Natasha G.: Okay, so take a listen to this.
Harley Quinn: The Joker and I broke up. I wanted a fresh
Harley Quinn: start. But it turns out, I wasn't the only dame
Harley Quinn: in Gotham looking for emancipation.
Natasha G.: Just a little taste of the trailer for Birds of
Natasha G.: Prey, the upcoming action- packed, DC Comics- inspired release from
Natasha G.: Warner Brothers. Welcome to Hello Movies, a podcast by movie
Natasha G.: lovers for movie lovers. I'm your host, Natasha Gargiulo. Today
Natasha G.: on the podcast, we've got a running theme going on.
Natasha G.: We're talking about women and revenge. We're going to be
Natasha G.: looking at two films that feature some mighty angry females
Natasha G.: on personal missions involving violence, emancipation, and vengeance. Birds of
Natasha G.: Prey, of course, starring Margot Robbie, and The Rhythm Section,
Natasha G.: a brand new thriller starring Blake Lively. From Lisbeth Salander
Natasha G.: to Wonder Woman, more and more movies are featuring these
Natasha G.: complicated female protagonists, women who don't do things by the
Natasha G.: book and who don't shy away from violence. Audiences are
Natasha G.: loving these films and we're going to talk about why
Natasha G.: that is and we've got some killer guests lined up.
Harley Quinn: You know what a harlequin is? A harlequin's role is to serve.
Harley Quinn: It's nothing without a master.
Natasha G.: As you heard, a harlequin equals a servant trickster character
Natasha G.: from the very old Italian tradition of Commedia dell'arte. Harley
Natasha G.: Quinn equals the name of a complicated female with a
Natasha G.: lot of moral gray area to explore. We last saw
Natasha G.: her as The Joker's main squeeze in Suicide Squad. She
Natasha G.: was so popular with fans that she's back in her
Natasha G.: own movie, full title, Birds of Prey: And the Fantabulous
Natasha G.: Emancipation of One Harley Quinn. This time, she's teamed up
Natasha G.: with a whole pack of female anti- heroes in Gotham
Natasha G.: City. The Birds of Prey includes Black Canary, Huntress, and
Natasha G.: Renee Montoya, the first openly gay character on screen in
Natasha G.: a DC Comic film. Their mission, to save a young
Natasha G.: female thief from a truly evil crime lord, Black Mask,
Natasha G.: played by Ewan McGregor. Margot Robbie, as we know, has
Natasha G.: taken on the role of Harley Quinn. Is she good
Natasha G.: or is she bad? Does she still like The Joker?
Natasha G.: Whose side is she on? And can you really trust
Natasha G.: her? What's driving her forward? So, to talk about what
Natasha G.: motivates a character like Harley Quinn, and to speculate on
Natasha G.: why people love her so much, I've got Hina Khan
Natasha G.: here with me. Hina is a coach and a registered psychotherapist
Natasha G.: whose main job is guiding people to create lasting change
Natasha G.: in their lives. So basically, an expert at helping stuck
Natasha G.: people get unstuck. I'm sure you're very popular and you
Natasha G.: have a lot of clients. We asked her to consider
Natasha G.: Harley Quinn and give us her professional opinion. Hi, Hina.
Natasha G.: Welcome to Hello Movies.
Hina Khan: Hi, Natasha. Thank you for having me.
Natasha G.: It's my pleasure. Okay, so you heard about this film, right?
Hina Khan: I have.
Natasha G.: We get to watch a group of really super tough
Natasha G.: and slightly twisted sisters doing it for themselves. And it
Natasha G.: comes on the heels of Harley Quinn breaking up with
Natasha G.: The Joker. So, what role do you think female friendships
Natasha G.: have in the wake of a breakup?
Hina Khan: I think female friendships are everything in the wake of
Hina Khan: a breakup. That's who you go to. That's kind of
Hina Khan: the soft place that you land. And that's also where
Hina Khan: you can take some time to heal and also gain
Hina Khan: perspective on what has happened, what you've been through. And
Hina Khan: then, it's also an opportunity sometimes for those girlfriends to
Hina Khan: share some of their insights that they could not share
Hina Khan: when you were in the relationship.
