1 00:00:00,700 --> 00:00:01,420 Speaker 1: imagine 2 00:00:01,940 --> 00:00:04,940 Speaker 1: living in a time where six men kill themselves every day, 3 00:00:05,050 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: and if we walk Basque gonna happen in 100 years. 4 00:00:07,290 --> 00:00:08,930 Speaker 1: It sounds pretty gross, but it's actually, 5 00:00:10,369 --> 00:00:13,190 Speaker 1: you know, originally fake news starts is a critique of 6 00:00:13,190 --> 00:00:16,390 Speaker 1: news that's considered to be inaccurate. It's become a term 7 00:00:16,390 --> 00:00:18,970 Speaker 1: that's used now to dismiss any news that you don't 8 00:00:18,970 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: like and Iran wanted to. Young Australians has a 9 00:00:23,579 --> 00:00:26,630 Speaker 1: provision. They are unwell generation that 10 00:00:27,430 --> 00:00:29,020 Speaker 1: people don't accept. Climate science, 11 00:00:29,570 --> 00:00:32,110 Speaker 1: if I think about how we're going to save the world, 12 00:00:32,140 --> 00:00:33,650 Speaker 1: are enables us to move 13 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: this time on the podcast. We are looking at renewable energy. 14 00:00:42,450 --> 00:00:46,279 Speaker 1: Energy remains front and center of political debate. It divides 15 00:00:46,290 --> 00:00:49,670 Speaker 1: those who want a faster transition away from fossil fuels 16 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,150 Speaker 1: and those who say the transition is not viable. Judah 17 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: Economic impacts Renewables have long been touted as the solution 18 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,310 Speaker 1: to reducing our reliance on fossil fuels. And in Australia, 19 00:01:01,310 --> 00:01:04,380 Speaker 1: renewable energy is growing at a per capita right 10 20 00:01:04,380 --> 00:01:07,540 Speaker 1: times faster than the world average, nearly three times faster 21 00:01:07,540 --> 00:01:09,740 Speaker 1: than the next buses. Country, Germany. 22 00:01:10,340 --> 00:01:12,750 Speaker 1: Sorry, why haven't renewables taken? I've yet 23 00:01:13,340 --> 00:01:16,030 Speaker 1: we'll find out from experts. What happens if we don't 24 00:01:16,030 --> 00:01:19,340 Speaker 1: make the switch to renewables and the potential difference if 25 00:01:19,340 --> 00:01:19,810 Speaker 1: we do. 26 00:01:24,740 --> 00:01:27,650 Speaker 1: What happens if we don't move to renewables and phase 27 00:01:27,650 --> 00:01:29,550 Speaker 1: out fossil fuels fast enough? 28 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,450 Speaker 1: Our experts fear the failure to keep global warming under 29 00:01:33,450 --> 00:01:38,310 Speaker 1: two degrees could lead Toa large populated areas becoming uninhabitable. 30 00:01:38,630 --> 00:01:41,220 Speaker 1: If we delay the move to renewables, we won't see 31 00:01:41,220 --> 00:01:44,790 Speaker 1: the behavior change we need in communities, says behavioral scientist 32 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:45,649 Speaker 1: Liam Smith. 33 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:51,430 Speaker 1: I'm 34 00:01:51,430 --> 00:01:54,530 Speaker 2: Liam Knit. I'm the director of behavior. What Australia High 35 00:01:54,530 --> 00:01:54,790 Speaker 2: Boots 36 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: by 37 00:01:56,990 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: 10 such 38 00:02:00,110 --> 00:02:00,650 Speaker 1: department 39 00:02:01,140 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 2: to change behavior. Individual. 40 00:02:07,890 --> 00:02:09,250 Speaker 1: Liam Smith. Welcome. 41 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:10,970 Speaker 2: Great. Great to be here. 42 00:02:11,940 --> 00:02:15,740 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about renewable systems. Have reliable. 43 00:02:15,750 --> 00:02:17,870 Speaker 1: Are they? Actually, Can we trust them? 44 00:02:17,889 --> 00:02:21,070 Speaker 2: We know that they're becoming more and more reliable, that 45 00:02:21,070 --> 00:02:24,390 Speaker 2: they're becoming a greater and greater part of greed, some 46 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:26,250 Speaker 2: technologies and more reliable than others. 47 00:02:27,220 --> 00:02:30,410 Speaker 2: Uh, and, um, some countries indeed have 48 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,230 Speaker 2: situations were almost 100%. Even more than 100% of the 49 00:02:34,510 --> 00:02:38,250 Speaker 2: national needs is supplied through renewables at times a long time. 50 00:02:38,940 --> 00:02:41,859 Speaker 2: So I think that question is gradually being answered by 51 00:02:41,860 --> 00:02:44,890 Speaker 2: people with probably greater technical expertise than I have, but 52 00:02:45,050 --> 00:02:47,950 Speaker 2: that certainly we're heading down that path to the point 53 00:02:47,950 --> 00:02:50,330 Speaker 2: with Amel, we're gonna become much more reliable than my 54 00:02:50,330 --> 00:02:51,100 Speaker 2: happen in the past. 55 00:02:51,540 --> 00:02:54,470 Speaker 1: And since they are pretty reliable at the moment, then 56 00:02:54,470 --> 00:02:55,609 Speaker 1: by the sound of it, like you said, there are 57 00:02:55,610 --> 00:02:58,419 Speaker 1: some countries that have, you know, use it for 100% 58 00:02:58,419 --> 00:03:01,329 Speaker 1: of it needs at least some of the time. Why? 59 00:03:01,570 --> 00:03:03,630 Speaker 1: Why Israeli? Don't