WEBVTT - Pastors' Perspective-10/14/26 0:00:19.070 --> 0:00:23.070 Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, welcome to Pastor's Perspective. 0:00:23.139 --> 0:00:28.229 888-564-6173 is the number to call, and I was giving 0:00:28.229 --> 0:00:30.679 out the phone number out of habit because I've been 0:00:30.679 --> 0:00:33.190 doing it for so long now. I haven't had a 0:00:33.190 --> 0:00:35.550 break in giving the phone number. Well, I have, yeah, 0:00:35.748 --> 0:00:37.989 because Ed Stetzer has not been on the show in 0:00:37.989 --> 0:00:38.489 several months, so 0:00:39.274 --> 0:00:41.314 Today I do not have to give the phone number 0:00:41.313 --> 0:00:44.755 out because Ed is joining us today along with Pastor 0:00:44.754 --> 0:00:48.074 Brian Broderson. Ed is the, uh, dean at the Talbot 0:00:48.075 --> 0:00:51.424 School of Theology at Viola University. Pastor Brian is the 0:00:51.424 --> 0:00:55.955 pastor emeritus at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, and Ed, well, Brian, 0:00:55.994 --> 0:00:58.714 it's always good to see you, but Ed, man, it's 0:00:58.714 --> 0:01:02.124 been a while. It has been quite a few months, 0:01:02.225 --> 0:01:04.634 and I'm glad to be back here and sorry about 0:01:04.635 --> 0:01:06.075 the echo, but it sounds like they fixed that. 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:09.490 But it's, uh, yeah, I'm alive, uh, though that was 0:01:09.490 --> 0:01:12.688 questionable at times, and so I am, I am here 0:01:12.688 --> 0:01:13.969 and good to be here and good to see you. 0:01:14.020 --> 0:01:15.529 I don't remember the phone number, so if you want 0:01:15.530 --> 0:01:16.890 me to say it, I'm gonna fail at it. You 0:01:16.890 --> 0:01:19.369 don't remember the phone number? Well, I mean, it's on 0:01:19.369 --> 0:01:20.859 the wall there. I would look up on the wall. 0:01:21.048 --> 0:01:23.130 I thought you had it memorized. Tell me the phone 0:01:23.130 --> 0:01:24.609 number right now or you say it out loud and 0:01:24.609 --> 0:01:29.890 then I will say it the rest of the show. 888-564-6173. 0:01:30.490 --> 0:01:36.329 Sound familiar? 6173. It does. Once you say it, it's 888-564-6173. Listen, 0:01:36.369 --> 0:01:40.209 we're here on Pastor's Perspective. We got Brian Broderson, Brian Perez. 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:42.369 I'm Ed Stetzer who likes to occasionally take over the 0:01:42.369 --> 0:01:45.679 microphone because, you know, every Saturday, like, who listens to 0:01:45.679 --> 0:01:48.420 Saturday radio though? Let's just be honest. Like I'm on. 0:01:48.979 --> 0:01:52.000 Like the time when basically if you're in your garage 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:54.859 and you have a radio, you turn it on and 0:01:54.859 --> 0:01:57.180 that's me. No drive time, you know, you guys are 0:01:57.180 --> 0:01:58.780 on a drive time, that's when all the cool people listen, 0:01:58.859 --> 0:02:01.339 but not, that's right, I still love you. I still 0:02:01.339 --> 0:02:03.500 love you. People listen to you as they're making pancakes 0:02:03.500 --> 0:02:05.689 on Saturday mornings, that's what I think. That is true, 0:02:05.740 --> 0:02:07.780 or they're, they're working with their tools in their garage, 0:02:07.859 --> 0:02:09.339 you know, I, I can tell the difference between you 0:02:09.339 --> 0:02:11.539 and me. I, I'm a, I'm a very manly man, 0:02:11.619 --> 0:02:14.740 as you know, um, I got a beard like Brian Broderson, 0:02:14.890 --> 0:02:17.020 and if you see us on YouTube, you can actually 0:02:17.020 --> 0:02:17.359 see this. 0:02:17.898 --> 0:02:20.978 Um, but that, that's true. That's true. So I kind 0:02:20.978 --> 0:02:23.499 of have some facial hair going on right now. The 0:02:23.499 --> 0:02:25.219 last time I shaved was when you were on the 0:02:25.219 --> 0:02:28.089 show here, Ed. So, um, it's been a while. No, 0:02:28.178 --> 0:02:30.579 I'm joking. No, it's, it's, it's a joke. No, that's 0:02:30.579 --> 0:02:32.648 a beard. I can't tell. I think, we'll let our 0:02:32.648 --> 0:02:34.779 listeners decide or our viewers decide whether or not it's 0:02:34.779 --> 0:02:37.299 a joke. It's a joke. That's all right. Good to 0:02:37.299 --> 0:02:39.059 have you here, sir. Now, where have you been for 0:02:39.059 --> 0:02:39.978 people who don't know? 0:02:40.799 --> 0:02:43.799 Well, I had a medical crisis, something called an SDAVF. 