Natasha G.: Yeah, you are right. Whenever we get out of a
Natasha G.: relationship, whenever we go through a breakup, there's obviously a
Natasha G.: lot of anger involved. In general, how would you describe
Natasha G.: the female relationship to rage?
Hina Khan: So, I think the relationship between women and rage and
Hina Khan: anger is complicated even for us, because some of us
Hina Khan: are not comfortable with our own anger and our own
Hina Khan: rage because we've never been taught ways to express it.
Hina Khan: We've been told to bottle it up.
Natasha G.: Why are we told to bottle up?
Hina Khan: Because it makes other people comfortable. And so, we've been
Hina Khan: told that we've also been given an idea of how
Hina Khan: young women should be in social situations, in situations like
Hina Khan: that, and that we should not get angry because it's
Hina Khan: very unbecoming.
Natasha G.: But yet, in movies like Harley Quinn and Birds of
Natasha G.: Prey, we are seeing these anti- heroines that are kind
Natasha G.: of raging and getting revenge back and we're seeing it
Natasha G.: very popular on the big screen. So people love them,
Natasha G.: especially these women. Why is that?
Hina Khan: I think people are ready for it. And it's speaking
Hina Khan: to something that people are craving. They're tired of women
Hina Khan: being boxed into these stereotypical characters. But what's really exciting
Hina Khan: about it is that, I've got two boys that are
Hina Khan: 10 and 12, and when they see these strong female
Hina Khan: leads, they don't even bat an eyelash. To them, it
Hina Khan: is normal now. So I think we're seeing a paradigm
Hina Khan: shift. Also, as we see more female directors, more female
Hina Khan: screenwriters, when we see it sort of in front of
Hina Khan: and behind the camera, we're seeing the narrative change as
Hina Khan: well. And then these characters, what's so beautiful about it
Hina Khan: is that they are complex and layered, as we are.
Natasha G.: Yeah. How do you think films like this, female- directed
Natasha G.: strong female leads full of female- initiated violence will impact
Natasha G.: the next generation of moviegoers?
Hina Khan: I think it gives women, young girls permission to be
Hina Khan: able to access their whole range of feelings, not just
Hina Khan: the feelings that we find acceptable. And I think there's
Hina Khan: something really powerful to see it on the big screen,
Hina Khan: because we see it in movies of superheroes with boys
Hina Khan: all the time and they get to, in their imagination,
Hina Khan: go there. I see it with my boys that are
Hina Khan: 10 and 12 and they've gotten Nerf guns and they're playing parts
Hina Khan: and they're doing it and it's all really healthy and
Hina Khan: it's great. And it's going to be wonderful that young
Hina Khan: girls will be able to access that as well.
Natasha G.: Hina, thank you so much. It's been awesome talking to
Natasha G.: you about this. The fantabulous Hina Khan, everybody. This is
Natasha G.: the Girls Get Even episode of the Cineplex Hello Movies
Natasha G.: podcast. If you like what you're hearing, don't forget to
Natasha G.: subscribe, like, share, and review us where you get your
Natasha G.: podcasts. Coming up, The Rhythm Section starring Blake Lively, a
Natasha G.: tense and moving film about anger, loss, and retribution. Blake
Natasha G.: plays Stephanie Patrick, a woman who turns to violence to
Natasha G.: get revenge on the people who killed her family.
Stephanie P.: I lost my family three years ago.
Speaker 5: It wasn't an accident.
Stephanie P.: I need your help to find the ones who did
Stephanie P.: this. I've got nothing to lose.
Speaker 5: What about your life?
Stephanie P.: What about it?
