1 00:00:00,710 --> 00:00:01,430 Speaker 1: imagine 2 00:00:01,940 --> 00:00:04,940 Speaker 1: living in a time where six men kill themselves every day, 3 00:00:05,050 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: and if we walk back, gonna happen in 100 years. 4 00:00:07,290 --> 00:00:08,930 Speaker 1: It sounds pretty gross, but it's actually, 5 00:00:10,380 --> 00:00:13,190 Speaker 1: you know, originally fake news starts is a critique of 6 00:00:13,190 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: news that's considered to be inaccurate. It's become a term 7 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,419 Speaker 1: that's used now to dismiss any news that you don't like. 8 00:00:19,579 --> 00:00:22,890 Speaker 1: And Iran wanting to young Australians has 9 00:00:24,060 --> 00:00:26,620 Speaker 1: they are unwell generation that 10 00:00:27,420 --> 00:00:30,540 Speaker 1: people don't accept. Climate science. If I think about how 11 00:00:30,540 --> 00:00:33,390 Speaker 1: we're going to save the world, are enables us to 12 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: move in that region. 13 00:00:36,420 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 1: Welcome back to what happens next. So what can we 14 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: as individuals do? In this episode, we'll hear from our 15 00:00:42,930 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: experts about the best way to support men and boys 16 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,070 Speaker 1: to cultivate positive masculinity. We'll find out what works and why, 17 00:00:50,180 --> 00:00:52,270 Speaker 1: and talk about the resources available. 18 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,300 Speaker 1: I am Rebecca Stewart and I am doing. My PhD 19 00:00:59,300 --> 00:01:02,850 Speaker 1: is part of the behavior change. Read your Research Industry Partnership, 20 00:01:02,860 --> 00:01:06,860 Speaker 1: which is a collaboration between Behaviour Works Australia assed part 21 00:01:06,860 --> 00:01:08,910 Speaker 1: of the Monitor Sustainable Development Institute 22 00:01:09,620 --> 00:01:12,630 Speaker 1: in partnership with Victorian Health Promotion Foundation, and I am 23 00:01:12,630 --> 00:01:15,770 Speaker 1: looking at what the key ingredients are too engaging men 24 00:01:15,770 --> 00:01:19,050 Speaker 1: and boys in sustainable shifts in attitudes and behaviors around 25 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:20,270 Speaker 1: healthier versions. 26 00:01:21,770 --> 00:01:24,090 Speaker 1: I'm Britney around from a doctor or researcher at Monash 27 00:01:24,090 --> 00:01:28,420 Speaker 1: University and my research books on masculinity in positive change, 28 00:01:28,790 --> 00:01:30,790 Speaker 1: particularly with regards to men's friendships. 29 00:01:31,790 --> 00:01:35,170 Speaker 1: I'm Steve Roberts, associate professor of sociology at Monash University. 30 00:01:35,180 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 1: In my research area is masculinity and social change. 31 00:01:38,340 --> 00:01:43,270 Speaker 1: Steve Roberts, Britney Ralph, Rebecca Stewart Welcome to the podcast. 32 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: I was having a chat with a really good family 33 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:50,500 Speaker 1: friend is a little boy whose 12 and I was just, 34 00:01:50,500 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: you know, of no enemies, whole life, lovely kid, very gentle, 35 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,190 Speaker 1: growing up in a feminist household. And I said, How 36 00:01:55,190 --> 00:01:57,620 Speaker 1: school going? And he said, Oh, we had It was 37 00:01:57,620 --> 00:01:59,540 Speaker 1: International Women's Day The other day we had an assembly 38 00:01:59,540 --> 00:02:01,850 Speaker 1: and I said, Oh, cool, how is that? He goes. Actually, 39 00:02:01,850 --> 00:02:04,450 Speaker 1: me and my best friend really hated it because it 40 00:02:04,450 --> 00:02:07,660 Speaker 1: wasn't about anything great that women are doing or what 41 00:02:07,660 --> 00:02:10,109 Speaker 1: they've achieved. It just made me and my friend feel 42 00:02:10,110 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: bad for being boys. 43 00:02:11,940 --> 00:02:14,580 Speaker 1: How do we deal with this with young kids in particular, 44 00:02:14,580 --> 00:02:18,330 Speaker 1: I think with men they have the capacity to understand 45 00:02:18,330 --> 00:02:20,770 Speaker 1: this idea of structure. So you might be out of, say, 46 00:02:20,770 --> 00:02:25,030 Speaker 1: to an adult man. Um, I know you are against sexism. Personally, 47 00:02:25,030 --> 00:02:27,350 Speaker 1: you're probably horrified by it, but 48 00:02:28,020 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: you can understand