1 00:00:00,460 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: imagine living in a time where six men kill themselves 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:06,540 Speaker 1: every day, and if we walk Basque gonna happen in 3 00:00:06,580 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: 100 years. It sounds pretty gross, but it's actually 4 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: originally fake. News starts is a critique of news that's 5 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: considered to be inaccurate. It's become a term that's used 6 00:00:17,090 --> 00:00:19,709 Speaker 1: now to dismiss any news that you don't like and 7 00:00:19,710 --> 00:00:20,550 Speaker 1: Iran wanted. 8 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:22,980 Speaker 1: Young Australians has a 9 00:00:23,570 --> 00:00:26,620 Speaker 1: provision. They are unwell generation that 10 00:00:27,410 --> 00:00:30,300 Speaker 1: people don't accept climate science. So if I think about 11 00:00:30,310 --> 00:00:33,229 Speaker 1: how we're going to save the world, are enables us 12 00:00:33,229 --> 00:00:34,339 Speaker 1: to move in that region. 13 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,690 Speaker 1: Welcome back to what happens next. This time we're looking 14 00:00:43,690 --> 00:00:47,370 Speaker 1: at how we can counter misinformation, campaigns and fake news. 15 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,480 Speaker 1: We'll hear from experts exploring what we could do differently 16 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:54,420 Speaker 1: to improve the quality of information and media. Dr. David 17 00:00:54,420 --> 00:00:58,670 Speaker 1: Holmes specializes in a different type of communication, using research 18 00:00:58,670 --> 00:01:02,030 Speaker 1: and evidence to identify where and how to get information 19 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,650 Speaker 1: toe large audiences. Margaret Simon is one of the nation's 20 00:01:05,650 --> 00:01:09,970 Speaker 1: most respected reporters, commentators and educators on the state of 21 00:01:09,970 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: the media and politics. She was the founding chair of 22 00:01:13,010 --> 00:01:15,890 Speaker 1: the P I. J I and is a current board member. 23 00:01:16,580 --> 00:01:19,530 Speaker 1: The public interest journalism initiative is on a mission to 24 00:01:19,530 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: save democracy from the decline it faces at the hands 25 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:27,460 Speaker 1: of reducing news budgets and increasingly concentrated media ownership. 26 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,010 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, due to covert, we've had to adapt and do 27 00:01:32,020 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: a number of these interviews by phone. So while occasionally 28 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,550 Speaker 1: the audio isn't as great as always, we promise you 29 00:01:37,550 --> 00:01:38,770 Speaker 1: the content is. 30 00:01:45,930 --> 00:01:49,870 Speaker 1: Joining us is renowned reporter and public interest journalism advocate 31 00:01:49,910 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: Margaret Simon's 32 00:01:51,300 --> 00:01:52,490 Speaker 2: I'm Margaret Diamonds. 33 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:54,030 Speaker 1: I'm a journalist 34 00:01:54,030 --> 00:01:57,970 Speaker 2: and author, journalist, academic handle, a board member 35 00:01:57,980 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: of 36 00:01:58,090 --> 00:01:59,590 Speaker 2: the Public Interest Journalism 37 00:01:59,590 --> 00:02:00,070 Speaker 1: Initiative, 38 00:02:02,820 --> 00:02:06,170 Speaker 1: Margaret Simon's Thank You for Joining Us. What is public 39 00:02:06,170 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: interest journalism as distinct from regular journalism 40 00:02:10,490 --> 00:02:13,620 Speaker 2: when I get better, where driving it is that it Journalism, 41 00:02:13,620 --> 00:02:15,350 Speaker 2: which is democratically import? 42 00:02:16,340 --> 00:02:21,850 Speaker 2: Um, journalism has a number of functions, obviously including an assignment. Um, 43 00:02:21,860 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: but you don't normally includes some celebrity golf it on 44 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,250 Speaker 2: light entertainment on where to get that lock. I under 45 00:02:28,250 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 2: probably interest journalism 46 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:35,530 Speaker 2: that you would include obviously investigative journalism, but also journalism. 