Natasha G.: Okay, so, The Rhythm Section is a new British- American
Natasha G.: action thriller, screenplay by Mark Burnell, based on his novel
Natasha G.: of the same name and directed by Reed Morano, who
Natasha G.: directed the first three episodes of The Handmaid's Tale. Blake
Natasha G.: Lively is playing Stephanie Patrick, a grieving woman who assumes
Natasha G.: the identity of an assassin so she can uncover the
Natasha G.: truth about how her family died and go after revenge
Natasha G.: against those responsible. The film also stars Jude Law and
Natasha G.: Sterling K. Brown. The character of Stephanie Patrick has been
Natasha G.: compared with Lisbeth Salander from The Girl with the Dragon
Natasha G.: Tattoo series, a woman dealing with trauma, dark, and self-
Natasha G.: destructive but deeply determined. I recently had the chance to
Natasha G.: talk to writer, Mark Burnell, who created Stephanie Patrick to
Natasha G.: learn more about her and the film. All right. So,
Natasha G.: I had the opportunity to read this book over the
Natasha G.: holidays and I must confess it is a page- turner.
Natasha G.: It kind of reminds me of a female Bourne Identity
Natasha G.: because Stephanie Patrick really kicks butt in this novel. So,
Natasha G.: Mark, tell me what you were setting out to do
Natasha G.: when you wrote the character of Stephanie Patrick.
Mark Burnell: Well, originally, before I started the book, the character was going to be male because conventionally, that's
Mark Burnell: what happens in these kinds of books. But there was
Mark Burnell: something that just didn't feel right. And I can't even
Mark Burnell: truthfully remember now quite when it was that I thought, " What
Mark Burnell: if it was a woman?" But it was one of
Mark Burnell: those things like the moment it's thought, you can't unthink
Mark Burnell: it. And then I thought, " Okay, yeah, that would be
Mark Burnell: so much more interesting." Because I haven't read anything like
Mark Burnell: this with a female central character in these types of
Mark Burnell: thrillers. And of course, then the big issue was, well,
Mark Burnell: how's that going to be for me to write this
Mark Burnell: character from her perspective?
Natasha G.: This character has been compared in the press to Lisbeth Salander from The Girl with
Natasha G.: the Dragon Tattoo series. How similar do you feel that
Natasha G.: they are to one another?
Mark Burnell: They do differ in some respects. I mean, the reason
Mark Burnell: Stephanie's in such a pitiful state when we meet her
Mark Burnell: is as a direct consequence of what happens to her
Mark Burnell: family, when she's in her sort of mid, like in her
Mark Burnell: late teens. Prior to that point, she's grown up in
Mark Burnell: a very loving, stable, well- off middle- class family. She's
Mark Burnell: had the best kind of upbringing you could possibly imagine.
Mark Burnell: That is not true, I know, of the Lisbeth Salander
Mark Burnell: character. If there were some comparisons to be made, I
Mark Burnell: would say it's, they both have a part of them
Mark Burnell: somewhere held somewhere deep inside them, deep, deep inside them,
Mark Burnell: which is who they truly are and it's that's protected,
Mark Burnell: so whatever else happens to them, whatever people do to
Mark Burnell: them physically, the kind of emotional stuff that gets thrown
Mark Burnell: at them, as long as that little bit stays safe,
Mark Burnell: they can kind of deal with everything else. I would
Mark Burnell: say that's probably a sort of big similarity between the two.
Natasha G.: Yes. I think another similarity is kind of like that
Natasha G.: underlying message about seeking revenge or getting vengeance. So, what
Natasha G.: were you trying to get across with that story for
Natasha G.: this character?
Mark Burnell: For Stephanie, what she's looking for is to feel better.
Mark Burnell: She wants justice because there's been an injustice and not
Mark Burnell: only that, it's taken away her family, so on a
Mark Burnell: basic level, that's what she's looking for. But more deeply,
Mark Burnell: she wants to feel better. She doesn't want to be
Mark Burnell: hurting so much and she feels, initially, that if she
Mark Burnell: can get revenge, if she can make it right, then
Mark Burnell: she's going to feel right.
Natasha G.: You worked with Reed Morano who directed the first three
Natasha G.: episodes of The Handmaid's Tale. What was it like working
Natasha G.: with her?
