Speaker 1: Hey guys, what's up? Thank you so much for listening
Speaker 1: and watching Pastor's Perspective. I'm Brian Perez. We are here
Speaker 1: live on this Monday, the 9th of June, 888-564-6173 is
Speaker 1: the number to call 888-564-6173. Got a question about.
Speaker 1: The Bible, the Christian faith. Maybe you heard something at
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Speaker 1: so I think you should call us at 888-564-6173.
Speaker 1: Mike Chaddick, the senior pastor of Image Church in Charlotte, uh, no,
Speaker 1: San Juan Capos,
Speaker 2: the
Speaker 1: other image,
Speaker 2: the original, the original. That's right. Let's be clear.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: Image Church Best Coast is, uh, here today. How you doing,
Speaker 1: Mike
Speaker 2: Chadick? I am doing wonderful. It's always a joy to
Speaker 2: be here in one of my favorite times of the week.
Speaker 1: Yay! Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: always good to have you here. CharbRoderson from Calvary Chapel,
Speaker 1: Costa Mesa will be joining us shortly, and if you
Speaker 1: have
Speaker 1: Question for us, you can call, you can also write
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Speaker 1: the question or fill out the form and get your
Speaker 1: question to us. We will get to the phones in
Speaker 1: just a little bit with Luz in San Diego, but first,
Speaker 1: here's a question that was sent in online. This is
Speaker 1: from Paul. What do we make of the fact that
Speaker 1: in John 7, Jesus told his brothers he wasn't going
Speaker 1: to the festival, but later, he went anyway.
Speaker 1: And then in, in Luke 24, he acted as if
Speaker 1: he was going to leave the two disciples on the
Speaker 1: road to Emmaus, but he went with them at their urging. Mike,
Speaker 1: what do you
Speaker 1: say?
Speaker 2: It's an interesting question. Um, I, I don't know. I,
Speaker 2: I guess I'm not seeing the problem. I mean, I,
Speaker 2: I guess more with the John 7, you could say
Speaker 2: there's a contradiction. Jesus said, I'm not going up to
Speaker 2: this festival, you go. Um, and then Jesus apparently changes
Speaker 2: his mind and goes at a later time. I don't,
Speaker 2: I don't see a contradiction other than if you're, if
Speaker 2: somebody assumes by Jesus saying, I'm not going now, that
Speaker 2: I'm not going ever, I, I guess that might be,
Speaker 2: but again, that's reading into it a little bit.
Speaker 2: Um, but one thing I think we know about the
Speaker 2: gospels as we look at the life and ministry of Jesus,
Speaker 2: is he's always following a divine timeline for everything. He
Speaker 2: is the, he's the quintessential man of the spirit, and
Speaker 2: so he is always in divine rhythm. So that means
Speaker 2: not simply, oh, like a lot of us Christians would say, oh, Lord,
Speaker 2: should I go to this festival or should I not?
Speaker 2: Uh, for Jesus, it's not simply should I go or
Speaker 2: should I not, but when should I go? Who should
Speaker 2: I go with? And so, and again, I think Jesus
Speaker 2: is balancing this whole thing of he's not wanting to
Speaker 2: draw a crowd and all that, so he kind of
Speaker 2: lets the crowds initially get there. People are looking around. Hey,
Speaker 2: is Jesus here, that guy, that miracle worker guy who's
Speaker 2: kind of causing a little bit of stir because, you know,
Speaker 2: John 7, this is early on in his ministry, and
Speaker 2: then Jesus kind of secretly goes up later. So John 7,
Speaker 2: I see no problem, and then, uh, in
Speaker 2: And, uh,
Speaker 2: And Luke 24, once again, the road to amaze, I,
Speaker 2: I don't see a problem, and, and technically, if I
Speaker 2: recall Char, um, it doesn't say Jesus said, I'm not
Speaker 2: going any further. It's actually the narrator, it's actually Luke saying,
Speaker 2: and he would have continued going, but he was so, again,
Speaker 2: the narrator's just saying, and it may simply mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: Jesus is like, I'm gonna keep going unless you invite me,
Speaker 2: and you invited me, so I'm going. So again, I,
Speaker 2: I don't see a problem there. I think it's interesting, obviously.
Speaker 2: Uh, once again, if we wanted to get into like
Speaker 2: doctrine and theology, um, the hypostatic union, Jesus is fully God, yes,
Speaker 2: but he's also fully human. And, you know, uh, at
Speaker 2: one moment he's like, yeah, I'll go up here, and
Speaker 2: then a few moments later I'm gonna go over there
Speaker 2: and I, I don't see a contradiction or a problem.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you have any comment you would
Speaker 2: make Char
Speaker 1: uh doctrinal doctrinal side, but I love what you're saying
Speaker 1: just about the practical side of, you know, remember the,
Speaker 1: the documents that we call the gospels, these are um.
Speaker 1: There's stories, but there's principles underneath. So Jesus is the
Speaker 1: perfect disciple. He is the, the example of what it means,
Speaker 1: you know, as you said, to be led by the spirit.
Speaker 1: He is the true evangelist. He is the incarnate word
Speaker 1: and so he is the example for us of what
Speaker 1: this looks like to be led of the spirit. And
Speaker 1: so here's a great example of that, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: whether it's the, um, the woman at the well, or
Speaker 1: it's going up to the feast, that's just that divine
Speaker 1: timeline that he is so sensitive to. So I love that.
Speaker 1: And then
Speaker 1: Again, I think with Luke, you know, we're looking more
Speaker 1: at the discipleship, the disciple community and this idea of
Speaker 1: inviting Jesus along with us. I so I just think
Speaker 1: I'm always looking for those like underlying discipleship principles within
Speaker 1: the text and so I love that, you know, that.
Speaker 1: You know, we, we shouldn't be so, um, I think
Speaker 1: strict sometimes, like when we're reading the Gospels, we're like, oh,
Speaker 1: like the timeline is different than Matthew's timeline, or it's
Speaker 1: different than John, and, you know, and we think of
Speaker 1: them as chronological, always, uh, rather than actually these are
Speaker 1: stories that are all brought together so that we understand
Speaker 1: these biblical.
Speaker 1: principles of who God is and of what we are
Speaker 1: to be doing as disciples, you know, they're not exhaustive.
Speaker 1: They're not, uh, necessarily, you know, back to back in
Speaker 1: the stories in the way that they're told them. So, uh,
Speaker 1: I just love that you brought that out. So
Speaker 2: what
Speaker 1: do
Speaker 2: you think, um, like the mindset is when someone's approaching
Speaker 2: scripture and in this instance, John 7, what, how do
Speaker 2: you describe what's happening in the mindset that says, wait
Speaker 2: a minute, Jesus said no.
Speaker 2: To the invitation and going up to the festival, but
Speaker 2: then he goes up later and I see a problem
Speaker 2: with that. What do you think's happening there?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, I think the deeper question is, um,
Speaker 1: God's consistency, you know, is like God's faithfulness. Can I
Speaker 1: trust God if he's kind of playing fast and loose
Speaker 1: with people.
Speaker 1: So he's saying one thing, he's doing another, and I
Speaker 1: think behind that question, in my experience is a a
Speaker 1: question about, you know, suspicion about God. Can I trust God?
Speaker 1: Is God,
Speaker 2: uh, yes, yes and no, no,
Speaker 1: or is he playing with me? And I think actually
Speaker 1: most people out there actually have this view, um, that
Speaker 1: God has ulterior motives, God is withholding that he is
Speaker 1: playing with us. He's testing us, oh God, put this
Speaker 1: in my life to really, you know, know whether or
Speaker 1: not I'm really one of the good ones, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think when you look consistently throughout scripture, that
Speaker 1: is not how God works. He is faithful to do
Speaker 1: what he says, his his character is consistent and all
Speaker 1: that he does. And so I think, yeah, that's the
Speaker 1: question underneath those questions usually that's being asked there. Can
Speaker 1: I trust God? Is he trustworthy?