how, even though you might be against that, 49 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:35,220 Speaker 1: you can benefit from a system that reinforces it. But 50 00:02:35,230 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: little kids can't understand that, and all he knows is. 51 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,090 Speaker 1: But I don't hate women, and I and I would 52 00:02:40,090 --> 00:02:42,750 Speaker 1: never think that. And now I just feel bad for 53 00:02:42,750 --> 00:02:46,109 Speaker 1: being a boy. How do we? What do we do 54 00:02:46,110 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: with that? One of the things that it makes me 55 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,809 Speaker 1: think about is the need to amplify the voices of 56 00:02:50,820 --> 00:02:53,019 Speaker 1: boys and men who are 57 00:02:53,740 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: practicing good behavior, right so that I can understand the 58 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,579 Speaker 1: perspective of that little kid because he's hearing all this 59 00:02:59,580 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: negativity and like, Ah, that must be what men act there, 60 00:03:03,370 --> 00:03:06,419 Speaker 1: endorse on value somehow. And I don't doesn't that's what's 61 00:03:06,419 --> 00:03:08,570 Speaker 1: also happening. It's not because they're being told that you're 62 00:03:08,570 --> 00:03:11,390 Speaker 1: a bad person, is probably also thinking that's what men do, 63 00:03:11,389 --> 00:03:14,250 Speaker 1: and they endorse that whatever, and that's actually quite problematic. 64 00:03:14,250 --> 00:03:16,350 Speaker 1: So I think we need more work. And again, this 65 00:03:16,350 --> 00:03:17,930 Speaker 1: is something that filters through all of our work in 66 00:03:17,930 --> 00:03:20,460 Speaker 1: some ways to try and say there's some examples of 67 00:03:20,460 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: how to be a good person 68 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,570 Speaker 1: slash good man, Good boy Andi think we need more 69 00:03:25,570 --> 00:03:27,470 Speaker 1: of that for boys? So any MAWR 70 00:03:28,190 --> 00:03:30,900 Speaker 1: role modeling, I suppose, with the caveat that we know 71 00:03:30,900 --> 00:03:33,900 Speaker 1: that lots of role models also terrible So But we 72 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:37,150 Speaker 1: need to be promoting better forms of masculinity. And in 73 00:03:37,150 --> 00:03:39,150 Speaker 1: those discussions with young boys and men like, 74 00:03:39,740 --> 00:03:42,060 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's difficult. We don't want to be saying 75 00:03:42,060 --> 00:03:43,730 Speaker 1: it's not all men. We know it's not you but 76 00:03:44,020 --> 00:03:46,540 Speaker 1: to point us towards the problem. So we are together 77 00:03:46,540 --> 00:03:49,140 Speaker 1: working against the problem, not pointing at you and saying 78 00:03:49,140 --> 00:03:51,150 Speaker 1: You're the problem. That's kind of a way through it. 79 00:03:51,150 --> 00:03:54,090 Speaker 1: I think it's no easy, but there's nothing definite about 80 00:03:54,100 --> 00:03:56,590 Speaker 1: being a boy, that's what Right? Well, right now we 81 00:03:56,590 --> 00:03:59,090 Speaker 1: teach kids that there is something definite about being a boy, 82 00:03:59,100 --> 00:04:03,410 Speaker 1: and it's not being a girl. Yeah, so that building 83 00:04:03,410 --> 00:04:05,820 Speaker 1: blocks of much earlier like, you know, around boys and 84 00:04:05,820 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: girls toys and this kind of stuff like that kind 85 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,790 Speaker 1: of binary is not helpful because then when they grow 86 00:04:09,790 --> 00:04:12,710 Speaker 1: up the air, boys behaving that way, and and I 87 00:04:12,710 --> 00:04:14,700 Speaker 1: think two of its explained at their level. If we 88 00:04:14,700 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: give them a bit of credit that they are, you know, 89 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,270 Speaker 1: they are living this already. They've been living it since 90 00:04:19,270 --> 00:04:22,289 Speaker 1: they were quite young. They would understand that when you 91 00:04:22,290 --> 00:04:24,270 Speaker 1: go on the playground, there are certain rules for what 92 00:04:24,270 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: boys and girls shouldn't do in this. There's consequences and 93 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: how kids engage with each other and putting it on 94 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,750 Speaker 1: their level and saying, You know, when such and such 95 00:04:31,750 --> 00:04:36,020 