WEBVTT - Can NFTs Help Digital Artists? 0:00:02.340 --> 0:00:06.230 Welcome back to what happens next the podcast that examines 0:00:06.230 --> 0:00:09.260 some of the biggest challenges facing our world and ask 0:00:09.260 --> 0:00:12.789 the experts what will happen if we don't change and 0:00:12.789 --> 0:00:15.550 what can we do to create a better future? I'm 0:00:15.550 --> 0:00:19.680 dr Susan Karlin, keep listening to find out what happens next. 0:00:27.050 --> 0:00:29.390 N. F. T. S. Are an interesting use of crypto 0:00:29.390 --> 0:00:33.129 technology and could enable artists to make a living from 0:00:33.130 --> 0:00:36.900 their work. But they could also be, well kind of silly. 0:00:36.909 --> 0:00:41.030 Do they work are they here to stay R. N. F. T. S. 0:00:41.030 --> 0:00:43.910 As nifty as they seem? Stay with us over the 0:00:43.909 --> 0:00:46.750 next two episodes of what happens next As we take 0:00:46.750 --> 0:00:48.230 a look at N. F. T. S. 0:00:52.260 --> 0:00:55.510 So firstly and don't laugh at me. Tech heads, what 0:00:55.510 --> 0:00:58.450 the hell is an N. F. T. Oh boy. How 0:00:58.450 --> 0:00:59.580 long is this podcast? 0:01:01.750 --> 0:01:03.710 This is going to be a challenge. But I'll try. 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:08.780 It exists in this world we can't touch and we 0:01:08.780 --> 0:01:09.450 can't see. 0:01:09.459 --> 0:01:13.890 The short answer is it's a non fungible token. Non fungible. Hey, 0:01:13.900 --> 0:01:14.580 when 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:19.270 it's non fungible it's got an identification number that's unique 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:20.199 to that token. 0:01:20.370 --> 0:01:24.550 Okay, so N. F. T. Stands for non fungible token. 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:28.119 Non fungible means it can't be replaced. But that sounds 0:01:28.130 --> 0:01:30.910 odd because an N. F. T. Is usually an artwork 0:01:30.910 --> 0:01:33.440 in the form of a digital file, like a jpeg 0:01:33.450 --> 0:01:37.260 or video, which can obviously be duplicated copied and shared 0:01:37.270 --> 0:01:42.060 over and over again. However, and if I'm following this right. 0:01:42.069 --> 0:01:45.560 What makes an N. F. T. Unique is that every N. F. T. 0:01:45.569 --> 0:01:50.490 Artwork has its own code. Can someone please just give 0:01:50.490 --> 0:01:52.240 me a simple definition. 0:01:52.740 --> 0:01:56.330 Okay it's a it's a digital receipt 0:01:58.660 --> 0:02:02.250 a digital receipt a digital receipt. There we go. That 0:02:02.250 --> 0:02:10.810 was easy attached to a Blockchain which is okay so 0:02:10.810 --> 0:02:13.400 an N. F. T. Is a unique token that is 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:16.630 attached to the Blockchain. You know the Blockchain? It's like 0:02:16.630 --> 0:02:19.060 a shared database of transactions on the. 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:24.470 Okay how about I get art lawyer Alana Kushnir to explain. 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:27.240 Well the first question really is what is Blockchain? I 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:29.800 think when you're trying to understand what an N. F. T. 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:33.120 Is you have to question what is Blockchain? Blockchain is 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:34.760 a type of a technology 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:40.680 which is a distributed ledger where transactions are recorded and 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:43.180 the idea is they're immutable in that they can never 0:02:43.180 --> 0:02:46.630 be hacked or change. They can only be built on 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.620 top of it's written in stone is written in stone. 