1 00:00:03,340 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: wait. Don't change over by the new 2050. There's going 2 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:11,969 Speaker 1: to be more plastic in the ocean, and so do 3 00:00:11,970 --> 00:00:14,130 Speaker 1: we want a system of anarchy. And that's what we 4 00:00:14,140 --> 00:00:17,070 Speaker 1: probably have at the moment. And they estimate that is 5 00:00:17,070 --> 00:00:20,370 Speaker 1: about 40.3 million people in some form of modern life. 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,730 Speaker 1: There is no single industry not touched by the definitely 7 00:00:23,730 --> 00:00:25,290 Speaker 1: races have been very good. 8 00:00:26,530 --> 00:00:29,410 Speaker 1: Does being a shift in thinking about accounts of the terrorists, 9 00:00:29,410 --> 00:00:33,620 Speaker 1: And they're currently terrorist laws being used against white nationalists 10 00:00:33,630 --> 00:00:36,089 Speaker 1: where people's lives are being destroyed. 11 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,010 Speaker 1: That, to me, is enough to say something needs to 12 00:00:40,020 --> 00:00:40,550 Speaker 1: be done here. 13 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,620 Speaker 1: Hi there. I'm Susan Carlin. And welcome to what happens next, 14 00:00:45,620 --> 00:00:47,769 Speaker 1: where we take a closer look at some of the 15 00:00:47,780 --> 00:00:49,700 Speaker 1: sticky issues facing the world. 16 00:00:54,940 --> 00:00:56,220 Speaker 1: Wait. 17 00:00:56,780 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: Giving aboutthe concern about the direction of animation is very, 18 00:01:04,540 --> 00:01:16,250 Speaker 1: very smooth. 19 00:01:25,810 --> 00:01:29,370 Speaker 1: Today we'll talk to an expert in terrorism and extremism 20 00:01:29,380 --> 00:01:32,590 Speaker 1: who's going to help us understand the drivers behind these 21 00:01:32,590 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: ideologies and what can be done to change it. Pete 22 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,830 Speaker 1: Lentini is an associate professor of politics and international relations 23 00:01:39,830 --> 00:01:43,550 Speaker 1: Admonish University, and he heads up the global terrorism research unit. 24 00:01:43,770 --> 00:01:46,940 Speaker 1: He's a highly sought after media commentator and the convener 25 00:01:46,950 --> 00:01:49,750 Speaker 1: of montages, Master of counterterrorism studies. 26 00:01:53,610 --> 00:01:57,710 Speaker 1: Founding director of the Global Terrorism Research Center in a 27 00:01:57,710 --> 00:02:01,890 Speaker 1: founding member of the Contempt Research Initiative that Monash withstand 28 00:02:02,790 --> 00:02:06,770 Speaker 1: research initiative for the study of contemporary threats in emerging 29 00:02:06,770 --> 00:02:08,990 Speaker 1: movements in politics and theology. 30 00:02:09,610 --> 00:02:11,050 Speaker 1: Pate Lentini Welcome to the show. 31 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:12,270 Speaker 1: Thanks. 32 00:02:12,790 --> 00:02:16,750 Speaker 1: All right, Paid. When we think about right wing extremism, 33 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: I want you to paint a picture for May. If 34 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: we continue on with the way that we're handling right 35 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:26,850 Speaker 1: wing extremism, what could the world look like if we 36 00:02:26,850 --> 00:02:27,810 Speaker 1: don't change anything? 37 00:02:28,540 --> 00:02:30,380 Speaker 2: Well, I guess some of the ways that we might 38 00:02:30,380 --> 00:02:33,730 Speaker 2: want to think about is actually how are we handling it? And, ah, 39 00:02:33,740 --> 00:02:37,220 Speaker 2: are we handling it properly? And maybe what can we 40 00:02:37,220 --> 00:02:40,050 Speaker 2: do better? And I think, you know, if we look 41 00:02:40,060 --> 00:02:41,649 Speaker 2: in the sense of, 42 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,990 Speaker 2: are we taking it very seriously? I think on a 43 00:02:45,990 --> 00:02:49,019 Speaker 2: couple of levels we might have to say, Certainly not 44 00:02:49,020 --> 00:02:52,340 Speaker 2: as seriously as we should. One of the main drivers 45 00:02:52,350 --> 00:02:56,859 Speaker 2: of right wing extremism largely has to deal with the 46 00:02:56,870 --> 00:03:00,820 Speaker 2: CIA of the loss of status, you know, generally and 47 00:03:00,830 --> 00:03:03,980 Speaker 2: also I think, what's really big. Is this fear of 48 00:03:03,980 --> 00:03:05,300 Speaker 2: some type of extinction? 