1
00:00:00,370 --> 00:00:02,810
Speaker 1: Hey Friends, Welcome back to another episode of the evolving

2
00:00:02,810 --> 00:00:07,210
Speaker 1: man podcast. Thank you again for tuning in As always.

3
00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,430
Speaker 1: It's been a while, it's been a while Friends. It's

4
00:00:10,430 --> 00:00:12,350
Speaker 1: good to be back on the microphone to be sharing

5
00:00:12,350 --> 00:00:16,430
Speaker 1: another episode with you. This episode is with Connor Beaton,

6
00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,419
Speaker 1: founder of Man talks a friend of mine and he

7
00:00:20,420 --> 00:00:23,410
Speaker 1: comes on the show to talk about the subject matter

8
00:00:23,410 --> 00:00:25,500
Speaker 1: of his new book that's coming out the end of

9
00:00:25,500 --> 00:00:30,630
Speaker 1: this month, january 2023 Men's work, a practical guide to

10
00:00:30,630 --> 00:00:35,180
Speaker 1: face your darkness and self sabotage and find your freedom,

11
00:00:35,470 --> 00:00:38,280
Speaker 1: find freedom just to be clear, it doesn't say your

12
00:00:38,290 --> 00:00:43,650
Speaker 1: uh this is a perfect book for this podcast. I

13
00:00:43,650 --> 00:00:46,210
Speaker 1: talk about men's work a lot, I'm all about it

14
00:00:46,220 --> 00:00:47,860
Speaker 1: and I think there's a lot of men that listen

15
00:00:47,860 --> 00:00:52,040
Speaker 1: to this show um to hear about what's happening in

16
00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:53,310
Speaker 1: men's work and really

17
00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,300
Speaker 1: to still and figure out what men's work is. We

18
00:00:57,300 --> 00:01:00,400
Speaker 1: all have our own answer to that, what is men's

19
00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,880
Speaker 1: work to do on themselves and in the world. So

20
00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,020
Speaker 1: we have a really great conversation that I'm excited to

21
00:01:06,020 --> 00:01:08,830
Speaker 1: share with you folks first, I just want to give

22
00:01:08,830 --> 00:01:11,240
Speaker 1: you a little update. It's been a while since I

23
00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:16,419
Speaker 1: recorded an episode, that's because uh my wife got pregnant

24
00:01:16,430 --> 00:01:18,380
Speaker 1: and we had a baby girl

25
00:01:19,100 --> 00:01:23,039
Speaker 1: and we've spent the last three months in a cocoon

26
00:01:23,050 --> 00:01:27,940
Speaker 1: not working very much and just being with this little

27
00:01:27,950 --> 00:01:32,690
Speaker 1: baby in the, what's called the fourth trimester and uh man,

28
00:01:32,690 --> 00:01:35,009
Speaker 1: it's been a wild ride. It's been a lot of fun,

29
00:01:35,020 --> 00:01:40,170
Speaker 1: It's been challenging at times and you know, we're being

30
00:01:40,170 --> 00:01:44,199
Speaker 1: tested and uh I got nothing to complain about, it's

31
00:01:44,209 --> 00:01:45,319
Speaker 1: really

32
00:01:45,540 --> 00:01:49,900
Speaker 1: exciting journey and um I remember sitting with my wife

33
00:01:49,900 --> 00:01:52,870
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, feeling like in a way

34
00:01:52,870 --> 00:01:54,330
Speaker 1: like feeling like we're on top of the world and

35
00:01:54,330 --> 00:01:56,510
Speaker 1: then saying like, okay, well what's next

36
00:01:57,430 --> 00:02:02,240
Speaker 1: and uh this is it, so that's been fun and

37
00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:06,150
Speaker 1: so you can expect some content related to fatherhood in

38
00:02:06,150 --> 00:02:09,530
Speaker 1: the future, so what else is happening? Uh this year

39
00:02:09,530 --> 00:02:13,549
Speaker 1: in 2023 for evolving man, well I'm not coaching at all,

40
00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,630
Speaker 1: one on one, but I've refocused my efforts on group

41
00:02:17,630 --> 00:02:21,470
Speaker 1: programs and uh that enables me to contact as many

42
00:02:21,470 --> 00:02:22,679
Speaker 1: guys as possible

43
00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,380
Speaker 1: and just be really effective with my time while being

44
00:02:25,380 --> 00:02:28,230
Speaker 1: a present father. So there's two main things that I'm,

45
00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:32,869
Speaker 1: I'm into and one is a 12 week course that

46
00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,420
Speaker 1: is a cohort based model that I run with my

47
00:02:36,419 --> 00:02:40,970
Speaker 1: friend Nick Solochek, it's called the conscious relationship council and

48
00:02:40,970 --> 00:02:45,580
Speaker 1: the focus is relationship tool building for men,

49
00:02:46,310 --> 00:02:50,580
Speaker 1: It's men's group style, same meeting every week, same place,

50
00:02:50,580 --> 00:02:54,710
Speaker 1: same time, same group of guys for 12 weeks guys

51
00:02:54,710 --> 00:02:58,119
Speaker 1: bringing their stuff to the table and um you know,

52
00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,850
Speaker 1: there's a coaching component, there's a sort of group, men's

53
00:03:01,850 --> 00:03:07,060
Speaker 1: group coaching component to it and there is content that

54
00:03:07,060 --> 00:03:09,300
Speaker 1: we bring to the table, their relationship tools that we

55
00:03:09,300 --> 00:03:12,130
Speaker 1: bring each week frameworks of understanding

56
00:03:12,290 --> 00:03:15,470
Speaker 1: and practical stuff that guys can take to their relationships,

57
00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:17,580
Speaker 1: and we've run this a couple of times, and it

58
00:03:17,580 --> 00:03:19,630
Speaker 1: has gone really well, and so we're doing it again,

59
00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,760
Speaker 1: it's launching january 12th, which is coming up soon, and

60
00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,660
Speaker 1: there's only a few spots open uh there, we will

61
00:03:25,660 --> 00:03:28,510
Speaker 1: run it again, so that's why I'm sharing this here,

62
00:03:28,510 --> 00:03:30,630
Speaker 1: because if you're hearing this now and this interests you

63
00:03:30,630 --> 00:03:32,180
Speaker 1: and you're a man who wants to

64
00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:36,610
Speaker 1: explore what it might look like to level up in

65
00:03:36,610 --> 00:03:39,440
Speaker 1: your relationships, to gain some skills from guys who have

66
00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,900
Speaker 1: been out there, um gathering the tools, that's what this

67
00:03:43,900 --> 00:03:47,110
Speaker 1: is here for some safe men's container with a high

68
00:03:47,110 --> 00:03:49,930
Speaker 1: level of accountability uh for guys who want to learn

69
00:03:49,930 --> 00:03:53,550
Speaker 1: about this stuff. Is it for guys in relationship? Yes.

70
00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,200
Speaker 1: Is it for single guys? Yes. The last cohort that

71
00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,070
Speaker 1: we had was about two thirds men in relationship

72
00:04:00,220 --> 00:04:04,820
Speaker 1: and one third single men, definitely at least 50% of

73
00:04:04,820 --> 00:04:07,750
Speaker 1: the guys were dads, which was really awesome to see,

74
00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,500
Speaker 1: and our age range was from somewhere in the twenties

75
00:04:11,510 --> 00:04:15,140
Speaker 1: up to 60 we had a 60 year old man

76
00:04:15,140 --> 00:04:18,040
Speaker 1: in there with us, and he was loving it. So,

77
00:04:18,050 --> 00:04:21,960
Speaker 1: uh we've clearly hit something here that's working for guys,

78
00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:26,000
Speaker 1: and I want you to know it's the conscious relationship council,

79
00:04:26,010 --> 00:04:28,270
Speaker 1: and it's on my website, and in

80
00:04:28,540 --> 00:04:31,919
Speaker 1: the bios that I put on my socials. That's one thing,

81
00:04:31,930 --> 00:04:34,460
Speaker 1: the second thing is a private circle that I've been

82
00:04:34,460 --> 00:04:37,740
Speaker 1: running for guys centered around addiction recovery. It's called the

83
00:04:37,740 --> 00:04:41,330
Speaker 1: Freedom from addiction circle. Again, this is a men's group,

84
00:04:41,339 --> 00:04:46,270
Speaker 1: it's confidential closed. Uh, there's an application process to get in.

85
00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,440
Speaker 1: There's a maximum of 10 guys and it's uh 10

86
00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,860
Speaker 1: guys plus me, uh, every week, same place, same time

87
00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:59,690
Speaker 1: band of brothers style accountability guys who are serious about

88
00:04:59,700 --> 00:05:03,800
Speaker 1: making some progress in their journey with addiction

89
00:05:04,550 --> 00:05:08,560
Speaker 1: and getting across the line and into recovery. I've seen

90
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,990
Speaker 1: guys make big moves in this group. I've seen guys

91
00:05:10,990 --> 00:05:16,270
Speaker 1: come in transform their lives and start flying and then

92
00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:22,130
Speaker 1: quote graduate from this circle into our alumni group and

93
00:05:22,140 --> 00:05:25,120
Speaker 1: it's working. I don't have a sales page for this

94
00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,080
Speaker 1: right now. At this point it's been very sort of

95
00:05:28,089 --> 00:05:31,480
Speaker 1: analog and guys just emailing me requesting this. And so

96
00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,560
Speaker 1: I started it up, there will be

97
00:05:33,690 --> 00:05:35,730
Speaker 1: a website describing it at some point, but for now

98
00:05:35,730 --> 00:05:37,930
Speaker 1: there isn't, so people just have to DM me or

99
00:05:37,940 --> 00:05:41,600
Speaker 1: email me and I send um, the info and the

100
00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,000
Speaker 1: application form. So if you know someone or if you're

101
00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,390
Speaker 1: someone who's interested in this, um, this is for dudes

102
00:05:48,390 --> 00:05:52,260
Speaker 1: who are serious about making moves in their recovery, they're

103
00:05:52,260 --> 00:05:54,719
Speaker 1: willing to put the money and the time down

104
00:05:54,930 --> 00:05:58,530
Speaker 1: To make a change and that's what's happening. And so

105
00:05:58,529 --> 00:06:03,210
Speaker 1: guys who joined, they come generally for 3-6 months basically

106
00:06:03,210 --> 00:06:06,669
Speaker 1: until they feel like they've, until it's clear that they've

107
00:06:06,670 --> 00:06:10,880
Speaker 1: made progress and achieve their short term goals in recovery.

108
00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,690
Speaker 1: And then they move into the alumni circle which gets

109
00:06:14,700 --> 00:06:19,320
Speaker 1: early access to the in person addiction recovery retreats that

110
00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,650
Speaker 1: I'm going to start running again this year.

111
00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,610
Speaker 1: So I'm really excited about that. I'm really stoked about

112
00:06:24,620 --> 00:06:26,720
Speaker 1: the group that we currently have. The guys are just

113
00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,480
Speaker 1: really tight and um really good at holding each other accountable.

114
00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:35,000
Speaker 1: So I'm on a mission to get 100 guys through

115
00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,730
Speaker 1: this course uh for in however long it takes. I'm

116
00:06:38,730 --> 00:06:41,470
Speaker 1: not pushing guys threw in a fast way, but I

117
00:06:41,470 --> 00:06:43,400
Speaker 1: want to impact as many guys as I can through

118
00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,580
Speaker 1: this circle, so get in touch with, that's something that

119
00:06:46,589 --> 00:06:51,500
Speaker 1: interests you on to the show, folks. Connor Beaton

120
00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:56,890
Speaker 1: mainly in this episode, we dig into the importance of

121
00:06:57,750 --> 00:07:02,210
Speaker 1: Diving into your issues with your father. We talk about

122
00:07:02,210 --> 00:07:04,750
Speaker 1: the shadow of the father for like a good 40

123
00:07:04,750 --> 00:07:08,779
Speaker 1: minutes in this episode and I think we gave it

124
00:07:08,779 --> 00:07:11,740
Speaker 1: that much time because it was just a really juicy

125
00:07:11,740 --> 00:07:15,060
Speaker 1: subject to dig into, and it really is one of

126
00:07:15,060 --> 00:07:17,460
Speaker 1: the foundations of men's work.

127
00:07:18,090 --> 00:07:20,990
Speaker 1: Uh so enjoy that. And then we also touched on

128
00:07:20,990 --> 00:07:25,020
Speaker 1: Infidelity and porn primarily. We those are two separate things.

129
00:07:25,030 --> 00:07:29,740
Speaker 1: Um but we we focused in on porn and uh

130
00:07:29,750 --> 00:07:32,650
Speaker 1: we just mentioned the link between the two and addressed

131
00:07:32,650 --> 00:07:35,720
Speaker 1: some of the concerns about the links between porn and

132
00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:41,860
Speaker 1: infidelity and um definitely opened the door to future conversations

133
00:07:41,870 --> 00:07:43,550
Speaker 1: about infidelity

134
00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,550
Speaker 1: and as always Connor and I are just itching to

135
00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,630
Speaker 1: have more conversations um because we, we sort of open

136
00:07:50,630 --> 00:07:52,950
Speaker 1: all these doors on our episodes and and then we

137
00:07:52,950 --> 00:07:55,500
Speaker 1: just want to talk more. So uh if you enjoy

138
00:07:55,500 --> 00:07:59,310
Speaker 1: the episode, please share it with friends. Please comment. Subscribe

139
00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:04,790
Speaker 1: and know that I'm posting the episodes on Youtube these days.

140
00:08:04,790 --> 00:08:08,230
Speaker 1: I want people to be able to watch the content

141
00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,270
Speaker 1: as well if that's what they're interested in. If they

142
00:08:10,270 --> 00:08:11,710
Speaker 1: want a little bit more engagement,

143
00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,070
Speaker 1: I didn't know that people would want to do that,

144
00:08:14,070 --> 00:08:18,830
Speaker 1: but I'm seeing that people do, you know, I recently

145
00:08:18,830 --> 00:08:22,810
Speaker 1: saw a woman posting in her instagram stories, like she

146
00:08:22,810 --> 00:08:24,800
Speaker 1: had lit candles and was like sitting down in the

147
00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,550
Speaker 1: living room to watch the episode that I did with

148
00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:29,660
Speaker 1: Amir Colicky,

149
00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,900
Speaker 1: which is like, I mean I love that women are

150
00:08:32,900 --> 00:08:35,230
Speaker 1: listening to this show and are stoked about it and

151
00:08:35,230 --> 00:08:38,410
Speaker 1: I'm targeting men and so like to see a woman

152
00:08:38,410 --> 00:08:41,110
Speaker 1: like lighting candles and sitting down to watch the show.

153
00:08:41,110 --> 00:08:44,460
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, this is this is really cool. And

154
00:08:44,460 --> 00:08:50,209
Speaker 1: I appreciate all the support that women um fire towards me.

155
00:08:50,220 --> 00:08:53,170
Speaker 1: And um and to Connor, you know Connor and I

156
00:08:53,170 --> 00:08:55,630
Speaker 1: talked about that before the episode about how supportive the

157
00:08:55,630 --> 00:08:56,870
Speaker 1: women have been

158
00:08:57,110 --> 00:09:00,369
Speaker 1: for both of us in doing men's work and for

159
00:09:00,370 --> 00:09:01,699
Speaker 1: all the men around the world. Like

160
00:09:02,460 --> 00:09:05,520
Speaker 1: it's just been amazing. So thank you again to the

161
00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,199
Speaker 1: ladies who are in their own way learning what's out

162
00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,429
Speaker 1: there for men and gently suggesting it or holding men

163
00:09:13,429 --> 00:09:14,940
Speaker 1: accountable to doing their work.

164
00:09:16,309 --> 00:09:20,050
Speaker 1: Ok, folks enjoy this episode with Connor Beaton,

165
00:09:22,730 --> 00:09:25,550
Speaker 1: inspiring conversations for the modern man,

166
00:09:28,620 --> 00:09:30,610
Speaker 1: the evolving man podcast.

167
00:09:35,260 --> 00:09:39,310
Speaker 1: Connor Beaton, welcome back to the evolving man podcast brother,

168
00:09:39,309 --> 00:09:41,330
Speaker 1: it's great to have you on the show again, it's

169
00:09:41,330 --> 00:09:44,270
Speaker 1: good to see you and uh I think it's your

170
00:09:44,270 --> 00:09:46,309
Speaker 1: second time. Where's your third?

