles or the fears that get in 0:02:59.820 --> 0:03:02.179 the way of that? And then that ended up being 0:03:02.220 --> 0:03:05.580 kind of framed around the woman at the, well, here's 0:03:05.580 --> 0:03:08.139 this woman who has no imagination for how God could 0:03:08.139 --> 0:03:13.019 possibly meet her in a hopeful or good way. Yeah, 0:03:13.060 --> 0:03:15.579 she gets a big surprise, and she has all these 0:03:15.620 --> 0:03:19.700 obstacles to that meeting. She doesn't want to face God. Um, 0:03:19.900 --> 0:03:22.980 but the face of God ends up being Jesus's face. 0:03:23.580 --> 0:03:26.500 And it's a smiling face. The light of the face 0:03:26.500 --> 0:03:30.060 of God has been turned towards her. And so that 0:03:30.060 --> 0:03:32.980 album is called Only the Lover Sings. And as we'll 0:03:32.980 --> 0:03:36.660 talk about, it's framed also in a lot around Joseph 0:03:36.660 --> 0:03:41.700 Peeper's stuff. Um, he even stole the title. Yeah. Uh, 0:03:42.100 --> 0:03:46.020 and then the middle album is about faith keeping. It's 0:03:46.020 --> 0:03:49.100 kind of centered around the Psalm 137. You know, here 0:03:49.100 --> 0:03:52.460 we are by the rivers of Babylon. In our slave 0:03:52.460 --> 0:03:56.690 drivers are just humiliating us, saying, why don't you sing 0:03:56.690 --> 0:03:59.050 those songs about that home you're never going to see again? 0:03:59.650 --> 0:04:04.050 How do we decide to keep singing what is true 0:04:04.050 --> 0:04:05.890 and hold on to what is true? How do we 0:04:05.890 --> 0:04:10.650 keep this feast in the midst of misery and suffering? 0:04:11.490 --> 0:04:14.970 And then the last album, this one that's coming out now, is, uh, 0:04:15.370 --> 0:04:18.210 is about the final return of that face. We met 0:04:18.210 --> 0:04:21.930 by the well that seemed to disappear in the middle volume, 0:04:22.050 --> 0:04:25.370 and now has come back fully and completely unveiled at 0:04:25.370 --> 0:04:29.810 the last apocalypse. You know, this great unveiling and revealing 0:04:29.850 --> 0:04:35.290 of the face of Jesus to the whole cosmos and 0:04:35.610 --> 0:04:38.290 how everything is made new by that. And the sort 0:04:38.290 --> 0:04:41.530 of image for that is this river, Ezekiel's river, that 0:04:41.529 --> 0:04:45.410 begins as this little trickle from the becomes this massive 0:04:46.010 --> 0:04:49.370 thing that, uh, in Ezekiel is told everything will live 0:04:49.570 --> 0:04:51.890 where the river goes. And the river is kind of 0:04:52.370 --> 0:04:56.529 Jesus's face, making all things new. But each album has 0:04:56.529 --> 0:04:59.330 a book that goes with it. I thought, I really 0:04:59.330 --> 0:05:01.450 miss liner notes. I thought it'd be fun to just 0:05:01.450 --> 0:05:04.089 have some gigantic liner notes. 0:05:04.130 --> 0:05:07.250 Yeah, the most elaborate liner notes that have ever been composed. 0:05:07.810 --> 0:05:10.490 Yeah. If you're going to do something, just just overdo it. 0:05:10.529 --> 0:05:16.010 Yeah, yeah. So each book is 11 essays, plus an 0:05:16.010 --> 0:05:18.490 introductory and a sort of an intro and an outro 0:05:18.650 --> 0:05:19.330 from you. 0:05:19.850 --> 0:05:23.130 That's right. Um, so I asked some writers that I 0:05:23.130 --> 0:05:26.210 liked and, um, if they would pick a song from 0:05:26.210 --> 0:05:30.930 that album and not analyze it or critique the song, 0:05:30.930 --> 0:05:32.370 they didn't even have to mention the song if they 0:05:32.370 --> 0:05:35.690 didn't want to, but just enter into a conversation with 0:05:35.690 --> 0:05:39.930 that song and write a personal narrative essay. And those 0:05:39.930 --> 0:05:43.370 make up the chapters. Yeah. Drone outro stuff. 0:05:43.490 --> 0:05:47.930 So 32 different writers you recruited 33. Counting you. 0:05:48.210 --> 0:05:50.640 Mhm. I even recruited myself. 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:52.000 Wow. 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:54.400 I know it was a moonshot. 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:56.680 It just. It's just now occurring to me. Is the 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:58.800 reason you wrote one of those essays yourself is because 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:00.119 I didn't get mine turned in. 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:01.920 Yeah. That's your fault. 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:06.760 Okay. Awesome. Sorry about that. 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:07.679 That's okay. 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:14.440 Well, something you said a minute ago. Maybe. Maybe a 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:18.800 good place for us to to jump off. That is. Now, 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:20.159 I can't remember how you phrased it, but you're talking 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:22.440 about the new heavens and the new earth, and you 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:23.760 didn't put it this way. But it's the way I 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:25.880 like to talk about. It is in the new heavens 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:28.960 and the new earth. The only thing that's left is 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:30.200 that which is real. 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:31.560 Right? Yeah. 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.880 You know, but before that point, we're always trying to 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:38.560 sort out what's real. What's not real. We have so 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:44.560 many different ways of us dealing with reality or choosing 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:49.600 not to deal with reality being Turned aside from reality, 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:56.080 constantly trying to get ourselves reoriented to reality. But the 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.800 day is coming when reality is all. All that will 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:03.240 be left. You know, which is another way of, you know, 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:07.240 you put it in terms of, um, you know, all 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:13.600 that's left is life. You know, all the varieties of death, uh, 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:15.480 will be gone. 