Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
Speaker 1: It's Wednesday and we are here live until 4 o'clock
Speaker 1: today to answer the questions you have about the Bible,
Speaker 1: the Christian faith, just about anything that's on your mind.
Speaker 1: Give us a call at 888-564-6173. If you're watching on Facebook,
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Speaker 1: Numbers right there on the bottom of your screen, 888-564-6173,
Speaker 1: or you can scan that QR code there on the
Speaker 1: bottom right, and that'll take you right to the pastor's
Speaker 1: perspective page on Kwave.com, where you can submit your question.
Speaker 1: You can also submit your question using the pastor's perspective
Speaker 1: Facebook Messenger or by DMing us on the pastor.
Speaker 1: perspective, Instagram. But the best way to get an answer
Speaker 1: is to call us when we're here, like today till
Speaker 1: 4 o'clock at 888-564-6173. We've got Char Broderson, the lead
Speaker 1: pastor of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, joining us today. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's Wednesday. He's normally only here on Mondays, but he's
Speaker 1: here today. Thank you, Char,
Speaker 2: for coming in. I was
Speaker 2: an accident. I just walked in.
Speaker 1: And you said, hey, do you need anybody? I
Speaker 2: said, oh, who's sitting in that chair?
Speaker 1: Yes. And Dave Keene is here too. We've had him
Speaker 1: on before. He's a professor at Byola University. He's also
Speaker 1: a teaching pastor at Cornerstone Church, Cornerstone Community Church in
Speaker 1: San Clementi. Welcome back, Dave. Thank you. It's always a
Speaker 1: pleasure to be here. Yeah, it's good to have you here.
Speaker 1: So you guys haven't met prior to today. So Char
Speaker 1: tell Dave something about you and Dave tell Char something
Speaker 1: about
Speaker 2: you. Oh wow, um,
Speaker 1: that's how we do introduction. That's my lazy way of
Speaker 2: like tattoos, so.
Speaker 1: I could, I could see that we have something in common.
Speaker 1: There we go. My, uh, claim to fame at Viola
Speaker 1: is I'm the first Bible prof with a full sleeve
Speaker 1: of tattoos.
Speaker 2: So there you go. That's a pretty good claim to
Speaker 2: fame.
Speaker 1: I did, uh, wait to make sure I had tenure
Speaker 1: first before, uh, before I started this process.
Speaker 2: I'm so dummy. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's great. Too cool.
Speaker 1: All right, 888-564-6173 is our number and as I said,
Speaker 1: you can send in your questions online too. Here's one
Speaker 1: that Paul sent in.
Speaker 1: A pastor friend of mine is convinced that the majority
Speaker 1: of American churches are not preaching the true gospel. He
Speaker 1: claims that the gospel is being presented as a ticket
Speaker 1: out of hell and a ticket into heaven, but nothing
Speaker 1: is being presented to encourage people to live for Jesus
Speaker 1: and to show His love to others. Do you believe
Speaker 1: that most churches are preaching a gospel that is just
Speaker 1: about getting into heaven? Has there been any research concerning
Speaker 1: this matter? Sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you can, there's definitely research that is
Speaker 2: done concerning this matter. Um, and I mean, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: I imagine Barna has done quite some extensive work on this. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, there's one of those questions where I don't know,
Speaker 2: I think, I often think like faithfulness never makes the headlines.
Speaker 2: And, you know, what you're going to see on the internet,
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes is clickbait, you know, so it's gonna be,
Speaker 2: you know, this pastor said this and it's, you know,
Speaker 2: off doctrinally, it's heretical, whatever it might be, you know,
Speaker 2: that's the stuff that people are going to click and
Speaker 2: they're gonna want to see and the stuff that people
Speaker 2: are gonna want to talk about. But unfortunately, you know,
Speaker 2: the churches that are just faithfully preaching the gospel and
Speaker 2: what we would say is, you know, the reign of God,
Speaker 2: allegiance to Jesus, the king, following in the way of Jesus,
Speaker 2: loving their neighbors, doing mercy and justice.
Speaker 2: You know, that kind of work is not gonna make
Speaker 2: the headlines, you know, people don't, they overlook that kind
Speaker 2: of stuff. And then I think sometimes too, like, you know,
Speaker 2: we can kind of try to define ourselves by what
Speaker 2: we're not, you know, and so we can kind of
Speaker 2: throw stones at other churches and compare, you know that. Well,
Speaker 2: we're really, you know, the church that's teaching the truth
Speaker 2: and who knows what that church over there is doing,
Speaker 2: and I think we just need to be careful about
Speaker 2: that stuff. I think we can talk about cultural, um,
Speaker 2: you know, the
Speaker 2: Culture of discipleship in the church, and um the need
Speaker 2: to always be, you know, self-reflective um are we walking
Speaker 2: in the way of Jesus, you know, think about the
Speaker 2: letters to the churches, the book of Revelation, how Christ
Speaker 2: is commending and yet he's saying, hey, and these are
Speaker 2: the things that I have against you. And so he's
Speaker 2: wanting to correct, bring us into line with him, or Paul,
Speaker 2: you know, he wants to bring us into line with
Speaker 2: the way of the spirit. And so, you know, I,
Speaker 2: I hope that each church community is doing that.
Speaker 2: As being introspective, self-reflective about, you know, what are the
Speaker 2: areas that we need to refine and, you know, come into, um,
Speaker 2: Yeah, agreement with the way of Jesus and the work
Speaker 2: of the spirit. So, Dave, I mean, what do you think?
Speaker 1: Yeah, the, the latest Barna study that you kind of
Speaker 1: maybe decided the state of the church just came out
Speaker 1: in earlier this year that is looking at a renewed trend.
Speaker 1: That has Gen Zs kind of really turning to Jesus
Speaker 1: and and I think that language that Dave Kinnaman, who
Speaker 1: um does a lot of work with us at Viola
Speaker 1: sites is
Speaker 1: The turn to Jesus because it's not so much just,
Speaker 1: you know, you see a return to church. You see
Speaker 1: people really wanting to know Jesus and making equipment to
Speaker 1: Jesus and I think the more we keep focused people,
Speaker 1: how do we follow Jesus, how do we obey Jesus,
Speaker 1: that's where we're gonna get more people into the, into
Speaker 1: the true nature of what it means to be a
Speaker 1: follower of Jesus, not just a ticket to heaven, that's punch,
Speaker 1: but actually like.
Speaker 1: I'm obeying Jesus with my lifestyle and my with my beliefs.
Speaker 1: And so I think there's a lot there. I know
Speaker 1: our dean at Stetzer at Talbot has been going across
Speaker 1: the country in the lead the way tour for Talbot
Speaker 1: Seminary and basically talking about these ideas about there's been
Speaker 1: a renewed interest in the gospel, um, across the country. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's so exciting. I love that too. Like, we're not
Speaker 2: talking about church, we're talking about discipleship in the way
Speaker 2: of Jesus, which is.
Speaker 2: So refreshing. We're actually teaching through the Gospel of Mark
Speaker 2: on Sunday mornings here at Calvary, and just showing like, look,
Speaker 2: Jesus actually came to dismantle this system that was keeping
Speaker 2: people out was so, you know, prejudiced and xenophobic, and
Speaker 2: he came to dismantle this, and he said, I'm, I'm
Speaker 2: showing you the way, you know, Mark's theme of the way,
Speaker 2: Luke's theme of the way, John's theme. So, yeah, it's
Speaker 2: just so refreshing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Paul, thank you for sending in your question through the
Speaker 1: Kwave.com pastor's perspective page. And let's do one more before
Speaker 1: we go to the phones. Joseph, you'll be first up. Michelle.