Speaker 1: gets teased because he has long hair, for example, Why 96 00:04:36,020 --> 00:04:37,870 Speaker 1: do you think that is is because of the boy? 97 00:04:37,870 --> 00:04:40,150 Speaker 1: Is that fair? Should he have toe, you know, just 98 00:04:40,150 --> 00:04:40,690 Speaker 1: tryingto 99 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,049 Speaker 1: put in in into language they can relate to and 100 00:04:44,050 --> 00:04:46,330 Speaker 1: understand because they are living it. They've been living it 101 00:04:46,330 --> 00:04:48,650 Speaker 1: for a long time, and I think it's an important 102 00:04:48,650 --> 00:04:51,110 Speaker 1: part of the conversation that, um I guess, has been 103 00:04:51,110 --> 00:04:53,110 Speaker 1: missing up until this point, which is we talk a 104 00:04:53,110 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: lot about little girls in particular, can be anything and 105 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:56,549 Speaker 1: do anything 106 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,750 Speaker 1: but we failed to for, and the narrative is often, 107 00:05:01,190 --> 00:05:03,590 Speaker 1: but boys can't be this or can't do that. And 108 00:05:03,589 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: so a lot of young men that I've spoken to 109 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,799 Speaker 1: it and people that are working in the space are 110 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,710 Speaker 1: looking for. So what can I be? What can I do? 111 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,890 Speaker 1: What you know. Everything is quite fraught for a number 112 00:05:15,890 --> 00:05:17,779 Speaker 1: of reasons in the world at this point in time 113 00:05:17,990 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: and a lot of messages searching for connection and will 114 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: continue to do so with a really good point. But 115 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: I like that I like the idea of like, Boys 116 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,870 Speaker 1: need empowering as well because the whole idea in the 117 00:05:27,870 --> 00:05:30,550 Speaker 1: empowerment in the feminist movement is toe let people make 118 00:05:30,550 --> 00:05:32,349 Speaker 1: the choices they want to make, and the same should 119 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,849 Speaker 1: be translated to boys as well. Anything that's absolutely and 120 00:05:34,850 --> 00:05:38,539 Speaker 1: we've done so much. You know, there's no problems with 121 00:05:38,550 --> 00:05:41,870 Speaker 1: a little girl showing up to Book week dressed as 122 00:05:41,870 --> 00:05:46,820 Speaker 1: a male character. But I have a a friend's nephew 123 00:05:46,820 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: who got sent home because he was an address stressed 124 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,150 Speaker 1: up as he's, um, favorite female character out of a book. 125 00:05:53,540 --> 00:05:56,150 Speaker 1: The fact that some of the most powerful people in 126 00:05:56,150 --> 00:06:00,040 Speaker 1: our country still feel the need to shame around those things. 127 00:06:00,210 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: I think we have a lot of work to do it, 128 00:06:01,670 --> 00:06:05,350 Speaker 1: and that's what the organizations that I'm working with. Ah, 129 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: that's kind of their K aim is to really I 130 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,190 Speaker 1: avoid the world the word in power 131 00:06:11,940 --> 00:06:14,810 Speaker 1: because it's, I mean, this is a fraught area where 132 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,700 Speaker 1: you run the risk of all facets jumping up and screaming. 133 00:06:18,700 --> 00:06:23,020 Speaker 1: But that's what it is. It's about helping, particularly young, 134 00:06:23,020 --> 00:06:27,140 Speaker 1: but also any any age man. Understand that those rules 135 00:06:27,140 --> 00:06:30,690 Speaker 1: in the mental shortcuts that you've just thought always the 136 00:06:30,690 --> 00:06:31,750 Speaker 1: way you have to act 137 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,300 Speaker 1: on on. I think I think power started cut off. 138 00:06:35,300 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: I think power is like, really central to the issue 139 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:38,820 Speaker 1: if we connected to these broader issues. 