we use it more? Why do you 60 00:03:03,630 --> 00:03:05,910 Speaker 1: think there is? Still reluctance 61 00:03:07,139 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: are a complicated question I would hit, hesitate to get 62 00:03:13,230 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 2: probably at a few strings. The anti was the little 63 00:03:16,810 --> 00:03:18,550 Speaker 2: few reasons the first 64 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,010 Speaker 2: I think you some incumbents in existing systems. So you know, 65 00:03:23,020 --> 00:03:26,250 Speaker 2: we build power stations they designed the last several decades, 66 00:03:26,950 --> 00:03:29,889 Speaker 2: but they are a large investments. It 67 00:03:30,500 --> 00:03:33,950 Speaker 2: certainly technical capability and skill that goes into running them. 68 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,270 Speaker 2: And therefore we kind of locked in, you know, the 69 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,150 Speaker 2: part dependent on the technology. 70 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,060 Speaker 2: Ah, there's probably some hesitancy to the uptake of renewables 71 00:03:43,070 --> 00:03:46,550 Speaker 2: because of stories around the reliability, 72 00:03:47,430 --> 00:03:50,390 Speaker 2: I guess, increasing in Australia, we're getting more and more 73 00:03:50,390 --> 00:03:53,050 Speaker 2: used to solder and salaries. One of those renewables, that is, 74 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,170 Speaker 2: you know, quite variable, depending on the Man of Sun 75 00:03:57,170 --> 00:03:57,500 Speaker 2: and 76 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,369 Speaker 2: and then the weather and indeed where you are in Australia. 77 00:04:01,580 --> 00:04:04,050 Speaker 2: And so I think probably a combination of those two 78 00:04:04,050 --> 00:04:07,820 Speaker 2: things at the macro level. Other drivers. But we are 79 00:04:07,830 --> 00:04:12,260 Speaker 2: seeing people ships. So, um you know, while they historically 80 00:04:12,270 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 2: have been key drivers to resistance, I think these things 81 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:15,450 Speaker 2: are changing. 82 00:04:16,890 --> 00:04:19,260 Speaker 1: And yet eso you say these changing and look, there 83 00:04:19,260 --> 00:04:21,860 Speaker 1: are some legitimate questions to be asked. But there are 84 00:04:21,860 --> 00:04:22,779 Speaker 1: countries that are 85 00:04:23,740 --> 00:04:27,890 Speaker 1: far further down the road than we are. If are 86 00:04:27,890 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: we dragging our feet due to renewable? Just needs better PR. 87 00:04:32,010 --> 00:04:33,050 Speaker 1: What's the issue? 88 00:04:35,990 --> 00:04:41,790 Speaker 2: Probably Ah, you know, I think renewable certainly could benefit 89 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: from 90 00:04:42,779 --> 00:04:44,750 Speaker 2: better PR on a bit of reputation. 91 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:50,450 Speaker 2: Ah, amongst Australians. Um, there are probably some other reasons 92 00:04:51,370 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 2: beyond that. I mean, I think when you say other, 93 00:04:53,370 --> 00:04:56,029 Speaker 2: some countries have embraced a much more whole only that's 94 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:57,150 Speaker 2: probably a combination of 95 00:04:57,740 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: the policy. But my also reason. Very pragmatic reasons. Your connection. 96 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,239 Speaker 2: Too much large greed or indeed, much greater proportion. Nuclear 97 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:08,410 Speaker 2: energy supply systems, which are not traditionally a large part 98 00:05:08,410 --> 00:05:09,450 Speaker 2: of the mix in Australia. 99 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,409 Speaker 2: Um, so yeah, 100 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,460 Speaker 2: are we dragging it? Think about it. It's a difficult 101 00:05:15,460 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: question to answer. I mean, I know that some authors 102 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:19,730 Speaker 2: have looked at Australia and say, Well, look at all 103 00:05:19,730 --> 00:05:23,050 Speaker 2: that space and all that fun. Ah, yeah, You know, 104 00:05:23,050 --> 00:05:26,070 Speaker 2: you could be a an export country to the world, 105 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,050 Speaker 2: and we certainly aren't really, 106 00:05:28,900 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 2: so there's certainly a possibility. But I get back to 107 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,460 Speaker 2: the early questioning and incumbency and and also some level 108 00:05:35,460 --> 00:05:36,050 Speaker 2: of resistance. 109 00:05:44,950 --> 00:05:45,549 Speaker 1: Do you think 110 00:05:46,210 --> 00:05:51,529 Speaker 1: Australia does move towards more renewable and gas other technologies? 111 00:05:51,660 --> 00:05:52,980 Speaker 1: What does that mean for the future? 112 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,529 Speaker 2: So I guess I'm a normal behavior scientist and well beyond. 