0:02:49.630 --> 0:02:51.870 So part of the value of N. F. T. S. 0:02:51.870 --> 0:02:53.980 Comes with this immune ability that the block 0:02:53.990 --> 0:02:58.049 chain gives N. F. T. So tokens essentially live on 0:02:58.050 --> 0:03:02.269 the Blockchain tokens represent the transactions that are recorded on 0:03:02.270 --> 0:03:04.810 the Blockchain and some of those are fungible. Some of 0:03:04.810 --> 0:03:09.820 those are non fungible and fungible tokens are Bitcoin ethereum 0:03:09.820 --> 0:03:12.820 that your cryptocurrencies and the idea is if I had 0:03:12.830 --> 0:03:17.220 one Bitcoin and you had one Bitcoin we exchange those, 0:03:17.220 --> 0:03:18.649 we would end up with the same 0:03:18.790 --> 0:03:23.210 amount. Whereas a non fungible token is slightly different. So 0:03:23.210 --> 0:03:25.750 it's kind of like if I bought a Picasso and 0:03:25.750 --> 0:03:29.600 you bought a Rembrandt and we exchange those paintings, we 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:31.750 wouldn't end up with the same thing that we started 0:03:31.750 --> 0:03:33.990 off with. So they're non fungible. So the idea is 0:03:33.990 --> 0:03:37.060 the token is unique and that's also a part of 0:03:37.060 --> 0:03:40.320 the value of non non fungible tokens lies because they 0:03:40.330 --> 0:03:42.670 are unique on the Blockchain. We can tell that there's 0:03:42.670 --> 0:03:44.320 only one of that type. 0:03:46.350 --> 0:03:49.210 So if I'm an artist, how do I create one 0:03:49.210 --> 0:03:51.950 of these tokens? How do I make an N. F. T. 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:54.020 I need to speak to a digital artist. 0:03:54.030 --> 0:03:59.080 Hi I'm john McCormack, a computer artist and computer scientist 0:03:59.090 --> 0:04:01.960 and I'm the director of Sensei Lab, a creative technologies 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:04.620 lab at Monash University's caulfield campus. 0:04:06.110 --> 0:04:08.010 Right? I want to create an N. F. T. For 0:04:08.010 --> 0:04:11.010 this painting that I've created. How do I do that? 0:04:11.010 --> 0:04:12.730 How do I make an N. F. T. For that? 0:04:12.740 --> 0:04:15.680 So usually you do it via one of the many 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:19.660 sites that deal in cryptocurrencies and N. F. T. S. 0:04:19.670 --> 0:04:22.420 So you basically go onto the site, you have to 0:04:22.420 --> 0:04:25.960 have a digital asset usually associated with your work people 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:30.650 have associated with physical paintings or physical objects as well. 0:04:31.060 --> 0:04:35.140 Um And then basically you pay what's called a gas 0:04:35.140 --> 0:04:38.050 fee which is the fee to generate some unique token 0:04:38.050 --> 0:04:40.410 which is the N. F. T. Itself and you get 0:04:40.410 --> 0:04:44.770 given the N. F. T. Digitally and then someone can 0:04:44.779 --> 0:04:48.070 buy that N. F. T. From you and transfer ownership 0:04:48.070 --> 0:04:51.120 from you to the person who buys that. 0:04:52.670 --> 0:04:55.290 Okay, so if I'm an artist I can turn an 0:04:55.300 --> 0:04:58.679 artwork into an N. F. T. And sell it. However, 0:04:58.690 --> 0:05:01.420 if I'm buying an N. F. T. What do I 0:05:01.430 --> 0:05:02.900 actually own? 0:05:03.830 --> 0:05:06.500 Hi, My name is Ben Hayward. I'm a senior lecturer 0:05:06.500 --> 0:05:08.810 in the Department of Business Law and taxation at the 0:05:08.810 --> 0:05:11.990 Monash business School. And my research work looks at how 0:05:11.990 --> 0:05:16.219 the law can support international trade in various forms in particular. 0:05:17.060 --> 0:05:17.420 So 0:05:17.420 --> 0:05:19.780 you don't really own that artwork in the same way 0:05:19.779 --> 0:05:22.390 that you might own a physical painting. What you worrying 0:05:22.390 --> 0:05:24.990 is the token and it's linked to some extra right? 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:27.300 You can actually think of it like buying a bottle 0:05:27.300 --> 0:05:29.090 of water from a vending machine or 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.750 um you know, buy a cup of coffee when you 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:34.930 buy that bottle of water or a coffee. You own 0:05:34.930 --> 0:05:37.540 that property, you can enjoy it to the exclusion of 0:05:37.550 --> 0:05:40.719 anybody else. That's the kind of that's the fundamental principle 0:05:40.730 --> 0:05:43.729 of personal property. It's something that you can possess and 0:05:43.730 --> 0:05:45.820 you can possess it to the exclusion of anyone else. 0:05:45.830 --> 0:05:49.130 So take that in the context of a painting or 0:05:49.130 --> 0:05:51.350 a sculpture, you buy your painting, you buy a sculpture, 0:05:51.350 --> 0:05:51.760 you can 0:05:51.890 --> 0:05:55.560 display in your house, you can loan it to somebody. 