140 00:06:39,430 --> 00:06:42,060 Speaker 1: For men, power comes from dominance for a long time 141 00:06:42,060 --> 00:06:44,820 Speaker 1: and has for a long time come from dominance but 142 00:06:44,820 --> 00:06:45,250 Speaker 1: re 143 00:06:46,089 --> 00:06:49,029 Speaker 1: reshaping our idea of power as impound and what you 144 00:06:49,029 --> 00:06:51,770 Speaker 1: were saying earlier. As as you can do whatever you want, 145 00:06:51,770 --> 00:06:53,539 Speaker 1: you can be whatever you want to be, regardless of 146 00:06:53,540 --> 00:06:54,250 Speaker 1: your gender. 147 00:06:54,990 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 1: That would help to address some of the knock on 148 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: effects later in life, when men feel disempowered in a 149 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:03,070 Speaker 1: society where there is hierarchy among men and and and 150 00:07:03,070 --> 00:07:06,260 Speaker 1: there's class issues. And there's, you know, all these different 151 00:07:06,260 --> 00:07:08,750 Speaker 1: hierarchies that they face, and they feel disempowered by it. 152 00:07:09,190 --> 00:07:11,300 Speaker 1: So they go home and they find other ways to 153 00:07:11,300 --> 00:07:13,820 Speaker 1: feel empowered. And often that's three violent means, whether that's 154 00:07:13,820 --> 00:07:15,900 Speaker 1: their family, whether that's other men on a night out. 155 00:07:16,380 --> 00:07:17,370 Speaker 1: And I think 156 00:07:17,940 --> 00:07:21,820 Speaker 1: if we're gonna change the way that society is going, 157 00:07:21,820 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: we need to really confuse you with power. And when 158 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:25,980 Speaker 1: we get that from in our lives 159 00:07:26,790 --> 00:07:31,510 Speaker 1: way, 160 00:07:38,490 --> 00:07:42,980 Speaker 1: Britney, you've done research on men's friendships have. How have 161 00:07:43,150 --> 00:07:45,950 Speaker 1: men's friendships in Australia changed over time? 162 00:07:46,540 --> 00:07:49,620 Speaker 1: So the study that I'm doing for my PhD research 163 00:07:49,620 --> 00:07:50,890 Speaker 1: talks to fathers and sons? 164 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,260 Speaker 1: Um, and a really interesting thing out of the most 165 00:07:54,270 --> 00:07:56,570 Speaker 1: basic level, we're finding that men are opening up more 166 00:07:56,580 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: at least the men that I'm speaking to on the 167 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,010 Speaker 1: love men you find that are being spoken to in 168 00:08:00,010 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: the literature. 169 00:08:01,140 --> 00:08:05,150 Speaker 1: Um, they're becoming more comfortable with talking about their emotions 170 00:08:05,150 --> 00:08:08,380 Speaker 1: with their male friends, and they're becoming more physically tactile, 171 00:08:08,580 --> 00:08:10,130 Speaker 1: which we know is an important way 172 00:08:10,790 --> 00:08:13,620 Speaker 1: to access feelings of belonging and well being. Um, 173 00:08:14,140 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: a really interesting thing that was mentioned earlier was that 174 00:08:16,650 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: you know we look at young men as this sort 175 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,650 Speaker 1: of beacon of change, and it's definitely true that a 176 00:08:21,650 --> 00:08:25,850 Speaker 1: lot of the younger generations arm or comfortable with being 177 00:08:25,850 --> 00:08:29,020 Speaker 1: intimate with their male friends. What I'm finding with my 178 00:08:29,020 --> 00:08:30,250 Speaker 1: research to is that 179 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: the fathers that I speak to her age between about 180 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:34,369 Speaker 1: 50 and 70 181 00:08:35,100 --> 00:08:38,290 Speaker 1: they're also living in this cultural shift, and they lived 182 00:08:38,290 --> 00:08:40,860 Speaker 1: it 20 years ago as well. And so 183 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,979 Speaker 1: they're also coming up against things in their lives, deaths 184 00:08:44,980 --> 00:08:47,850 Speaker 1: in the family, illness, other forms of trauma, 185 00:08:48,390 --> 00:08:51,140 Speaker 1: and they're changing with with it. So they had this 186 00:08:51,150 --> 00:08:54,250 Speaker 1: had this cultural shift, and they've gone through something traumatic 187 00:08:54,250 --> 00:08:55,309 Speaker 1: and sort of gone. 188 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,510 Speaker 1: A direct quote from one participants is that you get 189 00:08:58,510 --> 00:09:00,430 Speaker 1: to a point where you realize you can't do it 190 00:09:00,429 --> 00:09:02,550 Speaker 1: on your own anymore. And so it isn't just young 191 00:09:02,550 --> 00:09:04,929 Speaker 1: men that are changing. It's also older generations, and they're 192 00:09:04,929 --> 00:09:07,069 Speaker 1: bringing up boys, you know, as a result of their 193 00:09:07,070 --> 00:09:10,370 Speaker 1: experiences in their thirties, they've been more intimate with their sons. 194 00:09:10,530 --> 00:09:13,380 Speaker 1: They have been more open and communicative and caring with 195 00:09:13,380 --> 00:09:16,109 Speaker 1: their sons. And so for the sons, it's just natural. 