0:02:43.999 --> 0:02:46.079 Matter of fact, I just met with my, I had 0:02:46.079 --> 0:02:48.600 two doctors this week, so I'm still struggling and trying 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:51.309 to figure out recovery. And my doctor I met with 0:02:51.309 --> 0:02:54.400 today was very helpful, but he said, uh, I've never 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:57.159 I've never seen an SDAVF before, so it's a rare 0:02:57.159 --> 0:02:59.960 spinal thing. And so he was all excited about Googling, 0:03:00.029 --> 0:03:01.639 and every time I see a doctor, they're excited cause 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:03.760 it's like, oh, this, you know, everyday I deal with this, 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:05.760 but for today, I get to have a new thing. 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:08.199 I'd rather not be my new thing, but here we 0:03:08.199 --> 0:03:11.070 are nevertheless. So yeah, so I, spinal thing, 10 days 0:03:11.070 --> 0:03:15.169 in the hospital, uh, Brian Broderson, did you come see me? 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:17.710 I don't think, I don't really remember. I did. You did. 0:03:17.799 --> 0:03:22.359 I did, I did, yes. Ask your wife because I 0:03:22.359 --> 0:03:25.079 was there with Donna and you. Yeah. Here's the irony, 0:03:25.150 --> 0:03:28.040 and this is not all kidding aside, I don't remember 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:31.939 you come seeing me. So it's, uh, there is a gap. 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:33.639 Did you come before or after the surgery? 0:03:34.579 --> 0:03:37.400 Before he was there during the surgery performing the surgery, 0:03:37.559 --> 0:03:40.150 he's not doing there for, so for about anything that 0:03:40.150 --> 0:03:42.919 happened 4 or 5 days before the surgery is a blank, 0:03:43.079 --> 0:03:45.499 is a blank to me, and they, they said that 0:03:45.499 --> 0:03:47.600 they said that probably won't come back, um, you know, 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:50.499 just the, the medication just knocked out my short term. 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:52.760 But thank you for coming to see me. I, I 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:54.400 appreciate that. Did you bring me a, did you bring 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:54.960 me a gift? 0:03:55.449 --> 0:03:57.609 You know, I tried to bring you some in and out, 0:03:57.730 --> 0:04:01.320 but you weren't hungry. You said the hospital was feeding 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:05.180 you extraordinarily. It actually the hospital food is good. That 0:04:05.180 --> 0:04:07.889 was it Hogue Newport Beach is good. Oh, Hoag is awesome. 0:04:08.079 --> 0:04:12.079 Their food is awesome there, yeah, yeah. So, um, yeah, I, 0:04:12.249 --> 0:04:14.689 I was there and, you know, hanging out with you 0:04:14.689 --> 0:04:18.180 and Donna, and I apologize for not remembering. We even, uh, 0:04:18.529 --> 0:04:21.510 we even took a picture and um I. 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:23.790 Might have it in my archive somewhere. I'll send it 0:04:23.790 --> 0:04:25.270 to you if I can. I'll tell you a funny story. 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:27.419 So I had a guy. I made a phone call 0:04:27.599 --> 0:04:30.589 just a couple of days before I went into the hospital, and, uh, 0:04:30.639 --> 0:04:32.400 and this guy emails me a month later and says, Hey, 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:34.818 you never connected me with Joel who runs our demon program. 0:04:35.359 --> 0:04:39.750 So I, um, and that's the D men, not ministry. Yes, not, 0:04:39.919 --> 0:04:43.990 not the demon, um, so, so though, uh, though, so anyway, so, 0:04:44.159 --> 0:04:45.599 so he's back and said, you never connected me with Joel, 0:04:45.669 --> 0:04:47.940 and I said, I, I'm sorry, I don't know what 0:04:47.940 --> 0:04:49.159 you're talking about, and 0:04:49.599 --> 0:04:52.109 And, uh, so he says, we had like a 30-minute conversation. 