Speaker 1: imagine
Speaker 1: living in a time where six men kill themselves every day,
Speaker 1: and if we walk back, gonna happen in 100 years.
Speaker 1: It sounds pretty gross, but it's actually,
Speaker 1: you know, originally fake news starts is a critique of
Speaker 1: news that's considered to be inaccurate. It's become a term
Speaker 1: that's used now to dismiss any news that you don't like.
Speaker 1: And Iran wanting to young Australians has
Speaker 1: they are unwell generation that
Speaker 1: people don't accept. Climate science. If I think about how
Speaker 1: we're going to save the world, are enables us to
Speaker 1: move in that region.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to what happens next. So what can we
Speaker 1: as individuals do? In this episode, we'll hear from our
Speaker 1: experts about the best way to support men and boys
Speaker 1: to cultivate positive masculinity. We'll find out what works and why,
Speaker 1: and talk about the resources available.
Speaker 1: I am Rebecca Stewart and I am doing. My PhD
Speaker 1: is part of the behavior change. Read your Research Industry Partnership,
Speaker 1: which is a collaboration between Behaviour Works Australia assed part
Speaker 1: of the Monitor Sustainable Development Institute
Speaker 1: in partnership with Victorian Health Promotion Foundation, and I am
Speaker 1: looking at what the key ingredients are too engaging men
Speaker 1: and boys in sustainable shifts in attitudes and behaviors around
Speaker 1: healthier versions.
Speaker 1: I'm Britney around from a doctor or researcher at Monash
Speaker 1: University and my research books on masculinity in positive change,
Speaker 1: particularly with regards to men's friendships.
Speaker 1: I'm Steve Roberts, associate professor of sociology at Monash University.
Speaker 1: In my research area is masculinity and social change.
Speaker 1: Steve Roberts, Britney Ralph, Rebecca Stewart Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1: I was having a chat with a really good family
Speaker 1: friend is a little boy whose 12 and I was just,
Speaker 1: you know, of no enemies, whole life, lovely kid, very gentle,
Speaker 1: growing up in a feminist household. And I said, How
Speaker 1: school going? And he said, Oh, we had It was
Speaker 1: International Women's Day The other day we had an assembly
Speaker 1: and I said, Oh, cool, how is that? He goes. Actually,
Speaker 1: me and my best friend really hated it because it
Speaker 1: wasn't about anything great that women are doing or what
Speaker 1: they've achieved. It just made me and my friend feel
Speaker 1: bad for being boys.
Speaker 1: How do we deal with this with young kids in particular,
Speaker 1: I think with men they have the capacity to understand
Speaker 1: this idea of structure. So you might be out of, say,
Speaker 1: to an adult man. Um, I know you are against sexism. Personally,
Speaker 1: you're probably horrified by it, but
Speaker 1: you can understand how, even though you might be against that,
Speaker 1: you can benefit from a system that reinforces it. But
Speaker 1: little kids can't understand that, and all he knows is.
Speaker 1: But I don't hate women, and I and I would
Speaker 1: never think that. And now I just feel bad for
Speaker 1: being a boy. How do we? What do we do
Speaker 1: with that? One of the things that it makes me
Speaker 1: think about is the need to amplify the voices of
Speaker 1: boys and men who are
Speaker 1: practicing good behavior, right so that I can understand the
Speaker 1: perspective of that little kid because he's hearing all this
Speaker 1: negativity and like, Ah, that must be what men act there,
Speaker 1: endorse on value somehow. And I don't doesn't that's what's
Speaker 1: also happening. It's not because they're being told that you're
Speaker 1: a bad person, is probably also thinking that's what men do,
Speaker 1: and they endorse that whatever, and that's actually quite problematic.
Speaker 1: So I think we need more work. And again, this
Speaker 1: is something that filters through all of our work in
Speaker 1: some ways to try and say there's some examples of
Speaker 1: how to be a good person
Speaker 1: slash good man, Good boy Andi think we need more
Speaker 1: of that for boys? So any MAWR
Speaker 1: role modeling, I suppose, with the caveat that we know
Speaker 1: that lots of role models also terrible So But we
Speaker 1: need to be promoting better forms of masculinity. And in
Speaker 1: those discussions with young boys and men like,
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's difficult. We don't want to be saying
Speaker 1: it's not all men. We know it's not you but
Speaker 1: to point us towards the problem. So we are together
Speaker 1: working against the problem, not pointing at you and saying
Speaker 1: You're the problem. That's kind of a way through it.