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:17.960 Right? A thousand species of death. 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:19.400 Watch what you say. 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:23.240 So a phrase that kind of. You know how as 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:26.320 you think or write or process, certain things will will 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:30.620 condense down into a phrase, a memorable phrase. And a 0:07:30.620 --> 0:07:35.559 thousand species of death. Was. Was that for me? Thinking of, well, 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.800 what are all there's obviously our literal death at the 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:43.240 end of our life. And that's a that's the last enemy. 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:47.470 Paul says, but we also experience throughout our life all 0:07:47.470 --> 0:07:50.030 kinds of little deaths, all kinds of things that are 0:07:50.310 --> 0:07:54.590 not actually what God dreamt of for this world. They're 0:07:54.590 --> 0:07:58.910 intrusions and they're things. Uh, so, um, all of that 0:07:58.910 --> 0:08:03.830 will be removed. And that's also that idea of, um, 0:08:05.430 --> 0:08:08.190 this is this is part of why judgment is actually 0:08:08.190 --> 0:08:15.030 a positive thing, because judgment means that, um, this fusion 0:08:15.870 --> 0:08:18.750 of the good and the bad and the light and 0:08:18.750 --> 0:08:21.030 the dark, all these things that that we have a 0:08:21.030 --> 0:08:25.830 very hard time separating out or telling the difference. Like 0:08:25.870 --> 0:08:29.750 you're you were just saying they get confused. Um, they 0:08:29.750 --> 0:08:32.950 get fused together. And so the wheat and the tares 0:08:32.990 --> 0:08:35.910 are growing in the same field, and, and the, the 0:08:35.910 --> 0:08:38.590 angels say, no, don't pull up. Don't don't try to 0:08:38.630 --> 0:08:41.949 sort it out because you won't be able to. Um, 0:08:42.670 --> 0:08:46.900 and we don't have the blueprints for the original plan. 0:08:46.900 --> 0:08:48.620 And now this thing is in ruins and we can't 0:08:48.620 --> 0:08:52.260 rebuild it ourselves. But God is the only one who 0:08:52.260 --> 0:08:55.020 ever saw it before it began to fall apart. So 0:08:55.020 --> 0:08:59.340 he's the only one who can actually, um, sort out 0:08:59.700 --> 0:09:03.620 that confused state that we live in. And that means 0:09:03.620 --> 0:09:07.020 that when he comes to judge, he will clarify all 0:09:07.059 --> 0:09:11.179 of that. He can actually tell the difference. And he can, um, 0:09:11.260 --> 0:09:14.100 tell what's a tear and what's not, you know, and 0:09:14.100 --> 0:09:16.980 he can, um, he's the only one who can cure 0:09:17.020 --> 0:09:21.500 our confusion. And the opposite of confusion I'm thinking of 0:09:21.540 --> 0:09:27.060 as holiness. It's purity. And so one day, all that 0:09:27.059 --> 0:09:29.340 is death that's mixed in with our lives will be 0:09:29.340 --> 0:09:31.900 removed completely. And so this is a cause for joy. 0:09:32.179 --> 0:09:35.020 Judgment is something you actually want in that sense. 0:09:35.340 --> 0:09:39.260 Yeah. So you mentioned that the we we aren't able 0:09:39.260 --> 0:09:43.900 to rebuild the ruins because we don't have the blueprint. Um, 0:09:44.660 --> 0:09:48.540 what does that mean for a songwriter? A writer? Are 0:09:48.540 --> 0:09:51.380 you not trying to rebuild some ruins in your. I mean, 0:09:51.420 --> 0:09:55.980 your your book to me reads like a a rebuilding 0:09:55.980 --> 0:09:59.340 of something ruined. Am I am I misunderstanding that? 0:10:01.059 --> 0:10:04.700 No, it doesn't mean that. Well, we could talk about 0:10:04.700 --> 0:10:09.579 paper or, um. And the idea of the knowability that 0:10:09.580 --> 0:10:13.500 God is making himself known. And so we're not in 0:10:13.500 --> 0:10:17.540 a state where we have zero access to reality. Um, 0:10:17.980 --> 0:10:22.460 we would be if God were not, uh, self disclosing God, 0:10:22.620 --> 0:10:26.300 not a communicating God, but he is a communicating God. 0:10:26.740 --> 0:10:32.620 And so that means, um, that he is putting us 0:10:32.620 --> 0:10:37.500 back into contact with reality and with, you know, that blueprint, 0:10:37.500 --> 0:10:42.770 so to speak. And even further than that, Jesus himself 0:10:42.770 --> 0:10:46.929 has come. The blueprint has come and become flesh and 0:10:46.929 --> 0:10:51.010 dwelt among us so that we could, um, you know, 0:10:51.050 --> 0:10:52.970 like John writes in first, John, this is the one 0:10:52.970 --> 0:10:56.370 we've seen and touched and heard. That's who we're talking about. 0:10:57.130 --> 0:11:01.930 And so we have fellowship again with, with this God who, um, 0:11:02.570 --> 0:11:05.210 who gives us now access to what his original dream 0:11:05.210 --> 0:11:06.210 for the world was. 0:11:06.570 --> 0:11:11.330 Yeah. Yeah. I think it's also worth, uh, noting as 0:11:11.370 --> 0:11:16.770 as you note, um, that that we were desired and 0:11:16.770 --> 0:11:22.730 loved into being the the universe exists. The universe was thought. 0:11:23.809 --> 0:11:27.850 And so as we think we have access, you say 0:11:27.850 --> 0:11:30.929 God is a communicating God. And one of the ways 0:11:30.929 --> 0:11:35.170 he communicates himself is just in the created order. You 0:11:35.170 --> 0:11:37.650 know that that we can think about the world because 0:11:37.650 --> 0:11:41.680 it was thought to. Yeah, I know you're. Since you're 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:45.400 a peeper reader. Um, you know, that's an idea that 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:48.719 people didn't invent. Of course. Uh, that he's borrowing from Aquinas. 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:52.440 But but. And I don't know where Aquinas got it, 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:57.840 but but the, um. But the idea that we have 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:06.400 access to reality because reality is thought shaped, you know, literally. 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:08.600 Right. Yeah. 