0:04:52.159 --> 0:04:53.729 He was joking, it was the best conversation ever in 0:04:53.729 --> 0:04:55.419 my life and you don't remember any of it. So, 0:04:55.758 --> 0:04:57.878 but I, I, I was the craziest thing. It is 0:04:57.878 --> 0:05:01.440 just bizarre and it's, uh, you know, and I'm hoping, as, 0:05:01.500 --> 0:05:03.878 as you know, Brian, I got a 30%, I got 0:05:03.878 --> 0:05:05.690 a 30% chance of full recovery. 0:05:06.159 --> 0:05:08.620 Um, but that's a 30% chance. That's what I'm looking 0:05:08.620 --> 0:05:11.139 at now. Like, like I'm working towards it. I just had, 0:05:11.258 --> 0:05:14.299 I had physical therapy again today, and I'm trying to 0:05:14.299 --> 0:05:17.020 recover and, uh, 30% chance, and, but I, you know, 0:05:17.139 --> 0:05:19.739 with the Lord's help, I'm hoping for a full recovery. 0:05:19.799 --> 0:05:22.819 I got a dance at my daughter's wedding in June, 0:05:22.979 --> 0:05:24.740 so I got, I got stuff to do, brother. I 0:05:24.740 --> 0:05:28.020 got stuff to do. So how's, how's your, um, I 0:05:28.020 --> 0:05:30.809 know you still have some pain, right? I mean that's 0:05:30.810 --> 0:05:32.280 why I was at another doctor today, so. 0:05:32.579 --> 0:05:36.440 And I'm, uh, I mean my defining problem is, is 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.939 just pain and it's, it's, uh, you know, it impacts 0:05:39.940 --> 0:05:43.339 the rest, you know, I, I'm, it impacts walking, um. 0:05:44.099 --> 0:05:46.128 But, you know, it, it's just, it's just pain and 0:05:46.128 --> 0:05:49.948 it's like I've never, I've never experienced this level of 0:05:49.948 --> 0:05:52.569 ongoing pain before, but, you know, I'm doing a series 0:05:52.568 --> 0:05:54.210 right now. People wanna follow me on social media. I'm 0:05:54.210 --> 0:05:58.529 doing a 10-day kind of, uh, I'm doing it with Lagos, uh, 0:05:58.690 --> 0:06:01.128 Bible software has a reading plan. You can still join 0:06:01.128 --> 0:06:04.339 if you want, and I'm just posting reflections about suffering. 0:06:04.370 --> 0:06:06.620 I'm learning, the Lord's teaching me. It's actually been a, 0:06:07.169 --> 0:06:09.169 I don't know, someone said the term tender time. It's 0:06:09.169 --> 0:06:10.349 been a tender time. 0:06:11.020 --> 0:06:13.620 With the Lord in the midst of the pain. So I'm, again, 0:06:13.669 --> 0:06:16.139 if you're interested, I'm at, at Ed Stetzer and all 0:06:16.139 --> 0:06:19.490 the social media stuff, and I'm just sharing reflections on 0:06:19.490 --> 0:06:22.568 suffering and, uh, Paul Tripp sent me his book on suffering, 0:06:22.609 --> 0:06:25.009 which has been helpful. Ken Birding, one of my faculty 0:06:25.008 --> 0:06:28.139 at Talbot, has a new book on suffering. Uh, you 0:06:28.139 --> 0:06:30.818 can't go wrong with Johnny Erickson and Tata. But today 0:06:30.818 --> 0:06:32.328 was a good day cause I mean, I, I, I 0:06:32.329 --> 0:06:36.299 met a doctor today who said, I think that I've 0:06:36.299 --> 0:06:39.719 got some solutions, but it's funny cause what he says is, 0:06:40.109 --> 0:06:45.879 You need to stop thinking that you're gonna get better, um, 0:06:46.029 --> 0:06:48.669 anytime soon. If we recover on if this pain goes away, 0:06:48.750 --> 0:06:51.228 it's gonna be next May. So you need to. 0:06:51.448 --> 0:06:52.929 You know, we don't know if it's gonna go away, 0:06:53.289 --> 0:06:55.370 but I had to kind of mentally shift, but it 0:06:55.370 --> 0:06:57.210 was a good meeting. It was a big, it was 0:06:57.210 --> 0:07:01.489 a good meeting. But yeah, now is that, um, is 0:07:01.490 --> 0:07:05.009 the pain, uh, is somehow related to any kind of 0:07:05.008 --> 0:07:08.508 nerve issue? Yes, oh, it's clear, it's, it's all neurological pain. It's, 0:07:08.770 --> 0:07:12.240 which is the craziest pain you've ever had, like stuff hurts, 0:07:12.250 --> 0:07:14.889 like my my calves hurt and they feel like they're swollen, 0:07:14.970 --> 0:07:17.129 they're not swollen, it's just all mental. It's not mental, 0:07:17.169 --> 0:07:17.949 it's neurological. 