49 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:05,990 Speaker 1: Okay, 50 00:03:05,990 --> 00:03:09,770 Speaker 2: so whether that be the extinction of the white race 51 00:03:10,050 --> 00:03:15,750 Speaker 2: Onda also, I think maybe some elements of cultural heritage 52 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,410 Speaker 2: and also what would be considered to be, you know, 53 00:03:18,410 --> 00:03:22,380 Speaker 2: some forms of privilege. So I think when if we 54 00:03:22,380 --> 00:03:25,350 Speaker 2: don't really stop and try to take those things very, 55 00:03:25,350 --> 00:03:29,700 Speaker 2: very seriously, I think that we run the risk of 56 00:03:29,700 --> 00:03:34,590 Speaker 2: trivializing some of their politics as aberrant as they may be. Okay, 57 00:03:34,610 --> 00:03:36,990 Speaker 2: so one of the things I think that really 58 00:03:37,930 --> 00:03:41,830 Speaker 2: is potentially problematic is the sense that when we hear 59 00:03:41,830 --> 00:03:47,750 Speaker 2: about right wing extremism, uh, automatically, there are single pointing. Uh, there's, 60 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 2: uh there's demonizing of those particular people. And I think again, 61 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:51,670 Speaker 2: I don't wanna, 62 00:03:52,470 --> 00:03:55,500 Speaker 2: you know, downplay the sense that racism is aberrant and 63 00:03:55,500 --> 00:04:00,730 Speaker 2: should not be tolerant various forms of of exclusionary politics 64 00:04:00,910 --> 00:04:02,100 Speaker 2: in the same boat. 65 00:04:02,740 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: But I think what's significant is that and I think 66 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 2: what the government does right say, with respect to what 67 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,340 Speaker 2: the Islamist politics is that when, um, word comes out 68 00:04:12,340 --> 00:04:15,670 Speaker 2: that there's, you know, usually a young male in these 69 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:20,589 Speaker 2: types of circumstances has started to take on radical viewpoints 70 00:04:20,790 --> 00:04:25,420 Speaker 2: moving towards extremist viewpoints. Um, you know, there's a system 71 00:04:25,420 --> 00:04:27,570 Speaker 2: that gets put in place for support for these types 72 00:04:27,570 --> 00:04:28,170 Speaker 2: of people. 73 00:04:28,700 --> 00:04:33,140 Speaker 2: And again, that's the right thing to do. Unfortunately, we 74 00:04:33,140 --> 00:04:35,900 Speaker 2: don't have the same types of systems in place yet 75 00:04:35,990 --> 00:04:39,580 Speaker 2: for again predominantly young men who might be going through 76 00:04:39,580 --> 00:04:44,430 Speaker 2: these types of of experiences. There's there's no support that 77 00:04:44,430 --> 00:04:49,830 Speaker 2: they feel as if their world view is not, 78 00:04:50,450 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: you know, comprehended. It's denigrated, et cetera. And I think 79 00:04:54,010 --> 00:04:56,260 Speaker 2: one of the things that we have to really, really 80 00:04:56,260 --> 00:05:01,750 Speaker 2: do is acknowledge that for them that loss of whether 81 00:05:01,750 --> 00:05:06,130 Speaker 2: it be social status, the FIA that, um, you know, 82 00:05:06,130 --> 00:05:09,700 Speaker 2: the white race is becoming extinct than losing the Australia 83 00:05:09,700 --> 00:05:13,979 Speaker 2: that they believe in. To them, that's as serious as 84 00:05:13,990 --> 00:05:17,190 Speaker 2: the way that you know. For instance, Muslims in Birmingham 85 00:05:17,450 --> 00:05:21,860 Speaker 2: felt about the publication of The Satanic Verses and how 86 00:05:21,860 --> 00:05:24,860 Speaker 2: that they felt that that was really undercutting all of 87 00:05:24,860 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 2: that stuff that they held sacred. So I think that 88 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:29,620 Speaker 2: one of the things that's really significant is that we're 89 00:05:29,620 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 2: not trying to identify what's sacred to those people. Okay, 90 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,190 Speaker 2: so that's one of the things where you can lose stuff, 91 00:05:36,250 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 2: but by the same token, 92 00:05:38,490 --> 00:05:42,100 Speaker 2: and not being vigilant against some of the racism that 93 00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:46,410 Speaker 2: comes forward and here I'm talking about in many ways the, uh, 94 00:05:46,420 --> 00:05:49,780 Speaker 2: the politicians that at national level, when they don't really 95 00:05:49,779 --> 00:05:53,260 Speaker 2: stand up against this stuff, then you create a circumstance 96 00:05:53,260 --> 00:05:56,969 Speaker 2: where by there's this atmosphere that almost makes it feel 97 00:05:56,970 --> 00:06:00,370 Speaker 2: like it's permissive toe. Hold these types of of aberrant 98 00:06:00,370 --> 00:06:04,020 Speaker 2: viewpoints and that, to a certain extent, may give some 99 00:06:04,020 --> 00:06:07,930 Speaker 2: people who have, you know, these types of aberrant viewpoints 100 00:06:08,029 --> 00:06:11,500 Speaker 2: but might just be misguided people who, with some conversation, 101 00:06:11,589 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 2: you might be able to swing around. It creates a 102 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,030 Speaker 2: circumstance where it makes it look like those types of 103 00:06:17,029 --> 00:06:19,750 Speaker 2: viewpoints of valid and can be encouraged, 104 00:06:20,140 --> 00:06:22,540 Speaker 1: right? So it's actually a really delicate dance where you 105 00:06:22,540 --> 00:06:26,050 Speaker 1: acknowledge the grievances that these young men, like you, said 106 00:06:26,050 --> 00:06:30,930 Speaker 1: mostly young men Ah might have without endorsing them. I 107 00:06:30,930 --> 00:06:33,890 Speaker 1: imagine that's a pretty delicate dance, and whether that's with 108 00:06:33,900 --> 00:06:37,430 Speaker 1: right wing extremism, right