113 00:05:59,529 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 2: I guess the reason I'm talking to you is because 114 00:06:01,170 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 2: lives will be speaking way dealing, not applied contexts and 115 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,690 Speaker 2: energy being one of those. So I can think about 116 00:06:07,690 --> 00:06:10,370 Speaker 2: what does the future look like? Behavioral. Easy in a 117 00:06:10,370 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 2: world where we have a much greater proportion of renewables, 118 00:06:13,130 --> 00:06:16,070 Speaker 2: that that may not have the base load deploy that 119 00:06:16,100 --> 00:06:16,850 Speaker 2: I called us. 120 00:06:17,940 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 2: And so I do think the future. And you know, 121 00:06:21,010 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 2: there are certainly many options in the future and hydro 122 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,489 Speaker 2: hard regions that being one that got the attention of 123 00:06:26,500 --> 00:06:28,349 Speaker 2: government into the new future. 124 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,790 Speaker 2: Um, you know, there are ways in which the future 125 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 2: may lead to changes in how we act and how 126 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,550 Speaker 2: we gauge of the system. I guess at one level, 127 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,470 Speaker 2: when energy bring, if we could have a better connected 128 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 2: greed in that that allows exchange of energy between greed, 129 00:06:43,330 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 2: I think that that's really gonna be helpful in distributing 130 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,450 Speaker 2: the risk you'll or the supply across brought a network. 131 00:06:51,010 --> 00:06:53,180 Speaker 2: But that also means that people might need Teoh 132 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 2: behave differently at times. And I think about the Monash 133 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,850 Speaker 2: work that we're doing in our local in the deer 134 00:06:59,850 --> 00:07:03,450 Speaker 2: I work we're doing in particular hitting towards um, 135 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:05,510 Speaker 2: Well, it's Hockett of Nick, dear I 136 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,250 Speaker 2: And, uh, that's about the order of the micro level 137 00:07:09,260 --> 00:07:12,410 Speaker 2: that is a monitor market. But then authorities and Monitor Network, 138 00:07:12,410 --> 00:07:13,850 Speaker 2: which where we hope to 139 00:07:14,540 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: I just be able to manipulate our power use. At times, 140 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,710 Speaker 2: I didn't uses all power, um, so that we can 141 00:07:21,710 --> 00:07:24,390 Speaker 2: feeding or out of a broad agreed as needed. And 142 00:07:24,390 --> 00:07:26,900 Speaker 2: I think that that's an area where things are really 143 00:07:26,900 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 2: gonna change so I can see in the future times 144 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:32,940 Speaker 2: when we might need to, for example, turn the heating 145 00:07:32,940 --> 00:07:35,730 Speaker 2: up because we can't keep the playschool 146 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,380 Speaker 2: and when I mean heading out on me, not from 147 00:07:38,630 --> 00:07:42,679 Speaker 2: 25 to 30 but more 25 to 26 27 148 00:07:42,730 --> 00:07:43,070 Speaker 1: or 149 00:07:43,070 --> 00:07:45,350 Speaker 2: something like that just to create a little bit of 150 00:07:45,940 --> 00:07:48,580 Speaker 2: ability in a system when we're drawing a lot from 151 00:07:48,580 --> 00:07:51,030 Speaker 2: it and equally if were producing a lot of power. However, 152 00:07:51,030 --> 00:07:53,750 Speaker 2: that looks and that this is admonishing celebrity, 153 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 2: it's well, it's all around battery and wind in that mix, 154 00:07:57,770 --> 00:08:01,070 Speaker 2: but certainly when we're producing more powers that we can 155 00:08:01,210 --> 00:08:02,460 Speaker 2: export it. And we might 156 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,780 Speaker 2: either say it puts, um, storage into some energy into 157 00:08:06,780 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 2: battery storage for the time being. Or we can export 158 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,150 Speaker 2: its whether greed Jamaican has a change in their behaviour. 