171
00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,370
Speaker 2: You know, I was thinking about this the other day,

172
00:09:48,370 --> 00:09:51,700
Speaker 2: I'm not 100% sure I know that I was on

173
00:09:51,700 --> 00:09:54,929
Speaker 2: during the pandemic, like rate in the heat of it

174
00:09:54,940 --> 00:09:59,750
Speaker 2: because we were up in whistler. Uh so I'm not 100% sure.

175
00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,489
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that that was the first yeah, I

176
00:10:02,490 --> 00:10:04,689
Speaker 1: think that was the first one. Um

177
00:10:04,850 --> 00:10:09,010
Speaker 1: anyhow, Great to have you on again, my friend. Um

178
00:10:09,610 --> 00:10:14,140
Speaker 1: for those who don't know, Connor Connor is a speaker,

179
00:10:14,150 --> 00:10:19,160
Speaker 1: uh founder of Man talks Man talks is involved with

180
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:24,370
Speaker 1: men's work, you do retreats for men, you lied masterminds,

181
00:10:24,370 --> 00:10:27,590
Speaker 1: you have an online brotherhood called the alliance, you have

182
00:10:27,590 --> 00:10:31,650
Speaker 1: a podcast called the Man talks podcast and uh you

183
00:10:31,650 --> 00:10:35,610
Speaker 1: are in it, you are in all things men's work,

184
00:10:35,610 --> 00:10:37,640
Speaker 1: you have a course a shadow work course that's self

185
00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:38,920
Speaker 1: directed that guys can

186
00:10:39,220 --> 00:10:40,290
Speaker 1: dig into,

187
00:10:41,110 --> 00:10:44,400
Speaker 1: you built a whole thing around men's work and it's working.

188
00:10:45,070 --> 00:10:48,070
Speaker 1: I think it's probably a good way to summarize it.

189
00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,510
Speaker 1: A lot of guys follow you, a lot of guys

190
00:10:50,510 --> 00:10:53,190
Speaker 1: respect what you have to say and the people that

191
00:10:53,190 --> 00:10:54,870
Speaker 1: you have on your show and

192
00:10:55,780 --> 00:11:00,300
Speaker 1: have observed your continued growth in your continued journey um

193
00:11:00,309 --> 00:11:04,720
Speaker 1: as you've leveled up as a man, while being man

194
00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:09,190
Speaker 1: talks founder as you've gotten married, as you've become a

195
00:11:09,190 --> 00:11:12,970
Speaker 1: father and started talking about fatherhood

196
00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,429
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's just a pleasure to have you on

197
00:11:17,429 --> 00:11:19,760
Speaker 1: the show. I think there's a lot of men that

198
00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,209
Speaker 1: listen to this show that are into men's work and

199
00:11:23,220 --> 00:11:26,160
Speaker 1: you've written a book, you've written a book and it's

200
00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,120
Speaker 1: coming out at the end of the month, right? This

201
00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,530
Speaker 1: is we're in January 2022 right now, January 31 is

202
00:11:31,530 --> 00:11:32,390
Speaker 1: your release date?

203
00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,130
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're in 23 right now. 23 keep

204
00:11:36,140 --> 00:11:40,589
Speaker 1: Writing and saying 20, you know, it takes about a

205
00:11:40,590 --> 00:11:40,960
Speaker 1: month to

206
00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:42,490
Speaker 2: get organized

207
00:11:44,309 --> 00:11:48,050
Speaker 1: uh men's work, a practical guide to face your darkness

208
00:11:48,059 --> 00:11:50,630
Speaker 1: and self sabotage and find freedom

209
00:11:52,830 --> 00:11:57,610
Speaker 1: solid and timely book. Uh coming out, there's, I feel

210
00:11:57,610 --> 00:12:00,929
Speaker 1: like there's more and more men these days who are

211
00:12:00,929 --> 00:12:01,729
Speaker 1: saying like,

212
00:12:02,460 --> 00:12:03,780
Speaker 1: okay, like

213
00:12:04,460 --> 00:12:07,970
Speaker 1: it's this is my time to do quote deep work

214
00:12:07,980 --> 00:12:11,620
Speaker 1: or like work on myself, what is that?

215
00:12:12,140 --> 00:12:13,329
Speaker 1: And what do I do?

216
00:12:14,020 --> 00:12:16,940
Speaker 1: And they're reaching out and saying like, okay, where do

217
00:12:16,940 --> 00:12:17,520
Speaker 1: I look

218
00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,520
Speaker 1: and and who can guide me and you know, last year,

219
00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:27,770
Speaker 1: one of our mutual uh mentors and elders, john Weiland

220
00:12:27,770 --> 00:12:29,290
Speaker 1: released his book from the core

221
00:12:30,090 --> 00:12:33,300
Speaker 1: and guys ate that up and um

222
00:12:33,820 --> 00:12:38,069
Speaker 1: I think this is perfect timing, New Year, a new

223
00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,900
Speaker 1: take on men's work. And so I'm stoked to talk

224
00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:44,579
Speaker 1: about what that is for you.

225
00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:48,410
Speaker 1: I love

226
00:12:48,410 --> 00:12:51,059
Speaker 2: it man, well thanks for having me and and yeah,

227
00:12:51,059 --> 00:12:54,430
Speaker 2: I mean john's book is, is awesome and um john

228
00:12:54,429 --> 00:12:57,579
Speaker 2: is just an incredible human being and uh you know, it's,

229
00:12:57,590 --> 00:13:03,140
Speaker 2: it's interesting. I was on the Sacred Sons podcast and

230
00:13:03,150 --> 00:13:04,929
Speaker 2: and before we started, the guy was like, you know,

231
00:13:04,929 --> 00:13:07,770
Speaker 2: it's you called the book Men's Work, like that's pretty,

232
00:13:07,780 --> 00:13:09,150
Speaker 2: that's pretty ballsy.

233
00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,260
Speaker 1: Yeah,

234
00:13:11,270 --> 00:13:14,640
Speaker 2: you know, I really contemplated that for a while. Um,

235
00:13:14,650 --> 00:13:15,720
Speaker 2: but

236
00:13:16,570 --> 00:13:18,510
Speaker 2: you know, I think, I think one of the reasons

237
00:13:18,510 --> 00:13:20,420
Speaker 2: why I called it men's work is because there is

238
00:13:20,420 --> 00:13:23,410
Speaker 2: this emerging space where men are looking to do, quote,

239
00:13:23,410 --> 00:13:26,380
Speaker 2: unquote the work, whatever that whatever that might mean. And

240
00:13:26,380 --> 00:13:29,030
Speaker 2: there's many different versions of it and I don't pretend

241
00:13:29,030 --> 00:13:32,850
Speaker 2: to to own men's work in any way, shape or form.

242
00:13:32,860 --> 00:13:37,199
Speaker 2: You know, everyone has their, their different version, their different

243
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,000
Speaker 2: way of doing it, what they offer, what they bring

244
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,370
Speaker 2: to the table, their niche, their expertise. Um, but I

245
00:13:42,370 --> 00:13:44,439
Speaker 2: want to try and create something that

246
00:13:44,980 --> 00:13:49,530
Speaker 2: was both a gateway for men that are new to

247
00:13:49,540 --> 00:13:53,860
Speaker 2: uh self reflection and self discovery and self authorship and

248
00:13:53,860 --> 00:13:58,480
Speaker 2: leadership and but also that carried enough depth for the

249
00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,740
Speaker 2: men that had been doing this work for a decade

250
00:14:00,750 --> 00:14:03,680
Speaker 2: that might be able to approach it from a different

251
00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,500
Speaker 2: way where they would see something about themselves or in

252
00:14:06,500 --> 00:14:07,360
Speaker 2: themselves

253
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,179
Speaker 2: that they that they hadn't come across before. And so

254
00:14:11,179 --> 00:14:14,420
Speaker 2: that was a little bit of a tricky thing to do.

255
00:14:14,429 --> 00:14:16,250
Speaker 2: But I say right in the beginning of the book,

256
00:14:16,250 --> 00:14:18,880
Speaker 2: like there there are many different forms of men's work

257
00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,470
Speaker 2: and I recognize that and this is just one, you know,

258
00:14:22,470 --> 00:14:24,380
Speaker 2: and I hope that it serves the men that go

259
00:14:24,380 --> 00:14:27,790
Speaker 2: through the book. Um but there are there are certainly

260
00:14:27,790 --> 00:14:29,900
Speaker 2: others that are out there. And so I just want

261
00:14:29,900 --> 00:14:32,340
Speaker 2: to sort of preface everything that we talked about with

262
00:14:32,340 --> 00:14:33,190
Speaker 2: that because

263
00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,780
Speaker 2: uh you know, men's work is a category that really

264
00:14:37,790 --> 00:14:39,590
Speaker 2: like you, and I in some ways, maybe I'll just

265
00:14:39,590 --> 00:14:42,510
Speaker 2: speak for myself, I know that I'm walking in the

266
00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,540
Speaker 2: in the, you know, footsteps of some pretty incredible men,

267
00:14:46,550 --> 00:14:47,350
Speaker 1: you know,

268
00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,610
Speaker 2: I've had the honor to work with and then some

269
00:14:50,610 --> 00:14:53,710
Speaker 2: men that I never had the chance to to sort

270
00:14:53,710 --> 00:14:57,590
Speaker 2: of sit in front of because they had passed. And

271
00:14:57,590 --> 00:15:00,700
Speaker 2: so so it's a it's a genre that has definitely

272
00:15:00,710 --> 00:15:01,980
Speaker 2: come before us. And

273
00:15:02,330 --> 00:15:04,650
Speaker 2: um but, you know, I had a lot of people

274
00:15:04,650 --> 00:15:06,390
Speaker 2: reaching out over the years, they were like, what books

275
00:15:06,390 --> 00:15:08,330
Speaker 2: should men read, and I was like, I feel like

276
00:15:08,330 --> 00:15:12,130
Speaker 2: I keep giving them the same freaking books, you know,

277
00:15:12,140 --> 00:15:15,750
Speaker 2: like a nice guy, You know, go read where the

278
00:15:15,750 --> 00:15:18,770
Speaker 2: superior man. You know, there's there's a couple other ones

279
00:15:18,770 --> 00:15:21,420
Speaker 2: that you can go and read depending on where you're

280
00:15:21,420 --> 00:15:24,080
Speaker 2: at and what you're wanting to work on. Right? Um,

281
00:15:24,820 --> 00:15:28,170
Speaker 2: but I wanted to try and and summarize the work

282
00:15:28,170 --> 00:15:30,330
Speaker 2: that I've had to do in my own life.

283
00:15:30,930 --> 00:15:35,610
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's very appropriate that you have done

284
00:15:35,610 --> 00:15:36,720
Speaker 1: that here. Because

285
00:15:37,980 --> 00:15:40,240
Speaker 1: those two books that you mentioned are also books that

286
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,720
Speaker 1: I recommend to people and

287
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,150
Speaker 1: I love robert glover. I've had him on the show.

288
00:15:47,340 --> 00:15:50,890
Speaker 1: No more. Mr, Nice guy is a fantastic book, but

289
00:15:50,890 --> 00:15:53,690
Speaker 1: it takes the nice guy angle, right? Looking at the

290
00:15:53,690 --> 00:15:56,310
Speaker 1: nice guy phenomenon and how to deal with that.

291
00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,090
Speaker 1: The way of the superior man is is the

292
00:16:01,610 --> 00:16:07,730
Speaker 1: is sort of art of energetic exchange and intimacy and polarity.

293
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,590
Speaker 1: It's there's tantric elements there, right? And there it's sort

294
00:16:12,590 --> 00:16:15,880
Speaker 1: of way out there. You know, some people

295
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,310
Speaker 1: read it and they're like, I don't even get this man,

296
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:19,650
Speaker 1: what's

297
00:16:19,650 --> 00:16:22,030
Speaker 2: this, what's this guy saying? Exactly, yeah.

298
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:26,000
Speaker 1: Meanwhile you and I were sitting in these men's circles

299
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,770
Speaker 1: and we're doing shadow work and we're doing secret sharing.

300
00:16:30,770 --> 00:16:33,560
Speaker 1: We're talking about sex. We're talking about porn.

301
00:16:33,890 --> 00:16:38,950
Speaker 1: Um, there's this like fire. There's this accountability. There's also

302
00:16:38,950 --> 00:16:41,530
Speaker 1: a softness that holds men when they need to be

303
00:16:41,530 --> 00:16:47,690
Speaker 1: held and there's this working through of projections and the

304
00:16:47,690 --> 00:16:52,790
Speaker 1: father wound the mother wound in some cases embodiment work.

305
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:55,950
Speaker 1: And so where do you point guys

306
00:16:56,550 --> 00:17:00,640
Speaker 1: for that book that describes that, right? And that's always

307
00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,540
Speaker 1: been my issue as well, you know, and john's book

308
00:17:03,550 --> 00:17:07,570
Speaker 1: has been a really good start to that because he basically,

309
00:17:07,570 --> 00:17:10,090
Speaker 1: he's in a way, he's taken david data's work and

310
00:17:10,090 --> 00:17:14,270
Speaker 1: made it modernized and made it more understandable and practical and,

311
00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,560
Speaker 1: and there's other sort of men's work, uh stuff woven

312
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,940
Speaker 1: in there. But we need

313
00:17:21,250 --> 00:17:23,680
Speaker 1: in a way, we do need this, this field manual

314
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,600
Speaker 1: that's like, hey, men's work, here's what it is, here's

315
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,119
Speaker 1: what you gotta do and here's how you can do it, right?

316
00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,370
Speaker 1: So I appreciate that you've put this down in

317
00:17:34,369 --> 00:17:37,639
Speaker 2: words, it's like, it's like practical and tactical, you know, my,

318
00:17:37,650 --> 00:17:41,340
Speaker 2: my mission when I set out was in, in some ways.

319
00:17:41,340 --> 00:17:44,680
Speaker 2: Like I wanted to be the book that every therapist

320
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 2: or psychologist or coach that was working with a man

321
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,770
Speaker 2: would say you should go read this book,

322
00:17:50,020 --> 00:17:52,820
Speaker 2: you know, this will give you a good a good

323
00:17:52,820 --> 00:17:55,680
Speaker 2: ground or foundation to stand on as you go through

324
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:57,880
Speaker 2: this work. It'll give you some of the lingo, it'll

325
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,810
Speaker 2: give you practical tools, you know, to, to work on. Um,

326
00:18:01,820 --> 00:18:05,200
Speaker 2: because honestly, like when I started doing this work, I

327
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,790
Speaker 2: just couldn't find that for myself. You know, like I

328
00:18:07,790 --> 00:18:11,780
Speaker 2: remember reading with the spirit man being like, cool, love this.

329
00:18:11,790 --> 00:18:15,930
Speaker 2: Like what do I do with that? You know? And,

330
00:18:15,940 --> 00:18:18,699
Speaker 2: and you know, this is like 10, 12 years ago.

331
00:18:18,930 --> 00:18:20,910
Speaker 2: Um and thankfully I had a mentor in my

332
00:18:20,910 --> 00:18:22,399
Speaker 1: life who

333
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,570
Speaker 2: walked me through a lot of the stuff that's in

334
00:18:25,570 --> 00:18:27,899
Speaker 2: the book, right? A lot of the shadow work concepts

335
00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:30,980
Speaker 2: and taught me about union psychology and uh you know,

336
00:18:30,990 --> 00:18:35,750
Speaker 2: I learned about zen buddhism and meditation and mindfulness and

337
00:18:35,750 --> 00:18:40,430
Speaker 2: cognitive behavioral therapy and all of these different modalities that

338
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:44,050
Speaker 2: have become very useful, but also like a staple in

339
00:18:44,050 --> 00:18:44,760
Speaker 2: my life.

340
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,570
Speaker 2: And so, you know, I think one of the things

341
00:18:47,570 --> 00:18:49,340
Speaker 2: for me is, as I've worked with men over the

342
00:18:49,340 --> 00:18:52,270
Speaker 2: last decade, I've I've come to see that every man

343
00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:57,830
Speaker 2: wants to have some deep sense of self authorship in

344
00:18:57,830 --> 00:19:00,610
Speaker 2: his life and what I usually say is self leadership, right?