0:07:18.490 --> 0:07:22.780 Yeah, and it, you know, nerve nerve pain is the 0:07:22.780 --> 0:07:27.460 slowest pain to recede or to heal, you know, nerves 0:07:27.460 --> 0:07:28.460 to heal just take. 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:33.150 Forever it seems so now what about, what about mentally? 0:07:33.190 --> 0:07:35.400 Are you, because you know you were having some little, 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:39.160 little glitches, are you all back, all back mentally? Yeah, yeah, 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:40.599 I probably, that's one of the reasons I wasn't going 0:07:40.599 --> 0:07:42.520 on a call-in show, you know, maybe I was avoiding 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:45.400 pastor's perspective because these are gonna be some hard questions. 0:07:45.639 --> 0:07:49.590 So yeah, yeah. So, but you do remember signing, uh, 0:07:49.599 --> 0:07:52.319 off on my doctoral thesis, right? Yes, I do wanna 0:07:52.319 --> 0:07:54.039 get you to do. I, I, you know, I, I 0:07:54.039 --> 0:07:56.120 had the privilege of educating you for your master's degree 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:56.539 and now. 0:07:57.590 --> 0:08:00.190 I'm don't you have like honorary doctorates from places? You're 0:08:00.190 --> 0:08:05.660 like Brian Broderson. You probably got an honorary doctorates. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, 0:08:05.750 --> 0:08:07.590 I'm too old for that stuff, you know. I just 0:08:07.590 --> 0:08:08.910 want to agree with you. You are too old for that. 0:08:08.979 --> 0:08:10.660 You were too old to do your master's degree with me, 0:08:10.949 --> 0:08:13.789 but I love the fact that you decided to go 0:08:13.789 --> 0:08:16.770 do a master's degree regardless of that. I love that. 0:08:17.109 --> 0:08:17.560 So yeah. 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:20.349 And we had fun. We did. It was a good time. 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:22.439 It's a good time. I got another group, uh, they're 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:25.199 going to Europe and Egypt instead of Israel just because 0:08:25.199 --> 0:08:28.680 it's still a little hot there. And, um, yeah, so it's, it's, 0:08:28.759 --> 0:08:31.270 it's fun to, I love, I love educating groups of 0:08:31.270 --> 0:08:33.359 people and you were, it was a joy to have 0:08:33.359 --> 0:08:33.940 you in class. 0:08:35.419 --> 0:08:38.259 There's an endorsement. Um, I wanna go to Oxford with 0:08:38.259 --> 0:08:39.900 you again one of these days. So why don't you 0:08:39.900 --> 0:08:43.059 go with me and, uh, come with me in, in December. 0:08:43.139 --> 0:08:45.179 I'll have you teach how, you know, when, uh, when 0:08:45.179 --> 0:08:47.259 Brian comes to Oxford just live here on the program, 0:08:47.340 --> 0:08:51.209 he lectures for me. So, um, so Brian has lectured 0:08:51.210 --> 0:08:53.910 at Oxford University. I teach a class there, and, uh, your, 0:08:54.220 --> 0:08:57.420 your lecture was well received last time. You're always welcome back. 0:08:57.499 --> 0:08:58.179 The problem is. 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:01.999 Like I go when you're not there. You're gonna, you're 0:09:01.999 --> 0:09:05.280 in England all the time, but you're, we never overlap 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:08.759 is the, is the problem. So, and you're done, like 0:09:08.759 --> 0:09:11.800 you're done organ, you're with, uh, Creation Fest. Like, is 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:13.780 that like you've started it off, it's on its own now. 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.520 It's on its own, yeah, wow, that's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, 0:09:17.639 --> 0:09:21.100 that's good. OK, I'll, um, I'll think about the Oxford thing. 