0:05:55.570 --> 0:05:56.980 You know, you could loan it to a museum for 0:05:56.980 --> 0:06:00.530 an exhibition, you could sell it as well. Um So 0:06:00.529 --> 0:06:04.409 that's your kind of traditional artwork. Um But you know 0:06:04.410 --> 0:06:06.370 when it comes to digital artwork it's a little bit 0:06:06.380 --> 0:06:09.700 different and that's because it's so easy to reproduce. Right? 0:06:09.700 --> 0:06:10.099 So 0:06:10.290 --> 0:06:13.300 you don't necessarily, you know, if I send it to 0:06:13.300 --> 0:06:16.690 you via email, you know, a digital file, we could 0:06:16.690 --> 0:06:19.400 both enjoy it at the same time. You could look 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:21.150 at the image the digital file and I could look 0:06:21.150 --> 0:06:22.580 at it on, you know, we could be in complete 0:06:22.580 --> 0:06:24.670 other sides of the world and we can both enjoy 0:06:24.670 --> 0:06:27.450 it um as it's meant to be enjoyed. So in 0:06:27.450 --> 0:06:32.360 that way a digital artwork has some fundamental differences to 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:34.040 a painting or a sculpture. 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.710 Um And you know if we look at the history 0:06:36.710 --> 0:06:39.410 of art and especially you know, late modern art and 0:06:39.410 --> 0:06:43.260 contemporary art, a lot of artists were um driven by 0:06:43.260 --> 0:06:47.739 this idea of wanting to question this idea of what 0:06:47.740 --> 0:06:50.539 is an original artwork. What is an authentic artwork? The 0:06:50.540 --> 0:06:54.480 idea that there's no, you know, in today's world there's 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:58.340 no such thing as the one authentic piece. Um You know, 0:06:58.339 --> 0:07:01.219 think of like performance art for example, that's also intangible. 0:07:01.220 --> 0:07:01.600 So 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:04.370 you know in some ways I also think digital artworks 0:07:04.370 --> 0:07:06.950 and FTS not so new artists have really been pushing 0:07:06.950 --> 0:07:09.360 the boundaries when it comes to what is art and 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.080 what you buy when you buy an artwork for far 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:15.810 longer than N. F. T. S. Have existed. What N. F. T. S. 0:07:15.810 --> 0:07:18.850 Do though is um you know from a very practical 0:07:18.850 --> 0:07:22.200 level they do tell us who owns that N. F. T. 0:07:22.210 --> 0:07:25.960 Who owns that digital artwork. So that's the that's the 0:07:25.970 --> 0:07:30.260 basic benefit of minting your digital artwork as an N. F. T. 0:07:31.650 --> 0:07:35.090 So why are people so excited about N. F. T. S. 0:07:35.100 --> 0:07:36.710 Here's Ben Hayward. 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:39.900 I think people get excited about anything that's new. People 0:07:39.900 --> 0:07:42.580 got excited about the Beatles and Elvis when they hit 0:07:42.580 --> 0:07:45.180 the scene. And I wonder if it's really much different, 0:07:45.190 --> 0:07:48.470 much different to that. Um I think it's it's a 0:07:48.470 --> 0:07:52.820 way for us to explore new types of trade and 0:07:52.820 --> 0:07:55.670 you know in the future this may be something that persists. 0:07:55.670 --> 0:07:57.690 We might end up using N. F. T. S. For 0:07:57.690 --> 0:08:00.710 different purposes. It's a bit hard to know at this 0:08:00.710 --> 0:08:03.940 stage but they give us an opportunity to do something 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.120 we've never really done before. And I guess for the 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:10.500 purpose of trading art where previously you have a digital 0:08:10.500 --> 0:08:14.740 file that represents some artwork that's infinitely reproducible meaning its 0:08:14.740 --> 0:08:16.520 value is basically nothing. 