wing extremists or like you, said 109 00:06:38,050 --> 00:06:41,750 Speaker 1: Islamist extremists finding that balance, How do you do that? 110 00:06:42,740 --> 00:06:43,350 Speaker 2: Well, this is 111 00:06:43,350 --> 00:06:44,070 Speaker 1: one of the things 112 00:06:44,150 --> 00:06:47,089 Speaker 2: that I think within the context of 113 00:06:47,100 --> 00:06:47,270 Speaker 1: of 114 00:06:47,270 --> 00:06:52,010 Speaker 2: Islamist extremism. There have been some bona fide efforts on 115 00:06:52,010 --> 00:06:54,610 Speaker 2: AH number by a number of different stakeholders to take 116 00:06:54,610 --> 00:06:54,740 Speaker 2: this 117 00:06:54,740 --> 00:06:55,030 Speaker 1: stuff 118 00:06:55,029 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 2: very, very seriously. We're starting to see that. Regrettably, it 119 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:03,010 Speaker 2: took something like the Christ church attack people to stop 120 00:07:03,010 --> 00:07:08,670 Speaker 2: taking seriously the threat of right wing extremist. And this 121 00:07:08,670 --> 00:07:12,690 Speaker 2: is despite the fact that all of the studies of 122 00:07:12,690 --> 00:07:17,170 Speaker 2: ah liberal democratic countries tend to reinforce that Since 9 123 00:07:17,170 --> 00:07:22,420 Speaker 2: 11 although Islamists have certainly generated the most lethal terrorist 124 00:07:22,420 --> 00:07:24,890 Speaker 2: attacks with the highest body counts, we see that the 125 00:07:24,890 --> 00:07:30,100 Speaker 2: most frequent amounts of terrorist attacks have actually been by 126 00:07:30,110 --> 00:07:31,860 Speaker 2: those on the extreme right. 127 00:07:32,380 --> 00:07:37,570 Speaker 2: There really hasn't been the development of programs in this country, 128 00:07:37,570 --> 00:07:39,770 Speaker 2: despite the fact that, you know, they're certainly moving in 129 00:07:39,770 --> 00:07:41,950 Speaker 2: that way and there have been a couple of programmes 130 00:07:41,950 --> 00:07:45,180 Speaker 2: and it started to disengage people from the extreme right 131 00:07:45,550 --> 00:07:50,750 Speaker 2: that you have had with the with within the Islamist context. 132 00:07:50,740 --> 00:07:52,590 Speaker 2: One of the things have been some of the successes 133 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:58,030 Speaker 2: of the Islamist programs has been that you've had, especially 134 00:07:58,030 --> 00:08:01,739 Speaker 2: if you look at Indonesia, Singapore, et cetera, those people 135 00:08:01,740 --> 00:08:05,010 Speaker 2: who previously were involved in extremism and in some cases 136 00:08:05,010 --> 00:08:09,450 Speaker 2: terrorist attacks they've renounced. And these kind of worked with 137 00:08:09,460 --> 00:08:13,180 Speaker 2: a lot of the civil society organizations, state groups to 138 00:08:13,180 --> 00:08:17,580 Speaker 2: help work into programs on getting other people to disengage. 139 00:08:17,580 --> 00:08:21,830 Speaker 2: And these people have the street credibility because they're, you know, 140 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,540 Speaker 2: they don't necessarily pick on people for ah, having view 141 00:08:26,540 --> 00:08:31,250 Speaker 2: points where they want to see various types of political changes. However, 142 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 2: they argue very, very strongly against taking violent approaches. Now, 143 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:40,010 Speaker 2: if we switch this within the the extreme right circumstances 144 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,950 Speaker 2: in Australia, then we see that we have a complete 145 00:08:44,340 --> 00:08:49,210 Speaker 2: ah void of former right wing extremists that are available 146 00:08:49,210 --> 00:08:51,460 Speaker 2: to engage in this type of activity. 147 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,530 Speaker 2: It's been acknowledged that some of the people who have 148 00:08:54,540 --> 00:08:59,209 Speaker 2: been high profile individuals within this right wing extremist space 149 00:08:59,340 --> 00:09:02,270 Speaker 2: have not really been willing to, uh, to engage in 150 00:09:02,270 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 2: this stuff. And I guess the other thing that's really 151 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:10,579 Speaker 2: significant is that the sights of radicalization for Islamist extremism 152 00:09:10,580 --> 00:09:15,699 Speaker 2: and also right wing extremism very, very different. There's certainly 153 00:09:15,700 --> 00:09:20,020 Speaker 2: some merit in trying to get some types of civics programs, 154 00:09:20,020 --> 00:09:22,809 Speaker 2: things like that working for the high school system, 155 00:09:23,460 --> 00:09:26,110 Speaker 2: but by the same token, you know that might have 156 00:09:26,110 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 2: worked with Excuse me, that might have worked with the 157 00:09:28,540 --> 00:09:32,270 Speaker 2: within the context of Islamism. And you also have, you know, 158 00:09:32,270 --> 00:09:36,210 Speaker 2: whole communities that can basically, you know, put people back 159 00:09:36,210 --> 00:09:37,380 Speaker 2: on the straight and narrow. 