196 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,010 Speaker 1: Of course, this is only going off. Ah, a small 197 00:09:20,010 --> 00:09:21,780 Speaker 1: sample of men that are willing to speak to me 198 00:09:21,780 --> 00:09:24,660 Speaker 1: as a researcher. So this is not not definitely not 199 00:09:24,660 --> 00:09:27,370 Speaker 1: across the board, but it's It's a sign of positive change. 200 00:09:28,140 --> 00:09:30,580 Speaker 1: All right, guys, give us take home tips. What can 201 00:09:30,580 --> 00:09:32,100 Speaker 1: the average person at home do 202 00:09:32,740 --> 00:09:35,860 Speaker 1: Teoh to improve things in this room? Ah, well, my 203 00:09:35,860 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: bugbear is sharing of domestic chores and childcare on. That's 204 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,020 Speaker 1: not just the physical enactment of those things. It's the 205 00:09:43,020 --> 00:09:44,810 Speaker 1: mental load as well. So a lot of women in 206 00:09:44,809 --> 00:09:49,050 Speaker 1: my life, um, carry that load. I live alone, so 207 00:09:49,100 --> 00:09:52,490 Speaker 1: I carry the whole load. I have a rabbit. He 208 00:09:52,660 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: does not contribute. It'll hopeless, Typical man. Uh uh. But yeah, 209 00:09:57,410 --> 00:10:01,300 Speaker 1: I think it's around modeling and the private sphere as 210 00:10:01,300 --> 00:10:02,590 Speaker 1: much as the public sphere. 211 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,010 Speaker 1: I endorse that I'm a man that tries to live 212 00:10:05,010 --> 00:10:07,990 Speaker 1: his politics, and I can confirm that my wife and 213 00:10:07,990 --> 00:10:11,070 Speaker 1: I share the domestic labour and we're both exhausted rather 214 00:10:11,070 --> 00:10:12,790 Speaker 1: than just one of us being exhausted. So that's good. 215 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: I 216 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:16,970 Speaker 1: said, Yeah, that's what you That's what it leads to. 217 00:10:16,970 --> 00:10:19,949 Speaker 1: You don't actually have spreading of the load. You just 218 00:10:20,210 --> 00:10:22,439 Speaker 1: completely wiped out the whole time. Especially with a little 219 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,690 Speaker 1: baby in tow as well. Um, practical changes, you know, 220 00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:27,150 Speaker 1: I think about this a lot. In terms of that, 221 00:10:27,150 --> 00:10:29,219 Speaker 1: how do I best bring up my son? So he's 222 00:10:29,220 --> 00:10:31,959 Speaker 1: nearly two, and I'm terrified already. Like I have these 223 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:34,090 Speaker 1: thoughts about What if he becomes a rapist? What if 224 00:10:34,090 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: he does these terrible things that that culture teaches boys 225 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: is okay, So I don't know, like, practically, I think, 226 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,830 Speaker 1: the points that backs already raised about being good bystander, 227 00:10:42,830 --> 00:10:45,700 Speaker 1: but again, a za man. And as a formerly a boy, 228 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: I've had a hard time calling out my mates. I try, 229 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:50,970 Speaker 1: you know, and I'm But I'm an academic who's 230 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:52,970 Speaker 1: messed in this stuff all the time. 231 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:54,949 Speaker 1: I would hope that people can 232 00:10:55,730 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: call people out for sexist behavior and sharing of images 233 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,750 Speaker 1: of women, non consensually and that kind of stuff. Yeah. 234 00:11:04,140 --> 00:11:06,809 Speaker 1: Look, I've got a really hard line that I'm telling here. 235 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,929 Speaker 1: I think just talk to people. I If you're a woman, 236 00:11:09,980 --> 00:11:12,489 Speaker 1: talk Teoh, the men in your life. If you're a 237 00:11:12,490 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: man and you need something or you know something's up 238 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,620 Speaker 1: with someone just reach out