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:20.210 Not really a very attractive prospect for trading those kinds 0:08:20.210 --> 0:08:24.250 of artworks online. And this is a way to maybe 0:08:24.260 --> 0:08:28.050 deal with that make online artwork unique and allow it 0:08:28.050 --> 0:08:31.820 to have a tradable value and possibly support artists at 0:08:31.820 --> 0:08:32.550 the same time. 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:36.059 Do you think N. F. T. S. Are beneficial for artists? 0:08:36.460 --> 0:08:40.360 They could be in the sense that I don't know 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:43.250 that there was really an effective way to trade digital 0:08:43.260 --> 0:08:45.570 art before this technology. 0:08:45.910 --> 0:08:48.930 I guess artists are going to want to make sure 0:08:48.929 --> 0:08:52.160 that the contracts they have in place around the trade 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:54.670 in these N. F. T. S are beneficial to them. 0:08:54.670 --> 0:08:58.280 Whether that means retaining the intellectual property rights, making sure 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:02.020 they are properly paid for the work they're producing, 0:09:02.170 --> 0:09:04.840 but I guess, as we've said, if you've got an 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:11.370 ordinary file infinitely reproducible, so effectively worth nothing, this situation 0:09:11.380 --> 0:09:14.839 has some definite advantages over that. Personally. I have a 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:17.850 lot of reservations, so I've never really used them. 0:09:17.860 --> 0:09:20.870 Here's Director of Sensei Lab, john McCormack 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:23.800 dabbled a little bit, but I didn't really get in 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:26.130 when it was, I probably could have probably wouldn't be 0:09:26.130 --> 0:09:27.390 talking to you now, or you'll be talking to me 0:09:27.390 --> 0:09:30.210 from my multi million dollar apartment somewhere 0:09:30.860 --> 0:09:35.719 wherever. Um if I had. But um I'm not sure, 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:37.860 I mean, I do appreciate the fact that there were 0:09:37.860 --> 0:09:40.110 a lot of people who had menial jobs who wanted 0:09:40.110 --> 0:09:44.370 to be artists who suddenly could could live that that possibility. 0:09:44.380 --> 0:09:46.880 I mean, being an artist and earning money to things 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:49.179 that normally don't go together, and if you look at, 0:09:49.190 --> 0:09:52.709 even in Australia, the average income of people who professionally say, 0:09:52.710 --> 0:09:56.809 the artist is amongst the lowest of any profession, 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:00.800 so I certainly don't want to deny people, you know, 0:10:00.809 --> 0:10:04.540 if a technical mechanism enables somebody to earn a living 0:10:04.540 --> 0:10:08.079 from something that is creative and gives them enjoy them 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:11.150 pleasure and gives other people enjoyment, then I think that's 0:10:11.150 --> 0:10:12.280 a fantastic thing, 0:10:12.730 --> 0:10:16.800 but also, you know, cryptocurrencies ultimately are kind of Ponzi schemes. 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:19.949 They're basically they rely on a whole lot of collective 0:10:19.950 --> 0:10:23.069 herd mentality about the value of something that doesn't really 0:10:23.070 --> 0:10:24.640 actually have that value. 0:10:24.650 --> 0:10:28.670 N. F. T. Proponents might say that it helps protect 0:10:28.670 --> 0:10:32.530 from fraud and theft, because you've got this untraceable digital 0:10:32.530 --> 0:10:35.650 receipt that's forever linked to a particular artwork, but that's 0:10:36.380 --> 0:10:38.800 yeah, that doesn't, to my mind that doesn't hold up 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:41.580 to scrutiny at all, josh. Drummond is an artist from 0:10:41.580 --> 0:10:44.670 new Zealand and a very proud N. F. T cynic. 