1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:09,680 S1: The Criminal Courts of Justice, Dublin, Thursday, November 28th, 2019 2 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:14,320 S1: after a nine day trial, a case never before seen 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:16,520 S1: in Ireland comes to a conclusion. 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,599 S2: A couple have been found guilty of female genital mutilation 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,680 S2: of their one year old daughter three years ago, in 6 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,680 S2: what is the first trial of its kind in this country. 7 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,800 S1: Six weeks later, the married couple are back in court 8 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:32,720 S1: for sentencing. 9 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,240 S3: Described the offence as the most egregious breach of trust 10 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,760 S3: by those presumed to be the protectors of their infant child. 11 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,760 S4: Today, Judge Elma Sheahan sentenced the male accused to five 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,880 S4: and a half years imprisonment and the female accused to 13 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:48,760 S4: four years and nine months. 14 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,159 S1: The couple are taken from the court and brought to 15 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:56,120 S1: prisons in different parts of the country to begin their sentences. 16 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,110 S1: They cannot believe what is happening. 17 00:01:01,150 --> 00:01:04,429 S4: The sentencing has been welcomed by advocacy groups and international 18 00:01:04,430 --> 00:01:08,069 S4: aid organizations, highlighting the dangers of FGM. Fiona O'Malley. 19 00:01:08,110 --> 00:01:11,710 S1: The following morning, the Detective Garda Chief Superintendent, who led 20 00:01:11,709 --> 00:01:16,390 S1: this investigation into the act of FGM as it's commonly known, 21 00:01:16,950 --> 00:01:19,150 S1: gives an interview on RTE radio. 22 00:01:19,630 --> 00:01:23,509 S5: It's an exceptionally complex crime to investigate. It's very, very 23 00:01:23,510 --> 00:01:26,310 S5: much in the shadows, very, very much, you know, behind 24 00:01:26,310 --> 00:01:30,150 S5: closed doors. So it's a really, really difficult crime to prosecute. 25 00:01:30,390 --> 00:01:35,630 S1: Throughout the investigation, trial and sentencing, the couple maintained their 26 00:01:35,630 --> 00:01:37,510 S1: innocence at all times. 27 00:01:37,830 --> 00:01:40,990 S3: The 37 year old man and 27 year old woman 28 00:01:40,990 --> 00:01:44,309 S3: had pleaded not guilty to procuring an act of FGM 29 00:01:44,510 --> 00:01:45,910 S3: at an address in Dublin. 30 00:01:45,910 --> 00:01:49,790 S1: Over five years on from those headlines, the couple still 31 00:01:49,790 --> 00:01:54,190 S1: say they never harmed their daughter. They say the Irish 32 00:01:54,190 --> 00:01:58,230 S1: state put them in prison and removed their children from them, 33 00:01:58,700 --> 00:02:00,580 S1: when none of that should have happened. 34 00:02:00,620 --> 00:02:03,140 S3: The couple are from an African country, but cannot be 35 00:02:03,140 --> 00:02:05,620 S3: named to protect the identity of the child. 36 00:02:06,020 --> 00:02:09,700 S1: We know this because we've been recording with this couple 37 00:02:09,980 --> 00:02:12,420 S1: and the many people who've worked on their case. 38 00:02:12,820 --> 00:02:16,700 S6: The transcripts of the trial, it just looked like gibberish. 39 00:02:17,139 --> 00:02:20,740 S1: And we've done this so that we. And you can 40 00:02:20,740 --> 00:02:25,660 S1: try to understand just exactly what happened. How was this 41 00:02:25,660 --> 00:02:30,860 S1: girl injured? Why were her parents charged, convicted and jailed? 42 00:02:31,260 --> 00:02:35,660 S1: And why, even now, do this couple find themselves still 43 00:02:35,660 --> 00:02:39,500 S1: fighting against the state as they try to clear their names? 44 00:02:39,580 --> 00:02:43,500 S7: It's a crime under 2012 criminal legislation. This is the 45 00:02:43,500 --> 00:02:45,420 S7: first case of its kind in this country, and this 46 00:02:45,419 --> 00:02:46,500 S7: is the first time anybody. 47 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:51,500 S1: From RTE documentary on one and RT investigates. My name 48 00:02:51,500 --> 00:03:02,329 S1: is Ruth Naga and this is first Conviction. Episode one 49 00:03:03,370 --> 00:03:11,050 S1: The Incident. To begin, we're going back to the early 50 00:03:11,050 --> 00:03:15,049 S1: hours of a Friday morning in a Dublin suburb in 51 00:03:15,050 --> 00:03:16,970 S1: September 2016. 52 00:03:17,250 --> 00:03:19,850 S8: The baby was waking up in the middle of the night. 53 00:03:20,210 --> 00:03:21,890 S8: My wife was breastfeeding her. 54 00:03:22,810 --> 00:03:27,130 S1: This is Sayeed, not his real name, because we have 55 00:03:27,130 --> 00:03:30,210 S1: to protect the identities of the family in this story. 56 00:03:30,250 --> 00:03:33,010 S8: We had a time frame that every three hours I 57 00:03:33,010 --> 00:03:35,170 S8: had to wake her up to breastfeed the baby. 58 00:03:35,370 --> 00:03:39,210 S1: That's not his voice either. It's an actor. But these 59 00:03:39,210 --> 00:03:40,570 S1: are his real words. 