Speaker 1: I think it's no easy, but there's nothing definite about
Speaker 1: being a boy, that's what Right? Well, right now we
Speaker 1: teach kids that there is something definite about being a boy,
Speaker 1: and it's not being a girl. Yeah, so that building
Speaker 1: blocks of much earlier like, you know, around boys and
Speaker 1: girls toys and this kind of stuff like that kind
Speaker 1: of binary is not helpful because then when they grow
Speaker 1: up the air, boys behaving that way, and and I
Speaker 1: think two of its explained at their level. If we
Speaker 1: give them a bit of credit that they are, you know,
Speaker 1: they are living this already. They've been living it since
Speaker 1: they were quite young. They would understand that when you
Speaker 1: go on the playground, there are certain rules for what
Speaker 1: boys and girls shouldn't do in this. There's consequences and
Speaker 1: how kids engage with each other and putting it on
Speaker 1: their level and saying, You know, when such and such
Speaker 1: gets teased because he has long hair, for example, Why
Speaker 1: do you think that is is because of the boy?
Speaker 1: Is that fair? Should he have toe, you know, just
Speaker 1: tryingto
Speaker 1: put in in into language they can relate to and
Speaker 1: understand because they are living it. They've been living it
Speaker 1: for a long time, and I think it's an important
Speaker 1: part of the conversation that, um I guess, has been
Speaker 1: missing up until this point, which is we talk a
Speaker 1: lot about little girls in particular, can be anything and
Speaker 1: do anything
Speaker 1: but we failed to for, and the narrative is often,
Speaker 1: but boys can't be this or can't do that. And
Speaker 1: so a lot of young men that I've spoken to
Speaker 1: it and people that are working in the space are
Speaker 1: looking for. So what can I be? What can I do?
Speaker 1: What you know. Everything is quite fraught for a number
Speaker 1: of reasons in the world at this point in time
Speaker 1: and a lot of messages searching for connection and will
Speaker 1: continue to do so with a really good point. But
Speaker 1: I like that I like the idea of like, Boys
Speaker 1: need empowering as well because the whole idea in the
Speaker 1: empowerment in the feminist movement is toe let people make
Speaker 1: the choices they want to make, and the same should
Speaker 1: be translated to boys as well. Anything that's absolutely and
Speaker 1: we've done so much. You know, there's no problems with
Speaker 1: a little girl showing up to Book week dressed as
Speaker 1: a male character. But I have a a friend's nephew
Speaker 1: who got sent home because he was an address stressed
Speaker 1: up as he's, um, favorite female character out of a book.
Speaker 1: The fact that some of the most powerful people in
Speaker 1: our country still feel the need to shame around those things.
Speaker 1: I think we have a lot of work to do it,
Speaker 1: and that's what the organizations that I'm working with. Ah,
Speaker 1: that's kind of their K aim is to really I
Speaker 1: avoid the world the word in power
Speaker 1: because it's, I mean, this is a fraught area where
Speaker 1: you run the risk of all facets jumping up and screaming.
Speaker 1: But that's what it is. It's about helping, particularly young,
Speaker 1: but also any any age man. Understand that those rules
Speaker 1: in the mental shortcuts that you've just thought always the
Speaker 1: way you have to act
Speaker 1: on on. I think I think power started cut off.
Speaker 1: I think power is like, really central to the issue
Speaker 1: if we connected to these broader issues.
Speaker 1: For men, power comes from dominance for a long time
Speaker 1: and has for a long time come from dominance but
Speaker 1: re
Speaker 1: reshaping our idea of power as impound and what you
Speaker 1: were saying earlier. As as you can do whatever you want,
Speaker 1: you can be whatever you want to be, regardless of
Speaker 1: your gender.