345
00:19:00,609 --> 00:19:04,409
Speaker 2: Like we crave to lead ourselves effectively, right? We don't

346
00:19:04,410 --> 00:19:07,840
Speaker 2: want to be sucking up and and and screwing up

347
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,450
Speaker 2: constantly and sabotaging our relationships and sabotaging our sex life

348
00:19:11,450 --> 00:19:14,630
Speaker 2: and sabotaging our fucking finances and sabotaging our health and fitness.

349
00:19:14,810 --> 00:19:20,160
Speaker 2: We want some level of inner authority. And so my

350
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,410
Speaker 2: undertaking in writing this book was how can I create

351
00:19:23,410 --> 00:19:26,910
Speaker 2: something that is going to walk a man back to

352
00:19:26,910 --> 00:19:31,150
Speaker 2: his sense of inner authority that he has either gone

353
00:19:31,150 --> 00:19:35,050
Speaker 2: astray from in his life that he has been disconnected

354
00:19:35,050 --> 00:19:38,119
Speaker 2: from because of the pain he experienced through abuse or

355
00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:40,940
Speaker 2: neglect or abandonment. That was me, right, which I write

356
00:19:40,940 --> 00:19:41,720
Speaker 2: about in the book

357
00:19:41,940 --> 00:19:45,160
Speaker 2: or that society has sort of bread out of him

358
00:19:45,170 --> 00:19:48,119
Speaker 2: because we live in an era where

359
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:54,090
Speaker 2: you are almost encouraged to be an overly domesticated, soft man,

360
00:19:54,100 --> 00:19:57,540
Speaker 2: you know, and that's that's welcome. That's all that really

361
00:19:57,540 --> 00:20:01,450
Speaker 2: is almost encouraged in in the sort of mainstream narrative.

362
00:20:01,460 --> 00:20:05,610
Speaker 2: And for a lot of men, it's not satisfying or satiating,

363
00:20:05,609 --> 00:20:10,260
Speaker 2: they're not fulfilled and they crave for something deeper and

364
00:20:10,270 --> 00:20:12,630
Speaker 2: we usually look for it out in the world, but

365
00:20:12,630 --> 00:20:17,580
Speaker 2: where we find it first is almost always within ourselves. So, yeah,

366
00:20:19,950 --> 00:20:24,899
Speaker 1: the first part of the book is about Leading through Darkness,

367
00:20:25,910 --> 00:20:28,679
Speaker 1: Leading yourself through darkness. And

368
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:34,780
Speaker 1: I really appreciated how you do share about your own

369
00:20:34,780 --> 00:20:38,040
Speaker 1: story in your own darkness, your your lowest moment in

370
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,550
Speaker 1: your life. You're sharing about very early in this book,

371
00:20:41,550 --> 00:20:42,540
Speaker 1: your own darkness.

372
00:20:43,490 --> 00:20:44,350
Speaker 1: And

373
00:20:45,300 --> 00:20:47,859
Speaker 1: so I want to drop into that for a bit.

374
00:20:47,859 --> 00:20:53,770
Speaker 1: This leading through darkness, like what darkness and particularly I

375
00:20:53,770 --> 00:20:55,270
Speaker 1: know there's a few things that we can touch on

376
00:20:55,270 --> 00:20:57,969
Speaker 1: relative to the darkness piece, but the first place that

377
00:20:57,970 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 1: I'd love to go is

378
00:21:00,940 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 1: The Father. You've got a chapter called The Shadow of

379
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:06,970
Speaker 1: the Father. And

380
00:21:08,660 --> 00:21:11,940
Speaker 1: for me, that always interests me because

381
00:21:13,130 --> 00:21:14,729
Speaker 1: When I was, I was in rehab when I was

382
00:21:14,730 --> 00:21:15,620
Speaker 1: 16

383
00:21:16,230 --> 00:21:19,970
Speaker 1: and we had these all these different kind of configurations

384
00:21:19,970 --> 00:21:22,250
Speaker 1: of groups that would meet during the day. It was

385
00:21:22,250 --> 00:21:24,570
Speaker 1: just like group therapy all day long, like seven days

386
00:21:24,570 --> 00:21:25,980
Speaker 1: a week. It was really intense.

387
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,409
Speaker 1: Um the most powerful group was guys, group, guys rap,

388
00:21:30,410 --> 00:21:32,980
Speaker 1: they called it and it was just the men or

389
00:21:32,980 --> 00:21:35,460
Speaker 1: just the teen boys run by a couple of men

390
00:21:35,470 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 1: and

391
00:21:37,450 --> 00:21:40,220
Speaker 1: we would talk about sex, we would talk about our secrets,

392
00:21:40,220 --> 00:21:42,940
Speaker 1: but we were the most intense groups where we talked

393
00:21:42,940 --> 00:21:46,730
Speaker 1: about our dads, we'd all come out of their tears

394
00:21:46,730 --> 00:21:50,670
Speaker 1: in our eyes at the dinner line up just like

395
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 1: still crying, you know, because

396
00:21:52,820 --> 00:21:55,459
Speaker 1: that subject matter was so intense for us, it was

397
00:21:55,460 --> 00:21:58,369
Speaker 1: so impactful for us and and you know, we were

398
00:21:58,369 --> 00:22:00,689
Speaker 1: in a particular situation where we had felt, you know,

399
00:22:00,690 --> 00:22:03,060
Speaker 1: there was, yeah, there was abandonment and wounding from the father,

400
00:22:03,060 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 1: but there was also this like great betrayal that we

401
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,740
Speaker 1: had all failed our fathers because we were in rehab,

402
00:22:08,740 --> 00:22:09,879
Speaker 2: right, there was a

403
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 1: lot of pain there, but that work around dad's was

404
00:22:15,010 --> 00:22:17,770
Speaker 1: so impactful for me, it was also very healing to

405
00:22:17,770 --> 00:22:21,159
Speaker 1: do that in a circle of men. And so um

406
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,730
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear like what you describe a little

407
00:22:23,730 --> 00:22:26,570
Speaker 1: bit as the shadow of the father and the importance

408
00:22:26,580 --> 00:22:32,010
Speaker 1: of every man um going into that work, not just

409
00:22:32,020 --> 00:22:34,440
Speaker 1: us guys in rehab, but but every man, because I

410
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,850
Speaker 1: see that in my brotherhood as well, it's like one

411
00:22:36,850 --> 00:22:40,360
Speaker 1: of the staples that we get into with with every man.

412
00:22:41,210 --> 00:22:43,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, well

413
00:22:45,790 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 2: there's sort of three ways that I wanna approach this

414
00:22:49,530 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 2: one is

415
00:22:51,820 --> 00:22:54,330
Speaker 2: what is the archetype of the father. So what are

416
00:22:54,330 --> 00:22:58,010
Speaker 2: we actually talking about in terms of, what role does

417
00:22:58,010 --> 00:23:00,869
Speaker 2: the father play within a within a child's development? I

418
00:23:00,869 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 2: think that's important. Second is my own, my own personal um,

419
00:23:05,609 --> 00:23:09,020
Speaker 2: relationship to this work. And then third, what is the

420
00:23:09,020 --> 00:23:12,469
Speaker 2: data show? Right, what is the data actually show? So,

421
00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:15,699
Speaker 2: I think I'll probably start there, which is, you know,

422
00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:16,590
Speaker 2: if you look at

423
00:23:16,850 --> 00:23:20,239
Speaker 2: Some of the most damaging things that a child will

424
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:25,710
Speaker 2: go through, right? Youth suicides, homelessness, runaway dropping out of school,

425
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,710
Speaker 2: a lot of it can be correlated back to um,

426
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,540
Speaker 2: Children without fathers. And so you can see, like, for example,

427
00:23:33,540 --> 00:23:34,670
Speaker 2: 63

428
00:23:34,790 --> 00:23:40,930
Speaker 2: of youth suicides are from fatherless homes, 90% 90% of

429
00:23:40,940 --> 00:23:45,100
Speaker 2: all homelessness and run runaway Children are from fatherless homes,

430
00:23:45,109 --> 00:23:49,810
Speaker 2: which is 32 times the national average, 85% of Children

431
00:23:49,820 --> 00:23:54,100
Speaker 2: show behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes again 20 to

432
00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 2: 20 times the average. So we can just go down

433
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,060
Speaker 2: the list, right? We can just like that list. It's

434
00:24:00,070 --> 00:24:02,090
Speaker 2: probably a lot of people have heard some of those

435
00:24:02,090 --> 00:24:04,090
Speaker 2: stats before. They're a little jarring

436
00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:08,360
Speaker 2: and it's uncomfortable sometimes, but the reality is that

437
00:24:08,869 --> 00:24:12,429
Speaker 2: a father plays a very, very integral part in a

438
00:24:12,430 --> 00:24:15,619
Speaker 2: child's development. And so I'm gonna work my way back

439
00:24:15,619 --> 00:24:19,179
Speaker 2: up the chain. Um from the archetype of father, my

440
00:24:19,180 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 2: personal experience to the stats. So that's kind of the data, right,

441
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,310
Speaker 2: that some of the research, my personal experience was, my

442
00:24:24,310 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 2: parents got divorced when I was three and

443
00:24:27,830 --> 00:24:31,050
Speaker 2: my father's leaving was

444
00:24:32,130 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 2: without doubt, the most painful thing that I've experienced in

445
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 2: my life without doubt. You know, when my, when my

446
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,180
Speaker 2: parents got divorced and it's, it's hard to talk about

447
00:24:42,180 --> 00:24:43,949
Speaker 2: this as an adult because you're like, oh well, you're

448
00:24:43,950 --> 00:24:45,810
Speaker 2: just a kid and you didn't know your, you know,

449
00:24:45,810 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 2: you don't know what you're going through and,

450
00:24:47,450 --> 00:24:49,510
Speaker 2: and you know, you don't know what your dad was

451
00:24:49,510 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 2: going through and all the sort of things that we

452
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,430
Speaker 2: as human beings want to do, to protect that that

453
00:24:56,430 --> 00:24:58,890
Speaker 2: parent or to protect our younger selves or to make

454
00:24:58,890 --> 00:25:03,230
Speaker 2: excuses or whatever. But I remember when my mom got

455
00:25:03,230 --> 00:25:07,450
Speaker 2: remarried to my stepfather, there were countless nights where I

456
00:25:07,450 --> 00:25:10,540
Speaker 2: was just a mess, you know, five year old, six

457
00:25:10,540 --> 00:25:13,460
Speaker 2: year old, seven year old boy for years man, like

458
00:25:13,460 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 2: for years crying and

459
00:25:16,369 --> 00:25:19,510
Speaker 2: wanting to be around him, not understanding why he couldn't

460
00:25:19,510 --> 00:25:21,490
Speaker 2: be there, you know, and I got to see him

461
00:25:21,490 --> 00:25:25,180
Speaker 2: once or twice a month, but the reality was, was

462
00:25:25,180 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 2: that one, not only was that not enough but to

463
00:25:28,330 --> 00:25:31,060
Speaker 2: his vacancy left a vacancy in

464
00:25:31,060 --> 00:25:31,490
Speaker 1: me,

465
00:25:32,550 --> 00:25:35,770
Speaker 2: It left a vacancy in me that later on in life.

466
00:25:35,780 --> 00:25:38,640
Speaker 2: Unbeknownst to me, I would try and fill with drugs

467
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,859
Speaker 2: with women with porn with Booze, with whatever fucking destructive

468
00:25:42,859 --> 00:25:45,980
Speaker 2: behavior I could get my hands on, right, driving 320

469
00:25:45,980 --> 00:25:50,410
Speaker 2: km an hour on my motorcycle on the highway, street racing, stunting,

470
00:25:50,420 --> 00:25:53,730
Speaker 2: you know, drinking myself into oblivion, etc.

471
00:25:55,380 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 2: But after doing some of this work, what I realized

472
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,830
Speaker 2: was that there was this pain in his departure

473
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,090
Speaker 2: that as a young boy I didn't know how to

474
00:26:05,090 --> 00:26:06,830
Speaker 2: deal with, I didn't know how to cope with.

475
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,830
Speaker 2: And the reason why that's so important again, if we

476
00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:12,389
Speaker 2: take one more step up, the chain is the role

477
00:26:12,390 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 2: of the father. Right In a young boy's eyes, the

478
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:20,090
Speaker 2: role of the father. The archetype is the sort of

479
00:26:20,090 --> 00:26:22,859
Speaker 2: closest thing that we have to God as a, as

480
00:26:22,859 --> 00:26:24,270
Speaker 2: a child as a young boy,

481
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: it's the archetype of the masculine. For a young boy,

482
00:26:30,090 --> 00:26:34,290
Speaker 2: it's the archetype of the protector. It's the archetype of leadership.

483
00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:37,889
Speaker 2: It's the archetype of strength. It's the embodiment of a

484
00:26:37,890 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: lot of the characteristics and traits that we as men

485
00:26:41,850 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 2: want to uh that we want to embody that we

486
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,530
Speaker 2: want to be able to enact within our lives. And

487
00:26:49,530 --> 00:26:51,690
Speaker 2: so the absence of that thing

488
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:58,629
Speaker 2: leaves us with this kind of haze and an unknowing

489
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,910
Speaker 2: of what to do, how to be an effective leader,

490
00:27:01,910 --> 00:27:05,770
Speaker 2: how to be a man, how to be a good partner, right?

491
00:27:05,780 --> 00:27:09,619
Speaker 2: How to find direction within the world, how to be

492
00:27:09,630 --> 00:27:13,140
Speaker 2: just simple things like capable and competent,

493
00:27:13,330 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 2: you know, in certain areas of life and so what

494
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,370
Speaker 2: we do to fill the absence absence is not absence

495
00:27:20,369 --> 00:27:24,510
Speaker 2: because that's, that's, that's what we use sometimes. But what

496
00:27:24,510 --> 00:27:27,570
Speaker 2: we do is we, we try and act out, we

497
00:27:27,570 --> 00:27:29,490
Speaker 2: try and, and um,

498
00:27:30,210 --> 00:27:33,730
Speaker 2: and behave as young boys do, which is maybe if

499
00:27:33,730 --> 00:27:38,230
Speaker 2: I act out enough, dad will step in and intervene.

500
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 2: So that's what I did as a kid, right? I

501
00:27:41,050 --> 00:27:45,460
Speaker 2: acted out in class. I acted out with friends with family.

502
00:27:45,470 --> 00:27:48,430
Speaker 2: You know, that that behavior just carried on in an

503
00:27:48,430 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 2: attempt to try and have my father intervene, which, which

504
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,889
Speaker 2: never really happened. Um, Now

505
00:27:55,430 --> 00:27:57,929
Speaker 2: I talk about in the book that the shadow of

506
00:27:57,930 --> 00:28:02,490
Speaker 2: the father, um, isn't necessarily bad or good. It's just absolute,

507
00:28:02,490 --> 00:28:05,690
Speaker 2: it's just a given, it's a granted whether your father

508
00:28:05,690 --> 00:28:09,690
Speaker 2: was there or not, doesn't mean that he didn't leave

509
00:28:09,690 --> 00:28:13,230
Speaker 2: a shadow, right? Doesn't, doesn't mean that there wasn't something

510
00:28:13,230 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 2: that he unintentionally passed on to you. You know, there's

511
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 2: this great quote by Nietzsche

512
00:28:18,940 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 2: where he says the secrets of the father will be

513
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,770
Speaker 2: revealed in the Sun, right? The secrets of the father

514
00:28:24,770 --> 00:28:28,609
Speaker 2: will be revealed in the Sun. And so, you know,

515
00:28:28,619 --> 00:28:30,850
Speaker 2: absent fathers is just a part of it.