60 00:03:40,570 --> 00:03:43,610 S8: And I was managing our order. One. Whatever she needed. 61 00:03:44,330 --> 00:03:47,410 S9: Good morning. It's 7:00 on Friday, the 16th of September. 62 00:03:47,450 --> 00:03:50,010 S1: Dublin is a bit chaotic that morning, with many people 63 00:03:50,010 --> 00:03:52,930 S1: having to find alternative ways to get where they're going. 64 00:03:53,690 --> 00:03:57,240 S9: The headlines there is further travel disruption for commuters today 65 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,560 S9: as staff at Dublin Bus stage another day of industrial action. 66 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,640 S10: We woke up as normal as a family. 67 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:07,280 S1: This is Saeed's wife, who we're calling Halawa again, not 68 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,520 S1: her real voice, but these are her real words. 69 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,680 S10: I had the baby, so I told my husband to 70 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:17,560 S10: cook breakfast. He went into the kitchen and was cooking eggs, 71 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,640 S10: I think, and fixing the kitchen. 72 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,040 S1: This is a day that will forever change this family's life. 73 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,520 S8: And I was also rushing to go to the Friday prayer. 74 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,360 S8: I had to rush quickly to do whatever mama asked 75 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:31,240 S8: me to help her. 76 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,279 S1: Right now it's coming up to 11 a.m. and this 77 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,120 S1: young Muslim family are in their one bedroom apartment on 78 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:44,320 S1: the south side of Dublin with their two children, a 79 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,839 S1: seven week old baby and a 21 month old daughter 80 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:52,720 S1: who's still in nappies. You'll begin to notice Halawa and 81 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,719 S1: her husband, Saeed, like to refer to each other as 82 00:04:55,860 --> 00:04:57,260 S1: Mama and Daddy. 83 00:04:57,540 --> 00:04:59,739 S8: Mama was in the bathroom with the baby. 84 00:04:59,980 --> 00:05:03,739 S10: And he called me. I was breastfeeding the small one. 85 00:05:04,100 --> 00:05:08,620 S1: 21 month old Aisha. Not her real name, needs her 86 00:05:08,620 --> 00:05:09,779 S1: nappy changed. 87 00:05:10,140 --> 00:05:13,140 S10: And he said to me, I think Aisha has pooped. 88 00:05:13,660 --> 00:05:17,180 S10: And he said, I want to wash her. But I said, no, 89 00:05:17,180 --> 00:05:20,660 S10: I'm going to do that. You continue cooking the breakfast. 90 00:05:21,060 --> 00:05:24,940 S1: Saeed brings Aisha towards the bathroom. So Halawa can get 91 00:05:24,940 --> 00:05:26,780 S1: her cleaned and change her nappy. 92 00:05:27,339 --> 00:05:30,099 S10: I get a nappy and I have a wipe. Before 93 00:05:30,100 --> 00:05:32,980 S10: I washed her, I cleaned her with the wipe and 94 00:05:32,980 --> 00:05:35,659 S10: I took her to the shower to clean her. And 95 00:05:35,660 --> 00:05:38,140 S10: afterwards I said, go out now. 96 00:05:38,460 --> 00:05:41,580 S8: My daughter came out from the toilet. She came in 97 00:05:41,580 --> 00:05:45,860 S8: behind my back. I saw her without her nappy. I 98 00:05:45,860 --> 00:05:49,660 S8: had a small toy, a ball with lights. When you 99 00:05:49,700 --> 00:05:53,500 S8: squeeze it, it made a noise and lit up. I 100 00:05:53,540 --> 00:05:56,690 S8: showed her the ball. She was afraid of the ball. 101 00:05:57,290 --> 00:06:00,409 S8: I turned my back as she ran away. I thought 102 00:06:00,690 --> 00:06:03,930 S8: she will run to her mama. I turned away and 103 00:06:03,930 --> 00:06:05,289 S8: then I heard her crying. 104 00:06:09,130 --> 00:06:12,730 S1: And this is the point where an absolutely normal morning 105 00:06:12,730 --> 00:06:19,489 S1: for this family begins to change. Something happens to make 106 00:06:19,490 --> 00:06:20,890 S1: little Aisha cry. 107 00:06:21,529 --> 00:06:25,330 S8: I turn back and pick her up. I put her 108 00:06:25,330 --> 00:06:30,130 S8: to my heart to calm her. I say maybe she 109 00:06:30,170 --> 00:06:34,529 S8: hit against the door or whatever. She hasn't started walking 110 00:06:34,529 --> 00:06:35,450 S8: properly yet. 111 00:06:35,610 --> 00:06:38,810 S10: I was washing my hands and I hear after a minute, 112 00:06:38,810 --> 00:06:42,610 S10: one minute I heard crying sounds. I came out of 113 00:06:42,610 --> 00:06:46,250 S10: the toilet. Before I got there. I said, what happened? 114 00:06:46,650 --> 00:06:50,130 S10: He said she fell down. When I came into the kitchen, 115 00:06:50,130 --> 00:06:53,680 S10: I saw her daddy hold her up. When I looked down, 116 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,120 S10: I see a dot. I think one dot or two 117 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,160 S10: dots of blood. 118 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,279 S8: Then Halawa told me there is a drop of blood 119 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:08,359 S8: on my trousers. A drop of blood on the floor. 120 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:10,200 S8: I was shocked. 