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.199 That seems really relevant to what you're doing in these songs, 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:16.719 in these in these books that you're writing for this project. 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:25.600 Yeah, I. I liked listening to your I forget what 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:28.359 the number of the episode was, but that you suggested 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:32.840 to me. Um, and it started with Taylor Linhart's, uh, 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:37.160 that phrase love himself dreamed you up, you know? 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:37.520 Yeah. 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:44.640 And. Right. If that's true, then that means. That means 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:50.959 that that there is a natural, um, relatability of reality. 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:54.360 We we have been made to know it. Yeah. We're 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.440 designed to be able to enter into it and know it. 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:03.920 And that was always, you know, that was always the quote, predestination. 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:07.439 The destination was always for us to be with and 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:12.920 to be like Jesus. And that destination got derailed in 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.520 a lot of ways. But God has made it possible 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:17.920 for that train to get back on the track, or 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.800 for that pilgrim to find the the lost trail again 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:23.480 and wind up at the the joy that was always 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:25.200 meant to be set before us, you know. 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:26.080 Yeah. 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:31.400 And that that's actually normal. Yeah. What God is returning us. 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:34.950 What we've experienced to is a normalized Abnormality. 0:13:35.670 --> 0:13:36.110 Yeah. 0:13:36.150 --> 0:13:39.430 What is normal is actually to be able to commune 0:13:39.429 --> 0:13:41.429 with God to know him. Mhm. 0:13:41.630 --> 0:13:46.710 Yeah. Well I, I love the way uh, you put 0:13:46.710 --> 0:13:51.870 it early in the introduction to, to this latest book, uh, 0:13:51.910 --> 0:13:54.469 you and I and the whole cosmos have been desired 0:13:54.470 --> 0:13:58.990 and loved into being. Um, and then you, I don't 0:13:58.990 --> 0:14:01.070 know if I'm paraphrasing or quoting here. Our maker, the 0:14:01.070 --> 0:14:03.709 greatest of dreamers, is is preparing a place for us 0:14:03.910 --> 0:14:09.190 just as we're being prepared for it. Um, but, boy, 0:14:09.190 --> 0:14:13.310 the idea that we are, uh, desired and loved into being. Um. 0:14:15.470 --> 0:14:17.950 I don't even. That's not a question. That's just, uh, 0:14:18.190 --> 0:14:20.270 something to marvel at. Yeah. 0:14:20.390 --> 0:14:23.990 It is. It's. And a lot of this trilogy is 0:14:23.990 --> 0:14:28.830 about being surprised. Yeah. A lot of it is about. Wow, 0:14:28.830 --> 0:14:30.950 I did not. That's not what I thought was going 0:14:30.950 --> 0:14:33.940 on with the world That's not what I thought God 0:14:33.940 --> 0:14:38.660 was like. Or in, you know, for me, in the 0:14:38.660 --> 0:14:41.780 first book, only the lover Sings, one of the big 0:14:41.780 --> 0:14:46.300 ideas is in the reasons. It's the reason it's framed 0:14:46.300 --> 0:14:48.580 around the. The woman at the well in John chapter 0:14:48.580 --> 0:14:54.820 four is that this woman's imagination for good? Uh, is 0:14:54.820 --> 0:15:01.340 so depleted, it's so damaged, and so she can't imagine 0:15:01.340 --> 0:15:03.900 that God could meet her, or that these things that 0:15:03.900 --> 0:15:06.180 we've been talking about could be true about her or 0:15:06.180 --> 0:15:11.300 the world. Um, because of her experience. And I think 0:15:11.300 --> 0:15:15.340 of the imagination as a sort of wall in your 0:15:15.860 --> 0:15:20.860 mind where you hang pictures, you hang images. And when 0:15:20.860 --> 0:15:23.060 you want to know what's possible for your life, you 0:15:23.060 --> 0:15:25.940 go and you look at that wall and you say, 0:15:26.460 --> 0:15:28.940 you know, okay, a dog is approaching me. What's on 0:15:28.940 --> 0:15:30.820 my wall of images? Oh, I've got a lot of 0:15:30.980 --> 0:15:35.260 pictures of being bit by dogs, so it's not a 0:15:35.260 --> 0:15:37.300 good idea for me to be around a dog or 0:15:37.340 --> 0:15:41.380 for this woman. You know, men are not it's not 0:15:41.380 --> 0:15:45.060 a great idea to be around a man or God. 0:15:45.700 --> 0:15:48.900 And so that's going to give her a sense of 0:15:48.900 --> 0:15:53.380 what's likely or possible. And then she goes to the well. 0:15:54.620 --> 0:16:00.380 And by the end of that conversation, um, what happens? 0:16:00.380 --> 0:16:04.460 She goes, uh, this is an interesting thing. Something happens 0:16:04.460 --> 0:16:09.180 that is not actually we're not actually told. And in writing, 0:16:09.220 --> 0:16:11.860 you know, you've taught this before, like show don't tell 0:16:12.100 --> 0:16:14.300 or a lot of movie makers say, show us, don't 0:16:14.340 --> 0:16:17.740 tell us. And we're not told what she sees on 0:16:17.740 --> 0:16:21.220 the face of Jesus. We're only shown what happens because 0:16:21.220 --> 0:16:25.740 of what she saw. And judging by what happens that 0:16:25.740 --> 0:16:28.740 she goes with all this joy and begins knocking on 0:16:28.740 --> 0:16:31.050 all the doors of the people she'd been avoiding all 0:16:31.050 --> 0:16:35.290 this time, because she's too embarrassed to be around them. Uh, 0:16:35.330 --> 0:16:37.850 judging by that response, what do you think she saw 0:16:37.850 --> 0:16:40.210 on the face of Jesus? It couldn't have been discussed. 0:16:40.490 --> 0:16:43.010 It couldn't have been a frown, right? 