because you never know when 239 00:11:18,990 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: if that's gonna change someone's life, if reaching out is 240 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,540 Speaker 1: gonna change someone's life and and it's it will change 241 00:11:24,540 --> 00:11:27,650 Speaker 1: your relationships and it'll make you feel more connected. And, 242 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,949 Speaker 1: um, yeah, I think just reach out. 243 00:11:31,490 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: Essentially, 244 00:11:33,250 --> 00:11:35,460 Speaker 1: that's a nice one. Thank you so much to all 245 00:11:35,460 --> 00:11:37,900 Speaker 1: of you for joining us today. Thank thank you Having us. 246 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: My name is George via I lecture in educational leadership 247 00:11:47,130 --> 00:11:48,350 Speaker 1: at Monash University. 248 00:11:48,910 --> 00:11:50,550 Speaker 1: And I do research 249 00:11:51,820 --> 00:11:56,210 Speaker 1: private boy schools, but I also interested in issues, agenda 250 00:11:56,210 --> 00:11:57,110 Speaker 1: and educational. 251 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: Dr. George Varian. Welcome to the show. Thank you for 252 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: having me. 253 00:12:05,740 --> 00:12:08,890 Speaker 1: What do you think is the single most effective thing 254 00:12:08,890 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: we could try to do to change the way our 255 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,750 Speaker 1: culture thinks about masculinity? If you could just change one thing, 256 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:15,860 Speaker 1: what would 257 00:12:15,860 --> 00:12:16,819 Speaker 2: it say? There 258 00:12:16,820 --> 00:12:18,940 Speaker 1: are many things we have to do. I think of 259 00:12:18,940 --> 00:12:21,010 Speaker 1: the let I think, you know, going back again at 260 00:12:21,010 --> 00:12:24,830 Speaker 1: the level of policy. Why are restructuring schooling provision through 261 00:12:24,830 --> 00:12:28,090 Speaker 1: this market lens? I mean, we've demonstrated that the market 262 00:12:28,090 --> 00:12:29,950 Speaker 1: cannot save us in times of crisis 263 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:35,010 Speaker 1: on and now we have gone back. Teoh model where 264 00:12:35,010 --> 00:12:37,550 Speaker 1: the government needs to step in to support workers. 265 00:12:38,090 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: And so saying with schooling, you know, why do we 266 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:47,220 Speaker 1: have these pressurized schooling environments where it's so competitive? Why 267 00:12:47,220 --> 00:12:50,110 Speaker 1: do we, you know, no under sport becomes logical, because 268 00:12:50,110 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: in these competitive schooling in, um, environments, it's going to be, 269 00:12:54,530 --> 00:12:57,900 Speaker 1: you know, me first, right? So how are we all 270 00:12:57,900 --> 00:13:00,910 Speaker 1: in it together? Maybe that's the discourse of education going forward. 271 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,100 Speaker 1: How can we reimagine school such that we're all in 272 00:13:04,100 --> 00:13:07,609 Speaker 1: it together rather than it being? If you can do that, 273 00:13:07,610 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: I think that would be a way forward Dealing with 274 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,449 Speaker 1: all these other issues around gender run inequality is all 275 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: for the average person who is sitting at home and 276 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,090 Speaker 1: wants to do something to improve the way we think 277 00:13:21,090 --> 00:13:25,219 Speaker 1: and talk about masculinity in Australia and around the world, 278 00:13:25,220 --> 00:13:25,620 Speaker 1: Maybe 279 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,950 Speaker 1: either just in their everyday lives or even the way 280 00:13:28,950 --> 00:13:31,290 Speaker 1: it operates in the late private schools. What would be 281 00:13:31,290 --> 00:13:34,150 Speaker 1: one thing? A practical thing that a person at home 282 00:13:34,150 --> 00:13:37,829 Speaker 1: could do not thinking so much about policy or anything 283 00:13:37,830 --> 00:13:40,130 Speaker 1: in government or business days to do, but the average 284 00:13:40,130 --> 00:13:40,820 Speaker 1: person 285 00:13:41,390 --> 00:13:43,770 Speaker 1: Is there anything they can do to try to improve things. 