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:48.070 One of the major problems when I first got big 0:10:48.070 --> 0:10:49.050 was people would 0:10:49.730 --> 0:10:52.979 um N. F. T. Fans or grifters or whatever, um 0:10:52.990 --> 0:10:56.620 would grab someone's jpeg that's floating around on the internet, 0:10:56.630 --> 0:10:59.690 like like a named artist or someone, someone with the following, 0:10:59.700 --> 0:11:02.559 they take their work and just sell it, make an N. F. D. 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:05.179 Of it and sell someone else's stuff that's that's just 0:11:05.190 --> 0:11:08.290 that's just stealing and it facilitated tons of this stuff 0:11:08.300 --> 0:11:11.720 and none of the N. F. T. Marketplace is originally, 0:11:11.809 --> 0:11:15.199 and I still don't really think currently had super robust 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.400 systems in place to protect against this. So they didn't 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:19.219 really facilitate um 0:11:19.620 --> 0:11:22.569 and viability, they actually just made it a lot easier 0:11:22.570 --> 0:11:25.400 to steal I'm not gonna lie, this is a big 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:27.569 problem at the moment, and I'm finding that a lot 0:11:27.570 --> 0:11:31.720 of artists that I work with are finding copycat N. F. T. 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:34.230 S of their works online and they ask the same question, 0:11:34.230 --> 0:11:35.830 what do I do, what can I do at this 0:11:35.830 --> 0:11:39.600 point in time? Most mainstream and FT platforms have set 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:42.440 out what we call a D. M. C. A takedown 0:11:42.450 --> 0:11:47.120 notification process. And that's essentially an american style of requesting 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:48.990 that you take down infringing content 0:11:49.250 --> 0:11:52.660 and you have to follow the strict guidelines that the 0:11:52.660 --> 0:11:55.270 platform sets out in order to do that. But you know, 0:11:55.270 --> 0:11:58.160 even myself in practice when I've acted for artists and 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:01.200 we've done these takedown notices, it hasn't been that straightforward 0:12:01.210 --> 0:12:03.720 even a year ago. I would say, you know, a 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:05.329 lot of the mainstream platforms 0:12:05.910 --> 0:12:08.340 perhaps didn't get as much legal advice as they have 0:12:08.340 --> 0:12:11.980 at this point in time. And so those processes that 0:12:11.990 --> 0:12:15.390 are set up weren't that straightforward. They weren't easy for some, 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:18.060 you know, for somebody who's not a lawyer to be 0:12:18.059 --> 0:12:21.620 able to navigate and do, they are getting easier. Um 0:12:21.630 --> 0:12:23.270 But you know, 0:12:23.790 --> 0:12:27.260 there's been lots of instances in which artists have tried 0:12:27.260 --> 0:12:30.459 to get their content taken down. They haven't had the 0:12:30.470 --> 0:12:33.260 result that they wanted. Some of them have gone out 0:12:33.260 --> 0:12:37.140 on social media vented about on social media. And unfortunately 0:12:37.140 --> 0:12:40.350 unfortunately that's when the platforms have acted unless you can 0:12:40.350 --> 0:12:43.109 afford or no you've got a friend as a copyright 0:12:43.110 --> 0:12:48.230 lawyer who can afford to fling out notices all day. 0:12:48.470 --> 0:12:51.910 And it's a lot of overhead with, even if even 0:12:51.910 --> 0:12:53.960 if you are wealthy, it's um it's it would be 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:57.069 pretty hard to keep up with. So yeah, that's um 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:01.740 I think the promise of of you know of eternal 0:13:01.740 --> 0:13:04.460 receipt or whatever. I think I really think it's it's 0:13:04.460 --> 0:13:07.140 kind of overblown. The main interest for me was