159 00:08:12,150 --> 00:08:14,850 Speaker 2: In terms of, you know, use your energy. Now recharge 160 00:08:14,850 --> 00:08:16,890 Speaker 2: your batteries. Now with that in a car or something 161 00:08:16,890 --> 00:08:17,210 Speaker 2: else 162 00:08:18,230 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 2: or in the heart. Home Batteries is becoming pretty popular 163 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 2: at the moment as well that these are things that 164 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,210 Speaker 2: I can see behavior really changing in the future. So 165 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 2: will be, hopefully much more connected. We'll see particularly acid 166 00:08:31,310 --> 00:08:32,350 Speaker 2: like home batteries, 167 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,850 Speaker 2: things like the taste of two or indeed, 168 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,380 Speaker 2: a car batteries will become a resource that is drawn 169 00:08:39,380 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: down and feeding back into the grid 170 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,230 Speaker 2: as needed quite regularly. So they will provide that security 171 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:46,350 Speaker 2: and that reliability. 172 00:08:47,050 --> 00:08:49,579 Speaker 2: So that means you and I are doing a few 173 00:08:49,580 --> 00:08:50,850 Speaker 2: things differently. Probably, 174 00:08:51,630 --> 00:08:55,429 Speaker 2: uh, when this energy, we might use it for storage 175 00:08:55,590 --> 00:08:59,510 Speaker 2: and when when it's not their NATO, except a few 176 00:08:59,510 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 2: things that are different as well. 177 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: You told us what could happen if you know how 178 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: the future could Look, if we make some changes, what 179 00:09:06,330 --> 00:09:08,150 Speaker 1: could have you to look like if we don't? 180 00:09:09,340 --> 00:09:11,809 Speaker 1: If we don't start adopting more renewables? 181 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess this this this kind of like clinic 182 00:09:15,610 --> 00:09:18,980 Speaker 2: times argument, Really? I mean, that this is the one 183 00:09:18,980 --> 00:09:20,050 Speaker 2: argument is, Well, 184 00:09:21,140 --> 00:09:24,849 Speaker 2: um, you know, the Australians, a contributor were not a 185 00:09:24,900 --> 00:09:27,770 Speaker 2: huge contributor, but capital were very large contributor 186 00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 2: to, ah, carbon emissions, etcetera, And that lady global change 187 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:32,479 Speaker 2: and causing 188 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,780 Speaker 2: very least the 1.5 or two degree changing the temperature. 189 00:09:35,780 --> 00:09:36,950 Speaker 2: We know what that main 190 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:39,890 Speaker 2: that I mean, we continue contribute to that which is 191 00:09:39,900 --> 00:09:42,670 Speaker 2: not great. I guess there's a reputational images Well, in 192 00:09:42,670 --> 00:09:46,250 Speaker 2: that you know, monitor. Very Australia looks very much like 193 00:09:46,250 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 2: a lag. 194 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:48,090 Speaker 2: Um, it is 195 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,260 Speaker 2: behind the up, uh, behind the eight ball. Like it 196 00:09:52,260 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: in terms of the uptake of new smart grids and 197 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,189 Speaker 2: technology that allow exchange of energy in the way we 198 00:09:58,190 --> 00:10:02,220 Speaker 2: have been talking about and very much others get ahead. Both, 199 00:10:02,890 --> 00:10:06,810 Speaker 2: I guess it through the technology, but then equally through 200 00:10:07,020 --> 00:10:09,939 Speaker 2: their economies, probably start to possible much more as well. 201 00:10:11,140 --> 00:10:11,890 Speaker 2: So I think, 202 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,220 Speaker 2: yeah, I got a particularly. I think it's the reputation 203 00:10:15,220 --> 00:10:18,110 Speaker 2: of risk, I think is wearing the short term, but 204 00:10:18,110 --> 00:10:21,050 Speaker 2: then longer terms that made it the climate, helping others 205 00:10:21,090 --> 00:10:21,410 Speaker 2: as well. 206 00:10:34,540 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: Do you think there any areas more than others, where 207 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:43,390 Speaker 1: if we don't make change, environmentally order, renewable sense things 208 00:10:43,390 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: could be worse than others? Like is that is the 209 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:47,210 Speaker 1: biggest 210 00:10:47,780 --> 00:10:50,580 Speaker 1: area for renewable focus? For example, say 211 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:52,050 Speaker 1: stopping cold 212 00:10:53,100 --> 00:10:55,250 Speaker 1: as opposed to anything else. We should just focus on that, 213 00:10:55,260 --> 00:10:59,359 Speaker 1: because if we don't ah, the part that we're going 214 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,850 Speaker 1: down is just too negative, 215 00:11:04,740 --> 00:11:08,969 Speaker 2: not quite shocking. And so that I think, stopping Cole 216 00:11:09,380 --> 00:11:10,050 Speaker 2: he's actually 217 00:11:10,790 --> 00:11:14,410 Speaker 2: really important. I can't speak to the impact that has 218 00:11:14,410 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 2: or doesn't have in terms of 219 00:11:16,940 --> 00:11:20,330 Speaker 2: climate on, and there are certainly common scientists billions that 220 00:11:20,340 --> 00:11:23,390 Speaker 2: better than I can. But I do think the shutting 221 00:11:23,390 --> 00:11:28,869 Speaker 2: of coal station sends really important messages community to people 222 00:11:28,870 --> 00:11:29,650 Speaker 2: about what matters. 