Speaker 1: She wants to know, uh, she says, I'm a Christian.
Speaker 1: I firmly believe that Jesus is God, as the Bible
Speaker 1: clearly states over and over again in many different ways.
Speaker 1: But in Genesis 1:26, God says to make man in
Speaker 1: our image. And John also tells us that Jesus is
Speaker 1: the word, and the Word was with God. I completely
Speaker 1: understand how God created Himself.
Speaker 1: In the form of a man and put Jesus on
Speaker 1: earth with a body, but I'm confused about how Jesus
Speaker 1: is even considered to be God in the form of
Speaker 1: a man if he already existed in his own spirit
Speaker 1: from the beginning. This leads me to believe that even
Speaker 1: from the beginning, God and Jesus were two separate spirits.
Speaker 1: So I guess my question is, despite what I truly
Speaker 1: believe and know.
Speaker 1: That Jesus is God. How can Jesus be God if
Speaker 1: they are two separate spirits and identities from the very beginning?
Speaker 1: Please help me understand this and ease my mind about
Speaker 1: this confusion. Please help me to answer this question in conversations,
Speaker 1: especially with Jehovah's Witnesses. Char, what do you say to
Speaker 2: Michelle? Yeah, I think many, here's, here's one thing I
Speaker 2: think we just need to be clear about.
Speaker 2: That we don't necessarily understand or wrap our minds around
Speaker 2: the nature of God as Trinitarian, but we accept it as, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, revelation from God. And what the scripture is
Speaker 2: saying is not that there are three different um gods,
Speaker 2: but that God Himself is um communal, that there is
Speaker 2: within the Godhead, Father, son, and spirit. And so,
Speaker 2: Even, you know, and some of these things, you know,
Speaker 2: are just, when we just think about them logically within
Speaker 2: the narrative of scripture, it's like, oh, OK, you know,
Speaker 2: all the ways in which the spirit of God is
Speaker 2: referred to as God, or it could be referred to
Speaker 2: as the spirit of Jesus, the way that the spirit
Speaker 2: shares divine attributes with Yahweh, the way that Jesus shares
Speaker 2: divine attributes with Yahweh. They are all worship, they all
Speaker 2: share these attributes. So we see these things, even though,
Speaker 2: you know, the scripture doesn't say,
Speaker 2: You know, Jesus is God, like right on the nose,
Speaker 2: the way that you maybe the Jehovah's Witness want us
Speaker 2: to produce, you know, or maybe the Mormons want us
Speaker 2: to produce.
Speaker 2: And yet, if you have eyes to see, it really
Speaker 2: is everywhere. You know, I just mentioned a moment ago
Speaker 2: today that we're teaching through the Gospel of Mark on
Speaker 2: Sunday mornings, and it's incredible to see the way that
Speaker 2: Mark is actually developing Yahweh's second exodus that he will perform,
Speaker 2: that these are all the things that Jesus himself is doing.
Speaker 2: He is identifying himself with Yahweh, who will
Speaker 2: Come, who will regather his people, he will heal the blind,
Speaker 2: he will heal the deaf, and he will bring them
Speaker 2: onto the highway of holiness. These are things that see
Speaker 2: that Yahweh will do, and Jesus is the one that
Speaker 2: is doing them, and he's receiving worship, he's receiving declarations
Speaker 2: about his identity. And so we could talk, you know,
Speaker 2: about so many scriptures, we haven't even mentioned the Gospel
Speaker 2: of John yet.
Speaker 2: But I think just taking us back to the beginning,
Speaker 2: just for a moment, right, when God says, you know, come,
Speaker 2: let us make mankind in our image, male and female
Speaker 2: is what he creates. And so when God creates humanity
Speaker 2: in his image, he creates two, not singular, not one,
Speaker 2: and there is within humanity, right, relationship and dynamic and dynamics,
Speaker 2: excuse me, it's not static.
Speaker 2: And so we should understand even from the creation of
Speaker 2: humanity that God Himself, what it means to bear his
Speaker 2: image is to be a communal being.
Speaker 2: And so God creates us after Himself, who is a community,
Speaker 2: and I could go on and on, but, you know, Dave,
Speaker 1: I think the reality is that our minds will never
Speaker 1: be at ease because our minds can't fully comprehend a
Speaker 1: triune God, one God in three unique persons, not separate
Speaker 1: entities altogether, but one God.
Speaker 1: And so there's no perfect analogy that relates to the Trinity,
Speaker 1: and therefore we do take this on faith that we
Speaker 1: have one God in these three persons. And I think
Speaker 1: one of the greatest stories from the Gospel, John, that
Speaker 1: sets up our confidence that Jesus is the true God
Speaker 1: as as working out the will of His Father even
Speaker 1: on earth.
Speaker 1: It's actually in John 10, and it's, it, it's the
Speaker 1: head of when the Jews, uh, are just in rebellion
Speaker 1: against Jesus and pushing back and he's done these miracles and, and,
Speaker 1: and the Jews actually just come flat and ask him,
Speaker 1: how long are you gonna keep in the suspense? Tell us,
Speaker 1: are you the Christ, right? Just tell us, are you
Speaker 1: the one we've been waiting for? And he's like, I've
Speaker 1: done all these miracles and you don't believe. And, and
Speaker 1: he basically says, those who are my father are mine
Speaker 1: and
Speaker 1: And he makes that famous statement in John 10:30 that
Speaker 1: I and the Father are one. And yes, our Joe
Speaker 1: and his friends are going to take that as being
Speaker 1: like they're unified, they're on the same team, but the
Speaker 1: Jews knew exactly what he was saying because they picked
Speaker 1: up stones to stone him and he's like, why are
Speaker 1: you gonna stone me? He's like, What miracle? And they say,
Speaker 1: because you
Speaker 1: A mere man claimed to be God and the Greek
Speaker 1: word they used their theos, which is used only for
Speaker 1: the one true God. And so the Jews knew exactly
Speaker 1: who Jesus was claiming to be as. He wasn't just
Speaker 1: a god, he wasn't just the spirit of God. He
Speaker 1: was God. And, and that was where they just said
Speaker 1: we're done with you.
Speaker 2: Um, I'm trying to remember the book, I think it's
Speaker 2: um
Speaker 2: Gosh, it's not Larry Hurtado, can't remember who it is,
Speaker 2: but uh the book's called the oh, it's Richard Bham,
Speaker 2: the crucified God, and he talks about how, um, you know,
Speaker 2: Jewish monotheism included a Trinitarianism within it, and he points
Speaker 2: out how, I think it's both in First Corinthians, Paul
Speaker 2: quotes the shama.
Speaker 2: And he includes Jesus as Lord in that statement, and
Speaker 2: he doesn't bat an eye, doesn't even unpack it for
Speaker 2: the Corinthians, it just is. And also, when, you know,
Speaker 2: when we consider, you know, we read Philippians too, and
Speaker 2: we think, oh wow, this, this is really cool thing,
Speaker 2: you know, Jesus went on this journey of humility, you know,
Speaker 2: he wasn't with God in the form of God, but
Speaker 2: then he went on this journey of humility, you know,
Speaker 2: to the point of death, and death on the cross.
Speaker 2: Therefore God's highly exaltedative given him.