0:16:43.410 --> 0:16:43.850 Yeah. 0:16:43.970 --> 0:16:47.050 So this is a huge surprise. And so to be 0:16:47.090 --> 0:16:50.730 to find out that God loves you and has come 0:16:50.730 --> 0:16:54.170 to bring the the smile of God to you to 0:16:54.210 --> 0:16:58.050 turn his face toward you with delight. Um, to find 0:16:58.050 --> 0:17:01.970 out that you were loved, into being dreamt of, desired 0:17:02.210 --> 0:17:06.650 into reality. That's an unbelievable surprise. Um. 0:17:06.970 --> 0:17:11.170 Yeah. That's where story lives, right? That unexpected. The thing 0:17:11.170 --> 0:17:13.250 that you couldn't have predicted. And then after it happens, 0:17:13.250 --> 0:17:15.010 it's obvious. And you don't know why you didn't guess 0:17:15.010 --> 0:17:16.050 it in the first place. 0:17:16.090 --> 0:17:18.010 And it makes sense of everything that came before in 0:17:18.010 --> 0:17:21.930 a new way. You get that sort of, uh, that 0:17:22.450 --> 0:17:24.810 backfilling of meaning, you know? 0:17:25.210 --> 0:17:34.649 Yeah. Yeah. Um. You you say that, um, the lover 0:17:34.650 --> 0:17:39.730 sings two songs simultaneously, and one is a song of lament, 0:17:40.609 --> 0:17:44.090 and the other is the song that says his love 0:17:44.090 --> 0:17:45.010 endures forever. 0:17:45.609 --> 0:17:46.169 Mhm. 0:17:46.890 --> 0:17:47.850 Tell me about that. 0:17:49.530 --> 0:17:56.610 Yeah, I think that. I think that we're we're waiting. Right. 0:17:56.609 --> 0:18:04.010 We're in this waiting period. Um, and we're saying, oh God, 0:18:04.010 --> 0:18:07.010 how long is it going to take you to pull 0:18:07.010 --> 0:18:10.570 all this off? All this, all this great stuff you've promised, 0:18:10.570 --> 0:18:13.929 like we believe it and and we're longing for it 0:18:13.930 --> 0:18:16.850 to come true at the same time. And we're in 0:18:16.850 --> 0:18:21.450 this circumstance where it doesn't look true or feel true 0:18:21.690 --> 0:18:26.479 most of the time. Um, We're bombarded with all kinds 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:32.520 of contradictory information and noise, and we're just trying to 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:36.760 cling to this thing. And and we see our own hearts, 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:39.960 we see inside our own selves. And that's hard to face. 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:45.119 And we're tired of being sinful. We're tired of being tired. 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:46.200 Mhm. 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:51.080 And so we're lamenting and we're saying, oh Lord, you've 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:56.959 said some really wonderful things. Uh, and, and so lament 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:01.360 and love. Uh what's that. Um, is it that Herbert poem? 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:03.640 All my life I will both lament and love. 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:05.760 I don't know that poem. 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:11.760 Is it? It's just a line that is hung out 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:14.200 in my brain. But I'm trying to place it. I 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:18.600 think it's a Herbert poem. It might be the. I 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:22.040 can't remember, but he talks about lament and love. Mhm. 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:27.270 I will lament and love my whole life. Um, because 0:19:27.270 --> 0:19:31.870 I believe in you. And I'm also. I'm also just 0:19:32.470 --> 0:19:34.949 carrying this longing, you know. Mhm. 0:19:35.390 --> 0:19:36.630 Yeah. Yeah. 0:19:37.790 --> 0:19:40.310 But both are faithful like that. That's the sense in 0:19:40.310 --> 0:19:43.070 which lament is a faithful complaint. 0:19:43.750 --> 0:19:51.189 Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Well you, you talk about the idea 0:19:51.190 --> 0:19:54.910 that um a phrase that struck me from your, from 0:19:54.910 --> 0:19:58.310 your introductory essay was uh, the many deaths that love 0:19:58.350 --> 0:19:59.270 has outlasted. 0:19:59.790 --> 0:20:00.270 Yeah. 0:20:00.550 --> 0:20:07.150 Um, which, you know, again speaks to the, the comic 0:20:07.150 --> 0:20:13.350 nature of reality. Um, that, that there, there are all 0:20:13.350 --> 0:20:17.350 these little deaths and they're, they're painful and they are 0:20:18.270 --> 0:20:21.670 they're true. Right. They're not false. I mean, it's just 0:20:21.670 --> 0:20:24.149 that there's something truer, that there's a love that outlasts 0:20:24.350 --> 0:20:27.830 all that death. Uh, all those all those losses, all 0:20:27.830 --> 0:20:33.710 those humiliations. And, um, and again, I think you're you're 0:20:33.710 --> 0:20:41.790 hitting it. You're getting at something very important for storytelling that, um, 0:20:42.390 --> 0:20:45.389 even that sentence, the many deaths that love is outlasted, 0:20:46.950 --> 0:20:51.070 that singing those two songs simultaneously. The the lament and 0:20:51.950 --> 0:20:54.310 and the the song. His love endures forever. 0:20:55.470 --> 0:20:58.830 Mhm. Yeah. And that that is that's one of the 0:20:58.869 --> 0:21:02.550 beautiful witnesses of, of Scripture in the way that God 0:21:02.590 --> 0:21:07.950 has supplied the story, you know, is that you've got, 0:21:07.990 --> 0:21:11.430 you've got all this, these terrible things happening and you've 0:21:11.430 --> 0:21:15.150 got this God who is so reliable through the whole, 0:21:15.190 --> 0:21:19.030 you know, that's the strand that goes through it is, uh, 0:21:19.070 --> 0:21:23.700 the thread that goes through it is this sort of, uh, 0:21:23.980 --> 0:21:29.060 indestructible faithfulness. And you see all these reasons for it 0:21:29.060 --> 0:21:33.899 to fall apart and for this thing to just be like, okay, 0:21:33.900 --> 0:21:38.060 there's no way this is going to recover. And then 0:21:38.060 --> 0:21:43.060 it does, you know, and, and, um, and then the 0:21:43.060 --> 0:21:48.660 most poignant one, uh, literally is, is the cross, um, 0:21:49.060 --> 0:21:51.619 you see. Okay, okay, this is it. There's no way 0:21:51.619 --> 0:21:54.860 you're coming back from this one. Um, and this is 0:21:54.859 --> 0:21:58.260 the place where, you know, there are a lot of 0:21:58.260 --> 0:22:01.260 different ways you can think of the cross. And I'm 0:22:01.260 --> 0:22:02.820 not saying this is the one way to think of it, 0:22:02.820 --> 0:22:06.820 but something that I've been thinking about has been, um. 0:22:09.380 --> 0:22:11.460 That for a long time I thought of the cross 0:22:11.460 --> 0:22:14.900 as a place where God is saying, see, look what 0:22:14.900 --> 0:22:19.090 you made me do. Kind of like. It's kind of 0:22:19.090 --> 0:22:20.690 like rubbing your nose in it, right? 