47 00:02:35,540 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 2: We've seen through the Corona virus 48 00:02:38,810 --> 00:02:43,430 Speaker 2: crisis, informing people about what the situation is, what the 49 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:48,130 Speaker 2: various responses that situation are have gotten forming and wash 50 00:02:48,130 --> 00:02:53,489 Speaker 2: your hands properly. That's important um, Investigative journalism, which reveals 51 00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:58,750 Speaker 2: musings but also thinks that court reporting, reporting, public meeting, 52 00:02:59,460 --> 00:03:03,070 Speaker 2: reporting public debate or when there's a process such as 53 00:03:03,100 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 2: the Bush wise being there on the ground so that 54 00:03:05,930 --> 00:03:08,300 Speaker 2: we can know what's happening to our fellow citizens and 55 00:03:08,310 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 2: what the implications are. 56 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: So what happens to a society without public interest? Journalism? 57 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:14,450 Speaker 2: Will it around 58 00:03:15,139 --> 00:03:18,790 Speaker 2: very basic into the sense it is. But without information, 59 00:03:18,790 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 2: we don't know what. So we aren't really 60 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:26,350 Speaker 2: society. So you're talking drawn analogy before the invention of 61 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:27,150 Speaker 2: the printing press. 62 00:03:28,150 --> 00:03:30,169 Speaker 2: So we're going back into the sort of 13 and 63 00:03:30,180 --> 00:03:31,450 Speaker 2: 1400 there. 64 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:32,609 Speaker 2: Um, 65 00:03:33,340 --> 00:03:36,770 Speaker 2: Democracy, if you think about it, wasn't really possible. Even 66 00:03:36,770 --> 00:03:41,260 Speaker 2: the idea off the public wasn't really possible because the 67 00:03:41,260 --> 00:03:43,450 Speaker 2: very word public and public interest 68 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,110 Speaker 2: arises from the notion that you can have people who 69 00:03:47,110 --> 00:03:49,750 Speaker 2: don't necessarily know each other in a direction 70 00:03:50,660 --> 00:03:52,950 Speaker 2: but who are connected and to share common interest. 71 00:03:53,700 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 2: And it's really only possible to develop that sense. 72 00:03:57,140 --> 00:04:01,060 Speaker 2: Um, with the communications medium, which could spend physical distance, 73 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 2: Um, and that was, of course, in those days, the 74 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,980 Speaker 2: printing press, which changed everything when you think about it. 75 00:04:07,290 --> 00:04:11,550 Speaker 2: But among other things, Many other things, um, helped to 76 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,050 Speaker 2: make democratic forms of government possible. 77 00:04:15,140 --> 00:04:17,979 Speaker 1: Do you think public interest journalism can act as something 78 00:04:17,980 --> 00:04:19,780 Speaker 1: of an antidote to fake news? 79 00:04:20,540 --> 00:04:23,350 Speaker 2: Yes. I think it is really the only antidote 80 00:04:24,110 --> 00:04:29,150 Speaker 2: we need, um, sources information on which we can rely. 81 00:04:29,589 --> 00:04:33,150 Speaker 2: And I think the error of fake news draws closer 82 00:04:33,150 --> 00:04:35,500 Speaker 2: attention to what it is that good journalists. 83 00:04:36,500 --> 00:04:39,230 Speaker 2: Now, you know, I'm not going to defend everything. Any journal, 84 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 2: every journalist, their bodies, and being very critical of the Michael, 85 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,310 Speaker 2: even my friends, by doing that, but 86 00:04:46,089 --> 00:04:49,610 Speaker 2: we shouldn't lose sight of what good journalism is. Good 87 00:04:49,610 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 2: journalism is information which, as far as is possible within 88 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:55,349 Speaker 2: the time then have been checked. 89 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 2: Um, there are attacked journalists out there talking to people, 90 00:04:59,620 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 2: observing things and reporting on what they have seen. That 91 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 2: is absolutely the antidote. 92 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,570 Speaker 1: What do you think of some of the positive impacts 93 00:05:07,570 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: of having investigative reporting like public interest journalism? I'm thrive 94 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 1: and and reach more people through new channels like podcasts, 95 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:15,650 Speaker 1: for example. 