223 00:11:30,490 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 2: And so when you know when we see a power 224 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,540 Speaker 2: station closed down on D. C companies saying right with 225 00:11:36,580 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 2: divesting out of coal, I think that that creates the 226 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:41,650 Speaker 2: momentum 227 00:11:42,900 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 2: in many ways with which had great moment and not not, 228 00:11:46,610 --> 00:11:48,469 Speaker 2: not necessarily for the right reasons. On the back of 229 00:11:48,470 --> 00:11:50,910 Speaker 2: the bushfires at the moment of the other factors are 230 00:11:50,910 --> 00:11:53,270 Speaker 2: completely changing that, unfortunately, 231 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,450 Speaker 2: many raisins with covered. But 232 00:11:57,110 --> 00:11:58,449 Speaker 2: but certainly, uh, 233 00:11:59,200 --> 00:11:59,510 Speaker 2: you know, 234 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,380 Speaker 2: if covert hadn't happened, it's almost certain that there would 235 00:12:04,380 --> 00:12:05,050 Speaker 2: be a really 236 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,740 Speaker 2: good policy we know now screening, giving an action on 237 00:12:08,740 --> 00:12:09,550 Speaker 2: climate change. 238 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,069 Speaker 2: And, um so what do you think? You know, getting 239 00:12:13,070 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 2: out of coal 240 00:12:14,530 --> 00:12:16,150 Speaker 2: and having policies that 241 00:12:16,740 --> 00:12:20,020 Speaker 2: sort of take it down. That part, actually, really powerful 242 00:12:20,020 --> 00:12:22,010 Speaker 2: signals to community decided matters. 243 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,979 Speaker 2: And, you know, I don't support the idea of questions. 244 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:25,850 Speaker 2: Dan Cole, 245 00:12:26,780 --> 00:12:29,770 Speaker 2: as the Khyber researches were often interesting. Well, does that 246 00:12:29,950 --> 00:12:32,850 Speaker 2: then latest to do something else way more likely, the act. 247 00:12:33,290 --> 00:12:36,250 Speaker 2: Do something that we likely the dog. You know, after graduation, 248 00:12:36,940 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 2: if you leave the superannuation company, let us alone exchange 249 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,350 Speaker 2: with Boston. Brand new. I should company the want. Darvish 250 00:12:42,350 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 2: that a couple? Um you know, but but that Will 251 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 2: it lead me to doom or things that are interrogated 252 00:12:48,890 --> 00:12:50,729 Speaker 2: that are in line with the first thing I did? 253 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,270 Speaker 2: And we call these behavioral spillover, right? So if I 254 00:12:53,270 --> 00:12:55,140 Speaker 2: do one thing, I would like to do another another, 255 00:12:55,140 --> 00:12:59,849 Speaker 2: another several by boat or advocate, or even just support. 256 00:13:00,340 --> 00:13:01,950 Speaker 2: I'm the idea of causing coal 257 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,420 Speaker 2: more than likely to divest a call. And my men 258 00:13:05,420 --> 00:13:07,730 Speaker 2: like leader, you know, switch off the light of my 259 00:13:07,730 --> 00:13:10,830 Speaker 2: workplace in my then likely that by an electric vehicle, etcetera. 260 00:13:11,809 --> 00:13:15,309 Speaker 2: This is question. And what we do know seems Teoh 261 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,150 Speaker 2: mediate those relationships. How much? 262 00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:22,290 Speaker 2: If I see myself with that kind of person, I'm 263 00:13:22,290 --> 00:13:26,730 Speaker 2: more likely did more things that consistent. And so it's 264 00:13:27,050 --> 00:13:29,220 Speaker 2: not the best answer to your question in terms of, 265 00:13:29,340 --> 00:13:32,300 Speaker 2: you know, where do we concentrate? But I do think 266 00:13:32,309 --> 00:13:35,650 Speaker 2: potentially if we had the, um 267 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 2: it's kind of philosophy that we want to take people 268 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 2: on journeys in carbon 269 00:13:40,929 --> 00:13:45,650 Speaker 2: and don't just involved reporting reduction of coal, but hope 270 00:13:45,740 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 2: draft of other things that, you know over a short 271 00:13:48,770 --> 00:13:51,699 Speaker 2: space of time that will be otherwise Australia becomes called. 272 00:13:53,470 --> 00:13:56,010 Speaker 1: You mentioned that if it were not for covered, we 273 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,820 Speaker 1: might have a great window to talk about renewables here. 274 00:13:59,059 --> 00:14:00,550 Speaker 1: Do you think we're gonna lose that window? 275 00:14:01,340 --> 00:14:02,329 Speaker 2: I think we've already looked. 