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:23.559 I'd love to go. I heard, I heard, um. 0:09:24.949 --> 0:09:28.339 Justin Briley, um, I don't, I don't know if you 0:09:28.340 --> 0:09:34.069 listen to Justin's podcast at all, but he did a great, great, great, uh, 0:09:34.230 --> 0:09:37.030 kind of, kind of a debate with Tom Holland and 0:09:37.030 --> 0:09:41.349 Peter J. Williams on the historicity of, you know, the gospels. 0:09:41.429 --> 0:09:45.790 It was fantastic. It was brilliant, um, and both Tom, 0:09:45.949 --> 0:09:49.369 Tom was great. Peter was really extraordinary. Do you know Peter? Have, 0:09:49.550 --> 0:09:50.530 have you had him speak? 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:52.759 I have not had, but I, but I know him, 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:55.719 and I think he's great. Uh, we've hung out, so 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:58.840 what I'd be interested, like Holland is not, I don't 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:01.840 think he identifies as a Christian. Well, he, but he's 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:05.119 sort of close, yeah, I mean, he, he identifies as 0:10:05.119 --> 0:10:08.639 a cultural Christian, but he also, he's closer than that, 0:10:08.759 --> 0:10:11.639 you know, and it's really interesting, uh, because I've read 0:10:11.639 --> 0:10:13.160 a lot of his books and I've followed him for 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:16.110 a long time and I love his history podcast, but, uh, 0:10:16.119 --> 0:10:18.309 you know, listening to him and Peter the other day, 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:19.699 I was really. 0:10:20.319 --> 0:10:25.069 It was really enjoyable and Tom was very, um, yeah, 0:10:25.150 --> 0:10:28.809 I mean, you know, he is, it's almost like he, 0:10:29.069 --> 0:10:35.030 he doesn't quite get like faith in the sense that he, 0:10:35.150 --> 0:10:37.410 it's almost like he thinks that something has to happen 0:10:37.410 --> 0:10:39.988 to you, like a road to Damascus kind of a 0:10:39.989 --> 0:10:41.429 thing that that's how you get. 0:10:42.369 --> 0:10:45.540 Connected with Jesus, you know, you gotta have like an experience. 0:10:45.889 --> 0:10:48.610 He doesn't quite get the just the simple, you know, 0:10:48.809 --> 0:10:51.270 trust thing. I, I think, I mean, he's an historian, man. 0:10:51.369 --> 0:10:54.160 He's an historian, and I, yeah, but he's, he's so, 0:10:54.379 --> 0:10:58.470 he's so close and he's very, um, you know, basically 0:10:58.470 --> 0:11:00.488 he just said, look, I'm a, I'm an all or 0:11:00.489 --> 0:11:01.030 nothing guy. 0:11:01.619 --> 0:11:04.059 So I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go all in. When 0:11:04.059 --> 0:11:06.590 I go, I'm going, let's go, man. Let's get him. 0:11:06.660 --> 0:11:08.969 Let's get him walking with Jesus, man. I wanna like 0:11:08.970 --> 0:11:11.610 open that Bible. But what I was gonna say is 0:11:11.610 --> 0:11:15.220 in November, uh, they're doing a similar thing. Justin's gonna 0:11:15.220 --> 0:11:20.258 host him and NT Wright in a conversation with Molly Worthen. 0:11:20.699 --> 0:11:24.439 So 3 historians, uh, I love Molly. Molly's a friend. 0:11:25.059 --> 0:11:26.929 She's great, you know, she was not a believer. She 0:11:26.929 --> 0:11:29.420 recently came to faith in Christ. She's great. 0:11:29.949 --> 0:11:32.790 And her apostles, her apostles of reason, I mean, she's 0:11:32.790 --> 0:11:35.840 a great historian, so yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, yeah, 0:11:36.350 --> 0:11:38.850 all right, let's go to the phones. Ed, what's that number? 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:40.790 Oh, wait. 0:11:42.249 --> 0:11:48.480 It is 888-564-6173 888-564-6173. This is a little different. So 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:50.520 like when I'm, I'm by a Zoom if people didn't 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:52.730 figure that out, but what's different is, is like I 0:11:52.730 --> 0:11:54.960 don't see what you're about to ask. So it's like, 0:11:54.970 --> 0:11:57.639 it's like all, it's like all in bro. Let's see you. 0:11:57.730 --> 0:12:00.199 I did send you a link. If you click that's 0:12:00.199 --> 0:12:01.929 all new link Roderson, I mean send me the link, but. 0:12:01.985 --> 0:12:04.655 Broderson's, he's always going without a net, man. He's without 0:12:04.655 --> 0:12:07.743 a net. Brian does not use that link. So we'll 0:12:07.744 --> 0:12:09.785 see if, uh, I'm sure you'll be able to do 0:12:09.785 --> 0:12:11.864 it too. But, uh, yeah, here we go. We're gonna 0:12:11.864 --> 0:12:17.215 begin with Johnny who is calling in with a question, uh, 0:12:17.304 --> 0:12:21.944 from Conway, Arkansas. Hey there, Johnny, welcome to Pastor's Perspective. 