121 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:15,400 S1: Aisha is beginning to bleed and is upset. She's hurt 122 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,240 S1: herself in some way. And there's some blood coming from 123 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,960 S1: between her legs. But it's hard to figure out from 124 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:24,000 S1: exactly where. 125 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,280 S10: I took her from. Daddy. I put her in the 126 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:31,280 S10: shower again. I washed her, and I checked her. I 127 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,760 S10: put her in the small sitting room we had, and 128 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:39,040 S10: I checked. I didn't see any blood or anything. 129 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:44,160 S8: We thought maybe there might be blood inside. She's a child. 130 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,120 S8: She can't say if it is painful. It could be 131 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,950 S8: very dangerous. We cannot keep her at home. We can't 132 00:07:52,950 --> 00:07:53,870 S8: see the injury. 133 00:07:54,350 --> 00:07:58,630 S1: Saeed and Halawa are unsure how Aisha has injured herself. 134 00:07:59,070 --> 00:08:02,750 S1: They believe she's fallen on a nearby toy which injured her, 135 00:08:03,150 --> 00:08:06,590 S1: but they're not really focused on that right now. They 136 00:08:06,590 --> 00:08:08,790 S1: just want to get a doctor to see her. 137 00:08:09,070 --> 00:08:11,950 S10: And I said, let's go to the hospital and let's 138 00:08:11,950 --> 00:08:14,870 S10: check her. I said, let's take the car. 139 00:08:15,230 --> 00:08:18,190 S8: We grab whatever we have and get in the car. 140 00:08:18,710 --> 00:08:21,590 S8: I can't even take a bottle of milk. We put 141 00:08:21,590 --> 00:08:24,710 S8: the two children in the back, me in the front. 142 00:08:24,950 --> 00:08:27,190 S8: Mama driving. I was in a panic. 143 00:08:27,470 --> 00:08:29,590 S1: It's only a few minutes drive from their home to 144 00:08:29,630 --> 00:08:30,390 S1: the hospital. 145 00:08:30,710 --> 00:08:33,510 S10: And I said to daddy, okay, I'm going to look 146 00:08:33,510 --> 00:08:36,510 S10: after the small one. You go into the hospital and 147 00:08:36,510 --> 00:08:38,150 S10: stay there and wait for me. 148 00:08:39,150 --> 00:08:44,670 S1: Halawa goes back home and waits for any news. Saeed 149 00:08:44,670 --> 00:08:49,030 S1: carries 21 month old Aisha into accident and emergency at 150 00:08:49,030 --> 00:08:54,819 S1: Crumlin Children's Hospital. Hospital records show she is admitted at 151 00:08:54,820 --> 00:09:01,339 S1: 11:57 a.m. on Friday, September 16th, 2016. 152 00:09:02,140 --> 00:09:04,939 S8: The nurse welcomed us. I sat down there. 153 00:09:05,500 --> 00:09:08,700 S1: If you've ever been to a children's hospital emergency room, 154 00:09:09,340 --> 00:09:12,900 S1: they're usually busy with staff doing their jobs and parents 155 00:09:12,900 --> 00:09:17,620 S1: with their children doing well, doing very little chatting and 156 00:09:17,620 --> 00:09:20,860 S1: trying to keep the kids occupied until the next call 157 00:09:20,860 --> 00:09:24,740 S1: comes from a nurse or doctor. But little Aisha was 158 00:09:24,740 --> 00:09:26,780 S1: well able to keep herself occupied. 159 00:09:27,220 --> 00:09:30,300 S8: If you watch the CCTV when we brought her to 160 00:09:30,340 --> 00:09:34,260 S8: the hospital, you can see her moving from chair to chair. 161 00:09:34,460 --> 00:09:38,140 S8: She wasn't crying. Nothing. Everything was normal. 162 00:09:38,420 --> 00:09:45,500 S1: CCTV shows Aisha having fun playing peekaboo, dancing around at times. 163 00:09:45,900 --> 00:09:47,220 S1: She likes dancing. 164 00:09:47,220 --> 00:09:50,970 S8: And my daughter was walking from chair to chair. I 165 00:09:50,970 --> 00:09:55,089 S8: had to protect her so she didn't fall down. She 166 00:09:55,090 --> 00:09:59,450 S8: was taking off her shoes, playing as usual, like a 167 00:09:59,450 --> 00:10:05,929 S8: normal child of her age. We didn't get any excessive attention. Nothing. 168 00:10:06,770 --> 00:10:09,730 S8: A woman was sitting in the corner. We had a 169 00:10:09,730 --> 00:10:12,370 S8: chat and my daughter was talking to her. 170 00:10:13,570 --> 00:10:17,010 S1: Saeed and his daughter are taken to an examination room. 171 00:10:17,650 --> 00:10:21,809 S8: A nurse examined her first, then a doctor. She told 172 00:10:21,809 --> 00:10:25,170 S8: me she doesn't have anything wrong with her. You can't 173 00:10:25,170 --> 00:10:29,850 S8: bring her back home. But I said no. I am 174 00:10:29,850 --> 00:10:34,810 S8: not sure. I insisted to her that maybe it's something inside. 175 00:10:35,970 --> 00:10:39,010 S1: Pam Freiherr and Tim Desmond are part of the team 176 00:10:39,010 --> 00:10:43,850 S1: working across both this podcast series and the Tea Investigates 177 00:10:43,850 --> 00:10:45,530 S1: TV doc that follows. 178 00:10:45,850 --> 00:10:49,250 S11: As part of this investigation. We've contacted lots of those 179 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,520 S11: involved in this story asking a series of questions. 180 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,640 S12: One of the questions we asked Crumlin Children's Hospital was 181 00:10:55,640 --> 00:11:00,280 S12: whether Saeed was told she could go home that Friday afternoon, 182 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:01,680 S12: but they told us. 183 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:06,040 S13: Children's Health Ireland is unable to comment on individual cases 184 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,640 S13: due to patient confidentiality. 