Speaker 2: And I think it's interesting cause like you're saying, like,
Speaker 2: there's the underlying point of the, you know, immutability of
Speaker 2: God or something like that, but then we still have
Speaker 2: to ask the question, is God free to act though?
Speaker 2: In a way, as long as it's consistent with his character,
Speaker 2: is he free to act differently? Because even not just
Speaker 2: with Jesus and I, I, I reference like Jesus humanity,
Speaker 2: but talk about God in the Old Testament, for example.
Speaker 2: There's times where he says he's gonna, he's gonna judge.
Speaker 2: He's gonna destroy and all this and that, but then
Speaker 2: the people repent and then says, and God relented, you know, and,
Speaker 2: and so, so once again, I think maybe what you're
Speaker 2: saying is.
Speaker 2: If people see a problem, I'm just like thankful he
Speaker 2: he relented, you know, but I guess some people are, well, no,
Speaker 2: you know, he should have gone through with it. But again,
Speaker 2: what we're seeing is not a change in character. It actually,
Speaker 2: it's a change in the people, it's a change in
Speaker 2: maybe their circumstances, but it's not God's character, and I
Speaker 2: think sometimes we almost, we want God to be a
Speaker 2: frozen go where immutability means frozenness. He he's not free
Speaker 2: to act.
Speaker 2: Differently, like even the way Jesus will heal, like we
Speaker 2: might prefer he has an exact method of how everyone's,
Speaker 2: but what do we see? We see like kind of
Speaker 2: the opposite. Like he's, he heals sometimes he touches somebody,
Speaker 2: sometimes he speaks a word, sometimes he spits on the ground,
Speaker 2: you know, and all that, and it's kind of like,
Speaker 2: wait a minute, I'm trying to, God, can you be?
Speaker 2: Can you be consistent so like we can bottle.
Speaker 2: That up and figure it out, but God, I think
Speaker 2: God is also free. You know, he's free to act
Speaker 2: as long as it's consistent with his character, which I
Speaker 2: think in scripture it always is, he is free to
Speaker 2: do things differently. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and one of those books that will really mess with
Speaker 1: that is the Book of Ruth because one commentator put it,
Speaker 1: you know, this, um,
Speaker 1: They called it when God breaks all the rules because,
Speaker 1: you know, even in the beginning of the story, we've
Speaker 1: just been told and, you know, the, the law how
Speaker 1: Moabites are forbidden.
Speaker 1: You know, they're the cursed people because of what they
Speaker 1: did to Israel. They're not gonna be, you know, in
Speaker 1: the assembly and be brought in, you know, to the
Speaker 1: 3rd and 4th generation. There's all these things in there.
Speaker 1: And yet Ruth becomes the great grandmother of King David,
Speaker 1: the one who, you know, makes preparations for the house
Speaker 1: of God, the one who is after God's heart, and
Speaker 1: she's brought in.
Speaker 1: You know, the lineage of Messiah, right? So it's one
Speaker 1: of these stories where God is actually breaking the rules
Speaker 1: that he laid down for Israel. Those don't apply to God, right?
Speaker 1: He can bring in whoever he wants. He can actually
Speaker 1: make clean who he has told Israel is actually unclean.
Speaker 1: We were actually just looking at this yesterday in Mark
Speaker 1: chapter 7. There's questions around eating, you know, without
Speaker 1: Washed hands, the ceremonial bath of the hands. And it's
Speaker 1: really interesting because it's actually the deeper question here is
Speaker 1: about who is pure before God. And the story is
Speaker 1: sandwiched between Jesus coming from the agora, the marketplace, and him.
Speaker 1: Granting the request of a Syro Phoenician Gentile woman. And
Speaker 1: so Mark intentionally sandwiches this question about purity with these
Speaker 1: two stories. Jesus is actually accepting receiving any who will
Speaker 1: come to him in sincerity and simple faith. Nothing disqualifies them.
Speaker 1: They can actually be touched and renewed, healed, given clean
Speaker 1: hearts by Jesus. And so that's just like this.
Speaker 1: Amazing thing that God, you know, and obviously we believe, uh,
Speaker 1: because we are, uh, you know, Jesus is Messiah people,
Speaker 1: gospel people, we believe that Ruth is a foreshadowing of
Speaker 1: what God would do in and through Christ, right?
Speaker 2: Can I push you a little bit on something, um,
Speaker 2: so you, you said God can break the rules. I just,
Speaker 2: I wonder.
Speaker 2: Would you want to stick with that phrase, or would
Speaker 2: you want to say
Speaker 1: God option B? Yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. I
Speaker 2: don't know. I mean, uh, would you, uh, would exceptions
Speaker 2: be better or even the rules rightly interpreted, for example,
Speaker 2: I think of David eating the show bread. There, there's
Speaker 2: a rule, but it's also like, or even rules on
Speaker 2: the Sabbath, and he's like, yeah, yeah, there's rules for
Speaker 2: the Sabbath, but look, you're, you're interpreting it wrong. No,
Speaker 2: God never intended for you not to help.
Speaker 2: You know, somebody was falling down into a ditch and
Speaker 2: broke their legs. Oh and Sabbath, I can't work so.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't, and, and of course the interpretation was Jesus
Speaker 2: is breaking the Sabbath. So, um, how, what do you
Speaker 2: think is like if somebody were to pick up on
Speaker 2: that and kind of run with it, what would you say?
Speaker 1: Well,
Speaker 1: Mike, the other title isn't as
Speaker 2: provocative for pointing that out.
Speaker 1: No, I, I, I think I like using provocative language
Speaker 1: because
Speaker 2: it's punchy, yeah,
Speaker 1: and people are like, hold on a second. And then
Speaker 1: like I used to do this all the time with
Speaker 1: our church up north they'd be like.
Speaker 1: When you, when you started, I was really scared and
Speaker 1: by the end I was really excited, you know, so
Speaker 1: it's like, uh oh yes, you know,
Speaker 2: as long as they stick with you, you're good and
Speaker 2: don't just quit and start blogging,
Speaker 1: yeah, yeah, I gotta go. um, but yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that that is definitely what's going on there. But I
Speaker 1: do think that they're like, is God kosher, you know, like,
Speaker 1: does God, uh, does God, you know, this and that,
Speaker 1: like Jesus's example, um, my father is working.
Speaker 1: And he never stops working, right? So there's this idea that,
Speaker 1: you know, among the rabbis, there was this idea with
Speaker 1: the tradition of the elders, that God himself keeps Sabbath,
Speaker 1: and must rest on the Sabbath. Like, it's part of like,
Speaker 1: almost like this uh this law that even God keeps Torah, right?
Speaker 1: And actually, no, God doesn't keep Torah.
Speaker 1: God is above Torah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I guess that's kind of what I
Speaker 1: mean with that, right? Like God actually can, but he's
Speaker 2: above it is what you're really saying. It's not because
Speaker 2: to break it, he'd have to be under it, but
Speaker 2: he's actually not under it. He is the one who
Speaker 2: is above it giving it. That's right.
Speaker 1: He is the source, the giver, and I love what
Speaker 1: you said, right? God, though he never compromises his own being,
Speaker 1: his own character, um.
Speaker 1: I think it's humans that, you know, we misapply and
Speaker 1: misunderstand these things. And of course, I mean, that's all
Speaker 1: that Jesus is doing. Do you not think that I
Speaker 1: came to destroy the law and the prophets? I do not.
Speaker 1: I came to fulfill them, right?
Speaker 2: It reminds me too cause like an old definition of miracles,
Speaker 2: so we, we use that term laws of nature.
Speaker 2: And miracles where I think they still are often referred
Speaker 2: to as violations of the laws of nature, um, but
Speaker 2: then I remember one theologian pointed out it's not a
Speaker 2: violation of the law, it's the super session of them, right?