516
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,750
Speaker 2: You know, maybe your father was was there, but he

517
00:28:34,750 --> 00:28:37,929
Speaker 2: was absent because he was an alcoholic or a workaholic

518
00:28:37,940 --> 00:28:41,060
Speaker 2: or he was there, but he was emotionally disconnected or

519
00:28:41,060 --> 00:28:42,770
Speaker 2: maybe you got to see him a couple of times

520
00:28:42,770 --> 00:28:45,229
Speaker 2: a month, but you've never really felt close to him

521
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 2: or he was there and he was just an abusive,

522
00:28:47,690 --> 00:28:51,260
Speaker 2: you know, he was hitting you constantly and berating you

523
00:28:51,260 --> 00:28:52,500
Speaker 2: and verbally abusing you

524
00:28:53,070 --> 00:28:55,890
Speaker 2: and just, you know, taking it out on you or

525
00:28:55,890 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 2: he was there and he was this exceptional man that

526
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,230
Speaker 2: you have always felt like you could never live up to.

527
00:29:02,230 --> 00:29:05,220
Speaker 2: And so you're literally walking in his shadow, right? So

528
00:29:05,220 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 2: there's many different iterations of what it can look like

529
00:29:08,650 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 2: to

530
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 2: to walk within a father's shadow. But the important thing

531
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,170
Speaker 2: is that we, as men start to assimilate an understanding

532
00:29:19,180 --> 00:29:22,660
Speaker 2: of what is the shadow that my father has cast

533
00:29:22,670 --> 00:29:27,510
Speaker 2: into my life, physically, emotionally, psychologically. Like what does it

534
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,150
Speaker 2: actually look like?

535
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,660
Speaker 2: Is it just his absence? Is it abuse, Is it

536
00:29:33,670 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: um a volatility within anger? Is it a complete disconnection

537
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,219
Speaker 2: from anger? You know, some men have grown up witnessing

538
00:29:42,220 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 2: a father who was there all the time but was

539
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,530
Speaker 2: completely spineless, you know, had no real grounding, had no

540
00:29:48,530 --> 00:29:51,930
Speaker 2: real backing, wasn't able to stand up for himself.

541
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,990
Speaker 2: And so he got walked all over. So we need

542
00:29:54,990 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 2: to start to get a sense of what was the

543
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,970
Speaker 2: shadow that we have lived in so that we can

544
00:30:00,970 --> 00:30:03,930
Speaker 2: step out of it. And if we don't have that

545
00:30:03,940 --> 00:30:08,550
Speaker 2: then in some ways we will inevitably repeat or or

546
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,990
Speaker 2: oppose certain cycles to try and get closer to or

547
00:30:12,990 --> 00:30:15,020
Speaker 2: further away from our fathers and I don't want to

548
00:30:15,020 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 2: be like him, you know, because he was abusive or

549
00:30:17,650 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 2: God if I could just be like him, then my

550
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,940
Speaker 2: life would be complete, right? I could prove myself to

551
00:30:21,940 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 2: him

552
00:30:22,470 --> 00:30:24,740
Speaker 2: right? So we have to start to assimilate what that

553
00:30:24,740 --> 00:30:27,630
Speaker 2: looks like. Otherwise we're trapped, right? We're living a life

554
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,750
Speaker 2: based on him.

555
00:30:30,620 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: That was beautifully put. I think

556
00:30:33,850 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: all of that is really around awareness, right? Like we

557
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,110
Speaker 1: can't change what we don't know and we have to

558
00:30:40,110 --> 00:30:42,860
Speaker 1: look inward, we have to explore, we have to dig

559
00:30:42,860 --> 00:30:45,850
Speaker 1: into our past to understand how it's affecting us. If

560
00:30:45,850 --> 00:30:48,650
Speaker 1: we don't have that awareness, we can't grow and change.

561
00:30:48,650 --> 00:30:52,570
Speaker 1: We can't evolve, right? And awareness is actually,

562
00:30:54,180 --> 00:30:58,540
Speaker 1: it deserves more credit in a way. Like sometimes you

563
00:30:58,540 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: think like, well yeah, you know, you might know something

564
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:01,740
Speaker 1: but changing it,

565
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,610
Speaker 1: you know, is a lot harder. But actually the truth

566
00:31:05,610 --> 00:31:10,020
Speaker 1: is once you, once something becomes clear to you, the

567
00:31:10,030 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: change that's needed or the solution sometimes is just like

568
00:31:12,770 --> 00:31:15,010
Speaker 1: agonizingly present until until

569
00:31:15,010 --> 00:31:16,590
Speaker 2: you take that opportunity,

570
00:31:16,590 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: right? So, um,

571
00:31:19,300 --> 00:31:20,900
Speaker 1: yeah, I just want to emphasize that this kind of

572
00:31:20,900 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: like exploration can be scary. You know, I was on

573
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,130
Speaker 1: the phone with a friend this morning who was saying

574
00:31:27,130 --> 00:31:29,260
Speaker 1: to his dad, like dad, like we need counseling. We

575
00:31:29,260 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: need therapy as a family and it was over a

576
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,910
Speaker 1: conflict with an animal in the house fighting over and

577
00:31:36,910 --> 00:31:38,590
Speaker 1: his dad was like, I don't want to go to counseling.

578
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,260
Speaker 1: There's buried way too many things in there and I

579
00:31:41,260 --> 00:31:43,830
Speaker 1: do not want to let them out, you know, and

580
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,610
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people can relate to that mindset,

581
00:31:47,620 --> 00:31:48,190
Speaker 1: but

582
00:31:49,370 --> 00:31:51,710
Speaker 1: you gotta be willing to open the door and dust

583
00:31:51,710 --> 00:31:57,180
Speaker 1: off the cobwebs if you really want to transcend or

584
00:31:57,180 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: escape or grow beyond the shadow of the father, there

585
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:02,770
Speaker 1: was so much in

586
00:32:03,430 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: what you shared their that I resonated with

587
00:32:08,350 --> 00:32:10,670
Speaker 1: what I was feeling when you were talking about all

588
00:32:10,670 --> 00:32:13,690
Speaker 1: of the, the essence of what a father provides to

589
00:32:13,690 --> 00:32:16,660
Speaker 1: a a son or any Children is this sort of

590
00:32:16,660 --> 00:32:21,020
Speaker 1: like structure in the chaos, you know, and what you

591
00:32:21,020 --> 00:32:24,630
Speaker 1: were looking for from your father was some structure and

592
00:32:24,630 --> 00:32:26,940
Speaker 1: you were behaving chaotically

593
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:28,550
Speaker 1: and

594
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,350
Speaker 1: I think particularly as men as we grow up, that

595
00:32:32,350 --> 00:32:36,610
Speaker 1: is what we're looking for, we're looking for uh where

596
00:32:36,610 --> 00:32:41,100
Speaker 1: the edges, where the structures in our society and the

597
00:32:41,100 --> 00:32:45,530
Speaker 1: systems that were operating in and what, what are the

598
00:32:45,530 --> 00:32:48,900
Speaker 1: structures internally that I need to create in my life

599
00:32:48,900 --> 00:32:50,410
Speaker 1: and how do I do that so that I can

600
00:32:50,410 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: operate well in the world and thrive in the world.

601
00:32:54,330 --> 00:32:54,980
Speaker 2: Yeah,

602
00:32:55,540 --> 00:32:58,170
Speaker 2: yeah. Well said, you know, I think, I think in

603
00:32:58,170 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 2: many ways,

604
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,510
Speaker 2: you know, a father is there too,

605
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,540
Speaker 2: you know, again, I think a lot of, a lot

606
00:33:06,540 --> 00:33:10,110
Speaker 2: of research shows that a father is instrumental in helping

607
00:33:10,110 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 2: Children be able to take risks um quell rough and

608
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:15,230
Speaker 2: tumble play,

609
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:16,020
Speaker 1: like for

610
00:33:16,020 --> 00:33:19,130
Speaker 2: Example, like my son right now is 21 months old

611
00:33:19,140 --> 00:33:22,750
Speaker 2: and he started to get into this phase of testing boundaries,

612
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,540
Speaker 2: you know, like we have this, we

613
00:33:24,550 --> 00:33:27,820
Speaker 2: Have this £300 mirror on the wall and he thinks

614
00:33:27,820 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 2: it's funny to run up to it and not only

615
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 2: hit it, but try and put his hand behind the

616
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 2: mirror and pull the mirror off the wall, right? Or he's,

617
00:33:37,530 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 2: you know, or to scratch or to hit people in

618
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,420
Speaker 2: the face like these, these things are starting to happen, right?

619
00:33:43,430 --> 00:33:44,500
Speaker 2: And so

620
00:33:44,750 --> 00:33:50,890
Speaker 2: so fathers are instrumental in not only helping to helping

621
00:33:50,890 --> 00:33:54,180
Speaker 2: kids take some risks, but also helping them create some

622
00:33:54,190 --> 00:33:57,740
Speaker 2: order order within themselves in order around the house. So those,

623
00:33:57,740 --> 00:33:59,979
Speaker 2: those are pretty important pieces. Yeah,

624
00:34:01,510 --> 00:34:02,830
Speaker 1: yeah. And I think,

625
00:34:03,530 --> 00:34:09,330
Speaker 1: I think the connection between homelessness, deviant behavior, addiction and

626
00:34:09,340 --> 00:34:12,740
Speaker 1: absent fathers can't be overstated. You know, I've heard you

627
00:34:12,739 --> 00:34:18,380
Speaker 1: say this stuff before and I read Warren Farrell writing

628
00:34:18,380 --> 00:34:22,110
Speaker 1: about it in a very large book called the Boy Crisis,

629
00:34:22,110 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 1: which I recommend to all fathers particularly of boys and

630
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,810
Speaker 1: all parents of boys because warren really details the research

631
00:34:31,820 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 1: in there and

632
00:34:33,090 --> 00:34:36,810
Speaker 1: and some of the solutions that he proposes, um they're

633
00:34:36,810 --> 00:34:41,750
Speaker 1: really useful, but yeah, the the absence of the father

634
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:43,649
Speaker 1: is a serious

635
00:34:44,290 --> 00:34:47,259
Speaker 1: plight that we're dealing with in our society

636
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: and in some ways I feel like our generation and

637
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 1: the generation before us did have absent fathers, You know,

638
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,310
Speaker 1: in your case, your father was very far removed from

639
00:34:59,310 --> 00:35:04,129
Speaker 1: your home. In my case on the surface, people would

640
00:35:04,130 --> 00:35:06,750
Speaker 1: say like, what would you, what did you have to

641
00:35:06,750 --> 00:35:08,910
Speaker 1: complain about? Like your dad was a doctor

642
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,550
Speaker 1: and you were well provided for in your home. But

643
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,270
Speaker 1: my experience was in some of what you were describing

644
00:35:16,270 --> 00:35:18,989
Speaker 1: there where like my dad was away a lot. I

645
00:35:18,989 --> 00:35:21,420
Speaker 1: would almost describe him as a workaholic. He was very

646
00:35:21,420 --> 00:35:23,910
Speaker 1: dedicated to his work and he did great work. He

647
00:35:23,910 --> 00:35:26,509
Speaker 1: wasn't home a lot. I was primarily raised by my

648
00:35:26,510 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: mother and other um, women in the school system and

649
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:31,460
Speaker 1: my nanny,

650
00:35:32,020 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: My brother wasn't a safe person to be around. I

651
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,290
Speaker 1: had to hide at home. And then at school I

652
00:35:36,290 --> 00:35:38,780
Speaker 1: acted out in the same chaotic ways that you did.

653
00:35:38,780 --> 00:35:40,770
Speaker 1: I was getting kicked out of class all the time

654
00:35:40,770 --> 00:35:43,770
Speaker 1: and people were trying to manage my behavior and there

655
00:35:43,770 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 1: was something about my rebelling against uh feminine structures trying

656
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,090
Speaker 1: to come in and control me. Like I really didn't

657
00:35:53,090 --> 00:35:56,589
Speaker 1: take them seriously and you know, it sort of rung

658
00:35:56,590 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: a bell when you were talking about

659
00:35:58,670 --> 00:36:01,339
Speaker 1: what you were actually looking for was for your father

660
00:36:01,340 --> 00:36:05,180
Speaker 1: to step in and provide some real structure and some

661
00:36:05,180 --> 00:36:08,490
Speaker 1: real care and to really be there to to do

662
00:36:08,489 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 1: that for you and and you never got it. And

663
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,859
Speaker 1: I've heard that from multiple men who grew up with

664
00:36:13,860 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: their fathers in their house, you know, I have a

665
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,430
Speaker 1: friend who literally bombed his own house, you know, this guy,

666
00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: he's the guy that introduced me to you. He bombed

667
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,190
Speaker 1: his house. He built a bomb and exploded the side

668
00:36:25,190 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: of his house.

669
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,980
Speaker 1: Just looking for something from his dad.

670
00:36:29,989 --> 00:36:31,069
Speaker 2: And

671
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: and and his his dad actually took him down the

672
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,290
Speaker 1: street and had one of the neighbors discipline him and

673
00:36:39,290 --> 00:36:41,700
Speaker 1: give him a talking to because he didn't know how

674
00:36:41,700 --> 00:36:44,779
Speaker 1: to do it himself. Right. And so like I'm describing

675
00:36:45,610 --> 00:36:49,629
Speaker 1: all the different ways that yeah, fathers of previous generations

676
00:36:49,630 --> 00:36:53,430
Speaker 1: and even current generations are not being present for their

677
00:36:53,430 --> 00:36:54,190
Speaker 1: sons

678
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: and giving their sons the structure and the care that

679
00:36:58,570 --> 00:37:02,460
Speaker 1: that they really need. And here we are as adults

680
00:37:02,469 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: getting into men's work and there is something around,

681
00:37:07,500 --> 00:37:08,219
Speaker 1: men

682
00:37:09,130 --> 00:37:13,370
Speaker 1: are giving each other that thing in a men's group,

683
00:37:13,380 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: you know what I mean?

684
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,380
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's a, there's a father ring that happens

685
00:37:18,380 --> 00:37:21,620
Speaker 2: within a men's group and then there's a learning how

686
00:37:21,620 --> 00:37:25,710
Speaker 2: to father ourselves internally, you know, and, and I want,

687
00:37:25,710 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 2: I want to make one thing clear like this isn't

688
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,950
Speaker 2: to blame daddy, you know, that that's not that's not effective.

689
00:37:31,950 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 2: It's not to pass blame on on our fathers doesn't

690
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:39,899
Speaker 2: do anything, right? It's it's to be honest and transparent about,

691
00:37:39,910 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 2: about what we experience. I also think it's important to

692
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,069
Speaker 2: note that part of the role of the father is

693
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:50,399
Speaker 2: is to push the boundaries of how big or small

694
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 2: the world is, right? So in a lot of stories,

695
00:37:53,650 --> 00:37:56,540
Speaker 2: in a lot of myths, the father will leave and

696
00:37:56,540 --> 00:37:58,549
Speaker 2: come back. You know, the father will go away on

697
00:37:58,550 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: a trip and then come back.

698
00:38:01,630 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: So, you know, we it's not that we need to

699
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:07,570
Speaker 2: be in the house all the time, it's not that

700
00:38:07,570 --> 00:38:09,790
Speaker 2: we need to be around all the time. It's that

701
00:38:09,790 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: we need to be when we are there present and

702
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:17,110
Speaker 2: grounded and embodied and and be able to communicate um

703
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,170
Speaker 2: emotionally and and also rationally and logically, and and to

704
00:38:20,170 --> 00:38:23,500
Speaker 2: be able to set order and structure and to show

705
00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 2: that some things have consequences. You know, it sounds like

706
00:38:26,810 --> 00:38:30,050
Speaker 2: um you know what you're describing within your household in

707
00:38:30,050 --> 00:38:31,450
Speaker 2: some ways, it's like, well,

708
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,910
Speaker 2: you know, you're you needed protection from your brother, you know,

709
00:38:35,910 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 2: you didn't you didn't get that protection right from your brother.

710
00:38:38,730 --> 00:38:41,540
Speaker 2: And so it makes sense you got to act out

711
00:38:41,540 --> 00:38:44,650
Speaker 2: that way, right? Like in some ways, also it's like,

712
00:38:44,650 --> 00:38:47,100
Speaker 2: I I need somebody to step in to protect me.