Speaker 1: That would help to address some of the knock on
Speaker 1: effects later in life, when men feel disempowered in a
Speaker 1: society where there is hierarchy among men and and and
Speaker 1: there's class issues. And there's, you know, all these different
Speaker 1: hierarchies that they face, and they feel disempowered by it.
Speaker 1: So they go home and they find other ways to
Speaker 1: feel empowered. And often that's three violent means, whether that's
Speaker 1: their family, whether that's other men on a night out.
Speaker 1: And I think
Speaker 1: if we're gonna change the way that society is going,
Speaker 1: we need to really confuse you with power. And when
Speaker 1: we get that from in our lives
Speaker 1: way,
Speaker 1: Britney, you've done research on men's friendships have. How have
Speaker 1: men's friendships in Australia changed over time?
Speaker 1: So the study that I'm doing for my PhD research
Speaker 1: talks to fathers and sons?
Speaker 1: Um, and a really interesting thing out of the most
Speaker 1: basic level, we're finding that men are opening up more
Speaker 1: at least the men that I'm speaking to on the
Speaker 1: love men you find that are being spoken to in
Speaker 1: the literature.
Speaker 1: Um, they're becoming more comfortable with talking about their emotions
Speaker 1: with their male friends, and they're becoming more physically tactile,
Speaker 1: which we know is an important way
Speaker 1: to access feelings of belonging and well being. Um,
Speaker 1: a really interesting thing that was mentioned earlier was that
Speaker 1: you know we look at young men as this sort
Speaker 1: of beacon of change, and it's definitely true that a
Speaker 1: lot of the younger generations arm or comfortable with being
Speaker 1: intimate with their male friends. What I'm finding with my
Speaker 1: research to is that
Speaker 1: the fathers that I speak to her age between about
Speaker 1: 50 and 70
Speaker 1: they're also living in this cultural shift, and they lived
Speaker 1: it 20 years ago as well. And so
Speaker 1: they're also coming up against things in their lives, deaths
Speaker 1: in the family, illness, other forms of trauma,
Speaker 1: and they're changing with with it. So they had this
Speaker 1: had this cultural shift, and they've gone through something traumatic
Speaker 1: and sort of gone.
Speaker 1: A direct quote from one participants is that you get
Speaker 1: to a point where you realize you can't do it
Speaker 1: on your own anymore. And so it isn't just young
Speaker 1: men that are changing. It's also older generations, and they're
Speaker 1: bringing up boys, you know, as a result of their
Speaker 1: experiences in their thirties, they've been more intimate with their sons.
Speaker 1: They have been more open and communicative and caring with
Speaker 1: their sons. And so for the sons, it's just natural.
Speaker 1: Of course, this is only going off. Ah, a small
Speaker 1: sample of men that are willing to speak to me
Speaker 1: as a researcher. So this is not not definitely not
Speaker 1: across the board, but it's It's a sign of positive change.
Speaker 1: All right, guys, give us take home tips. What can
Speaker 1: the average person at home do
Speaker 1: Teoh to improve things in this room? Ah, well, my
Speaker 1: bugbear is sharing of domestic chores and childcare on. That's
Speaker 1: not just the physical enactment of those things. It's the
Speaker 1: mental load as well. So a lot of women in
Speaker 1: my life, um, carry that load. I live alone, so
Speaker 1: I carry the whole load. I have a rabbit. He
Speaker 1: does not contribute. It'll hopeless, Typical man. Uh uh. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's around modeling and the private sphere as
Speaker 1: much as the public sphere.
Speaker 1: I endorse that I'm a man that tries to live
Speaker 1: his politics, and I can confirm that my wife and
Speaker 1: I share the domestic labour and we're both exhausted rather
Speaker 1: than just one of us being exhausted. So that's good.
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 1: said, Yeah, that's what you That's what it leads to.
Speaker 1: You don't actually have spreading of the load. You just
Speaker 1: completely wiped out the whole time. Especially with a little
Speaker 1: baby in tow as well. Um, practical changes, you know,
Speaker 1: I think about this a lot. In terms of that,
Speaker 1: how do I best bring up my son? So he's
Speaker 1: nearly two, and I'm terrified already. Like I have these
Speaker 1: thoughts about What if he becomes a rapist? What if
Speaker 1: he does these terrible things that that culture teaches boys
Speaker 1: is okay, So I don't know, like, practically, I think,
Speaker 1: the points that backs already raised about being good bystander,
Speaker 1: but again, a za man. And as a formerly a boy,
Speaker 1: I've had a hard time calling out my mates. I try,
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm But I'm an academic who's
Speaker 1: messed in this stuff all the time.