Speaker 2: Uh, the name which is above every name, and we're like,
Speaker 2: that's cool, Jesus is gonna get a new name, and
Speaker 2: we don't recognize, cause maybe we don't know our Jewish scriptures,
Speaker 2: that the name is Yashem. It's the, the, you know,
Speaker 2: the Jews would not say the name of God, so
Speaker 2: they would only refer to him as the name, and
Speaker 2: he is the name that is above every name. And
Speaker 2: so what Paul is showing there is that Jesus Christ
Speaker 2: shares in the very name of God.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is just astounding stuff that Paul is
Speaker 2: just unpacking for us, you know, here. And so again,
Speaker 2: You know, I, I think the problem is scripture doesn't
Speaker 2: You know, if we don't know our Bibles, and we
Speaker 2: don't understand the historical context of these things, you know,
Speaker 2: and what these things meant to the original hearers, you know,
Speaker 2: we're like, oh, he doesn't say he's got, you know,
Speaker 2: he says he's one, and husbands and wives are one,
Speaker 2: like you said, Dave, you know, and so I think
Speaker 2: the unfortunate thing is that we're forcing our cultural context
Speaker 2: and the way that we use language upon the scriptures,
Speaker 2: and therefore we're blind.
Speaker 2: To the blatant stuff that Jesus is saying here, and I,
Speaker 2: I was just thinking as you were saying it, David,
Speaker 2: it's profound that they're like, tell us plainly if you're
Speaker 2: the Christ, and he goes one better, right? He's like, uh, yeah,
Speaker 2: but you don't even get it. I'm more than that,
Speaker 2: you know, I am Yahweh here presently. It's just astounding.
Speaker 1: Michelle, thank you for sending in your question from Riverside.
Speaker 1: 888-564-6173 is our number, and we're going to go to
Speaker 1: the phones now. Here is Joseph, also in Riverside. Welcome
Speaker 1: to Pastor's Perspective.
Speaker 1: Hey everyone, how's it going? Good, how are you?
Speaker 1: Good.
Speaker 2: Um, so can I just ask my question? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: OK,
Speaker 2: so, um, I was doing work at a monastery today,
Speaker 2: a Catholic one, and
Speaker 2: I didn't think I was gonna get called to go there. Um,
Speaker 2: I grew up Catholic and stuff like that, and, you know,
Speaker 2: I started evangelizing and stuff. So anyway, um,
Speaker 1: I started talking to these guys about my testimony and
Speaker 1: to the point that we had talked about the differences
Speaker 1: in the Catholic and Christian Bible, and I got corrected,
Speaker 1: and he pointed me to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: OK.
Speaker 1: You still there, Joseph? I think we lost you.
Speaker 2: What is the difference
Speaker 2: between the Catholic and Christian
Speaker 1: Bible? What is the difference? Well, just, yeah, that, that
Speaker 1: your phone is cutting out. So Dave, what's the difference
Speaker 1: between the Christian and the Catholic Bible?
Speaker 1: To the best of my knowledge, I was never Catholic,
Speaker 1: but that the Catholic Bible includes the apocrypha, which existed
Speaker 1: um in the time of Jesus, actually, there are Jewish
Speaker 1: historical writings that were translated and actually included in the
Speaker 1: Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, which we call the Septuagate.
Speaker 1: But we don't equate the apocrypha with the Jewish can.
Speaker 1: In other words, they were books that were added on
Speaker 1: and included more for historical reference, um, and I think
Speaker 1: they're included this so they didn't lose that historical reference, not,
Speaker 1: not because they had some significant teaching in them, but
Speaker 1: they're more just the, these are the things that are
Speaker 1: happening in Israel in that gap period when God was silent.
Speaker 1: And so that there are definite certain
Speaker 1: Uh, denominations, Catholicism, and other eastern, uh, denominations that hold
Speaker 1: on to those teachings, but we do not equate them
Speaker 1: to be the same level of
Speaker 1: Canon authority as we would, um, the 66 books of
Speaker 1: the Old Testament and New Testament Bible, but to my knowledge,
Speaker 1: the apocrypha is the main difference in uh in what
Speaker 1: we would have together.
Speaker 1: Any thoughts from you,
Speaker 2: Char? Yeah, no, Dave's right. Um, yeah, I mean, so
Speaker 2: we've got historical books, uh, within the Apocrypha, you think
Speaker 2: about like the Maccabees and it's the history of the
Speaker 2: Uh, Maccabean revolt against the Seleucid Empire, and so, I mean,
Speaker 2: there's just some incredible Jewish history that's there, that's referenced
Speaker 2: later by Josephus and things like that. Um, it's really interesting,
Speaker 2: you know, again, referencing, uh, teaching through the Gospel of Mark,
Speaker 2: even the book of Jubilees, uh, you know, I've been
Speaker 2: reading through that. It is so helpful for understanding.
Speaker 2: The Jewish mindset concerning the Gentiles at that time. And
Speaker 2: so you really get like a deeper insight to like,
Speaker 2: like what's the big deal here? Like, why are they
Speaker 2: treating Jesus this way? He's just helping people, you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: they're Gentiles, but what's the problem? Why, you know, why
Speaker 2: are they so concerned about the washing of hands and,
Speaker 2: and you realize, you know, how the religion
Speaker 2: Religious leaders had taken on the tradition of the elders
Speaker 2: and were actually forcing Israel to practice Levitical like cleanliness
Speaker 2: with washings and ceremonies and all these things. And the
Speaker 2: idea in their mind is that if we keep Levitical righteousness,
Speaker 2: then the kingdom will come, then Messiah will appear. And
Speaker 2: so they're so strict concerning these things. This is all
Speaker 2: to do with questions of fasting that Jesus has asked
Speaker 2: about washing of hands, um,
Speaker 2: You know, coming from the marketplace, and these things are
Speaker 2: happening again and again and then and again, and in
Speaker 2: the book of Jubilees, I mean, there's this retelling of
Speaker 2: the story of Dinah.
Speaker 2: And the application is, if any Jewish family were to
Speaker 2: marry a Gentile, even a converted gentile, they would be
Speaker 2: burned to death or stoned to death. I've got, I
Speaker 2: was quoting it just two weeks ago, and I was
Speaker 2: just blown away by, you know, the, basically, you know,
Speaker 2: the stance of these religious leaders at the time. So,
Speaker 2: all that to say,
Speaker 2: Some of this can be so incredibly helpful for understanding
Speaker 2: cultural context. But again, like Dave said, we don't take
Speaker 2: this as scripture. We would use this in the same
Speaker 2: way that we would use, you know, kind of like
Speaker 2: a um
Speaker 2: A Bible commentary, you know, a contextual commentary, just like, OK,
Speaker 2: this is what people believed at that time, these are
Speaker 2: the practices of the day, super helpful, not authoritative for salvation,
Speaker 2: for following in the way of Jesus or any of
Speaker 2: those things. So, can be really helpful, um, and yeah,
Speaker 2: it probably be good for Christians to read those and
Speaker 2: uh chew the meat, spit out the bones.
Speaker 1: What do you think, Joseph?
Speaker 1: Oh, that
Speaker 2: was
Speaker 1: pretty
Speaker 2: good.
Speaker 1: Um, I guess if I could ask a follow-up question,
Speaker 1: why isn't it
Speaker 2: authoritative?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons why Christians
Speaker 2: Um, do not believe that it's authoritative is because uh
Speaker 2: the Jews themselves did not believe that it was authoritative.
Speaker 2: The canon was already closed.
Speaker 2: Uh, and it's actually only included, as Dave said, in
Speaker 2: the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament. So,
Speaker 2: the Jews themselves did not accept these as authoritative, inspired
Speaker 2: by God, uh, but they were their books, historical books,
Speaker 2: and some of them have some heavy Greek influence in
Speaker 2: them as well, and so, you know, the Hellenistic influence
Speaker 2: in them. Um, but another reason why we as Christians
Speaker 2: do not accept them is because Jesus himself quotes from
Speaker 2: I believe almost every single Old Testament book in his ministry,
Speaker 2: he never quotes from the Apocrypha. Hm.