276 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:04,250 Speaker 1: And what will be the impact of that? 277 00:14:05,540 --> 00:14:06,900 Speaker 2: Well, so I think in 278 00:14:07,460 --> 00:14:09,530 Speaker 2: policy, there are windows that happens 279 00:14:10,070 --> 00:14:14,110 Speaker 2: for a whole raft of reasons. GFT credibly knows. Um, 280 00:14:14,350 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 2: you know, the government to drive, but a windows and 281 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:18,349 Speaker 2: we had good 282 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,550 Speaker 2: movement in planet in peril, environment and some other spaces 283 00:14:25,010 --> 00:14:27,090 Speaker 2: over the past to the four fucking years. 284 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:29,350 Speaker 2: Um, but But when? 285 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,460 Speaker 2: But those windows closed, they don't stay open for a 286 00:14:32,460 --> 00:14:33,550 Speaker 2: long period of time. 287 00:14:34,420 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 2: They can be driven. I think, by a whole bunch 288 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 2: of things that a natural disaster, as the Bushrod have done, 289 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,230 Speaker 2: is one a politician, or later they're putting a stake 290 00:14:43,230 --> 00:14:45,350 Speaker 2: in the ground, saying this matter, two million, I'm really 291 00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:47,010 Speaker 2: gonna do something about it, or it can come out 292 00:14:47,010 --> 00:14:47,550 Speaker 2: of community. 293 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,990 Speaker 2: But when they get into the public discourse and the zeitgeist, 294 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:52,210 Speaker 2: then we have a very 295 00:14:52,780 --> 00:14:55,220 Speaker 2: typically a fairly placing. My aren't last year. 296 00:14:56,780 --> 00:15:00,470 Speaker 2: There are the Windows, but significant policy times to occur. 297 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:05,100 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I think we had that window in January. Onda 298 00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:06,190 Speaker 2: close pretty quickly. 299 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,540 Speaker 2: It's really, really quite districting, actually. And a them and 300 00:15:11,540 --> 00:15:14,460 Speaker 2: justice wake up any meetings from that push bar recovery 301 00:15:14,460 --> 00:15:17,230 Speaker 2: intensive biodiversity starting in the late last week. 302 00:15:17,830 --> 00:15:21,900 Speaker 2: And it's really distracting because they know that intimately. 303 00:15:23,510 --> 00:15:24,550 Speaker 2: And they really love that 304 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,100 Speaker 1: very strange and troubling times we're in at the moment. 305 00:15:30,410 --> 00:15:33,700 Speaker 1: Liam Sweet. Thank you so much for your time. 306 00:15:33,710 --> 00:15:38,870 Speaker 2: You're welcome. 307 00:15:39,700 --> 00:15:44,210 Speaker 1: Paul Raschke is an economist specializing in insurance industry is 308 00:15:44,220 --> 00:15:47,410 Speaker 1: already planning for situations in those parts of the world 309 00:15:47,410 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: that might become unlivable due to global temperature rises, increasing 310 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: natural disasters and catastrophic weather events without a move to 311 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,590 Speaker 1: renewable Sign to say we can't limit the temperature increase 312 00:15:59,590 --> 00:16:02,479 Speaker 1: to two degrees, it needs to bay. Paul has a 313 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: window into what that world looks like if we don't 314 00:16:05,330 --> 00:16:06,580 Speaker 1: hate the science. 315 00:16:08,630 --> 00:16:11,450 Speaker 2: Hi, my name is Paul Raschke. I'm economy on this 316 00:16:11,450 --> 00:16:14,450 Speaker 2: university and my research 317 00:16:14,970 --> 00:16:19,670 Speaker 2: interested in the peace of environmental, economic, political, economy and insurance, 318 00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:20,350 Speaker 2: economic 319 00:16:20,950 --> 00:16:23,430 Speaker 2: and, um, in general, I broke with 320 00:16:24,260 --> 00:16:24,710 Speaker 2: large 321 00:16:25,610 --> 00:16:30,150 Speaker 2: data that on topics related to environment, climate change in 322 00:16:30,150 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 2: the Children. 323 00:16:32,140 --> 00:16:35,110 Speaker 1: Paul Raschke from economics. Thanks for joining me. 324 00:16:36,140 --> 00:16:36,650 Speaker 2: Thank you. 325 00:16:37,940 --> 00:16:41,610 Speaker 1: We think a lot about, uh, the disasters of climate 326 00:16:41,610 --> 00:16:45,530 Speaker 1: change and all their environmental impacts and those terrible things. 327 00:16:45,540 --> 00:16:49,970 Speaker 1: What could the if things continue unabated 328 00:16:50,540 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: with with climate change, what could be the financial or 329 00:16:54,490 --> 00:16:58,210 Speaker 1: economic or or insurance outcomes of that? Those things maybe 330 00:16:58,210 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: we haven't really thought about. 