286 00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:46,380 Speaker 1: I spent a lot of my time is electric, trying 287 00:13:46,380 --> 00:13:48,780 Speaker 1: to get people that think critically about the world they 288 00:13:48,780 --> 00:13:49,150 Speaker 1: live in. 289 00:13:50,140 --> 00:13:51,250 Speaker 1: And so 290 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,310 Speaker 1: I guess it's the question you're taken for, granted assumptions 291 00:13:55,309 --> 00:14:00,250 Speaker 1: around gender and keep asking questions. Uh, give you an example. 292 00:14:00,309 --> 00:14:04,719 Speaker 1: You know, I would not consider myself a feminist because 293 00:14:04,730 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 1: I think I have so many blind spots around the 294 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,090 Speaker 1: issue of gender equality that all I can do 295 00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:11,850 Speaker 2: is 296 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 2: ask 297 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 1: questions and try to pursue understanding of something that is 298 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,380 Speaker 1: so difficult to understand. And you don't live it. Eso 299 00:14:20,380 --> 00:14:22,790 Speaker 1: if you want to understand this idea, and what can 300 00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:25,170 Speaker 1: you do is I would encourage people to try to 301 00:14:25,180 --> 00:14:28,190 Speaker 1: understand it better by asking questions, trying to find, to 302 00:14:28,190 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: try to have those conversations. I think, probably is the 303 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,980 Speaker 1: starting point to admit that you know, we don't have 304 00:14:32,980 --> 00:14:35,740 Speaker 1: a lock on it. We don't have the answers on that. 305 00:14:35,740 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: We need to work towards them. I think this is 306 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,430 Speaker 1: the only thing we can all do, and we can 307 00:14:40,430 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: have these conversations without Children and we can have these 308 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: conversations without friends, and we should have them rather than 309 00:14:46,690 --> 00:14:51,850 Speaker 1: you know, other compensations way have to have these difficult 310 00:14:51,850 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: conversations on. I think that's probably the starting point. Dr 311 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,650 Speaker 1: George Varian. Thank you so much for your time. 312 00:14:58,460 --> 00:14:59,850 Speaker 1: You're very welcome. 313 00:15:11,140 --> 00:15:14,140 Speaker 1: Hi, My name is Dr Sandra Domain. I'm a medical 314 00:15:14,140 --> 00:15:15,670 Speaker 1: doctor and a public health 315 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,580 Speaker 1: expert and advocate on the CEO off Big Health or 316 00:15:20,590 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: Victorian Health Promotion Foundation. 317 00:15:23,140 --> 00:15:26,710 Speaker 1: Um, and, uh, I'm currently learning how to make salad. 318 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,830 Speaker 1: Sandra de Mayo. Thank you so much for joining us. 319 00:15:33,340 --> 00:15:33,950 Speaker 2: Thank you. 320 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,490 Speaker 1: The average person at home. Ah, who isn't the CEO 321 00:15:38,490 --> 00:15:43,470 Speaker 1: of health? What in what is the most immediate practical 322 00:15:43,470 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: thing that any of us average Schmoes condo's to improve 323 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:53,770 Speaker 1: the way we think and talk about and leave masculinity 324 00:15:53,890 --> 00:15:54,550 Speaker 2: in society? 325 00:15:55,820 --> 00:15:57,970 Speaker 2: Well, look, it's It's hard to ignore what's going on 326 00:15:57,970 --> 00:16:01,290 Speaker 2: in the world around us. And, of course, covert. 19. 327 00:16:01,290 --> 00:16:06,380 Speaker 2: The pandemic is causing enormous disruption 328 00:16:07,020 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 2: and 329 00:16:08,850 --> 00:16:11,820 Speaker 2: loss and pain in the lives of many. And and 330 00:16:11,820 --> 00:16:14,820 Speaker 2: this this we know from previous, 331 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,490 Speaker 2: you know, from previous studies on on May, just major 332 00:16:19,490 --> 00:16:23,660 Speaker 2: disruptions in society will likely lead to an increasing family. 