Speaker 2: And the Jewish writers, as far, or excuse me, the
Speaker 2: New Testament writers, as far as I know, I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm thinking maybe of Jude, quoting from the book of Enoch,
Speaker 2: is the one exception we even have in the New
Speaker 2: Testament to anybody quoting from the apocrypha. And so, uh,
Speaker 2: it does not seem that any of the early church
Speaker 2: considered that this was canon either.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the early church actually didn't even have a complete
Speaker 1: set of what we have today of the apocrypha. So
Speaker 1: it was still, uh, it was still in process of
Speaker 1: how they're collecting the different codics, um, you know, it
Speaker 1: wasn't together like the Old Testament canon was that
Speaker 1: That Jesus and his disciples could reference when they talked
Speaker 1: about the scriptures. They never were referencing the, the apocrypha.
Speaker 1: It was always the prophets or the law that Jesus
Speaker 1: used to explain the Messiah and who he was when
Speaker 1: he would claim the scriptures, what makes you wise to salvation.
Speaker 1: Very good, Joseph, thank you for your phone call today
Speaker 1: on Pastor's Perspective. And now here's Tony calling in from Rialto.
Speaker 1: I need you to turn down your radio please, Tony,
Speaker 1: because I don't want to hear myself talking back to myself.
Speaker 2: What's your question, Brian? What?
Speaker 1: Tony, go for it.
Speaker 1: Go for it.
Speaker 2: OK. How are
Speaker 1: you doing,
Speaker 2: pastors? Doing all right. Excellent show. Uh, I kinda caught everything, uh,
Speaker 2: kind of late, but, uh, my question for you all,
Speaker 2: you know, you hear a lot of people, and I
Speaker 2: run into a lot of people, a lot of times
Speaker 2: they say, you know, you have to keep the commandments,
Speaker 2: you know, and I know, uh, uh, so what I
Speaker 2: wanted to ask you all, what would be your perspective
Speaker 2: on that because when I, I try to explain that.
Speaker 2: When he says, you know, to keep the commandments, I
Speaker 2: know the 10 Commandments are set up for, you know,
Speaker 2: our moral laws and how we should live, but I
Speaker 2: know that, uh, uh, this is just my perspective, and
Speaker 2: I want to hear you all that when he says
Speaker 2: that for me, I look at it that he's saying
Speaker 2: we're under grace now.
Speaker 2: And it should be a thing of, you know, we
Speaker 2: should supersede that law in a sense by love now.
Speaker 2: So it's not that we are commanded to do this,
Speaker 2: it's like we choose to do these things now because, uh,
Speaker 2: laws are like uh stipulations and you know it comes to,
Speaker 2: you know, this is what you have to do when
Speaker 2: you come to a stop.
Speaker 2: I stopped because the law says, but I stopped because
Speaker 2: I want to, because grace says. And so I just
Speaker 2: wanted to hear you all's perspective on how you would
Speaker 2: answer that when people say, Well, you had to keep God's,
Speaker 2: you know, the commandments, you know, and I know he
Speaker 2: says by the law no no flesh shall be justified.
Speaker 2: So what would be your take on this? Oh. Yeah,
Speaker 2: great question, Tony, just.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess the bigger question is what
Speaker 2: is uh a Christian's relationship to the law of Moses?
Speaker 2: And I think we need to remember that the law
Speaker 2: of Moses containing commandments and holidays, traditions, principles in it
Speaker 2: was given to Israel, and this was given to them,
Speaker 2: you know, as their religious law, their judicial law, their culture, right?
Speaker 2: This is what God is presenting to them, um, and yet,
Speaker 2: The law of Moses also represents, as you said, you know,
Speaker 2: especially there in the 10 Commandments, the heart of God,
Speaker 2: the bedrock of society, and God does this, I, you know,
Speaker 2: I love this passage where God says, when you live
Speaker 2: like this,
Speaker 2: The nations around you are actually gonna say, what other
Speaker 2: peoples like these people? They are so righteous in the
Speaker 2: way that they live with one another, you know, the
Speaker 2: way they take care of the poor, and, you know,
Speaker 2: cause all these social justices are, you know, sown through
Speaker 2: the fabric of this, how we treat our neighbor, how
Speaker 2: we forgive sins and debts, and all these kinds of things.
Speaker 2: The nations are gonna look at that and be drawn
Speaker 2: to know the God that gave these laws, the God
Speaker 2: that lives in the midst of these people. And so
Speaker 2: I think we have to, you know, kind of put
Speaker 2: ourselves in in that perspective and understand what it meant
Speaker 2: for them.
Speaker 2: And then understand where we are at now in the story.
Speaker 2: So we understand, as you said, that Jesus has come,
Speaker 2: and he is the fulfillment of the law. And I
Speaker 2: think NT Wright has helped me better than any one
Speaker 2: else articulate, that the law isn't bad, it is a
Speaker 2: sign pointing to something.
Speaker 2: And that something is the person of Jesus Christ. And
Speaker 2: so when Jesus in the sermon on the Mountain was
Speaker 2: talking about that he did not come to abolish the
Speaker 2: law or the prophets, he has come to fulfill them,
Speaker 2: to fill them up, to complete them, we should understand
Speaker 2: that Jesus is the thing that they are all pointing to.
Speaker 2: And so once you've arrived at Jesus, the thing that
Speaker 2: all the signs are pointing to,
Speaker 2: You neither despise the signs, nor do you go back
Speaker 2: to them and say, oh, sign, let me thank you.
Speaker 2: Let me just sit here and and ponder you, right? No,
Speaker 2: you've arrived, and so, you know, stick with Jesus, and
Speaker 2: I love what Paul the Apostle is doing, right? He
Speaker 2: is showing is that Jesus, as you said, you know,
Speaker 2: has given us a new commandment.
Speaker 2: And that is to love our neighbor as ourself. First
Speaker 2: of all, to love God supremely, to love our neighbor
Speaker 2: as ourself. And Paul writes there in Romans, and then
Speaker 2: he also alludes to this in Galatians as well, that
Speaker 2: to love our neighbor as ourself actually fulfills the whole law.
Speaker 2: It actually goes, it, it encapsulates all that the law
Speaker 2: was after, and as Paul says,
Speaker 2: Something even better happens now. The spirit of God comes
Speaker 2: into us as individual, and as individuals and teaches us
Speaker 2: to follow God's law from our hearts.
Speaker 2: Because you've probably noticed this in your life, as I have,
Speaker 2: sometimes there just isn't an answer or a law for
Speaker 2: the right thing to do in my life. So what
Speaker 2: do I do? Well, Jesus said, consult your own conscience,
Speaker 2: you know, um, what would you want somebody else to
Speaker 2: do for you, right? What does it mean to
Speaker 2: Love someone. When someone does evil to you, what does
Speaker 2: it mean to do something that is outstanding and surprises
Speaker 2: the world around you? What does it mean to love
Speaker 2: faithfully like Yahweh? What does it mean to be a peacemaker, right?
Speaker 2: These are the things that we have to consider in
Speaker 2: our own lives and our own context, and this is
Speaker 2: actually how the law of the new
Speaker 2: Covenant works, right? The spirit working in and through us
Speaker 2: in our context, my life, my relationships, and like you said,
Speaker 2: it actually does better than the law ever could have imagined.
Speaker 2: Dave
Speaker 1: King.