713
00:38:47,110 --> 00:38:48,989
Speaker 2: And if they're not gonna do it, then I'm gonna,

714
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,900
Speaker 2: I'm gonna act out and and run amok and try

715
00:38:52,910 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 2: and assimilate away too

716
00:38:54,610 --> 00:38:58,760
Speaker 2: protect myself. You know, and we have all these maladaptive

717
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,010
Speaker 2: ways of protecting ourselves as kids, that's just the way

718
00:39:02,010 --> 00:39:05,259
Speaker 2: that it rolls unfortunately, right? It's like if people don't

719
00:39:05,260 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 2: teach us how to protect ourselves, we figure out how

720
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,250
Speaker 2: to protect ourselves. But oftentimes in maladaptive ways, I think

721
00:39:12,250 --> 00:39:13,740
Speaker 2: the last thing that I'll say is,

722
00:39:15,510 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 2: you know, we we talked we touched a little bit

723
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,610
Speaker 2: on on addiction. I know that a huge amount of

724
00:39:19,610 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 2: your work is in that field and I love that

725
00:39:22,050 --> 00:39:24,170
Speaker 2: love that you're doing that specifically with men.

726
00:39:24,690 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 2: Um a mentor of mine, Dewey Freeman talks about how he,

727
00:39:29,610 --> 00:39:33,180
Speaker 2: you know, he talks about how addiction is an attachment issue.

728
00:39:33,190 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 2: So oftentimes when we don't learn how to attach properly

729
00:39:37,410 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 2: or build a relationship properly as young boys, especially to

730
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 2: our fathers, then we attached to some other substance, right?

731
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,900
Speaker 2: We attached to alcohol or porn or drugs or

732
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,489
Speaker 2: you know, whatever, whatever it is, gambling, etcetera. And that

733
00:39:52,489 --> 00:39:57,100
Speaker 2: that becomes our our sort of version of a secure attachment, right?

734
00:39:57,100 --> 00:40:00,370
Speaker 2: It becomes our our way of feeling safe in the world.

735
00:40:00,380 --> 00:40:02,830
Speaker 2: And that's why, you know, you have somebody like that

736
00:40:02,830 --> 00:40:06,969
Speaker 2: says that addiction is giving up everything for one thing, right?

737
00:40:06,969 --> 00:40:10,189
Speaker 2: It's because we've built an attachment with that addict with

738
00:40:10,190 --> 00:40:14,219
Speaker 2: that addiction with that substance or that object. So, you know,

739
00:40:14,219 --> 00:40:17,500
Speaker 2: it's it's incredibly important that we

740
00:40:17,850 --> 00:40:20,629
Speaker 2: that we just we look at that relationship to dad

741
00:40:20,630 --> 00:40:22,100
Speaker 2: and I don't want to spend too too much time

742
00:40:22,100 --> 00:40:23,770
Speaker 2: on this because I feel like we've, you know, we've

743
00:40:23,770 --> 00:40:27,310
Speaker 2: like we've done a good job of of um maybe

744
00:40:27,310 --> 00:40:28,410
Speaker 2: talking about

745
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 2: why this is relevant, but for me in all the

746
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,710
Speaker 2: work that I've done a man's relationship to his father

747
00:40:36,710 --> 00:40:40,180
Speaker 2: is paramount. And it's why I opened the book in

748
00:40:40,180 --> 00:40:44,340
Speaker 2: the first couple of chapters with talking about that because

749
00:40:44,350 --> 00:40:46,230
Speaker 2: with all the men that I've worked with, whether they've

750
00:40:46,230 --> 00:40:51,169
Speaker 2: been NFL players or rock stars or rappers or you know,

751
00:40:51,170 --> 00:40:54,510
Speaker 2: guys like me that worked construction for a few years

752
00:40:54,510 --> 00:40:57,580
Speaker 2: and and didn't go to university after high school,

753
00:40:58,030 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 2: all of them have had some sort of relationship with

754
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 2: their father where it's not reconciled and what they're really

755
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 2: dealing with is I don't know how to be a

756
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,650
Speaker 2: man in the world, when the man that brought me

757
00:41:14,660 --> 00:41:17,750
Speaker 2: into the world, I have a tumultuous relationship with like

758
00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:20,530
Speaker 2: how the funk am I actually supposed to go do that? Right?

759
00:41:20,530 --> 00:41:22,290
Speaker 2: And so I think that's what a lot of men

760
00:41:22,290 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 2: are grappling with, How do I be my own man.

761
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 2: I'm inheriting my father's company,

762
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:30,180
Speaker 2: that's worth however many millions of dollars or I'm, you know,

763
00:41:30,180 --> 00:41:32,690
Speaker 2: I'm trying to prove to my dad that I'm a

764
00:41:32,690 --> 00:41:35,760
Speaker 2: good enough doctor or lawyer. You know, it's like, well

765
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,290
Speaker 2: how are you being your own man when you're living

766
00:41:38,290 --> 00:41:42,180
Speaker 2: your life for another man whether or not he's given

767
00:41:42,180 --> 00:41:44,299
Speaker 2: you his approval or not. So it's it's an

768
00:41:44,500 --> 00:41:49,250
Speaker 2: incredibly important relationship to excavate and and begin to heal

769
00:41:49,250 --> 00:41:52,050
Speaker 2: begin to let go of some of those things, but

770
00:41:52,050 --> 00:41:54,510
Speaker 2: like you said, awareness is key and I would just

771
00:41:54,510 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 2: emphasize that by, by finishing this off and saying, you

772
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,110
Speaker 2: know Young said that the first step in any therapeutic

773
00:42:01,110 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 2: process is confession and so we have to be willing

774
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:09,460
Speaker 2: to to see what the truth is of what we're

775
00:42:09,460 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 2: experiencing and admit it,

776
00:42:11,510 --> 00:42:15,420
Speaker 2: you know, and admit that we have been hurt by

777
00:42:15,420 --> 00:42:17,850
Speaker 2: our father or we've been chasing after his affection and

778
00:42:17,850 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 2: attention or admit that we're really fucking angry at him

779
00:42:21,570 --> 00:42:24,250
Speaker 2: and and we actually don't respect him, you know, we

780
00:42:24,250 --> 00:42:27,350
Speaker 2: have to confess and admit those things otherwise we cannot

781
00:42:27,350 --> 00:42:31,430
Speaker 2: work with them at all. Like we just can't go anywhere.

782
00:42:32,270 --> 00:42:35,009
Speaker 1: Yeah, that that's I'm glad you finished with that because

783
00:42:35,020 --> 00:42:37,450
Speaker 1: um I was going to ask a question to wrap

784
00:42:37,450 --> 00:42:41,140
Speaker 1: this up, which is like, okay, I get that you're

785
00:42:41,140 --> 00:42:43,089
Speaker 1: saying we got to do that work and there might

786
00:42:43,090 --> 00:42:45,820
Speaker 1: be some objections around that, you know, like, well what

787
00:42:45,820 --> 00:42:47,650
Speaker 1: if my dad's dead or he's long gone or he's

788
00:42:47,650 --> 00:42:52,739
Speaker 1: not around anymore. I'm not a kid anymore. What's the use?

789
00:42:52,739 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: And I think we've kind of addressed that objection like

790
00:42:55,170 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: there is a use because no matter what this stuff

791
00:42:59,130 --> 00:43:00,650
Speaker 1: affects how you,

792
00:43:00,989 --> 00:43:04,190
Speaker 1: how you be as a man, you know how you

793
00:43:04,190 --> 00:43:06,509
Speaker 1: are as a man, how you step into your power

794
00:43:07,270 --> 00:43:13,350
Speaker 1: is very much related to your original experience of power

795
00:43:13,350 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: and structure and the masculine figure, right. Um but the

796
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,500
Speaker 1: last question I was gonna ask was really around like,

797
00:43:21,850 --> 00:43:24,710
Speaker 1: what do people, how do guys do this work Connor?

798
00:43:24,710 --> 00:43:27,730
Speaker 1: Like where do they go, what, how do you become

799
00:43:27,730 --> 00:43:30,469
Speaker 1: aware and like where do you confess? You know, what

800
00:43:30,469 --> 00:43:34,420
Speaker 1: does the work look like from a summarized perspective?

801
00:43:35,610 --> 00:43:40,739
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean a very simple most men already know,

802
00:43:40,750 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 2: like most men already know if you, if they're really

803
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 2: honest with themselves in the quiet moments at home, you know,

804
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,300
Speaker 2: when the tv is not on or when they're out

805
00:43:50,300 --> 00:43:53,580
Speaker 2: walking in nature and they just ask themselves what is

806
00:43:53,580 --> 00:43:57,420
Speaker 2: the truth about my relationship with my father? They know

807
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,270
Speaker 2: they know what their relationship is to their dad, They

808
00:44:00,270 --> 00:44:03,450
Speaker 2: know that there's something missing or that they've been chasing

809
00:44:03,450 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: after something or that they, they've never felt close and

810
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 2: loved or connected or they've never felt protected or whatever the,

811
00:44:09,690 --> 00:44:11,850
Speaker 2: whatever the truth is for that individual man. But they

812
00:44:11,850 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 2: know and

813
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,390
Speaker 2: the hard part is admitting that truth, that they already

814
00:44:17,390 --> 00:44:17,859
Speaker 2: know

815
00:44:18,150 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 2: what I would say to. The latter part of your

816
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,820
Speaker 2: question is you need, you probably need to find some

817
00:44:22,820 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 2: form of men's group, right? Whether that's the brotherhood that,

818
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:28,930
Speaker 2: that you run, I know you guys rebranded, it's not

819
00:44:28,930 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 2: called samurai anymore, right? It's called

820
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:32,020
Speaker 1: a k

821
00:44:32,030 --> 00:44:37,089
Speaker 2: right Arca or the alliance or the nation. I mean there's,

822
00:44:37,090 --> 00:44:40,580
Speaker 2: there's tons out there. There's an organization called every man

823
00:44:40,590 --> 00:44:44,090
Speaker 2: um you know, find one that works for you

824
00:44:44,650 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 2: and then and then stick with it and do the

825
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:51,770
Speaker 2: work to uh, to talk about your relationship with your

826
00:44:51,770 --> 00:44:57,690
Speaker 2: father with other men who have gone through that initiation before,

827
00:44:57,700 --> 00:45:01,140
Speaker 2: that have gone through that transition before. And the the

828
00:45:01,140 --> 00:45:03,970
Speaker 2: reason why we have to do that with other men

829
00:45:03,980 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 2: is

830
00:45:07,989 --> 00:45:11,049
Speaker 2: it's, I mean, it's hard to sort of put this

831
00:45:11,050 --> 00:45:16,020
Speaker 2: any other way than grief needs to be witnessed period,

832
00:45:16,030 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 2: you know, it just needs to be witnessed and you

833
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:24,530
Speaker 2: as a man, your unwillingness, grief, you know, your pain.

834
00:45:24,540 --> 00:45:27,330
Speaker 2: It's like the first sentence in the book is a

835
00:45:27,330 --> 00:45:28,830
Speaker 2: man's work begins in pain

836
00:45:29,290 --> 00:45:33,790
Speaker 2: because your relationship to pain as a man is incredibly important.

837
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:35,819
Speaker 2: Do you hide it? Do you try and numb it out?

838
00:45:35,820 --> 00:45:38,049
Speaker 2: Do you stuff it down? Do you pretend like it's

839
00:45:38,050 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 2: not there? Do you act overly confident to, to uh,

840
00:45:42,570 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 2: to sort of fake, like you're like, you're not hurting,

841
00:45:45,450 --> 00:45:48,140
Speaker 2: you know, your relationship to pain is incredibly important and

842
00:45:48,140 --> 00:45:50,350
Speaker 2: so we need to be able to get around other

843
00:45:50,350 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 2: men to have these conversations too

844
00:45:53,930 --> 00:46:00,510
Speaker 2: learn that it's safe for us to be honest around

845
00:46:00,510 --> 00:46:05,430
Speaker 2: other men, to be transparent, to be real, to be vulnerable, right?

846
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 2: And and to not have that,

847
00:46:09,370 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 2: whether it's our perceived weaknesses or vulnerabilities or our grief

848
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,670
Speaker 2: or sadness or whatever it is be criticized or judged

849
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,509
Speaker 2: or whatever, you know, what have you? Because that's what

850
00:46:19,510 --> 00:46:21,900
Speaker 2: we're used to, right? That's that's what many of us

851
00:46:21,900 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 2: have grown up in. So we have to be willing

852
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,989
Speaker 2: to walk through the fire of bringing our grief to

853
00:46:26,989 --> 00:46:29,580
Speaker 2: other men and saying, you know, this is what I've

854
00:46:29,590 --> 00:46:33,570
Speaker 2: been carrying because all men carry a kind of intensity

855
00:46:33,570 --> 00:46:35,610
Speaker 2: within them that they don't know how to deal with.

856
00:46:35,620 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 2: Whether that's the intensity of the anger towards the parent

857
00:46:39,310 --> 00:46:43,070
Speaker 2: or the intensity of a sexual desire or the intensity

858
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,980
Speaker 2: of a sadness and a depression or grief or anxiety

859
00:46:47,989 --> 00:46:51,300
Speaker 2: that they just do not know how to carry. And

860
00:46:51,300 --> 00:46:54,410
Speaker 2: no other man has taught them how to bear that.

861
00:46:54,420 --> 00:46:57,690
Speaker 2: And that is, that's a, that's a fucking problem in

862
00:46:57,690 --> 00:47:00,760
Speaker 2: our world. You know what? It makes me, it really

863
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:01,540
Speaker 2: moves me

864
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 2: because that's what men's work is really about is banding

865
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,310
Speaker 2: together and saying, hey brother, I see that you don't

866
00:47:08,310 --> 00:47:11,990
Speaker 2: know how to carry that. I've learned how to carry that.

867
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,810
Speaker 2: Let me help you, why you learn, you know, and

868
00:47:14,810 --> 00:47:17,770
Speaker 2: if I can support you in any way, then I will.

869
00:47:17,780 --> 00:47:21,010
Speaker 2: And that's, that's a gift because in doing that, we

870
00:47:21,010 --> 00:47:23,580
Speaker 2: heal our relationship to men in the masculine,

871
00:47:23,780 --> 00:47:27,250
Speaker 2: you know, and that so many men are suffering because

872
00:47:27,250 --> 00:47:30,770
Speaker 2: they do not have a good relationship to the masculine

873
00:47:30,780 --> 00:47:34,860
Speaker 2: or to other men and their they feel deprived really.

874
00:47:34,870 --> 00:47:35,859
Speaker 2: So

875
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:38,370
Speaker 1: yeah,

876
00:47:38,380 --> 00:47:38,700
Speaker 2: that was

877
00:47:38,700 --> 00:47:42,100
Speaker 1: so good. That was so good. Yeah, there's, there is

878
00:47:42,100 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: a perspective that if we, if we bring our real

879
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 1: shipped to other people, this is very north american, right?

880
00:47:49,690 --> 00:47:53,620
Speaker 1: Because we're very individualistic, live in the suburbs. Keep to yourself.

881
00:47:53,630 --> 00:47:57,390
Speaker 1: Everybody has their own lawnmower. Nobody shares anything. You know,

882
00:47:57,390 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 1: there's this very individualistic thing going on superficiality. And so

883
00:48:02,410 --> 00:48:05,629
Speaker 1: if you bring your stuff

884
00:48:05,770 --> 00:48:10,310
Speaker 1: to someone else, you are burdening them with it. You're

885
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:11,859
Speaker 1: laying it upon them

886
00:48:12,590 --> 00:48:14,089
Speaker 1: and you don't want to do that. I don't want

887
00:48:14,090 --> 00:48:16,310
Speaker 1: to burden you with my stuff. And

888
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:22,150
Speaker 1: unfortunately, the side effect of that is that your stuff

889
00:48:22,150 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: that needs to be processed, that needs to be cleaned

890
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 1: your hungry ghost, your pain, your father projections pops out

891
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,430
Speaker 1: sideways in the world and it pops out in the

892
00:48:31,430 --> 00:48:34,730
Speaker 1: ways that you sabotaged, that you lash out at other people,

893
00:48:34,730 --> 00:48:36,930
Speaker 1: that you don't live up to your potential because you

894
00:48:36,930 --> 00:48:40,760
Speaker 1: don't fully believe in yourself. There's there's 100 different ways

895
00:48:40,770 --> 00:48:43,580
Speaker 1: that this pops out and in the worst cases it's

896
00:48:43,590 --> 00:48:47,250
Speaker 1: it's violence and crime and what have you

897
00:48:49,370 --> 00:48:53,900
Speaker 1: all that to say that like when I'm in a circle, uh,

898
00:48:53,910 --> 00:48:57,380
Speaker 1: secure circle with a group of guys and somebody brings

899
00:48:57,380 --> 00:48:59,350
Speaker 1: some really real heavy shit.