185 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:12,560 S1: Hospital records show that when Aisha arrived at hospital, she 186 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,840 S1: had a significant ooze of blood coming from her injury, 187 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,480 S1: which was brought under control with pressure dressings. Saeed rings 188 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,959 S1: home to his wife Halawa to keep her updated on 189 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:23,960 S1: the situation. 190 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,319 S10: I got a call from my husband. He said that 191 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,640 S10: he had met a nurse and the doctor and they 192 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,160 S10: said she's okay. She doesn't have anything wrong. They said, 193 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,480 S10: you can leave the hospital. I said, but we don't 194 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:38,559 S10: know what happened. 195 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:43,200 S1: It's now early Friday afternoon and Saeed is still speaking 196 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:44,640 S1: with hospital staff. 197 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:49,069 S8: I was worried. I said it's the weekend. there will 198 00:11:49,070 --> 00:11:53,030 S8: be no medical help available to examine her. Could you 199 00:11:53,030 --> 00:11:57,950 S8: please examine my daughter internally? My daughter was still in 200 00:11:57,950 --> 00:12:01,710 S8: the waiting area, playing as usual. No one was checking 201 00:12:01,710 --> 00:12:04,869 S8: her temperature. We were having a good time. 202 00:12:05,510 --> 00:12:09,110 S1: At some point that afternoon, a decision is made to 203 00:12:09,150 --> 00:12:13,709 S1: call in a surgeon to examine Aisha's wound. The surgeon 204 00:12:13,710 --> 00:12:17,310 S1: arrives at 5 p.m. just as Aisha is being wheeled 205 00:12:17,309 --> 00:12:21,510 S1: into theatre. He will later state that at that point, 206 00:12:21,510 --> 00:12:23,990 S1: the wound was fresh and the bleeding from her injury 207 00:12:23,990 --> 00:12:27,550 S1: was brisk. And with that type of blood loss, Aisha 208 00:12:27,590 --> 00:12:30,310 S1: could go into shock within 6 to 10 hours. 209 00:12:31,030 --> 00:12:34,310 S8: They give her some drops to put her to sleep. 210 00:12:34,830 --> 00:12:38,830 S8: It was anaesthetic. They brought her to the theatre and 211 00:12:38,830 --> 00:12:40,150 S8: they examined her there. 212 00:12:40,670 --> 00:12:45,950 S1: During the examination, the surgeon carries out a cauterization, a 213 00:12:45,950 --> 00:12:50,260 S1: medical procedure which uses heat to stop whatever bleeding is happening. 214 00:12:51,380 --> 00:12:55,619 S1: Once the procedure is completed, Saeed is told about what happened. 215 00:12:56,220 --> 00:12:59,260 S1: He's keeping notes in his native French because English is 216 00:12:59,260 --> 00:13:00,939 S1: not his first language. 217 00:13:01,860 --> 00:13:05,100 S8: I took notes in French. They told me there is 218 00:13:05,100 --> 00:13:08,740 S8: an injury to her genital area, but she doesn't need 219 00:13:08,740 --> 00:13:13,540 S8: any stitches. What I understood at that time, because they 220 00:13:13,540 --> 00:13:18,020 S8: use a medical term, was that it was not life threatening. 221 00:13:18,620 --> 00:13:20,500 S8: They don't need stitches inside. 222 00:13:21,059 --> 00:13:25,460 S1: After Aisha's procedure, Saeed is asked about what brought him 223 00:13:25,460 --> 00:13:26,420 S1: to the hospital. 224 00:13:26,860 --> 00:13:29,700 S8: They came to me and they asked me what happened 225 00:13:29,700 --> 00:13:30,660 S8: to my daughter. 226 00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:34,339 S1: So he tells the surgeon and his colleagues what happened, 227 00:13:35,380 --> 00:13:39,620 S1: that they weren't fully sure how the injury occurred. Maybe 228 00:13:39,660 --> 00:13:43,300 S1: Aisha fell on a toy and that their only concern 229 00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:45,100 S1: was their daughter's well-being. 230 00:13:45,460 --> 00:13:48,770 S8: I told him whatever I told the nurse the first time, 231 00:13:48,770 --> 00:13:52,290 S8: and the doctor who saw her before I told him everything. 232 00:13:52,770 --> 00:13:56,250 S1: Said is struggling a little with his English, but he 233 00:13:56,250 --> 00:13:58,929 S1: is able to get his message across to the doctor. 234 00:13:59,490 --> 00:14:02,210 S8: He took a record of the story and what happened 235 00:14:02,210 --> 00:14:04,730 S8: to her, and they told me she was not going 236 00:14:04,730 --> 00:14:07,809 S8: to be going out of the hospital. She would be 237 00:14:07,809 --> 00:14:10,650 S8: staying and they will see how things go. 238 00:14:11,130 --> 00:14:14,810 S1: Said phones home to tell his wife. Halawa that Aisha 239 00:14:14,809 --> 00:14:17,290 S1: is being kept in for observation. 240 00:14:17,770 --> 00:14:20,610 S10: He talked with them and they said they wanted her 241 00:14:20,610 --> 00:14:22,610 S10: to stay Saturday and Sunday. 