0:22:20.730 --> 0:22:21.090 Yeah. 0:22:21.450 --> 0:22:25.210 And but that's begun to change over the last few 0:22:25.210 --> 0:22:28.250 years working on these books. And now I'm thinking of 0:22:28.250 --> 0:22:32.330 the cross as God saying, this is how bad it 0:22:32.330 --> 0:22:37.650 really is in the sense of someone who is identifying 0:22:37.650 --> 0:22:43.409 with how with your suffering. Mhm. He's saying I understand 0:22:43.410 --> 0:22:46.090 how what it's like to be you. It's this bad 0:22:46.090 --> 0:22:49.810 isn't it. It really is. But you know what. Even 0:22:49.810 --> 0:22:53.930 in this place I'm glad to be here. Even here. 0:22:53.970 --> 0:22:58.449 Like even in this naked, humiliating, painful, miserable place. It 0:22:58.770 --> 0:23:01.330 it can't get any worse. Like even here. I want 0:23:01.330 --> 0:23:05.090 to be with you. And somebody said that at the 0:23:05.130 --> 0:23:08.250 scene of the crucifixion, there is only one person who 0:23:08.250 --> 0:23:16.130 actually wants to be there. Hmm. Wow. Another surprise, you know? 0:23:16.170 --> 0:23:25.929 Yeah, yeah. Um. Gladness. You know, you just spoke of 0:23:26.250 --> 0:23:28.050 the cross in terms of gladness. He was glad to 0:23:28.050 --> 0:23:34.650 be there. Um, gladness is the great surprise. Um. And despair. 0:23:35.930 --> 0:23:38.530 Let's talk about despair. 0:23:39.250 --> 0:23:39.650 Um. 0:23:40.330 --> 0:23:41.369 Resignation. 0:23:41.850 --> 0:23:42.810 Resignation? Yeah. 0:23:43.090 --> 0:23:49.290 Um. These are both. Is it fair to to. And 0:23:49.290 --> 0:23:51.889 this may not be fair at all, but we'll throw 0:23:51.890 --> 0:23:54.970 it out there. We'll talk about it. Okay. Uh, are 0:23:54.970 --> 0:24:01.450 those positions of overconfidence, despair and resignation? 0:24:02.730 --> 0:24:03.130 This. 0:24:03.650 --> 0:24:05.850 I know how this is going to end. Therefore, I'm 0:24:06.530 --> 0:24:09.930 bracing myself. It's it's. I think it's unkind to call 0:24:09.930 --> 0:24:14.720 that overconfident especially, you know, so I don't I don't mean, 0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:20.840 but there's a sense of they're in despair. If I 0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:25.000 if I'm in despair, I am confident that I know 0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:28.960 how this thing's going to end. My imagination has not 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:34.720 allowed for, um, uh, a good ending here. 0:24:35.240 --> 0:24:35.680 Right. 0:24:36.520 --> 0:24:37.080 Um. 0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:42.200 Yeah. Well, I love tokens. Come in on this. Well, 0:24:42.200 --> 0:24:46.600 in Lord of the rings, Gandalf says he talks about, um, 0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:50.480 that we're really not allowed to despair, because that means 0:24:50.480 --> 0:24:55.960 that we're. We're assuming that we know all possible ends. Mhm. 0:24:56.000 --> 0:24:58.280 All the ways that this could possibly turn out. And 0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:00.320 we've seen them all and we know them all and 0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:04.280 therefore and we know that they're all bad. Mhm. We've 0:25:04.280 --> 0:25:08.239 come to this conclusion. So I think that and he 0:25:08.240 --> 0:25:10.480 says we don't know that even the very wise cannot 0:25:10.480 --> 0:25:11.680 see all ends. Right. 0:25:13.990 --> 0:25:16.190 I don't know if it's I don't know if Tolkien 0:25:16.190 --> 0:25:17.950 says this or if this somebody was talking about talking. 0:25:17.950 --> 0:25:20.590 But despair is not just a sin. It's a mistake. 0:25:21.190 --> 0:25:23.710 That's right. It is a mistaken sense of what the 0:25:23.710 --> 0:25:24.710 possibilities are. 0:25:24.990 --> 0:25:28.270 That's right. So but I think what happens is you 0:25:28.270 --> 0:25:31.710 do get to a place where you feel like, you 0:25:31.710 --> 0:25:37.830 know what? What's possible. Um, and you don't. There's always 0:25:37.830 --> 0:25:40.950 a room to be surprised by God because he is 0:25:40.950 --> 0:25:46.790 doing surprising things. Um, and, gosh, there are a lot 0:25:46.790 --> 0:25:51.149 of things I'm thinking of, but, um, one of the, 0:25:51.190 --> 0:25:53.870 one of the phrases I use in the book, this 0:25:53.869 --> 0:25:56.670 last book is the idea of a foregone conclusion. 0:25:57.150 --> 0:25:57.750 Mhm. 0:25:57.790 --> 0:26:02.070 This is a foregone conclusion. And the woman at the well, 0:26:02.390 --> 0:26:05.070 me and my life at different times I have come 0:26:05.070 --> 0:26:07.350 to a place where I, I've felt like it's a 0:26:07.350 --> 0:26:12.030 foregone conclusion that nothing good can happen. Which means I've 0:26:12.030 --> 0:26:14.510 come to a conclusion, even if it's a mistake or 0:26:14.550 --> 0:26:17.870 a false one. And the problem with that is that 0:26:19.430 --> 0:26:23.109 it's masquerading as a type of confidence or authority. 0:26:24.310 --> 0:26:25.070 Or wisdom. 0:26:25.310 --> 0:26:29.669 Or wisdom. And so I can be really cynical or 0:26:29.710 --> 0:26:34.590 negative or sarcastic, and it can, because I've come to 0:26:34.630 --> 0:26:40.270 that foregone conclusion, um, I've ruled out hope or surprise 0:26:41.790 --> 0:26:45.910 which which from the outside, you looking in on my 0:26:45.910 --> 0:26:49.469 life that may look like authority. I can speak of that. 0:26:49.950 --> 0:26:52.750 And it can come across as, wow, this guy really 0:26:52.750 --> 0:26:54.750 has wisdom or authority. He knows. 0:26:55.510 --> 0:26:56.830 He knows how the world works. 0:26:56.869 --> 0:27:00.070 We should all despair. We should all give up right now, 0:27:00.590 --> 0:27:03.750 you know? And to say like. But actually he's wrong. He's. 0:27:04.310 --> 0:27:07.070 It's not that he actually knows all the possible ends 0:27:07.070 --> 0:27:12.659 and they're all bad. It's just, um, come to a 0:27:12.660 --> 0:27:16.139 conclusion about what's possible. 