96 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 2: Well, we've seen very real demonstration presented. The world has 97 00:05:20,850 --> 00:05:21,989 Speaker 2: changed around us. 98 00:05:22,740 --> 00:05:26,900 Speaker 2: People have turned back to reliable sources of information. One 99 00:05:26,900 --> 00:05:30,339 Speaker 2: of ones are bean. Looking at in particular is three 100 00:05:30,339 --> 00:05:33,930 Speaker 2: IBC Normal Dr Norman one. There's bean putting out of 101 00:05:33,940 --> 00:05:36,049 Speaker 2: 10 minutes a day, both podcasts on 102 00:05:36,870 --> 00:05:40,460 Speaker 2: on the coronavirus in the lightest research. And it is 103 00:05:40,470 --> 00:05:43,150 Speaker 2: one of the most reliable sources of information. There's a 104 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,580 Speaker 2: time and a lot of people panicking on when there's 105 00:05:45,580 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: a lot of force information around now, without work of journalists, 106 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 2: we wouldn't know what was happening elsewhere in the nation, 107 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 2: where in the world we wouldn't be able to get 108 00:05:57,010 --> 00:05:59,690 Speaker 2: the information to assist with the government's response is or 109 00:05:59,690 --> 00:06:00,650 Speaker 2: is not adequate. 110 00:06:01,339 --> 00:06:04,669 Speaker 2: Um, you know, information is still scanty. This is, ah, 111 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,670 Speaker 2: developing crisis. But imagine what it would be like if 112 00:06:07,670 --> 00:06:09,550 Speaker 2: you could not find any information 113 00:06:10,089 --> 00:06:12,820 Speaker 2: about what was going on. The reality is in this 114 00:06:12,830 --> 00:06:14,549 Speaker 2: sort of situation that would cost lives. 115 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,930 Speaker 1: Do you think the Australian public is generally pretty well 116 00:06:17,930 --> 00:06:18,990 Speaker 1: informed or no, 117 00:06:19,070 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 2: it's hard to generalize on this. In some ways, people 118 00:06:21,730 --> 00:06:25,030 Speaker 2: are better informed than ever. They certainly get their information 119 00:06:25,029 --> 00:06:27,870 Speaker 2: more quickly. But of course, it's coming through a mix 120 00:06:27,870 --> 00:06:28,030 Speaker 2: of 121 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 2: and not all that 122 00:06:31,850 --> 00:06:32,650 Speaker 2: interested in. 123 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: Can you give us any examples off places where journalism 124 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,029 Speaker 1: is going well, where you think this is exactly what 125 00:06:48,029 --> 00:06:50,750 Speaker 1: we need. This is exactly what society needs to be 126 00:06:50,750 --> 00:06:55,250 Speaker 1: heading towards new initiatives, new projects, new approaches that can 127 00:06:55,250 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: give us a bit of hope for the wasteful. Yeah, 128 00:06:57,490 --> 00:06:59,339 Speaker 2: look it hard to do that at the moment, to 129 00:06:59,350 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 2: be perfectly honest with you. And the reason is that 130 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,650 Speaker 2: across Western world, where we have a free media, generally speaking, 131 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:08,390 Speaker 2: journalism is in crisis 132 00:07:09,220 --> 00:07:13,230 Speaker 2: on. That is not because it is still important, and 133 00:07:13,230 --> 00:07:15,970 Speaker 2: it's also not because there's a reduced appetite for is. 134 00:07:15,970 --> 00:07:18,300 Speaker 2: In fact, the appetites and news has never been higher. 135 00:07:18,980 --> 00:07:22,810 Speaker 2: It because the business model, which is supported most journalism 136 00:07:23,660 --> 00:07:24,550 Speaker 2: it's broken. 137 00:07:25,340 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 2: So traditionally, I started my career the Melvin age, for example, 138 00:07:29,430 --> 00:07:32,620 Speaker 2: my salary was effectively paid by pages and pages of 139 00:07:32,630 --> 00:07:35,410 Speaker 2: classified advertisements that used to appear in the back of 140 00:07:35,410 --> 00:07:36,150 Speaker 2: the newspaper. 141 00:07:36,940 --> 00:07:42,210 Speaker 2: Andi. All those fires have now disappeared on to online 142 00:07:42,220 --> 00:07:42,700 Speaker 2: forums 143 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,130 Speaker 2: on the and more recently than that, this is really 144 00:07:46,130 --> 00:07:47,850 Speaker 2: the story of the last five years, 145 00:07:48,570 --> 00:07:52,220 Speaker 2: most of the display advertising has also disappeared and now 146 00:07:52,220 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 2: appears in online platform Um, you know Google Search? 147 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 2: Think so. The advertising revenue has disappeared, and that used 148 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,620 Speaker 2: to be 80% of the revenue of most newspapers actually speaking. 149 00:08:05,740 --> 00:08:08,150 Speaker 2: So that has been devastating. 150 00:08:09,140 --> 00:08:11,650 Speaker 2: There are some hope, signs of hope within that 151 00:08:12,580 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 2: you can see a few quality outlets like The New 152 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,570 Speaker 2: York Times is the best known example, which have been 153 00:08:18,570 --> 00:08:22,950 Speaker 2: able to crawl back a lot of that revenue through descriptions. 