900
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:04,259
Speaker 1: We're all saying thank you afterwards, after we've held him

901
00:49:04,260 --> 00:49:06,610
Speaker 1: through it and supported him through all whatever he needed

902
00:49:06,610 --> 00:49:09,090
Speaker 1: to feel and moved out the other side were like,

903
00:49:09,100 --> 00:49:12,540
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for bringing that here. Thank you

904
00:49:12,540 --> 00:49:14,550
Speaker 1: for dropping that into this circle so that we could

905
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,710
Speaker 1: cleanse it, clean it. And so that you don't have

906
00:49:17,710 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: to bring that out into the world sideways, right? And

907
00:49:22,210 --> 00:49:26,770
Speaker 1: the group gets tighter. There's this and it's not like

908
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:29,730
Speaker 1: that response

909
00:49:31,219 --> 00:49:37,270
Speaker 1: is instinctual, it's like natural, it's counter to our current culture.

910
00:49:37,290 --> 00:49:40,669
Speaker 1: But when men feel it and they experience realness from

911
00:49:40,670 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: each other,

912
00:49:42,410 --> 00:49:47,270
Speaker 1: they automatically know this is more true than what my

913
00:49:47,270 --> 00:49:50,219
Speaker 1: society has taught me about what it means to like

914
00:49:50,230 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: bring your stuff, bring your ugly truth, your shadow, your sadness,

915
00:49:55,600 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 1: your grief, your pain to other people. This is actually

916
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:00,529
Speaker 1: what

917
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:05,260
Speaker 1: we're meant to do with this, you know, and um,

918
00:50:05,850 --> 00:50:09,130
Speaker 1: in the show, the work, you know, the, the documentary,

919
00:50:09,130 --> 00:50:11,150
Speaker 1: the work you see that you see these guys who

920
00:50:11,150 --> 00:50:14,790
Speaker 1: are in jail for murder and heinous crimes and they're

921
00:50:14,790 --> 00:50:19,110
Speaker 1: coming into this space and doing like really deep work

922
00:50:19,110 --> 00:50:22,350
Speaker 1: with each other and screaming and pushing and crying and

923
00:50:23,190 --> 00:50:24,089
Speaker 1: they're cleaning,

924
00:50:24,770 --> 00:50:28,310
Speaker 1: they're cleaning together and they all kind of instinctually know

925
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,470
Speaker 1: what they're doing in there and that they're going to

926
00:50:30,469 --> 00:50:37,210
Speaker 1: walk out of there lighter, more integrated, more aware, more um,

927
00:50:38,530 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 1: I don't know if enlightened is the right word, but

928
00:50:40,290 --> 00:50:42,469
Speaker 1: definitely more aware of

929
00:50:43,340 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 1: themselves and more secure in who they are, less uh,

930
00:50:48,010 --> 00:50:51,540
Speaker 1: projections happening, you know, or to other people and, and

931
00:50:51,540 --> 00:50:54,850
Speaker 1: carrying less of those wounds, you know, they've like left

932
00:50:54,850 --> 00:50:58,570
Speaker 1: some of it there. So, um, yeah, I just want

933
00:50:58,570 --> 00:50:59,810
Speaker 1: to mirror what

934
00:51:00,570 --> 00:51:02,980
Speaker 1: you were sharing their about like get find a space

935
00:51:02,980 --> 00:51:05,549
Speaker 1: where you can come in and bring that and know

936
00:51:05,550 --> 00:51:08,489
Speaker 1: that you're the part of your mind that is like,

937
00:51:08,500 --> 00:51:10,840
Speaker 1: oh no, I shouldn't bring this to people, like it's

938
00:51:10,850 --> 00:51:15,330
Speaker 1: not worth the energy or nobody wants to hear my pain. No,

939
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: that's not true. There are guys that want to support

940
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:25,009
Speaker 1: you and hold you in whatever you're going through so

941
00:51:25,010 --> 00:51:26,550
Speaker 1: that you can be a better man in the world.

942
00:51:27,670 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, like in the book, I

943
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:33,260
Speaker 2: talk about something that I call the myth of male suppression,

944
00:51:33,270 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 2: which is that we and I don't in time, I mean,

945
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:38,970
Speaker 2: I have some guesses of where this has come from,

946
00:51:38,980 --> 00:51:44,270
Speaker 2: but in male culture, we've bought into this notion that

947
00:51:44,270 --> 00:51:45,810
Speaker 2: there's strength and suppression

948
00:51:46,330 --> 00:51:48,760
Speaker 2: so that if if you are a man who is

949
00:51:48,770 --> 00:51:52,839
Speaker 2: feeling something or experiencing something that you don't want to experience,

950
00:51:52,850 --> 00:51:57,270
Speaker 2: then you're stronger for just shoving it down. You know,

951
00:51:57,270 --> 00:52:00,420
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, you're angry, ignore that or you're sad,

952
00:52:00,430 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 2: push that down, You're feeling anxious light a joint, you know,

953
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,300
Speaker 2: like fucking get that sh it away from you

954
00:52:07,610 --> 00:52:12,830
Speaker 2: and that, that, you know, if you read any psychological literature,

955
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,110
Speaker 2: if you read any spiritual literature, what you will find

956
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,490
Speaker 2: is everybody yelling at the top of their lungs saying,

957
00:52:18,500 --> 00:52:21,569
Speaker 2: don't whatever you do, don't do that, you know, just

958
00:52:21,570 --> 00:52:24,339
Speaker 2: don't push it down because when you do that, you

959
00:52:24,340 --> 00:52:26,580
Speaker 2: actually create more of it, you know, and it creates

960
00:52:26,580 --> 00:52:29,140
Speaker 2: more of a more of a challenge within your more

961
00:52:29,140 --> 00:52:31,330
Speaker 2: of a problem within you. So,

962
00:52:32,140 --> 00:52:35,760
Speaker 2: um and and that is what creates the shadow, right?

963
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:37,620
Speaker 2: That's what creates the shadow. So the more that we

964
00:52:37,620 --> 00:52:43,100
Speaker 2: suppress our anger, our sadness, our fears, our frustrations, you know,

965
00:52:43,100 --> 00:52:46,469
Speaker 2: our desires, our wants, the more that we push those

966
00:52:46,469 --> 00:52:49,630
Speaker 2: things down, it doesn't actually make us stronger. It actually

967
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:52,359
Speaker 2: weakens us and emboldens our show.

968
00:52:52,850 --> 00:52:55,790
Speaker 2: So it actually emboldens the part of us that is

969
00:52:55,790 --> 00:52:59,609
Speaker 2: wanting to sabotage, that is designed to get in the

970
00:52:59,610 --> 00:53:02,569
Speaker 2: way of our lives. Right? Young said that the that

971
00:53:02,570 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 2: the shadow creates an unconscious snag that words are most

972
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:10,379
Speaker 2: well meaning intentions. So it literally is, it's like literally

973
00:53:10,380 --> 00:53:12,590
Speaker 2: writing a death sentence for

974
00:53:12,610 --> 00:53:16,830
Speaker 2: goals, you know? And on our aims. So suppression is

975
00:53:16,830 --> 00:53:20,390
Speaker 2: not a strength, right? Pushing these things down, ignoring what

976
00:53:20,390 --> 00:53:24,469
Speaker 2: we're going through, ignoring where we're unhappy ignoring what isn't

977
00:53:24,469 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 2: working for us and the boundaries that we aren't setting

978
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:30,870
Speaker 2: and ignoring our desires and our needs, Those things are

979
00:53:30,870 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 2: literally crushing us. And so our work is to

980
00:53:35,510 --> 00:53:39,580
Speaker 2: to start to move in the direction of owning what

981
00:53:39,580 --> 00:53:43,240
Speaker 2: those things are admitting when we're angry, right? How many

982
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,580
Speaker 2: times I remember in my in my past,

983
00:53:45,940 --> 00:53:49,430
Speaker 2: uh we know where I'd be in conflict and argument

984
00:53:49,430 --> 00:53:52,320
Speaker 2: with a partner and you're like, you're like, why are

985
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:57,029
Speaker 2: you so upset? And like, I'm not angry, you're you're upset, right?

986
00:53:57,030 --> 00:54:00,339
Speaker 2: So it's like but so ownership over it's like yeah,

987
00:54:00,340 --> 00:54:02,899
Speaker 2: you know what I am angry and, and maybe I'm

988
00:54:02,900 --> 00:54:07,850
Speaker 2: not in this seat of uh, not control, but, but

989
00:54:07,860 --> 00:54:10,990
Speaker 2: I'm not capturing this, this anger in a healthy way.

990
00:54:10,989 --> 00:54:11,950
Speaker 2: So I need to pause

991
00:54:12,140 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 2: right now. Um, but so we need to be able

992
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:20,170
Speaker 2: to reject this notion that there's strength in suppression because

993
00:54:20,170 --> 00:54:23,750
Speaker 2: it just, it fundamentally doesn't work. And so many men

994
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:28,310
Speaker 2: have bought into this idea to such a degree that

995
00:54:28,310 --> 00:54:30,810
Speaker 2: they think that the only way that things can change

996
00:54:30,820 --> 00:54:32,150
Speaker 2: is when they hit a rock bottom,

997
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:34,580
Speaker 2: you know, and that's why I started the book, the

998
00:54:34,580 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 2: way that I started it with my story, living out

999
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:38,670
Speaker 2: of the back of my car and, and what I

1000
00:54:38,670 --> 00:54:42,350
Speaker 2: called chateau walmart, right? Because I had, I had done that,

1001
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:44,860
Speaker 2: I had suppressed to such a degree for such a

1002
00:54:44,860 --> 00:54:47,970
Speaker 2: long time. Everything that I felt everything that I wanted,

1003
00:54:48,150 --> 00:54:50,850
Speaker 2: that it led me to this place of rock bottom

1004
00:54:50,850 --> 00:54:54,330
Speaker 2: because I just fundamentally believed I can't change and nothing

1005
00:54:54,340 --> 00:54:57,299
Speaker 2: in my life will change until I just blow it

1006
00:54:57,300 --> 00:54:59,690
Speaker 2: all up until I bought them out and then maybe

1007
00:54:59,690 --> 00:55:03,110
Speaker 2: I'll have a chance. And I'm shocked at how many

1008
00:55:03,110 --> 00:55:06,340
Speaker 2: men have bought into that same notion. Nothing will change

1009
00:55:06,350 --> 00:55:07,779
Speaker 2: until I hit bottom.

1010
00:55:09,410 --> 00:55:11,270
Speaker 1: Yeah, very well said, I think

1011
00:55:12,350 --> 00:55:15,580
Speaker 1: if I could loop in addiction and

1012
00:55:16,810 --> 00:55:20,460
Speaker 1: um the 12 steps because you're talking about rock bottom,

1013
00:55:20,460 --> 00:55:22,740
Speaker 1: you know, and they say like an addict will only

1014
00:55:22,739 --> 00:55:25,790
Speaker 1: clean up until they, once they hit rock bottom. But

1015
00:55:25,790 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: if you read what's called the 12 by 12, it's

1016
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:31,610
Speaker 1: this like longer description of the 12 steps in the

1017
00:55:31,610 --> 00:55:35,450
Speaker 1: first step, they address this issue where like, yeah, does

1018
00:55:35,450 --> 00:55:39,610
Speaker 1: everybody have to end up in chateau walmart? You know,

1019
00:55:39,620 --> 00:55:41,380
Speaker 1: basically on the street

1020
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:43,890
Speaker 1: loot lost everything?

1021
00:55:44,550 --> 00:55:47,980
Speaker 1: Uh or is there an alternative, you know? And what

1022
00:55:47,980 --> 00:55:50,670
Speaker 1: they talk about is is that it's actually possible to

1023
00:55:50,670 --> 00:55:52,940
Speaker 1: raise someone's bottom so that it hits them in the

1024
00:55:52,940 --> 00:55:53,580
Speaker 1: face

1025
00:55:53,989 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 1: and you can do that, It happens via awareness, It

1026
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 1: happens via waking up to the reality of your life

1027
00:56:04,170 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 1: and seeing how bad things are because that's essentially what

1028
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:09,819
Speaker 1: happened for you was like, yeah, you were backed into

1029
00:56:09,820 --> 00:56:12,750
Speaker 1: a corner, like you, you either had to like die

1030
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:17,710
Speaker 1: or change your life, but that was an awareness and

1031
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:20,540
Speaker 1: something that was very real for you in the moment

1032
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:24,370
Speaker 1: that made you take those actions and so

1033
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:31,569
Speaker 1: if a guy has sufficient awareness and and an opening

1034
00:56:31,580 --> 00:56:34,580
Speaker 1: to wanting to wake up,

1035
00:56:35,770 --> 00:56:37,670
Speaker 1: that is really all a guy needs, and then he

1036
00:56:37,670 --> 00:56:40,940
Speaker 1: needs to pick up the tools, take the course, join

1037
00:56:40,940 --> 00:56:43,509
Speaker 1: the men's group and start doing the work. You don't

1038
00:56:43,510 --> 00:56:46,530
Speaker 1: have to be at rock bottom in your life to change,

1039
00:56:46,540 --> 00:56:49,470
Speaker 1: but you do need to be willing to look, you

1040
00:56:49,469 --> 00:56:51,469
Speaker 1: need to be willing to wake up, you need to

1041
00:56:51,469 --> 00:56:52,980
Speaker 1: be willing to be wrong about

1042
00:56:53,690 --> 00:56:57,230
Speaker 1: yourself, how you see the world you maybe need to

1043
00:56:57,230 --> 00:56:59,730
Speaker 1: be wrong about, how you're a victim of it all

1044
00:56:59,739 --> 00:57:02,609
Speaker 1: and how you might be creating some of your own

1045
00:57:02,610 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: reality unconsciously.

1046
00:57:04,670 --> 00:57:11,050
Speaker 1: And um that requires um just stepping in opening the book,

1047
00:57:11,060 --> 00:57:14,380
Speaker 1: buying Connor's book, right?

1048
00:57:15,550 --> 00:57:17,630
Speaker 2: Yeah,

1049
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:18,700
Speaker 1: insert plug.

1050
00:57:19,710 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 1: So we really dug well into the shadow of the

1051
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:24,450
Speaker 1: father

1052
00:57:25,340 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 1: And we've killed like 40 minutes on that. That was

1053
00:57:29,730 --> 00:57:31,170
Speaker 1: that was solid. So I think we're only going to

1054
00:57:31,170 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 1: get through to topics on this entire show, man.

1055
00:57:34,090 --> 00:57:36,820
Speaker 1: Um but I really wanted to talk to you about

1056
00:57:36,830 --> 00:57:41,980
Speaker 1: infidelity and porn. That's another chapter in your book. And

1057
00:57:41,990 --> 00:57:44,470
Speaker 1: it's not something I've talked about very much on this

1058
00:57:44,470 --> 00:57:45,490
Speaker 1: show and it's

1059
00:57:46,140 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: you know, you're one of the guys I would want

1060
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:50,980
Speaker 1: to have on to talk about this because

1061
00:57:50,990 --> 00:57:52,530
Speaker 2: why is that, Ben?

1062
00:57:53,590 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 2: Let's

1063
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:56,510
Speaker 1: just say you have dug dug into the subject matter

1064
00:57:56,510 --> 00:57:58,830
Speaker 1: a lot and I think you've worked a lot around this. So,

1065
00:57:58,830 --> 00:58:01,150
Speaker 1: I'd like to hear what you have to say about

1066
00:58:01,150 --> 00:58:05,410
Speaker 1: infidelity and its connection with porn and and how you

1067
00:58:05,410 --> 00:58:09,970
Speaker 1: see porn and you know what men need to watch

1068
00:58:09,970 --> 00:58:11,770
Speaker 1: out for in this space.