0:27:16.540 --> 0:27:20.859 Yeah. And a kind of self-protection, which, again, it's it's 0:27:21.020 --> 0:27:23.939 it is actually pretty understandable for a lot of people. 0:27:23.980 --> 0:27:26.940 I mean, the woman at the. Well, I completely understand 0:27:26.940 --> 0:27:31.140 why she felt resigned, possibly despairing. 0:27:31.500 --> 0:27:35.620 Yes. Yes. Um, a lot of room for compassion. Because 0:27:35.619 --> 0:27:42.659 it is it is in some ways very reasonable, given, 0:27:42.700 --> 0:27:44.620 you know, your experience, perhaps. 0:27:44.660 --> 0:27:44.980 Yeah. 0:27:45.660 --> 0:27:49.420 Um, but there's always you have to leave room for, uh, 0:27:49.420 --> 0:27:52.379 for variables you couldn't account for, you know? 0:27:52.420 --> 0:27:57.460 Yeah. Well, to change the topic a little bit, there's 0:27:57.460 --> 0:28:00.540 a line from one of your songs. Now, I can't 0:28:00.540 --> 0:28:02.340 remember which song it is. I think it's the first 0:28:02.340 --> 0:28:03.300 one on the new record. 0:28:03.660 --> 0:28:06.619 The title track of the first album. I think only. 0:28:07.980 --> 0:28:10.659 Oh, we're going back. That's right. This is from the 0:28:10.660 --> 0:28:12.859 first of the three albums. Tell me if I'm getting 0:28:12.859 --> 0:28:15.820 this right. You've never met a liar on the lie 0:28:15.859 --> 0:28:18.420 that they put forth, right? You get that right. 0:28:19.100 --> 0:28:19.580 Mhm. 0:28:19.859 --> 0:28:20.659 What does that mean? 0:28:21.859 --> 0:28:26.020 So the idea I was taking this from Pieper too. 0:28:26.859 --> 0:28:32.580 He talks about that. We are, we are creatures that 0:28:32.580 --> 0:28:36.419 are made for beholding to be, to see and to 0:28:36.460 --> 0:28:43.780 be seen. And that God sees us and knows us 0:28:43.780 --> 0:28:46.180 and we've been loved into being like we talked about. 0:28:46.780 --> 0:28:51.100 And so our the right posture for us is to 0:28:51.140 --> 0:28:54.700 return that gaze, is to look back into the face 0:28:54.700 --> 0:28:59.500 that has sort of looked us into being. And but 0:28:59.500 --> 0:29:03.020 that's really scary because we have a damaged imagination. We 0:29:03.020 --> 0:29:06.010 have a hard time expecting anything good. If we look 0:29:06.010 --> 0:29:10.690 in that face, we expect disgust and condemnation. And so 0:29:10.850 --> 0:29:13.970 we do all kinds of things to avoid making eye contact, 0:29:14.890 --> 0:29:20.690 to protect ourselves. And, um, one of those things is. 0:29:20.730 --> 0:29:25.170 But which means that we're not participating in reality insofar 0:29:25.210 --> 0:29:32.370 as I, uh, construct these facades that that sort of 0:29:32.410 --> 0:29:35.330 extend out in front of me to protect me. And 0:29:35.330 --> 0:29:38.010 I don't tell the truth, and I don't face myself. 0:29:38.050 --> 0:29:40.690 It means I don't have a face. It means instead 0:29:40.690 --> 0:29:43.010 of a face, I have a facade, which is sort 0:29:43.010 --> 0:29:46.810 of a force field out in front of me. So, like, 0:29:47.170 --> 0:29:50.090 if you meet me, you don't meet me. You meet 0:29:50.090 --> 0:29:54.290 the facade, you meet the that isn't actually me. Because 0:29:54.330 --> 0:29:57.050 the thing that is actually me is so tender and vulnerable, 0:29:57.050 --> 0:30:00.970 and I'm afraid for anybody to see it. And so 0:30:00.970 --> 0:30:04.760 I protect that behind a false self, which means I 0:30:04.760 --> 0:30:09.760 can't be touched, means I'm not actually available to the relationship. 0:30:09.760 --> 0:30:13.640 I'm not really participating in reality. So you've never met 0:30:13.680 --> 0:30:17.120 a liar. You've only met the lie that they put 0:30:17.120 --> 0:30:19.680 out in front of them. And there ain't no soul 0:30:19.720 --> 0:30:23.520 more lonely until you tell the truth. You can't be touched. 0:30:24.880 --> 0:30:28.360 And the idea of the the lover. Only the lover sings. 0:30:28.360 --> 0:30:32.080 Only the lover gets the surprising new love song. That 0:30:32.080 --> 0:30:34.400 they go knocking on all the doors in the neighborhood. 0:30:35.520 --> 0:30:39.600 Because only the one who has. Who takes that risk 0:30:40.480 --> 0:30:43.120 to let the facade down. To sort of drop the 0:30:43.120 --> 0:30:49.920 old clay jar by the well, um, and, and stop 0:30:49.920 --> 0:30:54.920 playing all these games and stop evading and, um, only 0:30:54.920 --> 0:30:59.200 that person has the opportunity to see and be surprised 0:30:59.200 --> 0:31:03.640 by the face of God I keep running from reality 0:31:03.640 --> 0:31:07.400 because I'm so afraid of it. And, um, then I'm 0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:09.080 just going to stay where I am, going to stay 0:31:09.080 --> 0:31:12.280 stuck and untouchable and safe. It's kind of like that 0:31:12.280 --> 0:31:15.840 Lewis quote about the, you know, you can protect yourself, 0:31:16.360 --> 0:31:18.640 but the only place where you're really safe from the 0:31:18.640 --> 0:31:19.960 pains of love is hell. 0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:21.200 Yeah. 0:31:21.560 --> 0:31:24.840 You know. Yeah, you can stay there, but, um, there's 0:31:24.880 --> 0:31:28.400 a high, high cost. But the reward is so wonderful. 0:31:28.640 --> 0:31:30.720 It's just. It's hard to imagine. 0:31:31.840 --> 0:31:36.360 Yeah. It reminds me of something you said in in 0:31:36.360 --> 0:31:39.080 this book that you can't grieve a false reality. 0:31:39.640 --> 0:31:40.200 Yeah. 0:31:40.720 --> 0:31:45.240 Um, until you face the griefs in your life, you can't, 0:31:45.640 --> 0:31:54.040 you know, you can't grieve them. Um. And. The hard 0:31:54.040 --> 0:31:58.560 realities in our life, it's tempting to avoid them. And 0:31:58.560 --> 0:32:04.070 it's tempting to because a false reality may be more manageable. 0:32:04.990 --> 0:32:09.270 We may incline toward them, but we can't really grieve 0:32:09.270 --> 0:32:12.710 them if we if we only put the force field 0:32:12.710 --> 0:32:13.190 out there. 