0:12:23.290 --> 0:12:26.660 Uh, hey, guys. Uh, first of all, uh, Ed, so 0:12:26.670 --> 0:12:29.020 glad to hear that you're, you're doing really well. Uh, 0:12:29.059 --> 0:12:32.020 I've been missing you over at Mariners and missing Mariners 0:12:32.020 --> 0:12:36.090 even more since I moved to Conway. Um, but, uh, 0:12:36.179 --> 0:12:38.259 my question today, uh, 0:12:38.759 --> 0:12:41.369 I'm not sure if you folks are familiar with Torah 0:12:41.369 --> 0:12:46.579 observant Christians or Torahism, as I've heard it called. Um, 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:52.759 my in-laws are Torah observant Christians, and they hold the 0:12:52.759 --> 0:12:58.879 mosaic law. They celebrate the Jewish feasts, and they also 0:12:58.879 --> 0:13:01.170 wear the, the cords that the Jewish men wear. 0:13:01.699 --> 0:13:03.340 Uh, but they don't like being called Jewish and they 0:13:03.340 --> 0:13:06.530 don't like being called Messianic Jew. They just call themselves 0:13:06.530 --> 0:13:09.819 poor observant Christians. I've tried to talk with them about 0:13:09.819 --> 0:13:12.850 like what exactly they believe, but the only thing I 0:13:12.850 --> 0:13:15.078 can kind of glean from what they say is that 0:13:15.078 --> 0:13:19.059 they profess Jesus 100%. He's the way, the truth in life. 0:13:19.540 --> 0:13:21.670 Um, but they just hold on to a lot of 0:13:21.670 --> 0:13:25.780 Jewish customs. And I don't know if it's like a 0:13:25.780 --> 0:13:28.509 legit thing or if it's just something to be kind 0:13:28.509 --> 0:13:31.110 of hoity-toity about. Um, just kind of want to see 0:13:31.110 --> 0:13:32.230 what your guys' thoughts are. 0:13:33.150 --> 0:13:35.020 All right, Brian, what do you know about them? 0:13:36.639 --> 0:13:40.020 Well, I, you know, I haven't heard that, ah, Torah observant, 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.160 but they, they said they don't want to be called 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:46.400 Messianic Jews, but, you know, historically over the last, you know, 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:51.550 40 years or whatever, ah, the Messianic Jewish movement in 0:13:51.550 --> 0:13:54.379 America has been predominantly, 0:13:54.639 --> 0:13:59.589 Um, a space for Gentiles who love Jewish stuff, so 0:13:59.590 --> 0:14:03.628 they go to, you know, Shabbat services and they observe. 0:14:03.989 --> 0:14:06.429 So it sounds like what they're doing is pretty much 0:14:06.429 --> 0:14:10.670 what the Messianic congregation, it's, it's actually it's a little 0:14:10.670 --> 0:14:13.309 more than that. It's a little more than that in that, um. 0:14:14.090 --> 0:14:15.360 You know, cause they don't want to be called Messianic 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.748 Christians because Messianic Christians would say specifically. 0:14:19.889 --> 0:14:23.110 That they're under the new covenant. So I think the 0:14:23.110 --> 0:14:27.050 question is, is, is, uh, is, you know, is they, are, 0:14:27.129 --> 0:14:32.650 are they, um, are Torahs Christians, are they under the 0:14:32.650 --> 0:14:37.040 new covenant or are they still under the old covenant? 0:14:37.129 --> 0:14:39.840 I think that's, you know, that's the big distinction between 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.809 the two, whereas Messianic Judaism is Jewish identity and faith 0:14:42.809 --> 0:14:44.008 and Jesus the Messiah. 