1069
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:17,820
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I mean, the Infidelity one is a big one,

1070
00:58:17,820 --> 00:58:20,140
Speaker 2: the porn one's a big one, I'll do what I

1071
00:58:20,140 --> 00:58:23,290
Speaker 2: can I think, you know, just so that everybody knows

1072
00:58:23,300 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 2: like I talked about in the book, but I mean

1073
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:27,990
Speaker 2: I cheated in pretty much every relationship that I was in.

1074
00:58:28,570 --> 00:58:34,140
Speaker 2: And so infidelity was a really big challenge for me

1075
00:58:34,150 --> 00:58:35,850
Speaker 2: because I had

1076
00:58:36,370 --> 00:58:37,020
Speaker 2: um

1077
00:58:38,090 --> 00:58:38,270
Speaker 1: you

1078
00:58:38,270 --> 00:58:39,830
Speaker 2: know, in a lot of ways I put a lot

1079
00:58:39,830 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 2: of my validation on who I was sexually and so

1080
00:58:43,330 --> 00:58:46,510
Speaker 2: getting women's attention was a huge thing for me. And

1081
00:58:46,510 --> 00:58:48,510
Speaker 2: it's where I got a lot of validation, it's where

1082
00:58:48,510 --> 00:58:50,250
Speaker 2: I got a lot of confidence. That's where I got

1083
00:58:50,250 --> 00:58:54,210
Speaker 2: a lot of self worth from. And and it became

1084
00:58:54,210 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 2: something that was exciting, but it was also something where

1085
00:59:01,050 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 2: I had,

1086
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:06,570
Speaker 2: like, compartmentalized women unintentionally into these like, two categories. There

1087
00:59:06,570 --> 00:59:08,210
Speaker 2: was the women that I would date and there was

1088
00:59:08,210 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 2: the woman that I wouldn't date, but I would suck.

1089
00:59:10,090 --> 00:59:12,810
Speaker 2: And what would inevitably happen is that I would get

1090
00:59:12,810 --> 00:59:15,070
Speaker 2: into a relationship with a woman that I really deeply

1091
00:59:15,070 --> 00:59:18,970
Speaker 2: loved and cared about, but I found that I was

1092
00:59:18,980 --> 00:59:22,790
Speaker 2: I was struggling to bring my full sexual self to her.

1093
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:25,710
Speaker 2: And so inevitably what would happen is after a certain

1094
00:59:25,710 --> 00:59:28,450
Speaker 2: period of time, I would come across a woman or

1095
00:59:28,450 --> 00:59:29,370
Speaker 2: search out a woman

1096
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:32,460
Speaker 2: that I just wanted sexually didn't want to be in

1097
00:59:32,460 --> 00:59:36,420
Speaker 2: a relationship with her or anything like that. And I

1098
00:59:36,420 --> 00:59:39,410
Speaker 2: think just in tandem with this, it sort of goes

1099
00:59:39,410 --> 00:59:41,770
Speaker 2: alongside of it alongside it

1100
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:46,750
Speaker 2: is the fact that, you know, I had always struggled

1101
00:59:46,750 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 2: with pornography and I found it as a kid, you know,

1102
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:52,630
Speaker 2: I was like 13, 14 years old, back in the

1103
00:59:52,630 --> 00:59:54,390
Speaker 2: day when I was dial up internet you know and

1104
00:59:54,390 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 2: so you line by line boobies yeah,

1105
00:59:58,640 --> 00:59:58,990
Speaker 1: they're

1106
00:59:59,050 --> 01:00:02,490
Speaker 2: there for a long period of time waiting for you

1107
01:00:02,490 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 2: know a photo load. Um and it became something

1108
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,220
Speaker 2: that unbeknownst to me and this is what I talk

1109
01:00:11,220 --> 01:00:16,260
Speaker 2: a lot about today, it became something that I unintentionally

1110
01:00:16,260 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 2: would use to regulate my nervous system. So when I

1111
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,390
Speaker 2: was stressed I would watch porn when I was anxious,

1112
01:00:22,390 --> 01:00:23,830
Speaker 2: I would watch it when I was angry, I would

1113
01:00:23,830 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 2: watch it when I felt disconnected or alone in my relationship,

1114
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:31,980
Speaker 2: I would watch it. And so it became something that

1115
01:00:32,650 --> 01:00:33,070
Speaker 1: when

1116
01:00:33,070 --> 01:00:35,260
Speaker 2: I was feeling something I didn't want to feel that's

1117
01:00:35,260 --> 01:00:37,170
Speaker 2: what I would go and do even if even if

1118
01:00:37,170 --> 01:00:39,060
Speaker 2: it was good stuff, right? Like I want to celebrate,

1119
01:00:39,060 --> 01:00:40,570
Speaker 2: I should go jerk off and watch porn.

1120
01:00:40,730 --> 01:00:45,260
Speaker 2: And so what ended up happening was that not only

1121
01:00:45,260 --> 01:00:48,950
Speaker 2: was I not really connected to my own sexual arousal

1122
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:51,630
Speaker 2: because I had demonized it, right? It was this thing

1123
01:00:51,630 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 2: that I thought was out of control that you know

1124
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:57,910
Speaker 2: was ruining my relationships that I you know, I couldn't

1125
01:00:57,910 --> 01:01:01,150
Speaker 2: stop myself from watching porn. Like it really was my

1126
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:04,820
Speaker 2: my the addict in me grasping onto something

1127
01:01:05,270 --> 01:01:09,870
Speaker 2: and so those are sort of two different categories. I

1128
01:01:09,870 --> 01:01:12,300
Speaker 2: don't know, do you want me to approach like infidelity

1129
01:01:12,300 --> 01:01:14,630
Speaker 2: first and talk about maybe a little bit about why

1130
01:01:14,630 --> 01:01:17,530
Speaker 2: it happened and how I overcame it or approach porn

1131
01:01:17,530 --> 01:01:19,130
Speaker 2: or should I tie them together.

1132
01:01:21,070 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 1: I think when people talk about infidelity, they there is

1133
01:01:26,410 --> 01:01:28,950
Speaker 1: often this um

1134
01:01:29,580 --> 01:01:31,130
Speaker 1: blaming of porn

1135
01:01:31,140 --> 01:01:32,320
Speaker 2: and porn

1136
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 1: is the problem and like and then and then you

1137
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 1: have uh people like wanting to like manage or control

1138
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:43,980
Speaker 1: men's porn usage or just like take down the whole

1139
01:01:43,980 --> 01:01:46,620
Speaker 1: porn industry and

1140
01:01:47,670 --> 01:01:49,370
Speaker 1: neither of which you can do.

1141
01:01:49,380 --> 01:01:50,230
Speaker 2: And so

1142
01:01:50,230 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 1: I think I think there's that that I want to address.

1143
01:01:52,610 --> 01:01:53,990
Speaker 1: But um

1144
01:01:54,970 --> 01:01:57,730
Speaker 1: yeah, I think really we want to speak to men

1145
01:01:57,730 --> 01:01:58,420
Speaker 1: here

1146
01:01:59,110 --> 01:02:00,910
Speaker 1: primarily around like

1147
01:02:01,670 --> 01:02:03,590
Speaker 1: yeah, the importance of

1148
01:02:04,620 --> 01:02:05,350
Speaker 2: learning

1149
01:02:05,350 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 1: to deal with your struggle. Like you talked about the

1150
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:12,530
Speaker 1: struggle here, like like porn and your sexual desires were

1151
01:02:12,530 --> 01:02:13,060
Speaker 1: controlling

1152
01:02:13,060 --> 01:02:14,390
Speaker 2: you, you

1153
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,730
Speaker 1: were being controlled by those things and it was affecting

1154
01:02:17,730 --> 01:02:20,450
Speaker 1: your entire life, your relationships and everything that you wanted

1155
01:02:20,450 --> 01:02:22,290
Speaker 1: and and it was the thing that you went to

1156
01:02:22,290 --> 01:02:25,050
Speaker 1: for connection but and logically when you look at that

1157
01:02:25,060 --> 01:02:27,040
Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense. But that's what was happening and

1158
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 1: that's what's happening for millions of guys. And so what

1159
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:32,800
Speaker 1: do you guys need to sort of wake up to

1160
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:34,370
Speaker 1: and how do we

1161
01:02:34,660 --> 01:02:39,180
Speaker 1: um how do we get out of that? Because yeah,

1162
01:02:39,190 --> 01:02:42,570
Speaker 1: there's millions of guys who are in what you're talking

1163
01:02:42,570 --> 01:02:43,440
Speaker 1: about right now.

1164
01:02:43,450 --> 01:02:48,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well yeah, so maybe this is a longer conversation

1165
01:02:48,570 --> 01:02:50,840
Speaker 2: maybe I should have you on my podcast and you

1166
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:53,020
Speaker 2: and I can talk about this, it would be a

1167
01:02:53,020 --> 01:02:56,660
Speaker 2: good excuse for me to chat with you more. Um okay,

1168
01:02:56,670 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 2: a couple of things. One I don't think that porn

1169
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:02,570
Speaker 2: is often causing infidelity. Like I wasn't cheating because I

1170
01:03:02,570 --> 01:03:03,670
Speaker 2: was watching porn,

1171
01:03:03,850 --> 01:03:07,170
Speaker 2: I was I was being unfaithful for a number of reasons,

1172
01:03:07,170 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 2: but I don't think that was necessarily one of them.

1173
01:03:08,850 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 2: Did the porn help? No, you know, porn is you

1174
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:15,430
Speaker 2: can talk about it from something like, there's a lot

1175
01:03:15,430 --> 01:03:17,440
Speaker 2: of debate about whether porn is good or bad

1176
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:18,380
Speaker 1: and

1177
01:03:18,380 --> 01:03:21,850
Speaker 2: I think that that moral argument is less important than

1178
01:03:21,850 --> 01:03:25,190
Speaker 2: what is your personal relationship to porn. That is a

1179
01:03:25,190 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 2: much more important question, because for me, my relationship to

1180
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,610
Speaker 2: porn was not a good one, you know, it was

1181
01:03:31,620 --> 01:03:35,550
Speaker 2: in charge. And the reason why I was in charge

1182
01:03:35,550 --> 01:03:38,610
Speaker 2: was again because I didn't know how to regulate my system,

1183
01:03:38,620 --> 01:03:41,850
Speaker 2: so I'm gonna try and condense down male sexuality into

1184
01:03:41,850 --> 01:03:46,170
Speaker 2: a very brief synopsis. Okay, the way that a man's

1185
01:03:46,170 --> 01:03:48,130
Speaker 2: erection works is as follows.

1186
01:03:49,270 --> 01:03:51,650
Speaker 2: If you are when you start to get aroused as

1187
01:03:51,650 --> 01:03:52,140
Speaker 2: a man,

1188
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:55,690
Speaker 2: if you want to really have a good erection and

1189
01:03:55,690 --> 01:03:58,580
Speaker 2: a good experience sexually, you have to be relaxed.

1190
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 2: The reason for this is that when you start to

1191
01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:06,610
Speaker 2: get aroused, your body moves into a parasympathetic nervous system response.

1192
01:04:06,610 --> 01:04:11,100
Speaker 2: Parasympathetic dominant, that's the rest and digest, That's the brake

1193
01:04:11,100 --> 01:04:14,780
Speaker 2: pedal of your nervous system, that's the calm relaxed, sitting

1194
01:04:14,780 --> 01:04:17,840
Speaker 2: on the couch chilling out, hanging with friends part of

1195
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:21,720
Speaker 2: your nervous system. If you are more stressed that's the

1196
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:24,670
Speaker 2: sympathetic part of your autonomic nervous system.

1197
01:04:25,040 --> 01:04:28,170
Speaker 2: And that part is responsible for you going getting shit

1198
01:04:28,170 --> 01:04:31,280
Speaker 2: done you know doing the emails, running your business yada

1199
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:34,290
Speaker 2: yada yada. The problem is that most men haven't been

1200
01:04:34,290 --> 01:04:37,350
Speaker 2: taught how to get out of that sympathetic dominant part

1201
01:04:37,350 --> 01:04:40,590
Speaker 2: of the nervous system. So they're constantly in this stressed

1202
01:04:40,590 --> 01:04:44,070
Speaker 2: out overly anxious. Go go, go get it done state

1203
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:46,270
Speaker 2: that they can't get out of there, stuck there

1204
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:52,130
Speaker 2: and that causes a nightmare sexually for most men. Most

1205
01:04:52,130 --> 01:04:56,210
Speaker 2: nonmedical erectile dysfunction. Problems are because men are in their

1206
01:04:56,210 --> 01:05:01,450
Speaker 2: sympathetic nervous system and cant relax. Most premature ejaculation issues

1207
01:05:01,460 --> 01:05:04,030
Speaker 2: that are non medical are because men are stuck in

1208
01:05:04,030 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 2: an overly stressed out state within their nervous system and

1209
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:10,580
Speaker 2: they can't relax. Okay so how does this how does

1210
01:05:10,580 --> 01:05:12,370
Speaker 2: your your uh

1211
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 2: your sexual arousal work as a man. When you start

1212
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:16,890
Speaker 2: to get aroused with your partner,

1213
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 2: your body moves into a more parasympathetic nervous system state

1214
01:05:21,250 --> 01:05:23,760
Speaker 2: so you move into a rest and digest state that

1215
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:26,420
Speaker 2: allows the blood to flow through your body flows into

1216
01:05:26,420 --> 01:05:29,810
Speaker 2: your penis. You get an erection and the more and

1217
01:05:29,810 --> 01:05:35,000
Speaker 2: more close you get to ejaculation the more that your

1218
01:05:35,010 --> 01:05:37,450
Speaker 2: autonomic nervous system moves towards a c

1219
01:05:37,460 --> 01:05:41,650
Speaker 2: sympathetic or stressed response dominant state and then when you

1220
01:05:41,650 --> 01:05:44,570
Speaker 2: climax and ejaculate as a man you move into your

1221
01:05:44,580 --> 01:05:50,330
Speaker 2: sympathetic nervous system and then back into the parasympathetic nervous system, right?

1222
01:05:50,330 --> 01:05:52,930
Speaker 2: So then you're then you're heavy on the parasympathetic and

1223
01:05:52,930 --> 01:05:55,220
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of neurochemicals are released and you feel

1224
01:05:55,220 --> 01:05:57,350
Speaker 2: relaxed and you feel veg doubt.

1225
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:02,320
Speaker 2: So the reason why so many men are watching porn,

1226
01:06:02,330 --> 01:06:05,030
Speaker 2: whether it's, you know, in the relationship or they're single

1227
01:06:05,030 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 2: or whatever is because it's a really fucking cheap and

1228
01:06:08,610 --> 01:06:12,990
Speaker 2: easy way for you as a man to get out

1229
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:17,270
Speaker 2: of that stressed out response. Because after you ejaculate your

1230
01:06:17,270 --> 01:06:18,500
Speaker 2: brain and your body

1231
01:06:18,690 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 2: release chemicals that push you into that parasympathetic, relaxed rest

1232
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:29,630
Speaker 2: and digest state naturally without you having to do anything.

1233
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:32,180
Speaker 2: So you don't have to learn how to regulate your system.

1234
01:06:32,190 --> 01:06:35,800
Speaker 2: You don't have to learn how to uh to to

1235
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:38,470
Speaker 2: be with or direct your sexual arousal or energy. You

1236
01:06:38,470 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 2: don't have to learn how to do any of those things.

1237
01:06:40,210 --> 01:06:44,380
Speaker 2: There's also no risk in being rejected, right, porn's are

1238
01:06:44,380 --> 01:06:47,870
Speaker 2: very risk free way of getting your needs met.

1239
01:06:48,590 --> 01:06:51,210
Speaker 2: So for me to just sort of tie this all

1240
01:06:51,210 --> 01:06:55,490
Speaker 2: back in. I two things one, nobody had taught me

1241
01:06:55,490 --> 01:06:59,500
Speaker 2: how to uh really regulate my nervous system and I

1242
01:06:59,500 --> 01:07:01,590
Speaker 2: had a lot of energy. I still do. I'm a

1243
01:07:01,590 --> 01:07:04,040
Speaker 2: very like a type person like to get it done.