333 00:16:23,660 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 2: Stress are probably a nagra ovation off existing 334 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 2: existing um practices around how we respond as individuals that 335 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:41,390 Speaker 2: kind of fighting flight type responses. Onda could, you know. 336 00:16:41,390 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 2: And we are very concerned that this would lead to 337 00:16:44,050 --> 00:16:46,910 Speaker 2: an increase in family violence, 338 00:16:47,490 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 2: that it could become more frequent and more severe in 339 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:54,220 Speaker 2: the current emergency s. So I think you know now 340 00:16:54,220 --> 00:16:55,460 Speaker 2: is is 341 00:16:56,190 --> 00:17:00,290 Speaker 2: is a really important time toe for all men. But 342 00:17:00,290 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 2: not this men and boys. For everyone in society to realize, 343 00:17:03,620 --> 00:17:07,730 Speaker 2: you know it's OK during covert 19. For anyone to 344 00:17:07,730 --> 00:17:12,290 Speaker 2: feel scared or uncertain, you don't have to feel strong 345 00:17:12,290 --> 00:17:15,910 Speaker 2: or stoic. You don't have to handle based on your own. 346 00:17:16,450 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 2: You don't have to be, you know, the the bread 347 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 2: winner and the the tough one on do that by 348 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,140 Speaker 2: not doing these. It's definitely not a sign of weakness, 349 00:17:26,150 --> 00:17:29,629 Speaker 2: I think making sure that men and boys, but everyone 350 00:17:29,630 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 2: in society that we feel confident and comfortable to share 351 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,670 Speaker 2: the concerns we have to reach out to friends if 352 00:17:35,670 --> 00:17:40,010 Speaker 2: we're feeling overwhelmed, stressed, worried to make sure we maintain 353 00:17:40,010 --> 00:17:43,470 Speaker 2: communication with now mates. We can't have a beer with 354 00:17:43,470 --> 00:17:45,429 Speaker 2: them at the moment. We can't catch up with the pub, 355 00:17:45,430 --> 00:17:49,030 Speaker 2: but we can jump on Skype. We can stay connected on. 356 00:17:49,030 --> 00:17:51,649 Speaker 2: But I think, most importantly, used to know where to 357 00:17:51,650 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 2: reach out to you. 358 00:17:53,940 --> 00:17:58,270 Speaker 2: You know, you some, uh, particularly for men. If they 359 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,660 Speaker 2: if they made some help during this time, Um uh, 360 00:18:03,310 --> 00:18:08,389 Speaker 2: particularly around the risks. We know off increased rates of 361 00:18:08,390 --> 00:18:12,100 Speaker 2: family violence. And that's, of course, reaching out to, um, 362 00:18:12,750 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 2: 1 800 respect on bond and knowing that there is 363 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,930 Speaker 2: a service there available to talk to, 364 00:18:20,140 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 2: you know? But I think that that the take away 365 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 2: is 366 00:18:23,780 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 2: just to remember that thing is this is a tough 367 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:34,050 Speaker 2: time for everyone and feeling scared, feeling worried, feeling uncertain. Um, 368 00:18:34,740 --> 00:18:38,869 Speaker 2: it doesn't make you any less manly. Everyone will be 369 00:18:38,869 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 2: feeling that way at the moment. Talk to your mates. 370 00:18:41,500 --> 00:18:44,310 Speaker 2: I'm staying connected and take care of yourself so that 371 00:18:44,310 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: you can take care of with others. 372 00:18:48,020 --> 00:18:50,570 Speaker 1: That is some excellent advice to end on. Thank you 373 00:18:50,570 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: so much for your time today, Sandra. 374 00:18:52,859 --> 00:18:54,020 Speaker 1: Yes. So welcome 375 00:18:57,530 --> 00:19:00,550 Speaker 1: some great ideas there. And that was our final episode 376 00:19:00,550 --> 00:19:03,580 Speaker 1: in our series on masculinity. Thanks to all our guests today, 377 00:19:03,590 --> 00:19:06,340 Speaker 1: that's it for this episode. More information on what we 378 00:19:06,340 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: discussed today can be found in the show notes and 379 00:19:08,609 --> 00:19:10,540 Speaker 1: up next week on new Siri's 380 00:19:11,130 --> 00:19:13,890 Speaker 1: I'm Dr Susan Collins, and thanks for listening to what 381 00:19:13,890 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: happens next.