154 00:08:23,710 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 2: Pain getting people to pay, direct the news, confident online 155 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: on the Guardian. 156 00:08:30,380 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 2: Does the British, both guardian and our local 157 00:08:33,150 --> 00:08:35,150 Speaker 2: outcrop of is in here in Australia 158 00:08:35,740 --> 00:08:38,930 Speaker 2: have actually made a direct appeal to their readers from 159 00:08:38,929 --> 00:08:41,650 Speaker 2: their journalism? And that has been astonishingly successful? 160 00:08:42,490 --> 00:08:45,490 Speaker 2: Um, and again The Guardian's turned round from being in 161 00:08:45,490 --> 00:08:46,540 Speaker 2: deficit to 162 00:08:47,740 --> 00:08:49,410 Speaker 2: purely on that basis. 163 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,710 Speaker 2: So you know, there are signs of hope. There is 164 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,589 Speaker 2: no evidence at all of the planning appetite, the public 165 00:08:55,590 --> 00:08:58,410 Speaker 2: interest journalism, in fact, of us because it earlier there's 166 00:08:58,420 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 2: never bean so much at the heart for it. And 167 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,830 Speaker 2: I think that's why you're seeing models like The New 168 00:09:03,830 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 2: York Times and The Guardian succeeding because people are wanting 169 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,150 Speaker 2: reliable information more than ever before. That problem is the 170 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:11,340 Speaker 2: business model isn't dead 171 00:09:12,070 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 2: almost. 172 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:16,690 Speaker 1: Margaret Simon's Thank you for Joining us. 173 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,150 Speaker 1: Let's hear from Dr David Holmes, who finds new ways 174 00:09:20,150 --> 00:09:23,380 Speaker 1: to get accurate information to the right. Audiences were in 175 00:09:23,380 --> 00:09:26,250 Speaker 1: an attention economy, and David and his team go where 176 00:09:26,250 --> 00:09:29,850 Speaker 1: the attention is. He says The best approach has three 177 00:09:29,850 --> 00:09:34,570 Speaker 1: K attributes. Large audiences. Clean messages repeated often 178 00:09:36,190 --> 00:09:40,069 Speaker 1: I'm David Holmes and I'm the director of the mannish 179 00:09:40,070 --> 00:09:45,220 Speaker 1: climate Change communication research hub, which researchers ways of building 180 00:09:45,220 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: climate literacy in Australia for a broad range of audiences. 181 00:09:50,490 --> 00:09:52,530 Speaker 1: David Himes Thank you so much for joining us today. 182 00:09:52,540 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: How bad is fake news right now? Well, I think 183 00:09:55,040 --> 00:10:00,140 Speaker 1: you need to distinguish between fake news and disinformation. And 184 00:10:00,150 --> 00:10:02,130 Speaker 1: I think, you know, fake news 185 00:10:02,830 --> 00:10:05,980 Speaker 1: can be a term that's used to attack traditional media, 186 00:10:06,170 --> 00:10:12,469 Speaker 1: which is usually much more trustworthy than social media. But 187 00:10:12,470 --> 00:10:13,449 Speaker 1: not always 188 00:10:14,050 --> 00:10:18,740 Speaker 1: there. There are have been, you know, recent problems with 189 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,689 Speaker 1: coverage of bushfires over summer in Australia, for example, coming 190 00:10:23,690 --> 00:10:28,689 Speaker 1: from legacy media. But I think at relatively social media 191 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,670 Speaker 1: there has beena lot more problems in terms of even 192 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: organized campaigns and bots, and so forth putting out a 193 00:10:36,970 --> 00:10:42,969 Speaker 1: great deal of misinformation, including, You know, that arson was 194 00:10:42,970 --> 00:10:45,990 Speaker 1: the cause of the fires over summer. Or it was 195 00:10:45,990 --> 00:10:50,130 Speaker 1: about totally about the lack of fuel reduction rather than 196 00:10:50,350 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: climate change. Which attribution Studies have shown, really amplified the 197 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,850 Speaker 1: likelihood of the fires happening on the scale that they did. 198 00:11:00,380 --> 00:11:04,820 Speaker 1: How studies at the climate change communication research hub on 199 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,819 Speaker 1: on on people's attitudes to climate change show that that 200 00:11:08,820 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: in fact, there are, you know, at least five Australia's 201 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,210 Speaker 1: to do with climate change. You've got your alarmed and 202 00:11:16,210 --> 00:11:22,150 Speaker 1: your you're concerned your uncertain, cautious and dismissive. And all 203 00:11:22,150 --> 00:11:25,500 Speaker 1: of those groups tend to be in their own filter bubble. 