331 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:01,910 Speaker 2: So 332 00:17:02,740 --> 00:17:06,580 Speaker 2: on the 100 insurance in the three, um, had put 333 00:17:06,590 --> 00:17:09,129 Speaker 2: out the number of estimates. On the one hand they 334 00:17:09,130 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 2: put out, 335 00:17:10,940 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 2: I've estimates about the potential increase in the frequency and 336 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,510 Speaker 2: intensity off climate related natural disasters. 337 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:23,450 Speaker 2: So there's a common understanding that these events might increase 338 00:17:24,090 --> 00:17:25,950 Speaker 2: in some areas of the world. 339 00:17:26,540 --> 00:17:31,420 Speaker 2: So that means, um if these scenarios are correct, we 340 00:17:31,570 --> 00:17:34,820 Speaker 2: were going to see more hurricanes, more flooding more. He 341 00:17:34,820 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 2: plays in the future, um, income area 342 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,970 Speaker 2: and not trend that we are actually seeing. That, you know, 343 00:17:43,130 --> 00:17:47,370 Speaker 2: not necessarily related to climate change is that people are 344 00:17:47,369 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 2: more and more moving to more exposed area. 345 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:55,419 Speaker 2: So think about Kotal area. Um just looking around Australia. 346 00:17:55,420 --> 00:17:58,820 Speaker 2: I think about how the Gold Coast looked like 15 347 00:17:58,820 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 2: years ago versus now. Think about Florida. 348 00:18:02,140 --> 00:18:06,550 Speaker 2: Um and so we have this demographic trends, 349 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 2: our settlement trend 350 00:18:08,740 --> 00:18:12,950 Speaker 2: in addition that might, you know, even increase the future 351 00:18:12,950 --> 00:18:19,050 Speaker 2: losses for society in general. But also the future damages that, um, 352 00:18:19,590 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 2: the insurance companies might have to cover. 353 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:26,990 Speaker 1: And so are insurance companies already factoring that in. Are 354 00:18:26,990 --> 00:18:30,060 Speaker 1: they already starting to prepare for maybe having to pay 355 00:18:30,060 --> 00:18:34,270 Speaker 1: out form or cyclones more heatwaves? Or is this at 356 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 1: this stage still 357 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: a consideration? 358 00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:42,450 Speaker 2: So what insurance companies do around the world, they have 359 00:18:42,460 --> 00:18:45,500 Speaker 2: a number of different things. First, I mean that the 360 00:18:45,500 --> 00:18:49,129 Speaker 2: most extreme reactions that simply say it's not insurable. So 361 00:18:49,130 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 2: there can be properties that are in 362 00:18:52,140 --> 00:18:56,179 Speaker 2: in our example flood risk zone, that insurance companies already 363 00:18:56,180 --> 00:18:58,820 Speaker 2: are saying, Look, we no longer ensuring you. 364 00:18:59,340 --> 00:19:03,020 Speaker 2: Some insurance companies are in some countries. We see that 365 00:19:03,020 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 2: insurance companies, you know, refused to ensure a certain properties. 366 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 2: Um, that's the most extreme form, the other possibilities that 367 00:19:12,890 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 2: they simply increase the premium to reflect the wrist, 368 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,450 Speaker 2: and that then makes it for 369 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,169 Speaker 2: people unaffordable to live there because they're the premiums are 370 00:19:24,170 --> 00:19:25,430 Speaker 2: so high, and 371 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,810 Speaker 2: normally the premium to reflect there is. I mean, it's 372 00:19:28,820 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 2: just making even exposed areas making living grab it becomes 373 00:19:34,410 --> 00:19:35,550 Speaker 2: extremely expensive. 374 00:19:36,140 --> 00:19:40,340 Speaker 2: On. The other thing is that in some on countries, 375 00:19:40,350 --> 00:19:44,950 Speaker 2: for example, Switzerland, the insurance companies are statement all police, 376 00:19:45,540 --> 00:19:46,380 Speaker 2: so they have 377 00:19:47,470 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 2: fuel more right 378 00:19:49,980 --> 00:19:52,659 Speaker 2: to intervene in how 379 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:54,350 Speaker 2: buildings appeal. 380 00:19:55,140 --> 00:19:59,420 Speaker 2: Um, and they can say, OK, we have, um, this 381 00:19:59,420 --> 00:20:03,820 Speaker 2: combination of not just financial insurance often interest trench, but 382 00:20:03,820 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 2: also asking people to in the Mormon into self protection. 