Speaker 1: I would hope that people can
Speaker 1: call people out for sexist behavior and sharing of images
Speaker 1: of women, non consensually and that kind of stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Look, I've got a really hard line that I'm telling here.
Speaker 1: I think just talk to people. I If you're a woman,
Speaker 1: talk Teoh, the men in your life. If you're a
Speaker 1: man and you need something or you know something's up
Speaker 1: with someone just reach out because you never know when
Speaker 1: if that's gonna change someone's life, if reaching out is
Speaker 1: gonna change someone's life and and it's it will change
Speaker 1: your relationships and it'll make you feel more connected. And,
Speaker 1: um, yeah, I think just reach out.
Speaker 1: Essentially,
Speaker 1: that's a nice one. Thank you so much to all
Speaker 1: of you for joining us today. Thank thank you Having us.
Speaker 1: My name is George via I lecture in educational leadership
Speaker 1: at Monash University.
Speaker 1: And I do research
Speaker 1: private boy schools, but I also interested in issues, agenda
Speaker 1: and educational.
Speaker 1: Dr. George Varian. Welcome to the show. Thank you for
Speaker 1: having me.
Speaker 1: What do you think is the single most effective thing
Speaker 1: we could try to do to change the way our
Speaker 1: culture thinks about masculinity? If you could just change one thing,
Speaker 1: what would
Speaker 2: it say? There
Speaker 1: are many things we have to do. I think of
Speaker 1: the let I think, you know, going back again at
Speaker 1: the level of policy. Why are restructuring schooling provision through
Speaker 1: this market lens? I mean, we've demonstrated that the market
Speaker 1: cannot save us in times of crisis
Speaker 1: on and now we have gone back. Teoh model where
Speaker 1: the government needs to step in to support workers.
Speaker 1: And so saying with schooling, you know, why do we
Speaker 1: have these pressurized schooling environments where it's so competitive? Why
Speaker 1: do we, you know, no under sport becomes logical, because
Speaker 1: in these competitive schooling in, um, environments, it's going to be,
Speaker 1: you know, me first, right? So how are we all
Speaker 1: in it together? Maybe that's the discourse of education going forward.
Speaker 1: How can we reimagine school such that we're all in
Speaker 1: it together rather than it being? If you can do that,
Speaker 1: I think that would be a way forward Dealing with
Speaker 1: all these other issues around gender run inequality is all
Speaker 1: for the average person who is sitting at home and
Speaker 1: wants to do something to improve the way we think
Speaker 1: and talk about masculinity in Australia and around the world,
Speaker 1: Maybe
Speaker 1: either just in their everyday lives or even the way
Speaker 1: it operates in the late private schools. What would be
Speaker 1: one thing? A practical thing that a person at home
Speaker 1: could do not thinking so much about policy or anything
Speaker 1: in government or business days to do, but the average
Speaker 1: person
Speaker 1: Is there anything they can do to try to improve things.
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of my time is electric, trying
Speaker 1: to get people that think critically about the world they
Speaker 1: live in.
Speaker 1: And so
Speaker 1: I guess it's the question you're taken for, granted assumptions
Speaker 1: around gender and keep asking questions. Uh, give you an example.
Speaker 1: You know, I would not consider myself a feminist because
Speaker 1: I think I have so many blind spots around the
Speaker 1: issue of gender equality that all I can do
Speaker 2: is
Speaker 2: ask
Speaker 1: questions and try to pursue understanding of something that is
Speaker 1: so difficult to understand. And you don't live it. Eso
Speaker 1: if you want to understand this idea, and what can
Speaker 1: you do is I would encourage people to try to
Speaker 1: understand it better by asking questions, trying to find, to
Speaker 1: try to have those conversations. I think, probably is the
Speaker 1: starting point to admit that you know, we don't have
Speaker 1: a lock on it. We don't have the answers on that.