0:14:44.350 --> 0:14:46.869 Um, practice, you know, but it's kind of different, you know, 0:14:46.949 --> 0:14:48.840 and I should say I have the largest master's degree 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:51.309 program in Messianic Judaism in the world and at the 0:14:51.309 --> 0:14:53.619 Talbot School of Theology, so very much here. So the 0:14:53.619 --> 0:14:57.650 problem is Torah absorbing Christianity is a broad category, and 0:14:57.670 --> 0:15:02.110 it's focused on obedience to the Mosaic commandments. And so 0:15:02.110 --> 0:15:05.889 the central question is, are Christians under the Mosaic covenant 0:15:06.110 --> 0:15:10.550 or has Christ inaugurated a new covenant that changes the believers' 0:15:10.550 --> 0:15:12.069 relationship to the law? 0:15:12.550 --> 0:15:15.119 And I think that the distinction is, is that many 0:15:15.119 --> 0:15:18.840 Torah observant Christians, I mean, Torah observing Christians sort of implies, 0:15:18.879 --> 0:15:22.800 why are you observing it? Is it under this old, 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:24.600 like is it under the new and the Old Covenant 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:26.920 at the same time? It really depends upon the types 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:30.079 of Torah observant Christians, but that's the question that I 0:15:30.079 --> 0:15:32.280 would ask. And you know, there's a lot here, you know, 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.119 think about the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, you know, 0:15:35.239 --> 0:15:36.559 Colossians 2. 0:15:36.949 --> 0:15:39.749 You know, judging, preserving food festivals, new moons, and Sabbaths. 0:15:39.829 --> 0:15:44.309 I mean, there's a, so I'm nervous because some Torah 0:15:44.309 --> 0:15:50.749 observant Christians are not orthodox, uh, but some are. So 0:15:50.749 --> 0:15:53.710 do they, for example, do they reject the Trinity or 0:15:53.710 --> 0:15:55.270 the full deity of Christ, um. 0:15:55.809 --> 0:16:00.650 How do they treat Paul's teachings? Cause they contradict with them, 0:16:00.730 --> 0:16:03.040 some of their interpretations of the Torah. You know, those 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:05.489 are the questions that, that I would ask. I, when 0:16:05.489 --> 0:16:07.850 I look at this, they're kind of remind me of 0:16:07.850 --> 0:16:12.569 the Ebionites, um, one of the early Christian groups that 0:16:12.569 --> 0:16:15.600 sort of kind of held on to their Judaism, uh, 0:16:15.650 --> 0:16:18.689 and eventually reverted back to Judaism, and the Ebionites sort 0:16:18.689 --> 0:16:19.710 of disappeared from history. 0:16:20.189 --> 0:16:22.270 They're sort of tolerated by the early church, but they 0:16:22.270 --> 0:16:24.749 disappear from history and they revert back into Judaism. So sorry, 0:16:24.819 --> 0:16:27.989 I'm probably a little more, I don't know, negative. I 0:16:27.989 --> 0:16:29.780 don't know what the right term is. Uh, I, I 0:16:29.780 --> 0:16:32.869 wanna know more. I was just, uh, yeah, and I 0:16:32.869 --> 0:16:35.670 was looking at it more from the standpoint of, uh, 0:16:35.749 --> 0:16:38.590 you know, like with the Messianic Jews, and, and he, 0:16:38.660 --> 0:16:41.590 you know, he said his in-laws are very much believers 0:16:41.590 --> 0:16:43.030 in Jesus, right? 0:16:43.770 --> 0:16:45.770 That's fair, and if that's the case, I mean, the 0:16:45.770 --> 0:16:49.290 question is, like Torah observant Christians are believers in Jesus. 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:53.369 The question is, who is this Jesus that they believe in? 0:16:53.449 --> 0:16:55.090 And again, you know, here's the thing, you and I 0:16:55.090 --> 0:16:55.550 both know. 0:16:56.340 --> 0:16:58.780 And you, you know, and Calvary Chapel world. I'm not 0:16:58.780 --> 0:17:00.179 saying it's just, you know, you see some of this 0:17:00.179 --> 0:17:04.119 Calvary Chapel world, but that whole messianic Jewish, Jewish thing, 0:17:04.499 --> 0:17:06.939 there's like, again, like we have a whole master's degree 0:17:06.939 --> 0:17:11.199 program this, but it does attract weird people, um, and 0:17:11.199 --> 0:17:13.800 I mean, can I say that out loud? You just did. 0:17:14.379 --> 0:17:16.859 But I mean, uh, you know it to be true, Broderson. So, 0:17:16.979 --> 0:17:19.479 and Perez, you know too, it does attract people. 