0:32:13.870 --> 0:32:18.030 Right. And the only thing that I, in my experience 0:32:18.030 --> 0:32:20.990 and I write about this in the book and sing 0:32:21.030 --> 0:32:24.510 about it in the songs, is that nothing will give 0:32:24.510 --> 0:32:28.830 us the strength to be able to face those things 0:32:28.830 --> 0:32:34.270 that are so terrifying or painful. Unless we have someone 0:32:34.270 --> 0:32:38.070 with us, someone who's glad to be with us, who 0:32:38.630 --> 0:32:43.590 we know that we're sort of held. Um, so the 0:32:43.590 --> 0:32:47.710 idea of turning toward the face of Jesus, that's where 0:32:47.710 --> 0:32:50.150 you find out, like these two things happen at the 0:32:50.150 --> 0:32:55.190 same time. You find out, oh, I'm held in this beloved, 0:32:55.550 --> 0:33:00.140 this gaze of Belovedness. And so I've got now I've 0:33:00.140 --> 0:33:03.500 got the support I need to be able, in the 0:33:03.500 --> 0:33:06.540 face of Jesus, to be able to turn and face 0:33:06.540 --> 0:33:09.540 myself and face the things that I couldn't look at 0:33:09.540 --> 0:33:13.900 before because they were too scary, but because I know 0:33:13.900 --> 0:33:20.660 I'm loved and held. Um, in that beholding, I can 0:33:20.660 --> 0:33:24.140 look at that stuff and and together it can begin 0:33:24.140 --> 0:33:27.820 to change, begin to heal. And those painful things can 0:33:27.860 --> 0:33:30.580 be met by that same gaze. And again, that goes 0:33:30.580 --> 0:33:32.540 back to what's happening at the cross. I think that's 0:33:32.540 --> 0:33:34.740 some of what's going on. Um. 0:33:35.380 --> 0:33:39.820 Can we bring some of this back to, um, specifically 0:33:39.860 --> 0:33:43.700 how this relates the way you do creative work? 0:33:44.340 --> 0:33:47.180 Sure. Um. 0:33:47.860 --> 0:33:50.260 This the. Okay, so maybe we can start with the 0:33:50.260 --> 0:33:53.740 idea that knowing that you are, uh, delighted in that, 0:33:53.740 --> 0:33:58.860 that you were created out of delight. Um, how does 0:33:58.860 --> 0:34:01.540 that mean? I like the way you say. We must 0:34:01.540 --> 0:34:05.180 keep the feast of song going in the world. Yeah, um, 0:34:05.220 --> 0:34:08.820 that seems relevant. That that feels like a a a 0:34:09.739 --> 0:34:13.980 connection between the wisdom that you're talking about with regard 0:34:13.980 --> 0:34:19.379 to the way we our identity and the way we 0:34:19.380 --> 0:34:25.660 do creative work. Um, so keeping the feast of Song 0:34:26.660 --> 0:34:29.739 going in the world, because that's ultimately what's real and 0:34:29.739 --> 0:34:33.420 what's true, right? We we are moving toward a wedding feast. 0:34:33.940 --> 0:34:34.540 Yes. 0:34:34.580 --> 0:34:38.460 That's the foregone conclusion. Nobody ever says, you know, nobody 0:34:38.460 --> 0:34:41.820 ever uses the phrase foregone conclusions as a foregone conclusion. 0:34:41.820 --> 0:34:45.940 I'm going to be happy, I guess, you know. Do 0:34:45.940 --> 0:34:48.340 people ever use a foregone conclusion in positive ways? 0:34:48.820 --> 0:34:51.979 No, I think it's almost a negative, you know? Uh, 0:34:51.980 --> 0:34:53.969 but no, that that is part of the idea of 0:34:53.969 --> 0:34:56.410 the dream of God is that God has always been 0:34:56.410 --> 0:35:02.410 dreaming of this particular beautiful destination. You know, the whole 0:35:02.410 --> 0:35:04.210 world is going to wind up at a wedding feast, 0:35:04.210 --> 0:35:07.930 and that's wonderful. That's what it was built for. 0:35:08.210 --> 0:35:10.089 And death. And all his friends are not invited to 0:35:10.090 --> 0:35:10.770 the wedding feast. 0:35:10.810 --> 0:35:12.410 No, they don't get to come. They would. They would 0:35:12.410 --> 0:35:16.130 wreck it. But also because, uh, there's a George MacDonald 0:35:16.130 --> 0:35:20.770 quote I put at the end of, um, the, the epilogue, 0:35:20.770 --> 0:35:24.610 I think, says all that is not God is death. 0:35:25.610 --> 0:35:27.770 And so death doesn't get to come to the party 0:35:27.770 --> 0:35:31.969 of life. Uh, but yeah, we're but we're keeping that 0:35:31.969 --> 0:35:37.690 feast in this in the mean time. Mhm. Um, and 0:35:38.170 --> 0:35:39.969 that's kind of part of the idea of the, this 0:35:39.969 --> 0:35:43.610 middle book is you learned this song, this beautiful, beautiful 0:35:43.610 --> 0:35:46.890 song of Belovedness by the well in Samaria. What a 0:35:46.890 --> 0:35:50.330 big surprise. You didn't expect that. Okay. But it didn't 0:35:50.330 --> 0:35:52.200 magically fix everything. 0:35:52.840 --> 0:35:53.280 Yeah. 0:35:53.719 --> 0:35:56.200 It didn't magically make all of your suffering and grief 0:35:56.200 --> 0:35:59.439 go away. In fact, sometimes, sometimes when you get the 0:35:59.440 --> 0:36:03.160 support you need, little griefs start coming out of the 0:36:03.160 --> 0:36:06.120 woodwork because you couldn't deal with them yet. But now 0:36:06.120 --> 0:36:08.960 you can. And so sometimes things actually get worse when 0:36:08.960 --> 0:36:12.000 you get the help and the love and the holding 0:36:12.000 --> 0:36:15.560 that you need. Um, but in the second book, you've 0:36:15.560 --> 0:36:18.080 got this album, you got this idea of being by 0:36:18.080 --> 0:36:20.240 the rivers of Babylon, and now I've got to choose 0:36:20.239 --> 0:36:23.319 between which tree am I going to abide in the 0:36:23.320 --> 0:36:25.680 family tree of evil or the family tree of God? 0:36:26.840 --> 0:36:32.080 And here I am by this river. I'm being mocked. Um. I'm. 0:36:32.120 --> 0:36:34.360 I'm an exile. I'm not where I want to be. 0:36:34.920 --> 0:36:37.480 And I'm really tempted to hang up my harp on 0:36:37.480 --> 0:36:40.560 the poplar and quit singing because I feel like an 0:36:40.560 --> 0:36:44.120 idiot singing. I feel stupid singing these songs. And then 0:36:44.120 --> 0:36:46.799 I look around me, and the songs don't match anything. 0:36:47.840 --> 0:36:50.080 In my experience, I'm not getting a lot of support 0:36:50.080 --> 0:36:54.399 from my, you know, and and so they almost give 0:36:54.400 --> 0:36:58.160 up in Psalm 137 they say, yeah, this is this 0:36:58.160 --> 0:37:00.880 is stupid. We're never going to see him again. That 0:37:00.880 --> 0:37:07.560 good foregone conclusion has been wiped out. And um, and 0:37:07.560 --> 0:37:09.040 then they say, no, no, no, we can't do that. 0:37:09.040 --> 0:37:12.719 We've got to keep singing these songs. And part of 0:37:12.719 --> 0:37:15.520 the idea is, is also this, um, and this is 0:37:15.560 --> 0:37:18.160 kind of the epilogue to the middle book talks about 0:37:18.160 --> 0:37:21.399 keeping a feast in the midst of your enemies, and 0:37:21.400 --> 0:37:24.200 that's that. Psalm 23. He has set a table for 0:37:24.200 --> 0:37:29.000 me where, like in the most comfortable, wonderful place. No, 0:37:29.040 --> 0:37:33.040 like right in the middle of enemy territory. And part 0:37:33.040 --> 0:37:36.919 of the idea is, is that we are being, um. 0:37:39.800 --> 0:37:42.439 We're being invited to sit at this table and bear 0:37:42.480 --> 0:37:47.359 witness to reality. Yeah. The thing that is ultimately an 0:37:47.469 --> 0:37:52.670 absolutely true. And to do that in a context that 0:37:52.710 --> 0:37:56.589 that contradicts it, to say something beautiful, where in this 0:37:56.590 --> 0:38:00.390 thing where all the diction is contra, it is all 0:38:00.590 --> 0:38:01.670 against that, right? 