Speaker 1: You know, I think just two thoughts to add on, um, one,
Speaker 1: When Jesus was here, not only did he fulfill the law,
Speaker 1: but he also said,
Speaker 1: You know, you've heard it said, but I tell you,
Speaker 1: Jesus actually raised the standard for us to, to not
Speaker 1: just get at the specific letter, but get to the
Speaker 1: heart of the spirit that he wanted us to live out.
Speaker 1: Then he also said, if you love me, you'll keep
Speaker 1: my commandments. And so Jesus took the idea of obeying.
Speaker 1: The teachings of him and obviously he was reflecting the
Speaker 1: teachings of the law and the prophets before him as
Speaker 1: as a relational response. So no longer was it just legalistic,
Speaker 1: but now it actually was the because I believe who
Speaker 1: Jesus is, because I love him, I'm going to obey
Speaker 1: these commands. And so, um, that becomes my now motivation
Speaker 1: in the process. Very good, Tony, hope that helps. Thanks
Speaker 1: for calling in today. All right, man?
Speaker 2: Hey man, I appreciate you all. You'll be blessed. Thank you. Yeah,
Speaker 2: bless you too.
Speaker 1: 888-564-6173 is our number, and it's just about break time,
Speaker 1: so we'll wait till we come back to take another call.
Speaker 1: 888-564-6173 is our number, and we've got Char Broderson, the
Speaker 1: lead pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, in the studio.
Speaker 1: You can find out more about Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa
Speaker 1: at CCCM.com. Sunday morning services are at 8:30 and 11. Again, CCCM.com,
Speaker 1: and Dave Keen is here too. He's one of the professors.
Speaker 1: at Biola University, and he's also a teaching pastor at
Speaker 1: Cornerstone Community Church in San Clemente. Find out more about
Speaker 1: that church at cornerstoneOnline.org. What time are your services at? Uh,
Speaker 1: 9 and 10:45.9 and 10:45. Very cool. All right. So
Speaker 1: check that out. If you're looking for a church in
Speaker 1: that area, cornerstoneline.org. 888-564-6173 is the number to call. We
Speaker 1: can't wait to hear from you. Who do we have
Speaker 1: coming up? We've got Pebbles.
Speaker 1: We've got Andrew, we've got Thomas, and we're waiting for
Speaker 1: you to call 888-564-6173. Remember, you can send in your
Speaker 1: questions online too using the Pastor's perspective Facebook Messenger, or
Speaker 1: you can DM us on the pastor's perspective Instagram, or
Speaker 1: you can go to Kwave.com and look for the pastor's
Speaker 1: perspective page, fill out the form, and that gets your
Speaker 1: question to us. But the best way to get an
Speaker 1: answer is to call 888-564-6173. We shall return.
Speaker 1: Hey, we're back on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number
Speaker 1: to call. My name is Brian Perez. Char Broderson and
Speaker 1: Dave Keene are here to answer your questions for the
Speaker 1: next 25 minutes. 888-564-6173. Ready for another round, guys?
Speaker 2: Here we go.
Speaker 1: Let's do it. Pebbles and Riverside, welcome to Pastor's Perspective.
Speaker 1: Hi, hi. OK,
Speaker 2: I have a question. Are
Speaker 1: Christians gonna be in the tribulation, or are they gonna
Speaker 1: be raptured before then?
Speaker 1: What do you think, Dave?
Speaker 1: I definitely believe that um scripture presents a couple different
Speaker 1: Readings, in other words, I, I believe there's Christians who
Speaker 1: study scripture and believe wholeheartedly that the church will be
Speaker 1: taken out before the tribulation, but I also believe there
Speaker 1: are Christians who read the same scriptures and see that
Speaker 1: Christians will come to a point of suffering and definitely
Speaker 1: I think there are seasons of the early church that
Speaker 1: resembled what the tribulation is. Uh, personally, I think that, uh,
Speaker 1: scripture leans on the side at
Speaker 1: That the Holy Spirit and the church are gonna be
Speaker 1: removed from physically being present to allow the evil one
Speaker 1: to reign as much as he will, but I do
Speaker 1: believe there will be people that come to faith during
Speaker 1: the tribulation that will
Speaker 1: Become, you know, Christians here on Earth during that time.
Speaker 1: So I'm definitely not the expert in that one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it, I, I love that you pointed out, Dave.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is one of those areas of scripture
Speaker 2: that just really isn't clear, right? And so we, you know,
Speaker 2: it's an open-handed issue. It's something that we debate, you know,
Speaker 2: it's kind of a a family issue, we debate it
Speaker 2: in the house, but this is not what we want
Speaker 2: to be known for, you know, like,
Speaker 2: Well, what's your view, you know, well, those people, you know,
Speaker 2: we reject them because their views different, you know, we
Speaker 2: want to be known for our love, we want to
Speaker 2: be known for, you know, standing on the tenants of
Speaker 2: the faith, you know, like what the apostles creed proclaims. Um,
Speaker 2: and so, the one of the reasons I want to
Speaker 2: bring up for, I think just some of the confusion is, um,
Speaker 2: some take the thief in the night passages as passages, um,
Speaker 2: that are talking about.
Speaker 2: The rapture. But the interesting thing is when you look
Speaker 2: at these, they seem to be speaking actually of taken
Speaker 2: away in judgment. And so again, that there's, you know,
Speaker 2: the jury isn't out on this one. What are these
Speaker 2: passages about? Are they about judgment, or are they about salvation,
Speaker 2: you know, being pulled out of these um trying
Speaker 2: Um, tribulations in these troubles. I think one thing that
Speaker 2: we just need to be aware of, and I'm glad
Speaker 2: that they brought this up, we need to be aware
Speaker 2: of a Christianity that is devoid of suffering, right? Or
Speaker 2: if we suffer, then it means that this thing isn't,
Speaker 2: you know, uh, you know, this is a whole crock, right?
Speaker 2: Because the way of Jesus is the way of the cross.
Speaker 2: It's the way of suffering. It is a way of rejection,
Speaker 2: it's a way
Speaker 2: Um, of death. And so, you know, if our whole
Speaker 2: basis for believing in a pre-tribulational rapture is because we
Speaker 2: believe that God, you know, doesn't allow us to suffer,
Speaker 2: then we need to read the Bible again, you know,
Speaker 2: the Bible is actually from cover to cover, you know,
Speaker 2: is filled with suffering of righteous people, and yet God's commitment.
Speaker 2: Faithful love to them. So I think those are just
Speaker 2: things that we need to be aware of. Now, when it, uh,
Speaker 2: just one more thing, when it does come to, you know,
Speaker 2: there's one passage in scripture that seems to be kind
Speaker 2: of the linchpin for pre-tribulational views, and that is a
Speaker 2: passage in First Corinthians where Paul is talking about those
Speaker 2: who have, uh, died, who were believers in Jesus Christ,
Speaker 2: and he talks about
Speaker 2: You know, how they're not gone forever, no, no, they're
Speaker 2: with Jesus currently, and when Jesus returns, he says, we
Speaker 2: will be caught up, um, rapturros is the term there, uh,
Speaker 2: we will be caught up to meet the Lord in
Speaker 2: the air, and we will then forever be with the Lord.
Speaker 2: And so the question people have is, is this the rapture,
Speaker 2: the catching up, the taking away from the tribulation that's happening,
Speaker 2: or is this like what happened in the Greco-Roman context,
Speaker 2: when the king returned uh to inherit his kingdom.