242 00:14:23,130 --> 00:14:26,530 S1: Saeed is given a mattress and Aisha gets a bed 243 00:14:26,530 --> 00:14:30,690 S1: in a room. It's now Friday evening in Dublin City. 244 00:14:31,450 --> 00:14:34,610 S8: She had a urine tube that was tied to her leg. 245 00:14:34,850 --> 00:14:38,770 S8: We had to look after that carefully. She was playing normally, 246 00:14:39,210 --> 00:14:43,090 S8: dancing with a group of visitors. She was really dancing. 247 00:14:43,530 --> 00:14:45,050 S8: She would not stay in the room. 248 00:14:45,550 --> 00:14:48,990 S1: Saeed stays and sleeps in the hospital with Aisha. 249 00:14:49,030 --> 00:14:52,590 S8: We didn't see anyone on Saturday. We didn't see anyone 250 00:14:52,630 --> 00:14:53,390 S8: on Sunday. 251 00:14:53,710 --> 00:14:55,830 S1: And his wife stays mostly at home. 252 00:14:56,110 --> 00:14:58,990 S10: I have my small little baby in the house. My 253 00:14:58,990 --> 00:15:02,030 S10: sister and my niece stayed with me. Things were okay 254 00:15:02,110 --> 00:15:03,190 S10: until the Monday. 255 00:15:05,910 --> 00:15:11,270 S1: Monday, September 19th, 2016. That was the day when Halawa 256 00:15:11,270 --> 00:15:15,630 S1: and Saeed became aware that things were changing, but a 257 00:15:15,630 --> 00:15:18,670 S1: process had already kicked in over the weekend. 258 00:15:19,270 --> 00:15:21,910 S12: So we've been looking through the procedures. When a child 259 00:15:21,910 --> 00:15:23,590 S12: gets admitted to an Irish hospital. 260 00:15:23,830 --> 00:15:24,990 S1: Pam and Tim again. 261 00:15:25,190 --> 00:15:27,550 S12: And somebody raises a concern about an injury. 262 00:15:28,030 --> 00:15:30,750 S11: Shane Dunphy is a child protection expert who has worked 263 00:15:30,750 --> 00:15:33,030 S11: as a child and social care worker in Ireland for 264 00:15:33,030 --> 00:15:37,910 S11: more than 15 years. He still practices on a consultancy basis. 265 00:15:38,510 --> 00:15:41,350 S11: Shane has that inside knowledge of what goes on behind 266 00:15:41,350 --> 00:15:45,260 S11: the scenes when hospital staff raise concerns about an injury 267 00:15:45,260 --> 00:15:46,060 S11: to a child. 268 00:15:46,620 --> 00:15:50,780 S14: Medical staff would treat whatever the injury is. If they 269 00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:55,580 S14: have some suspicion during that treatment that this injury could 270 00:15:55,580 --> 00:15:58,820 S14: not have occurred in the way that the parents and 271 00:15:58,820 --> 00:16:02,100 S14: the child maybe are reporting that it did. If they 272 00:16:02,100 --> 00:16:04,540 S14: feel that there's no way that this is accidental, this 273 00:16:04,540 --> 00:16:08,700 S14: must have been something that was caused on purpose. They 274 00:16:08,700 --> 00:16:12,580 S14: then have the responsibility under the Children First Act, to 275 00:16:12,620 --> 00:16:17,340 S14: contact the designated liaison person for child protection in the hospital. 276 00:16:17,380 --> 00:16:20,820 S14: This is usually a medical social worker, and they then 277 00:16:21,020 --> 00:16:29,660 S14: initiate the child protection protocols. It would usually happen pretty quickly, 278 00:16:29,660 --> 00:16:33,180 S14: within hours of the child being admitted to the accident 279 00:16:33,180 --> 00:16:34,420 S14: and emergency room. 280 00:16:35,860 --> 00:16:39,540 S12: What all this means is that staff have raised concerns 281 00:16:39,740 --> 00:16:42,700 S12: around what's termed a non-accidental injury. 282 00:16:43,250 --> 00:16:47,010 S1: Which in turn means staff are legally required to raise 283 00:16:47,010 --> 00:16:48,170 S1: their concerns. 284 00:16:48,410 --> 00:16:51,530 S12: And the process Shane Dunphy has just spoken about is 285 00:16:51,530 --> 00:16:54,090 S12: kicking into action behind the scenes. 286 00:16:54,610 --> 00:16:58,010 S1: Saeed and his wife, Halawa, have no idea any of 287 00:16:58,010 --> 00:17:02,530 S1: this is happening. They know nothing about Irish hospitals and 288 00:17:02,530 --> 00:17:09,170 S1: child care protection policies. Why would they? They assume their daughter, Aisha, 289 00:17:09,170 --> 00:17:12,010 S1: would be clear to go home on Monday and family 290 00:17:12,010 --> 00:17:14,770 S1: life could go back to normal on Monday. 291 00:17:14,770 --> 00:17:18,290 S8: We got the first shock early in the morning. A 292 00:17:18,290 --> 00:17:22,210 S8: doctor came. She told me she worked in child safety. 293 00:17:22,650 --> 00:17:26,449 S8: She asked me what happened to my daughter. She recorded 294 00:17:26,450 --> 00:17:28,889 S8: what I said and she went. 295 00:17:29,210 --> 00:17:33,730 S1: Senior hospital staff. The surgeon who performed the procedure on Aisha, 296 00:17:33,970 --> 00:17:36,929 S1: a paediatrician who also had a role in child protection, 297 00:17:36,930 --> 00:17:43,040 S1: and another surgeon carry out an examination of Aisha They're 298 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:49,040 S1: using a colposcope, a specialized magnifying instrument used to examine 299 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:53,639 S1: the cervix, vagina and vulva for abnormalities. And they're video 300 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:55,680 S1: recording everything they're doing. 301 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,200 S10: They ask me what happened to my daughter. 302 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,119 S1: Halawa arrives at Crumlin Hospital that Monday morning and is 303 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:03,399 S1: spoken to by staff. 