0:17:19.979 --> 0:17:22.320 Who sort of end up going down a rabbit hole sometimes. 0:17:22.580 --> 0:17:25.218 And I would just wanna know, like I would say 0:17:25.219 --> 0:17:27.139 if you talk to, uh, Mitch Glazer, I'm gonna be 0:17:27.138 --> 0:17:28.419 in New York City just a couple of weeks with 0:17:28.420 --> 0:17:31.959 our whole, I'm having, you know, Shabbat gathering with them. 0:17:31.969 --> 0:17:35.170 They're at the, uh, Feinberg. It's called the Feinberg Center. 0:17:35.219 --> 0:17:36.770 I mean, don't miss the guy who founded, you know, 0:17:36.820 --> 0:17:38.899 the founding dean of Talbot is Feinberg. It's at the 0:17:38.900 --> 0:17:44.219 Feinberg Center. So, but Messianic Judaism, and they're actually Jews 0:17:44.219 --> 0:17:47.300 who convert to Christianity there, but they actually have to, 0:17:47.459 --> 0:17:49.339 to fence out some of the strangeness. 0:17:49.729 --> 0:17:51.339 And you know, and depending on how far you go, 0:17:51.410 --> 0:17:53.770 there are Yahwists and, you know, there's all, there's all 0:17:53.770 --> 0:17:56.070 kinds of levels to this. So I just wanna know 0:17:56.410 --> 0:17:59.208 what covenant do they think they're under, um, what do 0:17:59.209 --> 0:18:01.729 they believe about Jesus? Do they hold to the, you know, 0:18:01.849 --> 0:18:03.540 Nicene Creed and others? Those are the things that I 0:18:03.540 --> 0:18:04.770 would wanna, wanna know. 0:18:05.859 --> 0:18:06.700 What do you think, Johnny? 0:18:08.609 --> 0:18:10.570 So I think that's all good. I mean, just from 0:18:10.570 --> 0:18:13.040 in their house, I mean, I see a lot of, uh, 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:16.728 a lot of like scriptures from like 1 Corinthians and 0:18:16.729 --> 0:18:19.530 whatnot all over the walls, and, um, so I mean, 0:18:19.570 --> 0:18:20.680 I think, I don't know if they covenant, but it's just, 0:18:23.489 --> 0:18:25.129 I don't know, I get the sense of hoity-toitys going 0:18:25.129 --> 0:18:26.488 on with them. So I think it might be kind 0:18:26.489 --> 0:18:29.330 of something like that where they want to just be apart, 0:18:29.450 --> 0:18:32.089 be like, oh, I'm not evangelical. I left that movement. 0:18:32.170 --> 0:18:34.429 We are now a Torah observant at 0:18:34.430 --> 0:18:35.089 15. 0:18:35.959 --> 0:18:39.280 Brian, well, you know, some, some, there, there are Christians 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:39.719 who 0:18:40.550 --> 0:18:42.800 Ah, OK, there's two sides to this. There's a positive 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:44.920 side where Christians just love all things Jewish, you know, 0:18:45.070 --> 0:18:48.040 so anything Jewish, I mean, Hebrew, if you're gonna learn 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:51.468 a language, you gotta learn Hebrew, that's the heavenly language, and, ah, 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:53.879 you know, they just love all of that stuff. And, 0:18:53.959 --> 0:18:56.190 and that's OK, uh, but you, you know, you have 0:18:56.190 --> 0:18:58.469 to be careful because it's easy to drift over into 0:18:59.790 --> 0:19:04.200 this idea that you can only refer to Jesus as Yeshua, and, 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:08.420 you know, you, you probably need to keep Shabbat, and 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:09.780 once you get over, 0:19:10.879 --> 0:19:14.280 Over into that, then you're gonna, you're gonna get yourself 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:17.320 in trouble, and Ed, you're absolutely right, I have met 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:22.200 the weirdest people in the world, uh, who, you know, well, 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:24.478 and I would say like his family's wee and some 0:19:24.479 --> 0:19:27.439 of the traditional Jewish, you know, the cords and stuff 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:29.159 like that, I mean it does sound like they've kind 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:30.670 of gone down a bit of a rabbit hole, and 0:19:30.670 --> 0:19:33.599