160 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,900 Speaker 2: You have a very, very different situation with right wing extremism. Because, um, 161 00:09:42,910 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 2: what we've been seeing is that many of those people 162 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,810 Speaker 2: who are moving into right wing extremism Ah, somewhat young, 163 00:09:49,820 --> 00:09:53,850 Speaker 2: somewhat older. Excuse me. Um, so what types of institutions 164 00:09:53,850 --> 00:09:56,290 Speaker 2: can you work with their. They come from a variety 165 00:09:56,290 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 2: of different types of ethnic groups and also religious so 166 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,099 Speaker 2: or non religious backgrounds. So in those respects, it's very, 167 00:10:04,100 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 2: very difficult to try and establish some type of dialogue 168 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:09,890 Speaker 2: where you can actually get that 169 00:10:09,890 --> 00:10:11,250 Speaker 1: balance. 170 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,870 Speaker 1: Like you said, they don't have a community around them 171 00:10:22,870 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: in the same way that maybe, uh, Islamist extremists do. 172 00:10:26,580 --> 00:10:28,690 Speaker 1: So can that be replicated 173 00:10:29,470 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: elsewhere? Or are there other tips or things Success stories 174 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,260 Speaker 1: that research is suggesting. Actually, this should be one thing 175 00:10:36,260 --> 00:10:38,220 Speaker 1: we should be doing with right wing extremists. 176 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: For those people pursuing such a such a track, there 177 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:47,099 Speaker 2: are more opportunities for them to actually become involved in 178 00:10:47,100 --> 00:10:50,500 Speaker 2: what might be considered to be mainstream actions for political change. 179 00:10:50,510 --> 00:10:54,570 Speaker 2: Joining political parties, forming political parties, things for that effect. 180 00:10:54,580 --> 00:10:56,689 Speaker 2: You see a lot of those people who have radical 181 00:10:56,690 --> 00:11:01,170 Speaker 2: tendencies they might actually become involved in some of the 182 00:11:01,540 --> 00:11:05,450 Speaker 2: the more Neil, populist or radical right political parties that 183 00:11:05,460 --> 00:11:08,810 Speaker 2: have been cropping up over the last 20 years of 184 00:11:08,809 --> 00:11:12,930 Speaker 2: self and again. We've also had a long history of 185 00:11:12,940 --> 00:11:17,099 Speaker 2: different types of established right wing, radical and extremist parties 186 00:11:17,100 --> 00:11:19,710 Speaker 2: in this country. Going back, you know, certainly well into 187 00:11:19,710 --> 00:11:21,550 Speaker 2: the into the previous century. 188 00:11:22,340 --> 00:11:27,949 Speaker 1: The radical shift into that mainstream political arena brings with 189 00:11:27,950 --> 00:11:31,020 Speaker 1: it its own challenges there, doesn't it when we have politicians, 190 00:11:31,020 --> 00:11:34,100 Speaker 1: like some of the ones we might have in Australia now, Thanks, um, 191 00:11:34,309 --> 00:11:38,910 Speaker 1: pretty confronting or unpleasant things about racial or religious minorities 192 00:11:38,910 --> 00:11:40,540 Speaker 1: in the country, or when we see 193 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:42,699 Speaker 1: nonviolent, totally 194 00:11:43,410 --> 00:11:48,110 Speaker 1: politically legitimate but not great to see protests happening in 195 00:11:48,110 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: Australia with big billboards or science people carrying about who 196 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: they do and don't want In this country, those are 197 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 1: all legal. They're all absolutely operating within the recognized political 198 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: system we have in Australia. But does that have a 199 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:06,420 Speaker 1: bleed on effect into the right wing extremists. Does the 200 00:12:06,420 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 1: existence off these right wing radical ideas in a legitimate 201 00:12:10,450 --> 00:12:11,050 Speaker 1: arena 202 00:12:11,570 --> 00:12:15,050 Speaker 1: then give legitimacy to the extremists as well? 203 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 2: I guess one of the ways that you contest that 204 00:12:18,130 --> 00:12:19,550 Speaker 2: is the results. 