304 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,080 S10: And I said, what happened? But that I didn't see 305 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,919 S10: what happened exactly. I told them the whole story. The 306 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,080 S10: person who talked to me was from Tusla. 307 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:18,119 S1: By now, the designated liaison person for child protection within 308 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,919 S1: the hospital has sent a file outlining their concerns to Tusla, 309 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:28,280 S1: the state's child and family agency, a process Shane Dunphy 310 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:29,200 S1: knows well. 311 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,840 S14: Tusla social workers will then basically assess the file. They'll 312 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,000 S14: look at the file and say, is this a child 313 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,920 S14: protection concern? And if it is, they will then come 314 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,390 S14: in and take the lead on the child protection element 315 00:18:43,390 --> 00:18:46,830 S14: of the case, while the hospital medical team will continue 316 00:18:46,869 --> 00:18:48,790 S14: taking the lead on the medical care. 317 00:18:51,910 --> 00:18:55,109 S1: The rest of the day moves slowly. Meetings are happening 318 00:18:55,109 --> 00:18:59,710 S1: behind the scenes, but it's not until the following day, Tuesday, 319 00:19:00,310 --> 00:19:03,070 S1: that Saeed and Halawa are called to a meeting with 320 00:19:03,070 --> 00:19:04,190 S1: hospital staff. 321 00:19:04,470 --> 00:19:08,190 S8: Later on, they came back as a team. Two surgeons. 322 00:19:08,190 --> 00:19:11,790 S8: I knew somebody from Tusla. They all came. 323 00:19:11,830 --> 00:19:14,510 S10: They came to meet me with all the group of people. 324 00:19:14,869 --> 00:19:16,150 S10: I was there as well. 325 00:19:16,510 --> 00:19:18,750 S1: There are a lot of people at this meeting, including 326 00:19:18,750 --> 00:19:21,950 S1: the consultants who examined Aisha and a social worker from 327 00:19:21,950 --> 00:19:22,750 S1: the hospital. 328 00:19:23,190 --> 00:19:28,350 S8: They started bombarding us with questions saying we don't believe 329 00:19:28,350 --> 00:19:32,030 S8: the story of the injury to our daughter. They were 330 00:19:32,030 --> 00:19:35,109 S8: not as friendly as when we saw them on Friday. 331 00:19:35,630 --> 00:19:40,340 S1: Saeed feels things have changed. But the fact is hospital 332 00:19:40,340 --> 00:19:44,740 S1: staff don't believe the story about how Aisha received her injury. 333 00:19:45,460 --> 00:19:48,220 S1: Halawa remembers that at one stage, they were asked if 334 00:19:48,220 --> 00:19:51,180 S1: they could provide a true account of what happened. 335 00:19:51,420 --> 00:19:54,060 S10: The story you are telling us and what happened. The 336 00:19:54,060 --> 00:19:56,820 S10: little girl is not a match. Can you change the 337 00:19:56,820 --> 00:20:01,020 S10: story and tell us something different? We said, excuse me, 338 00:20:01,460 --> 00:20:04,620 S10: how can we change the story? I'm a bit shocked 339 00:20:04,619 --> 00:20:06,179 S10: and I don't know. 340 00:20:06,740 --> 00:20:10,220 S1: Hospital staff had earlier mentioned to Halawa they believed her 341 00:20:10,220 --> 00:20:13,380 S1: daughter Aisha was deliberately injured. 342 00:20:13,820 --> 00:20:16,340 S10: Before we went into the room, they talked to me 343 00:20:16,340 --> 00:20:20,060 S10: alone and they said, we know something happened to your daughter. 344 00:20:20,859 --> 00:20:24,580 S10: What's happened? I'm never thinking in my life. I'm going 345 00:20:24,580 --> 00:20:27,700 S10: to hear FGM. Never in my life. 346 00:20:27,940 --> 00:20:31,020 S1: By now, the Tusla social worker had been in the 347 00:20:31,020 --> 00:20:32,859 S1: hospital for several hours. 348 00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:39,210 S14: Shane Dunphy their job is primarily to gather Information, so 349 00:20:39,210 --> 00:20:43,250 S14: they will speak to hospital staff. They'll look at medical notes, 350 00:20:43,450 --> 00:20:46,970 S14: get injury descriptions, look at the explanations that the parents 351 00:20:46,970 --> 00:20:51,090 S14: would have given. Tusla will then apply a harm and 352 00:20:51,090 --> 00:20:54,130 S14: risk analysis. So what they do here is they will 353 00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:58,290 S14: look at the nature of the injury, its severity, its location, 354 00:20:58,290 --> 00:21:01,449 S14: whether it's consistent with the explanation given or not. 355 00:21:01,490 --> 00:21:05,090 S8: The Tusla officer was the woman who mentioned the first 356 00:21:05,090 --> 00:21:10,650 S8: time clearly the term female genital mutilation. 357 00:21:12,210 --> 00:21:14,930 S11: Now things have gone far beyond the control of Saeed 358 00:21:14,930 --> 00:21:17,609 S11: and Halawa. They're getting really nervous and worried. 359 00:21:17,650 --> 00:21:18,850 S1: Pam and Tim again. 360 00:21:18,890 --> 00:21:22,130 S12: They're outside their comfort zone, for sure, not least because 361 00:21:22,170 --> 00:21:25,169 S12: English isn't the first language for either of them. They 362 00:21:25,170 --> 00:21:28,370 S12: don't speak it at home. And back in 2016, they 363 00:21:28,369 --> 00:21:29,810 S12: only had broken English. 