Speaker 2: It's like, no, like God's not breaking a law of
Speaker 2: nature that he made, rather, he's superseding it. It's his prerogative.
Speaker 2: It's not uh a violation of it. So I think
Speaker 2: just even.
Speaker 2: Kind of that mind and like, and like you said
Speaker 2: to the point, I think it, it, it certainly preaches
Speaker 2: and it's punchy and sometimes I think we need that
Speaker 2: provocative word to stop us in our tracks and, and,
Speaker 2: and to rethink things because otherwise we bottle, we box
Speaker 2: everything up. Oh, I know everything and you know, something
Speaker 2: like that's like, oh, wait a minute. OK, hold on,
Speaker 2: what's he, what's he saying? And if I'm a, if
Speaker 2: I'm a wise gracious person, I continue to listen, but
Speaker 2: if not, then, uh, we've lost each other. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I love what you said as
Speaker 1: well. I've lost a few.
Speaker 2: There will be more, I assure you.
Speaker 1: Paul, thank you so much for sending in your question
Speaker 1: through Kwave.com. And now let's go to the phones. 888-564-6173
Speaker 1: is our number. And here in San Diego is Luz,
Speaker 1: who's listening to us online. Hi there, Liz. Welcome to
Speaker 1: Pastor's Perspective.
Speaker 1: Hi, thank you for taking my call. Yeah, how can
Speaker 1: we help you?
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I, um, I can have a question, so like,
Speaker 1: Um, I have been praying, um,
Speaker 2: for maybe to find a church that has more kids
Speaker 2: cause I have a young daughter, so I, I have
Speaker 2: been looking for something like that.
Speaker 2: And this past weekend, um, someone invited me to their church.
Speaker 2: And so I went and everyone was really friendly. Um,
Speaker 2: there was a bunch of kids, you know, like, um,
Speaker 2: my daughter's age. But um there's something that kind of
Speaker 2: left me like a little unsettled, where um they refer
Speaker 2: to God as, you know, there's God the Father, and
Speaker 2: there is God the mother because it, it goes based
Speaker 2: off his traits.
Speaker 2: Um, which I kind of understand, but then at the
Speaker 2: same time, like, like they referred to him more as
Speaker 2: God the mother when they were doing the sermon, and
Speaker 2: that kind of just left me like a little like weary.
Speaker 1: So I just wanted to see like what your thoughts
Speaker 1: were on that.
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, it's a great question.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, God is
Speaker 1: You know, not, God does not have a gender in
Speaker 1: the way, you know, or sex a gender in the
Speaker 1: way that we think of it. God is he's a
Speaker 1: spiritual being. And so what we do need to understand,
Speaker 1: you know, cause I think sometimes we go too far, right? We,
Speaker 1: some people would go so far to say that men
Speaker 1: alone truly represent God, uh, because God is Father and
Speaker 1: these things. And so, you know, in the beginning when
Speaker 1: God makes image bearers, he makes them male and female.
Speaker 1: So we do believe that
Speaker 1: You know, both the male sex and the female sex
Speaker 1: actually represent God. And actually, one without the other is
Speaker 1: not a full representation of who God is in His fullness.
Speaker 1: We need both. And so, that there are characteristics, traits
Speaker 1: of women, of mothers that actually represent God in his being,
Speaker 1: in his, in his loving, kind, gentle, compassionate.
Speaker 1: Character. So, that the Bible is very clear about that,
Speaker 1: and there's even language and it's debated, but, you know,
Speaker 1: that there is this term used for God, El Shaddai,
Speaker 1: and it refers to the breast. He is a nurturing
Speaker 1: God and I I think that's what you're referring to earlier.
Speaker 1: I think we go too far when we begin to
Speaker 1: refer to God as God our mother.
Speaker 1: And then, you know, way too far if we're saying
Speaker 1: that there is actually another, you know, deity, uh, or
Speaker 1: part of, I don't
Speaker 1: know, there would no unity trinity,
Speaker 1: right, yeah, um, God the mother, that is not something
Speaker 1: that we find in scripture at all. And I think,
Speaker 1: you know, going back to God's being.
Speaker 1: God is the source of all being. He does not
Speaker 1: need a mother to make life. And so, right, this
Speaker 1: is a a question or an issue of God's own self-sufficiency.
Speaker 1: He is the great I am. God does not create
Speaker 1: because of a lack of, you know, uh, purpose, or,
Speaker 1: you know, because he needs something out of creation, but
Speaker 1: he creates so that he might pour out his love.
Speaker 1: He is giving and um
Speaker 1: Forgiving, giving and self-giving, right? So this is God who is,
Speaker 1: he is in his being.
Speaker 1: And so, I think when when we get into, you know,
Speaker 1: the oh actually there's a God the God the mother,
Speaker 1: then God is dependent upon God the mother to create life,
Speaker 1: and we actually find the opposite within scripture. My,
Speaker 2: yeah, so I remember.
Speaker 2: Go ahead. Sorry. I remember reading something like that and
Speaker 2: it does touch on his um feminine traits, you know,
Speaker 2: as well as his masculine traits. So I understand like
Speaker 2: what they're trying to say, but then it's just didn't
Speaker 2: feel right. Yeah, I think part of the issue is.
Speaker 2: Why are you saying what you're saying? Where are you
Speaker 2: getting that from? Um, because I'm, I mean, I feel
Speaker 2: like I'm getting older when I tell stories that are
Speaker 2: like 13 years old and stuff, but I went to
Speaker 2: a mainline Protestant seminary 13 years ago, spent a semester there.
Speaker 2: And, uh, one of the first classes I took, they, uh,
Speaker 2: started using God the mother language. Not only that, they
Speaker 2: said they would penalize us academically if we did not
Speaker 2: use female pronouns for God in our writings. And I,
Speaker 2: and I was gonna lose my scholarship over this. So
Speaker 2: I had to make an appointment with the academic dean
Speaker 2: and explain, look, if you can show me anywhere in
Speaker 2: the Bible, like I'm a I'm like, I'm willing to
Speaker 2: be reformed by scripture. If I'm wrong, if I have
Speaker 2: overly patriarchal language, but by all means correct me.
Speaker 2: Um, but I said, but bottom line as a Christian,
Speaker 2: I'm bound to the word of God. Uh, scripture is
Speaker 2: normative for me, uh, for theological discourse, which means
Speaker 2: The Bible is revelation. It's not philosophy, it's revelation, which
Speaker 2: means it's God's own self-disclosure. Therefore, if I'm gonna talk
Speaker 2: about the mystery of God and the things of God,
Speaker 2: I've got to do it according to God's own word,
Speaker 2: God's own revelation, not me philosophizing about what I would
Speaker 2: like it to be, or I think it should be,
Speaker 2: or what's popular or any or anything else. And if
Speaker 2: you go to scripture, I think as Char was saying,
Speaker 2: while there, it is true that, I mean, number one,
Speaker 2: if this is a push back on
Speaker 2: Uh, certainly there's been patriarchy. Certainly there's been people, I
Speaker 2: think certainly more in the past, but, and probably still
Speaker 2: some today, though I, I think less, um, that have
Speaker 2: just overly pressed the masculine language like far beyond what
Speaker 2: the Bible warrants, and, and they actually make God a man,
Speaker 2: you know, God is a spirit, he doesn't have a body, right?
Speaker 2: I mean, Christ the son becomes incarnate, uh, as a man,
Speaker 2: but God is spirit, right? So,
Speaker 2: Um, and then God creates, uh, male and female in
Speaker 2: the beginning, and the two are human, right? Humanity. And
Speaker 2: so obviously if both male and female come from God
Speaker 2: and God's the one creating both of them, then obviously
Speaker 2: they reflect together characteristics of God. Um, therefore, I think
Speaker 2: that that validates femininity and and femaleness and all of that.