205 00:12:20,340 --> 00:12:22,500 Speaker 2: And I think one of the things that really stands 206 00:12:22,500 --> 00:12:27,650 Speaker 2: out is the sense that especially since about 2013 when 207 00:12:27,660 --> 00:12:31,300 Speaker 2: the rise up Australia party stand stood We see that 208 00:12:31,309 --> 00:12:34,470 Speaker 2: you know that despite the fact that they might have, 209 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,130 Speaker 2: you know, contested ah ah, wide range of seats across 210 00:12:38,130 --> 00:12:42,150 Speaker 2: the country and things like that in most circumstances, they 211 00:12:42,150 --> 00:12:46,730 Speaker 2: actually didn't get, um, you know, more votes than the 212 00:12:46,740 --> 00:12:49,630 Speaker 2: invalid votes. I think they're only up. Maybe, like in 213 00:12:49,630 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 2: the 2013 and 2016 elections, for instance, I think there 214 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,220 Speaker 2: are only a couple of instances where they actually got 215 00:12:56,220 --> 00:12:57,930 Speaker 2: more votes than the 216 00:12:58,670 --> 00:13:02,500 Speaker 2: been invalid votes and the actual electorates. And, you know, 217 00:13:02,500 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 2: there's been some research which suggests that well, in many cases, 218 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 2: what you have is that right wing radical and in 219 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:14,939 Speaker 2: some cases, extremist parties, they don't really drive beyond the 220 00:13:14,940 --> 00:13:17,910 Speaker 2: neighborhood level. So looked at some of the voting data at, 221 00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:21,630 Speaker 2: like individual voting boots and stuff like that. And still, 222 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:27,429 Speaker 2: even at that level, the votes against uh certainly worked 223 00:13:27,429 --> 00:13:28,050 Speaker 2: against them. 224 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,689 Speaker 2: So and so to a certain extent, this kind of it's, 225 00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:34,910 Speaker 2: uh it's really a double edged sword when we're talking 226 00:13:34,910 --> 00:13:38,930 Speaker 2: about how the impact on legitimacy, Because if you have 227 00:13:38,929 --> 00:13:42,590 Speaker 2: a situation where they're running and you know they have 228 00:13:42,590 --> 00:13:46,950 Speaker 2: to deal with the whole, you know, broad type of, 229 00:13:46,940 --> 00:13:49,050 Speaker 2: you know, range of ideas that they have to compete 230 00:13:49,050 --> 00:13:52,740 Speaker 2: against if they get very, very few votes than to 231 00:13:52,740 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 2: a certain extent, you know it reinforces to some that OK, 232 00:13:57,130 --> 00:13:59,599 Speaker 2: this might not be the way to go. We're blocking 233 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,479 Speaker 2: the wrong type or backing the wrong types of forces. 234 00:14:02,730 --> 00:14:05,929 Speaker 2: And so, um, you know that doesn't go forward because 235 00:14:05,929 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 2: the people who are actually going to vote for these 236 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,250 Speaker 2: types of candidates, largely because there's been a number of 237 00:14:11,250 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 2: studies that have that have come out and certainly there 238 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:16,830 Speaker 2: was an article, I think, in the Gotti in a 239 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,550 Speaker 2: few months back, which talked about one of the reasons 240 00:14:19,550 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 2: why the radical right in Australia is not so popular. Eyes, 241 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 2: because basically, the coalition picks up all of its ideas. So, 242 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,830 Speaker 2: to a certain extent, regrettably, that has now become mainstream 243 00:14:33,830 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 2: policy 244 00:14:34,770 --> 00:14:39,050 Speaker 1: circumstances. Yeah, go. It's almost becoming normalized. 245 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and similarly. And I guess you know, if we look, say, 246 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: for instance, it in American context, Um, the, uh the 247 00:14:46,330 --> 00:14:48,820 Speaker 2: agenda that the report some of the Republicans have picked 248 00:14:48,820 --> 00:14:52,390 Speaker 2: up is basically the agenda that David Duke has been 249 00:14:52,390 --> 00:14:56,250 Speaker 2: advocating since the late 19 eighties. This stuff is now mainstream. 250 00:14:56,550 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: So in some cases you that situations where those types 251 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,140 Speaker 2: of bodies, you know, they tank out because of the 252 00:15:02,140 --> 00:15:04,900 Speaker 2: legitimacy and the other type of thing that you might 253 00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:07,530 Speaker 2: have to worry about. And in some cases, you know, 254 00:15:07,530 --> 00:15:12,340 Speaker 2: people get disillusioned, then disengaged from, you know, those types 255 00:15:12,340 --> 00:15:15,220 Speaker 2: of beliefs after that, thinking it's basically a wasted vote. 256 00:15:15,740 --> 00:15:19,310 Speaker 2: In some cases, it reinforces the correctness of some of 257 00:15:19,310 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: these people's viewpoints and how they really you know, the national, 258 00:15:23,290 --> 00:15:25,850 Speaker 2: some type of a van God and they're the only 259 00:15:25,940 --> 00:15:28,380 Speaker 2: types of people who know the truth. And I think 260 00:15:28,380 --> 00:15:31,130 Speaker 2: if we look at one of the bedrocks right now 261 