364 00:21:29,810 --> 00:21:32,609 S11: Sometime over those first few days in hospital. When Saeed 365 00:21:32,650 --> 00:21:35,330 S11: goes back home, he gets the toy that they feel 366 00:21:35,330 --> 00:21:38,200 S11: might have caused the injury to Aisha and then they 367 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,400 S11: bring the toy into the hospital to show everyone. So 368 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,200 S11: this is like a small plastic dashboard of a car, 369 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,160 S11: little steering wheel and a wing mirror. There's no sharp 370 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,959 S11: edges on it, so it doesn't obviously look like it 371 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,760 S11: would have caused a cut, but maybe the trauma of 372 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,840 S11: falling on it could have caused the bleeding. 373 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,280 S12: The thing is, hospital staff don't believe this story of 374 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,840 S12: the toy causing the injury, and by now they've already 375 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:03,120 S12: formed a different view. 376 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:08,720 S8: They told me something was cut from our daughter. Something 377 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,880 S8: is missing. They were using medical terms. 378 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:20,200 S1: And those medical terms relate to FGM, female genital mutilation, 379 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,040 S1: a brutal act where the external genitals of a female, 380 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,920 S1: usually a child, are cut or removed from their body, 381 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:35,160 S1: often for so-called cultural reasons. It's painful, unnecessary and illegal 382 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,510 S1: in most of the world. In Ireland, it's a serious 383 00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:42,149 S1: crime and you can receive up to a 14 year 384 00:22:42,150 --> 00:22:45,550 S1: jail sentence if found guilty of an act of FGM, 385 00:22:46,109 --> 00:22:50,070 S1: which is what Saeed and Halawa are now suspected of. 386 00:22:50,750 --> 00:22:55,189 S10: We said what is missing? Nothing is missing. They asked me, 387 00:22:55,230 --> 00:22:58,390 S10: did you check? Did you see? I said, yes, I 388 00:22:58,430 --> 00:23:03,790 S10: checked her. Nothing is cut. They said no. Someone took 389 00:23:03,790 --> 00:23:07,189 S10: a knife. You know, a sharp knife. They took it 390 00:23:07,190 --> 00:23:08,510 S10: and cut something. 391 00:23:08,950 --> 00:23:12,830 S1: Halawa understands what FGM means in a way most of 392 00:23:12,830 --> 00:23:17,229 S1: us never will. As a child in East Africa, she 393 00:23:17,270 --> 00:23:21,070 S1: had FGM carried out on her. And this is something 394 00:23:21,070 --> 00:23:23,109 S1: she told him and Pam about. 395 00:23:23,350 --> 00:23:26,030 S11: In our interviews with Halawa. She told us about her 396 00:23:26,030 --> 00:23:28,950 S11: experience of FGM, and she spoke about how she would 397 00:23:28,950 --> 00:23:30,350 S11: openly be against it. 398 00:23:30,390 --> 00:23:32,470 S12: That she didn't believe in it, and that it was 399 00:23:32,470 --> 00:23:36,180 S12: just one of many reasons she emigrated from Africa, arrived 400 00:23:36,180 --> 00:23:38,740 S12: to Ireland as a teenager and she was very open 401 00:23:38,740 --> 00:23:41,020 S12: with hospital staff at the time about this. 402 00:23:41,500 --> 00:23:44,340 S1: Halawa had been living in Ireland for almost a decade 403 00:23:44,340 --> 00:23:47,980 S1: when she brought her daughter, Aisha to Crumlin Children's Hospital. 404 00:23:48,619 --> 00:23:51,379 S11: Saeed and Halawa actually met and fell in love here 405 00:23:51,380 --> 00:23:55,500 S11: in Ireland. They're both from countries in East Africa. Saeed 406 00:23:55,540 --> 00:23:57,180 S11: had been here longer than Halawa. 407 00:23:57,500 --> 00:24:00,500 S12: When all of this was initially happening back in 2016. 408 00:24:00,900 --> 00:24:04,380 S12: Halawa was 24 years old. She was an Irish citizen 409 00:24:04,380 --> 00:24:07,820 S12: by then. Both of her daughters had been born in Dublin, 410 00:24:07,820 --> 00:24:12,180 S12: and they were also Irish citizens. Her husband, Saeed was older, 411 00:24:12,180 --> 00:24:15,540 S12: ten years older actually, so he was 34 at the time. 412 00:24:15,859 --> 00:24:18,140 S12: They had been married a few years, and Saeed was 413 00:24:18,140 --> 00:24:21,540 S12: actually fighting a deportation order to stay in Ireland. 414 00:24:21,540 --> 00:24:25,540 S1: By that Monday afternoon, a series of child protection procedures 415 00:24:25,540 --> 00:24:28,540 S1: are in place at the hospital and an email is 416 00:24:28,540 --> 00:24:32,900 S1: sent to gardai outlining how hospital staff suspect Aisha could 417 00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:39,719 S1: be a victim of FGM. For the next few days. 418 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,920 S1: Aisha is kept in hospital with her father Saeed by 419 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:43,680 S1: her side. 420 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,479 S8: I was in the hospital most of the time. I 421 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:51,360 S8: was treated by people very well, kindly, but sometimes the 422 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:55,360 S8: staff didn't notice that I see them, their faces changing 423 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,520 S8: like whenever they are reading something in front of them 424 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:00,800 S8: and I see how they react. 