Speaker 2: However, when we're speaking about God, particularly about the, the
Speaker 2: inner nature or inner life of God, as I, I
Speaker 2: like to refer to it, the pattern is always God
Speaker 2: the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. They're never, never, never, never, ever,
Speaker 2: not even one time is there God the mother doesn't exist. So,
Speaker 2: so even if, for example, and else should I, I
Speaker 2: heard that, uh, too, and it is possible, though it's
Speaker 2: very highly debated. It, it could be that is possible.
Speaker 2: It could mean the breast or something, the, the nourishing one,
Speaker 2: which would be a.
Speaker 2: The feminine trait, um, it may not be either way
Speaker 2: what you still don't have is God the mother language,
Speaker 2: and I think as Christians we are bound to the Bible,
Speaker 2: to the word of God, and to the pattern of
Speaker 2: speaking about the, the mystery of God. I mean, the
Speaker 2: Trinity is a mystery, and I'm not authorized to go
Speaker 2: in there and start adding and taking out things that I,
Speaker 2: I think ought to be there because maybe somebody will
Speaker 2: misuse it. I think we can do what Char did.
Speaker 2: Which is caution against misusing it, but we must protect
Speaker 2: the revealed mystery of the nature of God in scripture.
Speaker 2: Does this help you lose? OK. Um, yeah, so, um,
Speaker 2: it does, um, like, and when I went to the
Speaker 2: Bible study.
Speaker 2: Uh, we did like a little Bible study before the
Speaker 2: sermon and like some of the stuff that they were
Speaker 2: saying kind of makes sense, cause I, I haven't read
Speaker 2: the whole Bible, but I've, I'm, I'm like almost halfway done. Um,
Speaker 2: and then one of the things that they touched on was, um,
Speaker 2: you know, when, when God says
Speaker 2: Um, or like when Jesus says, um, like, depart from me,
Speaker 2: I never knew you, like, only those who do the
Speaker 2: Father's will are allowed to enter in heaven, and, um.
Speaker 2: And so they were like saying only those who do,
Speaker 2: so it's not just believing in Jesus, it's um doing
Speaker 2: the will of God, so like celebrating the Passover. So that's,
Speaker 2: that kind of left me like a little because
Speaker 2: I know it's not by work, you know, that we
Speaker 2: get into heaven,
Speaker 1: but also like I feel like it's not just saying
Speaker 1: I believe in him. Like there has to be some
Speaker 1: action to our.
Speaker 1: To what we say.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's a great question. Yeah, you know, there's
Speaker 1: actually been a lot of uh that's recently been written
Speaker 1: on this, and of course, this has been debated hotly, um,
Speaker 1: almost from the beginning of Christianity, right? Um, James, um,
Speaker 1: the author of the epistle, right? He writes about this,
Speaker 1: that we must have faith that works, and Paul the Apostle,
Speaker 1: he talks about
Speaker 1: You know, that there's a life of the spirit that
Speaker 1: works out of us, God's works, right? So we, we,
Speaker 1: we need, like, both have to happen. And so there's been,
Speaker 1: I was saying recently, a lot written on, you know,
Speaker 1: that
Speaker 1: The word faith probably, you know, it doesn't really translate,
Speaker 1: you know, to our uh current culture, you know, I
Speaker 1: think about like, you know, people use faith even in
Speaker 1: the church like George Michael, you know, just got to
Speaker 1: have faith, faith, faith, you know, like, well, what is that?
Speaker 1: I just believe that I believe, you know, I hope
Speaker 1: against hope and that's the way that we can.
Speaker 1: We can almost use faith as positive thinking
Speaker 2: intellectual
Speaker 1: assent. Yeah, oh, I believe that that's true. Like I believe, yeah, that,
Speaker 1: you know, miracles can happen, right? But what the Bible
Speaker 1: is actually calling for in faith is actually giving our
Speaker 1: full allegiance to Jesus Christ. It's going all in and
Speaker 1: and the word faith is actually more like the word trust.
Speaker 1: Like I give God, I'm
Speaker 1: I trust you. I believe that you're trustworthy, and so
Speaker 1: I obey you. I, I do what you say in
Speaker 1: your word, because I believe um that you, you know,
Speaker 1: like Peter said, you have the words of eternal life,
Speaker 1: that actually, if I obey your teachings, they will produce
Speaker 1: a kind of fullness and flourishing.
Speaker 1: Of life for me. Now, I, I think what we
Speaker 1: need to think about is not just what, you know,
Speaker 1: the Jews and ancient Israel, according to the law of Moses,
Speaker 1: were taught to obey and believe, but specifically, we are
Speaker 1: Christians and part of the new covenant. And so, according
Speaker 1: to Jesus and according to the authors of the New Testament,
Speaker 1: what are we being told to obey, you know, and specifically,
Speaker 1: you know, if we could narrow it down just to
Speaker 1: these two commands that Jesus gives, we are commanded to
Speaker 1: love God.
Speaker 1: And we are commanded to love our neighbor as ourself.
Speaker 1: And basically, Paul and other writers tell us that all
Speaker 1: that God requires is actually wrapped up in those two commands,
Speaker 1: that that's the obedience that God is looking for. That's
Speaker 1: what a life of faith actually.
Speaker 1: Produces and looks like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean you as Char said, and you're
Speaker 2: touching on a centuries old, and, and it's not gonna
Speaker 2: go away, you know, I mean, I think maybe we
Speaker 2: can grow in in our understanding and reconciling, but certainly
Speaker 2: scripture presents those two things and there seems to be
Speaker 2: a tension, which is very clearly, uh, we're taught that
Speaker 2: we're saved by grace through faith, not of works lest
Speaker 2: anyone should boast. Uh, Abraham was justified when he believed. That's,
Speaker 2: this is Old Testament, that's not even.
Speaker 2: New Testament that and Abraham believed God and God reckoned it,
Speaker 2: accounted it to him as righteousness. And what's interesting if
Speaker 2: you go to James and it says, wasn't Abraham justified
Speaker 2: um when he offered up? Well, that was actually years later.
Speaker 2: So actually what's funny is you kind of go, wait
Speaker 2: a minute, James, no, Abraham was actually justified when he believed,
Speaker 2: that's it. That's all it says. He just trusted God
Speaker 2: and believed him.
Speaker 2: But I think James's whole point, and I, I, I
Speaker 2: honestly think people miss this, um, I think James is
Speaker 2: dealing with a little bit of a different issue, like
Speaker 2: Paul's giving us theology, what makes a person right before God.
Speaker 2: James is a wisdom book. We acknowledge James is actually
Speaker 2: a New Testament version of the Old Testament genre of wisdom.
Speaker 2: James is not dealing with high theology per se, but
Speaker 2: he's dealing with like pastoral ministry. Like how do we,
Speaker 2: what do we.
Speaker 2: Do. And right before he talks about, you know, faith
Speaker 2: without works is dead and all that, he says, if
Speaker 2: someone says they have faith, but don't, what so what
Speaker 2: he's doing is he's saying, here is a wise tool
Speaker 2: on how to evaluate faith claims. And as human beings
Speaker 2: who are not God, I don't know whether somebody truly
Speaker 2: believes or not. And even if you say works, well,
Speaker 2: you're gonna have some sins too.
Speaker 2: So by human standards, I'm still never fully gonna tell
Speaker 2: if works you're gonna save you. Well, you got bad
Speaker 2: ones too. You can have bad days. I've seen Christians
Speaker 2: have bad seasons like years where they're in a ditch
Speaker 2: and good grief, if they die then, now we're all like, well,
Speaker 2: if it's works, they're in hell, you know, even though
Speaker 2: they believed and did good stuff earlier. So I think
Speaker 2: it's important to say that what makes a person right
Speaker 2: before God very clearly is what the Protestant reformers did.