whether 0:13:07.140 --> 0:13:10.699 seeing artists could kind of hitch their hitch there, 0:13:11.010 --> 0:13:15.040 their artwork to this trendy new bandwagon and make a 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:18.120 killing off it. And some definitely did like people is 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:22.559 the obvious use case who is now richer than God 0:13:24.910 --> 0:13:27.300 before N. F. T. S were a thing the digital 0:13:27.309 --> 0:13:31.090 artist known as people, Mike Winkelmann to his friends hadn't 0:13:31.090 --> 0:13:35.230 sold a print for anything over $100. However, since he 0:13:35.230 --> 0:13:37.309 turned some of his work into N. F. T. S, 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:41.920 he's made some serious money. How serious. Well one of 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:44.370 his N. F. T. S. A collage of his work 0:13:44.380 --> 0:13:50.860 sold at auction for almost $90 million yep, 90 million. 0:13:51.179 --> 0:13:54.500 So for that price, the buyer of people's work gets 0:13:54.500 --> 0:13:58.320 a digital file and the artist himself as josh Drummond 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:00.750 just said, becomes richer than God, 0:14:02.190 --> 0:14:04.189 But is the artwork any good 0:14:05.450 --> 0:14:08.780 or is this just a fundamental never ending question we 0:14:08.780 --> 0:14:11.600 seem to ask every time something new happens in the 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:12.400 art world, 0:14:15.990 --> 0:14:16.250 if 0:14:16.250 --> 0:14:19.530 you look at the famous FT works like the people 0:14:19.530 --> 0:14:22.720 work if you know about this, people was an artist 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.320 who he was well known but not super well known 0:14:25.710 --> 0:14:30.690 and he famously auctioned off this work that sold for 0:14:30.700 --> 0:14:33.810 millions and millions of dollars, huge amounts of money, massive 0:14:33.810 --> 0:14:36.150 amounts of money, but anyone can have a copy of 0:14:36.150 --> 0:14:38.220 that work, the same copy that the person who paid 0:14:38.220 --> 0:14:40.410 all that money has, there's no difference. 0:14:40.740 --> 0:14:44.610 So I have the full resolution image, is it great art? 0:14:44.620 --> 0:14:47.900 It doesn't, not, to me it's not, it's not worth 0:14:47.910 --> 0:14:49.720 anywhere near the amount of money that was paid for. 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.670 If you compare it to actual works that you think 0:14:52.670 --> 0:14:55.810 throughout history of sort of earned a reputation as being 0:14:55.820 --> 0:14:59.530 significant human works of art. This is not in that league, 0:14:59.530 --> 0:15:04.090 in my opinion. Um, so there is this, this tainted 0:15:04.100 --> 0:15:06.740 aspect that this has, that, I think it's sort of 0:15:06.740 --> 0:15:08.190 typical of the tech world 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:10.609 at the moment when as soon as something, there's a 0:15:10.610 --> 0:15:14.550 scheme to make money, this sort of human greed takes 0:15:14.550 --> 0:15:18.420 over and it just seems to be the vehicle that 0:15:18.420 --> 0:15:22.150 provided that money making mechanism and it was largely peripheral. 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.100 I suppose in the end, people will buy whatever art 0:15:25.100 --> 0:15:29.620 they like, whether it's good or rubbish or, you know, 0:15:29.620 --> 0:15:31.660 if you look at it as a talented artist and 0:15:31.670 --> 0:15:32.580 that's a piece of 0:15:32.750 --> 0:15:36.060 crap, but I might go, but it's lovely, like that's 0:15:36.060 --> 0:15:39.130 always existed, hasn't it? Like, you know, people, 0:15:39.490 --> 0:15:43.390 yeah, you know, I've thought about this quite a line, 0:15:43.390 --> 0:15:45.910 I wrote an essay recently about it and I think 0:15:45.910 --> 0:15:48.080 it's more complicated than that. I think 0:15:48.390 --> 0:15:51.140 a lot of it was to do with because there's 0:15:51.140 --> 0:15:55.500 money involved and eye watering amounts of money in some cases. 