Speaker 2: Uh, you know, or a victor, you know, return from battle,
Speaker 2: the people would go out of the city, and they
Speaker 2: would usher in the king and the reign. And so some,
Speaker 2: you know, reading ancient biblical context would say, actually, this
Speaker 2: is what's happening in this passage. Paul's talking about how
Speaker 2: we're gonna receive Christ and the saints, and we're gonna
Speaker 2: come in, you know, and and
Speaker 2: Receive the kingdom of God there and then. So again,
Speaker 2: these are just kind of the differing opinions on this stuff,
Speaker 2: and this is fun stuff to talk about and wonder and,
Speaker 2: you know, reference different passages, but it's not something that
Speaker 2: we divide over. And
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 1: think we don't do ourselves a service when we think
Speaker 1: of the end times as a sequential countdown and we
Speaker 1: check off every war and rumor of of war as
Speaker 1: this is the end times, and I think
Speaker 1: When Christ was telling us about those signs, it was,
Speaker 1: there were wars and rumors of wars already, and his
Speaker 1: point was, live faithfully and ready that I could come
Speaker 1: at any time. So that really is where our mindset
Speaker 1: should be. It it shouldn't be focused on
Speaker 1: You know, how close to the end times are we?
Speaker 1: It should be like, I want to be faithful every day,
Speaker 1: and I want to live expecting Jews to return every day.
Speaker 1: And so I'm in this now, but not yet. I'm
Speaker 1: in this sense of just being faithful to do what
Speaker 1: God's called me to do now. Looking forward to that day,
Speaker 1: he returns. And, and unfortunately, as I read, especially First Peter,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of suffering that we're called to endure
Speaker 1: along the way.
Speaker 1: Pebbles, thank you for your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective.
Speaker 1: And now let's go to Cyprus. Here is Andrew. Thanks, Andrew,
Speaker 1: for calling
Speaker 2: 888-564-6173.
Speaker 1: You're on with Char Broderson and Dave Keene.
Speaker 2: Hey, how's it going? Good afternoon. I just had a
Speaker 2: general question about um.
Speaker 2: How do I put this? Um, if Jesus actually spoke
Speaker 2: of supporting sacrificing animals, and then specifically, I wanted to
Speaker 2: focus on the temple. Uh, the big speech in the
Speaker 2: temple is, uh, he talks about the money, but I
Speaker 2: would love to you, for you guys to address the temple,
Speaker 2: if I'm not mistaken. The temple itself was supporting.
Speaker 2: A quarter of a million sacrifices of animals, and there
Speaker 2: were the blood canals, things like that. I would love
Speaker 2: for you to address that if that's true historically for
Speaker 2: the temple. And then if that's true, of course, then
Speaker 2: it would be Jesus speaking about the sacrificing of the animals,
Speaker 2: not the money.
Speaker 2: Hm. Yeah. I mean the anger. Yeah, Andrew, I think that,
Speaker 2: you know, an interesting thing here is, you know, when
Speaker 2: Jesus comes to Israel, is he is not actually critical
Speaker 2: of the sacrificial system, because this is a system that he, Yahweh,
Speaker 2: in the flesh actually gave to the people of Israel.
Speaker 2: What he is criticizing is the way that they have
Speaker 2: corrupted it, and they have made
Speaker 2: Um, this space in the temple that actually was to
Speaker 2: bring the Gentiles in, they've filled it and made it
Speaker 2: basically a moneymaker, and they've actually made no room for
Speaker 2: the Gentiles, um, to actually be present, worshiping and knowing
Speaker 2: the one true God. So this is what Jesus is
Speaker 2: criticizing in these moments there, um, at the temple, and
Speaker 2: it's not the sacrificial system. That would be very, um,
Speaker 2: You know, mixed signals that God is giving, you know,
Speaker 2: and remember, uh, maybe if you were listening earlier in
Speaker 2: the show, we, we pointed out that in the sermon
Speaker 2: on the Mount, you know, there's a lot of confusion about, OK,
Speaker 2: who is this rabbi? What's he doing? You know, is
Speaker 2: he just, you know, throwing out the whole Jewish system?
Speaker 2: And Jesus says, hey, some of you are thinking that
Speaker 2: here I am to throw out the whole Jewish system.
Speaker 2: I'm not, I am here to fulfill it. And so,
Speaker 2: Remember, Jesus is called by John, the Lamb of God
Speaker 2: who takes away the sin of the world, and all
Speaker 2: of this is being set up in the biblical story,
Speaker 2: going back to Genesis 22, about this lamb that will
Speaker 2: be provided by God for sacrifice, um.
Speaker 2: Later in Exodus, about the Passover lamb, whose blood will
Speaker 2: protect God's people from the angel of death, and, you know, who's,
Speaker 2: you know, they are to eat completely, to consume it completely,
Speaker 2: it's supposed to give them, you know, energy as they
Speaker 2: exit out of Egypt. So, all of this is set
Speaker 2: up in the biblical narrative, all pointing to what Jesus
Speaker 2: would do on
Speaker 2: The cross. And so we believe as Christians, that that
Speaker 2: need for sacrifice was ultimately fulfilled through Jesus Christ. So
Speaker 2: we don't practice animal sacrifice, that's done now, because it's
Speaker 2: been fulfilled by Jesus, but Jesus wasn't here to criticize,
Speaker 2: you know, the actual animal sacrifices.
Speaker 2: And you had a question about, I think, you know,
Speaker 2: did Jesus eat meat? Well, we know that he at
Speaker 2: least ate fish. That's what we know. So, there isn't
Speaker 2: a mention of anything else. I would say this though,
Speaker 2: being a good Jewish boy who kept the law perfectly,
Speaker 2: we believe, he would have observed Passover, and it was
Speaker 2: required that every family have a lamb for themselves, and
Speaker 2: the whole family was to consume it. And so,
Speaker 2: Uh, we believe, according to Jewish tradition that also Jesus
Speaker 2: would have eaten lamb, and he lived like a, you know,
Speaker 2: normal Jew of his day.
Speaker 1: You know, you, you talk about the temple episode there, Andrew,
Speaker 1: and you could see a theme throughout the ministry of
Speaker 1: Jesus that he is most righteously angry at those who
Speaker 1: hindered others from coming to faith.
Speaker 1: You know, the, the, the legalistic system of the Pharisees,
Speaker 1: those who would tempt children and lead them astray. In
Speaker 1: other words, these money changers now in the temple were
Speaker 1: making people bring their money in and collect it or
Speaker 1: change it into a temple coin, just adding on another
Speaker 1: burden upon the people. And so what we're seeing here
Speaker 1: is Jesus is really, I think, more upset at
Speaker 1: The hindrance of peoples, the Gentiles, especially in this case,
Speaker 1: from not being able to worship God. And I think
Speaker 1: that's why he has this righteous anger.
Speaker 1: What do you think, Andrew?
Speaker 2: Oh, so my, my original question, I love all that,
Speaker 2: but I would love for you to answer this. How
Speaker 2: would Jesus sacrifice an animal?
Speaker 2: He wouldn't. He wasn't a Levite.
Speaker 2: OK, so if he wouldn't sacrifice an animal, then, um,
Speaker 2: And you were saying that animal sacrifice doesn't happen. 3
Speaker 2: to 4 billion animals are killed, killed every year for
Speaker 2: consumption on Earth right now. I wanted to, I want
Speaker 2: to listen to that. I, I, I think you misunderstood
Speaker 2: what I meant. I meant we as Christians don't.