Speaker 2: In the 6th century, which is emphasized, we are saved
Speaker 2: by grace through faith, justified by Christ and His finished
Speaker 2: work on the cross and that alone. However, that kind
Speaker 2: of faith is dynamic. It's powerful. It converts the person.
Speaker 2: You're born again, you're empowered by the spirit. You're adopted
Speaker 2: into the, into the church into the family and house
Speaker 2: of of God. You've been predestined for what? For good works,
Speaker 2: not by them, but for them. So I think works
Speaker 2: are important, they're vital, but.
Speaker 2: It's sort of what we look at as evidence both
Speaker 2: for ourselves and others that are are quote faith or
Speaker 2: believing loyalty or whatever we wanna or trust in God
Speaker 2: is actually real, that it's more than just a verbal claim.
Speaker 2: But when it comes down to it, when somebody stands
Speaker 2: before God, God's not like, all right, well how good
Speaker 2: were you or whatever. That's, that's just religion, that's false
Speaker 2: religion really. What it comes down to is, what have
Speaker 2: you done with my son? Are you in my son
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ? That's ultimately what justifies a person before God.
Speaker 1: Luz, thank you for your phone call today on Pastor's perspective,
Speaker 1: and I'm glad you got that check in your spirit,
Speaker 1: and you decided to call us because Luz was praying. Lord,
Speaker 1: I want a church with friendly people and a church
Speaker 1: that's got lots of kids so that my daughter can
Speaker 1: have friends, and she found a church with friendly people
Speaker 1: and with lots of kids. But then there was this
Speaker 1: other thing that just felt a little bit off, and
Speaker 1: we're so glad that you called in.
Speaker 1: And didn't wind up visiting anymore. Thanks for calling us today.
Speaker 1: We're gonna take a break now and we'll be back
Speaker 1: with more of your questions. Char Broderson and Mike Chaddick
Speaker 1: are here for another 30 minutes. 888-564-6173 is the number
Speaker 1: to call, and we would love to hear from you
Speaker 1: at 888-564-6173.
Speaker 1: We're back on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number to call.
Speaker 1: I'm Brian Perez here with Char Broderson and Mike Chaddick
Speaker 1: for the next 25 minutes. Give us a call at 888-564-6173. Loz,
Speaker 1: if you're still listening there in San Diego, duh, I forgot.
Speaker 1: Phil Metzger's Church, Calvary, San Diego. That's where you should go.
Speaker 1: You can find out more at CalvarySD.com, unless, of course,
Speaker 1: that's the church that's teaching about God the Mother. I'm
Speaker 1: sure it's not. Phil Metzger would not do that. We can,
Speaker 1: we can trust Phil. He, he's on our program quite often.
Speaker 1: So check that out. Los CalvarySD.com. Here's another question that
Speaker 1: was sent in online. This is from Maria.
Speaker 1: And she writes, How do I respectfully stop talking to
Speaker 1: someone who does not have Christian values? I have stopped
Speaker 1: talking to some people because I don't feel comfortable around
Speaker 1: the type of behaviors they indulge in. But sometimes I
Speaker 1: feel like when I see them in the store, they
Speaker 1: may try to be nice, but then if I'm friendly
Speaker 1: and return the gesture and say hello, they proceed with
Speaker 1: trying to be friends again. Can I just ignore them
Speaker 1: and keep walking? Because in my heart I have no
Speaker 1: hate towards them.
Speaker 1: But I just want to maintain my body and soul
Speaker 1: around either kind individuals with good morals or Christian-like individuals. Char,
Speaker 1: what do you say to Maria?
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I, I think for this, I think maybe
Speaker 1: this is a a fundamental misunderstanding of the good news
Speaker 1: concerning Jesus Christ. So,
Speaker 1: Right? The, the gospel, the good news concerning Jesus Christ
Speaker 1: is all about how God has come.
Speaker 1: In the person of Jesus, and he has actually welcomed
Speaker 1: the most unlikely of people. I will say people without
Speaker 1: Christian values, right? That Jesus actually spent time with these people,
Speaker 1: and he was glad to spend time with them. He
Speaker 1: befriended them and he welcomed them to be his friends,
Speaker 1: and he showed them what God is really like, that
Speaker 1: God loves them, that God cares for them, that God
Speaker 1: Actually doesn't see them as, you know, um, those to
Speaker 1: be ignored and cast off and worthless and just wicked sinners,
Speaker 1: but he sees them as his creation that is lost,
Speaker 1: that he dearly loves and wants to forgive and make
Speaker 1: whole and make clean by his saving power. So I
Speaker 1: think when we really look at the gospel about Jesus, it's,
Speaker 1: you know, our life should not be about just keeping
Speaker 1: ourselves clean from
Speaker 1: You know, those people out there that don't have Christian values.
Speaker 1: We were actually talking about this yesterday in our teaching.
Speaker 1: You know, there's this kind of historical thing with, you know,
Speaker 1: I guess all religions, but also in Christianity where we
Speaker 1: tend to think that evil is out there.
Speaker 1: And it's not an issue within my own life. And
Speaker 1: so we fortify and protect ourselves and remove, you know, this,
Speaker 1: these kind of people from our social groups so that
Speaker 1: we think we'll be safe from influence and evil. But
Speaker 1: Jesus actually says in Mark 7 that actually evil is
Speaker 1: within every human heart and actually God has come in
Speaker 1: the person of Jesus to deal with that evil, to
Speaker 1: cleanse us and us, but I guess I would ask
Speaker 1: this question, Maria, how do you think people are gonna
Speaker 1: come to know Jesus?
Speaker 1: If a human being doesn't reveal him, you know, just
Speaker 1: through kindness, through love, through friendship, because this is what
Speaker 1: Jesus is doing all throughout the gospels, and he is
Speaker 1: our example. We follow him. He is the way, he
Speaker 1: is the truth, He is the life. And so I
Speaker 1: think that maybe you need to begin to rethink what
Speaker 1: it actually means to be a follower of Jesus.
Speaker 1: And to actually befriend these people, not in order to
Speaker 1: be like them and take on their, you know, non-Christian values,
Speaker 1: as you say, but that they would actually see the
Speaker 1: value of Christian values lived out in your life, that
Speaker 1: they could see how kind and beautiful and gracious, and
Speaker 1: welcoming and forgiving God really is through your life. Mike,
Speaker 1: any thoughts?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think in general, you know,
Speaker 2: to the question, how do I respectfully stop talking to
Speaker 2: someone who doesn't have Christian values? Well, I would think
Speaker 2: normally you don't stop talking to them. I normally, you know,
Speaker 2: the only, you know, are there exceptions, I guess is
Speaker 2: the question. And I think obviously if it's someone who's
Speaker 2: like pulls you into sin and, and I can imagine
Speaker 2: maybe various scenarios where that could be romantic relationship exactly
Speaker 2: like you, you think about, you know, um.
Speaker 2: People that were dating someone, they were in, you know,
Speaker 2: a relationship that was not God honoring and all of that,
Speaker 2: but it, it just had a pull on them and
Speaker 2: they had a very hard time getting out of it
Speaker 2: and they did. And then they see this person and
Speaker 2: they're like, oh my gosh, like I have next to
Speaker 2: zero self-control, you know, and if I talk to them,
Speaker 2: it's all gonna go downhill. OK, I, that would be
Speaker 2: an extreme case, I would think an exception. And if
Speaker 2: you need to do that for the sake of your
Speaker 2: own walk with God, because you are going to go
Speaker 2: directly into some kind of sin, yes, I would agree.
Speaker 2: You know, just don't talk to them if you saw
Speaker 2: them in the store. If, I mean, again, to me,
Speaker 2: I feel like hopefully you can say hi in the
Speaker 2: store and not get into sin in aisle 9 or whatever,
Speaker 2: but you know, if you can't, then, then I understand.