0:15:55.510 --> 0:15:58.410 I think people lost sight of the fact that it 0:15:58.410 --> 0:16:01.570 might just have artistic value for its own sake and 0:16:01.570 --> 0:16:03.760 looked at it more as a kind of investment thing. 0:16:03.770 --> 0:16:06.670 I think it's also the kind of fear of missing out. 0:16:06.670 --> 0:16:08.570 Like if all of your friends are saying I bought 0:16:08.570 --> 0:16:09.930 an N. F. T. I own this, 0:16:10.430 --> 0:16:13.570 Look at what I bought for $20,000. You think I've 0:16:13.570 --> 0:16:15.020 got to get into that too? I don't want to 0:16:15.020 --> 0:16:19.260 be left out. And so issues of aesthetics or taste 0:16:19.260 --> 0:16:22.500 or meaning or you know, any of those things that 0:16:22.500 --> 0:16:25.510 you might traditionally think of as being qualities that you 0:16:25.510 --> 0:16:29.020 might cause you to like not kind of thrown out 0:16:29.020 --> 0:16:31.210 the window. You know that's the power of ownership is 0:16:31.210 --> 0:16:32.110 really important 0:16:32.420 --> 0:16:35.080 because that's the only thing that really did. They didn't 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.280 change the art itself. I mean people were always making digital. 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:41.630 I they just had this weird way of saying you 0:16:41.630 --> 0:16:46.430 own this in some very nebulous, unleash Ghaly, verifiable sense. 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:50.860 That's really interesting. I wonder if it tapped into this 0:16:50.860 --> 0:16:52.540 part of the human psyche 0:16:53.060 --> 0:16:55.770 uh you know this very 0:16:56.980 --> 0:16:59.680 animalistic part of human psyche which is I want the 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:02.920 rare thing I want the thing that other people can't 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:07.189 have because it makes it valuable and so n. F. T. S. 0:17:07.190 --> 0:17:10.109 We're putting something that's very rare in the hands of 0:17:10.109 --> 0:17:12.179 every day. Most of us can't will never be in 0:17:12.180 --> 0:17:15.840 a position to buy the $5 million.01 of a kind 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.900 sports car or you know the Picasso. 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:22.920 But N. F. T. S. Were saying actually you you 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:24.780 can do this now you can have a thing no 0:17:24.780 --> 0:17:26.220 one else can have and it will give you the 0:17:26.220 --> 0:17:29.700 bragging rights and I wonder if there's a very human 0:17:29.710 --> 0:17:32.199 inclination to want those things. 0:17:32.210 --> 0:17:36.380 There's a whole lot of psychology around conspicuous consumption and 0:17:36.390 --> 0:17:39.070 people you know why why do people have an art 0:17:39.070 --> 0:17:41.130 collection that they want to show off to show that 0:17:41.130 --> 0:17:44.310 they have wealth power and status and so on. 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.220 Um And then there's sort of more probably more fundamental 0:17:47.230 --> 0:17:50.110 evolutionary biological reasons why you might want to do that 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:53.210 to just to just to sort of show the quality 0:17:53.210 --> 0:17:56.280 of genetically that you've that you've managed to achieve this 0:17:56.280 --> 0:18:00.000 ability to buy something that no one else can can have. 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:02.200 So I think there was a lot of it was 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:05.670 that a lot of it is also that you could 0:18:05.670 --> 0:18:07.520 own a Porsche if you traded in N. F. T. 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:08.930 S at the right time. So if you bought in 0:18:08.930 --> 0:18:12.140 low and sold hi you could basically take your crypto 0:18:12.140 --> 0:18:14.109 money that you paid for the N. F. T. Or 0:18:14.109 --> 0:18:15.820 that you received for it when you sold it on 0:18:15.820 --> 0:18:18.770 to someone else and turn that into real money and 0:18:18.770 --> 0:18:22.409 then actually be able to spend that real money on something. 