204 00:11:25,570 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: Social media actually reproduces that division rather than 205 00:11:31,980 --> 00:11:33,929 Speaker 1: then helps with, 206 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,530 Speaker 1: you know, going to really what are are the expert 207 00:11:38,530 --> 00:11:40,390 Speaker 1: sources and trusted sources 208 00:11:40,970 --> 00:11:45,270 Speaker 1: that, you know, people can have a consensus view really 209 00:11:45,270 --> 00:11:49,020 Speaker 1: on on a particular you know, sign terrific 210 00:11:49,910 --> 00:11:54,179 Speaker 1: scientific set of facts. Because some aspects of news they 211 00:11:54,179 --> 00:11:57,710 Speaker 1: don't turn on opinion. They actually turn on science such 212 00:11:57,710 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 1: as medical science, that we need to understand that corona 213 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,370 Speaker 1: virus or climate science that you need to understand climate 214 00:12:04,370 --> 00:12:08,900 Speaker 1: change with how bad could things get if it's left unchecked. 215 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,150 Speaker 1: I think the more serious and issue is, the more 216 00:12:13,750 --> 00:12:17,870 Speaker 1: consumers will turn to trusted sources. Okay, so, you know, 217 00:12:17,870 --> 00:12:20,790 Speaker 1: and particularly when it's case of life and death, I mean, 218 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: do you want to get Corona virus? Well, not. No 219 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,210 Speaker 1: one really wants to get a Corona virus after, you know, 220 00:12:27,220 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: reading what actually happens, like factual information about number of 221 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: deaths over season and the way it affects the human body. 222 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:36,510 Speaker 1: So I think 223 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:41,050 Speaker 1: in in, you know, there's a kind of lore of 224 00:12:41,380 --> 00:12:45,860 Speaker 1: quill ablation where the mawr serious an issue is, the 225 00:12:45,860 --> 00:12:48,730 Speaker 1: more people will turn to trusted sources. And we're seeing 226 00:12:48,730 --> 00:12:52,860 Speaker 1: that with the ABC over the Corona virus. And we 227 00:12:52,860 --> 00:12:57,250 Speaker 1: also saw that we've with the bushfires that that when 228 00:12:57,250 --> 00:13:02,110 Speaker 1: people realized there was there was misinformation being distributed via 229 00:13:02,110 --> 00:13:06,260 Speaker 1: social media, they were looking to more and more trusted sources. 230 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,949 Speaker 1: You work for the monitor sh climate change communication research hub. 231 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,150 Speaker 1: Tell us about that festival. What is that? The climate 232 00:13:14,150 --> 00:13:15,750 Speaker 1: change Communication research hub 233 00:13:16,450 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: researchers the best ways to communicate climate change to a 234 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,300 Speaker 1: broad public. And in order to do that, we researched 235 00:13:25,300 --> 00:13:27,290 Speaker 1: a number of things, what one is 236 00:13:27,970 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: the audience and what's called the attention economy. We research 237 00:13:32,290 --> 00:13:37,090 Speaker 1: factual information. So we we get information that's brokered from 238 00:13:37,090 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 1: actual climate scientists who, of course, you know, have a 239 00:13:41,450 --> 00:13:45,670 Speaker 1: consensus view over entropy, genic, climate change or human caused 240 00:13:45,670 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: climate change. And we also look at, well, who are 241 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:53,329 Speaker 1: the most trusted sources to deliver this information because it's 242 00:13:53,330 --> 00:13:57,959 Speaker 1: not necessarily always the climate scientists themselves. What we found 243 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: was that weather presenters the one of the most trusted sources, 244 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 1: so we have partnered with them to present climate information. 