Mark Burnell: Truthfully, when I first met her here in London, I'd
Mark Burnell: sort of heard about her, but I hadn't seen Meadowland
Mark Burnell: and I hadn't seen Handmaid's Tale either. But she was
Mark Burnell: a name I sort of heard of anyway. I was
Mark Burnell: introduced to her by Barbara Broccoli and Michael Wilson. And
Mark Burnell: they said, " Look, it's very important to us that you're
Mark Burnell: happy with her before." So we met. And as soon
Mark Burnell: as I met her, as soon as we started talking,
Mark Burnell: I just thought, " Okay, this is going to be absolutely
Mark Burnell: fine." And we got on amazingly well. She had a
Mark Burnell: totally old views of how this should be. We're totally
Mark Burnell: locked, really from the first day. So yeah, I couldn't
Mark Burnell: have been happier. She's been terrific the whole way through.
Natasha G.: And I'm curious to know about your thoughts of Blake
Natasha G.: Lively playing Stephanie Patrick.
Mark Burnell: So I sat through, I think it was 85 separate auditions for Stephanie.
Mark Burnell: Blake was not one of them.
Natasha G.: 85?
Mark Burnell: 85, yep.
Natasha G.: Can you tell us who were some of the other
Natasha G.: actresses that auditioned for it?
Mark Burnell: There were two really real standout auditions, both English. That
Mark Burnell: was... But we'd always agreed here that no matter who
Mark Burnell: made this and how it should be, that Stephanie should
Mark Burnell: stay English. She should definitely be English on the screen.
Mark Burnell: So, most of the actresses who auditioned were English. And
Mark Burnell: there was Florence Pugh. Her audition was really fantastic, as
Mark Burnell: you would expect. And then there was another woman whose
Mark Burnell: audition, again, rather to my shame, I hadn't, I didn't
Mark Burnell: know who she was because I hadn't seen the series that
Mark Burnell: she was in over here, which is very, very popular.
Mark Burnell: Big sort of Sunday evening show called... Eleanor Tomlinson and
Mark Burnell: she's in the show called Poldark, which is this sort
Mark Burnell: of 17th, 18th- century thing set down in Cornwall. It's
Mark Burnell: a big costume drama. Her audition was absolutely extraordinary. I
Mark Burnell: mean, really amazing. Anyway, so... But anyway, there were about
Mark Burnell: half a dozen really standout ones, but Eleanor Tomlinson's was
Mark Burnell: the best. And then suddenly, I get a call from
Mark Burnell: Barbara saying, " Oh, by the way, Reed signed. She's definitely
Mark Burnell: directing." So, that was excellent. " And Blake Lively is going
Mark Burnell: to play Stephanie." It was like, " Really?" It's like, it came
Mark Burnell: as a total surprise. I have no sort of hesitation
Mark Burnell: about saying this now because of the way it turned out, but I was
Mark Burnell: slightly taken aback because I thought, " Well, this is not
Mark Burnell: who I imagined that was going to be playing Stephanie," because I'm mostly
Mark Burnell: familiar from her work. My daughter's a huge fan of
Mark Burnell: Gossip Girl.
Natasha G.: XOXO.
Mark Burnell: Well, exactly. And although, I had recently seen The Shallows.
Mark Burnell: I had recently seen The Shallows where she's in every
Mark Burnell: single scene, and it was terrific. But nevertheless, that wasn't quite
Mark Burnell: what I had in mind. But then from the first
Mark Burnell: day, the first day on the set was in Dublin.
Mark Burnell: The moment I saw her on the monitor, the way
Mark Burnell: she looked, her attitude, she looked terrible because it's right
Mark Burnell: at the beginning of the movie, she was (crosstalk)
Mark Burnell: shocking. But the way she looked and the way she got
Mark Burnell: into the car and her insolence and her accent, everything
Mark Burnell: was just like, " We're in safe hands here. We are
Mark Burnell: absolutely in safe hands." I mean, she really exceeded, I
Mark Burnell: think, everybody's expectation. And I would say that part of
Mark Burnell: that was probably due to the relationship she had with
Mark Burnell: Reed. I think Reed enabled her. I think Blake trusted
Mark Burnell: Reed enough, and that that meant that Reed was then
Mark Burnell: able to get this performance out of her.