1244
01:07:04,050 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 2: You know, I like to work out and have fun

1245
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:08,810
Speaker 2: with friends and go hike and climb mountains. Like I

1246
01:07:08,810 --> 01:07:10,490
Speaker 2: like to do a lot of stuff.

1247
01:07:10,910 --> 01:07:13,440
Speaker 2: Um but nobody had taught me how to deal with

1248
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:16,630
Speaker 2: the energy in my body and, and, and direct it

1249
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:21,380
Speaker 2: and direct that sexual energy in my body. And, and secondly,

1250
01:07:22,070 --> 01:07:27,490
Speaker 2: no one had really taught me how to calm myself,

1251
01:07:27,500 --> 01:07:33,780
Speaker 2: how to move into a very relaxed, grounded centered place.

1252
01:07:33,790 --> 01:07:35,930
Speaker 2: And so uh

1253
01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:39,760
Speaker 2: I was really using pornography as a means of doing

1254
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:44,860
Speaker 2: exactly that feeling relaxed feeling de stressed feeling, not anxious, feeling,

1255
01:07:44,860 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 2: not angry, feeling, not frustrated, feeling, not whatever. I didn't

1256
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:51,600
Speaker 2: want to feel the infidelity, that was a little bit

1257
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:53,580
Speaker 2: of a different thing. That would probably take more time

1258
01:07:53,580 --> 01:07:55,900
Speaker 2: to get into, which I still think is is a

1259
01:07:55,900 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 2: very valid conversation, but I'll close by saying this

1260
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:04,690
Speaker 2: you as a man, if you want to stop watching porn,

1261
01:08:04,700 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 2: you need to get really clear on a few things.

1262
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:09,460
Speaker 2: Number one, you need to figure out what your porn

1263
01:08:09,460 --> 01:08:12,340
Speaker 2: ritual is. Every man has a porn ritual. Every man,

1264
01:08:12,350 --> 01:08:14,650
Speaker 2: every man that I've ever worked with has a ritual

1265
01:08:14,650 --> 01:08:17,330
Speaker 2: when he watches porn, he watches at a certain time

1266
01:08:17,330 --> 01:08:20,030
Speaker 2: in a certain place, he watches certain pornography. Some people

1267
01:08:20,030 --> 01:08:22,340
Speaker 2: like candles, some guys watching the bathroom or the bedroom

1268
01:08:22,340 --> 01:08:25,630
Speaker 2: or whatever. Number two, you need to get super clear

1269
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:29,830
Speaker 2: on what you're feeling before you want to watch porn.

1270
01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:34,160
Speaker 2: The majority of men are not watching porn because they

1271
01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:38,260
Speaker 2: are sexually aroused, what they're usually feeling is some concoction

1272
01:08:38,270 --> 01:08:42,880
Speaker 2: of board or numbed out or disconnected or lonely or

1273
01:08:42,890 --> 01:08:46,330
Speaker 2: angry or stressed or anxious or frustrated and they don't

1274
01:08:46,330 --> 01:08:49,260
Speaker 2: want to feel that way anymore. So you as a

1275
01:08:49,260 --> 01:08:53,049
Speaker 2: man need to tune into what am I actually feeling before?

1276
01:08:53,050 --> 01:08:55,620
Speaker 2: I want to watch porn? Am I actually aroused? And

1277
01:08:55,620 --> 01:08:57,700
Speaker 2: if I am actually aroused and I'm in a relationship,

1278
01:08:57,710 --> 01:09:00,180
Speaker 2: can I bring that arousal to my partner,

1279
01:09:00,400 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 2: right versus trying to offload it on pornography? So those

1280
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 2: are the two things that I would say start by

1281
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:10,929
Speaker 2: doing immediately because that is going to allow you to

1282
01:09:10,930 --> 01:09:15,170
Speaker 2: have some semblance of what you're experiencing and whether or

1283
01:09:15,170 --> 01:09:19,050
Speaker 2: not you're using porn in a conscious way or it's

1284
01:09:19,050 --> 01:09:22,150
Speaker 2: just an unconscious habit that you've built to try and

1285
01:09:22,150 --> 01:09:26,270
Speaker 2: de stress and regulate your nervous system. So that's like

1286
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:27,900
Speaker 2: condensed down into a couple of minutes.

1287
01:09:27,910 --> 01:09:30,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. Very good. Thank you for that.

1288
01:09:30,689 --> 01:09:31,500
Speaker 1: Um

1289
01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:37,260
Speaker 1: I I love the word cheap. You know like how

1290
01:09:37,260 --> 01:09:39,790
Speaker 1: is this very quick? It's like the high fructose corn

1291
01:09:39,790 --> 01:09:45,640
Speaker 1: syrup of sexual gratification. You know like Yeah, it can

1292
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:48,620
Speaker 1: be problematic. I mean, I don't think that stuff would

1293
01:09:48,620 --> 01:09:51,740
Speaker 1: hurt you in very small quantities. Uh maybe it's not

1294
01:09:51,740 --> 01:09:54,650
Speaker 1: a perfect analogy, but like um

1295
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:57,900
Speaker 1: if you're going to it all the time, uh

1296
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:04,050
Speaker 1: you are putting yourself in the passenger seat and in

1297
01:10:04,050 --> 01:10:07,790
Speaker 1: your life and in terms of regulating your nervous system

1298
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:10,960
Speaker 1: uh and you get to be the passenger instead of

1299
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:14,240
Speaker 1: the driver, right? And and so in your case it's

1300
01:10:14,240 --> 01:10:17,390
Speaker 1: like porn was, is driving you so

1301
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:23,090
Speaker 1: um or was uh so for guys who this resonated

1302
01:10:23,090 --> 01:10:25,500
Speaker 1: with and who this sort of peaks some interest if

1303
01:10:25,500 --> 01:10:28,469
Speaker 1: you're wondering like, okay, well, yeah, what should I do

1304
01:10:28,470 --> 01:10:32,250
Speaker 1: about this? Like I always advocate having support when you're

1305
01:10:32,250 --> 01:10:34,229
Speaker 1: going to try to do something hard in your life,

1306
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:37,830
Speaker 1: um particularly that involves like taking away some part of

1307
01:10:37,830 --> 01:10:38,650
Speaker 1: your routine

1308
01:10:38,850 --> 01:10:41,339
Speaker 1: because those things are very stubborn, you know, our routines

1309
01:10:41,340 --> 01:10:43,939
Speaker 1: and our rituals, like it's very hard to get in

1310
01:10:43,939 --> 01:10:46,420
Speaker 1: there as a counselor, as a coach, like trying to

1311
01:10:46,420 --> 01:10:49,840
Speaker 1: get a guy to change those things, it's very stubborn, right?

1312
01:10:49,850 --> 01:10:54,240
Speaker 1: And where I saw guys make some progress in this

1313
01:10:54,250 --> 01:10:59,269
Speaker 1: is um accountability groups, men's groups, one of the first

1314
01:10:59,270 --> 01:11:02,090
Speaker 1: men's work type things I ever did was I had

1315
01:11:02,090 --> 01:11:03,620
Speaker 1: an accountability buddy.

1316
01:11:04,220 --> 01:11:06,490
Speaker 1: The guy that, you know, we were, we went back

1317
01:11:06,490 --> 01:11:09,930
Speaker 1: and forth for 30 days checking in on no porn,

1318
01:11:09,930 --> 01:11:14,270
Speaker 1: no masturbation, no alcohol challenge with each other. And we

1319
01:11:14,270 --> 01:11:16,630
Speaker 1: also had to do like three minutes of handstands a

1320
01:11:16,630 --> 01:11:19,320
Speaker 1: day and we were like checking in holding each other

1321
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:22,510
Speaker 1: accountable and if, if one of us broke, he had

1322
01:11:22,510 --> 01:11:25,290
Speaker 1: to restart and we would both restart and we would

1323
01:11:25,300 --> 01:11:26,150
Speaker 1: sort of,

1324
01:11:26,350 --> 01:11:29,760
Speaker 1: that was useful for us because I knew that he

1325
01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:31,640
Speaker 1: was depending on me and I was depending on him, right?

1326
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:34,620
Speaker 1: So for guys who are interested in this or thinking like,

1327
01:11:34,620 --> 01:11:37,480
Speaker 1: oh yeah, well maybe maybe porn is running my life.

1328
01:11:37,490 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 1: The best thing I can say is

1329
01:11:39,870 --> 01:11:42,269
Speaker 1: the way you're going to know whether it is or

1330
01:11:42,270 --> 01:11:44,240
Speaker 1: not is quit and check your

1331
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:44,849
Speaker 2: withdrawals,

1332
01:11:44,860 --> 01:11:45,990
Speaker 1: right?

1333
01:11:46,740 --> 01:11:50,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I have, I think I put

1334
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:53,470
Speaker 2: like 55 or six steps in the book that you

1335
01:11:53,470 --> 01:11:55,980
Speaker 2: can do to stop watching it and all the things

1336
01:11:55,979 --> 01:12:00,220
Speaker 2: that I legitimately did. Um But yeah, I don't, I

1337
01:12:00,220 --> 01:12:05,260
Speaker 2: mean definitely do those things in tandem with an accountability partner,

1338
01:12:05,270 --> 01:12:06,790
Speaker 2: you know, that's going to

1339
01:12:06,810 --> 01:12:08,929
Speaker 2: just 10 X your results because you're gonna be doing

1340
01:12:08,930 --> 01:12:10,530
Speaker 2: it with somebody and you can say I funked up

1341
01:12:10,530 --> 01:12:12,670
Speaker 2: today or like, oh man, I really want to go

1342
01:12:12,670 --> 01:12:15,650
Speaker 2: watch porn right now, like, like you know, what can

1343
01:12:15,650 --> 01:12:17,310
Speaker 2: I do instead? Or like will you get on the

1344
01:12:17,310 --> 01:12:20,080
Speaker 2: phone with me or you know, talk talk me, you know,

1345
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:24,030
Speaker 2: talk me down because then you have somebody in tandem there.

1346
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:25,500
Speaker 2: I think that's super important.

1347
01:12:25,660 --> 01:12:28,570
Speaker 1: Yeah. That dispels some of the shame. Uh it deals

1348
01:12:28,570 --> 01:12:30,290
Speaker 1: with some of the shame around this, like I think

1349
01:12:30,290 --> 01:12:32,030
Speaker 1: this is kind of a silent struggle for a lot

1350
01:12:32,030 --> 01:12:35,729
Speaker 1: of guys and they don't realize that like most of

1351
01:12:35,729 --> 01:12:38,589
Speaker 1: the rest of the world is or has struggled with

1352
01:12:38,590 --> 01:12:41,490
Speaker 1: this at some point in modern times and you know,

1353
01:12:41,500 --> 01:12:42,019
Speaker 1: having guys

1354
01:12:42,020 --> 01:12:43,300
Speaker 2: talk to each other about this stuff is

1355
01:12:43,300 --> 01:12:44,500
Speaker 1: like it's just

1356
01:12:45,100 --> 01:12:48,769
Speaker 1: so key for breaking through because the shame just keeps

1357
01:12:48,770 --> 01:12:50,350
Speaker 1: it in the shadows, keeps it in the dark.

1358
01:12:51,050 --> 01:12:54,490
Speaker 1: So I want to be conscious of time. Um thank

1359
01:12:54,490 --> 01:12:56,320
Speaker 1: you for dropping in on that subject with me. You're

1360
01:12:56,320 --> 01:12:59,530
Speaker 1: right about infidelity, I think it's like an entire conversation

1361
01:12:59,530 --> 01:13:01,570
Speaker 1: and it is something I'm very curious about. So,

1362
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:05,049
Speaker 1: um for folks listening to this, if you're interested in

1363
01:13:05,060 --> 01:13:09,600
Speaker 1: in hearing about that, drop a comment on this video

1364
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:14,170
Speaker 1: or send a message to me or Connor via our

1365
01:13:14,170 --> 01:13:17,570
Speaker 1: instagram channels and just tell us that yeah, you're waiting

1366
01:13:17,570 --> 01:13:21,390
Speaker 1: for that conversation, because I like getting that kind of

1367
01:13:21,390 --> 01:13:24,900
Speaker 1: feedback from listeners and and from watchers um about what

1368
01:13:24,900 --> 01:13:26,990
Speaker 1: you want to hear, what subject matter you want to

1369
01:13:26,990 --> 01:13:27,960
Speaker 1: hear on the show.

1370
01:13:28,540 --> 01:13:32,429
Speaker 1: And also Fatherhood is something that you and I Connor

1371
01:13:32,430 --> 01:13:37,620
Speaker 1: have talked about getting into at some point, because you're

1372
01:13:37,620 --> 01:13:39,480
Speaker 1: a dad, I'm a new dad, and there's a lot

1373
01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:42,900
Speaker 1: that we're learning, and I'm already trying to um

1374
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:47,759
Speaker 1: pave the way and just support

1375
01:13:48,320 --> 01:13:51,290
Speaker 1: the dad's behind me who are coming, you know, and

1376
01:13:51,290 --> 01:13:53,750
Speaker 1: there's already a few in the, in the in the circle,

1377
01:13:53,750 --> 01:13:56,769
Speaker 1: and um so I want to keep sharing what I'm

1378
01:13:56,770 --> 01:13:59,610
Speaker 1: learning about fatherhood, because that's a whole new journey. Um

1379
01:13:59,620 --> 01:14:02,370
Speaker 1: so let's let's chat again, awesome

1380
01:14:02,370 --> 01:14:03,530
Speaker 2: brother! Thanks for having me.

1381
01:14:04,050 --> 01:14:08,280
Speaker 1: Thanks for being here man again folks, the book, men's work,

1382
01:14:08,290 --> 01:14:12,530
Speaker 1: a practical guide to face your darkness and self sabotage

1383
01:14:12,540 --> 01:14:16,800
Speaker 1: and find freedom. This book is out on january 31st

1384
01:14:16,810 --> 01:14:18,330
Speaker 1: 2023

1385
01:14:18,910 --> 01:14:23,340
Speaker 1: and I think people should preorder this book. I pre

1386
01:14:23,340 --> 01:14:25,459
Speaker 1: ordered it as soon as you announced it. I know

1387
01:14:25,460 --> 01:14:28,740
Speaker 1: that pre ordering books actually really kind of helps the

1388
01:14:28,740 --> 01:14:32,240
Speaker 1: algorithms that be out there. And you know, if you

1389
01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:34,720
Speaker 1: preorder it now, you're going to get it within a month. So,

1390
01:14:34,729 --> 01:14:39,660
Speaker 1: um and you're supporting Connor's work by Preorder, there's some

1391
01:14:39,670 --> 01:14:43,610
Speaker 1: thing around preordering if it just helps folks. So if

1392
01:14:43,610 --> 01:14:46,120
Speaker 1: you want this book, get it now and make it

1393
01:14:46,120 --> 01:14:48,490
Speaker 1: a book that you study with your men's circle

1394
01:14:48,700 --> 01:14:51,270
Speaker 1: and share it with your friends, share this podcast with

1395
01:14:51,270 --> 01:14:54,160
Speaker 1: your friends. If you want more from Connor, he's got

1396
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:57,940
Speaker 1: the man talks podcast, he's got man talks dot c

1397
01:14:57,939 --> 01:14:58,479
Speaker 1: a

1398
01:14:58,490 --> 01:14:59,710
Speaker 2: dot com dot

1399
01:14:59,710 --> 01:15:00,480
Speaker 1: com.

1400
01:15:01,070 --> 01:15:08,879
Speaker 1: Uh and um a whole host of of support that's

1401
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:11,920
Speaker 1: out there for for guys through, through Connor's work, if

1402
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:14,490
Speaker 1: this guy's words are resonating with you, including the alliance,

1403
01:15:14,490 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 1: which is an online brotherhood, which I've heard very good

1404
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:21,350
Speaker 1: things about. So, thanks again for this conversation for taking

1405
01:15:21,350 --> 01:15:25,920
Speaker 1: the time out of dad life and uh yeah, I

1406
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:27,610
Speaker 1: appreciate your brother. Always

1407
01:15:28,189 --> 01:15:29,160
Speaker 2: thank you sir.

1408
01:15:29,220 --> 01:15:30,110
Speaker 1: All the best