245 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,349 Speaker 1: Of course, many weather presenters, meteorologists as well, so they 246 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: are sort of, you know, they have this jewel identity 247 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:12,700 Speaker 1: is being 248 00:14:13,220 --> 00:14:18,950 Speaker 1: public identities as well as a Z trained meteorologists. So 249 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: eso we found that that was a very effective way 250 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,370 Speaker 1: to communicate at factual information that is sort of also 251 00:14:27,380 --> 00:14:31,290 Speaker 1: repeated often, but but with a hole, 252 00:14:31,820 --> 00:14:35,150 Speaker 1: a range of different kinds of facts that that when 253 00:14:35,150 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: you add them up, become multiple lines of evidence that 254 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:43,050 Speaker 1: show trends in very clear ways. Whether present is by definition, 255 00:14:43,050 --> 00:14:46,170 Speaker 1: a kind of local, in other words, they present to 256 00:14:46,180 --> 00:14:49,750 Speaker 1: a city market or it could even be a regional market, 257 00:14:50,340 --> 00:14:54,530 Speaker 1: that the fact of them being local is itself a 258 00:14:54,530 --> 00:14:59,700 Speaker 1: source of trust, whereas an interesting thing about climate information 259 00:14:59,700 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: is that the MAWR global 260 00:15:03,190 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: other facts that you give people the less connected people 261 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,220 Speaker 1: out to those facts. Was it hard to get any 262 00:15:08,220 --> 00:15:09,790 Speaker 1: of those where the presenters on board? 263 00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:12,300 Speaker 1: No. So 264 00:15:12,990 --> 00:15:16,810 Speaker 1: what we did was we are surveyed, all of the 265 00:15:16,810 --> 00:15:20,130 Speaker 1: weather presenters in Australia, and there are only 75 of them. 266 00:15:20,550 --> 00:15:25,810 Speaker 1: And we asked them about their willingness to present climate 267 00:15:25,810 --> 00:15:30,450 Speaker 1: information in there where the bulletin and we found that 91% 268 00:15:30,450 --> 00:15:36,490 Speaker 1: of them we're comfortable with presenting climate information to audiences. 269 00:15:36,490 --> 00:15:40,940 Speaker 1: And so then then we also surveyed the audiences of 270 00:15:40,940 --> 00:15:44,550 Speaker 1: those same weather presenters, and we found with the audiences 271 00:15:45,670 --> 00:15:52,950 Speaker 1: there was a 74% of those audiences were interested in 272 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:59,190 Speaker 1: hearing about local climate statistics over, You know, it's a 273 00:15:59,230 --> 00:16:02,570 Speaker 1: 30 to 50 year time scale and 274 00:16:03,380 --> 00:16:07,300 Speaker 1: because you know, there was an obvious audience appetite. This 275 00:16:07,300 --> 00:16:09,850 Speaker 1: was very influential in 276 00:16:10,430 --> 00:16:14,150 Speaker 1: also, then use directors coming on board. So So really, 277 00:16:14,750 --> 00:16:18,410 Speaker 1: That meant we could pilot with a couple of presenters, 278 00:16:18,590 --> 00:16:21,740 Speaker 1: which was Jane Bonnet, Channel seven in Melbourne and pull 279 00:16:21,740 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: Higgins at ABC. And they kind of pioneered this new 280 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: change up to how the weather is done. And after 281 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,330 Speaker 1: that happened, we simply were able to just point to 282 00:16:34,330 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: how they they had done it in Melbourne in two 283 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:40,970 Speaker 1: other presenters around Australia. And now we have 14 where 284 00:16:40,970 --> 00:16:42,510 Speaker 1: the presenters around Australia 285 00:16:43,540 --> 00:16:47,950 Speaker 1: who reach 1/3 off Australia's television audience. 286 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,660 Speaker 1: It's very clever, you know, I think what we think 287 00:16:50,660 --> 00:16:53,810 Speaker 1: about the way we communicate about climate change. Often it 288 00:16:53,810 --> 00:16:57,670 Speaker 1: is that sort of scare tactics. Everything's we're all gonna 289 00:16:57,670 --> 00:16:59,910 Speaker 1: die any minute, and everything's gonna be hard and we've 290 00:16:59,910 --> 00:17:02,510 Speaker 1: gone past a 1,000,000. Don't turn back. You can't turn 291 00:17:02,510 --> 00:17:05,370 Speaker 1: back now. Points. Was it hard for you to feel 292 00:17:05,369 --> 00:17:09,810 Speaker 1: that something mawr gentle, I guess, or less in your 293 00:17:09,810 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 1: face could be effective. We had done research showing that 294 00:17:13,890 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: overseas in the United States, a method known as non 295 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:24,100 Speaker 1: persuasive communication. What was very successful, what non persuasive communication 296 00:17:24,100 --> 00:17:28,810 Speaker 1: does is that it? It really cuts across those five 297 00:17:28,810 --> 00:17:33,250 Speaker 1: Australians that I was talking about before because, you know, 298 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 1: people are very familiar with weather presenters. They tend to 299 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,609 Speaker 1: be anchor people who were there on your television screen. 