425 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,720 S1: Halawa and Saeed are adamant that whatever happened to Aisha 426 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,880 S1: wasn't FGM. They believe their little girl had fallen on 427 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,359 S1: a toy which caused her to bleed, but they could 428 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,760 S1: sense that no one really believed them. 429 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,320 S8: They were doing their duty as medical people. But what 430 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,280 S8: I don't forget is the room they put us in, 431 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,200 S8: in front of where the nurses are. It's what they 432 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:32,320 S8: call an observation room. I learned that afterwards how my 433 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,990 S8: daughter and me were interacting was being reported every morning. 434 00:25:37,510 --> 00:25:40,350 S1: Aisha was showing no signs of pain at this stage. 435 00:25:41,030 --> 00:25:44,910 S8: She was not even getting paracetamol. My daughter was not 436 00:25:44,910 --> 00:25:46,790 S8: getting any medication. 437 00:25:47,230 --> 00:25:49,429 S10: No medication? No nothing. 438 00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:53,909 S1: Not only is Aisha under observation, there are also restrictions 439 00:25:53,910 --> 00:25:55,070 S1: on her movements. 440 00:25:55,230 --> 00:25:58,389 S10: We can't take our daughter out of the hospital. We 441 00:25:58,430 --> 00:26:01,949 S10: don't have permission. We got a notice that we cannot 442 00:26:01,950 --> 00:26:06,550 S10: take her away. My solicitor told me later there was police, 443 00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:10,270 S10: but they didn't have uniforms or anything and they were 444 00:26:10,270 --> 00:26:13,710 S10: just sitting there. You bring your daughter in hospital to 445 00:26:13,750 --> 00:26:16,870 S10: know what happened and you get police. 446 00:26:17,590 --> 00:26:20,910 S1: Various agencies of the state have now been made aware 447 00:26:20,910 --> 00:26:24,790 S1: that this is a criminal investigation. The first of its 448 00:26:24,790 --> 00:26:28,430 S1: kind in Ireland into the crime of FGM. 449 00:26:29,869 --> 00:26:32,700 S12: We know that by the following Thursday, so that six 450 00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:35,899 S12: days after Halawa and Saeed brought their daughter to the hospital. 451 00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:40,020 S12: A Crumlin based garda detective sergeant arrives to the children's 452 00:26:40,020 --> 00:26:43,540 S12: hospital to meet with medical staff and welfare officers. 453 00:26:43,780 --> 00:26:47,740 S11: After that, the officer talks to his superior. A Garda inspector, 454 00:26:47,740 --> 00:26:50,540 S11: and from there the detective Sergeant goes to court and 455 00:26:50,540 --> 00:26:52,860 S11: gets a warrant to search the family home. 456 00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:55,939 S1: Later that Thursday evening, a group of gardai arrive at 457 00:26:55,940 --> 00:26:59,540 S1: the one bedroom first floor apartment on Dublin's south side 458 00:26:59,740 --> 00:27:01,980 S1: that Saeed and Halawa call home. 459 00:27:02,460 --> 00:27:07,220 S10: They were knocking hard. We opened the door and they said, 460 00:27:07,380 --> 00:27:08,859 S10: we are police. 461 00:27:10,220 --> 00:27:13,260 S1: Join us in our next episode as the lives of 462 00:27:13,260 --> 00:27:15,420 S1: this family are changed forever. 463 00:27:15,460 --> 00:27:17,899 S7: The couple, who are originally from Africa, listened to the 464 00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:21,179 S7: proceedings via an interpreter and swore on the Koran that 465 00:27:21,180 --> 00:27:23,540 S7: they would not apply for travel documents after they were 466 00:27:23,540 --> 00:27:25,020 S7: ordered to surrender their passports. 467 00:27:25,060 --> 00:27:28,420 S1: First conviction is narrated by me, Ruth Negga. 468 00:27:28,619 --> 00:27:31,649 S12: The series is written and produced by me, Tim Desmond 469 00:27:31,650 --> 00:27:32,409 S12: and me. 470 00:27:32,450 --> 00:27:35,970 S15: Liam O'Brien working together with the RTE investigates team. 471 00:27:35,970 --> 00:27:37,970 S16: Including me reporter Pam Fryer. 472 00:27:38,170 --> 00:27:42,210 S17: And Me producer director Philip Gallagher. The music is composed 473 00:27:42,210 --> 00:27:47,050 S17: by Me Mel Mercier and performed with Carl Nesbitt, Paul O'Donnell, 474 00:27:47,090 --> 00:27:51,970 S17: Niall Thumboo, Clara Sanabria and the Awty Concert Orchestra, conducted 475 00:27:51,970 --> 00:27:53,210 S17: by Gavin Maloney. 476 00:27:53,490 --> 00:27:56,490 S12: Seeds. Words are voiced by Steve Hartland. 477 00:27:56,650 --> 00:28:00,210 S15: And flowers words are voiced by Esosa Ighodaro. 478 00:28:00,369 --> 00:28:04,330 S1: Legal advice is from Deirdre Ann Kelly and Eleanor Blaney. 479 00:28:04,490 --> 00:28:06,850 S15: And sound design is by me, Kieran Cullen. 480 00:28:06,890 --> 00:28:10,010 S1: If you've been affected by any issues raised in this episode, 481 00:28:10,210 --> 00:28:17,450 S1: please visit. Our helplines. Until next time, thanks for listening.