Speaker 2: You recognize, you know, a, a sacrificial system with the
Speaker 2: need for animal sacrifice. I wasn't, you know, refuting the
Speaker 2: fact that we still consume animals allow you to, you
Speaker 2: can answer however you want when you, when I get
Speaker 2: off the air as far as how Jesus would sacrifice
Speaker 2: in detail. And if he said he wouldn't, then that's
Speaker 2: a whole another thing. And then the other thing is,
Speaker 2: do you deny that the temple itself was set up
Speaker 2: for a quarter of a million animal sacrifice with the
Speaker 2: blood canals, very large blood canals. Do you deny that
Speaker 2: on the air?
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know that fact, so I wouldn't, I
Speaker 2: would neither confirm nor deny. Well,
Speaker 1: the, the system that I think we were talking about
Speaker 1: earlier is they still were practicing sacrificial, you know, the
Speaker 1: sacrificial system at that time, so there would have been
Speaker 1: the means to take the blood out of the temple.
Speaker 1: There would have been very large corrals next to the temple.
Speaker 1: Jesus didn't come away at this moment to do away
Speaker 1: with the sacrificiale system until his death and resurrection gave
Speaker 1: a new covenant. So,
Speaker 1: The, the sacrificial Coven was still present at that
Speaker 1: time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Andrew, um, you know, it sounds like you've got something,
Speaker 2: you know, that's really heavy on your heart, a deep
Speaker 2: conviction about, you know, the consumption of animals in these
Speaker 2: things and
Speaker 2: Um, yeah, I, I would think what God, where you
Speaker 2: would align with, you know, the heart of God in scripture,
Speaker 2: is the overconsumption and waste that humans use. Um, you know,
Speaker 2: so God actually scripture says that God has given us
Speaker 2: richly all things to enjoy, that the earth is filled
Speaker 2: with abundance that God has provided for us to eat
Speaker 2: and to nourish our bodies, and God clearly gives us
Speaker 2: animals to eat, that's found actually in the Noaic covenant.
Speaker 2: And Paul later will say that actually there's gonna be
Speaker 2: a time, you know, in uh the latter years where
Speaker 2: people are gonna come along and they're gonna give these,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of new rules saying that, you know,
Speaker 2: we cannot eat meat at all. They're gonna refuse all
Speaker 2: these things thinking that this is the issue, but actually
Speaker 2: the deeper issue of humans is that we are turned
Speaker 2: in on ourselves because of sin.
Speaker 2: And we are separated from God. And so what we
Speaker 2: need is we need redemption. We need someone to bring
Speaker 2: us back to God, and that's actually what the Bible
Speaker 2: is about. It's not focusing on, you know, a sacrificial
Speaker 2: system or, you know, just one of these issues that
Speaker 2: we consume too many animals and we're wasteful and these things.
Speaker 2: It's the deeper need of human hearts.
Speaker 2: To be brought back to the God who is love,
Speaker 2: the God who is a mercy, the God who is just,
Speaker 2: the God who is righteous. We need to be redeemed,
Speaker 2: and Jesus Christ is that redemption. He became a human being,
Speaker 2: he lived the full human experience, suffered, died, rose again,
Speaker 2: and ascended.
Speaker 2: In order to bring humans back into God's story, to
Speaker 2: be his image bearers, to be his partners, and to
Speaker 2: spread his kingdom to the ends of the earth. That's
Speaker 2: what the Bible's actually about. And so, I would just
Speaker 2: encourage you just, you know, with this topic, you know,
Speaker 2: it sounds like it's really important, and, you know, kind
Speaker 2: of heavy on your heart, um, but maybe just to
Speaker 2: go back to scripture and and just ask yourself, you know,
Speaker 2: have I kind of maybe missed the point of what
Speaker 2: the Bible is getting at here?
Speaker 1: Andrew, thanks for calling us today here on Pastor's Perspective.
Speaker 1: Now we'll go to Laurie in Beaumont, listening on FM
Speaker 1: 107.9 K wave. Hey, Laurie, what's up?
Speaker 2: Hey, good afternoon, pastors. Thank you for taking my call.
Speaker 2: Um, something I often think about is our command to
Speaker 2: love one another, including our enemies. Now, when it comes
Speaker 2: to things like those who wish the destruction of Israel
Speaker 2: or those who in various countries behead Christians, uh, the Holocaust,
Speaker 2: how do we, how do we apply that?
Speaker 2: That we can look at those who perpetrate such evil.
Speaker 2: And say, I love you. Hm. Yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I, I think in these instances, I
Speaker 2: think we need to kind of differentiate a a few
Speaker 2: things here, you know, the Bible is never commanding us
Speaker 2: to look at evil, you know, gross wickedness, um, humans
Speaker 2: afflicting other humans and to respond and say, well, I
Speaker 2: love you, right? That is not love, um, and we
Speaker 2: can read even in, you know, the psalter, right, the
Speaker 2: songs and prayers of Israel.
Speaker 2: That the psalmist will actually say, God, bring justice, bring
Speaker 2: judgment in these situations, you know, people are doing wrong and,
Speaker 2: you know, wanting the downfall of others, and we ask
Speaker 2: that you would intervene, that you would show yourself, uh,
Speaker 2: to be righteous and just and true. And so I,
Speaker 2: we can pray those things, and I think we do
Speaker 2: pray that as we pray the Lord's prayer, your kingdom come,
Speaker 2: your will be done on earth as it is in heaven,
Speaker 2: but then there is
Speaker 2: You know, these commands, as you said, to love our enemies.
Speaker 2: So practically, how do we do that? And I think sometimes, right, like,
Speaker 2: you know, and the examples that you gave, you know,
Speaker 2: these are things that are very far removed from you, right? Like,
Speaker 2: uh uh Yeah. There's probably nobody in your life right
Speaker 2: now that's trying to behead you or, you know, once
Speaker 2: your demise in this way that you're describing. So, we're
Speaker 2: talking about big global issues where you and I will
Speaker 2: probably never sit in a room with these people.
Speaker 2: And have the opportunity to practice the kind of love
Speaker 2: that Jesus commands us to practice as God's people. So,
Speaker 2: we need to live that out with one another, we
Speaker 2: need to live that out in our cultural context, but
Speaker 2: I think what we can do for these global issues
Speaker 2: is we can pray.
Speaker 2: And we can actually pray that these people would come
Speaker 2: to know the knowledge of the truth. We should pray that.
Speaker 2: And I think it was CS Lewis that actually made
Speaker 2: this recommendation, I can't remember, but it's really difficult to
Speaker 2: hate somebody that you're praying for, and that you're actually
Speaker 2: praying goodness for salvation for, and I think the more
Speaker 2: that you invest in that kind of prayer for your enemies,
Speaker 2: the more you will come to want their good.
Speaker 2: The more you will come to want their redemption, their salvation.
Speaker 2: And so I think that's a practical way that you
Speaker 2: and I can practice a different kind of mindset, and
Speaker 2: I would say this is God's mindset. He says, do
Speaker 2: I delight in the death of the wicked? No, I
Speaker 2: don't want them to just perish. I want them to turn.
Speaker 2: I want them to repent. And so this is a
Speaker 2: way that we can actually practice God's kind of love
Speaker 2: for our enemies.
Speaker 2: Dave,
Speaker 1: I think
Speaker 1: there's in our Western culture, we have such um.
Speaker 1: An unawareness of the suffering that's going around the on
Speaker 1: in the world right now. And so, Laurie, thank you
Speaker 1: for for recognizing that there are Christians today that are
Speaker 1: that are dying for their faith.
Speaker 1: But if we go back to the, to the teachings of,
Speaker 1: of Peter and his epistle, uh, First Peter 4:19 says,
Speaker 1: so then, those who suffer according to God's will, should
Speaker 1: commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
Speaker 1: In other words,
Speaker 1: It is God's will sometimes that this suffering happens, and
Speaker 1: so we have to say, God, what good?