00:15:31,260 --> 00:15:35,060 Speaker 2: of in many cases, radical right and extreme right policy 262 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:42,790 Speaker 2: policies conspiracy theory and persecution, especially persecution of white people 263 00:15:42,890 --> 00:15:45,660 Speaker 2: is really front and center. And, you know, I never 264 00:15:45,660 --> 00:15:49,770 Speaker 2: thought that, you know, in teaching political science in 265 00:15:50,620 --> 00:15:53,750 Speaker 2: in the 21st century that, you know, I'd actually have 266 00:15:53,750 --> 00:15:58,210 Speaker 2: to start including components and modules on the importance of 267 00:15:58,210 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 2: conspiracy theory in mainstream us and, you know, Russian and 268 00:16:02,690 --> 00:16:05,630 Speaker 2: you know, some other types of countries politics and also 269 00:16:05,860 --> 00:16:07,740 Speaker 2: that it exists in 270 00:16:08,450 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 2: many 271 00:16:10,070 --> 00:16:11,460 Speaker 2: Australian context as 272 00:16:11,460 --> 00:16:12,110 Speaker 1: well. 273 00:16:16,340 --> 00:16:23,859 Speaker 1: Way deal with immigration policy, which 274 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,140 Speaker 1: separate communities establish themselves in your major cities. 275 00:16:32,180 --> 00:16:32,750 Speaker 1: Hopes, 276 00:16:33,300 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: aspirations. 277 00:16:35,430 --> 00:16:38,630 Speaker 1: When you when the fire, right, keep stretching further right. 278 00:16:38,980 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: Does it brings the rest of the center with it, 279 00:16:41,770 --> 00:16:44,970 Speaker 1: which shifts further, right? We can't deny now that they 280 00:16:44,970 --> 00:16:48,150 Speaker 1: say these things. And the Scanlon Foundation has shown for 281 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,630 Speaker 1: many years consistently that anti Muslim sentiment in Australia is 282 00:16:52,630 --> 00:16:55,260 Speaker 1: sitting consistently a 40%. 283 00:16:55,840 --> 00:17:00,850 Speaker 1: So these ideas are being absorbed. What is that? What 284 00:17:00,850 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: does that do to a nation? 285 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,300 Speaker 2: Well, again, I think this is one of the reasons 286 00:17:06,300 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 2: why I think we're seeing, uh, you know, across the board. Uh, 287 00:17:11,050 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 2: you know, certainly. If not in office, then. Certainly influential. Ah, 288 00:17:16,570 --> 00:17:19,660 Speaker 2: neo populist type politicians. 289 00:17:20,310 --> 00:17:22,500 Speaker 2: You've got situations where 290 00:17:23,140 --> 00:17:29,910 Speaker 2: they weave those types of aberrant types of policies and 291 00:17:29,910 --> 00:17:35,020 Speaker 2: rhetoric into a broader narrative which also touches upon certain 292 00:17:35,030 --> 00:17:39,550 Speaker 2: elements of economic decline for certain people. 293 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,830 Speaker 2: This this kind of politics of the nostalgia of the 294 00:17:44,830 --> 00:17:48,820 Speaker 2: lost Australia, you know, make America great again. You know, 295 00:17:48,820 --> 00:17:53,340 Speaker 2: this kind of striving for you know, this, Um ah, Britain, 296 00:17:53,340 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 2: That is very, very different to continental Europe. You know, things, 297 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 2: things that work along along those lines there. And I 298 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:08,869 Speaker 2: think you also have, um, other circumstances where it works 299 00:18:09,030 --> 00:18:10,260 Speaker 2: into this, 300 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,660 Speaker 2: the changing of the political discourse because you now have 301 00:18:15,660 --> 00:18:16,860 Speaker 2: a situation where 302 00:18:17,500 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 2: the left had traditionally been the guardians of civil liberties. Okay, 303 00:18:23,690 --> 00:18:27,940 Speaker 2: now you've got them trying to twist around, uh, debates 304 00:18:27,940 --> 00:18:29,930 Speaker 2: about aspects of freedom of speech. 305 00:18:29,940 --> 00:18:31,180 Speaker 1: Okay, um, 306 00:18:31,190 --> 00:18:35,980 Speaker 2: I've actually never heard anybody who critique political correctness who 307 00:18:35,980 --> 00:18:42,710 Speaker 2: actually contributed anything substantial thio, modern day political discourse. You know, 308 00:18:42,810 --> 00:18:46,730 Speaker 2: it's basically just, you know, these people who are pissed 309 00:18:46,730 --> 00:18:51,980 Speaker 2: off because they can't use abusive language anymore, okay? It's not, 310 00:18:51,990 --> 00:18:55,260 Speaker 2: you know, to generate some type of of constructive arguments 311 00:18:55,260 --> 00:18:57,980 Speaker 2: about things they want to be able to persecute in 312 00:18:57,980 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 2: this speech. And so when you've got this kind of, 313 00:19:02,070 --> 00:19:07,030 Speaker 2: um, you know, this combination of, ah, of people feeling 314 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:12,550 