383 00:20:07,550 --> 00:20:09,730 Speaker 2: And then they can ask you to say, 384 00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:13,340 Speaker 2: You know, put your house on until spills, for example, 385 00:20:13,350 --> 00:20:14,990 Speaker 2: or put in 386 00:20:15,540 --> 00:20:18,990 Speaker 2: in your basement when those they need Toby Flood proof. Otherwise, 387 00:20:18,990 --> 00:20:21,550 Speaker 2: you don't get that a precondition for insurance 388 00:20:22,070 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 2: In that sense, state defector that in 389 00:20:24,740 --> 00:20:28,430 Speaker 2: another way, where let's say the industry of the whole 390 00:20:28,500 --> 00:20:33,110 Speaker 2: is approaching the climate change, Um, 391 00:20:34,340 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 2: scenarios is on the more broader let's say information base, 392 00:20:39,619 --> 00:20:44,940 Speaker 2: um, campaign, where they produce research and, you know, try 393 00:20:44,940 --> 00:20:48,550 Speaker 2: to inform policy makers around the world about the increasing risk. 394 00:21:00,340 --> 00:21:05,430 Speaker 1: Do you think we'll start to see Mawr places or areas? 395 00:21:05,500 --> 00:21:09,330 Speaker 1: People who are in places that are just uninsurable. We 396 00:21:09,330 --> 00:21:11,830 Speaker 1: might have some now pat saying, Australian, maybe areas that 397 00:21:11,830 --> 00:21:15,540 Speaker 1: are really prone to bushfires, for example, or coastal areas 398 00:21:15,540 --> 00:21:18,660 Speaker 1: that look like any minute now that could be swept away. 399 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: Adds, climate change does progress. And we do see more 400 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:27,010 Speaker 1: things like heatwaves, more cyclones, that air that could impact 401 00:21:27,060 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: far greater people. Will we start to see more areas 402 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,859 Speaker 1: that are either just uninsurable or the premiums are so 403 00:21:33,859 --> 00:21:36,550 Speaker 1: high that fewer and fewer people can afford to live there? 404 00:21:38,030 --> 00:21:40,780 Speaker 2: That could be the case that some areas will simply 405 00:21:40,780 --> 00:21:45,210 Speaker 2: be uninsurable in the sense that you know, if the government, 406 00:21:45,220 --> 00:21:48,260 Speaker 2: for example, doesn't intervene and maybe Ted up 407 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:49,450 Speaker 2: some 408 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:55,250 Speaker 2: cooperation with a some form of collaboration with insurance companies 409 00:21:55,260 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 2: are we provide some form of insurance, then the private 410 00:21:58,330 --> 00:22:00,430 Speaker 2: tech team a template. They know we're not going to 411 00:22:00,430 --> 00:22:04,350 Speaker 2: ensure there or we will provide insurance, but it can't 412 00:22:04,940 --> 00:22:05,619 Speaker 2: as a joke. 413 00:22:06,220 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 2: You know, we're not going to pay out the full um, damage, 414 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,630 Speaker 2: but at the image that you know you get, you 415 00:22:14,630 --> 00:22:18,100 Speaker 2: can buy an insurance and the claim you can make 416 00:22:18,109 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 2: it limited. Let's say $20,000. You see that some European 417 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 2: companies have that there 418 00:22:24,700 --> 00:22:26,659 Speaker 2: Countries that you have, um, 419 00:22:27,340 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 2: with your normal by insurance for your household, you can 420 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,450 Speaker 2: top up and getting a natural disaster peck touch that 421 00:22:33,530 --> 00:22:38,050 Speaker 2: insures you against the whole set of natural disasters. But 422 00:22:38,740 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 2: the states in the insurance policy that you know if 423 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,709 Speaker 2: something happens, we will only pay you x amount of dollars. 424 00:22:47,170 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 2: Not 425 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,389 Speaker 1: only does it sound really complicated, it sounds like a 426 00:22:49,390 --> 00:22:51,670 Speaker 1: complicated problem. We're gonna have to be dealing with more 427 00:22:51,670 --> 00:22:54,270 Speaker 1: and more in the future as climate change progresses. Paul, 428 00:22:54,270 --> 00:22:56,810 Speaker 1: that was really useful. Thank you so much for taking 429 00:22:56,810 --> 00:22:58,170 Speaker 1: the time. I really appreciate it. 430 00:22:58,560 --> 00:22:59,820 Speaker 2: No, that time has a 431 00:23:00,390 --> 00:23:04,450 Speaker 2: way. 432 00:23:04,830 --> 00:23:07,860 Speaker 1: Definitely some food for thought there about how much we 433 00:23:07,859 --> 00:23:11,530 Speaker 1: need to manage this transition. Next episode will find out 434 00:23:11,540 --> 00:23:15,020 Speaker 1: just what is possible in the world of renewables and 435 00:23:15,020 --> 00:23:17,340 Speaker 1: what needs to change so we can get there faster. 436 00:23:18,140 --> 00:23:21,100 Speaker 1: Thanks to our guest today, Liam Smith and Paul Raschke. 437 00:23:21,450 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode. More information on what we 438 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: discussed today can be found in the show notes