Speaker 2: I'd say yes, just it's better to deal radically.
Speaker 2: You know, but again, that's not in a sense, as
Speaker 2: you said, Char, it's not actually not even fully a
Speaker 2: judgment on that person. It's actually recognizing the own sin
Speaker 2: and evil and wickedness in myself. Like I know me
Speaker 2: well enough to know I shouldn't go there or I
Speaker 2: shouldn't be around that person. And, and I think it's
Speaker 2: actually important that if you do that, you understand that's
Speaker 2: actually what's happening. Otherwise we can get that pharisaical judgmental,
Speaker 2: you know, us versus them. Well, I'm a good person,
Speaker 2: you're a bad filthy.
Speaker 2: I don't want the hem of my garment touching you
Speaker 2: because I'll get dirty and that kind of thing. No,
Speaker 2: actually it's my fault, you know, and, and by the way,
Speaker 2: I kind of did this when I first became a believer.
Speaker 2: I had to kind of cut off my friend circle, um,
Speaker 2: because they were engaged in behavior I was engaged in
Speaker 2: and I couldn't, and as a follower of Jesus, I
Speaker 2: could no longer do it and I didn't trust myself
Speaker 2: and I actually felt bad that I knew it could
Speaker 2: come off like a judgment.
Speaker 2: On them, like, oh, I think I'm so, and, and
Speaker 2: some of them I think expressed that is how they,
Speaker 2: they took it that oh you're, you're too good for
Speaker 2: us now, Christian boy or whatever, um, but I tried
Speaker 2: to communicate as much as possible, to be perfectly honest
Speaker 2: with you.
Speaker 2: Um, I encounter Jesus. I'm following him and to be honest,
Speaker 2: I'm just not very good at it yet, you know,
Speaker 2: and so I just, I gotta do what I gotta do,
Speaker 2: but honestly, I love you guys. I, I still think
Speaker 2: the world of you, you know, there's, I see the
Speaker 2: good qualities despite the sins. I see the good qualities and.
Speaker 2: And honestly, it's like an unfortunate circumstance due to in
Speaker 2: a sense to my own weakness. Like if I were stronger,
Speaker 2: like right now with those, I'd be totally fine. I
Speaker 2: would actually love to meet up with them and see
Speaker 2: how they're doing, have coffee with them, and if they
Speaker 2: want to start getting drunk at lunch, I don't, I mean,
Speaker 2: knock yourself up, just please don't drive, you know, um,
Speaker 2: but I'm, I'm good, but you know, back then I
Speaker 2: couldn't do it. So I think if that's the extreme
Speaker 2: circumstance you're in, you literally absolutely have to avoid them
Speaker 2: in order.
Speaker 2: To follow Jesus due to your own weakness or sinfulness,
Speaker 2: then OK, but as Char said, in general, I would
Speaker 2: hope that's not the case. I would hope that we
Speaker 2: can be around people who don't have Christian values. I
Speaker 2: hope that we, our faith is strong enough that we
Speaker 2: can live it out and see this as an opportunity,
Speaker 2: you know, uh, rather than than a problem. It's actually
Speaker 2: a golden opportunity for someone, uh, to come to Christ
Speaker 2: and you know, I, I think.
Speaker 2: The reality is you can't escape the world as much
Speaker 2: as you try. I mean, the whole monastic movement, though
Speaker 2: I think providentially there there was definitely good things about it,
Speaker 2: but it's kind of that idea like, hey, well, we
Speaker 2: can get away from the world, and then I remember
Speaker 2: Saint Anthony even said ironically,
Speaker 2: Uh, he had a problem with lust and so he figures, hey,
Speaker 2: I'll go to a cave and I want lust. He's like,
Speaker 2: I lusted more in the cave than I did when
Speaker 2: I was seeing women and it's like, you know, if
Speaker 2: you're trying to run away from, from all sin and temptation,
Speaker 2: the truth is you never will because it's in you. You,
Speaker 2: you have that. So, um, be wise, particularly in extreme circumstances,
Speaker 2: but as much as possible by the grace of God
Speaker 2: and the power of the Holy Spirit, we need to
Speaker 2: go out into the world and not be of it
Speaker 2: at the same time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me just share too, just a a couple
Speaker 1: of passages of scripture. Jesus calls the community of disciples.
Speaker 1: He says, you people are the light of the world.
Speaker 1: A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Speaker 1: And then he talks about glorifying God with your good work,
Speaker 1: so they may they see them, and they they recognize
Speaker 1: that God has done these things. Paul talks to the
Speaker 1: church about being the fragrance of Jesus in the world.
Speaker 1: And for some that is attractive, it draws them in,
Speaker 1: for others it convicts them, and it, it, Paul says
Speaker 1: it's like this aroma of death. It's uh a judgment
Speaker 1: on them, but there is the idea in both of these,
Speaker 1: both with the light and the sight, and the smells, um.
Speaker 1: Ideas of presence, of being present in the world. And so,
Speaker 1: you know, how are people again, gonna meet Jesus and
Speaker 1: know him if we don't talk to those people that
Speaker 1: don't have Christian values, I would actually argue that this
Speaker 1: is the whole reason why the church is still in
Speaker 1: the world, is to bear witness to God's salvation and
Speaker 1: to God's kingdom.
Speaker 1: Maria, thank you for sending in your question through Kwave.com.
Speaker 1: And here's another one that we have. Was the curtain
Speaker 1: replaced that was torn top to bottom when Jesus died?
Speaker 1: Is there any history on that? What happened after? Did
Speaker 1: they just go on like they did before? Is there
Speaker 1: anything in history or about the earthquake that happened at
Speaker 1: that time? Great question. Yeah, I, I don't, I feel
Speaker 1: like I have read somewhere something.
Speaker 1: Whether Josephus or something like that, that there is a
Speaker 1: recording of something like that, but I mean, yeah, I,
Speaker 1: I don't really know. The Bible doesn't record it. It also,
Speaker 1: and you know, anything else would be extra biblical, you know,
Speaker 1: some other historical document, um, but yeah, we don't, we
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have those records on hand, so, um.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, the pastor's perspective is, is failing a little bit
Speaker 1: on this one.
Speaker 2: Yes, and I, and I'm not gonna come in and
Speaker 2: one up char on this one, you know, as much
Speaker 2: as I, oh, well, char actually, um, yeah, to my knowledge,
Speaker 2: I'm not, and not to say it's not out there somewhere.
Speaker 2: I've never heard about that. I could guess that they did.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't imagine they'd leave it ruined, however, I can
Speaker 2: say in 70 AD it was completely destroyed and
Speaker 2: Uh, obviously, so that's, uh, a moot point, uh, after
Speaker 2: 70 AD. But yeah, interesting question. I mean, I mean, either, yeah,
Speaker 2: they looked at this saying, hey, there was an earthquake,
Speaker 2: this tour, uh, do we fix it or do we
Speaker 2: leave it? I would assume, uh, there was damage from
Speaker 2: an earthquake. They would probably repair it. It's a holy place,
Speaker 2: but again, that's just my assumption, not based on any
Speaker 2: evidence that I have.
Speaker 1: And the US Geological Survey was not around yet, so
Speaker 1: they
Speaker 2: didn't
Speaker 1: document that earthquake. I don't know if anybody else did, but.
Speaker 1: Thank you for, uh, Rudy, that question. And now here
Speaker 1: is Gustavo in Lake Forest, who's listening on the Kwave app.
Speaker 1: Thank you for calling in today, Gustavo.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you, thank you guys for having me. My pleasure.
Speaker 1: So my question was about Genesis 3:15, where um it's
Speaker 1: talking about the woman, right? Um, and I will put
Speaker 1: enmity between you and the woman and between your seed
Speaker 1: and her seed.