Speaker 1: can come out of this? What, what, what is, what
Speaker 1: are you doing? And that's very, very difficult for those
Speaker 1: of us who have gone through tragedy, those who have
Speaker 1: gone through suffering.
Speaker 1: And in some ways, the best we can do is
Speaker 1: to pray. Other times, we may be in a place
Speaker 1: where you're called to forgive. You know, Corey Tamboone talks
Speaker 1: about in her journey of, of ministry after being freed
Speaker 1: from a concentration camp, coming face to face with one
Speaker 1: of the soldiers that was present when her sister was
Speaker 1: killed and having to shake his hand and just the
Speaker 1: The, the, the, the shock of that and the and
Speaker 1: the struggle that she had to give forgiveness. This is
Speaker 1: not an easy thing to do, but it is a
Speaker 1: God thing. And that's why I love how Peter just
Speaker 1: says you should commit themselves to your faithful Creator because
Speaker 1: in those moments of suffering,
Speaker 1: In these moments where we're confronting the injustice and the
Speaker 1: suffering of the world, the best we could do is
Speaker 1: to say, God, I want you to change me so
Speaker 1: that I can express who you truly are to those
Speaker 1: around me.
Speaker 1: Laurie, what do you think?
Speaker 2: Good, good answers. Um, I, I would pray that I
Speaker 2: could live up to those standards. Yeah, I think for
Speaker 2: any of us, Laurie, too, these are things, these are muscles,
Speaker 2: spiritual muscles that we have to exercise, right? Like Dave
Speaker 2: was saying, like for Corey Timboom, like,
Speaker 2: She would have never thought that she was able to
Speaker 2: do this, and yet she had lived her life as
Speaker 2: a faithful follower of Jesus. And so when it came
Speaker 2: to this critical moment in her life, like, am I
Speaker 2: gonna forgive an actual enemy of mine, she was able
Speaker 2: to do it by the power of the spirit working
Speaker 2: in her. That's true for all of us. None of
Speaker 2: us just step out, you know, and just can do this,
Speaker 2: you know, miraculously, that's not how God works. He says,
Speaker 2: you follow me.
Speaker 2: You follow my way of being. You put into practice
Speaker 2: my teachings, and guess what? When it comes down to it,
Speaker 2: the brass tacks of these difficult things where you say, oh,
Speaker 2: I could never forgive that. I could never do that,
Speaker 2: you will do that because you have been walking with Jesus,
Speaker 2: and you have been in step with the Holy Spirit,
Speaker 2: and he is alive and at work and you, and
Speaker 2: that's how we are transformed by the spirit.
Speaker 1: Laurie, thanks for calling today on Pastor's Perspective. Now here's
Speaker 1: Carmen in Upland. Welcome to the program, Carmen. How can
Speaker 1: we help you?
Speaker 2: Yes, hi, thank
Speaker 1: you
Speaker 2: for taking
Speaker 1: my
Speaker 2: call. You're welcome. I have a question about the end times.
Speaker 2: I know you mentioned it a couple of answers ago,
Speaker 2: but are there any more prophecy that needs to be
Speaker 2: fulfilled to let us know Jesus is really on our
Speaker 2: way back, you know how you were growing up and
Speaker 2: everybody would say, uh, Jesus is coming soon. They've been
Speaker 2: saying it for years, but is there any more prophecy
Speaker 2: that needs to be fulfilled? That's what I wanna know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's a great question, Carmen. You know, I,
Speaker 2: I grew up, um.
Speaker 2: In a church movement where we used to say that
Speaker 2: all the time, and our pastors would, uh, often get
Speaker 2: up and, you know, kind of do what we, what
Speaker 2: we call these prophecy updates and
Speaker 2: You know, Dave kind of referenced this earlier, but, you know, it's,
Speaker 2: we think that there's kind of this divine timeline that
Speaker 2: we can follow, so we can know, OK, only 2
Speaker 2: more left, you know, kind of like a, a thermometer,
Speaker 2: you know, raising money, like, all right, you know, if
Speaker 2: we just get to this point, then it's critical mass,
Speaker 2: and then he comes, and Jesus actually says,
Speaker 2: That's not how it works. Don't do that. And so,
Speaker 2: you know, part of this is scripture and the way
Speaker 2: that prophecy works is just so fascinating because there's actually
Speaker 2: prophecies that we look at and we think, oh, this
Speaker 2: is what's gonna happen, you know, in the millennial reign.
Speaker 2: This is what's gonna happen at the end, and the
Speaker 2: biblical writers in the New Testament telling us, oh, this
Speaker 2: is already what's happened.
Speaker 2: You know, so you, you know how people, you know,
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago, all about the blood moons
Speaker 2: and the blood moons. Do you remember this? This was happening. Oh,
Speaker 2: the blood moons, OK, so, well, well then that's the
Speaker 2: end times. Well, Peter actually quotes a blood moon passage
Speaker 2: on the day of Pentecost, that was 2000 years ago.
Speaker 2: And he says, this is exactly what Joe was talking about,
Speaker 2: the coming of the spirit, you know, mighty signs in
Speaker 2: the heavens and on the earth. This is it. The
Speaker 2: spirit is here, this new work that was promised is
Speaker 2: being fulfilled. And so,
Speaker 2: Sometimes we're looking at biblical prophecy, thinking that like, oh, it's,
Speaker 2: we're waiting for this to happen, and the biblical writers saying, actually,
Speaker 2: Jesus did this. This actually is what part of his work.
Speaker 2: And so I think we just, all that to say,
Speaker 2: we need to be careful when it comes to biblical
Speaker 2: prophecy and trying to find that um follow a divine
Speaker 2: timeline like that, cause what we might find is actually,
Speaker 2: you know, oh,
Speaker 2: Jesus actually says that he fulfilled that prophecy, and I
Speaker 2: think that it's still to come, or the New Testament
Speaker 2: writers say that actually happened here, and I'm thinking that
Speaker 2: it's in the future. So, you know, this just will
Speaker 2: help us, uh, discern, you know, what the story of
Speaker 2: the Bible is actually about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would just say, Carmen, live, live with the
Speaker 1: expectation that Jesus can come back any day because then
Speaker 1: you're gonna be doing the right things now.
Speaker 1: God's calling us to be faithful, and I really do
Speaker 1: believe even the apostles thought Jesus was coming back in
Speaker 1: their lifetime. They, they were saying, all right, let's go.
Speaker 1: And I think we need to have that same expectation. Carmen,
Speaker 1: thanks for your phone call. We are out of time
Speaker 1: on today's episode of Pastor's Perspective. Got a lot of
Speaker 1: phone calls in, a lot of questions. That was great.
Speaker 1: Thank you guys for participating.
Speaker 1: We'll be back tomorrow between 3 and 4 p.m. and
Speaker 1: would love to hear from you. If you were watching
Speaker 1: on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram. Thank you for doing that. Tomorrow,
Speaker 1: call in, won't you please, at 888-564-6173. We open up
Speaker 1: the phone lines about 7 minutes before 3 o'clock. Char
Speaker 1: Broderson from Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa is here today. You
Speaker 1: can find out more about CCCM.
Speaker 1: At CCCM.com. And our guest was Dave Keene. He's a
Speaker 1: professor at Biola University and also a, uh, teaching pastor
Speaker 1: at Cornerstone Community Church in San Clemente. You can find
Speaker 1: out more about Cornerstone Community Church online at cornerstoneonline.org. God
Speaker 1: bless you guys. We'll talk to you tomorrow on Pastor's Perspective.