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:28.950 It turns out there are also environmental impacts associated with 0:18:29.690 --> 0:18:32.140 Professor john McCormack explains 0:18:32.540 --> 0:18:37.460 when I first took off and cryptocurrencies became a mainstream thing, 0:18:37.500 --> 0:18:41.210 there was a lot of discussion about the environmental impact. 0:18:41.210 --> 0:18:45.630 So you were seeing for example large bit mining of 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:49.090 Bitcoin mining factories, I guess you could call them in 0:18:49.100 --> 0:18:52.670 china for example that were using coal fired power plants 0:18:52.670 --> 0:18:53.460 to power 0:18:53.990 --> 0:18:57.790 their their crypto mining that they were doing. 0:18:58.330 --> 0:19:01.300 And so there was a reaction against this. It gets 0:19:01.300 --> 0:19:05.730 more complicated technically because there's two different kinds of crypto 0:19:05.740 --> 0:19:08.760 mining mechanisms they're called and one of them is far 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:12.350 less environmentally damaging than the other. But the major platforms 0:19:12.350 --> 0:19:16.790 like ethereum Bitcoin still use the old method which is 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:19.690 environmentally quite, you know, I mean also 0:19:19.700 --> 0:19:23.390 you know there's lots of industries that are environmentally bad 0:19:23.390 --> 0:19:25.560 in terms of their power consumption but this just seems 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:28.639 to be an added thing that's purely largely for human 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:31.380 folly and the environmental impacts have been really high and 0:19:31.380 --> 0:19:34.440 now that when the market drops out it's also not 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:37.929 just the power consumption, it's all the e waste. So 0:19:37.930 --> 0:19:41.080 people were this big shortage of 0:19:41.380 --> 0:19:46.149 computer chips partially arose because of this rise in crypto 0:19:46.150 --> 0:19:50.859 and 50 people were buying hundreds of thousands or hundreds 0:19:50.859 --> 0:19:54.290 of thousands of Gpus or Cpus putting them in big 0:19:54.290 --> 0:19:58.480 racks running them with from coal fired power for example 0:19:58.859 --> 0:20:01.899 and that caused a chip shortage that caused a whole 0:20:01.900 --> 0:20:04.230 lot of people that might be using these for other 0:20:04.230 --> 0:20:06.430 perhaps you might argue more 0:20:07.450 --> 0:20:12.140 well ethically interesting or ethically valid reasons we're not able 0:20:12.140 --> 0:20:14.350 to access it because the crypto miners have brought them 0:20:14.350 --> 0:20:17.219 all up. So I think there is this huge issue 0:20:17.230 --> 0:20:19.790 with it. It still exists today. The theory have said 0:20:19.790 --> 0:20:22.560 they're going to change to a more environmentally friendly scheme 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:24.270 but they haven't yet. 0:20:24.780 --> 0:20:28.750 Um and you know so and I think there was 0:20:28.750 --> 0:20:32.340 a lot of pressure on artists to to think carefully 0:20:32.340 --> 0:20:35.710 about the environmental impact of selling their work on N. F. T. S. 0:20:35.710 --> 0:20:38.780 And so a lot of platforms arose that were supposedly green. 0:20:38.790 --> 0:20:41.250 I mean any N. F. C. Or any computer system 0:20:41.250 --> 0:20:43.380 uses power. You can't get around that. 0:20:43.850 --> 0:20:46.659 So there is an additional cost in terms of the 0:20:46.670 --> 0:20:50.050 power consumption and that's largely opaque to the user. Where 0:20:50.710 --> 0:20:53.650 does the crypto get its power from and who's doing 0:20:53.650 --> 0:20:56.550 the mining and because it's all distributed it's very difficult 0:20:56.550 --> 0:20:59.660 to chase all that up. So 0:20:59.660 --> 0:21:01.600 has the bubble already burst on? 0:21:03.310 --> 0:21:05.760 I think a lot of interest. And again I think 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:08.640 this is due to sort of hesitated at the end 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:10.510