Speaker 1: Um, so,
Speaker 1: That part where it says the woman, is it referring
Speaker 1: to Eve, or is it referring to Mary, the mother
Speaker 1: of Jesus, or is it referring to
Speaker 1: Like humanity as a whole, because I was looking this
Speaker 1: up and it was talking about uh prodol and Joli
Speaker 1: or something like that and like the first mention of
Speaker 1: the gospel of salvation and stuff. So I have a
Speaker 1: buddy of mine that we're kind of like going back
Speaker 1: and forth on this. So I, I kind of wanted
Speaker 1: to see you guys' perspective on this. So what does
Speaker 1: your buddy think it is?
Speaker 1: Well, my, well, my, my friend thinks that he, it,
Speaker 1: it is, uh, talking about Mary, um, and, um.
Speaker 1: And obviously Jesus being deceived, etc. etc. and I was
Speaker 1: looking at some commentary and stuff and uh it didn't
Speaker 1: really say Mary, it was, it was talking more as
Speaker 1: a humanity as a whole, right? It's in nature. All right, char, etc. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's the answer would be yes, yes, and yes.
Speaker 1: I think there's a way in which we read this
Speaker 1: that it is all three. So of course directly it
Speaker 1: is Mary.
Speaker 1: And I think what God is saying there is, there
Speaker 1: is an unholy alliance where Satan has co-opted the woman
Speaker 1: and trying to use her for his means, and God says,
Speaker 1: absolutely not. This is my image bearer. I'm breaking up
Speaker 1: the unholy alliance. And so there's enmity between the seed
Speaker 1: of the woman, the seed of the serpent.
Speaker 1: I think eventually, yes, this is fulfilled in and through Mary,
Speaker 1: and I think also that this is what Paul is
Speaker 1: referring to way later in Timothy, when he talks about
Speaker 1: that this is the redemption story of women, which is
Speaker 1: just so cool to think about, right?
Speaker 1: Man, that like God actually gives, um, you know, our
Speaker 1: female counterparts this amazing role that they get to play
Speaker 1: in the story of redemption, you know, and of course
Speaker 1: Mary is, you know, um.
Speaker 1: You know, unjustly, unfortunately, you know, overly emphasized by our
Speaker 1: Catholic brothers and sisters, uh, in a way that deifies her.
Speaker 1: And to me it's, it's a heartbreaking thing because I think, man,
Speaker 1: she is like
Speaker 1: Scripture says, honored among women and should be, we should
Speaker 1: see in her man, what a hero of the faith,
Speaker 1: what a, what an example of faithfulness, uh, what a
Speaker 1: beautiful example of how God includes humans in the story
Speaker 1: of redemption, right? It's, uh, you know, God allows us
Speaker 1: to play a part, not that Mary is a co-redeemer,
Speaker 1: but her faithfulness plays a part in the work that
Speaker 1: God does. God is looking for human partnership.
Speaker 1: And so I just, I just love that. So, you know,
Speaker 1: I guess for me, I would say yes, yes, and yes,
Speaker 1: but I think strictly speaking, even and Mary, for sure,
Speaker 1: in this text. Mike. OK.
Speaker 2: Yeah, um, I don't disagree with Char. I think sort
Speaker 2: of like the systematic theology answer, like if we go
Speaker 2: to the back of the book to answer the question, um,
Speaker 2: the woman is Mary, the seed is Christ, and, and
Speaker 2: I think that's pretty clear and obvious because
Speaker 2: The word is era, the seed, and Greek, it's spermatos,
Speaker 2: and women don't have seed or sperm. So if you
Speaker 2: think about it from sort of a biblical theology standpoint,
Speaker 2: when that revelation was first given to the Israelites, you know,
Speaker 2: at the time of Moses, um, and there's no explanation, right?
Speaker 2: You don't have the rest of the Bible at that point.
Speaker 2: You don't certainly don't have the New Testament.
Speaker 2: It's uh what what Christians have called the proto yangalleon.
Speaker 2: The first hint of the gospel is presented there, and,
Speaker 2: and what it is is the gospel, it's not explained. um,
Speaker 2: it's rather mysterious, however, there's something there where, wait a minute,
Speaker 2: these two things don't seem to match. You have a
Speaker 2: woman who does not have Zara or spermatos, and yet
Speaker 2: this woman.
Speaker 2: Whom God is referring to, who's not simply gonna do
Speaker 2: great things or be a mighty man, it's gonna crush
Speaker 2: the head of the serpent. Wow, what is it? So
Speaker 2: there's a tension already in the very beginning of the
Speaker 2: biblical revelation of this mystery that is later revealed, but
Speaker 2: I think, uh, which is sort of popular to do
Speaker 2: an interpretation, and I, I don't think it's wrong just
Speaker 2: as long as you.
Speaker 2: Get around to the systematic theology answer if you, if
Speaker 2: you kind of go back to the beginning and say
Speaker 2: how would have Israelites at the time understood this, and
Speaker 2: I think that's what Shar was saying yes to. And
Speaker 2: the other questions if they didn't have all this other stuff,
Speaker 2: they would say even even humanity like even even through
Speaker 2: falling humanity.
Speaker 2: God is going to somehow destroy Satan. And so you
Speaker 2: have those two kind of truths there, but of course
Speaker 2: the ultimate truth, the ultimate revelation and fulfillment of all
Speaker 2: of it is, is Christ.
Speaker 1: Yeah. There's actually this really awesome, um, painting. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what it's what time it's from. I
Speaker 1: want to say it's from like the medieval period.
Speaker 1: You've probably seen it, Mike, but, um, it's a picture
Speaker 1: of Mary and Eve standing together and Eve is touching
Speaker 1: the stomach of pregnant Mary and Mary has a serpent
Speaker 1: crushed underneath her foot and it's just one of those
Speaker 1: ones where you're
Speaker 1: like
Speaker 2: blown
Speaker 1: wow, it's just so powerful to think like, wow, Lord, yeah,
Speaker 1: there it is, it is. We just pulled it up
Speaker 1: on the interwebs.
Speaker 1: Mary consoles Eve.
Speaker 1: Or maybe it's not from the medieval period, Our Lady
Speaker 1: of Mississippi.
Speaker 2: Our Lady of Mississippi.
Speaker 2: No, I feel like that is a I I actually
Speaker 2: saw it not that long ago. Where did it?
Speaker 2: Oh, we're all, we're in anyway, sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah, well,
Speaker 2: we're we're gonna get to the
Speaker 1: bottom
Speaker 2: of this though. When, what is the dating on that?
Speaker 2: We're gonna find
Speaker 2: out.
Speaker 1: Very nice. All right, Gustavo, thank you for calling us
Speaker 1: today here on Pastor's Perspective. And now here's Anthony and Brea.
Speaker 1: What is your question for Char Broderson and Mike Chattick today, Anthony?
Speaker 1: Hello, uh, can you guys hear me OK? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: can hear you.
Speaker 1: OK, great. um, so my question is about like, uh,
Speaker 1: just going when we go to church and we're hearing
Speaker 1: a message being taught, um, in my church, they do
Speaker 1: a lot of topical teaching, um, and a majority of
Speaker 1: it is, is really just a 100% scripture based.
Speaker 1: But, uh, at times, some of the points are based
Speaker 1: on the pastor's experience and not really found in scripture,
Speaker 1: not that they're trying to intentionally mislead us or it's
Speaker 1: anything like that, but, uh, especially when it pertains to
Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit moving within a
Speaker 1: person's life. Um, and I just wanted to know, uh, get, uh,
Speaker 1: a perspective from these gentlemen.
Speaker 1: Um, of how I'm, I guess how much.