Speaker 1: We need to work towards them. I think this is
Speaker 1: the only thing we can all do, and we can
Speaker 1: have these conversations without Children and we can have these
Speaker 1: conversations without friends, and we should have them rather than
Speaker 1: you know, other compensations way have to have these difficult
Speaker 1: conversations on. I think that's probably the starting point. Dr
Speaker 1: George Varian. Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 1: You're very welcome.
Speaker 1: Hi, My name is Dr Sandra Domain. I'm a medical
Speaker 1: doctor and a public health
Speaker 1: expert and advocate on the CEO off Big Health or
Speaker 1: Victorian Health Promotion Foundation.
Speaker 1: Um, and, uh, I'm currently learning how to make salad.
Speaker 1: Sandra de Mayo. Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: The average person at home. Ah, who isn't the CEO
Speaker 1: of health? What in what is the most immediate practical
Speaker 1: thing that any of us average Schmoes condo's to improve
Speaker 1: the way we think and talk about and leave masculinity
Speaker 2: in society?
Speaker 2: Well, look, it's It's hard to ignore what's going on
Speaker 2: in the world around us. And, of course, covert. 19.
Speaker 2: The pandemic is causing enormous disruption
Speaker 2: and
Speaker 2: loss and pain in the lives of many. And and
Speaker 2: this this we know from previous,
Speaker 2: you know, from previous studies on on May, just major
Speaker 2: disruptions in society will likely lead to an increasing family.
Speaker 2: Stress are probably a nagra ovation off existing
Speaker 2: existing um practices around how we respond as individuals that
Speaker 2: kind of fighting flight type responses. Onda could, you know.
Speaker 2: And we are very concerned that this would lead to
Speaker 2: an increase in family violence,
Speaker 2: that it could become more frequent and more severe in
Speaker 2: the current emergency s. So I think you know now
Speaker 2: is is
Speaker 2: is a really important time toe for all men. But
Speaker 2: not this men and boys. For everyone in society to realize,
Speaker 2: you know it's OK during covert 19. For anyone to
Speaker 2: feel scared or uncertain, you don't have to feel strong
Speaker 2: or stoic. You don't have to handle based on your own.
Speaker 2: You don't have to be, you know, the the bread
Speaker 2: winner and the the tough one on do that by
Speaker 2: not doing these. It's definitely not a sign of weakness,
Speaker 2: I think making sure that men and boys, but everyone
Speaker 2: in society that we feel confident and comfortable to share
Speaker 2: the concerns we have to reach out to friends if
Speaker 2: we're feeling overwhelmed, stressed, worried to make sure we maintain
Speaker 2: communication with now mates. We can't have a beer with
Speaker 2: them at the moment. We can't catch up with the pub,
Speaker 2: but we can jump on Skype. We can stay connected on.
Speaker 2: But I think, most importantly, used to know where to
Speaker 2: reach out to you.
Speaker 2: You know, you some, uh, particularly for men. If they
Speaker 2: if they made some help during this time, Um uh,
Speaker 2: particularly around the risks. We know off increased rates of
Speaker 2: family violence. And that's, of course, reaching out to, um,
Speaker 2: 1 800 respect on bond and knowing that there is
Speaker 2: a service there available to talk to,
Speaker 2: you know? But I think that that the take away
Speaker 2: is
Speaker 2: just to remember that thing is this is a tough
Speaker 2: time for everyone and feeling scared, feeling worried, feeling uncertain. Um,
Speaker 2: it doesn't make you any less manly. Everyone will be
Speaker 2: feeling that way at the moment. Talk to your mates.
Speaker 2: I'm staying connected and take care of yourself so that
Speaker 2: you can take care of with others.
Speaker 1: That is some excellent advice to end on. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for your time today, Sandra.
Speaker 1: Yes. So welcome
Speaker 1: some great ideas there. And that was our final episode
Speaker 1: in our series on masculinity. Thanks to all our guests today,
Speaker 1: that's it for this episode. More information on what we
Speaker 1: discussed today can be found in the show notes and
Speaker 1: up next week on new Siri's
Speaker 1: I'm Dr Susan Collins, and thanks for listening to what
Speaker 1: happens next.