0:38:02.030 --> 0:38:02.510 Yeah. 0:38:02.670 --> 0:38:06.670 And to and the hope is that somebody might say 0:38:06.830 --> 0:38:11.149 somebody's imagination might be supplied with a new image of 0:38:11.150 --> 0:38:13.950 how life could be, and they might come and join 0:38:13.950 --> 0:38:16.350 us at the table. So we keep it for the 0:38:16.390 --> 0:38:20.030 sake of the world and for our own sake. Therefore, 0:38:20.070 --> 0:38:24.149 let us keep this feast. Let's maintain this feast. And 0:38:24.150 --> 0:38:26.549 it's a feast of song. And Peter talks about you 0:38:26.550 --> 0:38:29.590 can't have a wedding feast without the arts. The arts 0:38:29.590 --> 0:38:35.430 are kind of the fundamentally festive element of of reality 0:38:35.430 --> 0:38:38.190 and personhood. And so part of that is like song 0:38:38.190 --> 0:38:42.390 is very connected for him. Well, and the arts overall 0:38:42.790 --> 0:38:44.750 are very connected to like this is one of the 0:38:44.750 --> 0:38:47.430 ways we keep a feast in the world is that 0:38:47.430 --> 0:38:51.390 we make songs, and we make paintings, and we make food, 0:38:51.390 --> 0:38:55.310 and we make dances and dresses and, you know, all 0:38:55.350 --> 0:38:56.190 of these things. 0:38:56.989 --> 0:39:00.550 Um, and those things are not just a relief from 0:39:00.550 --> 0:39:07.950 the fundamental sorrow of the world. They are a they're 0:39:07.950 --> 0:39:12.670 a pointer to reality that the sorrow is not ultimate. 0:39:13.630 --> 0:39:14.230 Right? 0:39:14.270 --> 0:39:19.670 It's real. The sorrow is here. The lament is here. 0:39:20.390 --> 0:39:22.430 And here's something that's that's truer than that. 0:39:22.750 --> 0:39:26.830 Here's something that will outlast all of those deaths. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:39:27.110 --> 0:39:29.750 This thing will end up being the only thing strong 0:39:29.790 --> 0:39:34.670 enough to endure. The only thing durable enough is actually 0:39:34.670 --> 0:39:39.989 beauty and goodness and song. These things are so durable. 0:39:39.989 --> 0:39:43.070 Even though they look flimsy to us, they feel like 0:39:43.110 --> 0:39:48.299 almost an escape escapism or. Um, but they're really not. 0:39:48.340 --> 0:39:51.660 They really are a testimony in a way, to bear 0:39:51.660 --> 0:39:55.380 witness to reality and to not just to bear witness, 0:39:55.380 --> 0:39:59.620 but to actually participate in it, to actually engage with 0:39:59.620 --> 0:40:00.540 what is real. 0:40:00.980 --> 0:40:04.219 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man, that's so good. Matthew, you 0:40:04.219 --> 0:40:07.580 want to go dig in my garden and write a story? Um. 0:40:07.580 --> 0:40:11.100 You should. That's part of my practice. Like I need 0:40:11.100 --> 0:40:12.259 to make this stuff. 0:40:13.500 --> 0:40:13.860 Yeah. 0:40:14.380 --> 0:40:17.859 So that I can, um. I mean, I hope that 0:40:17.860 --> 0:40:20.939 it bears witness to other people and become something in 0:40:20.940 --> 0:40:24.140 the world. Like a little table that people can come 0:40:24.180 --> 0:40:26.060 sit at. A little habitat where they can come and 0:40:26.060 --> 0:40:29.620 meet Jesus and be surprised. Yeah. And it's also a 0:40:29.620 --> 0:40:33.020 thing that personally, I need to do so that I don't, 0:40:34.540 --> 0:40:37.580 you know, fly off into nowhere and give up. 0:40:37.620 --> 0:40:42.410 Yeah. Okay. So you've been on this project since 2019. 0:40:42.890 --> 0:40:44.650 What are you going to do with yourself now? 0:40:46.290 --> 0:40:50.410 Yeah, I think I probably should rest a little bit 0:40:50.450 --> 0:40:53.890 and not immediately pick up another project. But I've got 0:40:53.930 --> 0:40:57.530 a little word document of about 10 or 15 ideas 0:40:57.530 --> 0:41:01.810 of things I want to work on. But I want 0:41:01.850 --> 0:41:03.930 to tour. I want to travel around and promote it 0:41:03.930 --> 0:41:06.370 and get to go out and and be in a 0:41:06.370 --> 0:41:09.530 room with real people and sing these songs and, and 0:41:09.570 --> 0:41:12.529 have conversations face to face. So I'm excited to get 0:41:12.530 --> 0:41:15.729 to do that. Um, this fall, I know for sure. 0:41:15.770 --> 0:41:17.650 Maybe even some this summer. 0:41:18.290 --> 0:41:19.969 Is there an easy way for people to connect with 0:41:19.969 --> 0:41:22.330 you who want to host you? 0:41:23.410 --> 0:41:29.570 Yeah, sure. My website is Matthew Clark. Net and Instagram 0:41:30.170 --> 0:41:33.770 at Matthew Clark Net. People can message me there or 0:41:33.810 --> 0:41:35.170 email me from my website. 0:41:35.690 --> 0:41:38.410 Right on. All right. Thank you Matthew. It's been so 0:41:38.410 --> 0:41:40.089 good to spend some time with you. 0:41:40.370 --> 0:41:42.690 I always enjoy getting to hang out and talk. Thanks. 0:41:48.010 --> 0:41:50.930 The habit Podcast is brought to you by the Rabbit Room, 0:41:50.930 --> 0:41:54.689 where art nourishes community, and community nourishes art. You can 0:41:54.690 --> 0:41:58.049 support their work including this podcast, by becoming a member. 0:41:58.290 --> 0:42:04.130 Visit COVID-19. Special thanks as well to Taylor Leonard for 0:42:04.130 --> 0:42:06.690 letting us use her song diamonds as the theme music 0:42:06.690 --> 0:42:09.690 for The Habit podcast. You can learn more about Taylor 0:42:09.690 --> 0:42:14.610 and follow her work at Taylor Art.com. The Habit Membership 0:42:14.610 --> 0:42:18.450 is a library of resources for writers by me, Jonathan Rogers. 0:42:18.770 --> 0:42:21.250 More importantly, the habit is a hub of community where 0:42:21.250 --> 0:42:24.009 like minded writers gather to discuss their work and give 0:42:24.010 --> 0:42:27.089 each other a little more courage. Find out more at 0:42:27.130 --> 0:42:28.370 the Habit Co.