Speaker 1: Uh, emphasis I, I should put on that and application
Speaker 1: to my life and, um, I guess believing how truthful
Speaker 1: it is, or I don't know, I'm just, I don't
Speaker 1: know if that sounds right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, you know, that's a great differentiation that
Speaker 1: you made there, right? So there's the biblical teaching, and
Speaker 1: then we would say there are personal examples, right, from
Speaker 1: the pastor's lives of how this has worked out in
Speaker 1: their own life.
Speaker 1: And so we wouldn't, you know, as, you know, good
Speaker 1: Bible students, we wouldn't say, oh, the example in this
Speaker 1: person's life is what I should expect the spirit to
Speaker 1: do that in my life, he is saying, this is
Speaker 1: how the Holy Spirit has done this work in my life.
Speaker 1: This is what it's looked like for me, and I
Speaker 1: actually really appreciate that because that's actually what we're told
Speaker 1: the spirit will do.
Speaker 1: The spirit will make Jesus real to each of us,
Speaker 1: and it will make the new life in Christ uh
Speaker 1: clear to us, but it's very individualized in the sense
Speaker 1: of like, it's my life, it's my relationships, it's my
Speaker 1: quandaries that I'm gonna have to deal with. But scripture
Speaker 1: will lay out for us, this is what the spirit
Speaker 1: will look like in the sense of what it will produce, love.
Speaker 1: You know, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self control.
Speaker 1: Paul is constantly talking about these things, right? The spirit
Speaker 1: will produce love, love for God, the spirit will produce
Speaker 1: love for neighbor, the spirit will produce
Speaker 1: Service, self-sacrifice like Jesus, right? So, how that happens in
Speaker 1: my life, I have a wife and 3 children, I'm
Speaker 1: a pastor of a local church. It's probably gonna look
Speaker 1: a lot different than your life, Anthony, but it's the
Speaker 1: same spirit that is working, and I think personalizing the
Speaker 1: life of Jesus to each of our lives, if that
Speaker 1: makes sense.
Speaker 1: What do you think, Mike?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I, I have this sort of, uh, metaphor, and it's,
Speaker 2: it's of a closed hand and an opened hand. The
Speaker 2: closed hand is on scripture. I know this is the
Speaker 2: word of God. Now I think God, now there are
Speaker 2: Christians who believe, no, that God doesn't like the Holy
Speaker 2: Spirit can't speak to you, can't say charred, don't, don't
Speaker 2: make that decision that's very specific to you and Calvary
Speaker 2: or this and that and the other.
Speaker 2: Um, I, I'm not of that persuasion. I do believe
Speaker 2: the Holy Spirit can guide individuals, give us leading, give
Speaker 2: us guidance and specific things, but I also know, um,
Speaker 2: the group that thinks the Holy Spirit never does that.
Speaker 2: They have a point or a concern, which is that
Speaker 2: people give equal or greater weight to what they perceive
Speaker 2: these private revelations to be.
Speaker 2: And where they'll actually go, well, the Holy Spirit gave
Speaker 2: me a dream and that's gonna trump what scripture says
Speaker 2: or whatever. And so to me, I have a closed
Speaker 2: hand around the Bible. If it says that, I believe
Speaker 2: that with all my heart. I don't wake up in
Speaker 2: one morning and say, is this the word of God?
Speaker 2: I know it is, it's the Bible. Um, in the
Speaker 2: other hand, that's, that's an open end. I'm open for
Speaker 2: the idea that God can speak to me. Now you,
Speaker 2: you ask specifically through the pastor, but this applies just
Speaker 2: to you personally, like if, if you, I talked to
Speaker 2: a person after church yesterday.
Speaker 2: And they were emphatic. God told me to do or
Speaker 2: not do this thing, and that thing was not in
Speaker 2: the Bible at all. It wasn't against the Bible, it
Speaker 2: just wasn't in it. The person could not point anywhere
Speaker 2: in the Bible, nor even a principle in the Bible
Speaker 2: that would support what they're saying. It wasn't outright wrong,
Speaker 2: but it was an outright right.
Speaker 2: But they were so emphatic about this and then I'm
Speaker 2: gonna stand I'm like, and I said, just, just be careful.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it's not God, but I do know
Speaker 2: that sometime when it's not the Bible, we can be wrong.
Speaker 2: That is possible. That's possible for a pastor to make
Speaker 2: a mistake in an example, an illustration, and even an application.
Speaker 2: Um, and apart from the pastor, just in on our,
Speaker 2: our own life experience, we can make mistakes, and I,
Speaker 2: I don't want to get freaked out and say, well,
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna listen to the Holy Spirit anymore or
Speaker 2: listen to a pastor anymore and all that, you know,
Speaker 2: but at the same time, I think again, the, the
Speaker 2: closed hand is on the word of God. I mean
Speaker 2: compare everything to the word of God and as long
Speaker 2: as it's not against that, I have an open hand
Speaker 2: with it. I'll pray over it, I'll take that to otherwise.
Speaker 2: Uh, Christians and follow up on that, etc. So I
Speaker 2: just think, um, I give a different weight to it, right?
Speaker 2: You know, um, so I give the highest authority to
Speaker 2: Sola Scriptua, um, but I, I recognize God does speak
Speaker 2: through other authorities, including the pastor and tradition and reason, um,
Speaker 2: but I never take those and trump the Bible with it.
Speaker 1: What
Speaker 1: do you think, Anthony?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really, I'm actually really thankful. Those are great answers. Um,
Speaker 1: I guess just in my experience, I come from a
Speaker 1: church that, uh, was semi cultish and I didn't realize
Speaker 1: it until I really started studying the word of God
Speaker 1: and the Lord would point out so many different things
Speaker 1: that just weren't lining up with scripture. But now that
Speaker 1: my family and I are in a healthy church, I
Speaker 1: still carry like a slight question when gives life experience.
Speaker 1: And I'm trying to be open because I wanna, I
Speaker 1: don't mean to get emotional. I wanna learn from the Lord,
Speaker 1: but
Speaker 1: I'm just wrestling with that. Yeah. Maybe that pass. So, yeah, that,
Speaker 1: thank you guys
Speaker 1: so much.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and just to encourage you to, I mean,
Speaker 2: I hope there will be healing for you as you're,
Speaker 2: you know, you're in a good Bible teaching church, um,
Speaker 2: and that, you know, just the pain experience, whatever of,
Speaker 2: you know, having been taught things that weren't true and
Speaker 2: maybe harmful or whatever will go away. But at the
Speaker 2: same time,
Speaker 2: Uh, you've learned a valuable lesson that should never go away.
Speaker 2: I don't care how healthy a church is, you should
Speaker 2: never stop comparing things to the word of God and
Speaker 2: any pastor anywhere or or whoever says, hey, start listening
Speaker 2: to my private revelations over and again about that, that's.
Speaker 2: That is a red flag and always will be. So
Speaker 2: I think you've, you've learned a lesson every Christian should. And,
Speaker 2: and ironically, I know Christians have gone to great churches,
Speaker 2: but even great churches can make, you know, maybe not
Speaker 2: primary mistakes, but secondary ones, but they won't even question
Speaker 2: them because they just assume, oh, you're right most of
Speaker 2: the time. Look, anybody, any human is fallible, can make
Speaker 2: a mistake, only the Bible is the infallible inspired word
Speaker 2: of God.
Speaker 1: Anthony, thanks for calling in today on Pastor's Perspective, and
Speaker 1: we are out of time, but we will be back tomorrow.
Speaker 1: So if we didn't get to your question today, write
Speaker 1: it down so you don't forget it, and then call
Speaker 1: us tomorrow between 3 and 4 p.m. Pacific time, and
Speaker 1: we open up the lines about 7 minutes before 3.
Speaker 1: For Pastor Char Broderson of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa and
Speaker 1: Pastor Mike Chaddick of Image Church in San Juan Capistrano.
Speaker 1: I'm Brian Perez. Thanks for listening and thanks for watching
Speaker 1: Pastor's Perspective.