300 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,110 Speaker 1: When you come home at a certain time of the day, 301 00:17:42,109 --> 00:17:48,889 Speaker 1: they highly trusted they, you know, people already have. You know, 302 00:17:48,890 --> 00:17:54,330 Speaker 1: they already have people's attention. Non persuasive communication really contrast 303 00:17:54,330 --> 00:17:59,390 Speaker 1: with the kind of communication at an advocacy that NGOs do, 304 00:17:59,390 --> 00:17:59,980 Speaker 1: which is 305 00:18:00,490 --> 00:18:05,090 Speaker 1: kind of, you know, like a form of shouting, Really, 306 00:18:05,170 --> 00:18:10,580 Speaker 1: whereby it's about getting attention on. Did sort of waving 307 00:18:10,580 --> 00:18:13,230 Speaker 1: a flag and saying, Listen to what we have to 308 00:18:13,230 --> 00:18:15,699 Speaker 1: say Whether it's, you know, an alarm, the message of 309 00:18:15,710 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 1: concern message. And our audiences tend to pigeonhole that well, 310 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 1: of course, they will say that because they're an NGO 311 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,130 Speaker 1: and that's what that's a sort of line that they 312 00:18:25,140 --> 00:18:25,690 Speaker 1: push 313 00:18:26,650 --> 00:18:30,670 Speaker 1: but been, in a way, what you're doing there. He's 314 00:18:30,670 --> 00:18:34,740 Speaker 1: actually entrenching those five Australians, you know, so that the 315 00:18:34,740 --> 00:18:39,260 Speaker 1: alarmed might be impressed. The concern might be impressed. The dismissive, 316 00:18:39,540 --> 00:18:42,300 Speaker 1: you know, really gets their backs up and the cautious 317 00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:45,510 Speaker 1: and uncertain black. You may lose those groups, 318 00:18:46,210 --> 00:18:50,869 Speaker 1: so what you need is a message that are that 319 00:18:50,869 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: works with all five groups and not just, you know, 320 00:18:54,250 --> 00:18:58,010 Speaker 1: preaching to the converted in a way so are so 321 00:18:58,020 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: non persuasive. Communication does that, but it only works if 322 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,369 Speaker 1: you just present factual information. 323 00:19:04,340 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: I think there are other things beyond climate change that 324 00:19:12,050 --> 00:19:15,420 Speaker 1: this a similar approach could work for other social issues 325 00:19:15,420 --> 00:19:20,149 Speaker 1: or areas where we need to create a bit of change. Yeah, 326 00:19:20,150 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: I think, Really, Any area where there is misinformation and 327 00:19:25,090 --> 00:19:28,980 Speaker 1: it is clear that that misinformation needs to be corrected. 328 00:19:29,010 --> 00:19:29,660 Speaker 1: I think, 329 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,230 Speaker 1: you know, going back to the experts, finding trusted sources 330 00:19:34,230 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 1: to communicate what they have to say, which may not 331 00:19:37,650 --> 00:19:40,050 Speaker 1: necessarily be those experts themselves. 332 00:19:41,330 --> 00:19:46,970 Speaker 1: And, um, repeating those messages often as well. So you 333 00:19:46,970 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: know what one area might, you know, could be health, 334 00:19:49,850 --> 00:19:52,770 Speaker 1: you know, with Corona virus. You know, you could see 335 00:19:53,050 --> 00:19:57,130 Speaker 1: you can see at the moment there is much misinformation around, 336 00:19:57,140 --> 00:19:58,070 Speaker 1: and 337 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,869 Speaker 1: some of which even comes from from leaders of, ah, 338 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: very large nations, which needs to be corrected. And I 339 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:08,510 Speaker 1: think 340 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: so. Any program that's able to, you know, broker the 341 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 1: expertise and, you know, have that come from trusted sources 342 00:20:17,650 --> 00:20:18,350 Speaker 1: is 343 00:20:19,050 --> 00:20:22,940 Speaker 1: generally in the public interest. Who does your research tell 344 00:20:22,940 --> 00:20:26,060 Speaker 1: you is the most trusted person in Australia. Yeah, well, 345 00:20:26,060 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: good question. I mean, I don't think there is such 346 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,170 Speaker 1: a thing as a trusted source who, you know, can 347 00:20:31,170 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: handle all issues that audiences would be satisfied with. But 348 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:36,660 Speaker 1: certainly our research on 349 00:20:37,270 --> 00:20:42,590 Speaker 1: trusted sources on climate change shows that climate scientists are 350 00:20:42,590 --> 00:20:46,770 Speaker 1: still the most trusted source, which is thankfully because it's 351 00:20:46,780 --> 00:20:48,570 Speaker 1: the scientists, after all, 352 00:20:49,340 --> 00:20:55,369 Speaker 1: but interestingly, their clothes, their followed by farmers, bean firefighters 353 00:20:55,380 --> 00:20:59,470 Speaker 1: and then weather presenters. So the reason we went with 354 00:20:59,470 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: weather presenters in our programs, of course, is because weather 355 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:07,330 Speaker 1: presenters are also skilled communicators and they have access to 356 00:21:07,330 --> 00:21:12,330 Speaker 1: very large audiences. But going back to farmers and firefighters. 