Natasha G.: Well, you see, I think that is a perfect example of
Natasha G.: why people should go see this movie, because we want
Natasha G.: to see what Blake Lively is going to do to
Natasha G.: Stephanie Patrick and how she's going to perform. And I
Natasha G.: think it's a role that's going to challenge her but
Natasha G.: also, we'll see her in a different light. So, thank
Natasha G.: you for that. What I'm interested in knowing, very briefly,
Natasha G.: I'm sure there's a long process to it, but what's
Natasha G.: the process from taking a novel and converting it into
Natasha G.: a screenplay? Because I'm sure there's a lot of bits
Natasha G.: in the book that are not included in the film
Natasha G.: that we won't see.
Mark Burnell: There are. Well firstly, the general first step that happens
Mark Burnell: in this process is that you should exclude the writer because-
Natasha G.: Oh.
Mark Burnell: Of the novel. Writers very, don't generally get asked to adapt their own
Mark Burnell: work for a very good reason actually, is that most
Mark Burnell: of them find it hard to butcher the book. But
Mark Burnell: for me, the book exists in its own right. It's
Mark Burnell: there. And so, we're making a movie, which is something
Mark Burnell: different, and it's not important that we hack up the
Mark Burnell: book, which was just as well because that's actually what
Mark Burnell: we did. You've read the book, there's way too much
Mark Burnell: in those pages to go into a one hour 45
Mark Burnell: movie. And that never bothered me. In fact, I found
Mark Burnell: that I really enjoyed that, having to sort of think
Mark Burnell: of something completely new and alternative, and just doing whatever
Mark Burnell: needs to be done to make the two hours work.
Natasha G.: That's some great insight.
Mark Burnell: And I really enjoyed that.
Natasha G.: Yeah, no, that's some fantastic insight for any screenwriters out
Natasha G.: there. Do you have any tips for them? Any last
Natasha G.: words that perhaps some screenwriters are listening right now and
Natasha G.: they're saying, " Oh, I'd love to find out some little
Natasha G.: tidbits on how I can improve my work."
Mark Burnell: The first bit of advice I would give is, would apply actually to
Mark Burnell: novelists and screenwriters, which is, just do it. And I
Mark Burnell: know this better than anybody. I spend an awful lot
Mark Burnell: of time finding excuses not to sit down and do
Mark Burnell: the work. And if you can get past that, just do
Mark Burnell: it. That's helpful.
Natasha G.: I think we all do.
Mark Burnell: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And the other thing, this is something
Mark Burnell: I've sort of picked up the screenwriting on the way,
Mark Burnell: it's the dialogue is the dialogue but all the other
Mark Burnell: stuff, try to find... A lot of different people are
Mark Burnell: going to read your script and they're going to feel about
Mark Burnell: it differently, and you need to find a language that
Mark Burnell: is clear, it's going to be very economical, and not
Mark Burnell: be off- putting. There are scripts which are very off-
Mark Burnell: putting sometimes, to different eyes and to different sensibilities. And
Mark Burnell: you've got to, if you can find a sort of
Mark Burnell: a neutral way that isn't boring but is clear, that's
Mark Burnell: going to be incredibly helpful. That's something which I really
Mark Burnell: picked up along the way. And that was an unexpected
Mark Burnell: lesson, I would say.
Natasha G.: Mark, thank you so much for taking the time to
Natasha G.: speak with us today. We appreciate it.
Mark Burnell: Well, thank you so much.
Natasha G.: That's it for today. I hope you enjoyed this Girls
Natasha G.: Get Even episode of Hello Movies, looking at women, revenge,
Natasha G.: and the art of reclaiming your identity after trauma. The
Natasha G.: Rhythm Section opens January 31st and Birds of Prey comes
Natasha G.: at you February 7th. Plus if you like action, opening
Natasha G.: this week on January 24th, The Gentlemen, an action comedy
Natasha G.: written and directed by Guy Ritchie, starring Matthew McConaughey as
Natasha G.: a marijuana kingpin who's looking to retire. Plenty of great
Natasha G.: reasons to get down to your local Cineplex and check
Natasha G.: out a movie. Don't forget to save me some popcorn.
Natasha G.: I'm Natasha Gargiulo. Thanks for listening.