Speaker 2: feeling threatened, you know, within the context of international security systems, 315 00:19:12,730 --> 00:19:14,290 Speaker 2: they feel that 316 00:19:14,910 --> 00:19:17,850 Speaker 2: they're relying on what would be considered to be stigmatized 317 00:19:17,850 --> 00:19:22,940 Speaker 2: knowledge within the context of the levels of the threat 318 00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:26,770 Speaker 2: that different types of social groups might be, uh, you know, 319 00:19:26,770 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 2: posing towards them. And then this combination of feeling of 320 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 2: we're losing our rights, we're losing our heritage and stuff 321 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:38,750 Speaker 2: like that. This kind of creates that type of that 322 00:19:38,750 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 2: type of environment where you do have that substantial shift 323 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,649 Speaker 2: to the right, which makes you know these types of 324 00:19:45,660 --> 00:19:49,620 Speaker 2: narratives really full. You know, which what might be might 325 00:19:49,619 --> 00:19:51,110 Speaker 2: have been considered to be, 326 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 2: you know, radical or extreme. Say, maybe 15 20 years ago. 327 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 2: In certain context, that's now considered to be things that 328 00:19:59,770 --> 00:20:02,810 Speaker 2: that the hot land wants to see, defended and protected. 329 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,619 Speaker 1: So what do we do? But it is censorship. The 330 00:20:07,630 --> 00:20:11,500 Speaker 1: solution to we ban these online forums where 331 00:20:12,140 --> 00:20:15,379 Speaker 1: right wing extremists congregate. What? What do you think we 332 00:20:15,380 --> 00:20:15,850 Speaker 1: should do? 333 00:20:16,940 --> 00:20:20,990 Speaker 2: Look, I actually think that, um that could be pretty 334 00:20:21,010 --> 00:20:21,850 Speaker 2: problematic 335 00:20:22,540 --> 00:20:26,190 Speaker 2: because one of the things that really has 336 00:20:27,140 --> 00:20:30,550 Speaker 2: kept most of most people from not becoming extremists is 337 00:20:30,550 --> 00:20:33,369 Speaker 2: when you actually read what some of these extremists have 338 00:20:33,369 --> 00:20:33,950 Speaker 2: to say. 339 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,570 Speaker 2: And you know, that's one of the things that you 340 00:20:37,570 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 2: know in the opinion of Excuse me in the marketplace 341 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:41,260 Speaker 2: of ideas, 342 00:20:41,910 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 2: most of these people's 343 00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 2: arguments cannot hold up, and that's why most of the 344 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,500 Speaker 2: people move away from them. 345 00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:51,790 Speaker 2: The other thing to bear in mind is that, um, 346 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:58,450 Speaker 2: given proper media literacy and also, if you know, there's 347 00:20:58,450 --> 00:21:04,900 Speaker 2: more encouragement for specialists and key stakeholders toe to make 348 00:21:04,900 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 2: more vital contributions to the public's fear. Not just in, 349 00:21:09,390 --> 00:21:14,310 Speaker 2: you know, in a specialist journals and reports and stuff 350 00:21:14,310 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 2: like that. If these types of people could be engaged, 351 00:21:17,770 --> 00:21:21,020 Speaker 2: you know, much more broadly than there's a possibility that 352 00:21:21,020 --> 00:21:25,820 Speaker 2: these types of ideologies can be discussed in ah, much 353 00:21:25,820 --> 00:21:30,790 Speaker 2: more sensible, more detailed, you know, way. Because if people 354 00:21:30,790 --> 00:21:33,780 Speaker 2: are getting their ideas about of these things to social 355 00:21:33,780 --> 00:21:37,250 Speaker 2: media responding to it on social media, it regrettably especially 356 00:21:37,250 --> 00:21:39,770 Speaker 2: big on Twitter. You don't have much space in which 357 00:21:39,770 --> 00:21:43,949 Speaker 2: to do this, okay, but by the same token. Um, 358 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:48,929 Speaker 2: if you have circumstances where, um you know both sides 359 00:21:48,930 --> 00:21:52,780 Speaker 2: can actually have, ah, a little bit more, uh, you know, 360 00:21:52,869 --> 00:21:56,290 Speaker 2: time to ah, you know, express ideas. Then I think 361 00:21:56,300 --> 00:21:59,550 Speaker 2: these these types of things can you know that the 362 00:21:59,550 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 2: ideas can actually be debated and spoken about much, much more, much, 363 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,679 Speaker 2: much more clearly. I also think that one of the 364 00:22:08,690 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 2: things that is important in a democracy is that citizens 365 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 