357 00:21:12,340 --> 00:21:16,510 Speaker 1: You know what's interesting about those people is that they 358 00:21:16,510 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: are sort of regarded by the public as at the 359 00:21:19,810 --> 00:21:24,010 Speaker 1: front line of climate change. You know, you've got farmers 360 00:21:24,010 --> 00:21:26,710 Speaker 1: have to figure out how toe grow our food in 361 00:21:26,710 --> 00:21:31,210 Speaker 1: times of extreme weather and drought. You've got firefighters actually 362 00:21:31,210 --> 00:21:34,900 Speaker 1: having to put out a massive fire storms as we 363 00:21:34,900 --> 00:21:38,980 Speaker 1: saw last summer, and people feel this rial empathy with 364 00:21:38,980 --> 00:21:42,770 Speaker 1: them that they actually understand climate change because they have 365 00:21:42,770 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: to live with it in the job. Ah, We also 366 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:51,310 Speaker 1: found in our research that the least trusted group on 367 00:21:51,310 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: climate change were politicians, 368 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,889 Speaker 1: and this was paradoxical because we also at the same 369 00:21:57,890 --> 00:22:01,310 Speaker 1: time found that politicians tended to get more air time 370 00:22:01,310 --> 00:22:04,870 Speaker 1: than anyone else on climate change. So this can also 371 00:22:04,869 --> 00:22:07,650 Speaker 1: be a real turn off, where it's kind of like 372 00:22:07,750 --> 00:22:10,959 Speaker 1: it can sort of be associated with fake news in 373 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:11,820 Speaker 1: the sense that 374 00:22:12,810 --> 00:22:14,969 Speaker 1: that politicians, you know, 375 00:22:15,770 --> 00:22:20,859 Speaker 1: this so called debate about something that's actually based on science, 376 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,330 Speaker 1: where politicians there just seemed to be saying, Whatever is 377 00:22:24,330 --> 00:22:28,380 Speaker 1: in their interest in this debate. And so, you know, 378 00:22:28,380 --> 00:22:30,730 Speaker 1: there's a kind of hollowing out of values to do 379 00:22:30,730 --> 00:22:32,500 Speaker 1: with that. Like who? You know who. Who do you 380 00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:36,690 Speaker 1: believe with the politicians and and seriously, some audiences. When 381 00:22:36,690 --> 00:22:39,220 Speaker 1: you ask them what is climate change? It's sort of like, Well, 382 00:22:39,220 --> 00:22:41,949 Speaker 1: isn't that what politicians talk about? And it sort of 383 00:22:41,950 --> 00:22:45,609 Speaker 1: becomes divorced from the actual physics that it's something actually 384 00:22:45,609 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: happening outside, and it's happening right now. It's sort of 385 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,830 Speaker 1: equated as some just some debate that happens in a Parliament. 386 00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:58,610 Speaker 1: You know, if you were running a campaign about climate change, 387 00:22:58,619 --> 00:23:02,659 Speaker 1: you know I recommend to people you you really need 388 00:23:02,660 --> 00:23:08,169 Speaker 1: Teoh enlist a farmer or a firefighter or or a 389 00:23:08,170 --> 00:23:11,290 Speaker 1: climate scientists to do your messaging for you rather than 390 00:23:11,300 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: a politician. 391 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,250 Speaker 1: Well, bad news for politicians, but good news for farmers. 392 00:23:16,450 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 1: Maybe we should talk to their next 393 00:23:19,010 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: Dr David Holmes. This has been incredibly interesting. Thank you 394 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: so much for your time. Great to hear those insights 395 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,220 Speaker 1: from Margaret Simon's and David Holmes in the next episode 396 00:23:28,220 --> 00:23:31,650 Speaker 1: will round up all the experts. Best tips for navigating 397 00:23:31,650 --> 00:23:36,310 Speaker 1: through the online Meyer toe identify accurate information from reputable sources. 398 00:23:36,740 --> 00:23:39,899 Speaker 1: Thanks to our guest today, Margaret Simon's and David Holmes. 399 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode. More information on what we 400 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,479 Speaker 1: discussed today can be found in the show notes. 401 00:23:46,130 --> 00:23:48,500 Speaker 1: I'll catch you next time on what happens next.