2: need to be well informed. And if all this stuff 366 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,790 Speaker 2: starts to get banned, citizens are not going to be 367 00:22:19,790 --> 00:22:23,540 Speaker 2: informed about what these groups are about. And if that's 368 00:22:23,540 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 2: the situation to things happens one. Okay, you drive the 369 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,010 Speaker 2: discourse underground and in places in the dark Web, and 370 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 2: you've got you create a situation where these types of 371 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,610 Speaker 2: people are not dealing with anybody outside of their own 372 00:22:39,609 --> 00:22:42,419 Speaker 2: types of peer groups. And that's really where we start 373 00:22:42,420 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 2: to see problems. When when, um, you move from radicalism 374 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:51,210 Speaker 2: to extremism, extremism into terrorism, because there's nobody there to 375 00:22:51,210 --> 00:22:55,030 Speaker 2: challenge your viewpoints effectively. Okay, So keeping things out in 376 00:22:55,030 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 2: the open still provides those mechanisms for education, but most 377 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 2: importantly for ah challenge. Okay. The other thing that that 378 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,620 Speaker 2: does is that by banning, you automatically start giving these 379 00:23:08,619 --> 00:23:12,220 Speaker 2: groups some type of a modest status. Okay? And when 380 00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 2: people can start operating from a position of victimhood that 381 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,859 Speaker 2: gives them a sense of legitimacy, and that gives them 382 00:23:19,869 --> 00:23:23,140 Speaker 2: an extra sense of coherence to their narrative and that 383 00:23:23,140 --> 00:23:26,210 Speaker 2: also makes it look like they're the ones who are 384 00:23:26,220 --> 00:23:31,980 Speaker 2: defending democracy, that the state or special interest groups Ah, 385 00:23:31,990 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 2: beating up on them unjustly. We're the only ones who 386 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,850 Speaker 2: can stand up things for that effect. So that type 387 00:23:37,850 --> 00:23:42,870 Speaker 2: of censorship, you know, is, you know, is problematic in 388 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,250 Speaker 2: driving that as well. Now that said, it doesn't mean 389 00:23:46,250 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 2: that everything should come through because there were certain things 390 00:23:49,380 --> 00:23:52,020 Speaker 2: that certainly should not be able to come through anything 391 00:23:52,020 --> 00:23:56,850 Speaker 2: that talks about aspects of operations, how to construct weapons, 392 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,380 Speaker 2: you know, certainly stuff that would be considered to be 393 00:24:01,490 --> 00:24:04,590 Speaker 2: things that would incite those types of things naturally have 394 00:24:04,590 --> 00:24:05,110 Speaker 2: to be 395 00:24:05,730 --> 00:24:09,689 Speaker 2: addressed within, you know, current censorship laws and things for 396 00:24:09,690 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 2: that effect. But by the same token, 397 00:24:12,060 --> 00:24:16,950 Speaker 2: when we don't informed citizens about what these groups are about, 398 00:24:17,290 --> 00:24:21,900 Speaker 2: then they lose you know their rights to, uh, find 399 00:24:21,900 --> 00:24:23,060 Speaker 2: out about them. And 400 00:24:23,580 --> 00:24:28,190 Speaker 2: that again, I think, is regressive within the context of 401 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 2: the liberal democracy where you need educated people. 402 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,970 Speaker 1: Hey, that was very interesting. Some absolutely fascinating food for thought. 403 00:24:35,980 --> 00:24:36,780 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 404 00:24:39,030 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: Incredible insights from Pete on how these movements grow and 405 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,689 Speaker 1: gain momentum on what's really driving the extremists in our midst. 406 00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:48,070 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Pete Lentini for coming on the show 407 00:24:48,780 --> 00:24:51,550 Speaker 1: in our next episode will find out what individuals could 408 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: do or say when they see or experience extremist attitudes 409 00:24:55,270 --> 00:24:58,590 Speaker 1: or ideologies in their everyday lives. Do we call out 410 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,850 Speaker 1: that behavior, or do we starve it of oxygen? 411 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: The strategies from our behavior change expert might surprise you. 412 00:25:04,900 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: I'll see you on the next episode off what happens next?